Re: Automated custom clef settings for custom staves

[Paul Morris]

David Kastrup wrote
> Paul Morris <

> paul@

> > writes:
> 
>> Currently you have to make changes in the music (the content) for
>> custom clefs to work, whether that's defining a new clef with a
>> non-standard name,
> 
> A definition of a new clef will usually occur outside of the music.

I understand that, but if you then *use* that new clef in the music, then
you can't use that music on a standard staff since the new clef only makes
sense on the custom staff.

Here's an example, imagine you'd like to create some sheet music where the
same music is shown on a traditional staff and also on an alternative staff
(with a chromatic note layout), "back to back" to allow for an easy
comparison.  You'd like to have a single variable that contains the music
(the content) and then two staves, one standard and one customized, and have
that same music in each of them (the presentation).  

Currently clefs are the only real obstacle for this ideal scenario.  You
would have to have separate copies of the music for each staff so that you
can customize the clef (especially the settings for middleCPosition and
clefPosition) for the custom staff.  

So you can get what you want by having two copies of the music, or by using
LilyPond's "tag" feature to include both a standard and a custom clef in the
music for every time a clef is needed, and then tag them separately and use
the tags to select which you want to include and omit for each staff.  


David Kastrup wrote
>> The custom "clef" music function at the top of this thread makes this
>> separation of content and presentation possible when it comes to
>> clefs.
> 
> I don't see that it does anything like that.  It makes some clefs behave
> in surprising/unconsistent manner.

In a full example that wasn't just the tiny example I gave, this function
would indeed make the clefs behave in the way that is needed for the custom
staff.  (But at the same time it would cause them not to work for the
standard staff, hence you can't use both types of staff in the same file if
you use this function.)


David Kastrup wrote
> I don't understand the problem.  I have no clue what you are trying to
> achieve and why.  You want some clefs to print different clefs than
> asked for when in a different staff.  Why?
> 
> How is that a useful feature?  If you want a different clef, why should
> it be named the same?

So that you can use music input (that uses the standard clefs in it) for
both standard and alternative types of staves, as described above.  Sure,
you could create a different clef with a different name and definition, but
then you have to have two copies of the music, or use tags as described
above.  

Many of these alternative notation systems use clefs that are equivalent to
the traditional clefs in terms of when they are used in the music (i.e. they
are used for the same register or pitch range).  Essentially they have their
own version of a treble clef, a bass clef, etc.  That's why I've looked for
a way to be able to redefine what a bass clef and a treble clef mean for a
given custom staff (at the staff level).  That way the musical content can
stay the same, while it just gets a different presentation.  But I
understand that this is  an ideal scenario for me (and maybe not many
others), and that often such scenarios do not make it to realization.

At any rate, I don't want to belabor this discussion, but I did want to try
to answer your questions and make myself more clear.  In a way I think I
have been so consistently amazed by LilyPond's flexibility and
extensibility, that my expectations have risen accordingly.  Now coming
across something that seems like it can't be done in the way that I'd
ideally like to be able to do it... and I still try to find a way to make
that work, even though there are other ways to get the same job done.

So that we're even having a discussion about this is a tribute to LilyPond's
great flexibility and extensibility.  Thanks for all that you and the others
on the dev team do to make LilyPond better and better.

-Paul



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