From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 02 14:58:29 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C2wmz-0002VZ-2L for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:58:29 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C2wmv-0002VT-EM for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:58:26 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C2wms-0002VH-OQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:58:24 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2wms-0002VE-J3 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:58:22 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.30] (helo=mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2whr-00008C-6Y for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:53:11 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 981781800046; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:53:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-14-227.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.249.227]) by mwinf0107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2362C18000AF; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:53:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C2whi-00028o-PS; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:53:02 +0200 To: caml-list@inria.fr From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:53:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87vfew7bap.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-en@ras.eu.org, demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Demexp-dev] The demexp project is looking for OCaml developers X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:58:26 -0000 Hello, This is a call for developers. In short ======== The demexp project is a free software project (GNU GPL) that aims at making the software needed to start the democratic experience project. The democratic experience is a large scale project of direct democracy. It aims at providing the tools to facilitate the expression of all citizens, to transform this expression into decisions, and to apply this decision. After one year of development, we feel the need of help to reach as soon as possible a working prototype. So we are looking for OCaml developers that would be interested in helping us. Beyond its political objectives, this project is interesting from a computer science point of view because it touches a wide range of subjects, from networking to user interfaces, through cryptography, databases, graphs, logical search systems, etc. Of course, demexp is written in OCaml. Links: http://www.demexp.org http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/demexp More on the democratic experience project ========================================= The democratic experience is a large scale project of direct democracy. It aims at providing the tools to facilitate the expression of all citizens, to transform this expression into decisions, and to apply this decision. In the democratic experience, each participant can submit a question, propose answers, and vote. All winning answers to the votes are gathered into a database that represents the common position of the group. This common position can be used to drive decisions. Thus, the democratic experience is a complete and open tool for direct democracy. It can apply to small groups of people (associations, companies) but also to larger groups (countries, the planet!). For more information: http://www.demexp.org Technical description of the demexp software ============================================ The demexp software is a kind of client-server voting software. The server stores a database of questions and their associated responses and the clients are allowed to vote on those responses. The communication between client and server is made using RPC (thanks to Gerd Stolpmann's RPC package). The server implements a Condorcet voting procedure to resolve votes into taken positions. Demexp is however different of most voting software, because it fulfils the requirements of the democratic experience project. For example, clients are allowed to change their vote at anytime. People can also delegates their vote to another participant. We want to make a good software so we try to adhere to good software engineering practices. For example, the code is developed in literate programming style using Norman Ramsey's noweb tool. Each module has non-regression tests. The versionning tool used is GNU Arch. The main demexp repository is at: dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ The latest source tarball is available at: http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/demexp/latest-src/ You'll find a example of the server source code in literate style at: http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/demexp/demexp-server-book-2004-09-02.pdf The technical website for development is on Savannah: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/demexp (WARNING: the CVS repository on Savannah is NOT up-to-date) The demexp software is licensed under GNU GPL. What is the current state of demexp? ==================================== Demexp is not vaporware. We have started about one year ago the development of the demexp project. However, due to low manpower and the complexity of the software, we have not yet reached a demonstration prototype. At first, we wanted to have a working prototype before calling other people but it appears the task is harder than we expected. Right now, we have implemented on the server: - repository of questions, responses and participants (as OCaml data structures); - condorcet voting; - classification of questions; - networking. On the client side, we have just a set of windows and dialogs in Glade format that compiles into lablgtk2 code. Both are working on Linux. We would like to reach the following objectives: * v0.4: basic client and server; saving of server bases in XML format; * v0.6: handling of delegation, internationalization (of both software and the questions themselves), port to various architectures (Windows, Mac OS X, other Unix); * v0.8: proper handling of security issues, mainly related to vote peculiarities (very hard task!! we're looking for experts) * v1.0: scalability issues, use of real databases, integration of logical search system into the client, etc. There is a lot of interesting issues for the future: replication of bases, information forum, integration of demexp in other softwares, formal proving of algorithms and protocols, ... We are looking for OCaml developers in all areas but we are especially interested by people wanting to develop LablGTK2 software interface. How can I contribute? ===================== Just join the demexp-dev mailing list and let us know in what part you are interested: http://savannah.nongnu.org/mail/?group=demexp If you have further questions, do not hesitate to ask me. We hope to have your help. We have a lot of interesting issues for you. ;) Have a nice day, Yours, david -- on behalf of the democratic experience project -- David Mentré From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 02 22:51:59 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C34BD-0006sR-MX for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:51:59 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C34BC-0006sM-DO for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:51:58 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C34BA-0006sA-Nm for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:51:58 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C34BA-0006s7-Jo for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:51:56 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C3463-0002gN-H5 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:46:40 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp192-107.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net [203.122.192.107]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i832kbHY093803 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:16:37 +0930 (CST) From: skaller To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1094179596.3352.50.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 03 Sep 2004 12:46:37 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Demexp-dev] Tarball X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:51:58 -0000 Latest dev tarball is 87K -- half the size of the previous and stable ones .. I know caml code gets smaller as you develop it ..? -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Sep 04 03:40:12 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C3V9f-0002op-Ue for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:40:11 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C3V9e-0002og-Hq for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:40:10 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C3V9d-0002oU-So for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:40:10 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3V9d-0002oR-OY for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:40:09 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.28] (helo=mwinf0312.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C3V3R-00080f-Rn for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:33:46 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0312.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 411701800078; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:33:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-6-30.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.13.129.30]) by mwinf0312.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 13315180006D; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:33:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C3V3K-0000se-5N; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 09:33:38 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Tarball References: <1094179596.3352.50.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 09:33:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1094179596.3352.50.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "03 Sep 2004 12:46:37 +1000") Message-ID: <878ybqxzcd.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:40:10 -0000 Hello, skaller writes: > Latest dev tarball is 87K -- half the size of the previous and stable > ones .. I know caml code gets smaller as you develop it ..? Three reasons for code size reduction: - for the 0.1/0.2 releases, we used XDR encoding but not the whole RPC mechanism. So our code had part of RPC code of Gerd Stolpmann. Starting from 0.3 branch, the whole RPC mechanism[1] is used and Gerd's RPC library in now an external requirement; - the delegation system is not currently implemented in the server (but was in 0.1/0.2); - there was a skeleton of a graphical client in lablgtk1 and a basic textual client that are no longer present. So part of functionnality is missing but I think we have also a better design that explains this code size reduction. ;) Yours, david [1] Thus we have total compatibility with standard C language RPC and their development tools. -- David Mentré From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 05 14:44:21 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C41zx-0000wz-MC for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:44:21 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C41zv-0000wf-Re for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:44:19 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C41zu-0000wT-4o for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:44:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C41zu-0000wQ-2o for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:44:18 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.28] (helo=mwinf0307.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C41ue-0005LK-RU for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:38:53 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0307.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 3FD8E180005C for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:38:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-173.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.173]) by mwinf0307.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 16EAC18000A2 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:38:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C41ua-0002Rx-U5 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:38:48 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:38:48 +0200 Message-ID: <873c1wpnlz.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] My First Lablgtk2 Application(tm) X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 18:44:20 -0000 Hello, A few news on the development side. [ side note: As I'm currently the unique active developer, I don't post news on this list. You should subscribe or consult demexp-cvs mailing list to know about each code update. I try to make the commit log meaningful. ] I have started active development on a graphical client (hope it will last more than two days :). I'm slowly learning LablGTK2, Glade and OCaml object-oriented stuff, thus (i) development is slow and (ii) don't expect a well written OO code. ;) Right now, there is no much stuff: - you can call the client with -dall-dialogs to have all the (inactive) dialogs opened (I intend to use that for pen & paper usability test); - the client can be quitted and it can save/load its preferences. As usually, all test/comment/patch is welcome. Yours, david -- David Mentré From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 08 15:57:20 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C58ZD-0005RD-TH for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:57:19 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C58ZB-0005OH-Sn for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:57:17 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C58ZA-0005Lr-0q for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:57:17 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C58Z9-0005Lc-Sw for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:57:15 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1008.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C58TU-0003ts-NI for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:51:24 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1008.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 3FD891800040; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:51:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-10-214.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.48.138.214]) by mwinf1008.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 14735180008C; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:51:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C58TM-00018p-Mq; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:51:16 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:51:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87pt4wsfnv.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] How to get through the network an unknown amount of data? X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:57:18 -0000 Hello, At several point of the demexp network protocol, I need to get an a priori unknown amount of data. For example, the list of participants or the list of Questions in the database. It would be stupid to get all the data in one (potentially very big) message. So I'm wondering what would be the best API to do that. One obvious answer would be to use an API similar to Unix API to list files in a directory: - a function start_listing() to start the listing; - a function continue_listing() to have the let's say next 10 items of the listing. However, I'm wondering if such a design would play nicely with OCaml data structures like Hashtbl? Any idea how to stop and restart an iter-like operation on an OCaml Hashtbl.t? Any idea of a better design? Yours, d. -- David Mentré From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 09 08:53:07 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C5OQF-0005jy-Bz for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:53:07 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5OQC-0005jZ-UR for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:53:05 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5OQC-0005jE-23 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:53:04 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5OQB-0005j4-Rr for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:53:03 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5OKF-0007IN-Sb for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:46:56 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp210-32.lns2.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.210.32]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89Ckf4Y053212; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:16:42 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] How to get through the network an unknown amount of data? From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87pt4wsfnv.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87pt4wsfnv.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1094733998.2555.22.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 09 Sep 2004 22:46:39 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:53:05 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 05:51, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello, > > At several point of the demexp network protocol, I need to get an a > priori unknown amount of data. For example, the list of participants or > the list of Questions in the database. > > It would be stupid to get all the data in one (potentially very big) > message. So I'm wondering what would be the best API to do that. > > One obvious answer would be to use an API similar to Unix API to list > files in a directory: > > - a function start_listing() to start the listing; > > - a function continue_listing() to have the let's say next 10 > items of the listing. > > However, I'm wondering if such a design would play nicely with OCaml > data structures like Hashtbl? Any idea how to stop and restart an > iter-like operation on an OCaml Hashtbl.t? > > Any idea of a better design? You may want to look at ExtLib's Enum concept. The standard way to fetch things from a database is that your 'select' request returns a cursor object; that is, an iterator. So you have operations: let it = get_selection in try while true do let data = get_data it in advance it done with End_of_data -> close it This is very similar to the usual file handle idea. And just like file handles, there will typically be some buffering on both the client and server side of the iterator. If you have a GUI displaying a 'window' on this data, you may need to make the cursor thing bidirectional. The effect would be that the client program only needs to explicitly buffer a GUI page of entries. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 09 13:51:01 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C5T4X-0001ji-Im for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:51:01 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5T4W-0001jW-6p for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:51:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5T4U-0001jE-B7 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:50:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5T4U-0001j4-6i for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:50:58 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.23] (helo=mwinf0801.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5Syb-00050r-Bs for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:44:53 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0801.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id B24FD180009C; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:44:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-14-117.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.249.117]) by mwinf0801.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6C88E180007E; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:44:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C5SyU-0001bH-Kb; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:44:46 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] How to get through the network an unknown amount of data? References: <87pt4wsfnv.fsf@linux-france.org> <1094733998.2555.22.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:44:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1094733998.2555.22.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "09 Sep 2004 22:46:39 +1000") Message-ID: <87oekf2v75.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:51:00 -0000 Hello John, skaller writes: >> One obvious answer would be to use an API similar to Unix API to list >> files in a directory: >> >> - a function start_listing() to start the listing; >> >> - a function continue_listing() to have the let's say next 10 >> items of the listing. >> >> However, I'm wondering if such a design would play nicely with OCaml >> data structures like Hashtbl? Any idea how to stop and restart an >> iter-like operation on an OCaml Hashtbl.t? >> >> Any idea of a better design? > > You may want to look at ExtLib's Enum concept. Thanks for the pointer. I'll look at it. > The standard way to fetch things from a database > is that your 'select' request returns a cursor object; > that is, an iterator. So you have operations: > > let it = get_selection in > try while true do > let data = get_data it in > > advance it > done with End_of_data -> > close it Yes, it looks more OCamlish. :) Regarding the network side, I've asked the advice of some colleagues. They advise me to use a simple index-based iterator (so similar to your proposal, but where the iterator is explicit). Needed network API (as seen from client side) : - num_elements = get_number_of_elements(): returns the maximum number of elements; - get_elements_range(index_base, size): returns /size/ elements, starting at /index_base/. the client do a: i := 0 while !i < get_number_of_elements() do el_list = get_elements_range(i, 10) i := i + 10 done The advantages of this approach: - all the context is in the client, the server does not need to maintain state per client; - the degenerated case where the client can only fetch one element at a time is included (size = 1); - this approach is compatible with indexes as seen in real SQL databases. So I'll use this API, except if somebody has a better proposal (with a rationale ;). It remains to code all of that. :) Yours, d. -- David Mentré From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 09 14:07:56 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C5TKu-0006Rl-3f for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:07:56 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5TKr-0006Qj-QA for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:07:54 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5TKq-0006Q5-6D for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:07:53 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5TKq-0006Pv-1l for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:07:52 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5TFE-00080H-KD for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:02:05 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id ECC841800137 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-14-117.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.49.249.117]) by mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3F64D180011B for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C5TFC-0001bl-Jk for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:02:02 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:02:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87zn3z1ftx.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] [Robert Collins] [Help-smalltalk] GNU Arch archive with gnu-smalltalk 2.1.8 X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:07:54 -0000 --=-=-= Hello, Here is a good summary of the use of Arch. It is tailored to gnu smalltalk but is easily adaptable for demexp. Yours, d. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: help-smalltalk-bounces+david.mentre=wanadoo.fr@gnu.org Thu Sep 09 19:09:45 2004 Return-path: Envelope-to: david@localhost Delivery-date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:09:45 +0200 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by morgana with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5RzE-0000hv-Vi for david@localhost; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:41:29 +0200 Received: from pop.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.68] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.5) for david@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:41:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr (mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr) by mwinb0904 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 03:06:58 +0200 X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 2EDDC180011F for <1+wfr400006642b49057d04c3b76e@back09-mail02-02.me-wanadoo.net>; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 03:06:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by mwinf1004.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4DF88180016A for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 03:06:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5DU9-0003zq-IE for david.mentre@wanadoo.fr; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:12:25 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5DU3-0003xN-Lc for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:12:19 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C5DU2-0003wV-Qs for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:12:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5DU2-0003wK-Mj for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:12:18 -0400 Received: from [203.22.251.250] (helo=mg1.works.net.au) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C5DOJ-0008Qv-GJ for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:06:24 -0400 Received: from aardvark.ozdial.net.au (aardvark.ozdial.net.au [203.22.251.121]) by mg1.works.net.au (8.12.8/linuxconf) with ESMTP id i8916ITa001636 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:06:18 +1000 Received: from lifelesswks.robertcollins.net (dsl-156.23.240.220.rns02-kent-syd.dsl.comindico.com.au [220.240.23.156]) by aardvark.ozdial.net.au (8.12.8/linuxconf) with ESMTP id i8916H8W004245 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:06:18 +1000 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (helo=lifelesslap.robertcollins.net ident=Debian-exim) by lifelesswks.robertcollins.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5DQW-0003eM-TN for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:08:40 +1000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] ident=robertc) by lifelesslap.robertcollins.net with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5DOY-00081Y-Sd for help-smalltalk@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:06:38 +1000 From: Robert Collins To: Smalltalk Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:06:38 +1000 X-Gnus-Mail-Source: file:/var/mail/david Message-Id: <1094691998.10830.55.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 1.5.93 X-MG1-Works-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MG1-Works-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MG1-Works-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.285, required 5, BAYES_00 -4.90, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL 0.53, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL 0.09) X-MailScanner-From: robertc@robertcollins.net Subject: [Help-smalltalk] GNU Arch archive with gnu-smalltalk 2.1.8 X-BeenThere: help-smalltalk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users mailing list for the GNU Smalltalk environment List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1610458691==" Sender: help-smalltalk-bounces+david.mentre=wanadoo.fr@gnu.org Errors-To: help-smalltalk-bounces+david.mentre=wanadoo.fr@gnu.org Lines: 151 Xref: morgana list.help-smalltalk:726 --===============1610458691== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-36fv91ijJx6lfb0kqU2H" --=-36fv91ijJx6lfb0kqU2H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For folk here that use arch: robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk is at http://www.squid-cache.org/~robertc/smalltalk/ For folk that don't use arch, here is a n extremly minimal howto for a) getting the code from arch and b) making your own local archive. There is much more documentation at www.gnuarch.org & wiki.gnuarch.org, or #arch on irc.freenode.net. (My nick is lifeless there, if you want me specifically). a) Just getting the code: - install tla (1.2 or newer) - I suggest using a precompiled binary if your platform has them. Debian stable users should look on backports.org, debian sid or sarge users can just aptitude install tla. - setup the environment: $ tla my-id "Your Name " $ mkdir -p ~/arch/revisionlibrary $ tla my-revision-library ~/arch/revisionlibrary $ tla library-config --greedy --sparse ~/arch/revisionlibrary' What this does is sets up a local cache which tla will use. If you move file systems, copy your home dir around or whatever, just rm -rf ~/arch/revisionlibrary and run the two latter commands again. - tell tla where my archive is: $ tla register-archive \ http://www.squid-cache.org/~robertc/smalltalk/ - checkout the devel code $ tla get \ robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--devel--2.1 \ directory-name-to-put-it-in - checkout my hacked up gtk bindings $ tla get \ robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--gtk-bindings--2.1 \ directory-name-to-put-it-in - you can look at what is in my archive easily: $ tla abrowse robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk - you can look at my current aggregate patch (currently includes all the autoconf created files, will be fixing that in a few hours). $ tla delta --diffs \=20 robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--devel--2.1--patch-5 \ robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--gtk-bindings--2.1-- patch-6 (the patch-numbers come from abrowse's output). ok part b), creating your own archive and putting the code in it. This will make a non-gpg signed archive, as I don't know whether you guys have gpg keys etc etc. If you do, let me know, and I 'll send a slightly different set of instructions. - make a place to put archives=20 $ mkdir -p ~/arch/archives - decide on an archive name. The convention is emailaddress--description i.e. joe.bloggs@example.com--smalltalk=20 archive names have to be globally unique - don't use an email address that isn't yours! - make your arch archive $ tla make-archive joe.bloggs@example.com--smalltalk ~/arch/archives/ \ joe.bloggs@example.com--smalltalk The second parameter is the directory to create and put the archive in: I use the archive name as the dir name for convenience. - now put the code from my archive into yours $ tla tag -S robertc@robertcollins.net--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk-- devel--2.1 joe.bloggs@example.com--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--devel--2.1 - checkout your code: $ tla get joe.bloggs@example.com--smalltalk/gnu-smalltalk--devel--2.1 \ directory-name-to-put-it-in - make a change=20 $ cd directory-name.. $ do stuff - see what changes are occuring: $ tla changes [--diffs] - commit the changes $ tla commit -s "I did stuff" oh, and: tla add tla rm tla mv will add remove and move files, retaining history. I'll update the archive to the latest beta code once Paolo uploads that. Cheers, Rob --=20 GPG key available at: . --=-36fv91ijJx6lfb0kqU2H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBBP6yeM4BfeEKYx2ERAi2UAKCMaF5Tg29HB2EEbhTEiPNjJjn1+gCeM1hL CLOOp39jNkdot5+G5Z4KeIQ= =WVj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-36fv91ijJx6lfb0kqU2H-- --===============1610458691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ help-smalltalk mailing list help-smalltalk@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk --===============1610458691==-- --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- David Mentré --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Sep 18 18:13:36 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8nSa-0002Kj-7l for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:13:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8nSY-0002KM-Dn for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:13:34 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8nSX-0002K3-IR for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:13:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8nSX-0002K0-GS for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:13:33 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1007.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8nMe-0003hn-Ug for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:07:29 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1007.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 5A73118000B5 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:07:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-15-177.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.29.177]) by mwinf1007.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3A3E9180009F for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:07:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C8nMb-0001z6-Md for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:07:25 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:07:25 +0200 Message-ID: <87y8j7jko2.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:13:34 -0000 Hello, Latest VIA x86-like processors have cryptographic facilities (physical random number generator and AES encryption). It might be useful as a possible low cost solution to make secure demexp servers: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6107776939.html Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Sep 18 19:20:36 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8oVQ-00024L-HO for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:20:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8oVN-00023B-Up for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:20:34 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8oVL-00021q-FV for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:20:32 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8oVL-00021i-6M for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:20:31 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C8oPV-0003ay-W0 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:14:30 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8INE81M028884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:14:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:24:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: David MENTRE Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities In-Reply-To: <87y8j7jko2.fsf@linux-france.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 23:20:34 -0000 On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello, > > Latest VIA x86-like processors have cryptographic facilities (physical > random number generator and AES encryption). It might be useful as a > possible low cost solution to make secure demexp servers: > > http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6107776939.html > > > Yours, > d. > I wouldn't trust the random number generator. As a source of randomness, yes- but I'd wash them through a cryptographic hash to wash out any biases. It's really easy for biases to creep into hardware RNGs. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Sep 18 20:10:35 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8pHm-00048J-Te for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:10:34 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8pHk-00047v-3F for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:10:32 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8pHj-00047j-I0 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:10:31 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8pHj-00047g-F1 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:10:31 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C8pBs-0000zl-KD for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:04:29 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8J04KwQ022847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:04:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:14:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:10:32 -0000 I'm not sure what the scope of this project is, or what the current design is. So I thought I'd just throw these thoughts at the wall and see what stuck. First off all, the only voting system I'd trust needs paper. The paper ballot is the legal, official ballot. And the voter has to hold the peice of paper- and understand what the paper says! But even given that, there is a lot we can do. The general idea I had was the touch screen system exists simply to print out the ballots. In addition, the computer system can perform a non-binding count. The voter enters the booth, makes his/her selections. Out comes a peice of paper. On the paper is printed his/her votes- in english. If the vote is correct, the stick it into the slot and the vote is recorded. If not, they throw the ballot out and try again. Repeat until they get a ballot they like. Note that the computer should have a precise count of exactly how many votes for Kerry, how many votes for Bush, etc., are in each lockbox. So after the election is done, while the media is still reporting on the non-binding results, the election officials roll dice, or pick cards from a hat, or in some other way select a random statistically signfigant selection of polling machines to recount by hand. The pull the box out, and start counting papers. If the count is off by the least amount, off by one vote, the non-binding results should be thrown out and the entire election recounted. Since which machines will be the sample machines to recount is not choosen until *after* the election, any wannabe vote rigger doesn't know which machines are safe to rig and which aren't. The statistically signifigant requirement means that it is unlikely any widespread rigging, of the sort usefull enough to throw an election, would be highly unlikely to go undetected. The paper ballots themselves could be made very easy to OCR with an obscenely high degree of reliability. First off, you print on the paper alignment marks, which allow you to figure out the paper's orientation no matter what. Second, you use an OCR-friendly font, like the one used for the numbers on the bottom of your checks. Third, there are a limited number of possible strings at any given location. If we OCR a vote and get back "Albert W. Gere Jr., Democrat", that was much more likely a vote for Gore, and not a vote for Bush. We have a lot of redundancy. And, if all else fails, humans can read the ballot. The goal of the computer is to make creating the ballot as easy, foolproof, and quick as possible. For example- color coding the candidates names. If Gore's name was in blue, Bush's name in red, Nader's name in green, etc., it'd be a lot easier for the eye to pick out who they want to vote for. In addition, we can consider icons. What if, beside Gore's name, there was a Democrat Donkey logo, beside Bush's there was a Republican Elephant, etc. Possibly even little thumbnail pictures of the candidates. Note that the literacy requirement drops way down here. There is a known tendency for voters, when picking at random, to pick the first name on the list. So we want to randomize the order of candidates for every voter, to negate any statistical advantage of position. Another idea I like is help screens. For candidates, these would be small, one-page explanations of who they are and why you should vote for them, written by the candidates. For referendums, they should be similiar summaries of why you should vote for/against the referendum, written by parties advocating said position. This would allow the voter in the booth who suddenly went "I have no idea who these candidates are, or what this referendum is about" to be given some clue. I also like the idea of allowing sample ballots to be programmed in. Note that the voter would still be able to go back and override the choices, it'd just be a bunch of default choices. So the voter could go "I want to vote the straight Trotskyist ticket, except I hate who they have running for Dog Catcher, do I want to vote for the other guy." Another idea I had: in addition to the ballot, the voter gets an identical "receipt" to take home. The receipt and the vote is given a 256-bit, cryptographically secure random number as an ID. After the vote is done, all the votes are published on a website somewhere- no names, just receipt ID and what the vote was. The advantage here is that I, the voter, can then verify that a) my vote exists and was counted correctly, and b) the tabulation of votes as put up on the web site matches the tabulation of the votes announced as the result. This allows the average voter to verify the election results. But the anonymity of the vote is still protected- while it easy to go from the individual via the receipt to the id number, there is no way to backtrack and link an id number to a given individual. This could all be done with off the shelf parts. My back of the envelope approximation would be: - a really cheap PC motherboard. We want a PC because we want on-board video, not something you get with most embedded hardware. But we need almost no processor power. VIA would be good, or really cheap Athlons. K6s would work if we could still get them. Or Transmeta. The idea here, however, is cheap as can be. - A touch screen monitor - Some sort of cheapo printer (A receipt printer) - Some bent tin We need someway to know when the user has voted, and some way to make sure the voter only votes once. Those I'm still working on. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 02:34:19 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8vH9-0001dI-LR for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:34:19 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8vH8-0001cQ-7Y for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:34:18 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8vH6-0001cE-7X for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:34:17 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8vH6-0001cB-3t for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:34:16 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8vAf-0003JS-94 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:27:38 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8J6RXOU064475; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:57:34 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095575252.2580.243.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 19 Sep 2004 16:27:32 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 06:34:18 -0000 On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 10:14, Brian Hurt wrote: > I'm not sure what the scope of this project is, or what the current design > is. So I thought I'd just throw these thoughts at the wall and see what > stuck. > > First off all, the only voting system I'd trust needs paper. The paper > ballot is the legal, official ballot. And the voter has to hold the peice > of paper- and understand what the paper says! Nah, Australia will soon offer electronic voting -- fill in the form on a computer terminal in the polling booth. Later, vote from home will be offered. We have more voting than most countries -- voting is compulsory, there are three tiers of government, and 2 of those tiers have two houses which sometimes have separate polls. Also, whilst most people live in cities here, the remaining few cover a large area. Finally, we use preferential voting for reps where, until recently the *only* legal vote requires you number consecutively *every* box on the form. Also the paper based system is easily abused (you can easily vote as someone else, and do so 20 times at different polling booths). The register is now electronic, and AFAIK electronic voting is being implemented. The AEC is very proactive in promoting this technology -- elections cost a huge amount of money and every organisation likes cost savings these days -- and most people hate wasting time going to the booths. We're also techno-freaks: typically adopting new technology faster than most other countries. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 04:16:49 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8wsL-0004Ww-4X for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:16:49 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8wsI-0004UJ-M0 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:16:46 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8wsH-0004TH-In for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:16:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8wsH-0004Sy-Cd for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:16:45 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.27] (helo=mwinf0402.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8wm1-0006h9-AP for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:10:17 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0402.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id B06B8800090; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:10:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-22-95.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.7.95]) by mwinf0402.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 827198000E3; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:10:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C8wlu-0000mX-Hk; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:10:10 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:10:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:24:14 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87hdpuof19.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:16:47 -0000 Hello Brian, Brian Hurt writes: > I wouldn't trust the random number generator. As a source of randomness, > yes- but I'd wash them through a cryptographic hash to wash out any > biases. It's really easy for biases to creep into hardware RNGs. Yes, you have raised a good point. Anyway, before using such generator, I would use tests on generator to evaluate its randomness. And BTW, it is possible that the random generator is not a proper generator based on a physical device like thermal noise. But, in that case, cryptographically hashing them wouldn't help: if the source of the cryptographic hash is predictable, then the hashed value is predictable. That's why having a real source of randomness is important. I said it was a solution to consider, I didn't said it was THE solution. :) And we are far from being at that step yet. :( Yours, d. -- probably not qualified to speak of cryptography -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 05:07:19 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C8xfD-00006G-Oo for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:19 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8xfB-0008Vx-SQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:18 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C8xf8-0008VI-Op for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8xf7-0008VD-O8 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:14 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.25] (helo=mwinf0607.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8xYn-0004h2-Un for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:00:42 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0607.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 454A4180011E; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-22-95.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.7.95]) by mwinf0607.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9671918000FF; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C8xYg-0001PN-D4; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:34 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:14:27 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:07:18 -0000 Hello Brian, Brian Hurt writes: > I'm not sure what the scope of this project is, or what the current design > is. So I thought I'd just throw these thoughts at the wall and see what > stuck. The scope of this project is to make an electronic voting system suitable to the requirements of the democratic experience project. In short: - votes can be modified at any time; - you can delegate your vote to another person; - use Condorcet voting algorithm. You'll find a detailed english description of the project at: http://www.demexp.org/article.php3?id_article=1 So the system we are implementing is pretty different from a classical electronic voting system (with paper trails or not). That's said, we have an interest in latter systems, which are not strictly off topic of this list: - because at one point in the future, if demexp is ever successful, we will have to design physical voting devices; - because you stand of shoulder of giants, i.e. keep the good points of other designs. > First off all, the only voting system I'd trust needs paper. The paper > ballot is the legal, official ballot. And the voter has to hold the peice > of paper- and understand what the paper says! For demexp, the ability to change vote at any time relaxes a lot the need of using paper trails. But, as you, I wouldn't trust a classical voting system without paper trails, for obvious recounting reasons. > But even given that, there is a lot we can do. The general idea I had was > the touch screen system exists simply to print out the ballots. In > addition, the computer system can perform a non-binding count. The voter > enters the booth, makes his/her selections. Out comes a peice of paper. > On the paper is printed his/her votes- in english. If the vote is > correct, the stick it into the slot and the vote is recorded. If not, > they throw the ballot out and try again. Repeat until they get a ballot > they like. Another solution would be to display the paper ballot behind a glass. If the voter likes the ballot, it goes into the voting box, oterwise in the cancel box (for recount of canceld ballots). I think a firm as even made and commercialized such a system. > Note that the computer should have a precise count of exactly how many > votes for Kerry, how many votes for Bush, etc., are in each lockbox. So > after the election is done, while the media is still reporting on the > non-binding results, the election officials roll dice, or pick cards from > a hat, or in some other way select a random statistically signfigant > selection of polling machines to recount by hand. The pull the box out, > and start counting papers. I would apply standard voting procedures here. In france, the voting book of law is about 400 pages long, in tiny characters. I think all is there. The only point to add: "in case of difference between electronic and paper count, the paper count should be taken into account". Beside that, I don't know if a systematic statistical recount sampling is necessary or not. > The paper ballots themselves could be made very easy to OCR with an > obscenely high degree of reliability. First off, you print on the paper > alignment marks, which allow you to figure out the paper's orientation no > matter what. Second, you use an OCR-friendly font, like the one used for > the numbers on the bottom of your checks. Third, there are a limited > number of possible strings at any given location. If we OCR a vote and > get back "Albert W. Gere Jr., Democrat", that was much more likely a vote > for Gore, and not a vote for Bush. We have a lot of redundancy. And, if > all else fails, humans can read the ballot. > > The goal of the computer is to make creating the ballot as easy, > foolproof, and quick as possible. Or you can recount manually, without OCR. After all, if you don't trust a computer to count votes, you won't trust a computer to recognized characters, which is a much more complicated task. > There is a known tendency for voters, when picking at random, to pick the > first name on the list. So we want to randomize the order of candidates > for every voter, to negate any statistical advantage of position. Interesting point. I've never seen it elsewhere. > Another idea I like is help screens. For candidates, these would be > small, one-page explanations of who they are and why you should vote for > them, written by the candidates. For referendums, they should be similiar > summaries of why you should vote for/against the referendum, written by > parties advocating said position. This would allow the voter in the booth > who suddenly went "I have no idea who these candidates are, or what this > referendum is about" to be given some clue. Well, the strong point of democracy is not the vote itself but the the vote *and* the debate before the vote. So the information should be made before the vote and not at vote time. Interestingly, in demexp, for each response to a question there will be a link to an external forum, web site, etc. to feed further debate. > I also like the idea of allowing sample ballots to be programmed in. Note > that the voter would still be able to go back and override the choices, > it'd just be a bunch of default choices. So the voter could go "I want to > vote the straight Trotskyist ticket, except I hate who they have running > for Dog Catcher, do I want to vote for the other guy." I don't like this idea. It's too complicated. What is your semantics of "Trotskyist" ticket. Our French socialists might look communists for Americans while they are more like American Republicans for us. :) > Another idea I had: in addition to the ballot, the voter gets an identical > "receipt" to take home. The receipt and the vote is given a 256-bit, > cryptographically secure random number as an ID. After the vote is done, > all the votes are published on a website somewhere- no names, just receipt > ID and what the vote was. The advantage here is that I, the voter, can > then verify that a) my vote exists and was counted correctly, and b) the > tabulation of votes as put up on the web site matches the tabulation of > the votes announced as the result. Yes, interesting point. The debian voting system is using a similar scheme. In a previous attempt to design a secure voting algorithm for demexp, I used a similar scheme. However, I'm not sure at all I've used it properly. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/demexp-dev/2004-03/msg00015.html And the initial design was lacking important features for us. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/demexp-dev/2004-03/msg00031.html > This could all be done with off the shelf parts. My back of the envelope > approximation would be: > > - a really cheap PC motherboard. We want a PC because we want > on-board video, not something you get with most embedded hardware. But we > need almost no processor power. VIA would be good, or really cheap > Athlons. K6s would work if we could still get them. Or Transmeta. The > idea here, however, is cheap as can be. > > - A touch screen monitor > - Some sort of cheapo printer (A receipt printer) > - Some bent tin You also need to physically put those parts into a proper design. For example, you need to add physical devices to ensure that your voting machine is not tempered during the vote (or at least you can detect a tempering). You also need to make the machine work even in case of lack of electric power. Etc. > We need someway to know when the user has voted, and some way to make sure > the voter only votes once. Those I'm still working on. I'm a strong proponent of formal verification of the machine code. The two free software projects I found interesting in that regard: ACL2 : http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/ to prove Common Lisp programs. I think it is conceivable to make an automatic translator from CL to C. Why & Caduceus : http://why.lri.fr/ to prove properties directly on real C code. A list of free software formal tools: http://gulliver.eu.org/ateliers/fv-tools/fv-tool-list.html The code of demexp is made in OCaml (you probably know that ;) and it is theoretically possible to use the Coq proof assistant to produce proven OCaml code from its proof. So it would be possible to prove part of demexp code. But it would probably be very complicated (conflict resolution in Condorcet voting is quite hairy). Yours, david -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 09:33:54 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C91pB-0003G7-Tc for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:33:54 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C91pA-0003FC-2G for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:33:52 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C91p7-0003ET-Ob for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:33:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C91p7-0003E4-Lm for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:33:49 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C91ib-0004iz-Cq for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:27:05 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8JDQs4Y011564; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:56:56 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 19 Sep 2004 23:26:54 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:33:52 -0000 On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 19:00, David MENTRE wrote: > That's said, we have an interest in latter systems, which are not > strictly off topic of this list: > > - because at one point in the future, if demexp is ever successful, we > will have to design physical voting devices; Not really. I think you're making an assumption that the primary use of electronic voting will be to replace paper techniques used for National Governments and their minions. Other entities also need to make decisions. Companies, SIGs, Open Source software projects -- and new groups will form, once mass ePolitic is as much a reality as mobile phones and eMail. I guess that's still down the track -- but frankly I couldn't care less if the dinosaurs adopt it or not. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 09:56:26 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C92B0-0007yT-7U for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:56:26 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C92Ay-0007wl-7A for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:56:24 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C92Aw-0007v1-Ax for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:56:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C92Aw-0007uj-83 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:56:22 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.29] (helo=mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C924s-0007VK-5J for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:50:06 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 8CE2318000C7; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-22-95.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.7.95]) by mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5C9AF180006C; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C924j-0001aE-S4; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:49:57 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines References: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:49:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "19 Sep 2004 23:26:54 +1000") Message-ID: <877jqqmkqi.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:56:24 -0000 Hello John, skaller writes: > Other entities also need to make decisions. Companies, > SIGs, Open Source software projects -- and new groups > will form, once mass ePolitic is as much a reality > as mobile phones and eMail. Yes, but my point was that even on mobile phones or PDA you need to design properly the vote mechanism (store keys, interact with user, do proper crypto, meaningful random number generator, etc.). So all the time invested in designing secure classical voting machines should be reused by recording how and more importantly why (the rationale) this is done that way. And by the way, we would be very happy if entities used demexp for their decision making procedures. :) Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 18:10:57 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C99tZ-0007Ra-EU for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:10:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C99tX-0007RK-Oz for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:10:55 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C99tW-0007R8-UX for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:10:55 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C99tW-0007Qy-RO for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:10:54 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C99ne-0000u5-KG for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:04:50 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8JM4clB000228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:04:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:14:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: skaller Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <1095575252.2580.243.camel@pelican.wigram> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:10:56 -0000 On 19 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 10:14, Brian Hurt wrote: > > I'm not sure what the scope of this project is, or what the current design > > is. So I thought I'd just throw these thoughts at the wall and see what > > stuck. > > > > First off all, the only voting system I'd trust needs paper. The paper > > ballot is the legal, official ballot. And the voter has to hold the peice > > of paper- and understand what the paper says! > > Nah, Australia will soon offer electronic voting -- fill in > the form on a computer terminal in the polling booth. > Later, vote from home will be offered. We have more > voting than most countries -- voting is compulsory, > there are three tiers of government, and 2 of those > tiers have two houses which sometimes have separate > polls. Also, whilst most people live in cities here, > the remaining few cover a large area. Finally, > we use preferential voting for reps where, until recently > the *only* legal vote requires you number consecutively > *every* box on the form. I have problems with voting from home- security. You don't know who really voted, just that some computer performed some mathematical calculations. Especially with the current state of computer security, I would stake democracy on it. You'd have to show me how to prevent not only zombie votes (that's easy enough), but also DNS poisoning for man in the middle attacks, virii and worms loading up hacked versions of the voting software, etc. Austria is more than large enough to make it worthwhile to put out major effort to corrupt the elections. The biggest problem I have with paperless voting is no recounts. This is why my demand is for paper. And why I demand the official paper ballot be held in the voter's hand at some point in the voting process, in a way that the voter can determine what the vote recorded on the peice of paper is with no technological existance. Paper, locked in secure boxes, is amazingly hard to tamper with. So you've discovered the election has been hacked, and the paperless results aren't correct- what do you do? If you have hardcopy backup, you can resort to counting the ballots- by scanning and OCRing, or even by hand counting. Note that America faces many similiar problems to Australia. I'm not sure which is less populated- the Outback or the Dakotas. I do know there are some big flat empties around these parts. If worst comes to worst, you do mail-in ballots. > > Also the paper based system is easily abused (you can > easily vote as someone else, and do so 20 times > at different polling booths). Here in Minnesota, we have a simple solution to that. You can register to vote at the polling place (provided you have sufficient ID). But when you do, you are required to fill out a form and sign it testifying that you are legal to vote in that district (and no other). Falsifying it falls under the pains and penalties of perjury- lie, and you're going to get familiar with the inside of a cell. Plus this is hard work. Collecting enough false identification (even through ID theft), and then personally shuttling around to all the different polling places to vote. A lot of work, for not a lot of reward. Congratulations- you managed to case 19 fake ballots. Small scale vote tampering I'm not too worried about. It's large scale vote tampering I'm worried about. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 18:23:58 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9A6A-0003K7-Pr for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9A68-0003Js-VQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:57 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9A68-0003JV-4t for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9A68-0003JS-1e for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:56 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9A08-0002QM-RB for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:17:45 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8JMHZFT009857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:17:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:27:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: David MENTRE Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities In-Reply-To: <87hdpuof19.fsf@linux-france.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:23:57 -0000 On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, David MENTRE wrote: > And BTW, it is possible that the random generator is not a proper > generator based on a physical device like thermal noise. But, in that > case, cryptographically hashing them wouldn't help: if the source of the > cryptographic hash is predictable, then the hashed value is > predictable. That's why having a real source of randomness is important. IIRC, they added a delibertly noisy circuit they sample. And then they try to clean up the sample. Note that all I said is that I'd be concerned with bias. In the simple case, this means that a bit is more likely to be (for example) a 1 instead of a 0. This bias may be very small- say, 50.0000001% 1's vr.s 49.9999999% 0's. Or maybe more severe- say 60% 1's and 40% 0's. This would make it easier to figure out what the random source was- certain input numbers become signifigantly more probable than others. You try the probable ones first. But there is still random information there. Even if the number is 70% 1's and 30% 0's, you're still getting (approximately) 0.6 bits of random information per bit (actually, it's a little bit less than this- I'm forgetting the actual formula at the moment). So if you need 256 bits of truely random bits, you'd need to collect 256/0.6 or 427 bits of biased bits, and then hash the value down to 256 bits, "concentrating" the randomness. Personally, I don't think cryptography is going to be the problem area. Well, maybe on the server- although I'd bet DB is going to be more expensive. On the client side, I think a 1MHz 8-bit CPU would have enough HP for what we want. On the client side, the constraints is going be cost, especially cost of the video. Although, if we could find a really cheap PCI video card (we're not using the machines for games), I'd be tempted to go with a cheap PPC or 68K or ARM. All of which I know have PCI bus master capabilities built in. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 19:19:59 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9AyN-0000M5-47 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:19:59 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9AyK-0000LY-IF for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:19:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9AyI-0000Ks-7v for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:19:55 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9AyH-0000KV-VQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:19:54 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9AsF-00016z-3t for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:13:39 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8JNDRlo013374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:13:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: David MENTRE Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:19:57 -0000 On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, David MENTRE wrote: > The scope of this project is to make an electronic voting system > suitable to the requirements of the democratic experience project. One thing you don't make clear: who is our target audience? Are we talking about online preference polling, online community organization (eg Debian), "non-political" votes (eg American Idol), or official political votes? This is a non-trivial question. How much security do we need? That 1 carat diamond ring at the local mall jewelry store needs a lot less security than the Hope Diamond does, despite the fact that they're both diamonds. The amount of security (and paranoia) needed to protect, for example, the United States Presidential election (to pick an example out of the hat) is a very different level of security than we need to protect the Debian board elections, or the selection of MTV's movie of the year. I was thinking solely of official political voting systems- effectively, US Presidential ballots. Events of the last few years have highlighted the problems in this area to me. Note that a system secure enough and paranoid enough that I'd trust it to elect the US President (or any official political position) would be way too paranoid and cumbersome to elect the Debian board, for example. I don't think scaling is possible. > > In short: - votes can be modified at any time; > - you can delegate your vote to another person; > - use Condorcet voting algorithm. Arrow's theorem says that no one voting system is perfect. Here's an example case- the voters have three choices, A, B, and C. 1/3rd of the population (group 1) prefers A over B, and B over C. Another 1/3rd (group 2) prefers B over C, and C over A. The last 1/3rd (group 3) prefers C over A, and A over B. Now, 2/3rds of the population prefers A over B (groups 1 and 3), B over C (groups 1 and 2), and C over A (groups 2 and 3). Who wins? Similiar voting problems exist for all voting systems. It's been proven mathematically. Also, if the target market is official political campaigns, you're going to have to be able to fit the local voting requirements. As such, I don't think I'd lock into Condorcet. > Another solution would be to display the paper ballot behind a glass. If > the voter likes the ballot, it goes into the voting box, oterwise in the > cancel box (for recount of canceld ballots). Why would you ever need to recount canceled ballots? I'd say the alternative- canceled ballots should be destroyed. I'd be tempted to shred them. > > I think a firm as even made and commercialized such a system. Most of the one's I've seen don't come with paper. Or paper comes at such a markup that most places don't bother. See: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/ for the appropriate horror stories. > Beside that, I don't know if a systematic statistical recount sampling > is necessary or not. I'd do a statistical recount just to sanity check the system. Note that you can get a very good sample counting only a few thousand votes in an election with millions of votes. Actually, thinking about it, I'd do half and half. Each party with officials on the ballot gets to pick a machine to be recounted. Then an equal number are picked randomly to be recounted in addition. This way, if a party even suspects the other side was tampering, they can pick the worst example for a recount. > > The goal of the computer is to make creating the ballot as easy, > > foolproof, and quick as possible. > > Or you can recount manually, without OCR. After all, if you don't trust > a computer to count votes, you won't trust a computer to recognized > characters, which is a much more complicated task. True. As I mentioned. > > > There is a known tendency for voters, when picking at random, to pick the > > first name on the list. So we want to randomize the order of candidates > > for every voter, to negate any statistical advantage of position. > > Interesting point. I've never seen it elsewhere. This came up in the California recall. The problem with pre-printed ballots is the cost of doing multiple ballots. If you're showing names on a screen, this is no-cost. > Well, the strong point of democracy is not the vote itself but the the > vote *and* the debate before the vote. So the information should be made > before the vote and not at vote time. I agree. Often it isn't, however- and I'm willing to go on at length as to why this is bad for democracy. It's especially true for "minor" races- most people in the US go into the voting booth with a pretty fair idea of which Presidential candidate they're going to vote for, and a much less clear idea of which judges and county commissioners they are going to vote for. > > Interestingly, in demexp, for each response to a question there will be > a link to an external forum, web site, etc. to feed further debate. Again, what's our market? If it's electing the debian board of directors, this is a good idea. If it's electing the President of the US, it's a bad idea. The polling place I go to has thousands of voters go through it on election day- it's a zoo. I actually want to limit the amount of information they have to read in the booth, to maximize throughput of voters. This is actually an argument against having any candidate information available at all. Plus, you have problems with laws requiring that all campaign material be kept away from the voting booth (in MN, the law is 100 yards- and election judges are issued the official, legal, 100 yard long string). > > > I also like the idea of allowing sample ballots to be programmed in. Note > > that the voter would still be able to go back and override the choices, > > it'd just be a bunch of default choices. So the voter could go "I want to > > vote the straight Trotskyist ticket, except I hate who they have running > > for Dog Catcher, do I want to vote for the other guy." > > I don't like this idea. It's too complicated. What is your semantics of > "Trotskyist" ticket. Our French socialists might look communists for > Americans while they are more like American Republicans for us. :) I picked the name "Trotskyist" just to have a political party no one would think I was endorsing (maybe not). Around here, a lot of organizations issue "sample ballots"- these are just lists of what candidates the organization supports and wants you to vote for. All the political parties have them, but also unions and other groups. We need some way to go back and change your mind, before casting the official ballot. One of the ideas I was playing with was a "running total" on the left hand side of the screen. When you select a candidate or choice, it goes into a dock (probably shrunk). You can then select any vote you've made from the dock to "go back" and choose again. The sample ballots would be pre-programmed into the system, and by choosing a sample ballot, it would "pre-select" various choices for you. You could then, using the standard method, go back and change the choices. > > > Another idea I had: in addition to the ballot, the voter gets an identical > > "receipt" to take home. The receipt and the vote is given a 256-bit, > > cryptographically secure random number as an ID. After the vote is done, > > all the votes are published on a website somewhere- no names, just receipt > > ID and what the vote was. The advantage here is that I, the voter, can > > then verify that a) my vote exists and was counted correctly, and b) the > > tabulation of votes as put up on the web site matches the tabulation of > > the votes announced as the result. Note that the anonymity requires faith that the ID is, in fact, cryptographically secure, and no one can backtrace from the ID to who voted, or even where/when the vote happened. This scheme places less faith in the voting officials, but more faith in the voting machines. > > Yes, interesting point. The debian voting system is using a similar > scheme. > > In a previous attempt to design a secure voting algorithm for demexp, I > used a similar scheme. However, I'm not sure at all I've used it > properly. > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/demexp-dev/2004-03/msg00015.html > > And the initial design was lacking important features for us. > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/demexp-dev/2004-03/msg00031.html I'll take a look at it. I'm not up to cryptographically analyzing a protocol at the moment. > You also need to physically put those parts into a proper design. For > example, you need to add physical devices to ensure that your voting > machine is not tempered during the vote (or at least you can detect a > tempering). You also need to make the machine work even in case of lack > of electric power. Etc. Physical security falls under the bent tin. Electrical power I hadn't thought of- you'd need enough UPS to run the machine for 12 hours. Low power may be as important as low-cost in this case. > > > We need someway to know when the user has voted, and some way to make sure > > the voter only votes once. Those I'm still working on. > > I'm a strong proponent of formal verification of the machine code. Open source software and off the shelf hardware components are sufficient, even for presidential elections. If the software was available, it would be downloaded by "neutral third parties" and rigorously inspected. The problem is that there are enough components to the system- the software we write, the Ocaml compiler, the operating systems, etc.- that formal verification of one part doesn't imply formal verification of all parts. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 19:22:16 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B0Z-0000sA-Ug for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:22:16 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B0X-0000nV-W4 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:22:14 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B0V-0000hz-Jh for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:22:13 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B0V-0000hh-D3 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:22:11 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9Aub-0001KT-MZ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:16:06 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8JNFWiO023737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:15:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:25:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: skaller Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:22:14 -0000 On 19 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 19:00, David MENTRE wrote: > > > That's said, we have an interest in latter systems, which are not > > strictly off topic of this list: > > > > - because at one point in the future, if demexp is ever successful, we > > will have to design physical voting devices; > > Not really. I think you're making an assumption that the primary > use of electronic voting will be to replace paper techniques > used for National Governments and their minions. Yes, I was. > > Other entities also need to make decisions. Companies, > SIGs, Open Source software projects -- and new groups > will form, once mass ePolitic is as much a reality > as mobile phones and eMail. I guess that's still down > the track -- but frankly I couldn't care less if the > dinosaurs adopt it or not. > Hmm. Well, speaking as an American, a secure, open-source, election for "dinosaur" political elections would be really nice. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 19 19:24:46 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B2z-0001o9-UQ for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:24:46 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B2w-0001m6-RU for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:24:43 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B2u-0001k4-Qg for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:24:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9B2u-0001jy-K1 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:24:40 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9Awi-0001gG-FM for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:18:18 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8JNI6BK028759 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:18:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:28:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: skaller Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:24:43 -0000 On 19 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > Other entities also need to make decisions. Companies, > SIGs, Open Source software projects -- and new groups > will form, once mass ePolitic is as much a reality > as mobile phones and eMail. I guess that's still down > the track -- but frankly I couldn't care less if the > dinosaurs adopt it or not. > Sorry, a point I forgot to make: encouraging, and providing the software to support these new communities, is a good thing. I just think we have two different problems here. And I don't think a solution to one is a solution to the other. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 00:34:08 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9FsO-00082G-76 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:34:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9FsM-000823-4A for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:34:06 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9FsL-00081o-5U for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:34:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9FsL-00081Y-29 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:34:05 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9Fly-0007M4-M0 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:27:31 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K4RR4Y016072; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:57:28 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095654447.2580.330.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 20 Sep 2004 14:27:27 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 04:34:06 -0000 On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 08:14, Brian Hurt wrote: > On 19 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > I have problems with voting from home- security. You don't know who > really voted, How is that different from a polling booth? > just that some computer performed some mathematical > calculations. Especially with the current state of computer security, I > would stake democracy on it. If you mean, stake National Government elections on it, sure -- the infrastructure isn't in place. However, people do bank over the Internet -- and most of them probably think their money is a good deal more important than wasting their time voting for some politician that is going to get in anyhow. > You'd have to show me how to prevent [...] and you'd have to show me how to make elections in Iraq and Indonesia fair. The point being -- polling booths and paper aren't foolproof either. In fact they're much easier to stack. BTW: recounting is nonsense in an electronic system. Recounts occur because the validity of votes needs to be checked properly -- scrutineers/counters make mistakes. Computers don't. I would think the *software* should be checked carefully though -- preferably by insisting it is open source. In fact, once votes are registered they could be published so *anyone* can count the votes: the problem isn't counting, its verifying. In Australia this is far worse than the US because we use preferential voting for the Reps. That means if your favourite doesn't get up, you get another choice, and if e doesn't get up, you get another, and so on. This is called distributing preferences. So .. the votes get counted, then if necessary recounted to distribute preferences -- ARGGHGGG. This can take several WEEKS. e what the vote recorded on the peice of paper > is with no technological existance. I share your concern, but point out paper hardly lacks 'technological existence' :) > Note that America faces many similiar problems to Australia. America has a larger economy though. > > Also the paper based system is easily abused (you can > > easily vote as someone else, and do so 20 times > > at different polling booths). > > Here in Minnesota, we have a simple solution to that. You can register to > vote at the polling place (provided you have sufficient ID). But when you > do, you are required to fill out a form and sign it testifying that you > are legal to vote in that district (and no other). Ah, that's interesting. Here your registration is permanent, and you just get crossed off a list. Yes, you need ID. However, almost every single school in the country is a polling booth, and so even for one seat, there can be a LOT of polling booths with your name ready to be crossed off. > Plus this is hard work. Collecting enough false identification (even > through ID theft), and then personally shuttling around to all the > different polling places to vote. A lot of work, for not a lot of reward. > Congratulations- you managed to case 19 fake ballots. Small scale vote > tampering I'm not too worried about. It's large scale vote tampering I'm > worried about. In marginal seats here, the outcome is often decided by a few hundred votes. This often changes the balance of power. For example the current government has control of the Reps, but the Senate is controlled by a minority party which has the balance of power. BTW: the electoral/parliamentary system here sux -- IMHO :) I think the American system is much better, in that the Legislature is separated from the Executive. (However the US Justice system sux even worse than ours :) -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 00:50:00 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9G7k-0003pE-A2 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:50:00 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9G7j-0003p9-9I for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:49:59 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9G7h-0003ox-Lj for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:49:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9G7h-0003ou-I5 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:49:57 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9G1c-0000x6-JC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:43:41 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K4hVOU051763; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:13:32 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095655411.2580.345.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 20 Sep 2004 14:43:31 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 04:49:59 -0000 On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 09:23, Brian Hurt wrote: > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, David MENTRE wrote: > > > The scope of this project is to make an electronic voting system > > suitable to the requirements of the democratic experience project. > > One thing you don't make clear: who is our target audience? Are we > talking about online preference polling, online community organization > (eg Debian), "non-political" votes (eg American Idol), or official > political votes? The project is about the 'democratic experience'. That seems to indicate allowing people to learn what it is like to actually have some political power. This experience may encourage confidence in democracy. It may also lead to informed discussion of how commuities make decisions. There is no such thing as a 'non-political' vote. Community decision making IS politics. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 01:33:11 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9GnX-0006qZ-GY for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:33:11 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9GnV-0006ph-1B for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:33:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9GnT-0006p3-Q5 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:33:08 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9GnT-0006oa-Mz for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:33:07 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9GhX-0006bg-VQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:27:00 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K5QqOU072951; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:56:53 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <877jqqmkqi.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87d60iocp9.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095600414.2580.266.camel@pelican.wigram> <877jqqmkqi.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095658012.2580.388.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 20 Sep 2004 15:26:52 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:33:09 -0000 On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 23:49, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello John, > > skaller writes: > > > Other entities also need to make decisions. Companies, > > SIGs, Open Source software projects -- and new groups > > will form, once mass ePolitic is as much a reality > > as mobile phones and eMail. > > Yes, but my point was that even on mobile phones or PDA you need to > design properly the vote mechanism Indeed, however the emphasis is different. With the voting rules for this project (which I like), a final accurate result isn't nearly as important as: (a) ability have more frequent votes (b) ability to change your opinion (c) ability to submit a topic to be voted on In other words, precision isn't as important as tools that *facilitate* open discussion and decision making. BTW: speaking of Idols -- recently, there was a miscount of Australian Idol votes. They actually had to withdraw the announced outcome on TV, and the CEO of the company actually doing the counting had to explain what went wrong. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 10:22:03 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9P3L-0007Fc-Jl for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:22:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9P3K-0007FV-3p for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:22:02 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9P3H-0007FB-Ey for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:22:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9P3H-0007F1-Au for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:21:59 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9OxE-0000hr-8K for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:15:44 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8KEFa6H021389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:25:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: skaller Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <1095655411.2580.345.camel@pelican.wigram> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:22:02 -0000 On 20 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > There is no such thing as a 'non-political' vote. Community > decision making IS politics. There is a difference between, for example, electing the Debian board of directors, and electing the President of the US. First of all, how valuable is the "prize"? Throwing the election of the Debian BoDs simply isn't worth that much. Throwing a POTUS election is worth billions of dollars to some people. Also, official elections are governed by laws, and (at least around here) provisions in the Constitution. The Debian project has a lot more flexibility in changing how they choose their leaders than the state of Minnesota does. And then there is the question of population density of voters. Minnsota actually has a pretty decent technology economy going (the legacy of CDC and Cray)- so we probably have a pretty decent number of people in town who vote for the Debian BoD. Compared to the number of people in North Dakota who vote for President, however, there is still almost no voter population for the Debian BoD in Minnesota. Plus, while it's plausible the state of Minnesota would spend a few thousand dollars per voting booth, I doubt very much that Debian would. "All elections are the same" is true in the same way that "all computers are Turing machines" is true- true in some theoretical sense, false in most practical senses. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 16:58:07 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9VEd-0004NJ-DQ for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:58:07 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9VEb-0004L6-NX for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:58:05 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9VEZ-0004KS-Lp for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:58:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9VEY-0004KP-5y for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:58:03 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9V8C-0001L1-AQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:51:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KKpI4Y039105; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:21:19 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095713478.2580.750.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 21 Sep 2004 06:51:18 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:58:06 -0000 On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 00:25, Brian Hurt wrote: > On 20 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > > > There is no such thing as a 'non-political' vote. Community > > decision making IS politics. > > There is a difference between, for example, electing the Debian board of > directors, and electing the President of the US. > > First of all, how valuable is the "prize"? Exactly. It makes little difference who is President of USA (or Australia). It won't change anything. The Debian board might. In fact the Debian board is likely to have more impact on my life: for me, even though not currently a Debian user, it has an affect on my serious career-like activities. Whereas USA elections are necessarily just a source of entertainment -- no matter how serious it is, I can't influence it, and no one in power is actually going to do anything sensible. They'll just go on with the same old drivel, lies, and deceit. Its the same here -- just that USA elections are even stupider than ours, and hence more entertaining :) Put it this way -- no politician is going to make more than 10% difference to my income, which is 50% below the poverty line. Debian might make a 1000% difference. There's no comparison: the USA and Australian governments are already inconsequential for me. I don't mean they won't do things that make a difference. For example I can travel to USA now without a visa. That's nice. What I mean is, it doesn't really matter who is in power -- that small change isn't important and would probably have happened anyhow. Please note *some* changes do occur which are very important -- the collapse of the Soviet Union for example. But none of that kind of change is going to happen any time soon in USA or Australia -- we had our big change in 1972 with Gough Whitlam, things aren't bad enough yet for another one, and USA is so conservative it is unlikely to change until it passes out of the Imperialist stage -- which is at least 50 years away. > Plus, while it's plausible the state of > Minnesota would spend a few thousand dollars per voting booth, I doubt > very much that Debian would. Sure -- and they don't need to, they can happily use computer systems instead because they're all technically savvy. > "All elections are the same" is true in the same way that "all computers > are Turing machines" is true- true in some theoretical sense, false in > most practical senses. No dispute. I'm not saying they're all the same, I'm saying its all politics. People value their work for smaller organisations that actually *can* influence. Most would consider it more important than any National Government election. So actually making small scale processes 'more democratic' is probably the path to better large scale management. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 17:22:10 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Vbt-0003tR-PX for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:22:09 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Vbr-0003su-Rd for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:22:07 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Vbq-0003si-5F for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:22:07 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Vbq-0003sf-1O for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:22:06 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9VVm-0005HW-UQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:15:51 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8KLFZhi003950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:25:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: skaller Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <1095713478.2580.750.camel@pelican.wigram> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:22:08 -0000 On 21 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 00:25, Brian Hurt wrote: > > On 20 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > > > > > There is no such thing as a 'non-political' vote. Community > > > decision making IS politics. > > > > There is a difference between, for example, electing the Debian board of > > directors, and electing the President of the US. > > > > First of all, how valuable is the "prize"? > > Exactly. It makes little difference who is President > of USA (or Australia). It won't change anything. Ignoring the cynical "you can't beat city hall" philosophy (side note: you can, it just takes work), the current US President gave billions of US Dollars in no-bid contracts to Halliburton. A different president will almost certainly give said contracts to someone else, or at least open them up for bids (and thus make them less profitable). >From a simple profit and loss perspective (Chicago School of Economics), it's worthwhile to spend tens, even hundreds, of millions of dollars to "rig" the election to protect those no-bid contracts. If you wonder why they don't, there is a fair bit of evidence they already *have*- go read blackboxvoting.org. That 1 carat diamond ring can be very valuable- especially to the girl who just got it as a wedding ring, or the guy who worked six months to buy it for his new wife. More valuable, in many ways, and definately more meaningful, than the Hope Diamond. But the Hope Diamond still needs more security. > Whereas USA elections are necessarily just a source > of entertainment -- no matter how serious it is, > I can't influence it, and no one in power is actually > going to do anything sensible. They'll just go > on with the same old drivel, lies, and deceit. I have more ability to influence it than you do- everywhere I say "US Elections", please read "Austrialian Elections". Same diff. > > Plus, while it's plausible the state of > > Minnesota would spend a few thousand dollars per voting booth, I doubt > > very much that Debian would. > > Sure -- and they don't need to, they can happily use > computer systems instead because they're all technically > savvy. And because it's not worth it for someone to write specialized worms/virii to throw the election. This is what I'm saying: the two voting systems need radically different approaches. And trust me- you could write a worm or virus for Linux, no problem at all. It's harder to do than Windows, you actually have to know something. But give me a few million dollars to hire the right people, and it can be done. Two things to note: I'm not advocating Demexp go one way or the other. Both are worthwhile projects, IMHO. I'm just saying you can't do both. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 18:20:09 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9WW1-0008SF-OC for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:20:09 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9WVz-0008S9-9L for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:20:07 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9WVw-0008Rx-WB for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:20:06 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9WVw-0008Ru-JB for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:20:04 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.169] (helo=postfix3-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9WPd-00050R-C1 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:13:33 -0400 Received: from [82.64.183.130] (lns-th2-12-82-64-183-130.adsl.proxad.net [82.64.183.130]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628681B49B; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:42:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <414F4FB4.9080505@free.fr> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:46:28 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:20:07 -0000 Concerning trust in electronic voting, one should also consider that in the democratic experience project, we expect *a lot* of votes. The citizens are submitting the questions, the citizens are submitting candidate answers, and the citizens vote. Vote can range from general concepts (death penalty, age of majority...) down to smaller issues (which company is going to collect garbage in my village? Should we buld a highway between this city and that one?). It may be plausible that a single voting session is "attacked" when it is very important: if you elect the president of USA with a single electronic voting session, some poeple may want to invest a large amount of energy to try and tamper it, because there is so much at stake. If stakes are "distributed" because of so many issues that are subject to voting, it may be more difficult to tamper. Felix From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 19:21:13 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9XT7-0006Mn-33 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:21:13 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9XT4-0006Mi-Fr for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:21:10 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9XT2-0006MW-NK for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:21:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9XT2-0006MT-Gn for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:21:08 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.169] (helo=postfix3-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9XMk-00058B-Jc for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:14:38 -0400 Received: from [82.64.183.130] (lns-th2-12-82-64-183-130.adsl.proxad.net [82.64.183.130]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D514A849; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:27:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <414F4C52.9090604@free.fr> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:32:02 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:21:11 -0000 Hi Brian, My two cents: >is with no technological existance. Paper, locked in secure boxes, is >amazingly hard to tamper with. > I have to disagree with this. I'm doing magic as a hobby. I went to see votes counting several times, and I had a look at the process. When voting is finished, they take the enveloppes out of the ballot box and put them one hundred at a time in bigger enveloppes that are dispatched betwen the tables for the public to count them. Switching the big enveloppe to another one is actually very easy for someone who knows these kind of tricks. Even switching the ballot box during the voting process can be done with a little preparation, trust me. Tampering is also done before the elections: several elections in Paris where tampered by creating "fake" voters (that's how our current president got elected mayor in the eighties there). Florida 2000 elections in US where tampered by "cleaning" the voting lists abusively, with dramatical consequences. I think the point is not that paper elections are safe, it's just that people *trust* them, and that's enough. It worked pretty well, so they think it will keep working in the future. Actually, they trust it so much that even when they learn later that it was tampered, they do not make a big fuss about it! People have to trust electronic voting. And that's harder because technical knowledge of computer stuf is not that common. I have the personnal feeling that it will be easier to make electronic voting secure than to convice people that it really is... Cheers, Felix From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 22:32:41 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9aSP-0002Y1-JN for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:32:41 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9aSN-0002XT-KV for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:32:39 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9aSM-0002Wn-3L for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:32:38 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9aSL-0002Wd-Uv for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:32:38 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9aMO-0005Zn-Ga for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:26:28 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8L2QKVR021913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:26:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:36:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?= Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <414F4C52.9090604@free.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by herd.plethora.net id i8L2QKVR021913 Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:32:39 -0000 On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, F=E9lix wrote: > I have to disagree with this. I'm doing magic as a hobby. I went to see > votes counting several times, and I had a look at the process. When > voting is finished, they take the enveloppes out of the ballot box and > put them one hundred at a time in bigger enveloppes that are dispatched > betwen the tables for the public to count them. Switching the big > enveloppe to another one is actually very easy for someone who knows > these kind of tricks. Even switching the ballot box during the voting > process can be done with a little preparation, trust me. The next big city over is Chicago- trust me, I'm well aware how vote=20 corruption works. But to tamper with the paper votes, you have to get access to the physica= l votes. Doing it on a wide-scale basis, wide-scale enough to seriously affect the election, is hard work. It's hard work just to move that amount of paper around, forget slight of hand. And you need to make sure that no one else knows stage magic either. Small corruptions are=20 certainly possible. Large corruptions are a problem. The big-time machines are more or less above board in their corruption-=20 Chicago under Daley, Boston under the Irish, New York under Boss Tweed,=20 every knew the elections were rigged. You can't defend against wide=20 spread, unopposed corruption. The problem I have with pure electronic voting is that one person, sittin= g in a basement in Yugoslavia (or in a cubical at Diebold) could rig an entire election, without the physical effort and risk of moving large piles of paper around. > I think the point is not that paper elections are safe, it's just that > people *trust* them, and that's enough. It worked pretty well, so they > think it will keep working in the future. Actually, they trust it so > much that even when they learn later that it was tampered, they do not > make a big fuss about it! >=20 > People have to trust electronic voting. And that's harder because > technical knowledge of computer stuf is not that common. I have the > personnal feeling that it will be easier to make electronic voting > secure than to convice people that it really is... It's my knowledge of how computers are programmed which makes me not trus= t=20 electronic voting. =20 --=20 "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford=20 Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Sep 20 23:24:11 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9bGE-00050Y-RM for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:24:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9bGD-00050T-0D for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:24:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9bGC-00050G-Ao for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:24:08 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9bGC-00050D-7V for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:24:08 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9bAG-0003P8-L9 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:18:01 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8L3Hqmg021636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:17:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:28:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?= Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines In-Reply-To: <414F4FB4.9080505@free.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by herd.plethora.net id i8L3Hqmg021636 Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:24:09 -0000 On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, F=E9lix wrote: >=20 > Concerning trust in electronic voting, one should also consider that > in the democratic experience project, we expect *a lot* of votes. > The citizens are submitting the questions, the citizens are submitting > candidate answers, and the citizens vote. Vote can range from general > concepts (death penalty, age of majority...) down to smaller issues > (which company is going to collect garbage in my village? Should we bul= d > a highway between this city and that one?). In the US we're not actually a true democracy, we're a republic. The=20 voters don't make the decisions, they choose the people to make the=20 decisions- what company hauls away the garbage, wether there is a highway= =20 between this city and that city, wether we have the death penalty, the ag= e=20 of majority, etc., are decided by the people we elect. >=20 > It may be plausible that a single voting session is "attacked" when it > is very important: if you elect the president of USA with a single > electronic voting session, some poeple may want to invest a large > amount of energy to try and tamper it, because there is so much at > stake. If stakes are "distributed" because of so many issues that > are subject to voting, it may be more difficult to tamper. At least in the US, when and how we decide who's the President, including= =20 such kludges as the electoral college, is determined by the Constitution.= =20 You'd need a constitutional admendment to change it. You can do a google= =20 search for the precise rules on getting an admendment through, but=20 basically it ain't going to happen. That being said, the idea of a technological aide to decision making processes within online communities strikes me as being a deeply interesting project. Ignore electing presidents and school boards for a minute. Consider a project like Linux, or Apache. Or Ocaml. Currently, most online communities run along one of two lines: 1) total anarchy, or 2) friendly dictator. The classic dichotomy from Machiavelli- the true Frankish state, and the Turkish state. A very few communities have gotte= n beyond it. But the community as a whole needs ways to make decisions. Do we include this patch, or that patch? This package or that package? Do we do thing= s this way, or that way? Most online communities are the Turkish model- they have one (or a small number) of non-elected dictators with final say and absolute power- Linus Torvalds for Linux, for example. The Project Dictator (or one of his trusted lietenants- how do you become a trusted LT? The Dictator makes you one) makes all decisions. Is there a way to=20 make the decision making process more democratic? This applies to online communities not centered around programming as=20 well. For example, many blogs have become de-facto online communities as= =20 well. Two examples of this are DailyKos and the Free Republic. These=20 communities need to make decisions as well- is this person a troll and=20 should he be banned? Which candidates should we back and encourage our=20 members to contribute to? I'm a member of an online stock-club. We need= =20 to make decisions as well- do we buy this stock? Sell that one? Switch=20 brokerages? Even online communities that have more structured social systems than pur= e=20 anarchy and friendly dictators have at most an adhoc method of collecting= =20 votes. They're generally "secure" in that it's not worth it to rig the=20 vote. But that doesn't mean the method really is secure, nor is it=20 optimal- primarily because it's not worth it for any *one* community to=20 put the time and effort in to develop a better system. Were a better=20 system already existing, that fit their needs, they'd probably be incline= d=20 to adopt it. This is an interesting and usefull project. In many ways, more=20 interesting and usefull than the voting machine project my earlier=20 comments were aimed at. --=20 "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford=20 Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 02:51:45 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9eV7-0005mX-HI for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:51:45 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9eV4-0005mG-HB for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:51:42 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9eV2-0005la-97 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:51:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9eV2-0005lX-3l for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:51:40 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9eOd-00053o-4U for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:45:04 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8L6ii4Y001557; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:14:55 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095749084.2580.777.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 21 Sep 2004 16:44:44 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:51:43 -0000 On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 07:25, Brian Hurt wrote: > On 21 Sep 2004, skaller wrote: > > I have more ability to influence it than you do- everywhere I say "US > Elections", please read "Austrialian Elections". Same diff. I live in a safe Labour seat. I have no say. Only voters in marginal seats have a say, and they get to choose between two people once every few years who also don't have any say. [Party members here must follow the party line or get expelled from their party] That isn't democracy. I don't have any desire to appoint an idiot to represent me, whose primary attribute is 'popularity'. I'd rather make decisions myself, or appoint a proxy of my choice. I can do that with demexp project. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 03:09:22 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9emA-00012z-6d for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:09:22 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9em8-00012L-6d for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:09:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9em3-000112-0I for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:09:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9em2-00010z-UC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:09:14 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9eg3-0007bS-4H for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:03:04 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8L72a4Y009822; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:32:47 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines From: skaller To: Brian Hurt In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095750156.2580.793.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 21 Sep 2004 17:02:36 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:09:20 -0000 On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 13:28, Brian Hurt wrote: > But the community as a whole needs ways to make decisions. Do we include > this patch, or that patch? Yep. You can see Python, where it went from dictator, to at least a process for managing details (PEPs). I also worked in a (ISO committee) process I favour strongly over majority rule (which will never be democratic): consensus. Consensus formation is a good thing IMHO. It requires discussion, and the outcome isn't law but protocol. > This is an interesting and usefull project. In many ways, more > interesting and usefull than the voting machine project my earlier > comments were aimed at. Yes. My feeling is that the powers that be will ignore what you think when it comes time to have electronic voting. You have no hope of changing things just by making voting marginally more secure. To actually change things, you need to influence people that make day to day decisions. They govern what actually happens NOT politicians. Easily the most powerful people globally are programmers. Because they implement the systems that make the bulk of economic decisions. Your power as a programmer is weak simply because you can't communicate with other programmers. Sure, we can talk on a mailing list. But 10 million programmers voting NO to the invasion of Iraq would have stopped it. BTW: probably the most powerful group today are investigative media reporters. Because they currently DO have the ability to stand together in defence of presenting their results on a powerful brain washing system -- TV. They can bring down a US President. Or con people into believing his lies -- both of which have happened in recent history. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 03:17:45 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9euH-0003MB-66 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:17:45 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9euE-0003Hs-Ry for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:17:42 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9euC-0003Br-TF for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:17:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9euC-0003Ba-O0 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:17:40 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9eo8-0000Mz-DJ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:11:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8L7BC4Y013694 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:41:22 +0930 (CST) From: skaller To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 21 Sep 2004 17:11:11 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Demexp-dev] voting tools X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:17:43 -0000 BTW: one interest I have in this project is actually *using* it. I have the power to set it up for the Felix project (there just aren't enough users yet, but its going into the Shootout now .. :) However we could think about setting up a site for Ocaml. INRIA team could then use the results to guide their activity. I think this would be much more effective than just talking on a mailing list, for those issues for which opinion is strong enough. Note this use isn't for law making nor for forcing the rightful controllers of the project to do anything. Rather, it is simply one more way to measure opinion. And, IMHO, that is how a community should be managed. It is also, IMHO, what actually happens right now. The difference is the quality of the command and control feedback process: computerised voting is vastly more responsive than electing representatives every 4 years. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 14:43:52 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pcG-0008VM-Bl for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:43:52 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pcF-0008UY-EC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:43:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pcE-0008TX-8c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:43:50 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pcE-0008TC-6G for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:43:50 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.29] (helo=mwinf0207.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pVy-00067t-3E for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:37:22 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0207.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id D6EA3180005A for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf0207.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A3E571800057 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pVu-0001Uk-LL for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:18 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:18 +0200 Message-ID: <876567wjs1.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] What is on and off topic on the list X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:43:51 -0000 Hello, I'm glad to see some life on this mailing-list but unfortunatly some posts here are off topic. This list is called demexp-DEV, so it is at *development* of the demexp software (and all technical issues surrounding it like for example cryptography). But we have setup other mailing lists to speak on the political implications and other related issues of the democratic experience project : demexp-en@ras.eu.org. So could you please subscribe to it and continue such discussions there? http://www.demexp.org/article.php3?id_article=7 * Demexp-announce list To subscribe to this mailing list, you must send an email to demexp-announce-request@ras.eu.org with "subscribe" as subject: mailto:demexp-announce-request@ras.eu.org?subject=subscribe To unsubscribe from this mailing list, you must send an email to demexp-announce-request@ras.eu.org with "unsubscribe" as subject: mailto:demexp-announce-request@ras.eu.org?subject=unsubscribe * Demexp-en list To subscribe to this mailing list, you must send an email to demexp-en-request@ras.eu.org with "subscribe" as subject: mailto:demexp-en-request@ras.eu.org?subject=subscribe To send a message to this mailing list, you must write (in English!) to demexp-en@ras.eu.org: mailto:demexp-en@ras.eu.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, you must send an email to demexp-en-request@ras.eu.org with "unsubscribe" as subject: mailto:demexp-en-request@ras.eu.org?subject=unsubscribe Yours, david -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 14:44:43 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pd5-0000AD-Jy for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:44:43 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pd3-00009t-M6 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:44:41 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pd2-00009P-1E for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:44:41 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pd1-00009M-VB for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:44:40 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.28] (helo=mwinf0304.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pWd-0006HK-6W for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:38:03 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0304.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 5F9BBA803F9F; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:38:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf0304.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 32F8BA804108; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:38:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pWW-0001Un-0N; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:56 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:37:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:27:44 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <871xgvwjr0.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:44:42 -0000 Brian Hurt writes: > But there is still random information there. Even if the number is 70% > 1's and 30% 0's, you're still getting (approximately) 0.6 bits of random > information per bit (actually, it's a little bit less than this- I'm > forgetting the actual formula at the moment). So if you need 256 bits of > truely random bits, you'd need to collect 256/0.6 or 427 bits of biased > bits, and then hash the value down to 256 bits, "concentrating" the > randomness. Thank you, I wasn't aware of this issue and possible solution to it. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 14:46:57 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pfE-0000vZ-Rw for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:46:56 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pfC-0000tU-K7 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:46:54 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pfB-0000si-Im for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:46:54 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pfB-0000sV-Cd for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:46:53 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.27] (helo=mwinf0403.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pYp-0006eq-WC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:40:20 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0403.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 35C35500028D; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:40:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf0403.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 09F9F50002FA; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:40:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pYi-0001Us-QS; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:40:12 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Formal verification (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:40:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:37 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87wtynv52r.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:46:55 -0000 Hello Brian, Brian Hurt writes: > Open source software and off the shelf hardware components are sufficient, > even for presidential elections. If the software was available, it would > be downloaded by "neutral third parties" and rigorously inspected. The > problem is that there are enough components to the system- the software we > write, the Ocaml compiler, the operating systems, etc.- that formal > verification of one part doesn't imply formal verification of all parts. Sure, but I still prefer a mathematical proof of some parts than no proof at all. It's just my opinion. As with all other free software projects, time and work will tell what can be done if it is valuable. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 15:00:57 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9psn-00052X-LB for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:00:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9psm-000522-7S for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:00:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9psl-00051n-Jy for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:00:55 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9psl-00051k-Ey for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:00:55 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.27] (helo=mwinf0409.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pmK-0000Mn-6E for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:54:16 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0409.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 80DDF18000B9; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:54:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf0409.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4ACE518000EF; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:54:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pmD-0001V7-2u; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:54:09 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Target audience and security (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:54:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:37 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:00:56 -0000 Hello Brian, Brian Hurt writes: > One thing you don't make clear: who is our target audience? Are we > talking about online preference polling, online community organization > (eg Debian), "non-political" votes (eg American Idol), or official > political votes? We are targeting a system where every person, from every country, could "enter"[1] the system and asks questions, responses and vote on them, in the open manner as defined on the democratic experience project description. We are *not* targeting an electrinic voting system for "classic" elections. Other people and free software projects are doing it. > This is a non-trivial question. How much security do we need? We need a very very strong security. Enough security that you, as a computer literate people, would trust the system. Enough peer review that people would have confidence in it. We know that we must define and implement such a system and that is a difficult and very risky task. But we have decided to do it because we believe in our project. When Linus started Linux or Stallman started gcc, it seemed impossible at that time to do what they have done, with the *help of others*. [plug here some tens of young voices singing the joy of becoming the designer of demexp security protocol] Yours, d. [1] The exact procedure to register somebody on the demexp server is not defined yet. However we have some ideas on it. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 15:08:01 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pzd-0005pv-Ef for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:08:01 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pzZ-0005p1-L4 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:07:57 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pzX-0005nx-70 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:07:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9pzX-0005ng-2r for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:07:55 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9ptJ-0001VC-IL for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:01:29 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id C763A18000CB; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:01:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9684D18000F2; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:01:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9ptC-0001VF-0P; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:01:22 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: demexp software use (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:01:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:28:06 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87oejzv43i.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:07:58 -0000 Brian Hurt writes: > This is an interesting and usefull project. In many ways, more > interesting and usefull than the voting machine project my earlier > comments were aimed at. Glad to here that. ;) More seriously, the demexp program as itself, extracted from the democratic experience project, could be used for other purposes (as you said, communities, free software projects, etc.). That one of the reasons I'm coding it. Of course, we would be glad to accept patches that modify demexp for other purpose (e.g. other voting algorithms than Cordorcet or disable the delegation system) as long as such patches still allow us to use demexp for the democratic experience project. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 15:10:26 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9q1y-0006YV-Am for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:10:26 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9q1v-0006Y0-UK for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:10:24 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9q1s-0006Wp-RC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:10:22 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9q1s-0006WQ-Ia for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:10:20 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.26] (helo=mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pvh-0001wF-9w for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:03:57 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id AAF8DE800320; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 85005E800400; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9pva-0001VI-8Z; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:03:50 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:03:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "21 Sep 2004 17:11:11 +1000") Message-ID: <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:10:24 -0000 Hello John, skaller writes: > BTW: one interest I have in this project is actually > *using* it. How yes! Use demexp! I have two guys here in Rennes crying for that. But as it could be said: "you want it? just code it." ;) Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 15:19:55 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9qB8-0001pS-VF for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:19:55 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9qB7-0001pB-Ht for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:19:53 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9qB6-0001oz-Mq for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:19:53 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9qB6-0001op-Ke for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:19:52 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9q55-0003SF-MH for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:13:40 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 12BFD18000CC; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:13:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-21-194.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.53.6.194]) by mwinf1009.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CE0C218000CA; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1C9q4y-0001Vw-FO; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:13:32 +0200 To: Brian Hurt Subject: Cordorcet voting (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) References: From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:13:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brian Hurt's message of "Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:23:37 -0500 (CDT)") Message-ID: <87fz5bv3j7.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:53 -0000 Hello Brian, Brian Hurt writes: >> - use Condorcet voting algorithm. > > Arrow's theorem says that no one voting system is perfect. > > Here's an example case- the voters have three choices, A, B, and C. > 1/3rd of the population (group 1) prefers A over B, and B over C. > Another 1/3rd (group 2) prefers B over C, and C over A. The last 1/3rd > (group 3) prefers C over A, and A over B. Now, 2/3rds of the population > prefers A over B (groups 1 and 3), B over C (groups 1 and 2), and C over A > (groups 2 and 3). Who wins? > > Similiar voting problems exist for all voting systems. It's been proven > mathematically. Right. We know this case and I have even implemented (debian) algorithms to solve this kind of issue (look for example at the autotests in srv/voting.ml.nw). It has been proven that such cases exist. But nothing is said on the reality to have such events on a real vote, with thousands or millions of voters, each one doing its own individual choice. If you have mathematical or statistical analysis of Cordorcet voting, we would be glad to integrate them in current code (the sections Introduction and Analysis still need to be written). We have chosen Cordorcet voting because we find that there are some interesting good points for it (the ordering of preferences that allows to extract a consensus). But if you find a better algorithm, great, just send us the patches to integrate it in current demexp. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 16:23:24 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rAa-0000wL-MN for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:23:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rAY-0000vF-Ip for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:23:22 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rAV-0000uG-5o for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:23:22 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rAV-0000uD-2q for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:23:19 -0400 Received: from [64.106.20.39] (helo=mail.cs.unm.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9r4G-0004s8-O8 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:16:52 -0400 Received: from 64-169-229-45.ded.pacbell.net ([64.169.229.45] helo=[192.168.0.78]) by mail.cs.unm.edu with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C9r3w-0001ju-00 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:16:32 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1B28F881-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: William Neumann Subject: Re: Target audience and security (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:16:22 -0600 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanner: exiscan *1C9r3w-0001ju-00*TzlSWfbJDxk* X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:23:22 -0000 On Sep 21, 2004, at 12:54 PM, David MENTRE wrote: > We need a very very strong security. Enough security that you, as a > computer literate people, would trust the system. Enough peer review > that people would have confidence in it. I'd change that to "Enough security that a group of competent cryptologists and computer security experts would trust the system". It's been shown by the WEP debacle and many, many other broken protocols that computer literacy is not even close to ensuring security (I mentioned the video of the Crypto rump session in an earlier message, in it John Black gives two entertaining talks on how otherwise computer literate and intelligent people demonstrate how easy it is to screw up crypto and security, they are also well worth watching). I do plan on looking over the existing security plans that were posted earlier on the mailing list and giving my opinions, but I won't be able to get to it until October at the earliest (end of the fiscal year at work == busy, busy, busy). But even I would not trust my own approval until a few other folk that I trust and respect also look it over and give it the thumbs up. There is another group out there (I'll be darned if I can remember their name, but I'll look through my notes) that is trying to use crypto to help foster free speech and the free exchange of ideas in less than free countries. They might be willing to donate some eyes to look over any proposals we may hammer out. Of course, they were looking for volunteers too, last I heard, so you might have to trade resources to get their help... William D. Neumann "You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..." -- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 16:24:23 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rBW-0001UK-Un for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:24:22 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rBV-0001Tu-K4 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:24:21 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rBU-0001Tb-VD for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:24:21 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rBU-0001TX-Rq for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:24:20 -0400 Received: from [64.106.20.39] (helo=mail.cs.unm.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9r5S-00056L-1t for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:18:06 -0400 Received: from 64-169-229-45.ded.pacbell.net ([64.169.229.45] helo=[192.168.0.78]) by mail.cs.unm.edu with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C9r5J-0001mn-00 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:17:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4C23058B-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: William Neumann Subject: Fwd: [Demexp-dev] VIA x86-like processors with cryptographic facilities Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:17:44 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanner: exiscan *1C9r5J-0001mn-00*TQOFsRTxVq2* X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:24:21 -0000 Bitten yet again by a "reply-to" trap... Here it is for the whole list: Begin forwarded message: > On Sep 21, 2004, at 12:37 PM, David MENTRE wrote: > >> Thank you, I wasn't aware of this issue and possible solution to it. > > Yes. There are plenty of techniques for dealing with this problem > using expander graphs, etc. Peter Guttman did some work on distilling > randomness for cryptographic uses for a paper at the 1998 (1997?) > Usenix Security Symposium that is pretty easy to implement. William D. Neumann "You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..." -- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 16:27:24 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rES-0001rn-A7 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:27:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rEQ-0001rY-CL for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:27:22 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rEP-0001qr-EQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:27:21 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9rEP-0001qG-6Z for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:27:21 -0400 Received: from [64.106.20.39] (helo=mail.cs.unm.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9r7l-0005TT-7F for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:20:29 -0400 Received: from 64-169-229-45.ded.pacbell.net ([64.169.229.45] helo=[192.168.0.78]) by mail.cs.unm.edu with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C9r7T-0001tO-00 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:20:22 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9EE20336-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: William Neumann Subject: Fwd: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:20:03 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanner: exiscan *1C9r7T-0001tO-00*1qAm5IR/GI6* X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:27:22 -0000 Another message lost to "reply-to" land... Note that the first paragraph contains some off-topic stuff from earlier, while the last paragraph is about secure voting tech. Begin forwarded message: > On Sep 20, 2004, at 8:36 PM, Brian Hurt wrote: > >> But to tamper with the paper votes, you have to get access to the >> physical >> votes. Doing it on a wide-scale basis, wide-scale enough to seriously >> affect the election, is hard work. It's hard work just to move that >> amount of paper around, forget slight of hand. And you need to make >> sure >> that no one else knows stage magic either. Small corruptions are >> certainly possible. Large corruptions are a problem. > > Really? During the last presidential election in New Mexico, the > state went to Gore by just a couple hundred votes (if I remember the > numbers correctly -- and I'm far too lazy to look them up. Trust me, > it was close.) I also believe that if Florida went to Gore, New > Mexico could have swung the election back over to Bush. It would have > been little to no problem to flip the election with minimal planning > and skill. Boxes of votes here in New Mexico are routinely misplaced. > Entire counties are well known for their "questionable" voting > practices. States like this one are perfect targets for affecting the > outcome of close elections (like the coming election is expected to > be). > > Yes, large scale corruption is hard. My point is that large scale > corruption is not necessarily necessary. > > BTW: There is a lot of work out there done on secure electronic > voting in the crypto literature covering secure shuffling, "receipt > free" balloting, secure vote counting, etc. A couple of web searches > should turn up hours of interesting reading. David Chaum presented a > fairly interesting system in one of this year's IEEE Security and > Privacy publications (the January/February issue -- the article is > available online, I forget where, but google always knows) that uses > visual cryptography for securing the receipts. He had to update the > system due to issues with printing systems, and presented the changes > at the rump session of this year's Crypto conference. You can more or > less see the talk via wmv from the IACR website > , he's about > 2/3's of the way through, you can look at the program available at > that page to help you search for his segment. William D. Neumann "You've got Rita Marlowe in the palm of your hand." "Palm of my hand? You haven't seen Rita Marlowe..." -- Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Sep 21 18:07:04 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1C9smu-00013X-Q3 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:07:04 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9smt-00013M-Hv for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:07:03 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9smr-00013A-4h for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:07:03 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9smr-000137-10 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:07:01 -0400 Received: from [205.166.146.1] (helo=herd.plethora.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1C9sgk-0004DN-3S for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:00:42 -0400 Received: from bhurt.plethora.net (bhurt.plethora.net [205.166.146.49]) by herd.plethora.net (8.13.1/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8LM0NMu014060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:10:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hurt X-X-Sender: bhurt@localhost.localdomain To: David MENTRE Subject: Re: Target audience and security (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) In-Reply-To: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:07:03 -0000 On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, David MENTRE wrote: > We are *not* targeting an electrinic voting system for "classic" > elections. Other people and free software projects are doing it. Thanks. That's the decision I was looking for. One neat idea I had, to keep in our back pocket: There are about 30,000 words in common use in the english language. Make it a nice, round number- call it 32,768 common words. We might be able to get it up to 65,536 words, if we include common first names, place names, etc. There will probably be times when we need to have humans deal with large numbers. We've all had the hell of reading 20-digit alphanumeric strings over the phone, knowing that one wrong digit means it won't work. Instead of encoding our large numbers as strings of common words. Each word represents 15 or 16 bits of the number. So that 256-bit hash of the public key is represented to humans as a string of 16 common words, as opposed to a string of 64 hexadecimal or 43 base-64 characters. The compression is less (we're talking about 80+ characters at least for a 256-bit hash key, vr.s 43 or 64 characters), but the user friendliness is much higher. It's much easier to read "robot cat herd enrage violet ideal ..." over the phone. Much more likely for the human to get it right, too. Note that we can also take advantage of any spell checkers we can glom onto. Note that capitalization is irrelevent. Internationalization is easy. If word 12,345 in English is 'tomato', and in German it's 'schreib' (sorry, my german is awful- what's german for 'write'?), then all we need is a translator program that when it see's 'tomato' spits out 'schreib'. Each language can have it's own list of 64K most common words. If the language doesn't have 64K words (Klingon, Esperanto?), it can use multiple words. The translation is simple, mechanical, and precise- because it doesn't care what the words are, only what number they are. -- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 11:11:14 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CA8m2-0006sD-4L for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:11:14 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CA8m0-0006s2-84 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:11:12 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CA8lz-0006rk-1F for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:11:11 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA8ly-0006ra-PL for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:11:10 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CA8fU-0001lY-8c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:04:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MF4A4Y010980; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:34:12 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 23 Sep 2004 01:04:10 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:11:12 -0000 On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 05:03, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello John, > > skaller writes: > > > BTW: one interest I have in this project is actually > > *using* it. > > How yes! Use demexp! I have two guys here in Rennes crying for that. But > as it could be said: "you want it? just code it." ;) I've joined the *dev* list for that reason :) What would be useful is to get a lead into the development with a small well defined component, preferably something where enough is already done I can copy and modify example code. So if you can find some small job to get me going that would help? In other words, at least for now please treat me as a rather slow but willing slave. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 11:38:19 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9CF-0005rr-5u for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:38:19 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9CD-0005ri-4c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:38:17 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9C9-0005rW-CG for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:38:15 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9C9-0005rS-Af for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:38:13 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CA966-0007b2-NX for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:31:59 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MFViOU068945; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 01:01:46 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: Target audience and security (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] Thoughts on voting machines) From: skaller To: William Neumann In-Reply-To: <1B28F881-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> References: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> <1B28F881-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095867103.2581.28.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 23 Sep 2004 01:31:44 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:38:17 -0000 On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 06:16, William Neumann wrote: > On Sep 21, 2004, at 12:54 PM, David MENTRE wrote: > There is another group out there (I'll be darned if I can remember > their name, but I'll look through my notes) that is trying to use > crypto to help foster free speech and the free exchange of ideas in > less than free countries I know of them too. Also can't remember who it was. But I do remember some of the ideas. One is that information is stored in such a way that even under torture, a person can provide a password to encrypted information which is actually a false key, and the torturers cannot know. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 13:29:44 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAw4-00062M-7R for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:29:44 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAw2-00062B-KX for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:29:42 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAw0-00061y-Nr for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:29:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAw0-00061v-Ka for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:29:40 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.30] (helo=mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAApr-0002iO-Dd for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:23:19 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id C716A1BFB3EB; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:23:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 95A481BFFF5A; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:23:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAApk-0000tQ-Nt; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:23:12 +0200 To: William Neumann References: <87sm9bv4fi.fsf@linux-france.org> <1B28F881-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:23:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1B28F881-0C0B-11D9-A5AE-003065F3078C@cs.unm.edu> (William Neumann's message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:16:22 -0600") Message-ID: <87llf2cj5r.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Demexp-dev] Re: Target audience and security X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:29:42 -0000 Hello William, William Neumann writes: > I'd change that to "Enough security that a group of competent > cryptologists and computer security experts would trust the system". Right. It was my first intent to say that. > I do plan on looking over the existing security plans that were > posted earlier on the mailing list and giving my opinions, but I won't > be able to get to it until October at the earliest Well, there is no hurry. And as I said previously, this proposal is lacking important features for demexp (handling of delegation). The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure we need "a group of competent cryptologists and computer security experts" to design the protocol (or find it or adapt it from current literature). But right now, I'm not even capable of expressing the precise requirements (however I can give rough ones if needed) so, as I said, there is no hurry. Yours, david -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 14:10:18 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CABZK-0005cl-4i for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:10:18 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CABZF-0005ZR-CU for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:10:13 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CABZD-0005Xl-Ts for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:10:12 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABZD-0005XA-RJ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:10:11 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1003.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CABSU-0001xh-8l for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:03:14 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1003.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 6B2E6180013B; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf1003.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 14F0018000C2; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CABSM-00016L-Tl; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:06 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "23 Sep 2004 01:04:10 +1000") Message-ID: <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:10:13 -0000 Hello John, My comment was rather targeted at my french friends on this list but you're proposal is very welcome. skaller writes: > So if you can find some small job to get me > going that would help? Sure. :) The most important thing to do now is having a workable graphical user interface (to be able to do some demo). The UI is divided into several windows, the main one, with the menu bar, which is a browser for the data base and several others called from menu items or buttons. You can launch the client with -dall-dialogs to have all those windows at once. ./lablgtk2-clnt/demexp-lablgtk2-client -dall-dialogs I've already done the "Preferences" and "Manage users" windows (respectively lablgtk2-clnt/pref.ml.nw and lablgtk2-clnt/users.ml.nw). You could start by doing the "Manage tags" window (lablgtk2-clnt/tags.ml.nw), taking lablgtk2-clnt/users.ml.nw as an example. This window is rather simple: a tree widget to display keywords and there ids; a button Add to add a new one and a button Rename to change the label of a tag. The client/server code is done through RPC calls but everything is ready on the server. You can look at section 15.4.3 p. 91 of srv/demexp-server-book.dvi to have a working example. The client/server interaction is very similar to the one in lablgtk2-clnt/users.ml.nw. The job would be to add needed callbacks to make this window doing real thing on the server. I'm new to lablgtk2, so feel free to make comments on code structure. I also would like to comment the code in an intelligent way (e.g. explain to overall structure or why such thing is done there) but the client is not very well commented. If you don't understand something, just ask on this mailing list. My GNU Arch repository is at: dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ You'll find always the latest tarball of the code at: http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/demexp/latest-src/ This is just a proposal, if you don't like it, just tell me. And of course, there is now hurry. This is a free software project after all. :) In our last project meeting on Monday, we defined following priorities for development (taking as hypothesis that I was the only developer): 1. finish the graphical client; 2. make xml database saving/loading work on the server; 3. implement delegation (on both server and client); 4. internationalization; 5. security protocol and its implementation (it might necessitate code refactoring). If one of those subject interests you more, just tell me. We'll organize ourselves to allow you to do it. Yours, david -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 14:14:45 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CABdd-0006TA-Rl for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:45 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CABdb-0006Sv-BN for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:43 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CABdZ-0006SQ-9U for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABdZ-0006SG-3y for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:41 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.28] (helo=mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CABXU-0002sR-Qf for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:08:25 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 2C3984007FD; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:08:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 08AD44007F5; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:08:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CABXN-00016d-SS; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:08:17 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:08:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> (David MENTRE's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87d60ech2m.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:14:43 -0000 David MENTRE writes: > course, there is now hurry. This is a free software project after all. :) ^no -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 14:44:26 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAC6M-00044p-EN for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:26 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAC6K-00044k-4h for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:24 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAC6I-00044Y-Fu for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAC6I-00044V-8j for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:22 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.23] (helo=mwinf0804.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAC0H-0000Uo-90 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:38:09 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0804.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 8FD8E18000F8; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf0804.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5DD1B180004D; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAC08-00017C-3Z; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:38:00 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:37:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> (David MENTRE's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:06 +0200") Message-ID: <873c1acfp4.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:44:24 -0000 David MENTRE writes: > 4. internationalization; Two sub items for i18n: - i18n/l10n of the server (maybe) and client; - develop an infrastructure to allow the translation of Question and Responses of the base. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 15:50:28 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAD8F-0007mY-QI for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:50:27 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAD8B-0007lh-Ad for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:50:23 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAD88-0007kv-EO for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:50:21 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAD88-0007kQ-Ca for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:50:20 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAD1x-0004kO-LC for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:43:58 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MJhlOU053233; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:13:50 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095882221.2581.165.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 23 Sep 2004 05:43:47 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:50:23 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 04:03, David MENTRE wrote: > I'm new to lablgtk2, so feel free to make comments on code structure. Lol -- I've built two interfaces to gtk: worked on mlgtk, and then built a Vyper interface to it. But I've never done more than hello world program using gtk, and not used lablgtk2 at all :) Still .. GUI's are laborious rather than hard. The labouriousest part is usually figuring out what order to do things in (callbacks suck :) > My GNU Arch repository is at: > dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ Ok .. I'll have to get Arch first .. building it now ... > You'll find always the latest tarball of the code at: > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/demexp/latest-src/ > > > This is just a proposal, if you don't like it, just tell me. It sounds ok, but I'll have to build arch (i'm getting tla-1.2.1), then figure out how to grab the sources... if you have a hint how to do that it may help (CVS certainly isn't obvious) > In our last project meeting on Monday, we defined following priorities > for development (taking as hypothesis that I was the only developer): LOL! I know that feeling .. :) > 5. security protocol and its implementation (it might necessitate code > refactoring). yeah, the first thing is to get a working demo. IMHO: security and encryption and virtually independent. There are plenty of plug-in encryption libs around. Security is all about an architectural model .. how keys are stored, which processes to use etc. For example you could accept signed email votes. Or insist on online verification. GPG is all about security -- the encryption is just a minor detail, typically a plugin :) For Felix I would like people to be able to examine source code online, so they can tell what it does, and examine signed certificates from experts giving opinions about what it does.. then download an execute it .. with some reason to believe they're executing what they just examined. Executing stuff off the internet is risky -- so I need a pretty good security model.. but the download itself, for example, could just use https -- there's no secrecy here, just a need to be sure the code will do what you expect: I need a security model. The encryption isn't really an issue :) -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 16:07:39 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CADOt-0002E0-BB for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:07:39 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CADOr-0002Dt-3O for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:07:37 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CADOp-0002Dh-Fd for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:07:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CADOp-0002De-Bz for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:07:35 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.30] (helo=mwinf0103.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CADIm-0007zm-W3 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:01:21 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 4DFF21BFFF28; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:01:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf0103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 18F251BFFF2C; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:01:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CADIf-0001Eu-JK; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095882221.2581.165.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:01:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095882221.2581.165.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "23 Sep 2004 05:43:47 +1000") Message-ID: <87y8j2ax9y.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:07:37 -0000 skaller writes: > It sounds ok, but I'll have to build arch (i'm getting tla-1.2.1), > then figure out how to grab the sources... if you have a hint > how to do that it may help (CVS certainly isn't obvious) You mean, how to grab the source? Well, I would follow Arch tutorial: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/arch.html Most notably, you should: 1. create your archive and make it default: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/new-archive.html#Creating_a_New_Archive 2. register my archive (you can even mirror it on your machine): http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/shared-and-public-archives.html#Shared_and_Public_Archives 3. get my first copy to work on: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/retrieving-earlier-revisions.html#Retrieving_Earlier_Revisions % tla get demexp--development--0.3 demexp-dev-work-copy You'll find also some quick statup guides and a lot of useful info on the Arch wiki: http://wiki.gnuarch.org/ I hope it helps, Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 22 16:10:20 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CADRU-0002bR-BM for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:10:20 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CADRR-0002bE-7p for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:10:17 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CADRP-0002aq-C9 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:10:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CADRP-0002ag-7c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:10:15 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.27] (helo=mwinf0412.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CADLM-0008TT-LQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:04:00 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0412.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id F37B91800147; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:03:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-20-46.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.125.46]) by mwinf0412.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C93BB1800132; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:03:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CADLF-0001FI-8r; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:03:53 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:03:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> (David MENTRE's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:03:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:10:17 -0000 David MENTRE writes: > My GNU Arch repository is at: > dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ > > You'll find always the latest tarball of the code at: > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/demexp/latest-src/ By the way, for all commits there is an email on demexp-cvs mailing list with commit log, e.g.: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/demexp-cvs/2004-09/msg00017.html Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 00:13:58 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAKzW-0004r4-7Z for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:13:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAKzU-0004qb-F5 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:13:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAKzR-0004qP-Qp for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:13:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAKzR-0004qF-PR for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:13:53 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAKsh-0004gQ-Uk for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:06:56 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8N46i4Y042200; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:36:49 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 23 Sep 2004 14:06:44 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:13:56 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 06:03, David MENTRE wrote: > David MENTRE writes: > > > My GNU Arch repository is at: > > dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code > > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ Argg. I built and installed tla-1.2.1 from GNU. The regression test failed though. Sigh. Can I have exact instructions for Linux user to create image of repository? -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 00:45:06 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CALTe-0002G4-HQ for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:45:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CALTU-0002F6-NP for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:44:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CALTS-0002EM-U3 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:44:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CALTS-0002E5-RU for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:44:54 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CALNQ-0000zS-9c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:38:41 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8N4cY4Y057053; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:08:34 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 23 Sep 2004 14:38:34 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:44:57 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 14:06, skaller wrote: > On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 06:03, David MENTRE wrote: > > David MENTRE writes: > > > > > My GNU Arch repository is at: > > > dmentre@linux-france.org--2004-code > > > http://www.linux-france.org/~dmentre/arch-ive/ > > Argg. I built and installed tla-1.2.1 from GNU. > The regression test failed though. Sigh. > > Can I have exact instructions for Linux user to > create image of repository? Scrub that request, my tla is crashing itself with a botched invariant making an archive. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 13:15:07 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXBT-0005GV-0O for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:15:07 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXBR-0005GG-40 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:15:05 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXBP-0005Fa-MN for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:15:04 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXBP-0005FE-7m for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:15:03 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.28] (helo=mwinf0308.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAX5L-0007w3-Dz for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:08:47 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0308.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id A91D01800116; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:08:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-15-251.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.29.251]) by mwinf0308.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 79732180010D; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:08:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAX5E-0000rn-LL; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:08:40 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Arch setup (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools) References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:08:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "23 Sep 2004 14:38:34 +1000") Message-ID: <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:15:05 -0000 Hello John, skaller writes: > Scrub that request, my tla is crashing itself > with a botched invariant making an archive. I'm not sure you have provided the proper information to tla. [skaller@pelican] /usr/local/src/tlarchs>tla make-archive skaller@users.sf.net--demexp demexp /usr/local/src/tla-1.2.1/src/tla/libarch/pfs-fs.c:87:botched invariant !!uri PANIC: exiting on botched invariant Have you created the folder "demexp" to store the archive? Shouldn't you give an absolute or relative path? I would try: mkdir ~/demexp tla make-archive skaller@users.sf.net--demexp ~/demexp I'll try to make a more detailed example of how to setup an Arch repository. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 13:46:02 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXfO-0004kS-8G for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:46:02 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXfM-0004jo-ER for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:46:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXfK-0004jT-MG for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:46:00 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXfK-0004jI-GQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:45:58 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.203] (helo=smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAXYs-0004Sq-IR for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:39:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8NHd8OU012920; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:09:10 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: Arch setup (was: Re: [Demexp-dev] voting tools) From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 24 Sep 2004 03:39:07 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:00 -0000 On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:08, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello John, > > skaller writes: > > > Scrub that request, my tla is crashing itself > > with a botched invariant making an archive. > > I'm not sure you have provided the proper information to tla. > > [skaller@pelican] /usr/local/src/tlarchs>tla make-archive > skaller@users.sf.net--demexp demexp > /usr/local/src/tla-1.2.1/src/tla/libarch/pfs-fs.c:87:botched invariant > !!uri > PANIC: exiting on botched invariant > > > Have you created the folder "demexp" to store the archive? > > Shouldn't you give an absolute or relative path? > > I would try: > > mkdir ~/demexp > tla make-archive skaller@users.sf.net--demexp ~/demexp [skaller@pelican] /usr/local/src/tlarchs>mkdir demexp [skaller@pelican] /usr/local/src/tlarchs>tla make-archive skaller@users.sf.net--demexp demexp /usr/local/src/tla-1.2.1/src/tla/libarch/pfs-fs.c:87:botched invariant !!uri PANIC: exiting on botched invariant [skaller@pelican] /usr/local/src/tlarchs> > I'll try to make a more detailed example of how to setup an Arch > repository. I followed the online instructions. Considering that the regression test failed .. I'm not surprised. A botched invariant indicates a logic error in the code. No serious program gives that kind of error due to faulty user input. Something went wrong in the build. I didn't grab the latest tarball: I got 1.2.1, there were also 1.2.2pre0, pre1, etc files with later dates -- I assumed these were less stable pre-release versions. Maybe I can find a Linux/x86 binary somewhere.. I'm running Redhat so and rpm might work too. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 14:08:06 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY0k-0002Xc-Lo for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:08:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY0i-0002X3-Pp for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:08:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY0g-0002WK-C3 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:08:04 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY0f-0002WH-9x for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:08:02 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.29] (helo=mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAXuN-00081G-LR for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:01:31 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 9ECE51800064; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:01:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-15-251.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.29.251]) by mwinf0212.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 764C21800094; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:01:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAXuG-0000vi-D8; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:01:24 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:01:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "24 Sep 2004 03:39:07 +1000") Message-ID: <87oejwg8zv.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Demexp-dev] Re: Arch setup X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:08:05 -0000 skaller writes: > Maybe I can find a Linux/x86 binary somewhere.. I'm running > Redhat so and rpm might work too. You'll find RPMs there: http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/RPM_20Packages Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 14:10:34 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY38-00034p-Gx for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:34 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY37-00033C-Dq for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:33 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY35-000330-QS for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAY35-00032x-N8 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:31 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.25] (helo=mwinf0612.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAXwr-0008PW-4c for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:04:05 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0612.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id BD9DD180012C; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:04:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-15-251.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.29.251]) by mwinf0612.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 949BA180010B; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:04:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAXwj-0000w0-FL; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:03:57 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:03:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "24 Sep 2004 03:39:07 +1000") Message-ID: <87hdpog8vm.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Demexp-dev] Re: Arch setup X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:10:33 -0000 skaller writes: > I didn't grab the latest tarball: I got 1.2.1, there were On my debian sarge, the Arch version is: tla tla-1.2-4 from regexps.com Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 14:57:02 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYm6-0006D8-5F for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:57:02 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYm4-0006C5-Do for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:57:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYm3-0006Bl-Hs for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:57:00 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYm3-0006BR-FG for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:56:59 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1012.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAYfx-0007Qg-G4 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:50:41 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1012.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 0515B180013D for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-15-251.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.29.251]) by mwinf1012.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D52A518000CA for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:50:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CAYfu-0000ww-Pw for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:50:38 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:50:38 +0200 Message-ID: <878yb0g6pt.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Subject: [Demexp-dev] Link for a question? X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:57:00 -0000 Hello, Should the initial question contain an external link? Initially, we have decided that responses would have links, for further debate. But maybe it would be interesting to initiate the debate on the initial question by allowing to provide a link to a web site, news site, etc. As an example, we could have: Question: Is demexp useful? http://.... Response 1: Yes http://.... Response 2: Maybe http://.... [...] What do you think of it? Yours, david -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 15:16:55 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZ5K-00035F-V8 for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:16:55 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZ5I-00034c-Iz for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:16:52 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZ5H-000344-Fk for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:16:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZ5H-00033h-Cm for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:16:51 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.176] (helo=postfix4-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAYyZ-00020E-CD for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:09:55 -0400 Received: from [82.254.142.169] (lns-vlq-26-82-254-142-169.adsl.proxad.net [82.254.142.169]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17FA1FA9B0; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:58:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <41531DED.7010408@free.fr> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:03:09 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David MENTRE Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Link for a question? References: <878yb0g6pt.fsf@linux-france.org> In-Reply-To: <878yb0g6pt.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:16:53 -0000 David, I think that allowing a link on the question itself could be more confusing than useful e.g.: someone submits a question "Is demexp useful?" and adds a link to a page where he says "I mean the demexp project not the demexp software" . Then what question do you answer? Also someone who submits a question may put a link that is not partial, and this would be unfair. I think that in 99% of the time someone who submits a question also has a candidate answer to propose, so she/he will put the link together with the candidate answer. Cheers, Felix >Hello, > >Should the initial question contain an external link? > >Initially, we have decided that responses would have links, for further >debate. > >But maybe it would be interesting to initiate the debate on the initial >question by allowing to provide a link to a web site, news site, etc. > >As an example, we could have: > > Question: Is demexp useful? > http://.... > > > Response 1: Yes > http://.... > > Response 2: Maybe > http://.... > > [...] > > >What do you think of it? > >Yours, >david > > From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 23 22:25:41 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CAfmG-0004Su-Ud for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:25:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAfmF-0004S7-62 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:25:39 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CAfmD-0004Qv-W2 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:25:38 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAfmD-0004Pg-RY for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:25:37 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAffj-00032q-7A for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:18:56 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8O2Il4Y022772; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:48:48 +0930 (CST) From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87hdpog8vm.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <1095750671.2580.802.camel@pelican.wigram> <87k6unv3zd.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095865450.2581.13.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpqchb9.fsf@linux-france.org> <87u0tqax5i.fsf@linux-france.org> <1095912404.23141.15.camel@pelican.wigram> <1095914313.23141.32.camel@pelican.wigram> <87wtykgbfr.fsf_-_@linux-france.org> <1095961147.2581.84.camel@pelican.wigram> <87hdpog8vm.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1095992326.2581.169.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 24 Sep 2004 12:18:46 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Demexp-dev] Re: Arch setup X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 02:25:39 -0000 On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 04:03, David MENTRE wrote: > skaller writes: > > > I didn't grab the latest tarball: I got 1.2.1, there were > > On my debian sarge, the Arch version is: > tla tla-1.2-4 from regexps.com Argg .. you mean the GNU mirror itself is out of date with their own project? -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Sep 26 13:22:03 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CBcip-0008VT-Ep for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:22:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CBcin-0008VH-Tr for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:22:02 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CBciR-0008ON-TA for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:22:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBciR-0008OI-RF for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:21:39 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.21] (helo=mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CBcbv-0006Dw-Ud for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:14:56 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id F16311C00052; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:12:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-19-21.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.124.21]) by mwinf1002.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C6CB91C00049; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:12:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CBcbn-000116-TD; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:14:47 +0200 To: =?iso-8859-1?q?F=E9lix?= Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Link for a question? References: <878yb0g6pt.fsf@linux-france.org> <41531DED.7010408@free.fr> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:14:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <41531DED.7010408@free.fr> (felix.henry@free.fr's message of "Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:03:09 +0200") Message-ID: <87d609lzp4.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:22:02 -0000 Hello Félix, Félix writes: > I think that allowing a link on the question itself > could be more confusing than useful e.g.: someone > submits a question "Is demexp useful?" and adds a link > to a page where he says "I mean the demexp project not the > demexp software" . Then what question do you answer? > > Also someone who submits a question may put a link that > is not partial, and this would be unfair. > > I think that in 99% of the time someone who submits a question > also has a candidate answer to propose, so she/he will put the > link together with the candidate answer. I agree with your points. So I'll implement this if nobody disagree. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 29 14:34:04 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CCjHA-0000bt-Ft for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:34:04 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CCjAH-0005gy-T4 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:26:58 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CCjAH-0005gC-2T for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:26:57 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCjAG-0005g9-Oj for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:26:57 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.26] (helo=mwinf0509.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCj2r-0005yW-FP for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:19:19 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0509.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 93E9318001E4 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:19:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-18-72.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.59.72]) by mwinf0509.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0043318001DD for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:19:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CCj2m-00016b-8d for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:19:12 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:19:12 +0200 Message-ID: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: David X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:34:02 -0400 Subject: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:26:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I have played with Planner and made a list of remaining tasks. Of course, task duration should not be taken for granted. ;) I join the planner and html version of the project (for those who don't have Planner). This is done more to test Planner that to do real planning (if such a thing is possible for a free software project ;). Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ --=-=-= Content-Type: text/html Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=demexp-schedule.html Content-Description: demexp tasks list Demexp - Planner

Demexp

Company: www.demexp.org
Start Date: September 29, 2004
Finish Date: January 4, 2005
Duration: 97d 17h
Report Date: September 29, 2004

Gantt Chart


*** Note: Gantt chart requires CSS capability. ***
WBS Name Work Week 40, 2004 Week 41, 2004 Week 42, 2004 Week 43, 2004 Week 44, 2004 Week 45, 2004 Week 46, 2004 Week 47, 2004 Week 48, 2004 Week 49, 2004 Week 50, 2004 Week 51, 2004 Week 52, 2004
29 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 1 2 3 4
1 Finish graphical client 5d
1.1 demexp main window 5d
1.2 classification window 5d
1.3 manage tags window 1d
john
2 Delegation 20d
2.1 Design delegation 5d
2.2 Implement delegation 15d
3 Save & load of bases 20d
3.1 xml dtd 5d
3.2 xml save & load 5d
3.3 database interface design 5d
3.4 database interface coding 15d
4 Internationalization 70d
4.1 Design or found i18n infrastructure 5d
4.2 Code i18n infrastructure 5d
4.3 Client internationalization 10d
4.4 Server internationalization 10d
4.5 Design of base i18n infrastructure 10d
4.6 Coding of base i18n infrastructure 15d
5 Security 26d
5.1 analysis of possible DDoS 1d
5.2 secure server against DDoS 1d
5.3 secure client/server(s) communication 1d
5.4 protocol to guarantee vote anonymity 1d

Tasks

WBS Name Start Finish Work Priority Cost Notes
1 Finish graphical client Sep 29 Oct 5 5d
1.1 demexp main window Sep 29 Oct 5 5d
1.2 classification window Sep 29 Oct 5 5d
1.3 manage tags window Sep 29 Sep 29 1d
2 Delegation Oct 5 Nov 2 20d
2.1 Design delegation Oct 5 Oct 12 5d
2.2 Implement delegation Oct 12 Nov 2 15d
3 Save & load of bases Nov 2 Nov 30 20d
3.1 xml dtd Nov 2 Nov 9 5d
3.2 xml save & load Nov 9 Nov 16 5d
3.3 database interface design Nov 2 Nov 9 5d
3.4 database interface coding Nov 9 Nov 30 15d
4 Internationalization Sep 29 Jan 4 70d
4.1 Design or found i18n infrastructure Sep 29 Oct 5 5d
4.2 Code i18n infrastructure Oct 5 Oct 12 5d
4.3 Client internationalization Oct 12 Oct 26 10d
4.4 Server internationalization Oct 12 Oct 26 10d
4.5 Design of base i18n infrastructure Nov 30 Dec 14 10d
4.6 Coding of base i18n infrastructure Dec 14 Jan 4 15d
5 Security Sep 29 Nov 3 26d
5.1 analysis of possible DDoS Sep 29 Sep 29 1d
5.2 secure server against DDoS Sep 29 Sep 30 1d
5.3 secure client/server(s) communication Sep 29 Sep 29 1d
5.4 protocol to guarantee vote anonymity Nov 2 Nov 3 1d

Resources

Name Short name Type Group Email Cost
David MENTRE david Work dmentre@linux-france.org 0
John Skaller john Work 0
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-0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCqlh-0004Ms-7d for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:34:05 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCqf8-0004pg-OD for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8U2R84Y000971; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:57:10 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1096511228.12357.55.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 30 Sep 2004 12:27:08 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:34:06 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-30 at 04:19, David MENTRE wrote: > Hello, > > I have played with Planner and made a list of remaining tasks. Of > course, task duration should not be taken for granted. ;) My email is skaller@users.sourceforge.net (not shown in the chart, feel free to add). Haven't had a chance to do more than get tla working and grab the software. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Sep 29 22:39:35 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CCqr1-0007d9-Eu for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:35 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CCqqz-0007Zq-Bs for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:33 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CCqqy-0007ZP-UV for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCqqy-0007ZM-QI for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:32 -0400 Received: from [203.16.214.181] (helo=smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCqkC-0005Xe-Pr for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:32:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.200] (ppp202-133.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net [203.122.202.133]) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8U2WQ4Y007029; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:02:26 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list From: skaller To: David MENTRE In-Reply-To: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> References: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1096511546.12357.60.camel@pelican.wigram> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 30 Sep 2004 12:32:26 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:39:33 -0000 On Thu, 2004-09-30 at 04:19, David MENTRE wrote: > This is done more to test Planner that to do real planning (if such a > thing is possible for a free software project ;). I think you'd need to add a way to take the total-manhours concept of 'day' and multiply by work-rate for each developer. Eg, my task may take 1 day, but if I only spend 1/2 day per week, you'd have to cost it as 14 days for the sake of obtaining a finishing date. I'm playing with Godi, Extlib and of course Felix as well .. -- John Skaller, mailto:skaller@users.sf.net voice: 061-2-9660-0850, snail: PO BOX 401 Glebe NSW 2037 Australia Checkout the Felix programming language http://felix.sf.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 30 12:56:58 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4Ek-00029P-8O for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:56:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4Eg-000290-AZ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:56:54 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4Ec-00028W-8P for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:56:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4Ec-00028R-09 for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:56:50 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.27] (helo=mwinf0408.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CD488-000794-Ds for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:50:08 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0408.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id DC6771800127; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-2-103.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr [217.128.73.103]) by mwinf0408.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1EEA41800157; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CD480-000118-7U; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:00 +0200 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list References: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> <1096511228.12357.55.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1096511228.12357.55.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "30 Sep 2004 12:27:08 +1000") Message-ID: <87d603zop3.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: David Cc: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:56:54 -0000 Hello John, skaller writes: > My email is skaller@users.sourceforge.net > (not shown in the chart, feel free to add). Added. > Haven't had a chance to do more than > get tla working and grab the software. No worry. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 30 13:29:31 2004 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4kF-0003JK-BX for mharc-demexp-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:29:31 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4kD-0003Ij-Gb for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:29:29 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4kC-0003I7-EL for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:29:28 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4kC-0003I4-Cu for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:29:28 -0400 Received: from [193.252.22.22] (helo=mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CD4dl-0004b8-HQ for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:22:49 -0400 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id DE86418000BE for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:22:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from morgana (ARennes-303-1-2-103.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr [217.128.73.103]) by mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 471F718000A9 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:22:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from david by morgana with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CD4dj-00016X-8J for demexp-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:22:47 +0200 To: demexp-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [David MENTRE] Re: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:22:47 +0200 Message-ID: <871xgjzn6g.fsf@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: David X-BeenThere: demexp-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: demexp-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:29:29 -0000 --=-=-= Oops, forgotten the list. d. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: nobody Thu Sep 30 18:53:57 2004 To: skaller@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Demexp-dev] Tasks list X-Draft-From: ("nnml+private:list.demexp-dev" 245) References: <87wtydvsyn.fsf@linux-france.org> <1096511546.12357.60.camel@pelican.wigram> From: David MENTRE Organization: none Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:53:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1096511546.12357.60.camel@pelican.wigram> (skaller@users.sourceforge.net's message of "30 Sep 2004 12:32:26 +1000") Message-ID: <878yarzoij.fsf@linux-france.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Lines: 20 Xref: morgana mail-2004-09:185 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit skaller writes: > I think you'd need to add a way to take the > total-manhours concept of 'day' and multiply > by work-rate for each developer. Yep, good idea. Suppose I can work 2 hours per day (19h-21h). I would need 4 days to make on "real" day of work. Ok, I'll multiply number of days by 4. :) > I'm playing with Godi, Extlib and of course Felix > as well .. I wasn't probably clear but I did not expected to compute a finishing date for demexp. I was rather trying to make a complete list of tasks. Yours, d. -- David MENTRÉ --=-=-=--