[Top][All Lists]

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [Qemu-block] [RFC v2] new, node-graph-based fleecing and backup

From: Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy
Subject: Re: [Qemu-block] [RFC v2] new, node-graph-based fleecing and backup
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 17:49:36 +0300
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0

20.08.2018 16:32, Max Reitz wrote:
On 2018-08-20 11:42, Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy wrote:
18.08.2018 00:50, Max Reitz wrote:
On 2018-08-14 19:01, Vladimir Sementsov-Ogievskiy wrote:


For fleecing we need two nodes:

1. fleecing hook. It's a filter which should be inserted on top of active
disk. It's main purpose is handling guest writes by copy-on-write operation,
i.e. it's a substitution for write-notifier in backup job.

2. fleecing cache. It's a target node for COW operations by fleecing-hook.
It also represents a point-in-time snapshot of active disk for the readers.
It's not really COW, it's copy-before-write, isn't it?  It's something
else entirely.  COW is about writing data to an overlay *instead* of
writing it to the backing file.  Ideally, you don't copy anything,
actually.  It's just a side effect that you need to copy things if your
cluster size doesn't happen to match exactly what you're overwriting.
Hmm. I'm not against. But COW term was already used in backup to
describe this.
Bad enough. :-)

So, we agreed about new "CBW" abbreviation? :)

CBW is about copying everything to the overlay, and then leaving it
alone, instead writing the data to the backing file.

I'm not sure how important it is, I just wanted to make a note so we
don't misunderstand what's going on, somehow.

The fleecing hook sounds good to me, but I'm asking myself why we don't
just add that behavior to the backup filter node.  That is, re-implement
backup without before-write notifiers by making the filter node actually
do something (I think there was some reason, but I don't remember).
fleecing don't need any block-job at all, so, I think it is good to have
fleecing filter
to be separate. And then, it should be reused by internal backup.
Sure, but we have backup now.  Throwing it out of the window and
rewriting it just because sounds like a lot of work for not much gain.

Hm, we can call this backup-filter instead of fleecing-hook, what is the
The difference would be that instead of putting it into an entirely new
block driver, you'd move the functionality inside of block/backup.c
(thus relieving backup from having to use the before-write notifiers as
I described above).  That may keep the changes easier to handle.

I do think it'd be cleaner, but the question is, does it really gain you
something?  Aside from not having to start a block job, but I don't
really consider this an issue  (it's not really more difficult to start
a block job than to do block graph manipulation yourself).


Ok, this works, it's an image fleecing scheme without any block jobs.
So this is the goal?  Hm.  How useful is that really?

I suppose technically you could allow blockdev-add'ing a backup filter
node (though only with sync=none) and that would give you the same.
what is backup filter node?
Ah, right...  My mistake.  I thought backup had a filter node like
mirror and commit do.  But it wasn't necessary so far because there was
no permission issue with backup like there was with mirror and commit.

OK, so my idea would have been that basically every block job can be
represented with a filter node that actually performs the work.  We only
need the block job to make it perform in background.

(BDSs can only do work when requested to do so, usually by a parent --
you need a block job if you want them to continuously perform work.)

But that's just my idea, it's not really how things are right now.

So from that POV, having a backup-filter/fleecing-hook that actually
performs the backup work is something I would like -- but again, I don't
know whether it's actually important.

Problems with realization:

1 What to do with hack-permissions-node? What is a true way to implement
something like this? How to tune permissions to avoid this additional node?
Hm, how is that different from what we currently do?  Because the block
job takes care of it?
1. As I understand, we agreed, that it is good to use filter node
instead of write_notifier.
Ah, great.

2. We already have fleecing scheme, when we should create some subgraph
between nodes.
Yes, but how do the permissions work right now, and why wouldn't they
work with your schema?

now it uses backup job, with shared_perm = all for its source and target nodes. (ha, you can look at the picture in "[PATCH v2 0/3] block nodes graph visualization")

3. If we move to filter-node instead of write_notifier, block job is not
actually needed for fleecing, and it is good to drop it from the
fleecing scheme, to simplify it, to make it more clear and transparent.
If that's possible, why not.  But again, I'm not sure whether that's
enough of a reason for the endavour, because whether you start a block
job or do some graph manipulation yourself is not really a difference in

not "or" but "and": in current fleecing scheme we do both graph manipulations and block-job stat/cancel..

Yes, I agree, that there no real benefit in difficulty. I just thing, that if we have filter node which performs "CBW" operations, block-job backup(sync=none) becomes actually empty, it will do nothing.

But it's mostly your call, since I suppose you'd be doing most of the work.

And finally, we will have unified filter-node-based scheme for backup
and fleecing, modular and customisable.

Benefits, or, what can be done:

1. We can implement special Fleecing cache filter driver, which will be a real
cache: it will store some recently written clusters and RAM, it can have a
backing (or file?) qcow2 child, to flush some clusters to the disk, etc. So,
for each cluster of active disk we will have the following characteristics:

- changed (changed in active disk since backup start)
- copy (we need this cluster for fleecing user. For example, in RFC patch all
clusters are "copy", cow_bitmap is initialized to all ones. We can use some
existent bitmap to initialize cow_bitmap, and it will provide an "incremental"
fleecing (for use in incremental backup push or pull)
- cached in RAM
- cached in disk
Would it be possible to implement such a filter driver that could just
be used as a backup target?
for internal backup we need backup-job anyway, and we will be able to
create different schemes.
One of my goals is the scheme, when we store old data from CBW
operations into local cache, when
backup target is remote, relatively slow NBD node. In this case, cache
is backup source, not target.
Sorry, my question was badly worded.  My main point was whether you
could implement the filter driver in such a generic way that it wouldn't
depend on the fleecing-hook.

yes, I want my filter nodes to be self-sufficient entities. However it may be more effective to have some shared data, between them, for example, dirty-bitmaps, specifying drive clusters, to know which clusters are cached, which are changed, etc.

Judging from your answer and from the fact that you proposed calling the
filter node backup-filter and just using it for all backups, I suppose
the answer is "yes".  So that's good.

(Though I didn't quite understand why in your example the cache would be
the backup source, when the target is the slow node...)

cache is a point-in-time view of active disk (actual source) for fleecing. So, we can start backup job to copy data from cache to target.

On top of these characteristics we can implement the following features:

1. COR, we can cache clusters not only on writes but on reads too, if we have
free space in ram-cache (and if not, do not cache at all, don't write to
disk-cache). It may be done like bdrv_write(..., BDRV_REQ_UNNECESARY)
You can do the same with backup by just putting a fast overlay between
source and the backup, if your source is so slow, and then do COR, i.e.:

slow source --> fast overlay --> COR node --> backup filter
How will we check ram-cache size to make COR optional in this scheme?
Yes, well, if you have a caching driver already, I suppose you can just
use that.

You could either write it a bit simpler to only cache on writes and then
put a COR node on top if desired; or you implement the read cache
functionality directly in the node, which may make it a bit more
complicated, but probably also faster.

(I guess you indeed want to go for faster when already writing a RAM
cache driver...)

(I don't really understand what BDRV_REQ_UNNECESSARY is supposed to do,

When we do "CBW", we _must_ save data before guest write, so, we write this data to the cache (or directly to target, like in current approach).
When we do "COR", we _may_ save data to our ram-cache. It's safe to not save data, as we can read it from active disk (data is not changed yet). BDRV_REQ_UNNECESSARY is a proposed interface to write this unnecessary data to the cache: if ram-cache is full, cache will skip this write.

2. Benefit for guest: if cluster is unchanged and ram-cached, we can skip reading
from the devise

3. If needed, we can drop unchanged ram-cached clusters from ram-cache

4. On guest write, if cluster is already cached, we just mark it "changed"

5. Lazy discards: in some setups, discards are not guaranteed to do something,
so, we can at least defer some discards to the end of backup, if ram-cache is

6. We can implement discard operation in fleecing cache, to make cluster
not needed (drop from cache, drop "copy" flag), so further reads of this
cluster will return error. So, fleecing client may read cluster by cluster
and discard them to reduce COW-load of the drive. We even can combine read
and discard into one command, something like "read-once", or it may be a
flag for fleecing-cache, that all reads are "read-once".
That would definitely be possible with a dedicated fleecing backup
target filter (and normal backup).
target-filter schemes will not work for external-backup..
I thought you were talking about what you could do with the node schema
you gave above, i.e. inside of qemu itself.

7. We can provide recommendations, on which clusters should fleecing-client
copy first. Examples:
a. copy ram-cached clusters first (obvious, to unload cache and reduce io
b. copy zero-clusters last (the don't occupy place in cache, so, lets copy
   other clusters first)
c. copy disk-cached clusters list (if we don't care about disk space,
   we can say, that for disk-cached clusters we already have a maximum
   io overhead, so let's copy other clusters first)
d. copy disk-cached clusters with high priority (but after ram-cached) -
   if we don't have enough disk space

So, there is a wide range of possible politics. How to provide these
1. block_status
2. create separate interface
3. internal backup job may access shared fleecing object directly.
Hm, this is a completely different question now.  Sure, extending backup
or mirror (or a future blockdev-copy) would make it easiest for us.  But
then again, if you want to copy data off a point-in-time snapshot of a
volume, you can just use normal backup anyway, right?
right. but how to implement all the features I listed? I see the way to
implement them with help of two special filters. And backup job will be
used anyway (without write-notifiers) for internal backup and will not
be used for external backup (fleecing).
Hm.  So what you want here is a special block driver or at least a
special interface that can give information to an outside tool, namely
the information you listed above.

If you want information about RAM-cached clusters, well, you can only
get that information from the RAM cache driver.  It probably would be
allocation information, do we have any way of getting that out?

It seems you can get all of that (zero information and allocation
information) over NBD.  Would that be enough?

it's a most generic and clean way, but I'm not sure that it will be performance-effective.

So I'd say the purpose of fleecing is that you have an external tool
make use of it.  Since my impression was that you'd just access the
volume externally and wouldn't actually copy all of the data off of it
not quite right. People use fleecing to implement external backup,
managed by their third-party tool, which they want to use instead of
internal backup. And they do copy all the data. I cant describe all the
reasons, but example is custom storage for backup, which external tool
can manage and Qemu can't.
So, fleecing is used for external backups (or pull backups).
Hm, OK.  I understand.

(because that's what you could use the backup job for), I don't think I
can say much here, because my impression seems to have been wrong.

About internal backup:
Of course, we need a job which will copy clusters. But it will be simplified:
So you want to completely rebuild backup based on the fact that you
specifically have fleecing now?
I need several features, which are hard to implement using current scheme.

1. The scheme when we have a local cache as COW target and slow remote
backup target.
How to do it now? Using two backups, one with sync=none... Not sure that
this is right way.
If it works...

(I'd rather build simple building blocks that you can put together than
something complicated that works for a specific solution)

exactly, I want to implement simple building blocks = filter nodes, instead of implementing all the features in backup job.

2. Then, we'll need support for bitmaps in backup (sync=none).
What do you mean by that?  You've written about using bitmaps with
fleecing before, but actually I didn't understand that.

Do you want to expose a bitmap for the external tool so it knows what it
should copy, and then use that bitmap during fleecing, too, because you
know you don't have to save the non-dirty clusters because the backup
tool isn't going to look at them anyway?


In that case, sure, that is just impossible right now, but it doesn't
seem like it needs to be.  Adding dirty bitmap support to sync=none
doesn't seem too hard.  (Or adding it to your schema.)

3. Then,
we'll need a possibility for backup(sync=none) to
not COW clusters, which are already copied to backup, and so on.
Isn't that the same as 2?

We can use one bitmap for 2 and 3, and drop bits from it, when external-tool has read corresponding cluster from nbd-fleecing-export..

If we want a backup-filter anyway, why not to implement some cool
features on top of it?
Sure, but the question is whether you need to rebuild backup for that. :-)

To me, it just sounded a bit wrong to start over from the fleecing side
of things, re-implement all of backup there (effectively), and then
re-implement backup on top of it.

But maybe it is the right way to go.  I can certainly see nothing
absolutely wrong with putting the CBW logic into a backup filter (be it
backup-filter or fleecing-hook), and then it makes sense to just use
that filter node in the backup job.  It's just work, which I don't know
whether it's necessary.  But if you're willing to do it, that's OK.

I don't think that will be any simpler.

I mean, it would make blockdev-copy simpler, because we could
immediately replace backup by mirror, and then we just have mirror,
which would then automatically become blockdev-copy...

But it's not really going to be simpler, because whether you put the
copy-before-write logic into a dedicated block driver, or into the
backup filter driver, doesn't really make it simpler either way.  Well,
adding a new driver always is a bit more complicated, so there's that.
what is the difference between separate filter driver and backup filter
I thought we already had a backup filter node, so you wouldn't have had
to create a new driver in that case.

But we don't, so there really is no difference.  Well, apart from being
able to share state easier when the driver is in the same file as the job.

But if we make it separate - it will be a separate "building block" to be reused in different schemes.

it should not care about guest writes, it copies clusters from a kind of
snapshot which is not changing in time. This job should follow recommendations
from fleecing scheme [7].

What about the target?

We can use separate node as target, and copy from fleecing cache to the target.
If we have only ram-cache, it would be equal to current approach (data is copied
directly to the target, even on COW). If we have both ram- and disk- caches, it's
a cool solution for slow-target: instead of make guest wait for long write to
backup target (when ram-cache is full) we can write to disk-cache which is local
and fast.
Or you backup to a fast overlay over a slow target, and run a live
commit on the side.
I think it will lead to larger io overhead: all clusters will go through
overlay, not only guest-written clusters, for which we did not have time
to copy them..
Well, and it probably makes sense to have some form of RAM-cache driver.
 Then that'd be your fast overlay.

but there no reasons to copy all the data through the cache: we need it only for CBW.

any way, I think it will be good if both schemes will be possible.

Another option is to combine fleecing cache and target somehow (I didn't think
about this really).

Finally, with one - two (three?) special filters we can implement all current
fleecing/backup schemes in unique and very configurable way  and do a lot more
cool features and possibilities.

What do you think?
I think adding a specific fleecing target filter makes sense because you
gave many reasons for interesting new use cases that could emerge from that.

But I think adding a new fleecing-hook driver just means moving the
implementation from backup to that new driver.
But in the same time you say that it's ok to create backup-filter
(instead of write_notifier) and make it insertable by qapi? So, if I
implement it in block/backup, it's ok? Why not do it separately?
Because I thought we had it already.  But we don't.  So feel free to do
it separately. :-)

Ok, that's good :) . Then, I'll try to reuse the filter in backup instead of write-notifiers, and understand do we really need internal state of backup block-job or not.


PS: in background, I have unpublished work, aimed to parallelize backup-job into several coroutines (like it is done for mirror, qemu-img clone cmd). And it's really hard. It creates queues of requests with different priority, to handle CBW requests in common pipeline, it's mostly a rewrite of block/backup. If we split CBW from backup to separate filter-node, backup becomes very simple thing (copy clusters from constant storage) and its parallelization becomes simpler.

I don't say throw the backup away, but I have several ideas, which may alter current approach. They may live in parallel with current backup path, or replace it in future, if they will be more effective.

Best regards,

reply via email to

[Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread]