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Re: tie over clef change

From: David Kastrup
Subject: Re: tie over clef change
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:20:06 +0200
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)

Hans Åberg <> writes:

>> On 27 Sep 2020, at 19:31, David Kastrup <> wrote:
>> Hans Åberg <> writes:
>>>> On 26 Sep 2020, at 18:04, Dan Eble <> wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 09:41, Dan Eble <> wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 08:55, Werner LEMBERG <> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite Gould's “incorrect” verdict, here is an example from an old UE
>>>>>> edition of Liszt's “Liebestraum No. 1”, which demonstrates that ties
>>>>>> over clef changes *do* happen and make sense sometimes...
>>>>>> I still think that LilyPond should support that, handling the tie like
>>>>>> a slur in this case.
>>>>> That's a very good example.  It's hard to imagine any reasonable 
>>>>> alternative.
>>>>> What kind of grob would an editor expect here? a Tie because it
>>>>> connects notes of the same pitch, or a Slur because it connects
>>>>> notes at different staff positions? (or something else?)
>>>> I'll answer my own question.  A tie from d♯ to e♭ generates a Tie
>>>> grob, so for consistency, this should be a Tie that looks like a
>>>> slur.
>>> The notes d♯ to e♭ have different pitches in the staff notation
>>> system, which cannot express E12 enharmonic equivalents, so this is
>>> slur. So it should be a slur that looks like slur.
>> We are talking about a piano here.  It has no different keys for d♯ and
>> e♭ and only a single manual.  A slur even across the same pitch will be
>> executed with a separate keypress as opposed to a tie.
> If you look down the thread, there are two different questions, when
> expressing it in the staff notation as is, and when forcing E12
> enharmonic equivalents onto it.
> And not all pianos are tuned in E12, as in the case of meantone
> tunings.

I repeat: It has no different keys for d♯ and e♭ and only a single
manual.  Yes, I know about historical split-key instruments but that is
not what a modern piano composer is writing for.

>> I seem to remember that even in Bach's B minor mass (where E12 was not
>> yet a thing) there is an enharmonic tie (or at least tonal repetition?)
>> in the transition from "Confiteor" to "Et expecto".  I mean, that
>> transition is a tonal center nightmare anyway.
>> I'd have to consult my score to pick out the details.
> It would be of interest.

Lukas has picked out the bar elsewhere in the thread.

David Kastrup

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