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Re: SEV guest attestation

From: Dov Murik
Subject: Re: SEV guest attestation
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:59:43 +0200
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2

[+cc Tom, Brijesh]

On 25/11/2021 15:42, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 02:44:51PM +0200, Dov Murik wrote:
>> [+cc jejb, tobin, jim, hubertus]
>> On 25/11/2021 9:14, Sergio Lopez wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 06:29:07PM +0000, Dr. David Alan Gilbert wrote:
>>>> * Daniel P. Berrangé (berrange@redhat.com) wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:34:16AM -0500, Tyler Fanelli wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> We recently discussed a way for remote SEV guest attestation through 
>>>>>> QEMU.
>>>>>> My initial approach was to get data needed for attestation through 
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> QMP commands (all of which are already available, so no changes required
>>>>>> there), deriving hashes and certificate data; and collecting all of this
>>>>>> into a new QMP struct (SevLaunchStart, which would include the VM's 
>>>>>> policy,
>>>>>> secret, and GPA) which would need to be upstreamed into QEMU. Once this 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> provided, QEMU would then need to have support for attestation before a 
>>>>>> VM
>>>>>> is started. Upon speaking to Dave about this proposal, he mentioned that
>>>>>> this may not be the best approach, as some situations would render the
>>>>>> attestation unavailable, such as the instance where a VM is running in a
>>>>>> cloud, and a guest owner would like to perform attestation via QMP (a 
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> scenario), yet a cloud provider cannot simply let anyone pass arbitrary 
>>>>>> QMP
>>>>>> commands, as this could be an issue.
>>>>> As a general point, QMP is a low level QEMU implementation detail,
>>>>> which is generally expected to be consumed exclusively on the host
>>>>> by a privileged mgmt layer, which will in turn expose its own higher
>>>>> level APIs to users or other apps. I would not expect to see QMP
>>>>> exposed to anything outside of the privileged host layer.
>>>>> We also use the QAPI protocol for QEMU guest agent commmunication,
>>>>> however, that is a distinct service from QMP on the host. It shares
>>>>> most infra with QMP but has a completely diffent command set. On the
>>>>> host it is not consumed inside QEMU, but instead consumed by a
>>>>> mgmt app like libvirt. 
>>>>>> So I ask, does anyone involved in QEMU's SEV implementation have any 
>>>>>> input
>>>>>> on a quality way to perform guest attestation? If so, I'd be interested.
>>>>> I think what's missing is some clearer illustrations of how this
>>>>> feature is expected to be consumed in some real world application
>>>>> and the use cases we're trying to solve.
>>>>> I'd like to understand how it should fit in with common libvirt
>>>>> applications across the different virtualization management
>>>>> scenarios - eg virsh (command line),  virt-manger (local desktop
>>>>> GUI), cockpit (single host web mgmt), OpenStack (cloud mgmt), etc.
>>>>> And of course any non-traditional virt use cases that might be
>>>>> relevant such as Kata.
>>>> That's still not that clear; I know Alice and Sergio have some ideas
>>>> (cc'd).
>>>> There's also some standardisation efforts (e.g. 
>>>> https://www.potaroo.net/ietf/html/ids-wg-rats.html 
>>>> and https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-00.html
>>>> ) - that I can't claim to fully understand.
>>>> However, there are some themes that are emerging:
>>>>   a) One use is to only allow a VM to access some private data once we
>>>> prove it's the VM we expect running in a secure/confidential system
>>>>   b) (a) normally involves requesting some proof from the VM and then
>>>> providing it some confidential data/a key if it's OK
>>>>   c) RATs splits the problem up:
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-00.html#name-architectural-overview
>>>>     I don't fully understand the split yet, but in principal there are
>>>> at least a few different things:
>>>>   d) The comms layer
>>>>   e) Something that validates the attestation message (i.e. the
>>>> signatures are valid, the hashes all add up etc)
>>>>   f) Something that knows what hashes to expect (i.e. oh that's a RHEL
>>>> 8.4 kernel, or that's a valid kernel command line)
>>>>   g) Something that holds some secrets that can be handed out if e & f
>>>> are happy.
>>>>   There have also been proposals (e.g. Intel HTTPA) for an attestable
>>>> connection after a VM is running; that's probably quite different from
>>>> (g) but still involves (e) & (f).
>>>> In the simpler setups d,e,f,g probably live in one place; but it's not
>>>> clear where they live - for example one scenario says that your cloud
>>>> management layer holds some of them, another says you don't trust your
>>>> cloud management layer and you keep them separate.
>>>> So I think all we're actually interested in at the moment, is (d) and
>>>> (e) and the way for (g) to get the secret back to the guest.
>>>> Unfortunately the comms and the contents of them varies heavily with
>>>> technology; in some you're talking to the qemu/hypervisor (SEV/SEV-ES)
>>>> while in some you're talking to the guest after boot (SEV-SNP/TDX maybe
>>>> SEV-ES in some cases).
>> SEV-ES has pre-launch measurement and secret injection, just like SEV
>> (except that the measurement includes the initial states of all vcpus,
>> that is, their VMSAs.  BTW that means that in order to calculate the
>> measurement the Attestation Server must know exactly how many vcpus are
>> in the VM).
> Does that work with CPU hotplug ? ie cold boot with -smp 4,maxcpus=8
> and some time later try to enable the extra 4 cpus at runtime ?

AFAIK all generations of SEV don't support CPU hotplug. Tom, Brijesh -
is that indeed the case?

I don't know about TDX.


>>>> So my expectation at the moment is libvirt needs to provide a transport
>>>> layer for the comms, to enable an external validator to retrieve the
>>>> measurements from the guest/hypervisor and provide data back if
>>>> necessary.  Once this shakes out a bit, we might want libvirt to be
>>>> able to invoke the validator; however I expect (f) and (g) to be much
>>>> more complex things that don't feel like they belong in libvirt.
>>> We experimented with the attestation flow quite a bit while working on
>>> SEV-ES support for libkrun-tee. One important aspect we noticed quite
>>> early, is that there's more data that's needed to be exchange of top
>>> of the attestation itself.
>>> For instance, even before you start the VM, the management layer in
>>> charge of coordinating the confidential VM launch needs to obtain the
>>> Virtualization TEE capabilities of the Host (SEV-ES vs. SEV-SNP
>>> vs. TDX) and the platform version, to know which features are
>>> available and whether that host is a candidate for running the VM at
>>> all.
>>> With that information, the mgmt layer can build a guest policy (this
>>> is SEV's terminology, but I guess we'll have something similar in
>>> TDX) and feed it to component launching the VMM (libvirt, in this
>>> case).
>>> For SEV-SNP, this is pretty much the end of the story, because the
>>> attestation exchange is driven by an agent inside the guest. Well,
>>> there's also the need to have in the VM a well-known vNIC bridged to a
>>> network that's routed to the Attestation Server, that everyone seems
>>> to consider a given, but to me, from a CSP perspective, looks like
>>> quite a headache. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest this
>>> communication should happen through an alternative channel, such as
>>> vsock, having a proxy on the Host, but I guess that depends on the CSP
>>> infrastructure.
>> If we have an alternative channel (vsock?) and a proxy on the host,
>> maybe we can share parts of the solution between SEV and SNP.
>>> For SEV/SEV-ES, as the attestation happens at the VMM level, there's
>>> still the need to have some interactions with it. As Tyler pointed
>>> out, we basically need to retrieve the measurement and, if valid,
>>> inject the secret. If the measurement isn't valid, the VM must be shut
>>> down immediately.
>>> In libkrun-tee, this operation is driven by the VMM in libkrun, which
>>> contacts the Attestation Server with the measurement and receives the
>>> secret in exchange. I guess for QEMU/libvirt we expect this to be
>>> driven by the upper management layer through a delegated component in
>>> the Host, such as NOVA. In this case, NOVA would need to:
>>>  - Based on the upper management layer info and the Host properties,
>>>    generate a guest policy and use it while generating the compute
>>>    instance XML.
>>>  - Ask libvirt to launch the VM.
>> Launch the VM with -S (suspended; so it doesn't actually begin running
>> guest instructions).
>>>  - Wait for the VM to be in SEV_STATE_LAUNCH_SECRET state *.
>>>  - Retrieve the measurement *.
>> Note that libvirt holds the QMP socket to QEMU.  So whoever fetches the
>> measurement needs either (a) to ask libvirt to it; or (b) to connect to
>> another QMP listening socket for getting the measurement and injecting
>> the secret.
> Libvirt would not be particularly happy with allowing (b) because it
> enables the 3rd parties to change the VM state behind libvirt's back
> in ways that can ultimately confuse its understanding of the state
> of the VM. If there's some task that needs  interaction with a QEMU
> managed by libvirt, we need to expose suitable APIs in libvirt (if
> they don't already exist).
> Regards,
> Daniel

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