Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH for-3.2 01/11] vhost-user: define conventions for vhost-user backends

[Michael S. Tsirkin]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 10:35:05PM +0400, Marc-André Lureau wrote:
> Hi
> 
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 10:56 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <address@hidden> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 09:29:44AM +0000, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 08:42:41AM +0100, Hoffmann, Gerd wrote:
> > > >   Hi,
> > > >
> > > > > Right. The main issue is that we need to make sure only
> > > > > in-tree devices are supported.
> > > >
> > > > Well, that is under debate right now, see:
> > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2018-11/msg04912.html
> > >
> > > I've previously been against the idea of external plugins for QEMU,
> > > however, that was when the plugin was something that would be dlopen'd
> > > by QEMU. That would cause our internal ABI to be exposed to 3rd parties
> > > which is highly undesirable, even if they were open source to comply
> > > with the license needs.
> > >
> > > When the plugin is a completely isolated process communicating with a
> > > well defined protocol, it is not placing a significant burden on the
> > > QEMU developers' ongoing maintainence, nor has problems with license
> > > compliance. The main problem would come from debugging the combined
> > > system as the external process is essentially a black box from QEMU's
> > > POV. Downstream OS vendors are free to place restrictions on which
> > > backend processes they'd be willing to support with QEMU, and upstream
> > > is under no obligation to debug stuff beyond the QEMU boundary.
> > >
> > > We have already accepted that tradeoff with networking by supporting
> > > vhost-user and have externals impls like DPDK, so I don't see a
> > > compelling reason to try to restrict it for other vhost-user backends.
> >
> > OK seems to be more or less a rough concensus then.
> >
> > I wonder what's the approach wrt migration though.
> 
> The series doesn't take care of migration.
> 
> >
> > Even the compatibility story about vhost-user isn't
> > great, I would like to see something solid before
> > we allow that.
> 
> To allow migration? vhost-user has partial support for migration
> (dirty memory tracking), and there is also "[PATCH v2 for-4.0 0/7]
> vhost-user-blk: Add support for backend reconnecting" - allowing the
> backend to store some state, if I understand correctly, which could be
> leveraged I guess...
> 
> But I don't think we should block this series because migration isn't
> tackled here.
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> .

How about blocking migration for now then?

We need someone to work on a solution for cross version/device
compatibility, vhost net/blk without that is bad enough but at least we
have a feature bits, for random devices it would be very very bad.


> >
> > Are we happy to just block live migration?
> > For sure that's already the case with VFIO.
> >
> >
> > > > > vhost-user by design
> > > > > is for out of tree users. It needn't be hard,
> > > > > maybe it's enough to just make qemu launch these processes
> > > > > as opposed to connecting to them on command line.
> > > >
> > > > Not sure this is a good idea, with security being one of the motivating
> > > > factors to move device emulation to other processes.  When libvirt
> > > > launches the processes it can place them in separate sandboxes ...
> > >
> > > Yep, libvirt already turns on seccomp policies which forbid QEMU from
> > > forking/execing anything, and we have no desire to go backwards here.
> > > Any external processes have to be launched by libvirt ahead of time.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Daniel
> > > --
> > > |: https://berrange.com      -o-    
> > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
> > > |: https://libvirt.org         -o-            
> > > https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
> > > |: https://entangle-photo.org    -o-    
> > > https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Marc-André Lureau