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Re: [Qemu-devel] VFIO v2 design plan
Re: [Qemu-devel] VFIO v2 design plan
Thu, 01 Sep 2011 14:27:00 -0600
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 14:10 +1000, David Gibson wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 08:51:38AM -0600, Alex Williamson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 17:48 +1000, David Gibson wrote:
> > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 10:24:43PM -0600, Alex Williamson wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 13:04 +1000, David Gibson wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:05:23AM -0600, Alex Williamson wrote:
> > > > > > Once the group is viable, the user may bind the
> > > > > > group to another group, retrieve the iommu fd, or retrieve device
> > > > > > fds.
> > > > > > Internally, each of these operations will result in an iommu domain
> > > > > > being allocated and all of the devices attached to the domain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The purpose of binding groups is to share the iommu domain. Groups
> > > > > > making use of incompatible iommu domains will fail to bind. Groups
> > > > > > making use of different mm's will fail to bind. The vfio driver may
> > > > > > reject some binding based on domain capabilities, but final veto
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > is left to the iommu driver. If a user makes use of a group
> > > > > > independently and later wishes to bind it to another group, all the
> > > > > > device fds and the iommu fd must first be closed. This prevents
> > > > > > using a
> > > > > > stale iommu fd or accessing devices while the iommu is being
> > > > > > switched.
> > > > > > Operations on any group fds of a merged group are performed
> > > > > > globally on
> > > > > > the group (ie. enumerating the devices lists all devices in the
> > > > > > merged
> > > > > > group, retrieving the iommu fd from any group fd results in the
> > > > > > same fd,
> > > > > > device fds from any group can be retrieved from any group fd).
> > > > > > Groups can be merged and unmerged dynamically. Unmerging a group
> > > > > > requires the device fds for the outgoing group are closed. The
> > > > > > iommu fd
> > > > > > will remain persistent for the remaining merged group.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I've said I prefer a persistent group model, rather than this
> > > > > transient group model, but it's not a dealbreaker by itself. How are
> > > > > unmerges specified?
> > > >
> > > > VFIO_GROUP_UNMERGE ioctl taking a group fd parameter.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm also assuming that in this model closing a
> > > > > (bound) group fd will unmerge everything down to atomic groups again.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it will unmerge the closed group down to the atomic group.
> > >
> > > Hrm, not thrilled with the merging semantics, but I can probably live
> > > with them. Still some clarifications, though..
> > >
> > > If you open a group, merge in a bunch of other groups, then re-open
> > > /dev/vfio/NNN for one of the groups mergeed, presumably the new fd
> > > must also see the merged group? So presumably you must only unmerge
> > > everything when all the fds are closed.
> > The device fds for the group to be unmerged must be closed before an
> > unmerge. The iommu fd is tricky. The iommu fd is really the iommu for
> > the merged group, not the individual groups, so it's context stays with
> > the remaining group. Therefore I don't enforce a refcnt on the iommu
> > fd. The usage model I expect is that if a merge works, the user will
> > probably use a single iommu fd for the whole merged group. Maybe that
> > should be enforced?
> I thought I recalled you saying earlier that the iommu fd could not be
> open when merging new groups in. I would expect that also to be true
> when unmerging in that case.
We have to support hotplug. The group-to-be-merged can't be in use (no
open device or iommu fds). To unmerge a group, we only require that no
device fds are in use as the merged-group-iommu may still be in use by
the remaining members.
> > > If you open groups a and b, then merge a (disjoint) bunch of things
> > > into each, then merge b into a, what are the semantics? Wheat about
> > > if you then unmerge b from a - does it just remove the atomic group b,
> > > or everything you merged into b earlier? Or, what happens if you open
> > > group a, merge in some things, then attempt to unmerge a from the
> > > merged group?
> > Simple, don't allow merging and unmerging of merged groups. Merge and
> > unmerge only work on singleton groups.
> Ok, in that case I think we should call it "add" and "remove" rather
> than merge and unmerge.
> > The last case we must support.
> > In that case you just use:
> > ioctl(a.fd, VFIO_GROUP_MERGE, b.fd)
> > ioctl(b.fd, VFIO_GROUP_UNMERGE, a.fd)
> > The groups are peers when merged, so b can remove a as easily as a can
> > remove b. Group b is left with any iommu context setup while
> > merged.
> Um *goes cross-eyed*. So, if you open (atomic) groups a and b, then
> add group b to a, are the two open fds now functionally identical?
> And likewise if you then open either a or b again straight from from
> Except, that the b fd must then retain the fact that it was originally
> for atomic group (b), so that it can be used as a handle for an
> The more I dig into the details of these semantics the more I dislike
Suggest something better. I spent half a day thinking about what vfio
would look like in configfs, it has some very appealing aspects, but
since it doesn't support ioctls we'd still have a chardev interface and
it gets ugly again.
> > > > Beyond unbind, we also need to think about hotplug. If a system had
> > > > multiple hotplug slots below a P2P bridge and a device was added while
> > > > the group is in use, what do we do? Maybe we can somehow disable it or
> > > > mark it for vfio in our bus notifier routines(?).
> > >
> > > That is a very good point. It actually brings into focus a niggling
> > > concern I had about this model where the group becomes vfio usable
> > > once all the devices in it are bound to vfio. Because of the
> > > possibility of hotplug, I think its conceptually more correct to not
> > > treat vfio as just another kernel driver which can bind devices, but a
> > > special state that the whole group goes into atomically. So the
> > > sequence would be:
> > > - Admin asks that a group go into vfio state
> > > - kernel (attempts to) unbind kernel drivers from every device
> > > in the group
> > > - group is marked in vfio/limbo state
> > >
> > > At this point no kernel drivers may bind to anything in the group,
> > > including things that are hotplugged into the group after this initial
> > > sequence.
> > It seems like this is a mode that could only be accessible if the group
> > is opened w/ admin capabilities, I don't think we'd want to let the vfio
> > group chrdev owner be able to do that automatically.
> They have to do something that's just as restrictive automatically.
> If new devices enter an atomic group that's in use by a guest, the
> kernel must not bind drivers to them. I'm just trying to make the
> semantics clearer, than proxying the restrictions by binding a dummy
> driver to everything.
> > I don't know of
> > any other drivers that behave like this, being able to unbind running
> > drivers and pull devices into itself.
> Well, it's not a driver behaving like this, it's an explicit admin
> operation to unbind all drivers from the whole group and put it in a
> state that's suitable for vfio assignment.
> > > > > > If the device fds are not released and
> > > > > > subsequently the iommu fd released as well, vfio will kill the user
> > > > > > process after some delay.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ouch, this seems to me a problematic semantic. Whether the user
> > > > > process survives depends on whether it processes the remove requests
> > > > > fast enough - and a user process could be slowed down by system load
> > > > > or other factors not entirely in its control.
> > > >
> > > > I was assuming "ample" time to process a hot remove, but yes, it's an
> > > > area of concern. I'm not sure how much of a problem it is in practice
> > > > though. Yes you can shoot your VM accidentally as root... don't do
> > > > that.
> > >
> > > They can, but with this semantic they can't know in advance whether
> > > the command is going to kill the VM or not. I can just see a
> > > situation where the admin issues a command to remove the device from
> > > the guest, and usually that goes through the hot guest unplug
> > > mechanisms, the guest keeps running and everything is happy. Then one
> > > time they issue *exactly the same command* and the VM dies, because
> > > the system is running really slow for some reason (huge load, or maybe
> > > someone switched the VM into full emulation for debugging).
> > Not sure how to handle this other than leave a trail of bread crumbs.
> I have no idea what you mean by that.
printk(KERN_WARNING "vfio: killing processes %d (%s) to release device %s.\n",
> > > > > I'd be more comfortable with a model where there was a distinction
> > > > > between a "soft" and "hard" remove. The soft would either simply
> > > > > fail, if the device is in use by vfio, or block indefinitely. The
> > > > > hard would kill the user process without delay. This effectively
> > > > > allows your semantics to be implemented in userspace (soft remove,
> > > > > wait, hard remove) - where it's easier to tweak the policy of how long
> > > > > to wait.
> > > >
> > > > Your first example is essentially what current vfio does now, request
> > > > remove, wait indefinitely and qemu triggers an abort if the guest
> > > > doesn't respond. The trouble with moving this policy to userspace is
> > > > that we're not protecting the host.
> > >
> > > How is the host not protected? Bear in mind that when I say
> > > "userspace" I'm not thinking qemu, I'm thinking the admin equipped
> > > with whatever tools he uses for moving devices between guests. So
> > > they go:
> > > - Please remove this group from the guest
> > > - Waits for an amount of time of their choice
> > > - Decide, crap, the guest is broken
> > > - Hard remove the group from the guest, killing the guest
> > >
> > > It's basic in perfect analogy to the old:
> > > - kill -15
> > > - *drum fingers*
> > > - Damn, it's stuck
> > > - kill -9
> > And what if the remove is initiated by a hardware admin that walks over
> > to the system, and presses the PCI device hot unplug doorbell? It just
> > looks like a driver hang. Thanks,
> Hm, true. How is this case handled on the host side?
Same as if you attempt to unbind the device from the driver, release
callback, iirc. Thanks,