From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 01:26:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhEsW-00056N-VG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 01:26:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39888) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhEsU-00054A-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 01:26:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhEsT-0005Dh-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 01:26:41 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhEsS-0005DX-Oc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 01:26:41 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhEsR-0006RP-RW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:26:39 +0100 Received: from 123.114.37.7 ([123.114.37.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:26:39 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.37.7 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:26:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:26:19 +0800 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.37.7 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VdovJwkh56VB9specw51EylFn1M= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:26:42 -0000 On 2011-12-31 21:22 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only > because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. I wonder how you reach that conclusion. If you don't use Emacs heavily on a Mac, then you don't know if it is quite usable. My experience is that it is not. John Wiegley were also disappointed by the ns-port some months ago and he has been happy using the Mac-Port. My impression is that Mac-Port is a piece of solid well-engineered software. It is a pity not more Mac users can make use of it and have to resort to nonfree software such as TextMate etc. Cheers. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 02:03:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhFRo-0006kC-Bm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:03:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhFRk-0006ij-TN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:03:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhFRi-0004Fz-OI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:03:08 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:49622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhFRi-0004EG-9B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:03:06 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.22] (p7104-ipad03akita.akita.ocn.ne.jp [221.185.218.104]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1823BC055D for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:03:02 +0900 (JST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports (was: C-g crash in C-x C-f (OSX Lion)) From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:02:30 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2273100E-CEC7-4513-88A7-6DE60A86509E@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:03:09 -0000 On 2012/01/01, at 10:47, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > > On 2011/12/31, at 22:22, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. I said that >> "in its defense" it is compatible with GNUstep by using the Cocoa API, >> which your port isn't. So, to make the current situation clear, the >> Mac OS port choice is between: >> >> 1) NS port: Cocoa API, works on Mac OS X with some issues, compatible >> with GNUstep and can work there (it needs lots of work though). Apple >> has repeatedly stated Cocoa is the preferred API for Mac OS X >> developers, especially for new software. >> >> 2) your Carbon-based port: works on Mac OS X well, can't be compatible >> with GNUstep. Apple has not been clear about Carbon's future, even >> though Carbon seems to be well entrenched at this point. > > As I've been repeatedly saying, the Mac port uses Cocoa for its > GUI implementation. If you call the Mac port Carbon-based, lots > of the applications including those bundled with Mac OS X such as > Safari.app should also be called Carbon-based. Also, I would like to note that some of recent improvements to Mac OS X and iOS are provided outside Cocoa, especially if they are not directly related to GUI. They are not classified as Carbon, but they are also C APIs and not provided by GNUstep. For example, Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) I mentioned in the `select' emulation without periodic polling is a C API and provided by both Mac OS X and iOS, but not by GNUstep. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00694.html The Core Text framework I'm using for the font backend driver in the Mac port is also a C API. Interestingly, in iOS Apple provides an advanced low-level text layout API (Core Text) only at C level, rather than copying such API (NSLayoutManager etc.) from Mac OS X Cocoa AppKit to iOS UIKit. I think this implies Apple's preference of C API to Cocoa for advanced low-level tasks that applications such as text editors want to use. Because the Mac port already uses Cocoa AppKit for GUI, the argument about Apple's preference of Cocoa to Carbon (with respect to GUI) you made above is rather pointless. I even have an impression that the Mac port usually behaves more like other Cocoa applications than the NS port does. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2011-12/msg00735.html YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 05:36:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhImJ-0003Ex-Tp for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:36:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60080) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhImH-0003BH-GI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:36:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhImG-0008Qz-HR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:36:33 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:33990) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhImG-0008Qe-9M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:36:32 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A3D9811 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:36:29 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 22303 invoked by uid 89); 1 Jan 2012 10:35:32 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 1 Jan 2012 10:35:32 -0000 Received: from [172.20.199.248] (janiphone [172.20.199.248]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2755B7FA058; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:36:29 +0100 (CET) References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: =?utf-8?Q?Jan_Dj=C3=A4rv?= Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:36:26 +0100 To: Leo X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:36:34 -0000 Hello. 1 jan 2012 kl. 07:26 skrev Leo : > On 2011-12-31 21:22 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. >=20 > I wonder how you reach that conclusion. If you don't use Emacs heavily > on a Mac, then you don't know if it is quite usable. My experience is > that it is not.=20 YMMV. I use Emacs every day on OSX and it is no different from using Emacs o= n X in my experience. But I don't use Gnus or other packages that people see= ms to have problems with. Jan D.=20= From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 05:48:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhIy2-0004fD-Dl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50447) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIxz-0004aT-9t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIxy-00029Q-4w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:39 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:36597) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIxx-00029B-Tm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:38 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36A29826 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:48:35 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 23770 invoked by uid 89); 1 Jan 2012 10:47:38 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 1 Jan 2012 10:47:38 -0000 Received: from [172.20.199.248] (janiphone [172.20.199.248]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2744C7FA058; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:48:35 +0100 (CET) References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4EFF1BE4.6020205@s wipnet.se> <7663A5DC-CA40-45B3-A0F3-5624BBB6C852@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <7663A5DC-CA40-45B3-A0F3-5624BBB6C852@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: =?utf-8?Q?Jan_Dj=C3=A4rv?= Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:48:32 +0100 To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:48:40 -0000 Hello. 1 jan 2012 kl. 02:54 skrev YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu : >=20 > What about the "Lisp evaluation inside read_socket_hook" problem > on the GNUstep port? Is your idea for Cocoa (Mac OS X 10.5 or > later) applicable to GNUstep, or do you have another idea? If GNUstep provides the same API, it is applicable, but I have to get GNUste= p up and running first to check. Their documentation says no, but that might= not be up to date. But I'm sure some solution can be found. It does not need to be the same as f= or OSX.=20 On another note, could your font backend be plugged in in Emacs 24? Would i= t be worthwhile? Jan D.=20= From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 05:49:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhIyN-0004zY-Ia for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:49:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50625) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIyK-0004w4-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:49:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIyJ-0002Zf-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:49:00 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:35816) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIyJ-0002YQ-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:59 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so30392381iac.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:48:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L3qm1GaeJASyugmUsIqSavirsZACHc3KI1ocZTs33Xw=; b=G9nf2EewmfxMFkU1P9u5P61Ez9OcJPu/AlO+KTuuvul6NfKJ7vaXJ56m9mlZwWPtlx lVGxTR0pocqCcjekB8X38bKjgJ0dGGXzYZMHltRn048srH0nMoZDVEHJvp0R0OYZV0VV yha+GdYAAePwrv/qqT+cs52RvwXoBC067/XSE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.29.6 with SMTP id p6mr46366676icc.44.1325414938485; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:48:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:48:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports From: Carsten Mattner To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Leo , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:49:01 -0000 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jan Dj=E4rv wrote: > Hello. > > > 1 jan 2012 kl. 07:26 skrev Leo : > >> On 2011-12-31 21:22 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >>> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >>> because it's for GNUstep. =A0It's quite usable on Mac OS X. >> >> I wonder how you reach that conclusion. If you don't use Emacs heavily >> on a Mac, then you don't know if it is quite usable. My experience is >> that it is not. > > YMMV. I use Emacs every day on OSX and it is no different from > using Emacs on X in my experience. But I don't use Gnus or other > packages that people seems to have problems with. Same here, except I may not miss the intl font support the Mac port is supposed to have as an advantage. I do need features from bzr trunk, so there's no option for me to try the Mac port. There may be memory leaks, but there are enough potential leaks common to emacs regardless of ports (also seen with X on Linux). Emacs on Linux configured as /configure --without-selinux --without-tiff \ --without-sound --without-dbus --without-gconf \ --without-gsettings --without-xft --without-gsettings \ --with-x-toolkit=3Dno --without-gnutls Actually I might even disable GIF, JPEG, and PNG support as nyan-mode works in text-represenation, too, and I don't require more than 7-bit ASCII. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 05:50:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhJ00-0005RJ-6Y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:50:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49708) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIzx-0005QN-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:50:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIzw-0002yz-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:50:41 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:46840) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhIzw-0002yu-15 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:50:40 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so30393624iac.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:50:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/G9iwHhl6eTikSZRo31GF1fEFC43iyjTejAro0OfRIM=; b=GweXNmYr4EnV1iGXLeiMDboQSnhIwGcCWWHkahuWC5D5WF0wkd6ND4FJXQYKK4T/Ir FzfqOIThjK3bJZgtipKogdzxJYCF6fXqFvrzALo8d0JCl0pAbWjkG2GaVkprXUuskWe9 /9G98uqLLwtNwbEJesxdFlUa4T8l3yE5RjBVc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr52815707igc.29.1325415039523; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:50:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:50:39 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports (was: C-g crash in C-x C-f (OSX Lion)) From: Carsten Mattner To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:50:42 -0000 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 2:47 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > > On 2011/12/31, at 22:22, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. =A0It's quite usable on Mac OS X. =A0I said th= at >> "in its defense" it is compatible with GNUstep by using the Cocoa API, >> which your port isn't. =A0So, to make the current situation clear, the >> Mac OS port choice is between: >> >> 1) NS port: Cocoa API, works on Mac OS X with some issues, compatible >> with GNUstep and can work there (it needs lots of work though). =A0Apple >> has repeatedly stated Cocoa is the preferred API for Mac OS X >> developers, especially for new software. >> >> 2) your Carbon-based port: works on Mac OS X well, can't be compatible >> with GNUstep. =A0Apple has not been clear about Carbon's future, even >> though Carbon seems to be well entrenched at this point. > > As I've been repeatedly saying, the Mac port uses Cocoa for its > GUI implementation. =A0If you call the Mac port Carbon-based, lots > of the applications including those bundled with Mac OS X such as > Safari.app should also be called Carbon-based. > > (snip) > >> Given those choices, the NS port seems like the best choice for >> inclusion in GNU Emacs, which is the status quo. =A0Are any of the facts >> I've presented inaccurate? > > I'm not saying about the inclusion. =A0I'm just correcting negative > statements with respect to the Mac port, many of which are made > with wrong understanding about the actual situation of Mac OS X > development, or even not based on the actual use. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Y= AMAMOTO Mitsuharu > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0mituharu@m= ath.s.chiba-u.ac.jp Can we please update the emacs wiki with a table for reference comparing the different OS X ports? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 06:10:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhJJB-0007uD-SY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:10:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38670) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJJ9-0007qk-AT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:10:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJJ7-0007HR-Vu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:10:31 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:50787) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJJ2-0007GI-Am; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:10:24 -0500 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so10583136wib.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:10:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gr5N3ZZwTLwV/qdq/9jadX9FVg15821FHnOLpBzV/7o=; b=Gazrc4pYdjkhbNFjU1TdvJCVSR7O4rm88eofhq/lGc2CdOJEi4eeCs8E190ECvMQ69 1F4ypXXM0hUaNw+hxyqlnIrS+I8zv/a3jD0ClG8wfG2Q5vgjDN/6VZy/GuJJK/tQ/xS8 PqEtFFdxK3kgVy/8b+p3IgjyUaRJ4lpo57puw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.91.201 with SMTP id cg9mr99378964wib.15.1325416222652; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:10:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: n.mavrogiannopoulos@gmail.com Received: by 10.180.99.102 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 03:10:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 13:10:22 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: S1b_TopJYF4M_WVHg7jvgq0bfTI Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 From: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos To: help-gnutls@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: gnutls-devel@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:10:32 -0000 2011/12/31 Ted Zlatanov : > NM> Hello all and best wishes for new year, > NM> =C2=A0I've put pre-built win32 dlls and the other gnutls applications= for > NM> 3.0.9 in [0]. I've managed to automate the procedure, so it could be > NM> that next releases (at least the major ones) will have the > NM> corresponding windows dlls released as well. > NM> [0]. http://homes.esat.kuleuven.be/~nikos/gnutls-win32/ > Great news! =C2=A0That lets GNU Emacs use the latest GnuTLS on all the > supported platforms. > Currently we're in a feature freeze for the Emacs pretest, but after the > next Emacs release we'll make GnuTLS 3.x required. =C2=A0That also lets u= s > ensure that we're not fighting old, already-fixed bugs. > Could the W32 releases go on the official GnuTLS site so we can point to > them in the GNU Emacs installation notes? =C2=A0And could you, when able, > publish the build script so developers can make their own W32 builds? Hi Ted, The build script is on the repository (cross.mk). I'll see what's the optimal release method of windows binaries. regards, Nikos From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 06:50:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhJvh-0003VW-Ga for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45736) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJve-0003VE-QN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJvd-0005Nr-QW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:47616) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJvZ-0005NC-2V; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:13 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhJvY-0004l9-OX; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos In-reply-to: (message from Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos on Sun, 1 Jan 2012 13:10:22 +0200) Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: help-gnutls@gnu.org, gnutls-devel@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:50:20 -0000 > Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 13:10:22 +0200 > From: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos > Cc: gnutls-devel@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > 2011/12/31 Ted Zlatanov : > > > NM> Hello all and best wishes for new year, > > NM>  I've put pre-built win32 dlls and the other gnutls applications for > > NM> 3.0.9 in [0]. I've managed to automate the procedure, so it could be > > NM> that next releases (at least the major ones) will have the > > NM> corresponding windows dlls released as well. > > NM> [0]. http://homes.esat.kuleuven.be/~nikos/gnutls-win32/ > > Great news!  That lets GNU Emacs use the latest GnuTLS on all the > > supported platforms. > > Currently we're in a feature freeze for the Emacs pretest, but after the > > next Emacs release we'll make GnuTLS 3.x required.  That also lets us > > ensure that we're not fighting old, already-fixed bugs. > > Could the W32 releases go on the official GnuTLS site so we can point to > > them in the GNU Emacs installation notes?  And could you, when able, > > publish the build script so developers can make their own W32 builds? > > Hi Ted, > The build script is on the repository (cross.mk). I'll see what's the > optimal release method of windows binaries. FWIW, I've built GnuTLS 3.0.9 natively on Windows, using MinGW and MSYS. I will make the resulting binaries available shortly, as soon as I'm done testing it with Emacs. Note that currently Emacs cannot use GnuTLS 3.0.9 on Windows, because of a couple of minor incompatibilities in Emacs itself. I'm working on a solution as we speak. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 08:25:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhLPY-0001xI-It for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:25:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54194) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhLPW-0001xC-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:25:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhLPV-0000fq-3O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:25:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhLPU-0000fk-Nt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:25:13 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhLPS-0002x6-8I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:25:10 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:25:10 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:25:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:24:59 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 23 Message-ID: <874nwfd07o.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:lKykWUTdCoU+ClWt0HCbX8PXXFQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:25:15 -0000 On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:26:19 +0800 Leo wrote: L> On 2011-12-31 21:22 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. L> I wonder how you reach that conclusion. By using the NS port on Mac OS X. L> My experience is that it is not [usable]. John Wiegley were also L> disappointed by the ns-port some months ago and he has been happy L> using the Mac-Port. OK, we'll have to disagree on that point. L> My impression is that Mac-Port is a piece of solid well-engineered L> software. It is a pity not more Mac users can make use of it and have L> to resort to nonfree software such as TextMate etc. True. But the same can be said of the NS port, in my opinion. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 09:06:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhM3g-0005xQ-RF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:06:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58579) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhM3e-0005w5-E4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:06:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhM3c-0005hF-9o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:06:42 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:51171) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhM3b-0005hB-SI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:06:40 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhM3Z-0000PS-Jp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:06:37 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:06:37 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:06:37 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:06:21 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 88 Message-ID: <87zke7bjqa.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9JHsrySvQrVEifWJoIV467IAbHs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 Cc: Adrian Robert X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:06:43 -0000 On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 10:47:38 +0900 YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: YM> On 2011/12/31, at 22:22, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. I said that >> "in its defense" it is compatible with GNUstep by using the Cocoa API, >> which your port isn't. So, to make the current situation clear, the >> Mac OS port choice is between: >> >> 1) NS port: Cocoa API, works on Mac OS X with some issues, compatible >> with GNUstep and can work there (it needs lots of work though). Apple >> has repeatedly stated Cocoa is the preferred API for Mac OS X >> developers, especially for new software. >> >> 2) your Carbon-based port: works on Mac OS X well, can't be compatible >> with GNUstep. Apple has not been clear about Carbon's future, even >> though Carbon seems to be well entrenched at this point. YM> As I've been repeatedly saying, the Mac port uses Cocoa for its YM> GUI implementation. If you call the Mac port Carbon-based, lots YM> of the applications including those bundled with Mac OS X such as YM> Safari.app should also be called Carbon-based. I'll avoid calling it "Carbon-based" in the future so there's no misunderstanding. YM> Also, I would like to note that some of recent improvements to YM> Mac OS X and iOS are provided outside Cocoa, especially if they YM> are not directly related to GUI. They are not classified as YM> Carbon, but they are also C APIs and not provided by GNUstep. YM> For example, Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) I mentioned in the YM> `select' emulation without periodic polling is a C API and YM> provided by both Mac OS X and iOS, but not by GNUstep. YM> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00694.html I recall that API was brought into Mac OS X recently and is not available in older versions of the same OS, at least for PowerPC architecture. I think it makes sense to use it opportunistically, but if using it in the NS port makes the NS port incompatible with GNUstep, then that's a harder decision. I'm not qualified to make that decision, in any case. YM> The Core Text framework I'm using for the font backend driver in YM> the Mac port is also a C API. Interestingly, in iOS Apple YM> provides an advanced low-level text layout API (Core Text) only YM> at C level, rather than copying such API (NSLayoutManager etc.) YM> from Mac OS X Cocoa AppKit to iOS UIKit. I think this implies YM> Apple's preference of C API to Cocoa for advanced low-level tasks YM> that applications such as text editors want to use. Interesting. So Apple's direction seems to be towards plain C APIs now, because of the emergence of iOS, and the profitability and popularity of that platform makes a change in that direction unlikely. That makes compatibility with GNUstep much harder for the NS port. It also means that GNU Emacs has to keep up with Apple's business choices and custom APIs to provide a great user experience on their proprietary platform. That seems like a difficult choice for the GNU project, and I'm sure it will come up again in other GNU software that aims to run on Mac OS X. I think the NS port needs to make the decision whether it will keep trying to be compatible with GNUstep, which will make the users' experience worse on Mac OS X, or if it will use these C APIs and lose the GNUstep advantage. In the latter case it may be sensible and even advantageous to GNU Emacs to merge the Mac port's improvements into the NS port, or vice versa, and have just one Mac OS X compatible port. That would leave GNUstep without a viable GNU Emacs port, though, and it may not suit your plans for the Mac port. So this is up to the Emacs maintainers; the NS port maintainers (at least Adrian Robert) and developers; and possibly you, if you want to participate in such a discussion. FWIW, as an Emacs user on Mac OS X, I think such a merge would benefit the Emacs users, especially if there was a way to provide some GNUstep compatibility. I hope all of you find a middle ground that satisfies everyone's goals and needs. YM> Because the Mac port already uses Cocoa AppKit for GUI, the YM> argument about Apple's preference of Cocoa to Carbon (with YM> respect to GUI) you made above is rather pointless. I even have YM> an impression that the Mac port usually behaves more like other YM> Cocoa applications than the NS port does. OK, I'll keep that in mind, and thank you for explaining. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 09:13:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhMAa-00071q-3D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMAY-00071g-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMAW-0006UV-HC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:50 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53189) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMAW-0006UE-Ah for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:48 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMAV-0005kN-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:13:47 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:13:47 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:13:47 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:35 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wcvIeE+2Mn1NhI30ua/8IFvt8+s= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 Cc: help-gnutls@gnu.org, gnutls-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:13:51 -0000 On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: EZ> FWIW, I've built GnuTLS 3.0.9 natively on Windows, using MinGW and EZ> MSYS. I will make the resulting binaries available shortly, as soon EZ> as I'm done testing it with Emacs. Do you want to work with Christoph Scholtes to make a GnuTLS W32 build part of the Emacs W32 build? That would be terrific and we wouldn't have to tell our users to download an extra DLL every time. That allows us to make the choice of whether we should keep in sync with the latest GnuTLS or refresh occasionally. Testing will be harder if we keep in sync, but has obvious benefits for both projects. EZ> Note that currently Emacs cannot use GnuTLS 3.0.9 on Windows, because EZ> of a couple of minor incompatibilities in Emacs itself. I'm working EZ> on a solution as we speak. Thanks! Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 09:57:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhMqc-000399-JM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:57:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40897) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMqa-000393-EB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:57:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMqZ-0003ON-7c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:57:16 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:49253) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMqZ-0003OJ-2c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:57:15 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-44-158.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.44.158]:41437 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhMqX-0000Nh-Vg; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:57:14 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Stefan Monnier Subject: shell-dir-cookie-re in Emacs 24 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:57:06 +0800 Message-ID: <87vcovh3nh.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:57:17 -0000 Emacs 24 has this in NEWS: *** New variable `shell-dir-cookie-re'. If set to an appropriate regexp, Shell mode can track your cwd by reading it from your prompt. Could you explain what the purpose of this is? The docstring says "It can be used instead of or in addition to `dirtrack-mode'", but what does it do that dirtrack-mode doesn't already do? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 10:32:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhNOH-0007EI-Ra for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:32:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48394) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNOF-0007DL-S9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:32:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNOE-00084u-KG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:32:03 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40423) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNOE-00084n-A9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 10:32:02 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNOD-0005yC-Bp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:32:01 +0100 Received: from 75.251.18.255 ([75.251.18.255]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:32:01 +0100 Received: from Adrian.B.Robert by 75.251.18.255 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:32:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Adrian Robert Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:31:45 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4EFF1BE4.6020205@s wipnet.se> <7663A5DC-CA40-45B3-A0F3-5624BBB6C852@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 75.251.18.255 (Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_8; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.21.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.5 Safari/533.21.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:32:04 -0000 Jan Djärv swipnet.se> writes: > 1 jan 2012 kl. 02:54 skrev > YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp>: > > > > What about the "Lisp evaluation inside read_socket_hook" problem > > on the GNUstep port? Is your idea for Cocoa (Mac OS X 10.5 or > > later) applicable to GNUstep, or do you have another idea? > > If GNUstep provides the same API, it is applicable, but I have to get GNUstep up and running first to check. > Their documentation says no, but that might not be up to date. > > But I'm sure some solution can be found. It does not need to be the same > as for OSX. > > On another note, could your font backend be plugged in in Emacs 24? Would it > be worthwhile? In principle it should be possible to plug in pieces from some of the font backend function implementations. It would necessitate ifdefs for GNUstep. One way to make that cleaner would be simply to split the backends for GNUstep and MacOS, using a superclass for common functionality, similar to W32 and X. As far as read_socket_hook, there has been a lot of discussion of this in the past. Yamamoto-san has always insisted there is an irremediable design issue in the NS port, but I've never been convinced of this, preferring to target and fix individual problems. Not sure if either of us can be 100% objective though. ;-) Still, when I last looked at this (years ago now), it seemed like it would be possible to switch the event loop approach without large-scale code changes. One aspect which I don't remember the status of is multi-TTY. I remember at one point the Mac port wasn't working with it. Is that still the case? If so is it a design issue relating to the event loop approach or something that could be fixed? -Adrian From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 11:10:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhNzR-0002AE-Lf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:10:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43290) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNzP-0002A7-QZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:10:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNzO-0003vs-OE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:10:27 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:65261) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhNzO-0003vm-EH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:10:26 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX400C00NJPU700@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:10:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX400CF7NKY5FB0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:10:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:10:14 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 In-reply-to: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:10:28 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:35 -0500 > Cc: help-gnutls@gnu.org, gnutls-devel@gnu.org > > On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > EZ> FWIW, I've built GnuTLS 3.0.9 natively on Windows, using MinGW and > EZ> MSYS. I will make the resulting binaries available shortly, as soon > EZ> as I'm done testing it with Emacs. > > Do you want to work with Christoph Scholtes to make a GnuTLS W32 build > part of the Emacs W32 build? Sorry, I don't understand: what is the "GnuTLS W32 build part of the Emacs W32 build"? Emacs on Windows can already be built with GnuTLS. > That would be terrific and we wouldn't have to tell our users to > download an extra DLL every time. GnuTLS is more than just one DLL. > That allows us to make the choice of whether we should keep in sync with > the latest GnuTLS or refresh occasionally. Testing will be harder if we > keep in sync, but has obvious benefits for both projects. Unless there are known serious bugs, I see no particular reason to upgrade to the next GnuTLS version, let alone keep in sync all the time. It adds unnecessary overhead to people involved in providing the binary packages. (E.g., it took me 2 days of my precious time to build GnuTLS with MinGW, due to various complications and outright bugs in the GnuTLS configury. Why would I need to go through that every month or so?) Staying a whole major revision behind is indeed undesirable, which is why I made the effort of building the latest release. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 11:38:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhOQy-00055c-0u for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51963) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOQt-00053I-G5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOQr-00082G-Po for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:51 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:37170) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOQr-00081U-1R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:49 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOQo-0006JZ-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:38:47 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:38:46 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:38:46 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:33 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 52 Message-ID: <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:nTOpMeyGcxbiqBzPqxO+Pl7Hp+E= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:38:53 -0000 On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:10:14 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:13:35 -0500 >> Cc: help-gnutls@gnu.org, gnutls-devel@gnu.org >> >> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> EZ> FWIW, I've built GnuTLS 3.0.9 natively on Windows, using MinGW and EZ> MSYS. I will make the resulting binaries available shortly, as soon EZ> as I'm done testing it with Emacs. >> >> Do you want to work with Christoph Scholtes to make a GnuTLS W32 build >> part of the Emacs W32 build? EZ> Sorry, I don't understand: what is the "GnuTLS W32 build part of the EZ> Emacs W32 build"? Emacs on Windows can already be built with GnuTLS. That sentence could be parsed both ways, sorry. I meant: do you want to work with Christoph to incorporate building GnuTLS into building Emacs itself? But it sounds like that's extra work you don't need :) >> That would be terrific and we wouldn't have to tell our users to >> download an extra DLL every time. EZ> GnuTLS is more than just one DLL. Yes, I mean we want to make the installation easier, that's all. Right now they have to get the GnuTLS binaries separately. >> That allows us to make the choice of whether we should keep in sync with >> the latest GnuTLS or refresh occasionally. Testing will be harder if we >> keep in sync, but has obvious benefits for both projects. EZ> Unless there are known serious bugs, I see no particular reason to EZ> upgrade to the next GnuTLS version, let alone keep in sync all the EZ> time. It adds unnecessary overhead to people involved in providing EZ> the binary packages. (E.g., it took me 2 days of my precious time to EZ> build GnuTLS with MinGW, due to various complications and outright EZ> bugs in the GnuTLS configury. Why would I need to go through that EZ> every month or so?) Staying a whole major revision behind is indeed EZ> undesirable, which is why I made the effort of building the latest EZ> release. OK. In that case, we should build some tests of the GnuTLS functionality in Emacs so upgrading is easier and less stressful. I can keep track of the GnuTLS releases and bump the Emacs support when we agree it's worthwhile. (You or anyone else can volunteer to do this if you want that role...) Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 12:06:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhOrD-0001ik-R1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:06:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52412) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOr7-0001gi-AD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:06:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOr6-0002xF-CW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:05:57 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:32876) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOr6-0002wo-4K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:05:56 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX400A00PYO5V00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:05:40 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX4009SZQ5FW0C0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:05:40 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:05:43 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 In-reply-to: <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:06:02 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:33 -0500 > > I meant: do you want to work with Christoph to incorporate building > GnuTLS into building Emacs itself? I don't think this is practical. GnuTLS is a very large project (as you know only too well), building it requires quite a few other packages (that are its dependencies), and doing so on Windows requires to have MSYS and many supporting tools installed, in addition and alongside the MinGW setup. Asking people who build Emacs to have all that is way too much, IMO. On top of that, the Windows build of GnuTLS is not a fire-and-forget thing, due to various problems I won't go into here. E.g., the default static+dynamic build simply fails on Windows. > Yes, I mean we want to make the installation easier, that's all. Right > now they have to get the GnuTLS binaries separately. I think downloading a single zip archive and unzipping it is much easier than adding GnuTLS to Emacs. > OK. In that case, we should build some tests of the GnuTLS > functionality in Emacs so upgrading is easier and less stressful. That would be good, yes. In particular, it would allow people who don't normally use GnuTLS related features in Emacs to reliably produce tested binaries. > I can keep track of the GnuTLS releases and bump the Emacs support > when we agree it's worthwhile. (You or anyone else can volunteer to > do this if you want that role...) It should be enough to post a message saying that you recommend upgrading for this-and-that reason. TIA From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 12:11:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhOwA-0002iv-2o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:11:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOw7-0002gj-EM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:11:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOw6-0003Xt-GQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:11:07 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:45550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhOw6-0003Xp-6j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:11:06 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX400H00QDSVB00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:11:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX400DZTQEFCU71@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:11:04 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:11:07 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Unwarranted invocation of starttls X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:08 -0000 My Emacs was not configured and built (on Windows) with GnuTLS. Nor do I need it to send email via my ISP's mail server. Nevertheless, as soon as I tried to send email after installing the GnuTLS DLLs and executables, Emacs said it is invoking STARTTLS to communicate to my SMTP server. Of course, this failed. Why is GnuTLS being invoked, and what should I add to my configuration files to avoid that and still have GnuTLS installed (for building and testing)? TIA From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 13:51:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhQV9-0002tz-9W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:51:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37439) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQV6-0002ts-PM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:51:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQV5-0005vD-8z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:51:20 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:41114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQV5-0005uc-15; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:51:19 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQUr-0002HP-TV; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:51:05 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:11:07 +0200") Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:51:02 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEUAAAACAgUAAQIAAAEw JSgBAQXXjlQ1AAACX0lEQVQ4jXVUQZKcMAwUKLkjwHewi7tthftS4QOeFP//yrbkqezmEE+Nq3Cj lrotQfKfRVNMSXWrmUgJGzH2XIQWe/i2GL+NqgHcT2LOxNVjMgOY8UjGIffiAZRVtTSnMtrxvu9p nGicWxEHFO+B4QeASxKxyu7A7ADTetuaZ5H1vl7iVTGrZj+/8TaAWwKAhCSVyI6ve+LF5Z1G1avs EZtLCak8AJQUQM8xGYByjYozaWL65cCHnSPlAaqcqOrmOgCYKgCn6cg1ReRx4Hc1QxyAJeDMVB1Y dljCms+A5KK1KvNg9arAc050PKBirZqzAx+jEO3yiLglTuWmTGVhbtANQJYsCvV5MKa6wcRZjsci Nk4QyAhYakT4C1SPGFWO4GLdhf9ITlAdgrkLcagK+fFuTUdA5tDEIzhF5hqzJokiryDtaRZhSjWm ik1qw+kT3oDGGGXOOkiIe0OA0ZlA1lTsdoq86tMg4zHA2kd1nwE1URON5E7FXqmMu4Sp7k+zqqxc waUNAuMBbiOqspiuA1cz51FLkFziYYfe7QvTXpNZjBQlHT2k95WgIbD25XyV5ysCVSUYCcDSfA0O cgwwkRPc/2eiFhoHmyml3QFIeI8aUTFbmI/qQGhvINMwDRMmbDul/S2qV0VyZQrKwzyG7+UmG1Iy +1fcSHEq3Ln397UNCRdVQDwa8FhVNrUy7RhfgXHM5uLjVWGt64WZNeqf8mpmL/UZLvfHhhwnBu1C K4YQAPigr4y5gOmY3MVbkab+BdlDhFLKp1rzduX8/ob0NWCGDtchm4f0DWOD/4jCPgGJ/4RAFsXw NQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Grace Jones's _Hurricane Dub_: "Hell Dub" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RhQUr-0002HP-TV X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326048665.9909@hI5TWDzQzcc7N6A+HsPk5g X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:51:21 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > My Emacs was not configured and built (on Windows) with GnuTLS. Nor > do I need it to send email via my ISP's mail server. Nevertheless, as > soon as I tried to send email after installing the GnuTLS DLLs and > executables, Emacs said it is invoking STARTTLS to communicate to my > SMTP server. Of course, this failed. What was the message exactly? Emacs shouldn't try to use STARTTLS if Emacs doesn't have STARTTLS capability, of course, so I'm wondering where the message is coming from. Could it be from starttls.el, for some reason or other? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 13:57:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhQao-0003aG-AD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:57:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42796) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQam-0003aA-MN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:57:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQal-0006Zr-KC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:57:12 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:55946) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQal-0006Zn-CF; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:57:11 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQaf-0002Kd-7V; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:57:05 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:51:02 +0100") Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:57:01 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAFVBMVEWYtKYNDhc+XH8UGy4l Nk8KBwsHAgS2QD4iAAACUElEQVQ4jVWTQZrbIAyF+egcoBSTtUs4QBnsWWdA7Z5x5H0W5v5H6BPB 7QyLOOhH0pMEKi3kZ62VUnpWn1cHXn+x+RN47XH6HyxmOj2UkBNcHW80A+QBxtKReVq3Drzy3p/g xXC96TeVaIBBdDHVzuqlg1l50B5Mh2JMFiUpd6CfQPugY5pF8TLOhixb77OKi+/AfwFhVsGL538g P7OnIaGDs4SbDoGeO2hcnubZ98qvlEnKhecScu8FpM9afUskmT2RmuYRifxtBsg9A4B9du/Xrdzw +Rl914RQ9jZc6BVKYyzGSn9IGTmoKZrXmNU1uii960BKD8wuu+oBJsqI5IsyFhP0jn+8OJ4o2SV1 uQLEBYP5yXwv7zn0OkJUJiUBk16Zt4gGSh0hGZWeAPNkrrHWCYFlJgCEJKsTwKbiHhClOADR2u0s H4SA3cj1IcrRJMs1Rd4PY8TuMHNaqKS3Y2/N4FAheFgTAXDaRLtu7g87txnHj2ojPHzI9I5oH/k3 7sqd296OilCIZyB0MV0wP9o+QBeFPGkpJdlYWQALwFoKMrt2h8KUylJikkEJKa0h9Ob6edRazYIm SkVNyAZNxslfFIPkAKvsmnXYLBRWSQIAl7cODLtq5Tb49QSXDiLXymxBrh3Af+8gwZrcUZf5ytyB aSNU3XxET2r8CpwASk78WVUzJLYDr3WS6bFo72AfYL9jsCUKaJ9Ac3vFXQjx6SHNPQFv8ozCKm1U aCS3E3zI5fN6vfCuZAgDXB7f+0vV63F0MOxtf9wzXpYKl+NwfwEfVM0+w/+lhAAAAABJRU5ErkJg gg== X-Now-Playing: Various's _Bustin' Out 1983: New Wave To New Beat Volume 3_: "Anne Clark - Sleeper In Metropolis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RhQaf-0002Kd-7V X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326049025.5142@5dKMhw8eFb9zbIgpZGzl4Q X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:57:13 -0000 But to answer the question you asked :-), (setq smtpmail-stream-type 'plain) but I still wonder why it thinks your Emacs can use STARTTLS even though it can't. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 14:08:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhQlw-0004K4-EQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:08:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQls-0004Jd-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:08:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQln-0007dD-45 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:08:40 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:54369) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQlm-0007Yh-Tx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:08:35 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX400E00VQJMK00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:08:26 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX400EY7VU16R50@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:08:26 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:08:29 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Message-id: <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:08:43 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:51:02 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > My Emacs was not configured and built (on Windows) with GnuTLS. Nor > > do I need it to send email via my ISP's mail server. Nevertheless, as > > soon as I tried to send email after installing the GnuTLS DLLs and > > executables, Emacs said it is invoking STARTTLS to communicate to my > > SMTP server. Of course, this failed. > > What was the message exactly? Opening STARTTLS connection to `MY-SERVER-NAME:25' > Emacs shouldn't try to use STARTTLS if Emacs doesn't have STARTTLS > capability, of course, so I'm wondering where the message is coming > from. I think the reason is that installing GnuTLS binaries installs gnutls-cli executable on PATH. At least, if I remove all the executables and leave only the shared libraries, the problem goes away. > Could it be from starttls.el, for some reason or other? Looks like that, yes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 14:11:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhQoJ-0004j5-W3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:11:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43796) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQoH-0004iv-8t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:11:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQoD-0007wc-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:11:09 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:50765) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhQoD-0007wY-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:11:05 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX400I00VFMVT00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:11:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX400948VYET0F2@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:11:03 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:11:06 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Message-id: <8339bzs0fp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:11:10 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:57:01 +0100 > > But to answer the question you asked :-), > > (setq smtpmail-stream-type 'plain) Thanks, this did the trick. Perhaps we should mention this in NEWS (assuming this is not a bug that we will fix ;-). Users who get binary distributions that were configured to use GnuTLS might bump into this like I did. > but I still wonder why it thinks your Emacs can use STARTTLS even though > it can't. Let me know how I can help. 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[98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r5sm64603406igl.3.2012.01.01.11.22.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:22:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:22:38 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> To: Leo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:22:40 -0000 On Dec 31, 2011, at 10:26 PM, Leo wrote: > On 2011-12-31 21:22 +0800, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >> I agree with your statement, but we're not "pushing" the NS port only >> because it's for GNUstep. It's quite usable on Mac OS X. >=20 > I wonder how you reach that conclusion. If you don't use Emacs heavily > on a Mac, then you don't know if it is quite usable. My experience is > that it is not. I use it every day, and wrote upwards of 100k words of (jargon-heavy) = english text with it last year, using flyspell and org. I think it = might have crashed a few times during 2011, but I'm not certain. I = typically rebuild the tip of the repository every few days, sometimes = waiting as long as a couple weeks, so I don't run months-old instances = of emacs. > My impression is that Mac-Port is a piece of solid well-engineered = software.=20 That was also my impression of the mac port, except that it is also = out-of-date with respect to emacs, it is becoming more out of date over = time, and it contributes to the continued future of emacs only = tangentially (as changes are slowly migrated into the core emacs tree). As I said before, I am very glad that the mac port exists and provides = some users with a solid emacs implementation that doesn't lack features = that they need, but it does not meet those criteria for me. Even = ignoring GNUstep, all indications suggest that that situation will only = worsen over time (multi-tty, org, cedet, bidi, lexbind, xembed, etc). = Until someone comes up with an actual proposal to remedy these problems, = the cries like ``we should be using the Mac port instead of the NS = port'' seem very much like ``after you guys build us a new bike shed, = you need to make sure that you paint it the right color.'' *Chad= From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 15:18:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhRra-0003Sy-99 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:18:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43867) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhRrW-0003Rl-Sq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:18:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhRrV-0005KV-P3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:18:34 -0500 Received: from oproxy4-pub.bluehost.com ([69.89.21.11]:37442) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhRrV-0005Ik-Gi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:18:33 -0500 Received: (qmail 24818 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jan 2012 20:18:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box401.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.201) by cpoproxy1.bluehost.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2012 20:18:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=taydin.org; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=KorMl21JKUiFD2mps1ZHlByY5c/qT/lrc4IHLzZrwqg=; b=X8Mc78vvFXAsXACGqT3zfgavA9k89gwZoZJOjF92kSlvU3Jsq7LIIYkBoaGJtW9pOdSuYQBBcRDuRfUfq/LhPS7ugvzcWgEuiiBi8Vj9WOjeuLNI0VcoQ6fvfII/rSYW; Received: from [78.189.105.178] by box401.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RhRrR-00023V-Ne for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:18:29 -0700 Message-ID: <4F00BF98.2010306@taydin.org> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:32 +0200 From: Timur Aydin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111127 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Fwd: Useful syntax highlighting (font lock) in a mixed xml lua file References: <4EFE234E.8040807@taydin.org> In-Reply-To: <4EFE234E.8040807@taydin.org> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <4EFE234E.8040807@taydin.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1590:box401.bluehost.com:taydinor:taydin.org} {sentby:smtp auth 78.189.105.178 authed with ta@taydin.org} X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 69.89.21.11 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:18:36 -0000 Hello and a happy new year to everyone! I had sent the following post to the help-gnu-emacs group, but thinking that it might require some special lisp programming, wanted to post the same question here as well... -- Timur -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Useful syntax highlighting (font lock) in a mixed xml lua file Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:47:10 +0200 From: Timur Aydin To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Hi, I am working on an xml file that has an embedded CDATA section which contains lua source code. I am mostly working on the lua code and would like that code to be syntax highlighted by emacs. When I activate lua-mode, it understandably gets confused because of all the surrounding xml. When I activate xml-mode, the xml stuff is properly syntax highlighted, but the lua code in the CDATA section is uniformly colored plain text. Is there a way to utilize font-lock mode in a sensible manner? I attempted to put the lua code in a separate file (script.lua) and then included it into the xml using DOCTYPE and ENTITY tags, but this didn't help, because I don't have any control over the software that parses this xml file. It isn't able to deal with extra xml tags. So my only hope is to be able to tell emacs to font-lock a region bounded by a CDATA tag using lua-mode and to font-lock the rest using xml-mode. Is there a way to do this? -- Timur Aydin From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 15:32:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhS5S-0004b0-CV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:32:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhS5O-0004Yt-EJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:32:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhS5N-0006fU-A8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:32:54 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:60767) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhS5N-0006fF-4I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:32:53 -0500 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so4550706lag.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:32:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=nnUqOcjVRk0cwJtIRzQEJovAguwx43NBnE2mTP+Gqig=; b=XfkxzWd1wdFS1jizWDT/+HK9RAPjYlQm6QMOn7hF5FN+LZ+6U+QbRLGROVBPwn+irm H6/c1ZzjysZKY4CZp5C6dEelTpnPlqA07awPPI9ciD5QhbIhSf08g8bnSq9jsHWk4cnI O6QHaJN55sL/8ILS+oyEJWdrQ8XWucxZ3MPsM= Received: by 10.152.103.71 with SMTP id fu7mr36857124lab.31.1325449971135; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:32:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.124.44 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 12:32:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F00BF98.2010306@taydin.org> References: <4EFE234E.8040807@taydin.org> <4F00BF98.2010306@taydin.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 21:32:30 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Useful syntax highlighting (font lock) in a mixed xml lua file To: Timur Aydin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:32:55 -0000 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 21:18, Timur Aydin wrote: > Hello and a happy new year to everyone! > > I had sent the following post to the help-gnu-emacs group, but thinking > that it might require some special lisp programming, wanted to post the > same question here as well... In principle this can be done by defining a multi major mode with mumamo (which is part of nXhtml). There are several examples in nXhtml for how to define multi major modes. (See all the .el files that have "mumamo" in their names.) > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Useful syntax highlighting (font lock) in a mixed xml lua file > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:47:10 +0200 > From: Timur Aydin > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Hi, > > I am working on an xml file that has an embedded CDATA section which > contains lua source code. I am mostly working on the lua code and would > like that code to be syntax highlighted by emacs. When I activate > lua-mode, it understandably gets confused because of all the surrounding > xml. When I activate xml-mode, the xml stuff is properly syntax > highlighted, but the lua code in the CDATA section is uniformly colored > plain text. > > Is there a way to utilize font-lock mode in a sensible manner? I > attempted to put the lua code in a separate file (script.lua) and then > included it into the xml using DOCTYPE and ENTITY tags, but this didn't > help, because I don't have any control over the software that parses > this xml file. It isn't able to deal with extra xml tags. > > So my only hope is to be able to tell emacs to font-lock a region > bounded by a CDATA tag using lua-mode and to font-lock the rest using > xml-mode. Is there a way to do this? > > -- > Timur Aydin > From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 16:18:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhSnB-0001jo-Pa for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42936) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSn9-0001ji-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSn8-00034Q-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:07 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36840) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSn8-00034M-5r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:06 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSn7-0004sE-D2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:05 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:05 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:05 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:17:54 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 52 Message-ID: <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:hjhcLxxSEDhHBjp+enzmnnI54Ho= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:18:09 -0000 On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:05:43 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:38:33 -0500 >> >> I meant: do you want to work with Christoph to incorporate building >> GnuTLS into building Emacs itself? EZ> I don't think this is practical. GnuTLS is a very large project (as EZ> you know only too well), building it requires quite a few other EZ> packages (that are its dependencies), and doing so on Windows requires EZ> to have MSYS and many supporting tools installed, in addition and EZ> alongside the MinGW setup. Asking people who build Emacs to have all EZ> that is way too much, IMO. EZ> On top of that, the Windows build of GnuTLS is not a fire-and-forget EZ> thing, due to various problems I won't go into here. E.g., the EZ> default static+dynamic build simply fails on Windows. OK. >> Yes, I mean we want to make the installation easier, that's all. Right >> now they have to get the GnuTLS binaries separately. EZ> I think downloading a single zip archive and unzipping it is much EZ> easier than adding GnuTLS to Emacs. For every Emacs user? That seems like a pain. Can we include it in the binaries Christoph is putting out, even if it's not built with Emacs itself? >> OK. In that case, we should build some tests of the GnuTLS >> functionality in Emacs so upgrading is easier and less stressful. EZ> That would be good, yes. In particular, it would allow people who EZ> don't normally use GnuTLS related features in Emacs to reliably EZ> produce tested binaries. OK. Since Emacs won't include the GnuTLS DLLs on Windows, and even if it did it doesn't have the GnuTLS server functionality, this will require some extra work. It should probably hit Savannah. >> I can keep track of the GnuTLS releases and bump the Emacs support >> when we agree it's worthwhile. (You or anyone else can volunteer to >> do this if you want that role...) EZ> It should be enough to post a message saying that you recommend EZ> upgrading for this-and-that reason. OK. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 16:18:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhSnx-00022t-Vi for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43114) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSnw-00022n-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSnu-0003B6-LU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:56 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]:45465) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSnu-0003Ay-Ew for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:18:54 -0500 Received: from [87.198.47.210] (87-198-47-210.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C26C683D9 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 21:18:53 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F00CDBB.3070601@harpegolden.net> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:18:51 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111114 Icedove/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <2273100E-CEC7-4513-88A7-6DE60A86509E@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <2273100E-CEC7-4513-88A7-6DE60A86509E@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 65.99.215.13 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:18:57 -0000 On 01/01/12 07:02, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > For example, Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) I mentioned in the > `select' emulation without periodic polling is a C API and > provided by both Mac OS X and iOS, but not by GNUstep. > libdispatch itself is, however, Apache 2.0 licensed, and has been ported to gnu+linux and packaged for debian/unstable http://packages.debian.org/sid/libdispatch0 http://chris.mowforth.com/installing-grand-central-dispatch-on-linux I haven't tried it, but the in-development ObjC2 runtime for GNUstep reportedly had its own "toylibdispatch" implementation it uses, and maybe can now use the "real" one above with some hacking, based on this ticket: http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?34627 But it's all a bit bleeding edge, stable GNUstep doesn't support blocks and stuff yet. Apart from that, note this stuff reportedly currently requires clang rather than gcc at present. http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/ObjC2_FAQ#Which_Runtime_Should_I_use.3F But anyway, still, I'd be wary of some "GNUstep doesn't support" claims, they may just be "Stable release of GNUstep doesn't support" or "GNUstep doesn't support yet". I think it really would be a shame to break emacs GNUstep compat, especially as it's clear from the above the GNUstep project is making strong efforts to keep up with apple's modernisations (whatever your opinion of apple as a company, purely technically I think most people would agree objc2 blocks etc. are a really good thing for objc...). Though maybe there could be greater separation in the code paths in emacs, say separate 'gnustep and 'macosx window systems rather than a unified 'ns, despite the seemingly large overlap. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 16:29:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhSyN-0003EV-IO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:29:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46255) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSyL-0003EP-IM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:29:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSyK-0004Rd-H5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:29:41 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:41200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhSyK-0004RY-CA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:29:40 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so12156920dak.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:29:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A9avIKHvLrWW+Myauams2tpmVaYY9YW1AKpZZp7jR94=; b=bKXpXFs2LePFx1Q0tgfvRp/93cvtfH7BdoDU1aQXqnwP9U4BT1lIxqyU6S0FYkR8Pu es4kP0rlNflKL1X4N0NThc24CWNyhoImV3eZr5CQnuSaXid0TMN+eRmNJXCQWyuwsDZF N/yDakBrQ/mx2hAiXwIIJJsp2lwDcVh5thBe8= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr115415040pbv.6.1325453379157; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:29:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 13:28:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:28:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:29:42 -0000 2012/1/1 Ted Zlatanov : > For every Emacs user? =C2=A0That seems like a pain. Not every Emacs user, and certainly not every Windows Emacs user, needs GnuTLS. We also don't include (most) image libraries. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 16:40:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhT8v-0004pw-92 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:40:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhT8s-0004pq-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:40:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhT8r-0005XK-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:40:34 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:64310) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhT8r-0005XE-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:40:33 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX500G002PO0200@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:40:01 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX500ECP2UK6RO0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:39:57 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:40:00 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: gnutls for win32 In-reply-to: <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:40:35 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:17:54 -0500 > > EZ> I think downloading a single zip archive and unzipping it is much > EZ> easier than adding GnuTLS to Emacs. > > For every Emacs user? Only those who need it. I'm not sure what fraction would that be, but if it's not very large, including GnuTLS in the binary package would unnecessarily punish too many people, by letting them download a significantly larger file. > Can we include it in the binaries Christoph is putting out, even if > it's not built with Emacs itself? We could, but see above. We currently don't even include libxpm, although it's much, much smaller. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 17:11:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhTcx-0000S1-3v for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38178) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTcu-0000PS-Jg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTct-0001RY-Ok for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:36 -0500 Received: from smtp-04.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.93]:53141) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTct-0001RQ-K4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:35 -0500 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.83-228-185-053.dsl.vtx.ch [83.228.185.53]) by smtp-04.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id 2108F29AECD; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 23:11:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 123C66614B; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:11:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella Subject: Re: Global bar to display global information Message-ID: References: <87hb5he3dy.fsf@wanadoo.es> <86k4a6pxup.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:11:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella"'s message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:13:04 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 194.38.175.93 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:11:37 -0000 > I work with this patch for two days now and it works perfectly fine. > The redisplay works fine without any extras rendering operation > (I instrumented a little bit to check that point). Thank you very much for this contribution. I probably won't have time to review this before we open up the trunk for non-bugfix patches, but it looks very promising. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 17:33:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhTxe-0002qi-7k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:33:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45719) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTxc-0002qT-6J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:33:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTxZ-0003lc-WA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:33:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:53543) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTxU-0003jP-Bl; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:32:52 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhTxS-0002hK-Ux; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:32:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:32:50 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 06:50:12 -0500) Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: help-gnutls@gnu.org, gnutls-devel@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:33:01 -0000 A reminder: please don't use the abbreviation "win" to refer to Windows. Please change that whenever you see it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 17:41:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhU6D-000402-5Z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:41:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49535) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU6A-0003wh-6d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:41:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU69-0004dE-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:41:50 -0500 Received: from smtp-04.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.93]:53331) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU69-0004d6-2C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:41:49 -0500 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.83-228-185-053.dsl.vtx.ch [83.228.185.53]) by smtp-04.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id 317C129B0F5; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 23:41:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id CEB616614B; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:41:47 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Periodical releases Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:41:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:00:05 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 194.38.175.93 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:41:51 -0000 > Maybe 2 or 4 releases as a minimum per year with less major > changes in each? For Emacs-21, the main time constraint was to get the new redisplay engine stable (with support for proportional fonts and such). Can't remember any such large change for Emacs-22, off hand. But for Emacs-23, there was a similar issue with the change to a utf-8 based internal representation and the new font handling. For Emacs-24, it was the bidi support mostly. These are fairly significant structural changes which are difficult to perform piecemeal and tend to introduce significant breakage which takes months if not years to test&debug (maybe partly for lack of a good regression test suite, but also because of very complex semantics, most of which is the result of accidental interferences between "independent" features). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 17:43:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhU7w-0004oN-Lq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49787) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU7t-0004oE-HO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU7s-0004v0-He for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:37 -0500 Received: from smtp-04.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.93]:53355) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhU7s-0004up-20 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:36 -0500 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.83-228-185-053.dsl.vtx.ch [83.228.185.53]) by smtp-04.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id 7E96C29ACAC; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 23:43:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3E3FB6614B; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:43:33 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Vyacheslav Gonakhchyan Subject: Re: Emacs 24 semantic C++ completion problem Message-ID: References: <4EFCE3A1.7030302@siege-engine.com> <87hb0i9zxt.fsf@engster.org> <878vlu9ss2.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zm80kf.fsf@engster.org> <87mxa9963m.fsf@engster.org> <87fwg18zub.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zleygr.fsf@engster.org> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87r4zleygr.fsf@engster.org> (David Engster's message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:07:32 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 194.38.175.93 Cc: "Eric M. Ludlam" , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:43:38 -0000 > We used to have the `semantic-lex-c-preprocessor-symbol-file' defcustom > autoloaded, but that would never get past the Monnier-filter. I'm not Could someone explain to me what is the problem? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 18:07:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhUUd-0007HA-Rt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32885) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhUUb-0007H4-Hh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhUUa-000740-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:05 -0500 Received: from smtp-02.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.91]:41544) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhUUZ-00073o-7O; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:03 -0500 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.83-228-185-053.dsl.vtx.ch [83.228.185.53]) by smtp-02.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id A985B5FC21; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:07:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 650E06614B; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:07:02 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: shell-dir-cookie-re in Emacs 24 Message-ID: References: <87vcovh3nh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87vcovh3nh.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:57:06 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 194.38.175.91 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:07:06 -0000 > Emacs 24 has this in NEWS: > *** New variable `shell-dir-cookie-re'. > If set to an appropriate regexp, Shell mode can track your cwd by > reading it from your prompt. > Could you explain what the purpose of this is? The docstring says "It > can be used instead of or in addition to `dirtrack-mode'", but what does > it do that dirtrack-mode doesn't already do? IIRC it's a poorly designed feature which should really be merged with dirtrack-mode (it's basically a lighter-weight version of dirtrack-mode, I think). The main distinguishing feature is that shell-dir-cookie-re tries to work even if the prompt does not contain an absolute directory (e.g. I use it with prompts which only contain the last 2 elements of the absolute file name). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 18:56:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhVGL-0003L9-7j for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:56:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51049) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVGH-0003It-UW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:56:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVGG-00038l-MZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:56:21 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47053) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVGG-00038a-9Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:56:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVGD-0005yA-An for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:56:17 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:56:17 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:56:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: GnuTLS for W32 (was: gnutls for win32) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:54:56 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 40 Message-ID: <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:O6x17wRCzzTWbVID9P2dyljV1/U= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:56:23 -0000 On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:40:00 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:17:54 -0500 >> EZ> I think downloading a single zip archive and unzipping it is much EZ> easier than adding GnuTLS to Emacs. >> >> For every Emacs user? EZ> Only those who need it. I'm not sure what fraction would that be, but EZ> if it's not very large, including GnuTLS in the binary package would EZ> unnecessarily punish too many people, by letting them download a EZ> significantly larger file. >> Can we include it in the binaries Christoph is putting out, even if >> it's not built with Emacs itself? EZ> We could, but see above. We currently don't even include libxpm, EZ> although it's much, much smaller. On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:28:58 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> Not every Emacs user, and certainly not every Windows Emacs user, JB> needs GnuTLS. We also don't include (most) image libraries. I think nowadays it's a really good idea to include GnuTLS to encrypt network connections within Emacs. Unlike image libraries, opening network connections unencrypted or through tunneling programs can actually expose secret user data and introduces many unpleasant bugs and workarounds, *especially* on W32. I think the download size is tiny either way by today's standards, but I understand the bloat concern. Can we download and install the GnuTLS opportunistically, e.g. through a GNU ELPA package? I am obviously biased, so I'd like Lars, Stefan, Chong, and any other concerned developers and users to give their opinion. Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 19:14:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhVXZ-0005ga-Kn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:14:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43095) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVXX-0005gT-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:14:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVXV-00055j-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:14:11 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:49472) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhVXU-00055d-Vg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:14:09 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.22] (p11249-ipad01akita.akita.ocn.ne.jp [220.104.219.249]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D4D7C055D; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:14:06 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:13:38 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4EFF1BE4.6020205@s wipnet.se> <7663A5DC-CA40-45B3-A0F3-5624BBB6C852@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> To: Adrian Robert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:14:12 -0000 On 2012/01/02, at 0:31, Adrian Robert wrote: > One aspect which I don't remember the status of is multi-TTY. I > remember at one point the Mac port wasn't working with it. Is > that still the case? If so is it a design issue relating to the > event loop approach or something that could be fixed? The reason why the Mac port doesn't support multi-tty with GUI (TTY-only multi-tty is supposed to work) is there's no way to detach Emacs as a GUI application from Window Server or Dock without terminating the GUI process, as far as I know. IIRC the W32 port doesn't support multi-tty with GUI. Maybe for simlar reason? One way to solve this cleanly is to seperate GUI process from Lisp process. It might be a future direction, but I don't think it's something I should do now for the port of Emacs 23. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 19:44:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhW0U-0008L4-JM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:44:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42081) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW0S-0008Kv-4r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:44:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW0Q-0008EK-U2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:44:04 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:49463) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW0Q-0008E8-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:44:02 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.22] (p11249-ipad01akita.akita.ocn.ne.jp [220.104.219.249]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA4C4C055D; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:43:58 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu In-Reply-To: <87zke7bjqa.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:43:30 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <370028AA-7464-42F8-8FD9-7C19B0650085@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87zke7bjqa.fsf@lifelogs.com > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: Adrian Robert X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:44:05 -0000 On 2012/01/01, at 23:06, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > YM> Also, I would like to note that some of recent improvements to > YM> Mac OS X and iOS are provided outside Cocoa, especially if they > YM> are not directly related to GUI. They are not classified as > YM> Carbon, but they are also C APIs and not provided by GNUstep. > YM> For example, Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) I mentioned in the > YM> `select' emulation without periodic polling is a C API and > YM> provided by both Mac OS X and iOS, but not by GNUstep. > > YM> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00694.html > > I recall that API was brought into Mac OS X recently and is not > available in older versions of the same OS, at least for PowerPC > architecture. I think it makes sense to use it opportunistically, but > if using it in the NS port makes the NS port incompatible with GNUstep, > then that's a harder decision. I'm not qualified to make that decision, > in any case. The Mac port provides a fallback using CFRunLoopSource for older versions of Mac OS X, but again it is a C API supported by both Mac OS X and iOS but not provided by GNUstep. Sometimes adopting new features inspires some idea of improvement even in fallback codes. GCD in the `select' emulation was such a case. The current fallback code made after the GCD version is more efficient than what I implemented as a `select' emulation without periodic polling in Emacs 22 Carbon port. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 19:50:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhW6T-0000WN-78 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:50:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34731) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW6R-0000WH-Kc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:50:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW6Q-0000OP-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:50:15 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:48331) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhW6Q-0000OK-FZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:50:14 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so10151446pbd.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:50:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TNZoc3IQMKGL1NC4bcXNYdandoZ1Uaz+CP/JnAJbC3M=; b=tcukgArhlM8CUMFEAx8iR7A5SXEL3LNVx/YVc0fBMKN3txMA/q1GY+xNeSaMKUErOD gHnKXQbJYeuJKWU8aMkR70lTM8QrkBAhh3gmoVpQr9BO7NMMma1jw0NjJcV3pwIIBd6k ruuySlYzVFJ/+EppKJ+CqUG3aASYeYz6OsPTg= Received: by 10.68.74.233 with SMTP id x9mr89088053pbv.74.1325465412198; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:50:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:49:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 01:49:31 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 (was: gnutls for win32) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 00:50:16 -0000 2012/1/2 Ted Zlatanov : > I think nowadays it's a really good idea to include GnuTLS to encrypt > network connections within Emacs. I've been using Emacs on Windows for fourteen years, and the only network connections I start from Emacs are between server.el and emacsclient (all of them local). I bet there are many other Windows users that do not read e-mail, use ftp, visit web pages etc. from Emacs. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 20:33:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhWml-0003P5-LR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:33:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40986) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWmj-0003Ov-Ge for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:33:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWmi-0004Pg-50 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:33:57 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:46705) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWmh-0004PZ-Uz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:33:56 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWmg-0007sb-Nd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:33:54 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:33:54 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:33:54 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:33:40 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:7+b8UiwUw9ZMO9TaNKYpehqsQl4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:33:58 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > 2012/1/2 Ted Zlatanov : > >> I think nowadays it's a really good idea to include GnuTLS to encrypt >> network connections within Emacs. > > I've been using Emacs on Windows for fourteen years, and the only > network connections I start from Emacs are between server.el and > emacsclient (all of them local). I bet there are many other Windows > users that do not read e-mail, use ftp, visit web pages etc. from > Emacs. Security default settings must be appropriate for those who are at risk. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 20:45:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhWxX-0004r2-9v for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:45:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52049) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWxU-0004pm-LK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:45:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWxT-0005JS-IG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:45:04 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:45898) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhWxT-0005JJ-D5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:45:03 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so12245843dak.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:45:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PAhoaY0g0ChwumFLyahU45MvnlGXCbhkn1PNkZ7zy+Y=; b=xWmNxuIrqnFCC0vzGI8Cg4XOannMJO/1OcGPOvQ6WBr9KD6O4rYMaYzYrEvTc2np17 xY2/BIaoCu8/ohcGlXROMgETzbAJwpMCOiD2HF+KZozJINzIWMxc5reSY6xMvbFFZJ3f aGqcUvcrvv7EqVAylQLqRQ0kUW6ACMx3Ce0JI= Received: by 10.68.191.6 with SMTP id gu6mr86546074pbc.91.1325468702510; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:45:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:44:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 02:44:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:45:05 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 02:33, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > Security default settings must be appropriate for those who are at risk. That assumes that those at risk are many, or the cost of these defaults are small. We can now discuss (without any real data, I think) just how many Windows users of Emacs are at risk, and how convenient or inconvenient is to assume distributing the GnuTLS binary vs. pointing the users to an alternative download place. And, just to put things in perspective, until now Emacs had no GnuTLS support and we haven't seen a flood of network-related security reports from Windows users. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 21:35:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhXk8-00009r-T0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:35:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48993) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhXk6-00008E-T6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:35:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhXk5-0001JE-Cg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:35:18 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53149) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhXk5-0001J4-1E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:35:17 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhXk3-0001VL-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:15 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:15 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:02 +0100 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:5rJv8pZsqmXy58nLFAiwYqh5Ob0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:35:19 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 02:33, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> Security default settings must be appropriate for those who are at risk. > > That assumes that those at risk are many, Do we implement security only when many users are at risk? > or the cost of these defaults are small. We can now discuss (without > any real data, I think) just how many Windows users of Emacs are at > risk, and how convenient or inconvenient is to assume distributing the > GnuTLS binary vs. pointing the users to an alternative download place. Including the GnuTLS binary with the official binary packages shouldn't be too costly, if we consider how rare Emacs releases are. As for the other option, GnuTLS support could be prominently advertised, not just listed as another item on NEWS. > And, just to put things in perspective, until now Emacs had no GnuTLS > support and we haven't seen a flood of network-related security > reports from Windows users. Shrugh. Security-wise, this way of thinking is responsible for lots of disasters. I wouldn't detect if someone were eavesdropping my network communications, nor would you. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 21:58:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhY6Y-0001kn-9I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:58:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46832) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhY6V-0001iS-Jq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:58:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhY6U-0003Ls-Qh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:58:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:45691) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhY6U-0003Lo-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:58:26 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so10203047pbd.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:58:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+4/ji59LJ9sgb3b+wIHizqFxlio2YUNgV1xqKEO7sqk=; b=uIwqV1CPK8LBWCmYh62kxY3CxFwb8DFdJrQGB43rtkIPaxt37wTNhyx01PgZDsBT80 BFSEeLDyVUENUBe1J2UCyYBS8gHNmXrYuKY9QYjP6555wR+ktNu/ezJMtyhpMyWpwlQ/ cVnqvbDv7WUarlDVNu9RS2SjoPiskCJcEdUTc= Received: by 10.68.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr116278110pbv.57.1325473105451; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:58:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:57:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 03:57:44 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:58:28 -0000 > Do we implement security only when many users are at risk? Irrelevant. We've implemented security, we're talking about defaults. And that's what cost-benefit analysis is for. The answer could well be yes, if the alternative to "many" is "almost no-one". > Including the GnuTLS binary with the official binary packages shouldn't > be too costly, if we consider how rare Emacs releases are. The moment a serious bug is detected in GnuTLS, you have to issue updated packages and get the word out. It's not as easy as you put it. > As for the > other option, GnuTLS support could be prominently advertised, not just > listed as another item on NEWS. Agreed. > Shrugh. Security-wise, this way of thinking is responsible for lots of > disasters. For some definition of "lots", sure. > I wouldn't detect if someone were eavesdropping my network > communications, nor would you. Considering that I'm in a very small, non-WiFi network behind a rather paranoid firewall, trust me: if someone is eavesdropping my network, Emacs is the lesser of my troubles. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 22:18:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhYPp-0003Z5-Ju for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39442) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhYPm-0003W4-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhYPl-0005Hw-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:22 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49127) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhYPk-0005Hj-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:18:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhYPi-0006CL-Bk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:18:18 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:18:18 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:18:18 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:18:05 +0100 Lines: 43 Message-ID: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:HI7+NlKNaN3dmZEKwMlvopLXYTs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:18:23 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: >> Do we implement security only when many users are at risk? > > Irrelevant. We've implemented security, we're talking about defaults. What's the difference? > And that's what cost-benefit analysis is for. The answer could well be > yes, if the alternative to "many" is "almost no-one". You can count me on. See below. >> Including the GnuTLS binary with the official binary packages shouldn't >> be too costly, if we consider how rare Emacs releases are. > > The moment a serious bug is detected in GnuTLS, you have to issue > updated packages and get the word out. It's not as easy as you put it. Granted, that's a considerable side-effect. I've looked at the release history for GnuTLS and there are lots of them. I don't how many contain fixes for serious bugs, though. [snip] >> Shrugh. Security-wise, this way of thinking is responsible for lots of >> disasters. > > For some definition of "lots", sure. Directly or indirectly, almost all of them, I would say. >> I wouldn't detect if someone were eavesdropping my network >> communications, nor would you. > > Considering that I'm in a very small, non-WiFi network behind a rather > paranoid firewall, trust me: if someone is eavesdropping my network, > Emacs is the lesser of my troubles. AFAIK Emacs can use GnuTLS for talking to the outside world too. SMTP, for instance. There are ISPs (like the one I use) that offer both encrypted and plain login on their mail servers. That's pretty serious stuff. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 01 23:03:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhZ7T-0008AB-Kg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:03:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43512) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhZ7R-0008A2-6v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:03:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhZ7Q-00011b-2J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:03:29 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:42704) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhZ7P-00011V-Sc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:03:28 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so10233724pbd.0 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:03:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SVdR5l7CM6PVj6rP/Rj1uA27avLS9ISvt3LD1huRho4=; b=evc8huR8dxhnvAHWSFwzw2cPFXbmPAcPY9Vl2fasdJCZQ1xXtDpremfJwm59kpJC0N hXOr4jNWxYyFa0oFHpkIbgT/Lkwzb02RTMbHSRW88pv2gPVLEVyTM1O5sPq7HvhY8vu/ +g6CraJswm9C6DKBO2pUJZB4jQ6zmD3ofUk44= Received: by 10.68.73.165 with SMTP id m5mr117264537pbv.108.1325477006156; Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:03:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 20:02:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:02:45 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:03:30 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 04:18, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > What's the difference? We have offered the tools and we're leaving the issue in the hands of the u= sers. > Granted, that's a considerable side-effect. I've looked at the release > history for GnuTLS and there are lots of them. I don't how many contain > fixes for serious bugs, though. If we start distributing GnuTLS binaries, it's suddenly our (=3D "someone's") work to know when a release fixes serious bugs and when it does not. > Directly or indirectly, almost all of them, I would say. Yes, it's already clear that's your opinion. Another way of seeing it is, we haven't seen many security reports because the users have not had many security incidents. > AFAIK Emacs can use GnuTLS for talking to the outside world too. SMTP, > for instance. There are ISPs (like the one I use) that offer both > encrypted and plain login on their mail servers. Of course. And then we're back to square one. Does anyone know how many people *on Windows* uses Emacs to connect to the wide, wild world? How many of them read e-mail from Emacs, for example? I don't (I very much doubt there's any reliable statistics), and if I had to bet, I'd bet on the side of few. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 01:05:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhb1V-0007nH-SN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:05:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35293) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhb1S-0007km-VI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:05:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhb1R-0003nf-B2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:05:26 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:49396) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhb1Q-0003nZ-PN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:05:25 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.22] (p11249-ipad01akita.akita.ocn.ne.jp [220.104.219.249]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77D82C055D; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:05:20 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu In-Reply-To: <4F00CDBB.3070601@harpegolden.net> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:04:55 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <81AE2085-13F7-4BF8-87A2-EFF57AF4D039@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <2273100E-CEC7-4513-88A7-6DE60A86509E@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> <4F00CDBB.307060 1@harpegolden.net> To: David De La Harpe Golden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:05:28 -0000 On 2012/01/02, at 6:18, David De La Harpe Golden wrote: > I think it really would be a shame to break emacs GNUstep compat, = especially as it's clear from the above the GNUstep project is making = strong efforts to keep up with apple's modernisations (whatever your = opinion of apple as a company, purely technically I think most people = would agree objc2 blocks etc. are a really good thing for objc...). = Though maybe there could be greater separation in the code paths in = emacs, say separate 'gnustep and 'macosx window systems rather than a = unified 'ns, despite the seemingly large overlap. If GNUstep is going to such a direction that it adopts C APIs that are supported by both Mac OS X and iOS (e.g., Core Foundation, Core Graphics, Core Text and Image I/O), then many parts of the code of the Mac port will become usable also in GNUstep. As a result of transition to 64-bit and Cocoa GUI, many uses of C APIs in the Mac port already fall into this category. Of course, there will remain some Mac OS X-specific parts, and as it is shown by the current NS port status, practice will not always work as in theory. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 01:55:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhboG-0005g9-8G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:55:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46027) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhboD-0005eK-UE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:55:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhboD-0000c6-3A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:55:49 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:45713) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhboB-0000bp-51; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:55:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408BB39E8008; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:55:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tNsZpi5fB1HT; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ACA1F39E8007; Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:55:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:55:45 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: gnutls-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , help-gnutls@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:55:50 -0000 On 01/01/12 14:32, Richard Stallman wrote: > A reminder: please don't use the abbreviation "win" to refer to > Windows. Please change that whenever you see it. Thanks for the reminder. I looked in the Emacs source code for instances of this problem, and proposed a patch to fix them in Bug#10421. http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10421 There are some other instances that come from upstream code in Gnulib; I'll propose fixes for them upstream. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 03:14:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhd2U-0003oi-9K for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:14:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34405) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhd2S-0003n7-6e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:14:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhd2Q-0008Gx-Qi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:14:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58465) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhd2Q-0008Gs-MK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:14:34 -0500 Received: from [155.69.16.96] (port=43941 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhd2P-000681-S3; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:14:34 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: shell-dir-cookie-re in Emacs 24 References: <87vcovh3nh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:14:26 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:07:01 -0500") Message-ID: <87aa66ttb1.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:14:37 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> Emacs 24 has this in NEWS: >> *** New variable `shell-dir-cookie-re'. >> If set to an appropriate regexp, Shell mode can track your cwd by >> reading it from your prompt. > >> Could you explain what the purpose of this is? The docstring says "It >> can be used instead of or in addition to `dirtrack-mode'", but what does >> it do that dirtrack-mode doesn't already do? > > IIRC it's a poorly designed feature which should really be merged with > dirtrack-mode (it's basically a lighter-weight version of > dirtrack-mode, I think). The main distinguishing feature is that > shell-dir-cookie-re tries to work even if the prompt does not contain > an absolute directory (e.g. I use it with prompts which only contain > the last 2 elements of the absolute file name). OK, I'll merge it into dirtrack-mode and get rid of shell-dir-cookie-re. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 03:47:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhdY1-0006gY-18 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47481) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdXw-0006gE-Rk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdXt-0003TT-7V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:08 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58805) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdXr-0003RB-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdXr-0002KJ-8x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:54:56 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 (was: gnutls for win32) References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:47:11 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:54:56 -0500 > > I think nowadays it's a really good idea to include GnuTLS to encrypt > network connections within Emacs. Unlike image libraries, opening > network connections unencrypted or through tunneling programs can > actually expose secret user data and introduces many unpleasant bugs and > workarounds, *especially* on W32. I think the download size is tiny > either way by today's standards, but I understand the bloat concern. > Can we download and install the GnuTLS opportunistically, e.g. through > a GNU ELPA package? Why are we talking only about Windows? Do packages of Emacs 24 development snapshots on GNU/Linux come with GnuTLS in the same package? If they do, then I agree that the Windows binaries should also include GnuTLS; but if not, I don't see why Windows should be special in this regard. We don't want to confuse users by providing functionality only on some platforms. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 03:48:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhdZH-00071U-79 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48112) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdZF-00071O-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdZE-0003tG-52 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:29 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58880) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdZE-0003tC-2M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:28 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhdZD-0002Sv-HN; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:27 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:02 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:48:30 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:35:02 +0100 > > I wouldn't detect if someone were eavesdropping my network > communications, nor would you. I hope your wireless connections are encrypted on the network level, then (mine are). GnuTLS will encrypt only some of the traffic, but not all of it. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 04:47:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RheUZ-0005An-3x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:47:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51022) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RheUW-0005Ag-Hq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:47:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RheUV-00022I-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:47:40 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:50243) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RheUU-00021q-N9; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:47:38 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so31735153iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:47:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=H2T470J63THkuZ6ltbvwvdZ93GrB+1dQ5YCLww4O2uk=; b=IojR+bNjK4xlKMktwv45eusi0TJy8hfPvB7X7UqrxQWMMmEycPVKS9B1NgjpjtWoZQ qpFbNaf6uZngUy3FGS77mKppaaXCXAYQwLqKs8/OFxbENk5wkBk88WtbKw3eP8/VJA4A MUSC++xSiEICmsnFxbxWbYcq2WeB+7cUfolaM= Received: by 10.50.12.162 with SMTP id z2mr56469351igb.3.1325497657481; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.21.211]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g7sm1740557igv.7.2012.01.02.01.47.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:47:35 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F094F1CFE; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:47:27 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:47:27 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500") Message-ID: <87y5tqfnbk.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:47:41 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > Why are we talking only about Windows? Do packages of Emacs 24 > development snapshots on GNU/Linux come with GnuTLS in the same > package? The Debian and Ubuntu packages depend on the following: libgnutls26 (>= 2.9.11-0) Windows does not have a package system that supports dependency, so it cannot be compared directly. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 05:40:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhfJa-0001oS-3A for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:40:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44296) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfJX-0001lU-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:40:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfJW-0000LF-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:40:23 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:53131) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfJW-0000LB-22 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:40:22 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so31811535iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:40:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=nPi2LIatGix46M1SNjHgmEw8bJxdC/gxumkt442DqEg=; b=Net+iupot8ERNpdNZMrJVcJWxA8OcY3s5EmApptVCUHXdidUSq+jCzB2xvwnKie/tX fEuicJrAmtGd4zky6vdFaw6z9rXVeYQ9AmUX52X1G/B1KDK2Ox6zxwOsKkkw3fNeOxiz pqlITEIY0M1bap2n/nLcVqkJVwUgcpMSFP7VU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr56385633igc.29.1325500820601; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 02:40:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:40:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:40:24 -0000 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Maybe 2 or 4 releases as a minimum per year with less major >> changes in each? > > For Emacs-21, the main time constraint was to get the new redisplay > engine stable (with support for proportional fonts and such). > Can't remember any such large change for Emacs-22, off hand. > But for Emacs-23, there was a similar issue with the change to a utf-8 > based internal representation and the new font handling. > For Emacs-24, it was the bidi support mostly. > > These are fairly significant structural changes which are difficult to > perform piecemeal and tend to introduce significant breakage which takes > months if not years to test&debug (maybe partly for lack of a good > regression test suite, but also because of very complex semantics, most > of which is the result of accidental interferences between > "independent" features). The solution for that is to let it evolve in a branch for longer than one release cycle while merging finished changes to the release branch and deliver those features sooner. That way finished features like say package support, built-in colour theme support, cc-mode and other mode updates, etc., which are less invasive, are delivered in a stable release faster. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 05:42:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhfLu-0002cC-8J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:42:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44845) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfLq-0002X9-4D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:42:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfLp-0000ck-1S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:42:45 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:32853) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfLm-0000c4-64; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:42:42 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD151C0F59C; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:42:39 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: 829a5snPwUMCHs0pi7ZJguZcljpJfVpbnbjrxdyccRY= Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-98-212.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.98.212]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 58EEA1C0004D; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:42:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 84B40CA29C; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:42:38 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-Yow: Then, it's off to RED CHINA!! Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:42:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:48:27 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:42:47 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > I hope your wireless connections are encrypted on the network level, > then (mine are). Hopefully you have disabled WPS. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 05:46:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhfPR-00033O-Nn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:46:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfPO-00033A-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:46:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfPN-0001D9-Q4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:46:26 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:61809) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfPK-0001Ci-NR; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:46:22 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so31820158iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:46:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3afb75HhdnZv87Dul5G8KLKiEk1S01wm4g0q1Stwees=; b=cu3WsfGEkJHRqZFE2JOVPIvN0VtjF7tpV0V0IbEwbfxBk2dxI5W+Ovnd7dMiG+3XGx AL8SaCqRlzLCEc8QxPnXPD/Rkkc1vT4AbaIEdYg9ek59Dos39jrLL/ex/ERVs63wgIYt 99AL/YdiODBBIjuxSBx8NEb9oIaPXd5RDPm0k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr50717749icw.36.1325501180770; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 02:46:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:46:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 From: Carsten Mattner To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:46:28 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/01/12 14:32, Richard Stallman wrote: >> A reminder: please don't use the abbreviation "win" to refer to >> Windows. =A0Please change that whenever you see it. > > Thanks for the reminder. =A0I looked in the Emacs source code > for instances of this problem, and proposed a patch to fix them > in Bug#10421. > > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D10421 > > There are some other instances that come from upstream code > in Gnulib; I'll propose fixes for them upstream. I'm not sure this is a good idea. "win32" is used in the same way as "posix" to refer to a set of platform APIs. "win" alone should be expanded. "w32" is something which few users will imagine to grep for when searching for it. "win32" and "windows" look reasonable to me, while I agree that "win" is not descriptive enough. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 06:20:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhfwX-0006gm-Ro for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60533) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfwW-0006gf-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfwV-0005jR-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:40 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60537) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfwU-0005jM-Ur for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:38 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhfwT-0000iv-Vn; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:37 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Andreas Schwab In-reply-to: (message from Andreas Schwab on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:42:36 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:20:41 -0000 > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: Óscar Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:42:36 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I hope your wireless connections are encrypted on the network level, > > then (mine are). > > Hopefully you have disabled WPS. Never even considered it as a possibility. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 06:36:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhgBh-0000On-8k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgBe-0000NK-HX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgBd-0007v0-7q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60765) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgBd-0007uw-54 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:17 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgBc-0001b4-Qz; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:36:16 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Carsten Mattner In-reply-to: (message from Carsten Mattner on Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:40:20 +0100) Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:36:19 -0000 > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:40:20 +0100 > From: Carsten Mattner > Cc: Emacs developers > > > These are fairly significant structural changes which are difficult to > > perform piecemeal and tend to introduce significant breakage which takes > > months if not years to test&debug (maybe partly for lack of a good > > regression test suite, but also because of very complex semantics, most > > of which is the result of accidental interferences between > > "independent" features). > > The solution for that is to let it evolve in a branch for longer than > one release cycle Been there, done that. In Emacs, this generally means leave the code to bit-rot into oblivion. Examples: . The person who wrote the multi-tty code disappeared after merging the branch onto the trunk; if we would have waited longer with the merge, we would have no one who knew the code enough to merge it and take care of merge complications. . The bidi branch actually did bitrot, for at least 3 years, until yours truly decided it was now or never, and somehow managed to find time to do the job. Knowing now how much effort it took, I can assure you that work would never have been done had Stefan and Chong not supported me all the way and urged me to merge early. A year from now, I cannot even promise I will have enough time and health left to do anything comparable. > That way finished features like say package support, built-in colour > theme support, cc-mode and other mode updates, etc., which are less > invasive, are delivered in a stable release faster. That's a nice theory, but implementing it in practice needs a much larger and probably different organization than Emacs development we have now. Unlike many other projects, Emacs is a hodgepodge of a myriad of separate and almost independent subsystems, many of which require very specific domain knowledge and target different audiences, sometimes quite narrow ones. Exposing significant changes to a wide audience is perhaps the only practical way of testing those changes efficiently; leaving them on a branch would mean features remain largely untested (read: buggy) for many months if not years. If we want to move in the direction of periodical releases, we will have to come up with a plan that includes organizational and procedural changes, and we will have to convince ourselves that such a plan is doable in practice. First step in the plan should be to bring much more developers on board. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 06:52:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhgRU-00027Q-I2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:52:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37118) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgRS-00027K-4q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:52:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgRR-0001bT-8r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:52:38 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:35059) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgRN-0001aS-JQ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:52:33 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so12557386dak.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:52:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=i7ARLYEAgRsroF3mvOpnLRBR6ShfLYbkI6rmlIJDINc=; b=Bj/qCDNEhCmljcmx+Z52TOEJ+ajtw+sLms4VdfRGox4S+T4FcbGd9ovQrwxZT0xQFv TrlBkbgHz4pgK8M4WKbIbzCQyzjDk1TkXdf+aOeH2fXuBgOLYNb8C1DOreknRTEHftHs jWvKStgupiLteZMNBmMCvqv06IDwwuRWcpvaE= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr120501597pbv.40.1325505152149; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:52:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 03:51:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 12:51:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 To: Carsten Mattner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:52:39 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:46, Carsten Mattner wrote: > I'm not sure this is a good idea. > "win32" is used in the same way as "posix" to refer to a set of > platform APIs. "win" alone should be expanded. And yet, imagine that Microsoft were to add some program, library or product called "Windows Win", and that we had to refer to it in the documentation. What would we call it? "Windows Lose"? Really? And would that really help the users in any way, or just confuse them? I won't deny the power of words. But sometimes, a name is just a name. The crusade against "win32" is a bit silly IMHO; it's hard to believe that anyone, outside of a few old timers, reads it as "a form of praise". =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 07:17:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhgpO-000796-Dv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:17:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46045) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgpL-00078x-VW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:17:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgpK-0005UX-Rf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:17:19 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:39440) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgpJ-0005Tr-9b; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:17:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B501A60005; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 04:17:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AGnYv3FpfV6; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 04:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5134EA60004; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 04:17:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F01A04C.4090201@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:17:16 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:17:20 -0000 On 01/02/12 02:46, Carsten Mattner wrote: > "win32" is used in the same way as "posix" to refer to a set of > platform APIs. That's one name, but it's not the only one and it's not necessarily even the most common one in practice. As discussed in , Microsoft prefers the name "Windows API" to "Win32 API", and "Windows API" is quite commonly used. Using this common name to talk about the API helps us to avoid the problem with "win". For Emacs's own identifiers, common practice is to use "w32_" as a prefix; perhaps that should be changed to something else at some point (when 64-bit Windows takes over?), but this should be an independent issue. The proposed patch by and large leaves "w32" alone, since "w32" doesn't run afoul of the "win" issue. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 07:22:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhgug-0008Iz-6X for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:22:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46674) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhgud-0008Ga-Nt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:22:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhguc-0006tb-Dc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:22:47 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:34392) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhgub-0006sh-WD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:22:46 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2012 12:22:43 -0000 Received: from gw.ac.upc.edu (EHLO localhost) [147.83.30.3] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2012 13:22:43 +0100 X-Authenticated: #12333383 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+a/u5ZzliaGsm31tTMsHqoJsJAffdGv4jaecgbXC Pa5+U/Yv8Xmaol From: =?utf-8?Q?Llu=C3=ADs?= To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Completion bug in gud or comint References: <87r5041rct.fsf@ginnungagap.bsc.es> <87bor5k8b1.fsf@ginnungagap.bsc.es> <87d3bi0yz0.fsf@ginnungagap.bsc.es> <87pqfdgk7o.fsf@gnu.org> <8762h5dj0f.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: Chong Yidong , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:22:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8762h5dj0f.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:48:32 +0800") Message-ID: <87boqm70ra.fsf@ginnungagap.bsc.es> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:22:48 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > Chong Yidong writes: >> Llu=C3=ADs Vilanova writes: >>=20 >>> * Start M-x gdb with "gdb -i=3Dmi" >>> * type "so" >>> * complete-symbol >>> * wait forever >>> * C-g >>> * The "(gdb) " prefix disappears and "so" expands into "source" >>=20 >> I see the problem. It arises from the fact that the >> completion-at-point function in gud.el was written without proper >> gdb-mi.el support. I'll see if I can put together a solution. > Fix committed to trunk (revision 106732); please check if the problem is > resolved. Now it seems to work perfectly (for the few tests I did); thanks a lot. Lluis --=20 "And it's much the same thing with knowledge, for whenever you learn something new, the whole world becomes that much richer." -- The Princess of Pure Reason, as told by Norton Juster in The Phantom Tollbooth From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 07:26:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhgyG-0000bv-UI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:26:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgyE-0000an-A4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:26:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgyC-0007f1-Vr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:26:30 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55343) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhgyC-0007ep-MH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:26:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhgy9-0001Bt-N1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:25 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:25 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:25 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:15 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAJFBMVEUYFB7anIb61puUbGUH AwReT1x0W2FLRFYFAQO3hHY1NEwEAAEPFf7CAAACKklEQVQ4jWWUvYvbQBDFB2JIcLcKBFxa3bUR OdBVLrZYSJmsDFcFhNekTnQLqlUsqNIJAttdcwj8Fxj2n8ublSzrfA9/vt/Mm1n5g2jU6VawrLbv 7Ajq/a05WGuJamsfb4DVWhNVh+OxXtTipgtjlmMH1EKVNqbMlusMnG33VZFBV2BtzTbiS/g5XX2k V5pllsBG6b3BgCWw41So4Mm993TZsuJ0feCGMvdeXMBUbGKQF4LBJaaI4aYo/RXA3mtznyGjNyX7 MzigA6WQKfIJDLED4bnv4PwruwisvVyfwsTSPiYJqnjH+vRaZPfHp7xLtp1I0i1AXPJgT1WZ94fq N9sQQIGD5tiSd8Vz7kUaCcHnXXr2MNx3OAU3UckGhsWNRMrTdfnMYPSjy9qITZ/lyQhQHEeyPPI3 vkvJ8IipGtqKsY1Bxi1jB07AL7YbRBUmi5ci/ZK+Eb4+FS8skr/JW7BbD0XJH82nrzdgqMy3Cp/B O4Csn8FJ2X78kXVJ+orZd9ndM0n8OFTbyKY9Oyd3tOvE51/0+IckiHMNOgJQ45oP2cNKriRJpxRK lVQqgKtG7lZSNg4dkt/hgTksGaXo4kvn2smMFs2vnYsdM1Bzmbs2IJGm6DlxEs7QzJVLIEm5diJT q5rAPNRJt5yCDuXO41Jnt4z6HkIbcOIW5+ACWa/X9gXgHFyAieuBJDxjnxeinaTAZVzPk/iOPxc6 0ZligHJNPAWaQ8tFbfgPNI+ilrAYiKoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Hood's _Rustic Houses Forlorn Valleys_: "The Light Reveals The Place" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:/arcglcl0XC6Euiq9h5F08ehcWM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:26:31 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > I hope your wireless connections are encrypted on the network level, > then (mine are). GnuTLS will encrypt only some of the traffic, but > not all of it. With all the attacks on wifi security being revealed weekly, I would consider wifi-level encryption a moot point now. If you don't do end-to-end encryption now (i.e. TLS), and you use wifi, then it's likely that someone who's really interested can probably listen in to whatever you're doing on the network. Sort of. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 07:41:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhhCo-00034K-1y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37861) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhCk-000349-0Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhCf-0001Ln-8L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:29 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:33644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhCf-0001Lj-5V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:25 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhCe-0002DS-AP; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:24 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-reply-to: (message from Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:15 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:41:32 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:26:15 +0100 > Mail-Copies-To: never > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I hope your wireless connections are encrypted on the network level, > > then (mine are). GnuTLS will encrypt only some of the traffic, but > > not all of it. > > With all the attacks on wifi security being revealed weekly, I would > consider wifi-level encryption a moot point now. You mean, attacks on WPS "encryption"? Or on home networks that let anyone in the neighborhood connect and surf at will? Don't dismiss wifi encryption and security so quickly, just because a bunch of people with unknown interests wrote something in some blog, or because too many people who don't have a clue leave their networks wide open to anyone. > If you don't do end-to-end encryption now (i.e. TLS), and you use > wifi, then it's likely that someone who's really interested can > probably listen in to whatever you're doing on the network. I never said that wifi encryption is a replacement for other encryptions, just that someone who cares about eavesdropping should _also_ have her wifi encrypted. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 07:57:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhhSf-0007vn-7x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:57:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35857) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhSd-0007vf-39 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:57:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhSb-0003PB-MY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:57:55 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:50362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhSZ-0003Oe-SQ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:57:52 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32008302iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:57:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oXytd/qxrJB3WMJ7ipUQYhjxlvXtCkoBC56UWj5EFnE=; b=E+XYMK4eoEs3QXVn731meIF43Ly88M7/6fWSXcd6np4zA/5zwQzOL0M0eDLKmAMkQr VU4YWd1YlIgzJYFY6ByKxSTEX5GWAiNRfJECsrOi926wAn7SSNp06o2Cjsi460OrWJ+d ntqzn5DxEUUZkzcLJfHtZY5o4sCZeb9QgmdlI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr56858142igc.29.1325509070694; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 04:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 04:57:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:57:50 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:57:56 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:40:20 +0100 >> From: Carsten Mattner >> Cc: Emacs developers >> >> > These are fairly significant structural changes which are difficult to >> > perform piecemeal and tend to introduce significant breakage which tak= es >> > months if not years to test&debug (maybe partly for lack of a good >> > regression test suite, but also because of very complex semantics, mos= t >> > of which is the result of accidental interferences between >> > "independent" features). >> >> The solution for that is to let it evolve in a branch for longer than >> one release cycle > > Been there, done that. =A0In Emacs, this generally means leave the code > to bit-rot into oblivion. =A0Examples: > > =A0. The person who wrote the multi-tty code disappeared after merging > =A0 =A0the branch onto the trunk; if we would have waited longer with the > =A0 =A0merge, we would have no one who knew the code enough to merge it > =A0 =A0and take care of merge complications. > > =A0. The bidi branch actually did bitrot, for at least 3 years, until > =A0 =A0yours truly decided it was now or never, and somehow managed to > =A0 =A0find time to do the job. =A0Knowing now how much effort it took, I > =A0 =A0can assure you that work would never have been done had Stefan and > =A0 =A0Chong not supported me all the way and urged me to merge early. = =A0A > =A0 =A0year from now, I cannot even promise I will have enough time and > =A0 =A0health left to do anything comparable. > >> That way finished features like say package support, built-in colour >> theme support, cc-mode and other mode updates, etc., which are less >> invasive, are delivered in a stable release faster. > > That's a nice theory, but implementing it in practice needs a much > larger and probably different organization than Emacs development we > have now. =A0Unlike many other projects, Emacs is a hodgepodge of a > myriad of separate and almost independent subsystems, many of which > require very specific domain knowledge and target different audiences, > sometimes quite narrow ones. =A0Exposing significant changes to a wide > audience is perhaps the only practical way of testing those changes > efficiently; leaving them on a branch would mean features remain > largely untested (read: buggy) for many months if not years. > > If we want to move in the direction of periodical releases, we will > have to come up with a plan that includes organizational and > procedural changes, and we will have to convince ourselves that such a > plan is doable in practice. =A0First step in the plan should be to bring > much more developers on board. okay, this may not work for the current development workflow. Another proposal: Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often with bug releases if needed. Emacs trunk has never been unstable for me. I'm even using the NS port and it's still stable. I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if there were more release and therefore standard emacs Linux distros was more up to date. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 08:06:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhhaz-0001v7-DU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:06:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49001) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhaw-0001v0-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:06:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhav-0004qN-Mr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:06:30 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:48883) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhar-0004pI-UZ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:06:26 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32020835iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:06:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nP9ljilAGL/kocs4v9dtIQCp6yuggz/n+wF6B3vMYvw=; b=LCRPiT6az2YfV+iKzX6q/J1dDfOO6tfQIRFnL1MImtQ2SOELxnC5iSQdriSA3y8Q78 sntdXhMJ/nc7e5mFw1GT/MtcFCos29W71XERbO2hDIUZjfQ/r6FqgitoTuMOG5TDfkUW Dssm61Zw0DNEm6SE2wEinnVKEggd3Zm0L7JmI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.186.226 with SMTP id fn2mr58199174igc.25.1325509585163; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:06:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F01A04C.4090201@cs.ucla.edu> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> <4F01A04C.4090201@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:06:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 From: Carsten Mattner To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:06:32 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/02/12 02:46, Carsten Mattner wrote: > >> "win32" is used in the same way as "posix" to refer to a set of >> platform APIs. > > That's one name, but it's not the only one and it's not necessarily > even the most common one in practice. =A0As discussed in > , > Microsoft prefers the name "Windows API" to "Win32 API", I have a hard time to decipher/interpret the following unambiguously: "(Note that this was formerly called the Win32 API. The name Windows API more accurately reflects its roots in 16-bit Windows and its support on 64-bit Windows.)" > and "Windows API" is quite commonly used. =A0Using this common > name to talk about the API helps us to avoid the problem with "win". It's the same imprecise definition as for posix. > For Emacs's own identifiers, common practice is to use "w32_" > as a prefix; perhaps that should be changed to something else > at some point (when 64-bit Windows takes over?), but this should > be an independent issue. =A0The proposed patch by and large > leaves "w32" alone, since "w32" doesn't run afoul of the "win" > issue. I never understood what win64 is with the same code written for "win32" compiled for x86_64 being a "win64" binary. win32 was probably introduced during the Windows 95/Windows NT move to differentiate 16-bit APIs. They shouldn't have introduced a new name in the first place, but it's one of the companies which strives to give stuff a new name and sell it as something brand new. A preprocessor definition or compiler switch would have been enough. This is probably what you get when marketing is involved when naming internal technical stuff. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 08:09:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhhdj-0002K6-OT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:09:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49726) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhdh-0002JZ-PG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:09:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhdg-0005DQ-Ro for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:09:21 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhdd-0005Bt-Sm; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:09:17 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32024933iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:09:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ym4+CvUKAJl2BfkypRgXaPLsK9OOjIIROp3oMkvC2UE=; b=xIjoFsWDAa7If18nC607U3AKHd4+z6ul33Q1v1ewu0o7Ya7ZEDci/Pi6dL0ltGwz34 shRU4Bm+mHRv5C7K+CDcC8Xp9rdik85fAC8XoueVbbA1B3AjrhUkm5HP4WlmC26+SzfM UUdwLm8zVCglemS1Fjx4bX2052K36wKhSkvF4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.29.6 with SMTP id p6mr49692168icc.44.1325509757394; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:09:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 From: Carsten Mattner To: Juanma Barranquero Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:09:22 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:46, Carsten Mattner > wrote: > >> I'm not sure this is a good idea. >> "win32" is used in the same way as "posix" to refer to a set of >> platform APIs. "win" alone should be expanded. > > And yet, imagine that Microsoft were to add some program, library or > product called "Windows Win", and that we had to refer to it in the > documentation. What would we call it? "Windows Lose"? Really? And > would that really help the users in any way, or just confuse them? > > I won't deny the power of words. But sometimes, a name is just a name. > The crusade against "win32" is a bit silly IMHO; it's hard to believe > that anyone, outside of a few old timers, reads it as "a form of > praise". Is the intent to hide or deny the existence of Windows? In any case, I believe this wastes resources better applied for real Emacs work. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 08:16:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhhkJ-00034X-Ae for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:16:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52803) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhkG-000323-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:16:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhkG-0006L5-7M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:16:08 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:49347) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhkC-0006KE-JB; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:16:04 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so10535089pbd.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:16:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Yv5rjzxMWCiG0A5lfDSNqIrKP46ewsjUbUxqKVnqN2A=; b=IDkNlIcM4qCO2FwRbCcy0lJNg8tpwaVG5xi8wrNMEpqCHTYAKMkiYGm2LXXeuzPpqs s4TTYnUa8rU+AWziKRzvBy71Ht5LCiovjXaDt/Ik1fwyuG8GgU5CjzzxcYpl069sK7ES FY8BZ2YF4/EkY4qZLdNmg6krDvA3qEZUOymRI= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr98501743pbw.23.1325510163544; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:16:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:15:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:15:22 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 To: Carsten Mattner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:16:09 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 14:09, Carsten Mattner wrote: > Is the intent to hide or deny the existence of Windows? Belittle, I suppose. > In any case, I believe this wastes resources better applied for real > Emacs work. Agreed. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 08:18:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhhmU-0003OP-LA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:18:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53206) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhmR-0003Na-U6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:18:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhmR-0006XF-1A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:18:23 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:52467) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhmP-0006Wg-0N; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:18:21 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A919706B2; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:18:13 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 025331A3174; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:18:12 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: rfc2047-decode-region In-Reply-To: <83mxa8stev.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wr9drqyx.fsf@gnu.org> <87obuoewk3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83mxa8stev.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:18:12 +0900 Message-ID: <87mxa61bvv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:18:24 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > > It's all in RFC 5322. Doesn't everybody know that by heart? ;-) > > I didn't find a place that would explain how to compute 5322 from > 2047. I didn't either; that's why you need to know the RFC by heart. Seems a reasonable requirement for participation in a project which chooses its infrastructure based on email controllability! :-) > Thanks. I needed it to decode a region of the "rmail view buffer", > where we display a single message, which includes all the displayed > headers, including From, To, CC, Subject, etc. So from your > explanations I understand that the ADDRESS-MIME argument can stay nil > in that case, correct? Yes, if I were you I'd set it to nil. Setting it to t makes some *extremely* rare addresses (eg <"an\ RFC\-legit\ address"@gnu.org>, and that is *not* a joke, it's the kind of example that ADDRESS-MIME is intended for) look nicer. But it probably would do really confusing things to program strings in unstructured fields (eg, Lisp regexps in the Subject field), and I think those are much more likely than mailboxes whose names contain special characters. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 08:29:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhhxD-0004FW-1C for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:29:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53923) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhxB-0004FP-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:29:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhhxA-0008Ke-7X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:29:29 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:40838) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhhx7-0008K5-GX; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:29:25 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so12616093dak.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:29:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3ZVIzIyGbquZ+GQWUX0+P8jiPVPzP9v+wLaqTTYgMxI=; b=NgokW2PbxC+83dcEProPtPdM/KNgNx1iTXeJglI14dmPa8OOfMQw3qan5b4oHXDzXL JwXPSqVg8QxzncqPkCQRGK3GorFzxA2XcICcVMHnchjdlsiIhtdZN8XiY34jI8uXX9ID 6Lvs/+aDdGkCujkA8i/9IKFpLblITsdmyoir0= Received: by 10.68.191.6 with SMTP id gu6mr91295757pbc.91.1325510964171; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:29:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:28:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:28:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 To: Carsten Mattner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:29:30 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 14:09, Carsten Mattner wrote: > Is the intent to hide or deny the existence of Windows? And do not forget all the references to "MS-DOG", which I personally find both infantile and a bit insulting. If denying any supposed positive inference in "win32" merits such effort, fighting the negative connotations of that particular idiomatic use of "dog" would be even worthier, as dogs are quite wonderful creatures (recent archaeological findings have pushed the estimated domestication of wolves into dogs back from 12,000 to 30,000+ years, so we've been friends time enough to start showing them some respect...). =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma (Sorry: I cooperate with a rescue org specializing in saving Spanish Greyhounds, which quite likely are the most abused breed in the world, and see dogs disrespected and brutalized almost daily. I'm touchy in all things dog.) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 09:03:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhiU6-0007Ve-SM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:03:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48310) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhiU4-0007Sp-In for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:03:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhiU3-0004aI-Qf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:03:28 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:45276) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhiU1-0004Zl-S4; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:03:26 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634DB186DEC5; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:03:17 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: YRnMcz4gyJZ2gELuvRI1Hdk4FVl4YVIOjdL8LKnBB84= Received: from linux.local (ppp-88-217-98-212.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.98.212]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1D3241C00065; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:03:17 +0100 (CET) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A149B1E52D9; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:03:15 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-Yow: I'll clean your ROOM!! I know some GOOD stories, too!! All about ROAD Island's, HUSH Puppies, and how LUKE finds GOLD on his LAND!! Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:03:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:41:24 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.10 Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:03:29 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > You mean, attacks on WPS "encryption"? WPS is not an encryption, but a configuration system with very weak authentication. (Did you mean WEP?) Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 11:16:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhkZB-0002Lg-O1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39796) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkZ8-0002LZ-V9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkZ7-0004xv-IH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:50 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54933) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkZ7-0004xf-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:49 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkZ4-0002Gr-EQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:16:46 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:16:46 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:16:46 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:34 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 57 Message-ID: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LUsUV+ugrW3Qe1tuTVn5ww71R5E= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:16:51 -0000 On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:02:45 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> If we start distributing GnuTLS binaries, it's suddenly our (= JB> "someone's") work to know when a release fixes serious bugs and when JB> it does not. I stated I would do that monitoring. In any case, it's better to have the *ability* to issue updates than not to. In that context, it seems more sensible to package GnuTLS support as an ELPA package so it can be upgraded without upgrading Emacs as a whole. So perhaps we just need a versioned "gnutls-w32" ELPA package to DTRT. W32 users can choose to install it or it can be installed by default, whichever we or the distribution decides. We can do similar solutions for other platforms that need it, but I think W32 is the only one. >> AFAIK Emacs can use GnuTLS for talking to the outside world too. SMTP, >> for instance. There are ISPs (like the one I use) that offer both >> encrypted and plain login on their mail servers. JB> Of course. And then we're back to square one. Does anyone know how JB> many people *on Windows* uses Emacs to connect to the wide, wild JB> world? How many of them read e-mail from Emacs, for example? I don't JB> (I very much doubt there's any reliable statistics), and if I had to JB> bet, I'd bet on the side of few. I'd guess we have at least 100 W32 users. That number will certainly grow if Emacs can offer better foolproof connectivity. If you ever tried to set up CLI helpers for W32 Emacs network connectivity before GnuTLS came along, you know it was a big deterrent to adoption. On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:54:56 -0500 >> >> I think nowadays it's a really good idea to include GnuTLS to encrypt >> network connections within Emacs. Unlike image libraries, opening >> network connections unencrypted or through tunneling programs can >> actually expose secret user data and introduces many unpleasant bugs and >> workarounds, *especially* on W32. I think the download size is tiny >> either way by today's standards, but I understand the bloat concern. >> Can we download and install the GnuTLS opportunistically, e.g. through >> a GNU ELPA package? EZ> Why are we talking only about Windows? Do packages of Emacs 24 EZ> development snapshots on GNU/Linux come with GnuTLS in the same EZ> package? If they do, then I agree that the Windows binaries should EZ> also include GnuTLS; but if not, I don't see why Windows should be EZ> special in this regard. We don't want to confuse users by providing EZ> functionality only on some platforms. Absolutely; my post was about GnuTLS in general but so far, W32 packaging has been the issue (which was remedied by Nicos' work, which started this thread). Mac OS X and GNU/Linux packaging for GnuTLS is not a problem. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 11:20:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhkcX-0002vg-7S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:20:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50499) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkcU-0002vW-TQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:20:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkcU-0005VA-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:20:18 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55698) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkcU-0005V0-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:20:18 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhkcS-0003vb-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:20:16 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:20:16 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:20:16 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:17:46 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 10 Message-ID: <87pqf29iz9.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:3ce070QhgQrEJVl5KNCIPLt7Fxk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:20:19 -0000 On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> In any case, I believe this wastes resources better applied for real CM> Emacs work. I think we should stick to W32 because, so far, we have. That way we can search docs and discussions for "W32" reliably. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:31:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhljl-0000Go-NZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:31:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55157) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhljj-0000Eq-95 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:31:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhlji-0005dD-18 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:31:51 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:40591) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhljh-0005d9-PT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:31:49 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX600B00M0NZK00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:31:45 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX600BNCM0WTL30@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:31:45 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:31:49 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Periodical releases In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Carsten Mattner Message-id: <83sjjyqad6.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:31:52 -0000 > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:57:50 +0100 > From: Carsten Mattner > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often > with bug releases if needed. Emacs trunk has never been > unstable for me. I'm even using the NS port and it's still > stable. That could work, but it still needs: . a much more disciplined commit process, probably coupled with 1 more branch (3 instead of just 2) . more active patch review process (currently, lots of serious bugs are detected months if not years after being introduced) . several volunteers to review and update the manuals to keep them in sync with development You see, even for few months worth of development, the amount of changes in the Emacs repository is so large that it is impossible to release a dependable and accurately documented version without much more active "continuous integration" style maintenance. You may consider it stable enough for your workflows, but someone who constantly uses a certain mode that became broken by a release will feel otherwise. Now, a simple calculation will show that if it takes about a year to finish a pretest of a major release, doing a release every 2 months will need at least a month of pretest-style fixups. Unless this month is invested in parallel with development, 2 months become 3 months, which then need 1.5 months of fixups, and so on, ad nauseam. And without even a test suite with good coverage, how do you do a continuous integration? IOW, even this limited goal needs preconditions to become practical. Volunteers are welcome. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:32:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhlk1-0000cD-RP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:32:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55327) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhljz-0000bQ-4H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:32:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhljx-0005iJ-Tr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:32:07 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:38491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhljx-0005iC-Qo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:32:05 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so14475983obc.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:32:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QsBOsHQ5YEmsOc5zjkAXC/VquZtv0OjPgMxVtGM9SkA=; b=MzIesKIG7lHsfx+zlvgM4ao9QIsLMpnsd+v6K1LHVppY1q1+5MP2UOW1BTocNf8Ggj 8TOifKue4IHRRFxXtazmp3Nlo7HpMww/xkC9KFG+vqzwzjhVQ7CBnncNbdGsd2hr7ZGV 0CN/hZP5OV7pWKs+3nf2yj3+CI9STLUifkG4o= Received: by 10.182.59.41 with SMTP id w9mr12226702obq.70.1325525525076; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 09:32:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.150.72 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:31:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:31:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:32:08 -0000 2012/1/2 Ted Zlatanov : > I stated I would do that monitoring. =C2=A0In any case, it's better to ha= ve > the *ability* to issue updates than not to. We already have the ability to issue updates, because any update is just getting the info to the user (whether they download a binary tarball from us or somewhere else, the only real trouble is getting the user to know that there's a security issue to be fixed in the first place). In that regard, announcing a new release or announcing that the user should upgrade their GnuTLS binary is largely irrelevant. But anyway, the issue is not just monitoring. Someone has to build updated binary GnuTLS packages for Windows. That Eli just did it does not mean we can burden him with the task forever. >=C2=A0In that context, it seems > more sensible to package GnuTLS support as an ELPA package so it can be > upgraded without upgrading Emacs as a whole. =C2=A0So perhaps we just nee= d a > versioned "gnutls-w32" ELPA package to DTRT. =C2=A0W32 users can choose t= o > install it or it can be installed by default, whichever we or the > distribution decides. I think my objections regarding the burden we heap upon ourselves are equally valid (or not) for an ELPA package, with the only mitigating factor that at least in that case a security upgrade does not force a reissue of Emacs tarballs. > I'd guess we have at least 100 W32 users. Worldwide? ;-) >=C2=A0That number will certainly > grow if Emacs can offer better foolproof connectivity. =C2=A0If you ever > tried to set up CLI helpers for W32 Emacs network connectivity before > GnuTLS came along, you know it was a big deterrent to adoption. I suppose you're talking of corporate environments or the like. I still find hard to believe that's a representative sample of Windows users. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:33:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhllT-0001GJ-5B for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:33:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55569) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhllR-0001Ey-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:33:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhllQ-00061F-8r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:33:37 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:56231) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhllQ-0005wa-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:33:36 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX600A00M1E2C00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:33:33 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX6006KRM3WUR11@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:33:33 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:33:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: rfc2047-decode-region In-reply-to: <87mxa61bvv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Message-id: <83r4ziqaa6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wr9drqyx.fsf@gnu.org> <87obuoewk3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83mxa8stev.fsf@gnu.org> <87mxa61bvv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:33:38 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:18:12 +0900 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > It's all in RFC 5322. Doesn't everybody know that by heart? ;-) > > > > I didn't find a place that would explain how to compute 5322 from > > 2047. > > I didn't either; that's why you need to know the RFC by heart. Seems > a reasonable requirement for participation in a project which chooses > its infrastructure based on email controllability! :-) Well, I didn't really want to understand email. I just wanted to fix the display of some RFC 2047 encoded headers in Rmail, when the message is not a MIME message. > > Thanks. I needed it to decode a region of the "rmail view buffer", > > where we display a single message, which includes all the displayed > > headers, including From, To, CC, Subject, etc. So from your > > explanations I understand that the ADDRESS-MIME argument can stay nil > > in that case, correct? > > Yes, if I were you I'd set it to nil. Thanks. That's what I did in the first place, but I was unsure whether it was TRT. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:34:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhlmU-0001th-Hr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:34:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48335) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhlmP-0001og-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:34:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhlmK-00069I-7h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:34:37 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:56500) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhlmJ-00069E-VJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:34:32 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX600A00M0T2A00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:34:21 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX6002Z9M560TG2@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:34:19 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:34:23 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <83pqf2qa8w.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:34:40 -0000 > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:03:15 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > You mean, attacks on WPS "encryption"? > > WPS is not an encryption, but a configuration system with very weak > authentication. Right, thus the quotes. I guess the joke wasn't a successful one... > (Did you mean WEP?) That, too. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:39:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhlqr-000459-JJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:39:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhlqo-00040x-UM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:39:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhlqn-0006kQ-TH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:39:10 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:58076) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhlqn-0006kM-KX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:39:09 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX600A00MC23G00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:39:08 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX6005N8MD7Y0A1@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:39:08 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:39:12 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:39:11 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:34 -0500 > > On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:02:45 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > JB> If we start distributing GnuTLS binaries, it's suddenly our (= > JB> "someone's") work to know when a release fixes serious bugs and when > JB> it does not. > > I stated I would do that monitoring. Yes, thanks. > In any case, it's better to have the *ability* to issue updates than > not to. In that context, it seems more sensible to package GnuTLS > support as an ELPA package so it can be upgraded without upgrading > Emacs as a whole. It makes sense, but how is ELPA easier than any other download address? All that's needed is to download a single zip archive and unzip it. Why does it matter if it comes from ELPA or from elsewhere? > So perhaps we just need a versioned "gnutls-w32" ELPA package to > DTRT. W32 users can choose to install it or it can be installed by > default, whichever we or the distribution decides. The w32 "distribution" is just a single zip file which you unzip wherever you want it, and add the bin subdirectory to PATH. A zip file cannot "decide" anything. The alternatives are: . have GnuTLS as part of the binary zip . have GnuTLS as a separate zip alongside the binary zip (we do this for libxpm) . have GnuTLS available for download from some other address From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 12:54:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhm64-0002cG-C9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:54:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40373) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhm62-0002aw-5W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:54:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhm60-0008UD-Sv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:54:54 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:46018) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhm60-0008U9-LM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:54:52 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX600H00N0F5J00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:54:50 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX600GKNN3DZE50@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:54:50 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:54:54 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83mxa6q9ap.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 Cc: Christoph Scholtes X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:54:55 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:34 -0500 > > so far, W32 packaging has been the issue (which was remedied by > Nicos' work, which started this thread). I've put the w32 binary package I compiled myself here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/gnutls-3.0.9-w32-bin.zip/download Christoph helped to verify this package works with the current trunk, including if the binary was built with headers from the older 2.10 version that is in widespread use on Windows. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 13:45:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhmsc-000632-5c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:45:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34552) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmsZ-0005za-3J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:45:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmsX-00068V-Lp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:45:03 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60444) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmsX-000681-A5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:45:01 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmsW-00052y-1d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:45:00 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:45:00 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:45:00 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:51:10 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 34 Message-ID: <87hb0euee9.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rk's?= _Biophilia_: "Hollow (Original 7 minutes version)" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:hQNZWJweHkmjY1GhgyaGPboWfKc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 18:45:04 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > The w32 "distribution" is just a single zip file which you unzip > wherever you want it, and add the bin subdirectory to PATH. A zip > file cannot "decide" anything. > > The alternatives are: > > . have GnuTLS as part of the binary zip Having the network connections from Emacs be encrypted has traditionally been a tricky issue. The user had to install additional binaries and do additional manual configuration to make stuff work. With Emacs 24, almost all of the "built-in" interfaces (web, mail, news, etc) now do encryption by default, if possible. On Linux, it sounds like the major distributions, at least, are going to make Emacs depend on libgnutls, which means that most Linux users are going to start seeing encryption working by default, with no configuration. So the question is: What do we want to do here about the binary distributions that we do ourselves? (And by "ourselves", I mean you, obviously. :-) If the Windows version of Emacs 24 is the only one that doesn't have network encryption enabled by default -- wouldn't that be less than ideal? If it's easy and possible to package up the gnutls libraries in the distribution, wouldn't that be a win, overall? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:05:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhnCj-0007di-3O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60533) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCf-0007a6-FQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCe-0000Zd-FQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:49 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:63260) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCc-0000ZR-Sf; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:47 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q02J5hUk001890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:43 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q02J5fQa025322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:41 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q02J5dNf022396; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:05:40 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.57.64) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:05:39 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" , "'Carsten Mattner'" References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com><4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Subject: RE: gnutls for lose32 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:05:27 -0800 Message-ID: <9FAD73C934F14E418EC94F0107D5A631@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczJUpKLVCuCPFq7RqiPCnkuOlY63wALIJIA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4F020008.0076,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , 'Paul Eggert' , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:05:50 -0000 > And do not forget all the references to "MS-DOG", which I personally > find both infantile and a bit insulting. If denying any supposed > positive inference in "win32" merits such effort, fighting the > negative connotations of that particular idiomatic use of "dog" would > be even worthier, as dogs are quite wonderful creatures (recent > archaeological findings have pushed the estimated domestication of > wolves into dogs back from 12,000 to 30,000+ years, so we've been > friends time enough to start showing them some respect...). >=20 > =A0 =A0 Juanma >=20 > (Sorry: I cooperate with a rescue org specializing in saving Spanish > Greyhounds, which quite likely are the most abused breed in the world, > and see dogs disrespected and brutalized almost daily. I'm touchy in > all things dog.) Love it. I think it was the following documentary that pointed out the possibility that humans might never have moved beyond hunter-gatherer to = settled agriculture and animal domestication were it not for dogs. If true, = that's pretty important! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html - Drew, whom no one on the Internet can tell is a dog From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:06:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhnCv-000837-KW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60635) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCp-0007ug-DV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCn-0000cB-R2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:59 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:63296) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCl-0000az-BJ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:05:55 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q02J5sYQ001999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:54 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q02J5rlZ009725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:53 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q02J5qjN022455; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:05:52 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.57.64) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:05:52 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Carsten Mattner'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: Subject: RE: Periodical releases Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:05:40 -0800 Message-ID: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczJTikJ3+DUK1meTN+9z6fVZ43uhwAL1/1g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4F020012.00BD,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:06:03 -0000 > Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often > with bug releases if needed. No, no, no, please. Just the opposite. Bake Emacs _more_ fully before releasing it. Get it right. Document it well. Mention all user-visible changes in NEWS. Fix outstanding bugs. Richard had exactly the right approach to releasing Emacs, IMO. He was attacked by some because they felt the release cycle was too short. I, for one, appreciated his thoroughness and insistence on high quality. > Emacs trunk has never been unstable for me. Oh. So please continue to use the trunk. It's been quite unstable (not to mention incomplete) at various times for others; believe me. And that's been true forever. It's normal. To expect anything else is naive, IMHO. > I'm even using the NS port and it's still stable. So please continue to use it. > I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if > there were more release and therefore standard emacs > Linux distros was more up to date. The problem you raise here is apparently one of the difficulty/nuisance of building Emacs. It is not about how often to publish releases. Publishing non-release MS Windows binaries periodically has been _very_ helpful (thank you again to those who have created and posted the builds). At least on that platform, that is a solution to the problem you raise. If the same cannot be done for other platforms then the solution would be to somehow simplify the difficulty/nuisance of building Emacs on those platforms. But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building be an excuse for releasing the product before it is fully baked. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:06:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhnD1-0008KJ-VW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60760) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCy-0008BJ-Kp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCw-0000fu-Qn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:08 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:36348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhnCu-0000d8-Nu; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:06:04 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q02J5oin015914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:50 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q02J5nPC029748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:05:49 GMT Received: from abhmt104.oracle.com (abhmt104.oracle.com [141.146.116.56]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q02J5mjN022435; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:05:48 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.57.64) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:05:48 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" , "'Carsten Mattner'" References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com><4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> Subject: RE: gnutls for lose32 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:05:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczJRQ5+OzdgoYGBQhivZobEtmy9YgAOABzg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4F02000F.0069,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , 'Paul Eggert' , rms@gnu.org, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:06:10 -0000 > The crusade against "win32" is a bit silly IMHO; it's hard to believe > that anyone, outside of a few old timers, reads it as "a form of > praise". +1, from one old-timer http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10421#26 From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:09:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhnG5-0002Fz-5P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:09:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54221) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmC7-0000rD-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:01:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmBw-00018c-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:01:05 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:44323) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmBw-000187-DB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:01:00 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RhmBp-0006gT-SF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:00:53 -0800 Message-ID: <4F01F0D1.7060907@dancol.org> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:00:49 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs development discussions Subject: Why setsid for subprocesses? X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig11DD5164B3A6F2A2E23264E0" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:09:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig11DD5164B3A6F2A2E23264E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed that we call setsid during process creation, falling back to setpgrp/setpgid on older systems. Why setsid and not just setpgrp? The reason I ask is that I'm hacking posix_spawn [1] support into Emacs, and posix_spawn doesn't provide a way for the child to become a session leader. The best it can do is setpgrp. My hunch is that we don't actually need setsid, but just use it as an extra check to make sure child processes don't try to join process groups outside Emacs' purview. Is this hunch right? If so, nothing should go wrong if our children stop being session leaders, yes? Or does being a session leader affect the pty handling in a way that's slipping my mind? Thanks. [1] posix_spawn provides a moderate performance boost for OS X and a HUGE performance boost for Cygwin [2]: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/posix_spawn.html= --------------enig11DD5164B3A6F2A2E23264E0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8B8NEACgkQ17c2LVA10VuqqQCfVYsHVbDucTwwV35YYByUNnBr wIcAn1KpMtX4zfar7UxZy8Oscg3ExB5J =/Y/4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig11DD5164B3A6F2A2E23264E0-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:33:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhndM-0002ta-21 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:33:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33470) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhndJ-0002tU-2K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:33:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhndH-0003TP-EO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:33:21 -0500 Received: from randomsample.de ([83.169.19.17]:45495) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhndH-0003SA-1Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:33:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=randomsample.de; s=a; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=KoLV5xUiDrD+6oDPWjycUGYMM1GRfpUpjerbYeEXep4=; b=s0CSoaPb0Hz3/wI9GdZY3G5xYCvyhvON1aXMMF9gaWh+UUpO58muRtu/sSWcu0IJ5/mkCk01iFEuWvodCqa1LwxKFHmDWG04LLZEVb8mywXWL+saZASmEUlsYlS6sgkN; Received: from dslc-082-083-052-059.pools.arcor-ip.net ([82.83.52.59] helo=spaten) by randomsample.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhnd8-0001zF-9A; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:33:10 +0100 From: David Engster To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Emacs 24 semantic C++ completion problem In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:43:33 -0500") References: <4EFCE3A1.7030302@siege-engine.com> <87hb0i9zxt.fsf@engster.org> <878vlu9ss2.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zm80kf.fsf@engster.org> <87mxa9963m.fsf@engster.org> <87fwg18zub.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zleygr.fsf@engster.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Stefan Monnier , Vyacheslav Gonakhchyan , "Eric M. Ludlam" , emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:33:08 +0100 Message-ID: <87aa65hpcb.fsf@engster.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 83.169.19.17 Cc: "Eric M. Ludlam" , Vyacheslav Gonakhchyan , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:33:22 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> We used to have the `semantic-lex-c-preprocessor-symbol-file' defcustom >> autoloaded, but that would never get past the Monnier-filter. I'm not > > Could someone explain to me what is the problem? The general problem is this: Say you have a custom variable V, belonging to package P, which is initialized with some list of filenames. When you require P, it will use V's value to set up some things, but will only do so once. How should the user add further filenames to V in his .emacs? If he first requires P, then any changes to V will be moot. Hence he has to look up the default value of V and then use setq-default, with the additional files added. The simplest solution (or rather: cop-out) is to autoload the defcustom, but I remember you saying that this is a no-no. [To add a few details: `semantic-lex-c-preprocessor-symbol-file' is a variable containing a list of C header files from which pre-processor #defines will be included when parsing further C(++) files. Since Semantic goes to great lengths to minimize startup time (a common complaint back in the days), this will only be done when semantic/bovine/c is actually loaded. It then parses those files and populates `semantic-lex-c-preprocessor-symbol-map' with the macros it finds, which is a c-mode local variable. Now, you may say that this is bad design, and I tend to agree, but setting up the c-mode parser is a pretty delicate issue.] -David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 14:54:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhnxz-0006sk-MH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:54:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58971) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhnxw-0006pT-SF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:54:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhnxv-0005tS-RV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:54:40 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:36032) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhnxv-0005tN-OP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:54:39 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32553177iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:54:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=GId5QnRYW/KAmO+AtZ38jABcFy0+Nz0YJKTQQsllJxU=; b=SYxLHVlbjy/yEdJzCwjnf6DyYaPhJQG1FPIi0xGRH8tg+Cv2RNJN09b/yzFVUC9JH5 eYm3VueJKk4HH98KsJ1b2X1wiZ5uFGeDwT8Y2b8p9w44ssPcPAntdYxmU2QTa8jEOWq3 ujpBi2Obn559sfj9CYrHNIGqlovjiqBWmkDbY= Received: by 10.42.148.136 with SMTP id r8mr52333396icv.1.1325534078502; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l28sm168178473ibc.3.2012.01.02.11.54.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:54:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: chad In-Reply-To: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:54:36 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> To: Emacs developers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:54:41 -0000 As far as I can tell, the primary motivator for more frequent releases = of emacs itself is `so emacs doesn't drift so far from its sub-parts', = like as Gnus, Org, CEDET, CC-mode (in the past), etc. This is a = laudable goal, but emacs doesn't seem to currently have the developer = cycles necessary to handle this - releases are frequently held up by = documentation changes and reviews even now, with the infrequent releases = we have. Hopefully, the included package system can cover this gap, once it's = fully spread through the userbase; users will be able to easily opt-in = to newer Gnus releases (for example) via elpa(s)/packages. If we get = this working reliably, we could even remove some packages from the emacs = core, in favor of more frequent package-based releases. While this = model might have once seemed burdensome to users, several years of such = systems (for example, in web browser extension updates) will have = already trained them to deal with such things before emacs starts doing = something similar. That's my hope, anyway. *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 15:29:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhoVg-0003LN-1l for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:29:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39547) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhoVe-0003LH-1g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:29:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhoVc-0001C1-0q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:29:30 -0500 Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com ([74.208.5.67]:46866) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhoVb-0001Bk-QP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:29:27 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2012 20:29:26 -0000 Received: from c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net (EHLO bagel) [174.56.1.147] by mail.gmx.com (mp-us005) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2012 15:29:26 -0500 X-Authenticated: #67821228 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/3UTpkPfT3oW2OLnepLmp4EgEa1FjnOtsVSoujxW 91JH8DDEnUtwT9 From: Eric Schulte To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:29:20 -0700 Message-ID: <87wr9997bz.fsf@gmx.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.208.5.67 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Carsten Mattner' , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:29:31 -0000 >> I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if >> there were more release and therefore standard emacs >> Linux distros was more up to date. > > The problem you raise here is apparently one of the difficulty/nuisance of > building Emacs. It is not about how often to publish releases. > > Publishing non-release MS Windows binaries periodically has been _very_ helpful > (thank you again to those who have created and posted the builds). At least on > that platform, that is a solution to the problem you raise. > It seems that the fix here is not to change the Emacs development and release process, but rather to encourage package maintainers to provide packages tracking the Emacs trunk. The debian emacs-snapshot package described as "The GNU Emacs editor (development snapshot)" returns the following which is certainly many months (maybe years?) out of date. $ emacs --version GNU Emacs 23.2.1 Best, -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 15:42:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhoiC-0004yt-HJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:42:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhoi9-0004yh-IT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:42:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhoi8-0002Pt-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:42:25 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:59626) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhoi7-0002Pl-Nz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:42:24 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2012 20:42:22 -0000 Received: from gw.ac.upc.edu (EHLO localhost) [147.83.30.3] by mail.gmx.net (mp071) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2012 21:42:22 +0100 X-Authenticated: #12333383 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18b4w125fgbHyc/UOqraxkLTfcu4ZErzBIh9eiKxY Vs6V984pJnpa9V From: =?utf-8?Q?Llu=C3=ADs?= To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Drew Adams" , "'Carsten Mattner'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:41:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:05:40 -0800") Message-ID: <87obul3khp.fsf@ginnungagap.bsc.es> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Carsten Mattner' , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:42:26 -0000 Drew Adams writes: [...] >> I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if >> there were more release and therefore standard emacs >> Linux distros was more up to date. > The problem you raise here is apparently one of the difficulty/nuisance of > building Emacs. It is not about how often to publish releases. > Publishing non-release MS Windows binaries periodically has been _very_ helpful > (thank you again to those who have created and posted the builds). At least on > that platform, that is a solution to the problem you raise. > If the same cannot be done for other platforms then the solution would be to > somehow simplify the difficulty/nuisance of building Emacs on those platforms. > But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building be an excuse for > releasing the product before it is fully baked. If building is the only problem, then you might like this (note: debian only): http://emacs.naquadah.org/ Lluis -- "And it's much the same thing with knowledge, for whenever you learn something new, the whole world becomes that much richer." -- The Princess of Pure Reason, as told by Norton Juster in The Phantom Tollbooth From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 16:23:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhpLh-0001rS-2P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:23:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60634) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpLd-0001ps-KI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:23:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpLc-0006xn-M2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:23:13 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:48199) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpLa-0006xV-L2; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:23:10 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32665097iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:23:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w7+vp5L/OgGC/PukkfvZ9A8oprF7HzPHXvg2oZTerWk=; b=RA81yLStQBdevzYlGJELF2b28euDeDcos7vsrXBUV+ubpB9VqdneXDa9bQzfx1MOVQ +/iN/z8AwkMB3KXDCWoCTifCdZ5+4Cxb1107u4oJ9qLjcy62MM4uduWIid6aYT1wUjqK 6nS2TrP7BEAkBj/HEiDfg7wmuetvT4xnTy5a0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr52674653icw.36.1325539389601; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:23:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:23:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:23:14 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often >> with bug releases if needed. > > No, no, no, please. =A0Just the opposite. > Bake Emacs _more_ fully before releasing it. > > Get it right. =A0Document it well. =A0Mention all user-visible changes in= NEWS. =A0Fix > outstanding bugs. > > Richard had exactly the right approach to releasing Emacs, IMO. =A0He was= attacked > by some because they felt the release cycle was too short. =A0I, for one, > appreciated his thoroughness and insistence on high quality. > >> Emacs trunk has never been unstable for me. > > Oh. =A0So please continue to use the trunk. > > It's been quite unstable (not to mention incomplete) at various times for > others; believe me. =A0And that's been true forever. =A0It's normal. =A0T= o expect > anything else is naive, IMHO. > >> I'm even using the NS port and it's still stable. > > So please continue to use it. > >> I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if >> there were more release and therefore standard emacs >> Linux distros was more up to date. > > The problem you raise here is apparently one of the difficulty/nuisance o= f > building Emacs. =A0It is not about how often to publish releases. > > Publishing non-release MS Windows binaries periodically has been _very_ h= elpful > (thank you again to those who have created and posted the builds). =A0At = least on > that platform, that is a solution to the problem you raise. > > If the same cannot be done for other platforms then the solution would be= to > somehow simplify the difficulty/nuisance of building Emacs on those platf= orms. > > But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building be an excuse f= or > releasing the product before it is fully baked. I don't mind building my emacs. It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distributions. To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing it more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't even consider building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 16:31:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhpTT-0002rx-Lf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:31:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56527) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpTR-0002rq-Pe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:31:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpTQ-000827-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:31:17 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:33064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpTO-00081j-Io; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:31:15 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32673832iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:31:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mAD2pYdlISC12cH5h3F+jCUrF2Y6Hlw1yWSp1qTe4Hc=; b=qH+fyLFj8EuFCBUQUf4GD/cfhzJ31UffKLti4cQeUPMwsWX/lf1QBglpyZuyUr+gfL EjuyVsQoHWqy6YvW9plLDSmD9gpHnnUeqRZCUzFsGI9u2jNhC1m8kjTqyl0ieubsnMRz zNM7JLw/0R/JvxOuGcDvxzEL32HOSbHpIou28= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.168.3 with SMTP id zs3mr58719202igb.29.1325539873896; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:31:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87wr9997bz.fsf@gmx.com> References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87wr9997bz.fsf@gmx.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:31:13 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Eric Schulte Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:31:18 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Eric Schulte wrote: >>> I would have less of a need to build emacs manually if >>> there were more release and therefore standard emacs >>> Linux distros was more up to date. >> >> The problem you raise here is apparently one of the difficulty/nuisance = of >> building Emacs. =A0It is not about how often to publish releases. >> >> Publishing non-release MS Windows binaries periodically has been _very_ = helpful >> (thank you again to those who have created and posted the builds). =A0At= least on >> that platform, that is a solution to the problem you raise. >> > > It seems that the fix here is not to change the Emacs development and > release process, but rather to encourage package maintainers to provide > packages tracking the Emacs trunk. =A0The debian emacs-snapshot package > described as "The GNU Emacs editor (development snapshot)" returns the > following which is certainly many months (maybe years?) out of date. > > $ emacs --version > GNU Emacs 23.2.1 This is one of the things which I always hoped Gentoo, Exherbo or rPath would solve. Of those Gentoo and Exherbo seem to be the most likely solution. Fedora stable is a good way to get current software while not having to rely on Debian sid. Debian has the advantage of doko releasing gcc-snapshot regularly as a nice way to check for future warnings in unreleased gcc versions. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 16:36:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhpYD-0003uh-SQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:36:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56989) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpYC-0003sh-67 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:36:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpYA-0000D9-QJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:36:12 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:36157) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhpYA-0000D1-Lx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 16:36:10 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32679539iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rejioDwbqBTR9pyCwho0V6uWAtrQA4GQyEnmZgcItkE=; b=jRVkLotzv/xG+DBd3q63+tSaxJEnKoQXAbbRTZB6W1QEJjAsda22yPPqcEBs4r2QH2 pLeALii5mGQAL8bdER8Qp9QMlMK+6GfvRKv9yX4OwQfqtbfGoTgFNRGLZaR6ZlPIHPQ4 2Sm7+E1BSVM8G9dlfsXOyJYl+tJf/rfpnhBMU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr58827396igc.29.1325540169854; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:36:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:36:13 -0000 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM, chad wrote: > As far as I can tell, the primary motivator for more frequent releases > of emacs itself is `so emacs doesn't drift so far from its sub-parts', li= ke > as Gnus, Org, CEDET, CC-mode (in the past), etc. =A0This is a laudable > goal, but emacs doesn't seem to currently have the developer cycles > necessary to handle this - releases are frequently held up by documentati= on > changes and reviews even now, with the infrequent releases we have. > > Hopefully, the included package system can cover this gap, once it's full= y spread > through the userbase; users will be able to easily opt-in to newer Gnus r= eleases > (for example) via elpa(s)/packages. =A0If we get this working reliably, w= e could even > remove some packages from the emacs core, in favor of more frequent > package-based releases. =A0While this model might have once seemed burden= some > to users, several years of such systems (for example, in web browser exte= nsion > updates) will have already trained them to deal with such things before e= macs > starts doing something similar. > > That's my hope, anyway. I fully support removing non-essential modes from emacs, now that packaging is supported officially in a consistent way. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 17:14:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhq9Y-0003BW-NR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:14:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37121) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhq9W-0003BL-1d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:14:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhq9V-0006cw-1K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:14:46 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:29459) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhq9T-0006cc-3Z; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:14:43 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q02MEe16030994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:14:41 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q02MEdZq020576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Jan 2012 22:14:40 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q02MEdUE015160; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 16:14:39 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.57.64) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:14:38 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Carsten Mattner'" References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: Periodical releases Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:14:26 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczJlLs067nc0o1GRuqvwcUEhzsv+QAAORtQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F022C51.0076,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:14:47 -0000 > > But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building > > be an excuse for releasing the product before it is fully baked. > > I don't mind building my emacs. Great. But you did cite "less of a need to build emacs manually" as an argument why releases should be more frequent. > It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distributions. Why? What's the nuisance? Anyway, you build Emacs yourself from trunk as often as you like, and you don't mind doing so. Where's the beef? > To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing it > more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't even consider > building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk. Bon sang mais c'est bien sur! Ye olde cathedrale vs bazaar song... There are already plenty of pre-release bugs reported, needing to be fixed. Maybe when they are fixed you can argue that Emacs should be released to get more testers. For now, there seem to be enough people using pre-release builds that give rise to bug reports. More input is always welcome of course, but Emacs users are not _only_ testers and fixers. FWIW, where I work the default, prebuilt Emacs for developers on GNU/Linux is Emacs 21.3.1! And my impression is that few of them bother to build a more recent version. They are seemingly not clamouring for a new version, especially since there are already 6 (!) releases available more recent than the one they use. (Some of them still use XEmacs, and apparently happily so.) It's sometimes good to step back a bit and imagine that not all, or even most, Emacs users are involved in, or even interested in, Emacs development. Ponder... Hard to fathom, I know. Many, probably most, users use Emacs the way I use my car: just to get around and do the things I need to do. I don't work on the engine; I don't want to understand the electrical system; and I upgrade only when the old horse just can't make it around the block anymore even with a little coaxing. Now I'm sure carmakers do not consider me their prime marketing target, and I'm perhaps not a typical car owner. But they really do need to sell new cars, to stay in business. They need new models each year - periodic releases. We're not selling cars, and we're not even in business. We're not in a race or a competition for market share. We cannot go out of business. We improve Emacs only because we want it to be better or we enjoy improving it or both - intrinsic reward. And there's no hurry in that. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 17:27:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhqLv-0004vj-Le for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLr-0004vY-2C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLp-00089T-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:31 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:51190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqLn-00089H-NY; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:27:27 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so32742229iac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=3VZywRT6TWvJfiQkPn5+YIIIokFKJGfULF8tiBd4LFw=; b=c8/5yIrh+kY/BdwKtRaPWoqd5LUAG5OYux2x+zNMhERpDmNGkoWVBChsQOsP9DMRhH KxOBvunOV+iZfNF1bi+l/uR2AchbortsKyLStKRMQrcyI8/vmoEUZ7fVkzLVrsTAtzPI GPuRMMnLYElzma9VyrJwFbyhTEbaXEFNqpBNA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr52831524icw.36.1325543246809; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 23:27:26 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Drew Adams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:27:33 -0000 --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, January 2, 2012, Drew Adams wrote: >> > But in no case should that difficulty/nuisance of building >> > be an excuse for releasing the product before it is fully baked. >> >> I don't mind building my emacs. > > Great. But you did cite "less of a need to build emacs manually" as an argument > why releases should be more frequent. So that distros don't carry ancient emacs versions. >> It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distributions. > > Why? What's the nuisance? Anyway, you build Emacs yourself from trunk as often > as you like, and you don't mind doing so. Where's the beef? I'd like to use the packaged emacs if it wasn't too old (for me). >> To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing it >> more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't even consider >> building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk. > > Bon sang mais c'est bien sur! Ye olde cathedrale vs bazaar song... > > There are already plenty of pre-release bugs reported, needing to be fixed. > Maybe when they are fixed you can argue that Emacs should be released to get > more testers. For now, there seem to be enough people using pre-release builds > that give rise to bug reports. More input is always welcome of course, but > Emacs users are not _only_ testers and fixers. Not much to argue here. > FWIW, where I work the default, prebuilt Emacs for developers on GNU/Linux is > Emacs 21.3.1! And my impression is that few of them bother to build a more > recent version. They are seemingly not clamouring for a new version, especially > since there are already 6 (!) releases available more recent than the one they > use. (Some of them still use XEmacs, and apparently happily so.) > > It's sometimes good to step back a bit and imagine that not all, or even most, > Emacs users are involved in, or even interested in, Emacs development. > Ponder... Hard to fathom, I know. > > Many, probably most, users use Emacs the way I use my car: just to get around > and do the things I need to do. I don't work on the engine; I don't want to > understand the electrical system; and I upgrade only when the old horse just > can't make it around the block anymore even with a little coaxing. > > Now I'm sure carmakers do not consider me their prime marketing target, and I'm > perhaps not a typical car owner. But they really do need to sell new cars, to > stay in business. They need new models each year - periodic releases. > > We're not selling cars, and we're not even in business. We're not in a race or > a competition for market share. We cannot go out of business. We improve Emacs > only because we want it to be better or we enjoy improving it or both - > intrinsic reward. And there's no hurry in that. If we sold cars, looks would b more important than function. It's good this ain't a car. --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, January 2, 2012, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> > But in no ca= se should that difficulty/nuisance of building
>> > be an excus= e for releasing the product before it is fully baked.
>>
>> I don't mind building my emacs.
>
> Gr= eat. =A0But you did cite "less of a need to build emacs manually"= as an argument
> why releases should be more frequent.

So tha= t distros don't carry ancient emacs versions.

>> It's a nuisance to have years old Emacs version in distrib= utions.
>
> Why? =A0What's the nuisance? =A0Anyway, you bui= ld Emacs yourself from trunk as often
> as you like, and you don'= t mind doing so. =A0Where's the beef?

I'd like to use the packaged emacs if it wasn't too old (for me= ).

>> To get a less buggy Emacs a better approach is releasing= it
>> more often so that there are more testers who wouldn't = even consider
>> building manually or install a prebuilt snapshot from trunk.
&g= t;
> Bon sang mais c'est bien sur! =A0Ye olde cathedrale vs bazaa= r song...
>
> There are already plenty of pre-release bugs repo= rted, needing to be fixed.
> Maybe when they are fixed you can argue that Emacs should be released = to get
> more testers. =A0For now, there seem to be enough people usi= ng pre-release builds
> that give rise to bug reports. =A0More input = is always welcome of course, but
> Emacs users are not _only_ testers and fixers.

Not much to argu= e here.

> FWIW, where I work the default, prebuilt Emacs for deve= lopers on GNU/Linux is
> Emacs 21.3.1! =A0And my impression is that f= ew of them bother to build a more
> recent version. =A0They are seemingly not clamouring for a new version= , especially
> since there are already 6 (!) releases available more = recent than the one they
> use. =A0(Some of them still use XEmacs, an= d apparently happily so.)
>
> It's sometimes good to step back a bit and imagine that no= t all, or even most,
> Emacs users are involved in, or even intereste= d in, Emacs development.
> Ponder... =A0Hard to fathom, I know.
>
> Many, probably most, users use Emacs the way I use my car: jus= t to get around
> and do the things I need to do. =A0I don't work= on the engine; I don't want to
> understand the electrical syste= m; and I upgrade only when the old horse just
> can't make it around the block anymore even with a little coaxing.=
>
> Now I'm sure carmakers do not consider me their prime = marketing target, and I'm
> perhaps not a typical car owner. =A0B= ut they really do need to sell new cars, to
> stay in business. =A0They need new models each year - periodic release= s.
>
> We're not selling cars, and we're not even in bu= siness. =A0We're not in a race or
> a competition for market shar= e. =A0We cannot go out of business. =A0We improve Emacs
> only because we want it to be better or we enjoy improving it or both = -
> intrinsic reward. =A0And there's no hurry in that.

If = we sold cars, looks would b more important than function. It's good thi= s ain't a car. --90e6ba6e872e5c497804b59316c8-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 17:35:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhqTq-00068A-JG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52392) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqTm-000684-L6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqTl-0000s6-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:42 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqTk-0000rv-OZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:41 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhqTj-0005HD-Io for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:35:39 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:35:39 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:35:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 75 Message-ID: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:x+4bHRIxgOpRdiQWvZBeLopTxG0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:35:43 -0000 On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:39:12 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:16:34 -0500 >> >> In any case, it's better to have the *ability* to issue updates than >> not to. In that context, it seems more sensible to package GnuTLS >> support as an ELPA package so it can be upgraded without upgrading >> Emacs as a whole. EZ> It makes sense, but how is ELPA easier than any other download EZ> address? All that's needed is to download a single zip archive and EZ> unzip it. Why does it matter if it comes from ELPA or from EZ> elsewhere? ELPA updates can be done entirely from within Emacs. Downloading and unzipping a file is a nuisance. Imagine if you asked GNU/Linux users to do the same. "But they have package managers..." Exactly! And so does Emacs, now that package.el is here! So let's use packages for non-trivial work. >> So perhaps we just need a versioned "gnutls-w32" ELPA package to >> DTRT. W32 users can choose to install it or it can be installed by >> default, whichever we or the distribution decides. EZ> The alternatives are: EZ> . have GnuTLS as part of the binary zip EZ> . have GnuTLS as a separate zip alongside the binary zip (we do this EZ> for libxpm) EZ> . have GnuTLS available for download from some other address I think the right solution is to ask the user "you don't have the GnuTLS package for W32, do you want to get it?" and then do it through ELPA, when they try to use HTTPS for instance. The same, actually, should be done with libxpm and any other add-on DLLs. So this work could become much more useful than just for GnuTLS. Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be automated? On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:31:24 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/2 Ted Zlatanov : >> I stated I would do that monitoring. In any case, it's better to have >> the *ability* to issue updates than not to. JB> We already have the ability to issue updates, because any update is JB> just getting the info to the user (whether they download a binary JB> tarball from us or somewhere else, the only real trouble is getting JB> the user to know that there's a security issue to be fixed in the JB> first place). In that regard, announcing a new release or announcing JB> that the user should upgrade their GnuTLS binary is largely JB> irrelevant. ELPA, however, can show the user all the packages that need to be updated in one place, so they don't have to check for GnuTLS updates on W32 specifically. It should be set up to check on startup, IMHO. That's a win (heh heh) for everyone, and fits with what users expect nowadays, compared with other extensible software like Firefox and Chrome. JB> But anyway, the issue is not just monitoring. Someone has to build JB> updated binary GnuTLS packages for Windows. That Eli just did it does JB> not mean we can burden him with the task forever. We can automate that. Eli and Nicos have done the hard part, I think. Ditto for an ELPA package, if we can do it once it can be automated. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 17:52:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhqjl-00036v-3k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41990) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhqji-00036p-83 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhqjh-0003FU-4B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:10 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhqjh-0003FQ-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:09 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhqjc-0004DI-CY; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:52:04 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Carsten Mattner In-reply-to: (message from Carsten Mattner on Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0100) Subject: Re: gnutls for lose32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0154F1.6000002@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, eliz@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, nmav@gnutls.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 22:52:11 -0000 Is the intent to hide or deny the existence of Windows? Our policy is not to use "win" as a reference to "windows". Once you learn to write "w32" or "Windows32" or "Windows API", it takes no extra effort. So please do it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 02 19:48:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhsYT-0008VW-AW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:48:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33301) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhsYQ-0008VQ-NE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:48:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhsYP-0007ws-Jy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:48:38 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50892) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhsYP-0007wm-Bv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:48:37 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RhsYO-0002Cn-7r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:36 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:36 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:36 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:20 +0100 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:I2s2wme61e2ZCU2cXQtp0oujCWM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 00:48:39 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: [snip] > Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL > from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a > restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be > automated? The relevant MS Windows API function (LoadLibrary) accepts a full pathname, so no need for restarts nor changing PATH. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 01:37:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhxzy-0001DI-0t for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42389) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhxzu-00019Z-I7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhxzt-0003xX-HV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46222) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhxzt-0003xT-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:21 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhxzr-0000ZK-S6; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:37:19 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:20 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 06:37:23 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:48:20 +0100 > > > Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL > > from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a > > restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be > > automated? > > The relevant MS Windows API function (LoadLibrary) accepts a full > pathname That's a factual truth, but it would be a grave mistake on our part to use absolute file names for loading dynamic libraries, because it will mean a major inconvenience to users. It is hard on Windows to pick up a fixed directory where every user could easily put the library: the only directories that are guaranteed to exist on every Windows system are frequently locked up by security policies, the only disk drive guaranteed to exist can be a remote drive or even a read-only drive, etc. It would be a step in the wrong direction. Besides, even if we did follow this path, it wouldn't solve the problem, because: > so no need for restarts nor changing PATH. There's much more to loading a new DLL in the middle of a session than just the location of the new DLL. I will address that in a separate message. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 02:14:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RhyZl-0006Tg-G4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40239) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhyZh-0006Pn-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhyZg-0008Kz-2f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46611) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhyZg-0008Kv-1B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:20 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RhyZf-0007ZS-UL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:19 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:14:23 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500 > > EZ> It makes sense, but how is ELPA easier than any other download > EZ> address? All that's needed is to download a single zip archive and > EZ> unzip it. Why does it matter if it comes from ELPA or from > EZ> elsewhere? > > ELPA updates can be done entirely from within Emacs. See below: currently, using this for anything not Lisp-based, like installing a new dynamic library, is a pipe dream. (Actually, even downloading a new version of a Lisp library into a running session has its problems, as discussed here recently; but I digress.) > Downloading and unzipping a file is a nuisance. Imagine if you > asked GNU/Linux users to do the same. "But they have package > managers..." Exactly! And so does Emacs, now that package.el is > here! And I thought only Windows users were spoiled enough to demand one-click installations. "Downloading and unzipping is a nuisance"... sheesh. > Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL > from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a > restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be > automated? We currently lack infrastructure to replace a DLL that is already used by a running Emacs process. The code that loads a DLL and initializes the function pointers used to access its APIs assumes this will be done only once in a given session, so currently we do need a restart. To be able to replace a DLL without restarting Emacs, we would need to add code to free and unload a used DLL from the Emacs process, and then load the new one. This might be complicate if there are data structures lying around that use the DLL facilities, like an existing connection using GnuTLS or an image displayed using an image DLL. We will need to shut down the relevant Emacs features before replacing the DLL. There will also be complications with this if another Emacs process runs the same binary and uses the same DLL, because I don't think you can overwrite the DLL from under the feet of that other process. If you are thinking about a limited goal of installing for the first time a DLL that does not yet exist and is not loaded into Emacs, then it can be done, although some code will need to be written for that as well, and I'm not sure package.el is designed to handle such "packages". Moreover, I'm not sure such a limited goal would be in the spirit of package managing, since upgrading an installed package is an important part of that, perhaps more important than the initial installation. > JB> But anyway, the issue is not just monitoring. Someone has to build > JB> updated binary GnuTLS packages for Windows. That Eli just did it does > JB> not mean we can burden him with the task forever. > > We can automate that. Who exactly are "we" in this sentence? > Eli and Nicos have done the hard part, I think. I did nothing of the kind. I just configured and built the stock distribution, and fought whatever problems I found that prevented the build and the test suite to run to completion. The record of that fight includes 18 "issues" which I will be reporting to GnuTLS developers soon; until those are resolved, the build I did is anything but an automatic thing. And I don't see how anyone else's build can be fully automated, unless the "issues" I bumped into are due to my own misunderstandings. In any case, my experience indicates that having a steady feed of regular updates of Windows builds of any non-trivial package can never be based on a single individual, no matter if his/her name is Eli, Nicos, or something else. People invest in this some time for as long as they have it or are interested, and then go away to pursue other interests or go on with their lives. You cannot build a reliable infrastructure on something that is not part of your project. Bottom line, I feel that letting users download and unzip DLLs is by far more practical for this purpose than what you suggest. It also has the advantage of already working. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 02:48:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rhz6d-0002YK-Uk for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48392) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhz6a-0002Xi-VH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhz6Z-0003sD-Qf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:20 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46980) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhz6Z-0003s9-PH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:19 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rhz6Z-0003XZ-NM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:19 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:48:22 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500 > > We can automate that. Eli and Nicos have done the hard part, I think. Btw, for some reason Nicos disables creation of gnutls-openssl library, and I don't understand why. Doesn't Emacs need it? (My primary motivation for building GnuTLS was to compile the latest wget, btw.) From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 08:07:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri45G-0000Kr-0N for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri45C-0000I9-OQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri45B-0008Eu-2h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47574) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri45A-0008Eo-Hr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:13 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri457-00012V-5g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:07:09 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:07:09 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:07:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:06:51 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 122 Message-ID: <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y39y+W87u9nyuX/9T+93/SUx9kg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:07:16 -0000 On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:19 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500 >> EZ> It makes sense, but how is ELPA easier than any other download EZ> address? All that's needed is to download a single zip archive and EZ> unzip it. Why does it matter if it comes from ELPA or from EZ> elsewhere? >> >> ELPA updates can be done entirely from within Emacs. EZ> See below: currently, using this for anything not Lisp-based, like EZ> installing a new dynamic library, is a pipe dream. (Actually, even EZ> downloading a new version of a Lisp library into a running session has EZ> its problems, as discussed here recently; but I digress.) You're taking current technical limitations and applying them to a UI comparison. The package.el UI is far superior to a download+unzip process, especially if that process needs to happen more than once and for more than one package. >> Downloading and unzipping a file is a nuisance. Imagine if you >> asked GNU/Linux users to do the same. "But they have package >> managers..." Exactly! And so does Emacs, now that package.el is >> here! EZ> And I thought only Windows users were spoiled enough to demand EZ> one-click installations. "Downloading and unzipping is a EZ> nuisance"... sheesh. It's 2012. Emacs must be compared with Firefox and Chrome, not with vi/vim. If you don't see how passing the download+unzip burden to the user is a nuisance to them and consider it "spoiling," I think that's unfortunate. >> Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL >> from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a >> restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be >> automated? EZ> We currently lack infrastructure to replace a DLL that is already used EZ> by a running Emacs process. The code that loads a DLL and initializes EZ> the function pointers used to access its APIs assumes this will be EZ> done only once in a given session, so currently we do need a restart. EZ> To be able to replace a DLL without restarting Emacs, we would need to EZ> add code to free and unload a used DLL from the Emacs process, and EZ> then load the new one. This might be complicate if there are data EZ> structures lying around that use the DLL facilities, like an existing EZ> connection using GnuTLS or an image displayed using an image DLL. We EZ> will need to shut down the relevant Emacs features before replacing EZ> the DLL. EZ> There will also be complications with this if another Emacs process EZ> runs the same binary and uses the same DLL, because I don't think you EZ> can overwrite the DLL from under the feet of that other process. EZ> If you are thinking about a limited goal of installing for the first EZ> time a DLL that does not yet exist and is not loaded into Emacs, then EZ> it can be done, although some code will need to be written for that as EZ> well, and I'm not sure package.el is designed to handle such EZ> "packages". Moreover, I'm not sure such a limited goal would be in EZ> the spirit of package managing, since upgrading an installed package EZ> is an important part of that, perhaps more important than the initial EZ> installation. OK, so let's do a restart after a DLL package install or upgrade. It's better than nothing. Can this process be reused for other DLLs like the libxpm DLL? Can we activate the new DLL after Emacs restarts, so the old one will remain active as long as Emacs is using it and the user is not forced to restart immediately? I'm not sure if multiple Emacs processes are an important use case. I would guess it's an edge case on W32 and can probably be handled by scanning the process table and insisting that all Emacs instances be shut down. JB> But anyway, the issue is not just monitoring. Someone has to build JB> updated binary GnuTLS packages for Windows. That Eli just did it does JB> not mean we can burden him with the task forever. >> >> We can automate that. EZ> Who exactly are "we" in this sentence? emacs-devel; at least me specifically. >> Eli and Nicos have done the hard part, I think. EZ> I did nothing of the kind. I just configured and built the stock EZ> distribution, and fought whatever problems I found that prevented the EZ> build and the test suite to run to completion. The record of that EZ> fight includes 18 "issues" which I will be reporting to GnuTLS EZ> developers soon; until those are resolved, the build I did is anything EZ> but an automatic thing. And I don't see how anyone else's build can EZ> be fully automated, unless the "issues" I bumped into are due to my EZ> own misunderstandings. EZ> In any case, my experience indicates that having a steady feed of EZ> regular updates of Windows builds of any non-trivial package can never EZ> be based on a single individual, no matter if his/her name is Eli, EZ> Nicos, or something else. People invest in this some time for as long EZ> as they have it or are interested, and then go away to pursue other EZ> interests or go on with their lives. You cannot build a reliable EZ> infrastructure on something that is not part of your project. I'm not sure what you and Juanma want to say. That because we don't have salaried positions for tracking GnuTLS updates to Emacs, it's a burden? Or that we shouldn't even do it? Or that we need more people to run the Emacs infrastructure? What's the problem and how can we solve it? EZ> Bottom line, I feel that letting users download and unzip DLLs is by EZ> far more practical for this purpose than what you suggest. It also EZ> has the advantage of already working. It certainly is easier for us, the developers. But I think it's not the best solution we can offer to the users. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 08:10:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri484-0000x2-P9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:10:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53937) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri47z-0000uc-BJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:10:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri47x-0000KD-P7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:10:07 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48304) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri47x-0000J8-Jf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:10:05 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri47w-0002Ns-Go for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:10:04 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:10:04 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:10:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:09:25 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:uPFyTVOuptcvUyn0UFvtvYTpK+k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:10:11 -0000 On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:48:19 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:35:21 -0500 >> >> We can automate that. Eli and Nicos have done the hard part, I think. EZ> Btw, for some reason Nicos disables creation of gnutls-openssl EZ> library, and I don't understand why. Doesn't Emacs need it? That's just the OpenSSL compatibility layer and Emacs doesn't currently use it AFAIK. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 08:37:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri4Yn-0005Tu-RP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:37:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44041) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4Ym-0005To-Fr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:37:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4Yh-0004p7-Qj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:37:48 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:45917) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4Yh-0004on-Jo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:37:43 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so11358090pbd.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 05:37:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z7Cvd10CpdadaqQjNphpKuQuQjW5g3+tsfS1wCYR5aQ=; b=FMcVp3M1XxdMGlHwbJ3dYaOtpIDsK8yT97cUJIafDq8ARSu+GXSSGY7j6dQnEshG/h E3blf4o3d1WxnSo3ymj9cER4JckUARiOWDRNgl/wf4Bn1vGjScb9azk8KVDo6ZCB5ir3 +jgwvc4nNQzSIAwPGar33NfDE0tEw0OXRoj9g= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr107977264pbw.23.1325597862601; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 05:37:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 05:37:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:37:00 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:37:49 -0000 2012/1/3 Ted Zlatanov : > I'm not sure what you and Juanma want to say. =C2=A0That because we don't > have salaried positions for tracking GnuTLS updates to Emacs, it's a > burden? =C2=A0Or that we shouldn't even do it? =C2=A0Or that we need more= people > to run the Emacs infrastructure? =C2=A0What's the problem and how can we > solve it? What I want to say is that is a problem already fixed elsewhere, and I see no point in diverting resources to fix it again poorly. > It certainly is easier for us, the developers. =C2=A0But I think it's not= the > best solution we can offer to the users. The best thing we can offer to the users is invest our resources in developing Emacs, not packaging what does not really need to be packaged. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 09:02:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri4wf-0006JX-5t for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47980) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4wY-0006Gz-Au for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4wT-00007I-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:52049) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4wT-000074-7a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:17 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri4wT-0003Ev-1y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:17 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:06:51 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:02:27 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:06:51 -0500 > > On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:19 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > OK, so let's do a restart after a DLL package install or upgrade. It's > better than nothing. Can this process be reused for other DLLs like the > libxpm DLL? Can we activate the new DLL after Emacs restarts, so the > old one will remain active as long as Emacs is using it and the user is > not forced to restart immediately? We can, although it'd probably still need some code changes. E.g., displaying the splash image at startup will automatically load an image library, and we will have to defer that until after the DLL is replaced. (Assuming I understand you correctly that you propose to run package.el in the new, restarted instance of Emacs and replace the DLL before it is first used.) > I'm not sure if multiple Emacs processes are an important use case. I > would guess it's an edge case on W32 Happens to me all the time when I'm working on some bug and have the "regular" Emacs running alongside. Also, I understand that some people who use Gnus have it run in a separate session. > I'm not sure what you and Juanma want to say. That because we don't > have salaried positions for tracking GnuTLS updates to Emacs, it's a > burden? Or that we shouldn't even do it? Or that we need more people > to run the Emacs infrastructure? What's the problem and how can we > solve it? What I want to say is this: > EZ> Bottom line, I feel that letting users download and unzip DLLs is by > EZ> far more practical for this purpose than what you suggest. It also > EZ> has the advantage of already working. What you propose is a laudable goal, but I think it has practical complications that make its gain not worth the effort. Please keep in mind that Windows users of Emacs already know how to download and unzip a distribution, because that's how they install Emacs in the first place. That said, if someone is motivated enough to invest the effort, I'll applaud them. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 09:07:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri51W-0007ta-Hs for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:07:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37625) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri51R-0007tT-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:07:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri51N-00019S-HN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:07:25 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53764) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri51N-00019G-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:07:21 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri51J-0001Y4-N5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:07:17 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:07:17 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:07:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:07:02 +0100 Lines: 43 Message-ID: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:QY1dy72uVt7CgVX+BShY6QPWE00= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:07:29 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > Can Emacs modify the DLL search path on W32 so it can install some DLL >> > from ELPA and then activate it dynamically? Or does it require a >> > restart and modifying the global PATH? Either way, can the process be >> > automated? >> >> The relevant MS Windows API function (LoadLibrary) accepts a full >> pathname > > That's a factual truth, but it would be a grave mistake on our part to > use absolute file names for loading dynamic libraries, because it will > mean a major inconvenience to users. It is hard on Windows to pick up > a fixed directory where every user could easily put the library: the > only directories that are guaranteed to exist on every Windows system > are frequently locked up by security policies, the only disk drive > guaranteed to exist can be a remote drive or even a read-only drive, > etc. It would be a step in the wrong direction. You are providing reasons for the package approach: if it is hard for the user to put the dll in the correct directory, let Emacs do it. > Besides, even if we did follow this path, it wouldn't solve the > problem, because: > >> so no need for restarts nor changing PATH. > > There's much more to loading a new DLL in the middle of a session than > just the location of the new DLL. I will address that in a separate > message. I was not proposing to unload the old dll and load the new one on the fly (BTW, I was not prososing anything at all, just providing technical info). I know very well that that is unfeasible in general. What is possible: if GnuTLS is absent and the user wants it, download the dll and start using it right away. If GnuTLS needs to be upgraded, advertise the fact to the user, ask for his permission, and proceed to download(*), with an Emacs restart at the end (or some variation of this sequence of actions). * DLLs which are in use are not file-writable. Either the dll must be unloaded first (which may be unfeasible) or the new version must be downloaded to a temporary location and moved to the final place later. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 09:14:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri58E-0001oG-Dd for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:14:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri589-0001lv-56 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:14:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri585-0002QH-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:14:21 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:59391) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri580-0002PT-Ij; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:14:12 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so34024603iac.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=dutBihb33CMlnq/2EB0GJ4JyEzekCy2n7aQvni8CneM=; b=j0MDjODJiAMco7x9aBnbCBcdWNvFdqjUbJDMLO3iX7PU0q3sEyx2own+OXBBTnPgfm AowwpXyCY32UfK2HlfsPP5tjTwOL0sl+HkeZXFX6pPYS1vSwH221TBIdCD7o8FqD0Z13 FHafTycMTyzMwQ4UxEEdBuOXO/R2KWDskMmqc= Received: by 10.43.131.196 with SMTP id hr4mr53649876icc.55.1325600051574; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.216.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z22sm177522540ibg.5.2012.01.03.06.14.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 Jan 2012 06:14:09 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 24FFB1D73; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:14:01 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:14:00 +0800 In-Reply-To: <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:39:12 +0200") Message-ID: <87sjjwg9g7.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:14:25 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > The w32 "distribution" is just a single zip file which you unzip > wherever you want it, and add the bin subdirectory to PATH. A zip > file cannot "decide" anything. > > The alternatives are: > > . have GnuTLS as part of the binary zip > > . have GnuTLS as a separate zip alongside the binary zip (we do this > for libxpm) Not quite true. libxpm.dll is included in the binary zip for emacs. The separate zip for libxpm is the sources, since we need to distribute the sources for libraries we distribute according to the GPL (libxpm is under a more permissive license I think, but since we distribute it as part of Emacs, we have an obligation to follow GPL as well). > . have GnuTLS available for download from some other address From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 10:01:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri5rP-0005Kk-R0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:01:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34378) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5rI-0005IG-GE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:01:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5rA-0001jk-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:01:00 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47692) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5rA-0001jU-8g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:00:52 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5r8-0004Y6-8s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:00:50 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:00:50 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:00:50 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:00:15 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 76 Message-ID: <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:/HtckVklXCGGxZrZZ1UttgKOVOU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:01:05 -0000 On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 09:02:17 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:06:51 -0500 >> >> On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 02:14:19 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> OK, so let's do a restart after a DLL package install or upgrade. It's >> better than nothing. Can this process be reused for other DLLs like the >> libxpm DLL? Can we activate the new DLL after Emacs restarts, so the >> old one will remain active as long as Emacs is using it and the user is >> not forced to restart immediately? EZ> We can, although it'd probably still need some code changes. E.g., EZ> displaying the splash image at startup will automatically load an EZ> image library, and we will have to defer that until after the DLL is EZ> replaced. (Assuming I understand you correctly that you propose to EZ> run package.el in the new, restarted instance of Emacs and replace the EZ> DLL before it is first used.) The mechanism is not too important from a UI perspective, as long as it DTRT, and I don't know the W32 platform well enough to specify how it should operate. If you think replacing the DLL is possible entirely from within Emacs, I'm OK with that. As a first cut, could we have a gnutls-w32 package, version 3.09 currently, which when activated will download and install the 3.09 GnuTLS DLL if it's missing? Where should this DLL be written? Does W32 have APIs or mechanisms to update DLLs safely? As an alternate solution, could GnuTLS itself have an installer and an updater? >> I'm not sure if multiple Emacs processes are an important use case. I >> would guess it's an edge case on W32 EZ> Happens to me all the time when I'm working on some bug and have the EZ> "regular" Emacs running alongside. Also, I understand that some EZ> people who use Gnus have it run in a separate session. Emacs developers are always an edge case :) >> I'm not sure what you and Juanma want to say. That because we don't >> have salaried positions for tracking GnuTLS updates to Emacs, it's a >> burden? Or that we shouldn't even do it? Or that we need more people >> to run the Emacs infrastructure? What's the problem and how can we >> solve it? EZ> What I want to say is this: EZ> Bottom line, I feel that letting users download and unzip DLLs is by EZ> far more practical for this purpose than what you suggest. It also EZ> has the advantage of already working. Unlike other libraries we support with Emacs, we have a responsibility to the user to keep GnuTLS updated. The worst case is that their security is compromised, not that Emacs won't run. On W32 this is a worse problem than anywhere else IIUC (Mac OS X has MacPorts and GNU/Linux has a billion package managers). So, we either tell the user to download and unzip the GnuTLS DLLs every time there's a critical fix, or we do it automatically for them from the package.el UI, or we pass the responsibility to the GnuTLS developers to write an updater. I don't think we have the option, as responsible developers, of just ignoring that responsibility. On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:37:00 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> What I want to say is that is a problem already fixed elsewhere, and I JB> see no point in diverting resources to fix it again poorly. The problem of pushing out a critical GnuTLS fix to Emacs users on W32 is not fixed AFAIK. We just have a DLL in a zip file. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 10:06:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri5w9-000610-6J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:06:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39692) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5w3-000609-KS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:05:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5vz-0002Yw-Il for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:05:55 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:55796) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri5vz-0002Yo-DF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:05:51 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so13502062dak.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=o+EeBZ/Xv0KELhq4xKG0GdxHKaJSAK0t02UxISQwjCY=; b=FAugJCfZJCJ6HLvfhlHyqrDyGSwJChP+Ggfhy3Ft9sX5/PCCZYC7PBUe5+TU+qsycQ esYjEbyQmoHe49LAfch8VKaVbqX9gOSiTogiLyJmUF2o12PF0/O9lmyRSVPya7YpxTwH EC6AO8wD0zmMKQBIm6M5+X/m3xnWVIh4rCpMM= Received: by 10.68.74.233 with SMTP id x9mr104117882pbv.74.1325603150269; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 07:05:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:05:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:05:59 -0000 2012/1/3 Ted Zlatanov : > The problem of pushing out a critical GnuTLS fix to Emacs users on W32 > is not fixed AFAIK. =C2=A0We just have a DLL in a zip file. Again: the problem is letting them now that something needs to be fixed. Downloading a zip is not the hard part. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 12:06:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri7oa-0001sN-1f for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:06:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri7oU-0001nj-6K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:06:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri7oN-0006MA-Mz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:06:14 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:47462) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri7oN-0006Ly-DO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:06:07 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800000FCRZQ00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:06:05 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX8000YWFI4Y420@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:06:05 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:06:10 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83fwfwra0t.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:06:18 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:09:25 -0500 > > EZ> Btw, for some reason Nicos disables creation of gnutls-openssl > EZ> library, and I don't understand why. Doesn't Emacs need it? > > That's just the OpenSSL compatibility layer and Emacs doesn't currently > use it AFAIK. OK, so Emacs will be happy, but some other program that does need OpenSSL might not be. IOW, that w32 build could be incomplete. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 12:21:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri83C-0000ck-M6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:21:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34500) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri835-0000W2-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:21:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri833-0000Nh-EY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:21:19 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:35758) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri833-0000Nd-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:21:17 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800300G4EFA00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:10 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX800HLZG78QEA2@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:10 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:14 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:21:25 -0000 > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:07:02 +0100 >=20 > >> The relevant MS Windows API function (LoadLibrary) accepts a ful= l > >> pathname > > > > That's a factual truth, but it would be a grave mistake on our pa= rt to > > use absolute file names for loading dynamic libraries, because it= will > > mean a major inconvenience to users. It is hard on Windows to pi= ck up > > a fixed directory where every user could easily put the library: = the > > only directories that are guaranteed to exist on every Windows sy= stem > > are frequently locked up by security policies, the only disk driv= e > > guaranteed to exist can be a remote drive or even a read-only dri= ve, > > etc. It would be a step in the wrong direction. >=20 > You are providing reasons for the package approach: if it is hard f= or > the user to put the dll in the correct directory, let Emacs do it. No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct directory. It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An entirely different issue. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 12:29:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8Ax-0002n0-TW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:29:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56309) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8Au-0002mn-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:29:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8At-0001jm-Jx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:29:24 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:38361) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8At-0001jS-BI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:29:23 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800300GK6H300@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:29:09 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX800LF5GKKBQM1@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:29:08 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:29:14 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83aa64r8yd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:29:26 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:00:15 -0500 > > The mechanism is not too important from a UI perspective, as long as it > DTRT, and I don't know the W32 platform well enough to specify how it > should operate. If you think replacing the DLL is possible entirely > from within Emacs, I'm OK with that. Anything's possible: this is software, after all. It is just that it takes a non-trivial effort. > As a first cut, could we have a gnutls-w32 package, version 3.09 > currently, which when activated will download and install the 3.09 > GnuTLS DLL if it's missing? We can, if someone does the job. > Where should this DLL be written? To the directory where emacs.exe lives. > Does W32 have APIs or mechanisms to update DLLs safely? If it does, I'm not familiar with them (which doesn't mean they don't exist; I don't consider myself an expert on the gazillion APIs scattered across MS-Windows-land). > As an alternate solution, could GnuTLS itself have an installer and an > updater? Alternative for what? for package.el or for replacing a DLL without restarting Emacs? > On W32 this is a worse problem than anywhere else IIUC (Mac OS X has > MacPorts and GNU/Linux has a billion package managers). So, we either > tell the user to download and unzip the GnuTLS DLLs every time there's a > critical fix, or we do it automatically for them from the package.el UI, > or we pass the responsibility to the GnuTLS developers to write an > updater. I don't think we have the option, as responsible developers, > of just ignoring that responsibility. I don't ignore it, I built the W32 DLL in the first place, remember? I just think this puts us 99% of the way to the goal, that's all. But if someone has motivation to go the extra 1%, my hat. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 12:39:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8Ks-000743-4a for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:39:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8Kk-000731-VG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:39:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8Kk-0003J7-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:39:34 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47663) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8Kk-0003Io-0I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:39:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8Kh-0000KQ-Vk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:39:31 +0100 Received: from 184.71.240.90 ([184.71.240.90]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:39:31 +0100 Received: from bsamograd by 184.71.240.90 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:39:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Burton Samograd Subject: Problem with bzr updated sources from today (Jan 3rd, 2012) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:35:32 -0700 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 184.71.240.90 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:PbqNPlxz1IrG7OWmNoQKGVVIPpc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:39:40 -0000 Hello, I just pulled the bzr sources and I'm having a major problem. It seems to be releated to splitting windows and is visible in when using gnus, or just splitting windows in the current frame using the keyboard. I get the message "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds `max-specpdl-size'" at first, and then later "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds `max-lisp-eval-depth'". I have this problem when running with emacs -q as well. Version reports "GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1...". The max-sepcpdl-size message also comes up when I try to auto-complete M-x version from a freshly started emacs -q. -- Burton Samograd From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 12:48:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8TT-00039M-RA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:48:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45110) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8TQ-00038B-HE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:48:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8TP-0004X6-6d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:48:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39292) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8TO-0004Ws-V9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:48:31 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8TN-0004GN-Gi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:29 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:29 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:29 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:17 +0100 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:E7oLqbM5Hi0duLoqNYKrQK0K0G8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:48:34 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> You are providing reasons for the package approach: if it is hard for >> the user to put the dll in the correct directory, let Emacs do it. > > No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct > directory. The user needs to know the correct directory (where "correct" implies "with write access to it and Emacs can find the dll there"). That's anything but trivial even for a computer-savvy user (BTW, since when Emacs changed its policy and is targeted to geeks only again?) > It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to > select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we > could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An > entirely different issue. Elisp packages downloaded by package.el are already saved on a well-known directory where Emacs has write access to. So the problem is solved. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:09:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8nY-00022Z-QK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:09:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40187) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8nW-0001zZ-2c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:09:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8nV-0007wA-77 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:09:18 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:47672) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8nU-0007w6-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:09:17 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 03 Jan 2012 18:09:13 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-30.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.30]) [62.47.50.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp013) with SMTP; 03 Jan 2012 19:09:13 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18e5o1KfAsewu574H8/1UsTk1XmsstCU4DBMnloay XX0AVX38focDv1 Message-ID: <4F034447.4080102@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:09:11 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Burton Samograd Subject: Re: Problem with bzr updated sources from today (Jan 3rd, 2012) References: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> In-Reply-To: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:09:19 -0000 > I get the message "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds `max-specpdl-size'" > at first, and then later "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds > `max-lisp-eval-depth'". Try doing rm lisp/window.elc make martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:10:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8ol-00031J-CO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:10:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37407) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8oi-0002yD-Cx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:10:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8og-0008Ab-Uv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:10:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48791) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8og-0008AU-OS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:10:30 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8of-0005E2-Vj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:29 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:29 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:29 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:14 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <87zke4slmh.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa659bpw.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urgal1c.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83aa64r8yd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VKWwsJhMAwieU4oQ7bs5cTN9Ua4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:10:33 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: [snip] >> Where should this DLL be written? > > To the directory where emacs.exe lives. Keep in mind that such operation may require Admin privileges. Writing under the user's home directory doesn't require elevated privileges. Ted, please see my other response to Eli. Writing on the under the same directory where the Elisp packages retrieved by package.el should no pose problems. >> Does W32 have APIs or mechanisms to update DLLs safely? The standard MS installers have a mechanism for detecting when a dll is in use and, if the result is positive, arrange things for updating it on the next restart or login. A poor's man method for detecting when a dll is in use is just trying to overwrite it (after you know that you have write access to the file). [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:12:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8qZ-0003f3-1Q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:12:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37811) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8qT-0003eE-K0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:12:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8qS-0008O9-Fv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:12:21 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45709) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8qS-0008O4-9U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:12:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8qQ-0005tH-Rj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:12:18 +0100 Received: from 184.71.240.90 ([184.71.240.90]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:12:18 +0100 Received: from bsamograd by 184.71.240.90 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:12:18 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Burton Samograd Subject: Re: Problem with bzr updated sources from today (Jan 3rd, 2012) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:08:22 -0700 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <87hb0cfyll.fsf@interalia.com> References: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> <4F034447.4080102@gmx.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 184.71.240.90 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Fy8fI/FFk1wyHkddo4zPZGBdc3M= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:12:25 -0000 martin rudalics writes: >> I get the message "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds >> max-specpdl-size'" >> at first, and then later "window-total-size: Lisp nesting exceeds >> `max-lisp-eval-depth'". > > Try doing > > rm lisp/window.elc > make Thanks, worked like a charm. Problem with build dependencies? -- Burton Samograd From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:14:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8sl-0004S2-A6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8sg-0004MM-Oh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8sf-0000QX-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:38 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:51502) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8sf-0000QR-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:37 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800300IJSZL00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:14:35 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX800332IOAZJ10@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:14:35 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:14:40 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:14:39 -0000 > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:17 +0100 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > >> You are providing reasons for the package approach: if it is har= d for > >> the user to put the dll in the correct directory, let Emacs do i= t. > > > > No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct > > directory. >=20 > The user needs to know the correct directory (where "correct" impli= es > "with write access to it and Emacs can find the dll there"). That's > anything but trivial even for a computer-savvy user The same user already unzipped the Emacs binary distro, so why exactl= y would it be hard for her to unzip another zip file from the same place? > (BTW, since when Emacs changed its policy and is targeted to geeks > only again?) Since about forever? > > It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to > > select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that w= e > > could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An > > entirely different issue. >=20 > Elisp packages downloaded by package.el are already saved on a > well-known directory where Emacs has write access to. So the proble= m is > solved. Solved my foot! we need to know that directory's absolute file name i= n advance, to hardcode it into the C sources of Emacs. How's that going to work, if package.el doesn't know where that directory will b= e until it is run by Emacs? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:16:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8ub-0005jq-06 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:16:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8uX-0005gV-OA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:16:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8uT-0000h5-KA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:16:33 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:62576) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8uT-0000gX-FO; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:16:29 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q03IGPl4002954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:16:25 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q03IGOkk013993 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:16:24 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q03IGNOH028567; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:16:23 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.58.85) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:16:23 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Christoph Scholtes'" References: <4EDEDD3D.7040607@gmail.com><700179F8E4844482BB852F10DD06B8AE@us.oracle.com> <4EFF974E.3060000@gmail.com> Subject: RE: emacs-20111206-r106632 Windows Binaries Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 10:16:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <4EFF974E.3060000@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AczIEfsesxWneoRlTm2gzU85dfs8XACMYUkQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A020202.4F0345F9.0149,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, 'Sean Sieger' , 'Emacs-Devel devel' X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:16:35 -0000 ping > From: Christoph Scholtes Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:14 PM > > > December 6 was the last published Windows binary. Can we > > look forward to more? It was really helpful when Sean was > > publishing them weekly. Thx. > > Yes. Sorry, I just started a new job and haven't been able to spend a > lot of time on this. > > One thing I am still waiting for is a statement from Chong or > Stefan as to whether I should build the weekly snapshot from a > source tarball and upload it too to the ftp site. > > Chong, Stefan, > Can you please comment on this? See > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00274.html > for reference. > > Thanks, Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:17:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri8vL-0006ES-O9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:17:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57191) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8vJ-0006EM-V3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:17:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8vI-0000sO-M0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:17:21 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:43043) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri8vI-0000s1-Bb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:17:20 -0500 Received: by wgbdt11 with SMTP id dt11so21723499wgb.30 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:17:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=smyQbRftyeRhOdCsoMXHrjpogFO0Wep2jGAV7r4SjJk=; b=joTtHHZLYGcxiZtCXXek8FG5K7c9K/VfOyeXF/IjigJYa4XEmqTHcOt2wJ0Qw5ogoh JJX5ViX13i0rUUYYckpXOoFYUoOE1RVAm81ktdD7qMl2l4a2IyuPZcvia6whKQpArCU4 RNzaq7LvGR4Zy2hY3QZyX0XCuHtvFo/HzW3Wk= Received: by 10.227.197.11 with SMTP id ei11mr10082179wbb.6.1325614638973; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (netinfo62.cnam.fr. [163.173.231.102]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f36sm12406362wbo.10.2012.01.03.10.17.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:17:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4445513E30; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 19:18:27 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Carsten Mattner Subject: What's in a feature? (was: Periodical releases) In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:00:05 +0100") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:18:26 +0100 Message-ID: <87ehvgps3x.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:17:22 -0000 Well, I am not in favor of a fixed calendar, a strict release cycle -- or whatever looks like it, like strong deadlines. While thinking again about it, I guess the problem lies in the meaning of "feature" -- since this meaning can go from very little things to core functionalities, there is no real test for each new "feature" to know whether discarding it is a safe move or a silly one. And this leaves the door open for too many discussions. So perhaps we could have three "feature freeze" steps: one for core functionalities, and another one for features that depends on big components like Gnus, Org, ERC, etc., and a last one for the rest of the code. Just a suggestion. -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:35:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri9Ch-0006NB-4T for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:35:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53708) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Ce-0006N2-Q0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:35:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Cd-0004Mo-Gt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:35:16 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:34633) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Cd-0004Mj-08 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:35:15 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9CY-0006sZ-RT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:35:10 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:35:10 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:35:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:34:55 +0100 Lines: 60 Message-ID: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:UdOn2KQie1MrUu+PkTRjIx78R6U= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:35:17 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Óscar Fuentes >> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:48:17 +0100 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> You are providing reasons for the package approach: if it is hard for >> >> the user to put the dll in the correct directory, let Emacs do it. >> > >> > No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct >> > directory. >> >> The user needs to know the correct directory (where "correct" implies >> "with write access to it and Emacs can find the dll there"). That's >> anything but trivial even for a computer-savvy user > > The same user Not necessarily the same user. But I admit that I'm nitpicking. > already unzipped the Emacs binary distro, so why exactly > would it be hard for her to unzip another zip file from the same > place? He must unzip the file on a very specific directory, not just on the same directory where he installs every program. BTW, zip files is a terrible way to install software on MS Windows. Only geeks who already decided to try Emacs go through the process of installing from a zip file. I find quite ironic that `make install' creates the Emacs icon on the Start menu but with the standard binary distribution the user need to figure out how to start Emacs. >> (BTW, since when Emacs changed its policy and is targeted to geeks >> only again?) > > Since about forever? Then lots of time was wasted on writing documentation that is clearly targeted to non-geeks. >> > It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to >> > select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we >> > could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An >> > entirely different issue. >> >> Elisp packages downloaded by package.el are already saved on a >> well-known directory where Emacs has write access to. So the problem is >> solved. > > Solved my foot! we need to know that directory's absolute file name in > advance, to hardcode it into the C sources of Emacs. How's that > going to work, if package.el doesn't know where that directory will be > until it is run by Emacs? You don't need to know the directory at compile time. GnuTLS and potentially other libraries (those that provide image support, for instance) are perfectly fine if you load them on demand at run time. I think that's what already happens with the GnuTLS on MS Windows. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:58:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri9Z6-0003q4-Hx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z4-0003px-5y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z2-00081G-TQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:26 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:46542) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z2-00080S-M3; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:24 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Yo-0000ol-Sh; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:58:11 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:08:29 +0200") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEX+4TbmiA7+xB6cOAP9 rBv+zh/2nBT+ux6NxeqrAAACO0lEQVQ4jW2UQY/TMBCFR0DEFRM2XFuzka8bGS1nuia5Zi0sztkG c6WRwX+fN+MkW62YVmn7Ps+MPTMuqWdrYpzn2TnXxxjpWo6sis39CprpWmajfXXknxmW0g44OOtD 3mwFa5RnHYRElzAPqruj/4GLUh9faa0LIc4wlyiqeQ/9oI0pgNfnfKA31r6jKgQPagDYgbd5IJMX HQJR4HikONBvqvSiM4QAqwKDhiMNi8dqtrYihPMC5nIEAW2LUCDaFA8GWicA1nkHhtaqDgCX40kL ADHUSWWnxuXlq70PG/BkLRddKlZbm1sBIWgAazu846TwrZ9GAXwOpeoG0gf3gGc63wnwSF539h7S vUMkm2v71tLrx+VpC2Utu1lVW2VvaigvPHRtH+1BPLYcnwfOkc9fxiM2hV11Skmo6CY8b88/x4q4 9MjR1Xz4aWoQyyxBzLOHyE10p4vtQthBIyOC2rbh+OlmA8gR0QyuKux7CFfAbX1jG7nia6i8NYFb OvKHOGhC/6Vu1VpWXo45McQO49oEKpFkfojTQihBWEfbeRq5J3tzSnQdfpg8rB7Szdz6VmO+tE+u 5xylaQx0HhKGUuMW0lIIRimkk+lxPXv3C7eTuBhw0KH1t6cUdyOMGg5YaezB+L6ImBqAJesDeY0M rf4Ldb3d8OAseBlsCmDagOOpBTLJ/Qkpqt1DepHwjvGbT73oHYO43mKAJ4/t7qG2m4kNndhjI8Sd zeUfZzCOdfn/KMAVgC+8Xo4y/QPrQxN/3XuZqQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _Aerial (1)_: "A Coral Room" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1Ri9Yo-0000ol-Sh X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326221891.65098@jrtVzQBerRPMqaFU+SPSVg X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:58:27 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> What was the message exactly? > > Opening STARTTLS connection to `MY-SERVER-NAME:25' Ah, right, that's definitely from starttls.el. This means that 1) your SMTP server has announced that it offers STARTTLS, and 2) `open-network-stream' has determined that don't have built-in TLS support, and 3) that it thinks that you do have external TLS support of some kind. > I think the reason is that installing GnuTLS binaries installs > gnutls-cli executable on PATH. At least, if I remove all the > executables and leave only the shared libraries, the problem goes > away. `starttls-available-p' probably returned non-nil for you, I guess? It would be interesting to find out why it didn't work, then. Could you put the gnutls-cli program back into your path and edebug through `starttls-open-stream-gnutls' (I think) to see what goes wrong? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 13:58:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri9Z8-0003wh-Ma for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z5-0003q2-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z2-00081B-T1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:27 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:46544) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Z2-00080W-M5; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:58:24 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9Yq-0000om-Ey; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:58:12 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: <8339bzs0fp.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 01 Jan 2012 21:11:06 +0200") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:58:07 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <8339bzs0fp.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEX+4TbmiA7+xB6cOAP9 rBv+zh/2nBT+ux6NxeqrAAACO0lEQVQ4jW2UQY/TMBCFR0DEFRM2XFuzka8bGS1nuia5Zi0sztkG c6WRwX+fN+MkW62YVmn7Ps+MPTMuqWdrYpzn2TnXxxjpWo6sis39CprpWmajfXXknxmW0g44OOtD 3mwFa5RnHYRElzAPqruj/4GLUh9faa0LIc4wlyiqeQ/9oI0pgNfnfKA31r6jKgQPagDYgbd5IJMX HQJR4HikONBvqvSiM4QAqwKDhiMNi8dqtrYihPMC5nIEAW2LUCDaFA8GWicA1nkHhtaqDgCX40kL ADHUSWWnxuXlq70PG/BkLRddKlZbm1sBIWgAazu846TwrZ9GAXwOpeoG0gf3gGc63wnwSF539h7S vUMkm2v71tLrx+VpC2Utu1lVW2VvaigvPHRtH+1BPLYcnwfOkc9fxiM2hV11Skmo6CY8b88/x4q4 9MjR1Xz4aWoQyyxBzLOHyE10p4vtQthBIyOC2rbh+OlmA8gR0QyuKux7CFfAbX1jG7nia6i8NYFb OvKHOGhC/6Vu1VpWXo45McQO49oEKpFkfojTQihBWEfbeRq5J3tzSnQdfpg8rB7Szdz6VmO+tE+u 5xylaQx0HhKGUuMW0lIIRimkk+lxPXv3C7eTuBhw0KH1t6cUdyOMGg5YaezB+L6ImBqAJesDeY0M rf4Ldb3d8OAseBlsCmDagOOpBTLJ/Qkpqt1DepHwjvGbT73oHYO43mKAJ4/t7qG2m4kNndhjI8Sd zeUfZzCOdfn/KMAVgC+8Xo4y/QPrQxN/3XuZqQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _Aerial (1)_: "A Coral Room" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1Ri9Yq-0000om-Ey X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326221892.58117@9WZ+ZdF/3sLwGp9csG1zuw X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:58:28 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> (setq smtpmail-stream-type 'plain) > > Thanks, this did the trick. > > Perhaps we should mention this in NEWS (assuming this is not a bug > that we will fix ;-). Users who get binary distributions that were > configured to use GnuTLS might bump into this like I did. I think we should fix the bug. :-) But we should probably mention this in NEWS, anyway... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:04:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri9ew-0006Z5-Nv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:04:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38920) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9eu-0006Yw-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:04:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9et-0000sW-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:04:28 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:41562) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9et-0000sS-Kb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:04:27 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 03 Jan 2012 19:04:25 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-30.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.30]) [62.47.50.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 03 Jan 2012 20:04:25 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/XmPwjLHHXHP1YdzLBhCHduRULaLudvXiIpQiInI CBKS34XtzPxztX Message-ID: <4F035138.8000904@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:04:24 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Burton Samograd Subject: Re: Problem with bzr updated sources from today (Jan 3rd, 2012) References: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> <4F034447.4080102@gmx.at> <87hb0cfyll.fsf@interalia.com> In-Reply-To: <87hb0cfyll.fsf@interalia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:04:29 -0000 > Problem with build dependencies? A mixture of earlier specifying (defsubst window-total-height (&optional window) "..." (window-total-size window)) with window-total-size defined in C (my bad) and later doing (defun window-total-size (&optional window horizontal) "..." (if horizontal (window-total-width window) (window-total-height window))) with window-total-height/-width in C (Chong's contribution). I'm not sure what precisely triggered it now, though. What was the last time you pulled before January 3rd? martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:21:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ri9vA-0007pK-LV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:21:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34357) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9v8-0007fL-1a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:21:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9v6-0003Oi-Ql for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:21:13 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44495) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9v6-0003OY-AV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:21:12 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ri9v4-0000Ka-RW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:21:10 +0100 Received: from 184.71.240.90 ([184.71.240.90]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:21:10 +0100 Received: from bsamograd by 184.71.240.90 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:21:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Burton Samograd Subject: Re: Problem with bzr updated sources from today (Jan 3rd, 2012) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:17:13 -0700 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <878vlofveu.fsf@interalia.com> References: <87obukk7tn.fsf@interalia.com> <4F034447.4080102@gmx.at> <87hb0cfyll.fsf@interalia.com> <4F035138.8000904@gmx.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 184.71.240.90 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:lTZkRhLC/HJcy4rnzxOGLxCvlgo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:15 -0000 martin rudalics writes: >> Problem with build dependencies? > > A mixture of earlier specifying > > (defsubst window-total-height (&optional window) > "..." > (window-total-size window)) > > with window-total-size defined in C (my bad) and later doing > > (defun window-total-size (&optional window horizontal) > "..." > (if horizontal > (window-total-width window) > (window-total-height window))) > > with window-total-height/-width in C (Chong's contribution). I'm not > sure what precisely triggered it now, though. What was the last time > you pulled before January 3rd? Thanks for the explanation. I last pulled at least a couple of months ago. I'll try and remember to do a make clean after my next pull. -- Burton Samograd From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:38:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiABx-0007gM-P9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:38:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32935) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiABu-0007f9-UL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:38:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiABt-0006kz-O1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:38:34 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:42125) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiABt-0006kt-Es for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:38:33 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800400LYBLI00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:38:31 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX8002B9MK6UVV0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:38:31 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:38:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:38:35 -0000 > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:34:55 +0100 >=20 > >> Elisp packages downloaded by package.el are already saved on a > >> well-known directory where Emacs has write access to. So the pro= blem is > >> solved. > > > > Solved my foot! we need to know that directory's absolute file na= me in > > advance, to hardcode it into the C sources of Emacs. How's that > > going to work, if package.el doesn't know where that directory wi= ll be > > until it is run by Emacs? >=20 > You don't need to know the directory at compile time. GnuTLS and > potentially other libraries (those that provide image support, for > instance) are perfectly fine if you load them on demand at run time= . Yes, but loaded from where? They can either be in the same directory where the Emacs executable lives, or on Path, or in the Windows's system32 directory, or in some other place, but in the latter case we must pass an absolute file name to LoadLibrary. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:41:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAEy-0002Is-CG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:41:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51823) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAEw-0002Ic-5m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:41:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAEs-0007tY-A1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:41:42 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:39783) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAEs-0007tA-1o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:41:38 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800J00MJ9FD00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:41:35 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX800J87MP98D50@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:41:35 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:41:39 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Message-id: <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:41:43 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:57:35 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> What was the message exactly? > > > > Opening STARTTLS connection to `MY-SERVER-NAME:25' > > Ah, right, that's definitely from starttls.el. This means that 1) your > SMTP server has announced that it offers STARTTLS, and 2) > `open-network-stream' has determined that don't have built-in TLS > support, and 3) that it thinks that you do have external TLS support of > some kind. > > > I think the reason is that installing GnuTLS binaries installs > > gnutls-cli executable on PATH. At least, if I remove all the > > executables and leave only the shared libraries, the problem goes > > away. > > `starttls-available-p' probably returned non-nil for you, I guess? It > would be interesting to find out why it didn't work, then. Could you > put the gnutls-cli program back into your path and edebug through > `starttls-open-stream-gnutls' (I think) to see what goes wrong? Does TLS work on Windows with gnutls-cli.exe? I though it didn't, because that mode of operation depended on signals that Windows doesn't support. That's why we switched to linking against libgnutls, no? Or am I confused? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:42:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAFL-00038y-Mi for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:42:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52151) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAFH-000378-Ei for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:42:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAFG-00083p-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:42:03 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:49540) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAFF-00082v-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:42:02 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAF8-0001SW-FY; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:41:54 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Rene Subject: Re: Using smtps over port 465 in emacs24 In-Reply-To: (Rene's message of "Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:16:35 +0000 (UTC)") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:41:38 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87iplgrihh.fsf@zelenka.enovance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEW2tbwYFxpNTFFua3Gj oacjIiWLiI7b2+MIBwkzMjbVxXvuAAACaUlEQVQ4jU2UsWulQBDGp5BYbyH42hUObF0Q0gm3mNqA ELuQXba2CFh7EPDKZxBu/9v7Zlbf3fCa+Ms33+7szNA6qBERrzj4r3EYaJNQQo9Rqe0MAepeHJdg KC/wO8YiNnujJeo4qDKBX8aGEHrb/TTGNCCjOhVH1FVVGWfaRCZVlqLQ+sNobUzgcEbH4WtQksq5 0FT83dreG6MP+Ky0qSnuGt+dCd7aLkBd31VJ2zhFJGpZ4IlscLA5CkVrAYEA2z0RZb2AcaB1jOLs vCXqWGIaARtABdBafO1mSNj+gAIWBplafF/yBRLHYKR1r+M3W3S0LPlsbeYkF60x7t+4hO9yBpkl 5KpjQev3s/7BAIIFmTIrgFNpXbXBC8hhIrmg+ErXa33OinyZMwYHg73iU1kBCAH1DeYAzncXmDPq ufZ8Kihs6C4FUf/xqic2r9gjvPwD7lUUfPHev9MD2NDUBSkBre/ozJUx+PPFx8WDo4TzBfCOH3cu idb/g/np3fYuigfn8t2SnzXxfXAxouz6JiBPVyfy9gT3nW9+gdmGPph48EO9ioLEBIV3ITQRL3jT UsWOPgHml+XToVFG7pJUdysKgDm0phkAcENI0DzUCZAXBNjWifsKXUgZXgPH5f5RDKSxQpJkAK6p I4ONWxHu3qIRLH6ujgd3+1ZM3HLS6xYRAMaSgZrOXD0GC/VoNA8Vg0dbS3C7yeCUGOWoa07mLpAU KyRSYofexhjqmBQ8/dPOyVLwdKgyLQA+GJOm4mmHtXpbE1CjkLQCkOihgM3IPvz/uF25nrskbZnp Wj9pM7w9CERHxA5KG+gv4DRspt3iPacAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _50 Words For Snow_: "Snowflake" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiAF8-0001SW-FY X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326224514.67364@2H19mt+W8mY9yJLkpqJ95A X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:42:06 -0000 Rene writes: >> (setq smtpmail-stream-type 'ssl) > > It's good you mentionned this because I never could have figured this out by > myself from the info file nor from the smtpmail.el file. I've now added this to the doc string. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:44:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAI5-0003x9-MY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:44:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38904) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAI3-0003wV-Fv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:44:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAI2-0000Gl-Np for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:44:55 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:41359) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAI0-0000F4-0n; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:44:52 -0500 Received: by wgbdt11 with SMTP id dt11so21806443wgb.30 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:44:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=cPs8AcJJQwJK5R5rfbUWYO/a7Z06EkcezdEj2UsalLE=; b=olmbAVOxywOOIuRH/CFHKa7f5c14d6EWXuLYBw00KlLMfEqr8mELF72PTHA95whh8J wxWuN2b/fpXbcgH9A2IWPsPdaLoJ2gJWSCUWmtp536JxhSK4wP7SPirKPIIUeouSdjug 7hUz2cNC5PZvTKykdCt/DCDkEGTGGrcnCq1qQ= Received: by 10.227.202.142 with SMTP id fe14mr29266546wbb.10.1325619890340; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:44:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (fon75-1-78-192-119-5.fbxo.proxad.net. [78.192.119.5]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ga4sm40383378wbb.4.2012.01.03.11.44.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 Jan 2012 11:44:49 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A26EB13E30; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:45:57 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Merging Org 7.8.02 before Emacs 24.1 In-Reply-To: <87fwg4hu3y.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:36:33 +0800") References: <877h1ncs1u.fsf@altern.org> <87fwg4hu3y.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:45:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87obuky3gq.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 Cc: "Jambunathan K." , schulte eric , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:44:56 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > OK, please go ahead and merge Org 7.8 to trunk. Done. -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:46:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAJH-0004W8-44 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:46:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39465) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAJE-0004W0-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:46:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAJC-0000ZL-Po for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:46:08 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:41944) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAJC-0000ZB-JG; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:46:06 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAJ6-0001X1-Ci; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:46:00 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:41:39 +0200") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:45:57 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEW2tbwYFxpNTFFua3Gj oacjIiWLiI7b2+MIBwkzMjbVxXvuAAACaUlEQVQ4jU2UsWulQBDGp5BYbyH42hUObF0Q0gm3mNqA ELuQXba2CFh7EPDKZxBu/9v7Zlbf3fCa+Ms33+7szNA6qBERrzj4r3EYaJNQQo9Rqe0MAepeHJdg KC/wO8YiNnujJeo4qDKBX8aGEHrb/TTGNCCjOhVH1FVVGWfaRCZVlqLQ+sNobUzgcEbH4WtQksq5 0FT83dreG6MP+Ky0qSnuGt+dCd7aLkBd31VJ2zhFJGpZ4IlscLA5CkVrAYEA2z0RZb2AcaB1jOLs vCXqWGIaARtABdBafO1mSNj+gAIWBplafF/yBRLHYKR1r+M3W3S0LPlsbeYkF60x7t+4hO9yBpkl 5KpjQev3s/7BAIIFmTIrgFNpXbXBC8hhIrmg+ErXa33OinyZMwYHg73iU1kBCAH1DeYAzncXmDPq ufZ8Kihs6C4FUf/xqic2r9gjvPwD7lUUfPHev9MD2NDUBSkBre/ozJUx+PPFx8WDo4TzBfCOH3cu idb/g/np3fYuigfn8t2SnzXxfXAxouz6JiBPVyfy9gT3nW9+gdmGPph48EO9ioLEBIV3ITQRL3jT UsWOPgHml+XToVFG7pJUdysKgDm0phkAcENI0DzUCZAXBNjWifsKXUgZXgPH5f5RDKSxQpJkAK6p I4ONWxHu3qIRLH6ujgd3+1ZM3HLS6xYRAMaSgZrOXD0GC/VoNA8Vg0dbS3C7yeCUGOWoa07mLpAU KyRSYofexhjqmBQ8/dPOyVLwdKgyLQA+GJOm4mmHtXpbE1CjkLQCkOihgM3IPvz/uF25nrskbZnp Wj9pM7w9CERHxA5KG+gv4DRspt3iPacAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _50 Words For Snow_: "Snowflake" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiAJ6-0001X1-Ci X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326224760.60404@FLDorm2kaFk0x6jJy2qyfA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:46:10 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > Does TLS work on Windows with gnutls-cli.exe? I though it didn't, > because that mode of operation depended on signals that Windows > doesn't support. Oh, yeah, that rings a bell. If this is the case, the simple fix here is to have `starttls-available-p' return nil on Windows. Does anybody remember whether starttls.el is supposed to work under Windows or not? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:48:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiALn-0005W5-NQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:48:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39979) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiALk-0005Tl-QF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:48:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiALg-0000sQ-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:48:44 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:34325) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiALg-0000sL-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:48:40 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiALc-0003B9-Ai for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:36 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:36 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:36 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:23 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1xnoJVM87gzTpA5oZRl3S31pUxU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:48:45 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> Elisp packages downloaded by package.el are already saved on a >> >> well-known directory where Emacs has write access to. So the problem is >> >> solved. >> > >> > Solved my foot! we need to know that directory's absolute file name in >> > advance, to hardcode it into the C sources of Emacs. How's that >> > going to work, if package.el doesn't know where that directory will be >> > until it is run by Emacs? >> >> You don't need to know the directory at compile time. GnuTLS and >> potentially other libraries (those that provide image support, for >> instance) are perfectly fine if you load them on demand at run time. > > Yes, but loaded from where? They can either be in the same directory > where the Emacs executable lives, or on Path, or in the Windows's > system32 directory, or in some other place, but in the latter case we > must pass an absolute file name to LoadLibrary. If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:51:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAOe-0000g3-D0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59726) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOb-0000ZU-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOZ-0001RR-Tv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:41 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48985) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOZ-0001Qt-Of for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:39 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOS-0001bF-QG; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:51:32 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Leo Subject: Re: Typo?: (gnus-topic-find-topology topic nil nil gnus-topic-topology) In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:33:57 +0800") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:49:45 +0100 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEW2tbwYFxpNTFFua3Gj oacjIiWLiI7b2+MIBwkzMjbVxXvuAAACaUlEQVQ4jU2UsWulQBDGp5BYbyH42hUObF0Q0gm3mNqA ELuQXba2CFh7EPDKZxBu/9v7Zlbf3fCa+Ms33+7szNA6qBERrzj4r3EYaJNQQo9Rqe0MAepeHJdg KC/wO8YiNnujJeo4qDKBX8aGEHrb/TTGNCCjOhVH1FVVGWfaRCZVlqLQ+sNobUzgcEbH4WtQksq5 0FT83dreG6MP+Ky0qSnuGt+dCd7aLkBd31VJ2zhFJGpZ4IlscLA5CkVrAYEA2z0RZb2AcaB1jOLs vCXqWGIaARtABdBafO1mSNj+gAIWBplafF/yBRLHYKR1r+M3W3S0LPlsbeYkF60x7t+4hO9yBpkl 5KpjQev3s/7BAIIFmTIrgFNpXbXBC8hhIrmg+ErXa33OinyZMwYHg73iU1kBCAH1DeYAzncXmDPq ufZ8Kihs6C4FUf/xqic2r9gjvPwD7lUUfPHev9MD2NDUBSkBre/ozJUx+PPFx8WDo4TzBfCOH3cu idb/g/np3fYuigfn8t2SnzXxfXAxouz6JiBPVyfy9gT3nW9+gdmGPph48EO9ioLEBIV3ITQRL3jT UsWOPgHml+XToVFG7pJUdysKgDm0phkAcENI0DzUCZAXBNjWifsKXUgZXgPH5f5RDKSxQpJkAK6p I4ONWxHu3qIRLH6ujgd3+1ZM3HLS6xYRAMaSgZrOXD0GC/VoNA8Vg0dbS3C7yeCUGOWoa07mLpAU KyRSYofexhjqmBQ8/dPOyVLwdKgyLQA+GJOm4mmHtXpbE1CjkLQCkOihgM3IPvz/uF25nrskbZnp Wj9pM7w9CERHxA5KG+gv4DRspt3iPacAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _50 Words For Snow_: "Snowflake" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiAOS-0001bF-QG X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326225092.94287@gegVX6E+V4HH6JlsAbUMIA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:51:42 -0000 Leo writes: > This line in gnus-topic-kill-group (gnus-topic.el) seems problematic. Is > it a typo? > > (gnus-topic-find-topology topic nil nil gnus-topic-topology) > > where the signature of gnus-topic-find-topology is: > > (gnus-topic-find-topology TOPIC &optional TOPOLOGY LEVEL REMOVE) Yes, so if `gnus-topic-topology' is non-nil, the topology in question will be removed. Which seems natural for `gnus-topic-kill-group', I think. Unless I'm misreading the code. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 14:51:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAOl-00014B-M3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59740) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOc-0000Za-0x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOa-0001RX-0w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:41 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48988) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOZ-0001RA-Rx; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:51:39 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAOT-0001bM-Vt; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:51:34 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:47:03 -0500") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:51:28 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87aa68dfao.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEW2tbwYFxpNTFFua3Gj oacjIiWLiI7b2+MIBwkzMjbVxXvuAAACaUlEQVQ4jU2UsWulQBDGp5BYbyH42hUObF0Q0gm3mNqA ELuQXba2CFh7EPDKZxBu/9v7Zlbf3fCa+Ms33+7szNA6qBERrzj4r3EYaJNQQo9Rqe0MAepeHJdg KC/wO8YiNnujJeo4qDKBX8aGEHrb/TTGNCCjOhVH1FVVGWfaRCZVlqLQ+sNobUzgcEbH4WtQksq5 0FT83dreG6MP+Ky0qSnuGt+dCd7aLkBd31VJ2zhFJGpZ4IlscLA5CkVrAYEA2z0RZb2AcaB1jOLs vCXqWGIaARtABdBafO1mSNj+gAIWBplafF/yBRLHYKR1r+M3W3S0LPlsbeYkF60x7t+4hO9yBpkl 5KpjQev3s/7BAIIFmTIrgFNpXbXBC8hhIrmg+ErXa33OinyZMwYHg73iU1kBCAH1DeYAzncXmDPq ufZ8Kihs6C4FUf/xqic2r9gjvPwD7lUUfPHev9MD2NDUBSkBre/ozJUx+PPFx8WDo4TzBfCOH3cu idb/g/np3fYuigfn8t2SnzXxfXAxouz6JiBPVyfy9gT3nW9+gdmGPph48EO9ioLEBIV3ITQRL3jT UsWOPgHml+XToVFG7pJUdysKgDm0phkAcENI0DzUCZAXBNjWifsKXUgZXgPH5f5RDKSxQpJkAK6p I4ONWxHu3qIRLH6ujgd3+1ZM3HLS6xYRAMaSgZrOXD0GC/VoNA8Vg0dbS3C7yeCUGOWoa07mLpAU KyRSYofexhjqmBQ8/dPOyVLwdKgyLQA+GJOm4mmHtXpbE1CjkLQCkOihgM3IPvz/uF25nrskbZnp Wj9pM7w9CERHxA5KG+gv4DRspt3iPacAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _50 Words For Snow_: "Snowflake" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiAOT-0001bM-Vt X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326225094.07497@qmZMX3EFLQb5ss/6gpoarA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:51:50 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > Why are we talking only about Windows? Do packages of Emacs 24 > development snapshots on GNU/Linux come with GnuTLS in the same > package? If they do, then I agree that the Windows binaries should > also include GnuTLS; but if not, I don't see why Windows should be > special in this regard. We don't want to confuse users by providing > functionality only on some platforms. And since the (major) binary GNU/Linux distributions will be providing the gnutls libraries with Emacs, then we should, too? :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 15:09:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAfo-0000LK-I6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:09:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39288) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAfm-0000L9-9Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:09:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAfl-0004EK-B5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:09:26 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:41808) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAfl-0004Dr-2D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:09:25 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LX800J00NTHH400@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:09:23 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LX800J5HNZM8D90@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:09:23 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:09:28 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83y5topmyv.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:09:27 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:23 +0100 >=20 > If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by > package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same direc= tory > (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? Because load-path is used for loading Lisp, but not for loading DLLs. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 15:26:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAvz-00065H-Jt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:26:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38887) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAvx-00065B-ES for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:26:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAvw-0006z0-Fi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:26:09 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36743) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAvw-0006yt-AX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:26:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAvu-0001k1-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:26:06 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:26:06 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:26:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:25:48 +0100 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <87mxa4sfcj.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y5topmyv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:qKFk49ElzPjhXR7xcGxprdgeG2c= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:26:10 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by >> package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory >> (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? > > Because load-path is used for loading Lisp, but not for loading DLLs. That has an obvious answer. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 15:28:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiAy2-0007gk-Gz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:28:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39442) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAxz-0007aX-OZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:28:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAxw-0007F2-JH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:28:15 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:39914) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAxw-0007EK-Bx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:28:12 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiAxn-00028f-Gv; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:28:03 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Katsumi Yamaoka Subject: Re: git.gnus.org In-Reply-To: (Katsumi Yamaoka's message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:16:56 +0900") Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 21:27:17 +0100 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEULBQf+/vX68N3YyLju 4M8JBAUHAgP9+eYUDA6Ba1vND1piAAACMElEQVQ4jYWUoc7rMAyFTTKFDpVHk/YAHSntnwcIcXRh Scs7EhpypRaXLG97j53sb9nNpG3KV/t4ts/orie9nXPeyXmuekMneHjvR+fS/QRdh3uvZ3TPdAFJ rn/6XlDLJaB7vx++bwckfUFy5z3IqCEkAe5y37+QrAIIIP1Q5BxCxgo6FRjKJmcvIJqL1u6NAL0n i7dDVBSkBxLhnvRs+4FcAtIbYPi0eyG/wEsAUWgAyV4QoQTp4ZNNZDK4ZwnpEUKSqWwmBDJM8rII GdOdHMAnxymTMYaXmcgWFJwIxQ4fE5fJzBzMbQpsVZ7QjmEzMbIxFLJhw2E7BIhEjnGCSEaaGyME Iit5ARwXNrSBMA5E/FMiIBHjjF9Am0Vd/GcXoNqohqVRmW4RNew1QkCczSZEHgm0Hw1wQAR6vm0W HbgAY+IcbAW3IGBM5AAI6iRzygHl2gY8QLhNZssATPNEAp40VnEzW4jnGd9MBZLqL8eIcaCPUjci etVAc1lqyYSPBU/Y/aUa0hIOKCbEuCwLQGndxWCZpUy0bIno5PFybR4YEqOLObBoSdsbyBQwWIgj DBKHB5BlKL/Lk2VPiiwpJR1hDl+EnwOJtS7cZd9047zs1VpzySzIZspWJy7bnlQewFpNhLlirQSI n8pHm4ttw1L7b4QYpxI1yAsSqxgnOTWCOqcUNWGzWvWgWq2oB1O1WkrNnIM68HRtQl1iz9Pn/wco +Odi8/rP0KX2B3NGKPkHIkEooHPI2L8AAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Digital Mystikz's _Return II Space_: "Unexpected" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiAxn-00028f-Gv X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326227283.62506@X9PJqsClU4EE9xTee2YLvA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:28:16 -0000 Katsumi Yamaoka writes: > Hi Lars, could you please reopen git.gnus.org? The machine has been up a few days again now, but it'll be taken down again for an hour or so tomorrow evening while I move it back to its permanent place, probably. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 17:23:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiClK-0006x0-7n for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:23:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43355) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiClH-0006wt-HB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:23:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiClG-0006wM-Hj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:23:15 -0500 Received: from smtp-02.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.91]:55139) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiClG-0006wE-Cs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:23:14 -0500 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.144-85-205-173.dsl.vtx.ch [144.85.205.173]) by smtp-02.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id 6970660208; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:23:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 4F7816614B; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:23:11 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Periodical releases Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:23:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:40:20 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 194.38.175.91 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:23:16 -0000 > The solution for that is to let it evolve in a branch for longer than > one release cycle while merging finished changes to the release > branch and deliver those features sooner. I agree with Eli's explanation here (you can take the lexbind branch or the concurrency branch as another example), but there's a more positive way to look at it: Take the "trunk" as the branch on which we do those long-term changes, while the "emacs-23", or "emacs-24" branch is the stable branch from which we make "regular" releases. If you take this point of view as a starting point, you might come up with suggestions for changes which we may be able to implement. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 18:55:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiECW-000842-M7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:55:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46211) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiECT-00082Y-Sn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:55:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiECS-00051O-Kj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:55:25 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:52215) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiECS-000512-Fj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:55:24 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiECQ-0005J1-6R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:22 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:22 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:22 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Included libraries in the Windows binary distribution Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:08 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 11 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEUAAACAfHnOzMgAAAFJ QTgDAgIyLCYPDQokHhj29PKZ3Xj8AAACTklEQVQ4jW2SvW/bMBDFL2CYdIwCo80aDS2yEaDleEwb RekowKblMQUciqNTWaLGAKEpri269L/tUZI/0ydApPAj7z0eBX+P9TtsBe9A+B8Q7m3bB3/ot/fg Bj/u4ORmW29vx8f4cRxuA+zAr5n5VFyGm2A7cJGZRP8Mwz4whDfdmus0in/UJ+FGsJl8BnL1os4v tyAIgnbyBejb/Aq+duQ68AB1HVwA6PoKTNALNpM7gHP9CvASBImqmxKklIsY9YSgAXzJWCrnHEin rJNK5tCJ4kqFBJSy0kstd8ALSym5wEc+98D2wBvHvQm0Hgk+cgHxRq8dOMOpz7ONG/QeHzCVlLYr FQziOOlTnWstrTIKksYmmK7uvYEAhSjFYfWgC06rvICdGBCKQwqcAZ0rgAM2IZSbJZDGwpFoCqdU kHvLODoQ4LyzYuPndDq0eZLY1dytTGbqvm20TKdn6/t7W52uzHRkhDWMMIFgQoYI7hBUfDgyRDEG UVsPpiO/YzVdZdOZ0SbDTD4ucFs1eW5nrv5eVY0a5cyb+wSMlVqXoItSZ1oXtM8bTYA/KFuWa6cb mdfLfj27nYjMyblwT04ValYXwPA0mJbTbDzL69K9rpumqt0ba1ty609KOOeMM+bHCCddnwU77BHz Frxr1p4ICBLxSMAj/nSHSoFNMGks15NDQHyZCLTWzhPMwLr8fUW8xdZjEA8G8SJO8Lp51xJ6UKZt BXSpCBxJbMb0CLQnxjeBXSzvSbCpeFH4B9Hl3nLKfBiB5eZrsTyoRLFjQvwDSGAB6k9Ldd0AAAAA SUVORK5CYII= Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: The Art of Noise's _Influence (1)_: "Ode To Don Jose" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:kLXBS2Dcm79KtT0+Ap1vYmqCqlM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:55:27 -0000 There's been a lot of discussion about including libgnutls with the Emacs binaries, and I'm obviously all for that. But nobody has mentioned libxml2. I'd rather like to have that included, too, so that people can read HTML in Emacs. So what are the "guidelines", if any, about what libraries get included in the binary Windows builds? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 19:36:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiEq6-0003Y6-6B for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:36:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58239) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiEq2-0003Y0-Vp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:36:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiEq1-0002OB-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:36:18 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54067) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiEq1-0002O7-Ky for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:36:17 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiEq0-00039L-1o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:36:16 +0100 Received: from red.stonehenge.com ([208.79.95.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:36:16 +0100 Received: from merlyn by red.stonehenge.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:36:16 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Subject: grep-changelog in the emacs distro Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:36:02 -0800 Organization: Stonehenge Consulting Services; Portland, Oregon, USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: red.stonehenge.com x-mayan-date: Long count = 12.19.19.0.7; tzolkin = 2 Manik; haab = 15 Kankin User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:z32wnqKXrOCqsMKd4LGZRqgsNJE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:36:20 -0000 'grep-changelog' is apparently the *only* thing in the current emacs HEAD that requires Perl. Would it be possible to put its build and install behind a configure switch so that a variant of Emacs might be built and packaged that does *not* require Perl? (Yes, this is an odd thing for me to ask, but a co-worker is asking..., and as the Perl expert, I'd like to know.) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 20:09:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiFMZ-0000Bf-GD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:09:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54140) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFMW-0000BW-I1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:09:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFMT-0006RO-7H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:09:52 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:49220) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFMS-0006RC-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:09:49 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so13961450dak.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:09:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YqeAYkqP+sXWboATw5DDWO6svtu4pg45CCdKp6LPBN0=; b=jfmDWy+IcOnrwS45tyifoTbblNsF4OFiu02YkvsufUMszf2aLqKM08FtxcRvlgP0Fv H5IcdTuWG28jWf0lfNidFzknGdfoJm50RtjPcuR7VlNIOB+68wBSsrjVOUtpwRytkwr+ pDU42zFKAmzp5X0eYRQ1wu7v17CdrOipXYJfM= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr135540029pbv.6.1325639387219; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:09:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:09:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:09:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Included libraries in the Windows binary distribution To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:09:53 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 00:55, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrot= e: > But nobody has mentioned libxml2. =C2=A0I'd rather like to have that incl= uded, too, so that > people can read HTML in Emacs. Is the Windows port able to use libxml2? > So what are the "guidelines", if any, about what libraries get included > in the binary Windows builds? "None that is not strictly required" seems like a good start IMHO. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 20:13:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiFPp-0001Cj-7q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:13:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54744) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFPm-0001BZ-BG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:13:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFPl-0006n2-9R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:13:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFPk-0006my-Sg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:13:13 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiFPj-0007AJ-0s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:13:11 +0100 Received: from 123.114.37.7 ([123.114.37.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:13:11 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.37.7 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:13:11 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Typo?: (gnus-topic-find-topology topic nil nil gnus-topic-topology) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:12:52 +0800 Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.37.7 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZqiddJsjUGcdnK1UscZqwouJHGg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:13:15 -0000 On 2012-01-04 03:49 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Yes, so if `gnus-topic-topology' is non-nil, the topology in question > will be removed. Which seems natural for `gnus-topic-kill-group', I > think. Unless I'm misreading the code. Agree. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 22:10:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiHFX-0001IW-MO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:10:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40925) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHFV-0001IQ-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:10:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHFT-0005PY-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:10:45 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45134) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHFT-0005PU-Mi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:10:43 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHFT-0007z8-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:43 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:39 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: Included libraries in the Windows binary distribution Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:28 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEUqKjEFBQaLjpq5wtFN UV10c3k5jKpKAAACVUlEQVQ4jU2TzZKsIAyFgwN7mHL2XoT9FNE9Ytz3ILz/q9zgX7dVaulHzklC gGoRMYz4cYV2Q62VX9tBRpxXfg2jfYA8gEU6QbYXsNSAJ18SK7sx3xGjG9EGoq0QNcd6g33KOEjH wMF4aF4A54ru6wUQ6UjjkcJg0SUD0eiurb8jxvbhlt5ui9Q4erTjHcFM6C1W0npHj9naB8zmuyic F835fXgwENImnP/0+uFxgt5bnITpeH3GRwqlkXvA8DKqgfAGvLRVMB/gnZUNi6HGJ9NxTTn4C/iw RHUADZbB1d0Q3L9FJDykgHctj6dHQBeNOSMY4FNgQB/hlpLzu4me04xDacD1kp/1qsOPQUDhZmAY jG7gStevQZROrSz5OgGe6bo0w2RVCtYKaFb88wQqyImgWOsGSm8wFjXrAWArlZ/yA/g86Q2i/00+ mk+pzE233TAvybvYvYHlyaCsXuPfHjJ9fYA0YtQyqmV9dbBi2C8Q0o5RUq2yDmS+eLJvc9qxUvWZ 5hI54vWAuPNYl2knLIXnXowP4IMRoW7RQ+QyItZcIddmj7/cRVIbCEBbXdsPnuR+yzgBlLqWKHok Y4wmWEy79jlGm1YXRRf4U5j+Bhhj7dJAcW2AFv2ABUipIoVqgBVh+V5OIGnLDsxPMFpIwRE9GBA7 FkW0FsnzZrw0zaM/pELoS7c5qVPQPEoNaJZk4HRMewbNHls0V1aSPZyGlWbN82YU3AAYeC1TrjIu s/l5QN8iej6BPsbeG/lImVMqlVqU9pxuA627bTYHTbl6V3g/MPDP/1cl2JGpxyx8AAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Propaganda's _A Secret Wish (1)_: "Sorry For Laughing" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+s2E0tL+cz9kjE8TXuGSnRKa59I= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:10:46 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > Is the Windows port able to use libxml2? http://xmlsoft.org/ claims that libxml2 can be used on most operating systems. > "None that is not strictly required" seems like a good start IMHO. ed is the standard editor! -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 22:24:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiHTC-0003Rl-EL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:24:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34178) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHTA-0003Rf-IZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:24:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHT9-00072M-KF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:24:52 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:41913) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHT9-00072B-79 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:24:51 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA2F9707F2; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:24:45 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1751A1A2770; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:24:45 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Bastien Subject: What's in a feature? (was: Periodical releases) In-Reply-To: <87ehvgps3x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ehvgps3x.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:24:45 +0900 Message-ID: <87k45840aq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:24:53 -0000 Bastien writes: > While thinking again about it, I guess the problem lies in the > meaning of "feature" Bug: doesn't work as currently documented. Undocumented functionality: undocumented but works anyway. Feature: undocumented and doesn't work. For completeness: Miracle: working as currently documented. All of the above must be viewed from the context of the *current* content of the prospective release, *not* from the context of the release after addition of the feature. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 03 22:46:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiHnb-00075R-VA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:45:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56943) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHnZ-00075J-9P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:45:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHnY-0001CY-B7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:45:57 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:42987) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiHnY-0001CO-1Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:45:56 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2A39707EA; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:45:47 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49D4B1A2770; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:45:47 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:45:47 +0900 Message-ID: <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:45:58 -0000 =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by > package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory > (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? None, AFAICS. That's (actually, a sibling directory) is what XEmacs does[1], and what Python does (same directory, if desired). Footnotes:=20 [1] Except that we don't provide DLLs for download, for various reasons, the most important of which is that binary distributions are bug magnets that distract the maintainers disproportionately, and non-maintainers are generally unwilling to touch. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 00:10:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiJ6w-0006tg-8V for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42385) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ6r-0006r2-Sq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:09:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ6m-0004EG-7U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:09:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ6m-0004EC-4m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:09:52 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ6l-0004Um-JR; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:09:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:09:51 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-reply-to: (message from Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Included libraries in the Windows binary distribution References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:09:59 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:08 +0100 > > There's been a lot of discussion about including libgnutls with the > Emacs binaries, and I'm obviously all for that. But nobody has > mentioned libxml2. I'd rather like to have that included, too, so that > people can read HTML in Emacs. Making it possible to build Emacs on Windows with libxml2 is a standing todo item that I hope will be done soon. > So what are the "guidelines", if any, about what libraries get included > in the binary Windows builds? Like Juanma said: only those that are absolutely necessary for Emacs to run. For now, that's only libxpm (needed to display the tool-bar icons). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 00:10:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiJ7j-0007HK-Vv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42598) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ7h-0007H7-BO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ7d-0004PP-PJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37141) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ7d-0004PL-Lb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:45 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJ7d-0005yg-Av; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:10:45 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-reply-to: (message from Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:28 +0100) Subject: Re: Included libraries in the Windows binary distribution References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:10:50 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:10:28 +0100 > > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > Is the Windows port able to use libxml2? > > http://xmlsoft.org/ claims that libxml2 can be used on most operating > systems. That's not what Juanma asked. He asked whether _Emacs_ can use libxml2 on Windows. And the answer is "not yet". From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 00:21:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiJHw-0008Pv-M4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36582) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJHt-0008Mf-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJHs-0005b7-Ll for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37360) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJHs-0005b3-HB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:20 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiJHs-0006pO-33; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:21:20 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:21:22 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:45:47 +0900 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Óscar Fuentes writes: > > > If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by > > package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory > > (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? > > None, AFAICS. That's (actually, a sibling directory) is what XEmacs > does[1], and what Python does (same directory, if desired). Please don't say that without telling the details. There are people reading this thread who don't know enough about Windows and are likely to take this at face value. Once again: the way the current C code is written, Emacs _cannot_ load DLLs except from directories which Windows searches for dynamic libraries. Those directories do not include load-path, and therefore no amount of coding in package.el alone will be able to make package.el usable for downloading and installing DLLs (even if we resolve the issue of doing so from within a running Emacs session). Changes on the C level are needed to make that possible; but if we are going to make C-level changes, it would be much better to have DLL downloaded to the same directory where emacs.exe lives or (if the user so wishes) to some directory on PATH, because that's where DLLs are normally located. An alternative is to modify PATH to include site-lisp or some other directory on load-path, but that is a much worse idea, and it cannot be done from a running Emacs session anyway. > [1] Except that we don't provide DLLs for download, for various > reasons, the most important of which is that binary distributions are > bug magnets that distract the maintainers disproportionately, and > non-maintainers are generally unwilling to touch. That point was made in this thread more than once, but Ted is still pushing for it. Which is fine by me, assuming that someone will step forward and do the job. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 01:48:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiKeL-0002dw-FF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:48:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43751) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKeH-0002a2-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:48:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKeG-0007jA-Ll for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:48:33 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKeG-0007j6-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:48:32 -0500 Received: from [155.69.17.56] (port=51711 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKeF-0001na-DH; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:48:32 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y5topmyv.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:48:22 +0800 In-Reply-To: <83y5topmyv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:09:28 +0200") Message-ID: <87r4zgynd5.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:48:34 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: =C3=93scar Fuentes >> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:23 +0100 >> >> If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by >> package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory >> (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? > > Because load-path is used for loading Lisp, but not for loading DLLs. The code in a Lisp package can extract its package directory from the variable `load-file-name'. The Multi-file Packages node of the Lisp manual gives an example of this. I'm not saying we should distribute GnuTLS support via ELPA, only that the Package system is no technical barrier. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 01:58:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiKoJ-0003Oi-NX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:58:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKoH-0003Ml-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:58:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKoG-0000mK-0I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:58:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38331) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKoF-0000mG-Ri for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:58:51 -0500 Received: from [155.69.17.56] (port=51713 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKoE-0002QL-NY; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:58:51 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Subject: Re: grep-changelog in the emacs distro References: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:58:44 +0800 In-Reply-To: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> (Randal L. Schwartz's message of "Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:36:02 -0800") Message-ID: <87hb0cymvv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:58:53 -0000 merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes: > 'grep-changelog' is apparently the *only* thing in the current emacs HEAD > that requires Perl. > > Would it be possible to put its build and install behind a configure > switch so that a variant of Emacs might be built and packaged that does > *not* require Perl? AFAICT, grep-changelog is installed simply by copying into the install directory; Perl isn't required or that. And it's not used by any other part of Emacs either. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 02:03:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiKsp-0003v7-6z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:03:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54048) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKsm-0003us-0D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:03:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKsk-0001Jt-PN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:03:31 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:50866) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiKsi-0001J3-Oh; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:03:29 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7DF9707EA; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:03:26 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5899E1A2FD1; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:03:26 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:03:26 +0900 Message-ID: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:03:34 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > > =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > >=20 > > > If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by > > > package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same direc= tory > > > (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? > >=20 > > None, AFAICS. That's (actually, a sibling directory) is what XEmacs > > does[1], and what Python does (same directory, if desired). >=20 > Please don't say that without telling the details. There are people > reading this thread who don't know enough about Windows and are likely > to take this at face value. >=20 > Once again: the way the current C code is written, Emacs _cannot_ load > DLLs except from directories which Windows searches for dynamic > libraries. OK, you may be right (I mean, for XEmacs too, I concede your expertise on Emacs). I don't understand the ins and outs of the Windows native build, but it looks like support for a configurable modules directory was removed from that port of XEmacs after 21.4 (which was when I was reasonably familiar with the port), and what actually happens now is that modules built at XEmacs build time are installed in the same directory as the XEmacs binary. It's quite possible the alleged support was removed because it didn't actually work for the reasons you give. I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure that Python does support DLLs anywhere that a .py can be found, though, because where something lives on PYTHONPATH is essential to figuring out what its name (as a module in Python) is. > > [1] Except that we don't provide DLLs for download, for various > > reasons, the most important of which is that binary distributions are > > bug magnets that distract the maintainers disproportionately, and > > non-maintainers are generally unwilling to touch. >=20 > That point was made in this thread more than once, but Ted is still > pushing for it. Which is fine by me, assuming that someone will step > forward and do the job. In my experience, such volunteers are only reliable in the long run if they're paid to support Emacs by building installers etc. But it's a new year, so anything could happen! Good luck finding the volunteer! From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 02:54:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiLfr-0000Ka-J1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:54:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36125) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiLfp-0000KT-7Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:54:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiLfo-0008E0-BN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:54:13 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:55268) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiLfo-0008Dt-16 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:54:12 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q047s9D4000470; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:54:09 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q047s88P031559; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:54:08 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q047s8fC031558; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:54:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20228.1440.172574.968484@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:54:08 +0100 To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Subject: Re: grep-changelog in the emacs distro In-Reply-To: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:54:14 -0000 >>>>> On Tue, 03 Jan 2012, Randal L Schwartz wrote: > 'grep-changelog' is apparently the *only* thing in the current emacs > HEAD that requires Perl. AFAICS, Perl isn't required at build time, but only for running the grep-changelog script. > Would it be possible to put its build and install behind a configure > switch so that a variant of Emacs might be built and packaged that > does *not* require Perl? We've had similar discussions in Gentoo, and the conclusion was that doing such things isn't feasible. Emacs relies on several external programs. They're kind of "soft" dependencies which are required to perform various functions at runtime. So, if you take the road of removing grep-changelog if there's no Perl, then you should also remove other parts of Emacs if other programs are absent. For example, you'd have to remove tramp if there's no ftp, ssh, or sudo. ispell.el requires some spell checker. Functions for printing don't work if there's no print system (like cups or lpr) installed. vc*.el needs some version control system. Also, what are you going to do if Perl is installed on the system at a later time? You'd have to rebuild Emacs in that case. Ulrich From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 03:16:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiM0w-0003e1-9g for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:16:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM0u-0003ds-9V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:16:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM0t-0003Ea-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:16:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:39233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM0t-0003EW-1k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:15:59 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM0r-0005kz-QF; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:15:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:15:57 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Chong Yidong In-reply-to: <87r4zgynd5.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Chong Yidong on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:48:22 +0800) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y5topmyv.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgynd5.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:16:01 -0000 > From: Chong Yidong > Cc: Óscar Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:48:22 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Óscar Fuentes > >> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:48:23 +0100 > >> > >> If, at run time, you can find the elisp packages downloaded by > >> package.el, what's the problem with finding a dll on the same directory > >> (or a subdirectory of it, if you wish) ? > > > > Because load-path is used for loading Lisp, but not for loading DLLs. > > The code in a Lisp package can extract its package directory from the > variable `load-file-name'. The Multi-file Packages node of the Lisp > manual gives an example of this. The issue is not figuring out the directory where the DLL lives. The issue is instructing the code that needs to load that DLL where to look for it. Currently, we load the DLLs by specifying their basename, without leading directories, which causes the corresponding Windows API to search for the DLL in known places, as documented in the MS documentation. To change that and give Lisp programs control of where to look for DLLs, we need changes on the C level. The other problem is how to upgrade a DLL from an Emacs session that already uses the previous version of that DLL. I think this is hard without restarting Emacs, and not trivial even with restarting. > I'm not saying we should distribute GnuTLS support via ELPA, only that > the Package system is no technical barrier. The barrier I was talking about has nothing to do with package.el. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 03:21:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiM6K-00053e-B8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57367) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM6H-00051e-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM6G-00048n-51 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:33 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:39356) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM6G-00048i-3U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:32 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiM6F-0006DL-RR; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:21:31 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:21:34 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:03:26 +0900 > > I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure that Python does support > DLLs anywhere that a .py can be found, though, because where something > lives on PYTHONPATH is essential to figuring out what its name (as a > module in Python) is. That's also what I know (although my Python-related knowledge is considerably smaller than yours). But there is a difference between Python's .pyd DLLs and general-purpose DLLs such as libgnutls. The former are generally not useful for anything but Python programs. By contrast, the latter can be used by programs that have nothing to do with Emacs. For example, GnuTLS is used by wget (in fact, building the latest wget was the original reason why I built the latest GnuTLS on Windows). For this reason, I think we should give Emacs users an option to put the downloaded DLL in some directory that is not Emacs-specific, so that other programs could use it. > > > [1] Except that we don't provide DLLs for download, for various > > > reasons, the most important of which is that binary distributions are > > > bug magnets that distract the maintainers disproportionately, and > > > non-maintainers are generally unwilling to touch. > > > > That point was made in this thread more than once, but Ted is still > > pushing for it. Which is fine by me, assuming that someone will step > > forward and do the job. > > In my experience, such volunteers are only reliable in the long run if > they're paid to support Emacs by building installers etc. But it's a > new year, so anything could happen! Good luck finding the volunteer! Seconded. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 03:26:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiMBN-0005wA-FI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:26:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45239) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiMBK-0005vy-TW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:26:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiMBJ-0004iG-KH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:26:46 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:39635) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiMBJ-0004hv-6B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:26:45 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 04 Jan 2012 08:26:42 -0000 Received: from p57BB9820.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO detlef.gmx.de) [87.187.152.32] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 04 Jan 2012 09:26:42 +0100 X-Authenticated: #3708877 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/XD/E8if/X9wntlt+8wLDmRlSVuOBMq5P/+x1z2h vcf6X6x2Nyh8XM From: Michael Albinus To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: grep-changelog in the emacs distro References: <86d3b0l2x9.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <20228.1440.172574.968484@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:26:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20228.1440.172574.968484@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> (Ulrich Mueller's message of "Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:54:08 +0100") Message-ID: <87lipn7u14.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Randal L. Schwartz" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:26:47 -0000 Ulrich Mueller writes: > So, if you take the road of removing grep-changelog if there's no > Perl, then you should also remove other parts of Emacs if other > programs are absent. For example, you'd have to remove tramp if > there's no ftp, ssh, or sudo. I basically agree with your message about dependencies, but in the Tramp case it isn't precise. There are several alternative access methods for Tramp, if the quoted ones are not available. (progn (require 'tramp) (message "%s" (mapcar 'car tramp-methods))) Just my 2c :-) > Ulrich Best regards, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 05:02:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiNgJ-0004wN-Ra for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:02:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32931) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiNgH-0004wG-Gz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:02:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiNgG-0003gS-6s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:02:49 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:48925) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiNgG-0003gO-16 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:02:48 -0500 Received: by wgbdt11 with SMTP id dt11so22259030wgb.30 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:02:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=aR+mrlUBbpqx/IOkP2Avu6Mk4T1BvhmFW9yhrCWfbQU=; b=lPfFHcFNRiIixNzFDwRO85Gkchs1mKpxk+AKpZNAlZlIAqGyGmcC/5fObII1DeGufu 8/L3nc1iUEthbckpKyZrb7c+Kfd+Eh7dNJvmgDXROpO9+bs51tyKg7uXhYoGQBbbRQoU 5OIL4VtBWa1OdSiNZwqGkvD7kyZ6wmoj+jKVU= Received: by 10.227.206.66 with SMTP id ft2mr55232902wbb.8.1325671366985; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (fon75-1-78-192-119-5.fbxo.proxad.net. [78.192.119.5]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id di5sm133541286wib.3.2012.01.04.02.02.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 Jan 2012 02:02:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BF0AB13E30; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:03:54 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: What's in a feature? In-Reply-To: <87k45840aq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:24:45 +0900") References: <87ehvgps3x.fsf@gnu.org> <87k45840aq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:03:54 +0100 Message-ID: <87obuj9439.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." 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Turnbull" writes: > Miracle: working as currently documented. :) My suggestion is just to distinguish between important miracles (like resurrection) and unintrusive ones (like giving bread to the fishermen). -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 06:03:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiOcc-0005jT-LK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:03:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38425) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOcX-0005hJ-DR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:03:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOcQ-0005Xi-F2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:03:01 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54572) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOcQ-0005XD-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:02:54 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOcO-0001B5-EZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:02:52 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:02:52 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:02:52 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:02:30 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8739bv91dl.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4fbje8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83fwfwra0t.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:/55z6rKe/wthA3XRV613qcTAJc4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:03:05 -0000 On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:14 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: EZ> No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct EZ> directory. It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to EZ> select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we EZ> could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An EZ> entirely different issue. The addendum is "...and so GnuTLS is available to non-Emacs processes too" which is something I did not consider carefully but your mention of wget brought up. We don't want multiple versions of the GnuTLS DLL all over the place, that could be worse for security than a single outdated version. So the package.el install is not a good W32 solution to deliver GnuTLS, after all. On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:51:28 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> And since the (major) binary GNU/Linux distributions will be providing LMI> the gnutls libraries with Emacs, then we should, too? :-) We should find a way, yes. But we should be smart about it, and a GnuTLS installer, separate from Emacs, would benefit far more users and projects, and it would use the right APIs to deploy the DLL. On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:14 +0100 scar Fuentes wrote: F> The standard MS installers have a mechanism for detecting when a dll is F> in use and, if the result is positive, arrange things for updating it on F> the next restart or login. A poor's man method for detecting when a dll F> is in use is just trying to overwrite it (after you know that you have F> write access to the file). Because of this, I think we (emacs-devel and gnutls-devel) should just put together a W32 installer for GnuTLS. Obviously this would be connected to the GnuTLS project but I think Nikos (whose name I've misspelled as Nicos a few times) could use some help with such an installer. Is there another GNU project that provides a W32 DLL *self-updating* installer, so I can get them started with that project? I may end up owning that installer, we'll see what the GnuTLS developers want. But it would let GnuTLS issue updates, remove a release dependency between their project and Emacs, and remove the tedious requirement of downloading a zip file and installing it manually. On the Emacs side on W32, if GnuTLS is not installed, we should tell the user how to install it by pointing to the W32 installer (running it automatically is probably too aggressive). The more I think about it, the more appropriate this solution seems for everyone concerned. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 06:10:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiOjb-0007Ba-Fz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:10:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60765) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOjU-0007BH-70 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:10:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOjQ-0006rN-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:10:12 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48678) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOjQ-0006qx-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:10:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOjP-00047C-Lt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:10:07 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:10:07 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:10:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:05:38 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ToniLMjmxbo9yOarVTluWVKy8Gk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:10:17 -0000 On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:45:57 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Does TLS work on Windows with gnutls-cli.exe? I though it didn't, >> because that mode of operation depended on signals that Windows >> doesn't support. LMI> Oh, yeah, that rings a bell. LMI> If this is the case, the simple fix here is to have LMI> `starttls-available-p' return nil on Windows. LMI> Does anybody remember whether starttls.el is supposed to work under LMI> Windows or not? It can work, with a lot of fiddling, but is unreliable and causes many issues that are hard to replicate, timeouts especially. I don't know of anyone happily using it on W32 and think disabling it on W32 is a good choice. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 06:21:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiOuH-0000M2-G4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:21:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44491) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOuB-0000JK-Ud for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:21:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOu8-0008Pg-1G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:21:15 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:59958) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiOu6-0008PF-EL; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:21:10 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C719707DD; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:21:07 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9FD921A2FD1; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:21:07 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:07 +0900 Message-ID: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:21:19 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > For this reason, I think we should give Emacs users an option to put > the downloaded DLL in some directory that is not Emacs-specific, so > that other programs could use it. Well, as you know I'm not a Windows person, but my understanding is that one reason that DLL hell is called "DLL hell" is that programs install their own versions of DLLs *in the system directories* that for one reason or another are inappropriate for other programs. So in fact you're asking a lot of knowledge on the user's part to get this right. This is not unknown on other OSes. For example, on most GNU/Linux systems glibc will depend on a specific version of the kernel headers, which may or may not correspond to the kernel actually running on the system. So glibc has its private version of the kernel headers, which it then imposes on the whole system. This actually seems to work pretty well, but only because everybody knows that the most important thing is for libc to work! gnutls isn't going to have that priority. I think that the thing to do is for Emacs to install private versions of DLLs when it installs any at all, and if/when people complain about "bloat", add some logic (maybe in the installer routine) to check to see if there is an appropriate DLL already on the Windows DLL path. (Yes, I understand that implementing this isn't going to be all that simple either, but in principle I don't think Emacs should add to DLL hell.) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 06:33:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiP65-0004C6-Bo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:33:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54091) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiP62-0004Bx-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:33:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiP5y-0001q5-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:33:30 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:43670) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiP5y-0001q1-Dx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:33:26 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiP5x-0005DP-4I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:33:25 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:33:25 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:33:25 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:33:11 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAHlBMVEX+/vj49+7IwbhELCa0 q6H+//p/bWSckIamnpPh29AzxyFVAAACMElEQVQ4jZWTPW/bMBCGz4N3s0AGjSE0mLMKtjNDpPKm DhqyRgGp2TFEzoJgaYwFByj/bY8fltVsfSHTEp873lF6CQDbDdy1rfxQb7fhD7WAusLnqq5gB3XU DVUh0CfWi6oAYAs1jrD5/XBHsCGE4O8TwVU83kH94ohzmfvAVLLbrUD9UPsa1b811voP8PLrMwBC UvNhz/hIhgsOBKSUVFBUToNmFwUTEilkGCO6gWmSAX5BYMzkNQRAV2CyUzlOYwSJMEZjhvEZpcQr rUWFQOCljbHjNCFBdBzy/oDFbbhwLSpjy0eZH3sYMdSYJQ9llRm1hk7dpTtjrRS9LPse4oz1ewgb m2l+IBlhELqmVI6Y2hRBXIsLgeVptaTttIAwlRDedb6SNacW/FTTKMXx57tSuOMz3gLHMB7iG2Vi i1qbVgFXRapSFJii9Ls661F/B4WxqTwG4C2O2po2dRWWiFkpCnjxRXbsdKdOsExwHnvWVuQSv8cq 9oey8b2cWtx5jO60HUqrpXfOTDKHnvJNWrHvmcvP6umQOaoed95hXdFaiu8UjWXe3l/9+8V4NJzi QszpS8vng3N+tU32B/LXOIfaj2POnCNBkAt0aHKbKKVbwP4t97NoBvQH881eGHOXDJ5+ljZ6UbA5 ALLXVFPfrgpEChbtTDJ5FQi4Ngkkn4fGMmh4svUKuOwbg05HEIvf2CxBtSYsNURDpwNFr9AUOmWk I5ey0InGynRyytvJQf0FTIdjJvxCIigAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Static's _Eject Your Mind_: "Headphones" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:sWu4JS+CFP7oFmHC6Cp9+YzKlsQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:33:32 -0000 "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > I think that the thing to do is for Emacs to install private versions > of DLLs when it installs any at all, and if/when people complain about > "bloat", add some logic (maybe in the installer routine) to check to > see if there is an appropriate DLL already on the Windows DLL path. I agree. Assuming that the size of these things is comparable on Windows and Debian, the added size doesn't seem particularly daunting: [larsi@stories ~]$ ls -lh /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26.14.12 src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2.7.8 -rwxr-xr-x 3 larsi larsi 19M Jan 3 20:41 src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 654K Mar 20 2010 /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26.14.12 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1.4M Jun 4 2011 /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2.7.8 And the .elc files seem to take a further 38MB, if I wc correctly. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 06:57:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiPTW-0002q7-B8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:57:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33805) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPTQ-0002oE-8f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:57:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPTL-0005aE-9w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:57:40 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:56725) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPTL-0005Zw-1W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:57:35 -0500 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so5418720lag.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:57:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=m0c6viaZ0853fU7c3hRNo8/G1Gi0ru03UMetEUAmKHQ=; b=ItNGxXFrNRo93iIzitC4hpaZeHjMQW3enKAOO/nAPYzHyr3QA4SH/BDquLn3/T6qT5 iRsXVTeoyE639pqOKvHfU2UNiHLvUWP/IRZqoK/3jwKCSuY6c2FN153mPOo7HbljQnmo Vd7apSHCUdBvNNkF/sSSFT5FbqDVhIEbkbR30= Received: by 10.152.106.227 with SMTP id gx3mr22692135lab.45.1325678253151; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:57:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.124.44 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:57:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:57:11 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:57:44 -0000 Off topic: Lars Magne, why is it not possible to reach you at the mail address you are using here. Gmail gives me this: The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7720 [quimby.gnus.org. (10): No route to host] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 07:06:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiPc8-0005af-NG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:06:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54905) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPc0-0005YM-L7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:06:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPbw-0006xm-EM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:06:32 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:38374) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPbw-0006xK-8I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:06:28 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPbm-0002lz-Jo; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:06:18 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:57:11 +0100") Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:06:14 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEUqKjEFBQaLjpq5wtFN UV10c3k5jKpKAAACVUlEQVQ4jU2TzZKsIAyFgwN7mHL2XoT9FNE9Ytz3ILz/q9zgX7dVaulHzklC gGoRMYz4cYV2Q62VX9tBRpxXfg2jfYA8gEU6QbYXsNSAJ18SK7sx3xGjG9EGoq0QNcd6g33KOEjH wMF4aF4A54ru6wUQ6UjjkcJg0SUD0eiurb8jxvbhlt5ui9Q4erTjHcFM6C1W0npHj9naB8zmuyic F835fXgwENImnP/0+uFxgt5bnITpeH3GRwqlkXvA8DKqgfAGvLRVMB/gnZUNi6HGJ9NxTTn4C/iw RHUADZbB1d0Q3L9FJDykgHctj6dHQBeNOSMY4FNgQB/hlpLzu4me04xDacD1kp/1qsOPQUDhZmAY jG7gStevQZROrSz5OgGe6bo0w2RVCtYKaFb88wQqyImgWOsGSm8wFjXrAWArlZ/yA/g86Q2i/00+ mk+pzE233TAvybvYvYHlyaCsXuPfHjJ9fYA0YtQyqmV9dbBi2C8Q0o5RUq2yDmS+eLJvc9qxUvWZ 5hI54vWAuPNYl2knLIXnXowP4IMRoW7RQ+QyItZcIddmj7/cRVIbCEBbXdsPnuR+yzgBlLqWKHok Y4wmWEy79jlGm1YXRRf4U5j+Bhhj7dJAcW2AFv2ABUipIoVqgBVh+V5OIGnLDsxPMFpIwRE9GBA7 FkW0FsnzZrw0zaM/pELoS7c5qVPQPEoNaJZk4HRMewbNHls0V1aSPZyGlWbN82YU3AAYeC1TrjIu s/l5QN8iej6BPsbeG/lImVMqlVqU9pxuA627bTYHTbl6V3g/MPDP/1cl2JGpxyx8AAAAAElFTkSu QmCC X-Now-Playing: Propaganda's _A Secret Wish (1)_: "Duel" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiPbm-0002lz-Jo X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326283578.92305@gRrqV2EAAKSB6yntXxUhQg X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:06:38 -0000 Lennart Borgman writes: > Off topic: Lars Magne, why is it not possible to reach you at the mail > address you are using here. Gmail gives me this: > > The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn > more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7720 > [quimby.gnus.org. (10): No route to host] I get plenty of email at my larsi@gnus.org address. Perhaps it's a Gmail bug? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 07:27:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiPwJ-0000ec-NX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:27:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52576) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPwE-0000ch-Mw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:27:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPw9-0001aF-SQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:27:26 -0500 Received: from mx1.bahnhof.se ([213.80.101.11]:49679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiPw9-0001ZF-Ex for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:27:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (mf.bahnhof.se [213.80.101.20]) by mx1-reinject (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E23295636; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:27:18 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at bahnhof.se (MF1) Received: from mf1.bahnhof.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mf1.bahnhof.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tiqMPSktjjL; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:27:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from exodia.localdomain (h-235-102.a149.priv.bahnhof.se [85.24.235.102]) by mf1.bahnhof.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4758AEA879; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:27:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from chopper.vpn.verona.se (unknown [192.168.201.14]) by exodia.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF7F4E00E7; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:26:53 +0100 (CET) From: joakim@verona.se To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83fwfwra0t.fsf@gnu.org> <8739bv91dl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:26:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8739bv91dl.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:02:30 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-Received-From: 213.80.101.11 Cc: tzz@lifelogs.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:27:30 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:14 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote:=20 > > EZ> No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct > EZ> directory. It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to > EZ> select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we > EZ> could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An > EZ> entirely different issue. > > The addendum is "...and so GnuTLS is available to non-Emacs processes > too" which is something I did not consider carefully but your mention of > wget brought up. We don't want multiple versions of the GnuTLS DLL all > over the place, that could be worse for security than a single outdated > version. So the package.el install is not a good W32 solution to > deliver GnuTLS, after all. > > On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 20:51:28 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:=20 > > LMI> And since the (major) binary GNU/Linux distributions will be providi= ng > LMI> the gnutls libraries with Emacs, then we should, too? :-) > > We should find a way, yes. But we should be smart about it, and a > GnuTLS installer, separate from Emacs, would benefit far more users and > projects, and it would use the right APIs to deploy the DLL. > > On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:10:14 +0100 =D3scar Fuentes wrote= :=20 > > =D3F> The standard MS installers have a mechanism for detecting when a dl= l is > =D3F> in use and, if the result is positive, arrange things for updating = it on > =D3F> the next restart or login. A poor's man method for detecting when a= dll > =D3F> is in use is just trying to overwrite it (after you know that you h= ave > =D3F> write access to the file). > > Because of this, I think we (emacs-devel and gnutls-devel) should just > put together a W32 installer for GnuTLS. Obviously this would be > connected to the GnuTLS project but I think Nikos (whose name I've > misspelled as Nicos a few times) could use some help with such an > installer. Is there another GNU project that provides a W32 DLL > *self-updating* installer, so I can get them started with that project? > > I may end up owning that installer, we'll see what the GnuTLS developers > want. But it would let GnuTLS issue updates, remove a release > dependency between their project and Emacs, and remove the tedious > requirement of downloading a zip file and installing it manually. > > On the Emacs side on W32, if GnuTLS is not installed, we should tell the > user how to install it by pointing to the W32 installer (running it > automatically is probably too aggressive). The more I think about it, > the more appropriate this solution seems for everyone concerned. I haven't followed this thread too closely but I can offer advice on how to use the NSIS installer (http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Main_Page) if that is at all relevant (NSIS is free software and stuff) > > Ted > --=20 Joakim Verona From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 07:38:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiQ6U-0002bJ-Gv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:38:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54183) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQ6O-0002aq-Sd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:38:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQ6K-0003UL-5J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:37:56 -0500 Received: from randomsample.de ([83.169.19.17]:47238) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQ6J-0003Sq-LF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:37:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=randomsample.de; s=a; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=3VkcmLCwkUfQadDufaRJq36rp3XjFL3ekVkr59AqAx4=; b=FarmuHe3XIXm0Q7VzuLEjZM9N6HEpinNsC8i7EDAG3JLLkV2QLqEZjQ23o1wUNxwtjFbXJ9CFp+3MJ1laZDiFg3JuU5cwy7q3IhmMCDQ6rmEbpaSz3wnxc/IL+POfwdU; Received: from ibookg4-c2.pc.gwdg.de ([134.76.4.219]) by randomsample.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQ6B-0006Gx-V6; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:37:44 +0100 From: David Engster To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:06:14 +0100") References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Lennart Borgman , emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:37:37 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 83.169.19.17 Cc: Lennart Borgman , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:38:00 -0000 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > Lennart Borgman writes: > >> Off topic: Lars Magne, why is it not possible to reach you at the mail >> address you are using here. Gmail gives me this: >> >> The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn >> more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7720 >> [quimby.gnus.org. (10): No route to host] > > I get plenty of email at my larsi@gnus.org address. Perhaps it's a > Gmail bug? Lennart, when did you send the mail? quimby.gnus.org was down for several days after christmas. -David From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 07:44:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiQCY-0003xA-PY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:44:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39860) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQCV-0003x3-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:44:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQCU-0004Zr-FH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:44:15 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:34336) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiQCU-0004Zk-9C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:44:14 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so14437886dak.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:44:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rcn+/mhQKao/DM+uouZaAuiCqQT9+WpbWT6hlucqADw=; b=Fa1j3j8QSClGNQcFOZPsMwyK6A3JzjE2fgd+ywAWOX8gYNki1oA78lg7UYJnXEK8if +RH2t+qakjrVZw+yvHY6rWIkPJoYa6hCTTD85kLwxEl6xt5LgyYeH39VcmdEBIxnQNC9 7dTBJ45wDDLaje66KqA0ORZjNcVsoyVTYysxs= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr117814934pbw.23.1325681053161; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:44:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 04:43:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87obuj9439.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ehvgps3x.fsf@gnu.org> <87k45840aq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87obuj9439.fsf@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:43:32 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What's in a feature? To: Bastien Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:44:16 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:03, Bastien wrote: > My suggestion is just to distinguish between important miracles > (like resurrection) and unintrusive ones (like giving bread to the > fishermen). OTOH, resurrection is just fixing some damage, while giving bread to the fishermen implies creation of matter out of nothing. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 08:58:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiRLt-0006CB-B5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:58:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56021) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRLo-0006C1-9h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:58:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRLi-0006sy-Cq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:57:56 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:47466) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRLi-0006su-BL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:57:50 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRLg-0001lF-NX; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:57:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:57:48 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:58:00 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:07 +0900 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > For this reason, I think we should give Emacs users an option to put > > the downloaded DLL in some directory that is not Emacs-specific, so > > that other programs could use it. > > Well, as you know I'm not a Windows person, but my understanding is > that one reason that DLL hell is called "DLL hell" An aside: the "DLL hell"s flames are much lower now than they used to be, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-by-side_assembly FWIW, I didn't have a single problem for years on my XP boxes. YMMV, of course. > is that programs install their own versions of DLLs *in the system > directories* that for one reason or another are inappropriate for > other programs. So in fact you're asking a lot of knowledge on the > user's part to get this right. Only as an option, which I expect to be used by someone who really knows what they are doing. By default, we should install into the directory of emacs.exe. (Btw, it doesn't have to be a system directory to be useful to other programs. A DLL that is not a standard component on Windows can be put in some directory on PATH that was created and is maintained by the user. That's what I do, FWIW.) > I think that the thing to do is for Emacs to install private versions > of DLLs when it installs any at all By default, certainly. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 09:15:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiRcR-0004Nf-Id for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:15:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41907) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRcG-00044Y-4F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:15:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRc9-00022v-KO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:14:56 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39464) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRc8-00022i-R3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:14:49 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRc4-0006pY-7T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:14:44 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:14:44 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:14:44 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:14:28 +0100 Lines: 88 Message-ID: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:QD6Ufq7A3DdevcIDXth03iVFw0c= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:15:05 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" >> Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:07 +0900 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > For this reason, I think we should give Emacs users an option to put >> > the downloaded DLL in some directory that is not Emacs-specific, so >> > that other programs could use it. >> >> Well, as you know I'm not a Windows person, but my understanding is >> that one reason that DLL hell is called "DLL hell" > > An aside: the "DLL hell"s flames are much lower now than they used to > be, see > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-by-side_assembly That requires an installer that follows MS guidelines. It's not as easy as unzipping a file on a directory. On the topic of how hard is to load a dll from an arbitrary location, that is what I found on the Emacs sources: /* The argument LIBRARIES is an alist that associates a symbol LIBRARY_ID, identifying an external DLL library known to Emacs, to a list of filenames under which the library is usually found. In most cases, the argument passed as LIBRARIES is the variable `dynamic-library-alist', which is initialized to a list of common library names. If the function loads the library successfully, it returns the handle of the DLL, and records the filename in the property :loaded-from of LIBRARY_ID; it returns NULL if the library could not be found, or when it was already loaded (because the handle is not recorded anywhere, and so is lost after use). It would be trivial to save the handle too in :loaded-from, but currently there's no use case for it. */ HMODULE w32_delayed_load (Lisp_Object libraries, Lisp_Object library_id) { HMODULE library_dll = NULL; CHECK_SYMBOL (library_id); if (CONSP (libraries) && NILP (Fassq (library_id, Vlibrary_cache))) { Lisp_Object found = Qnil; Lisp_Object dlls = Fassq (library_id, libraries); if (CONSP (dlls)) for (dlls = XCDR (dlls); CONSP (dlls); dlls = XCDR (dlls)) { CHECK_STRING_CAR (dlls); if ((library_dll = LoadLibrary (SDATA (XCAR (dlls))))) { found = XCAR (dlls); break; } } Fput (library_id, QCloaded_from, found); } return library_dll; } I think that Emacs is right now capable of loading a dll from an arbitrary place. Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names). In any case, creating a new function that loads a .dll by name seems quite straightforward, once we have seem how w32_delayed_load is implemented. > FWIW, I didn't have a single problem for years on my XP boxes. YMMV, > of course. On the last 5 years I the only occurrences of the dll hell I had were related to Free software which uses naive installers. Cygwin, MSYS and GnuWin32 does not get along very well, and even updating some of their component may create havoc due to incompatibilities of the new dlls with some of the old tools. The safe method is to update the whole lot. Installing a dll intended to be used by Emacs on a shared place is asking for trouble. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 09:22:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiRjq-0007AK-Ui for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:22:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54166) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRjk-00078M-17 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:22:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRje-0003Jh-4P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:22:40 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38820) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRjd-0003JZ-Pb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:22:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiRja-0002IK-7W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:30 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:30 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:18 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <87boqjsg2t.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83fwfwra0t.fsf@gnu.org> <8739bv91dl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:OorNbyJn7qC8VVH2hLGNyDpfaeQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:22:45 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:21:14 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > EZ> No, it is _not_ hard for the user to put the DLL in the correct > EZ> directory. It is hard for _us_, the programmers of package.el, to > EZ> select a fixed directory that would work for all users, so that we > EZ> could hardcode its absolute file name in the Emacs sources. An > EZ> entirely different issue. > > The addendum is "...and so GnuTLS is available to non-Emacs processes > too" which is something I did not consider carefully but your mention of > wget brought up. We don't want multiple versions of the GnuTLS DLL all > over the place, that could be worse for security than a single outdated > version. So the package.el install is not a good W32 solution to > deliver GnuTLS, after all. You are very wrong. For starters, MS Windows is not like most GNU/Linux distribution that use a system for keeping all installed software in sync. The wget example is a red herring. Sharing the gnutls dll is so wrong at some many levels that I wont start discussing it. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 10:05:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiSPf-0002zg-70 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:05:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54616) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSPY-0002ya-N1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:05:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSPX-00022n-6d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:05:52 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:49779) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSPX-00022f-0V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:05:51 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so14560114dak.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NlSvOHlzknDarCcEUcrE2Y601qFEwliivTZ1hWijkW0=; b=bXpUMEVjXOUffyrDU0MOa0SJCK0cJVfPWbiVayb7rtm1qA/VdXdfFjEEqhI0x2ILMa +XKiuH77nyFNi+/pr20hThkdM/mCA3hVj/KJpmd4wz+RbpPaEKsrE4KJc3VbFaIe2iNe ASWhidMvXhyNIqvuXu5DzO251FMxExgecKNEs= Received: by 10.68.74.233 with SMTP id x9mr114166488pbv.74.1325689550239; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 07:05:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:05:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:05:56 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 15:14, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > On the topic of how hard is to load a dll from an arbitrary location, > that is what I found on the Emacs sources: I think Eli's already aware of that function. > I think that Emacs is right now capable of loading a dll from an > arbitrary place. Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls > . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names). We know that. Nobody discusses that you can use a full pathname to load a DLL from an arbitrary place. Only the convenience of handling the installation of DLLs in arbitrary places. (Well, not only; we're mainly discussing the convenience of turning Emacs into a distribution point for arbitrary Windows binaries from other projects; but I digress.) > In > any case, creating a new function that loads a .dll by name seems quite > straightforward, once we have seem how w32_delayed_load is implemented. What do you mean? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 10:16:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiSa7-0005yp-QX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:16:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44889) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSa5-0005yR-9e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:16:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSZz-0003gi-C7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:16:45 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:59539) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSZz-0003gV-7D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:16:39 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so14569938dak.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:16:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TGr/S9QlxQt2t9uOR9HGceiYlfPI7w8EayHBJ/OKXx0=; b=dRCsdX6SAX9h3i0Q8eRhW7m+NzS/D41qoKFcLP8lLtaa70yia9eK4FqfMvsaIFJHH2 qIHjWru+cdDQEcDfMJDtKwornQpIPEzBKe4UqIlpKlJ3QZN00EhHZo4DTG4MLIkebMG/ 8HDG0tU0VAb+L0hzm6Vl+kQj9rqqLfH4DVxR4= Received: by 10.68.74.233 with SMTP id x9mr114232735pbv.74.1325690198295; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:16:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:15:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:16:46 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 15:14, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > On the topic of how hard is to load a dll from an arbitrary location, > that is what I found on the Emacs sources: And BTW, I prefer the patched version from bug#10424, which records the full pathname too, and which I'll commit after 24.1 (at least this change, the one in misc.el could be circumvented with better customizability of tabulated-list-mode). > /* The argument LIBRARIES is an alist that associates a symbol > =C2=A0 LIBRARY_ID, identifying an external DLL library known to Emacs, to > =C2=A0 a list of filenames under which the library is usually found. =C2= =A0In > =C2=A0 most cases, the argument passed as LIBRARIES is the variable > =C2=A0 `dynamic-library-alist', which is initialized to a list of common > =C2=A0 library names. =C2=A0If the function loads the library successfull= y, it > =C2=A0 returns the handle of the DLL, and records the filename in the > =C2=A0 property :loaded-from of LIBRARY_ID; it returns NULL if the librar= y > =C2=A0 could not be found, or when it was already loaded (because the > =C2=A0 handle is not recorded anywhere, and so is lost after use). =C2=A0= It > =C2=A0 would be trivial to save the handle too in :loaded-from, but > =C2=A0 currently there's no use case for it. =C2=A0*/ > HMODULE > w32_delayed_load (Lisp_Object libraries, Lisp_Object library_id) > { > =C2=A0HMODULE library_dll =3D NULL; > > =C2=A0CHECK_SYMBOL (library_id); > > =C2=A0if (CONSP (libraries) && NILP (Fassq (library_id, Vlibrary_cache))) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0{ > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lisp_Object found =3D Qnil; > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lisp_Object dlls =3D Fassq (library_id, libraries); > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if (CONSP (dlls)) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for (dlls =3D XCDR (dlls); CONSP (dlls); dlls = =3D XCDR (dlls)) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0{ > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CHECK_STRING_CAR (dlls); > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if ((library_dll =3D LoadLibrary= (SDATA (XCAR (dlls))))) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0{ - =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0found =3D XCAR (dl= ls); + char name[MAX_PATH]; + DWORD len; + + len =3D GetModuleFileNameA (library_dll, name, sizeof (nam= e)); + found =3D Fcons (XCAR (dlls), + (len > 0) + /* Possibly truncated */ + ? make_specified_string (name, -1, len, 1) + : Qnil); > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0break; > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0} > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0} > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fput (library_id, QCloaded_from, found); > =C2=A0 =C2=A0} > > =C2=A0return library_dll; > } =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 10:42:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiSz9-0007HQ-9f for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:42:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39677) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSz2-0007Fs-IN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:42:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSyy-0007bK-5R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:42:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:52783) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSyv-0007ay-Ua for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:42:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiSyu-0007f9-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:24 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:24 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:11 +0100 Lines: 49 Message-ID: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:3HsjpmpOJXxM7zuaW9jkvXAqmoI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:42:38 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 15:14, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> On the topic of how hard is to load a dll from an arbitrary location, >> that is what I found on the Emacs sources: > > I think Eli's already aware of that function. He's repeating that loading a dll with a pathname would require changes at the C level. >> I think that Emacs is right now capable of loading a dll from an >> arbitrary place. Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls >> . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names). > > We know that. Nobody discusses that you can use a full pathname to > load a DLL from an arbitrary place. Only the convenience of handling > the installation of DLLs in arbitrary places. (Well, not only; we're > mainly discussing the convenience of turning Emacs into a distribution > point for arbitrary Windows binaries from other projects; but I > digress.) I don't know how a key component for an Emacs feature can be deemed as "arbitrary". As far as I'm concerned, there are two sane options here: suppose that the user is a geek, advertise GnuTLS support citing the dll requirement finishing with "now that's your problem". The other approach is to do the job from Emacs, do it well, and automatically download and upgrade the dll from Elpa. Related to this, I'm convinced that Emacs packages too much on the standard distribution. Things like org-mode, Gnus, Semantic... would be better on Elpa. That would free resources from the Emacs developers (less packaging, less maintenance, less administratrivia...), free resources from the package developers (no merging back and forth) and, finally, would provide the users updated packages. Oh, and would diminish the pressure for releasing new Emacs versions. >> In >> any case, creating a new function that loads a .dll by name seems quite >> straightforward, once we have seem how w32_delayed_load is implemented. > > What do you mean? Just that if w32_delayed_load does not fit the bill, writing the required function by tweaking w32_delayed_load is so easy that someone like me who doesn't know the Emacs C dialect can do the job. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 10:54:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiTAW-0001vf-9P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:54:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59762) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTAQ-0001vX-AE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:54:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTAK-0001Pj-Jq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:54:18 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:29150) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTAK-0001Pc-CN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:54:12 -0500 Received: from int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.22]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q04Fs9NJ031013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:54:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (vpn1-6-1.sin2.redhat.com [10.67.6.1]) by int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q04Fs60t026145; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:54:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:54:05 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20120105.005405.2031224463015652530.yamato@redhat.com> To: monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2] Merge subword-mode and capitalized-words-mode From: Masatake YAMATO In-Reply-To: References: <7a291233e0f23e4e7a6cdeb1beb63ad5b2893b2a.1325210510.git.dancol@dancol.org> Organization: Red Hat Japan, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.22 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 209.132.183.28 Cc: dancol@dancol.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:54:22 -0000 >> +;;;###autoload >> +(define-obsolete-function-alias >> + 'capitalized-words-mode 'subword-mode "24.1") > > Since 24.1 is already in feature freeze, these patches can't make it for > 24.1. You could install your patches on the `pending' branch, but > better would be to wait for the trunk to be re-opened for non-bugfix > commits (hopefully within a couple months). Putting it to the bug tracker is another option, isn't it? Masatake > > Stefan > From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 11:30:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiTj6-0003au-DD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:30:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56671) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTiz-0003Xs-JI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:30:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTiy-0007Kq-BE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:30:01 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44537) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTiy-0007Ke-1C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:30:00 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiTiw-0006c3-Fw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:29:58 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:29:58 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:29:58 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:29:44 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 22 Message-ID: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:a7ukteBA2A6BIjnce87YejgUJ0w= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:30:07 -0000 On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:11 +0100 scar Fuentes wrote: F> As far as I'm concerned, there are two sane options here: suppose that F> the user is a geek, advertise GnuTLS support citing the dll requirement F> finishing with "now that's your problem". The other approach is to do F> the job from Emacs, do it well, and automatically download and upgrade F> the dll from Elpa. If those are the only two options, obviously the second one is better. On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:18 +0100 scar Fuentes wrote: F> Sharing the gnutls dll is so wrong at some many levels that I wont F> start discussing it. I am puzzled by this. Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? If you and Eli and other W32 experts say a standalone self-updating installer that drops a shared GnuTLS DLL in a common area is a bad idea, I won't argue. But you have to at least explain your reasoning. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 12:01:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiUDg-0002IB-QV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:01:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35700) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiUDZ-000212-NB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:01:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiUDT-00048g-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:01:37 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:50816) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiUDT-00048P-Ei for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:01:31 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so14663380dak.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:01:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aLZH3TkUPdHZg8PNH9IMPQKJAX1N3XYvjnyO1WHLLeI=; b=q4HYw5hjd5qDZPaoIChtqo8h7DuPUt5TlC0U/Y3y6CEL8qTUao621a1T8POapHyV66 tgCvbVFrnvLwzLVBHAsYmICu10mSIqTY+e4D6hxOujnWyJWbE2/dFkNTOWoprMeUAksU deO5RoWYm1TzM4Zz9KFURrLFaP2dP6+vARGY4= Received: by 10.68.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr141280116pbv.57.1325696490313; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:01:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:00:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:00:49 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:01:42 -0000 2012/1/4 Ted Zlatanov : > I am puzzled by this. =C2=A0Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? > > If you and Eli and other W32 experts say a standalone self-updating > installer that drops a shared GnuTLS DLL in a common area is a bad idea, I think is a good idea. Fortunately, we don't have to discuss it, because =C3=93scar "won't start discussing it" ;-) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 12:53:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiV1U-0006Hk-6R for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:53:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiV1R-00065I-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:53:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiV1Q-0004Eg-4B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:53:08 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:63284) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiV1P-0004Ec-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:53:08 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so36312340iac.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MU/t/JW7DQ4e22MjK+Yvk+25yrCTK3kM8yHxfuVz+0w=; b=bcMMe0K/bjMq7Q7ySUD2qfgm7En6VN/aI+cmDJs93Nw5rHuj0uv+MLKywx6SHQCPcw nADKYF038hWXzkGnRAYG5YDRCeB0YRvV0WekoeDC0c0SEOu7VoHBtefvX8s7K0HCsjxg egnHkZeOFO1Y6aa+ZxUFME4XWYQQdJeU2FukM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr59711182icw.36.1325699586711; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 09:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:53:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:53:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: nsterm.m warnings From: Carsten Mattner To: Emacs developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:53:09 -0000 I think at least one of the following or ideally both should be fixed. nsterm.m: In function =91-[EmacsView conversationIdentifier]=92: nsterm.m:5053: warning: conflicting types for =91-(long int)conversationIdentifier=92 /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Headers/NSInputManager.h:25: warning: previous declaration of =91-(NSInteger)conversationIdentifier=92 From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:04:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVBz-0002fO-1O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:04:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56877) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVBw-0002Xc-7A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:04:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVBp-0005xp-Je for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:04:00 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:35480) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVBp-0005xX-BY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:03:53 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00I00CLA6H00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:03:51 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA00GTNCUAUVM0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:03:48 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:03:00 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87boqjsg2t.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83sjjvpcq3.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <83ehvjs8t5.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqf3bcom.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83boqns68o.fsf@gnu.org> <87liprazr1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83wr9bqez3.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tr9dwv.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k45alwgb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwfyltm1.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8762gt9blm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83fwfwra0t.fsf@gnu.org> <8739bv91dl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqjsg2t.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:04:01 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:22:18 +0100 >=20 > > The addendum is "...and so GnuTLS is available to non-Emacs proce= sses > > too" which is something I did not consider carefully but your men= tion of > > wget brought up. We don't want multiple versions of the GnuTLS D= LL all > > over the place, that could be worse for security than a single ou= tdated > > version. So the package.el install is not a good W32 solution to > > deliver GnuTLS, after all. >=20 > You are very wrong. For starters, MS Windows is not like most GNU/L= inux > distribution that use a system for keeping all installed software i= n > sync. The wget example is a red herring. Sharing the gnutls dll is = so > wrong at some many levels that I wont start discussing it. FUD From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:10:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVHu-0004zs-EO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:10:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42532) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVHr-0004xl-OG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:10:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVHq-0007AC-Bw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:10:07 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:47305) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVHq-00078s-5L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:10:06 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00200D01Y600@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:09:56 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA0021FD4JXB20@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:09:56 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:09:08 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83r4zfpcfv.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:10:09 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:14:28 +0100 >=20 > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-by-side_assembly >=20 > That requires an installer that follows MS guidelines. And granted, the DLLs that were causing the hell come with an installer. > It's not as easy as unzipping a file on a directory. Nobody suggested that; it was an aside. > I think that Emacs is right now capable of loading a dll from an > arbitrary place. With great care, yes. dynamic-library-alist is carefully hand-crafte= d to DTRT with several DLLs of different versions on the same machine. Just pushing arbitrary file name there is not the best idea. > Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls > . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names). Putting DLLs in arbitrary places is not TRT. We should put it in the same directory where emacs.exe lives, and then there's no need to do anything with dynamic-library-alist. > Installing a dll intended to be used by Emacs on a shared place is > asking for trouble. Please give me the credit that when I do that I know what I'm doing. I have been doing that for years with no problems at all. I'm sure others have succeeded in learning a few simple rules of how to do thi= s safely. That's why an _option_ to do it available to knowledgeable users would be a bonus. The default place should be where emacs.exe lives. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:11:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVJb-0005QV-U1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:11:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43145) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVJa-0005QP-7P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:11:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVJZ-0007Rf-Fa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:11:54 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54151) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVJZ-0007RF-8r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:11:53 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00K00D1TN000@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:11:12 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA00G1OD6MIOD1@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:11:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:10:23 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83pqezpcds.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:11:55 -0000 > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:42:11 +0100 >=20 > Juanma Barranquero writes: >=20 > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 15:14, =C3=93scar Fuentes = wrote: > > > >> On the topic of how hard is to load a dll from an arbitrary loca= tion, > >> that is what I found on the Emacs sources: > > > > I think Eli's already aware of that function. >=20 > He's repeating that loading a dll with a pathname would require cha= nges > at the C level. And I still submit that is so. > Just that if w32_delayed_load does not fit the bill, writing the > required function by tweaking w32_delayed_load is so easy that some= one > like me who doesn't know the Emacs C dialect can do the job. You are welcome to do that and present a complete solution for the issue at hand. Maybe then this thread will become anything but hand-waving. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:20:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVRh-0007xo-Mb for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:20:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41170) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVRc-0007xY-Er for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:20:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVRX-0000Ws-88 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:20:12 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:48168) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVRW-0000VM-SI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:20:07 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00200DJLZ200@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:20:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA002HADLFOSA0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:20:04 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:19:15 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Message-id: <83obujpbz0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87boqmlrma.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:20:16 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:33:11 +0100 > > "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > > > I think that the thing to do is for Emacs to install private versions > > of DLLs when it installs any at all, and if/when people complain about > > "bloat", add some logic (maybe in the installer routine) to check to > > see if there is an appropriate DLL already on the Windows DLL path. > > I agree. Assuming that the size of these things is comparable on > Windows and Debian, the added size doesn't seem particularly daunting: > > [larsi@stories ~]$ ls -lh /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26.14.12 src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2.7.8 > -rwxr-xr-x 3 larsi larsi 19M Jan 3 20:41 src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 654K Mar 20 2010 /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26.14.12 > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1.4M Jun 4 2011 /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2.7.8 You missed few dependencies, but yes, the sizes are comparable: -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 73K 2012-01-02 19:44 libp11-kit-0.dll -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 148K 2012-01-02 19:44 libnettle-4-3.dll -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 306K 2012-01-02 19:44 libhogweed-2-1.dll -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 937K 2012-01-02 19:44 libgnutls-28.dll -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 417K 2012-01-02 19:44 libgmp-10.dll -rw-rw-rw- 1 Zaretzkii None 966K 2011-06-19 21:52 libxml2.dll From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:43:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVnv-000544-Bx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:43:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42468) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVnq-0004z1-0i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:43:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVnl-00046p-K9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:43:09 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:51208) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVnl-00046Y-6C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:43:05 -0500 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so5580081lag.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:43:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9Op3YIj9EzzUQEB5aJx8+K5LZYlk69yRDStBZsfkq9c=; b=MSSpReCBGE2K3XSICTsKcgcUqaRuW070CbtC+RkmERaLX3RlgbxQwy5waVbCSH5qZc t2nBcvR6ocUBrUCrWc2fhPzZyEP64bcz3tfaGLhECzVi66f4m4iwtqPck7KJMhPo74CW JN4Enzjto7OUJq+QMl6suKuJpw07Ow45xQbuU= Received: by 10.112.98.37 with SMTP id ef5mr143716lbb.73.1325702583334; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:43:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.124.44 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:42:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:42:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Lennart Borgman , emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:43:13 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 13:37, David Engster wrote: > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: >> Lennart Borgman writes: >> >>> Off topic: Lars Magne, why is it not possible to reach you at the mail >>> address you are using here. Gmail gives me this: >>> >>> The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn >>> more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=3D7720 >>> [quimby.gnus.org. (10): No route to host] >> >> I get plenty of email at my larsi@gnus.org address. =C2=A0Perhaps it's a >> Gmail bug? > > Lennart, when did you send the mail? quimby.gnus.org was down for > several days after christmas. I sent it on 2011-12-28. So maybe that was the reason then. I will try again and see. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 13:48:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiVsz-0005kk-G9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42537) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVsw-0005ke-WF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVsv-0004vP-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:26 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57076) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVsv-0004vB-H6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:25 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiVss-0006rx-TA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:48:22 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:48:22 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:48:22 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:05 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 26 Message-ID: <87sjjv5moq.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1q29rN5/uLetcvtaE6DUDiCGR/M= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:48:27 -0000 On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:00:49 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/4 Ted Zlatanov : >> I am puzzled by this. Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? >> >> If you and Eli and other W32 experts say a standalone self-updating >> installer that drops a shared GnuTLS DLL in a common area is a bad idea, JB> I think is a good idea. Fortunately, we don't have to discuss it, JB> because scar "won't start discussing it" ;-) I'd like to discuss it with anyone willing. Joakim offered to help with the installer and I can probably follow a build recipe to make the DLLs, so practically it seems like we could do this. I just want to make sure I don't find out in a few days or weeks that the installer approach is flawed for some obscure W32 reason, which scar sort of implied. On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:10:23 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: EZ> Maybe then this thread will become anything but hand-waving. I think it makes sense to discuss approaches--I had not even thought of the GnuTLS installer approach until we had this conversation. Rushing into development can be fun, but can also hide good ideas. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 14:22:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiWPZ-0004si-VZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:22:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36747) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWPW-0004sP-GX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:22:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWPS-0002FZ-Ad for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:22:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48812) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWPS-0002FQ-1s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:22:02 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWPR-0006AC-8n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:22:01 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:22:01 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:22:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:49 +0100 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:NIUvp6g0yiDSdIMd3Hml5Vsms/k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:22:07 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > ÓF> Sharing the gnutls dll is so wrong at some many levels that I wont > ÓF> start discussing it. > > I am puzzled by this. Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? This is a common scenario on MS Windows: multiple providers of binary packages, multiple installers with different install policies even for the same installer, lots of directories on PATH (each application lives on its own directory and often wants to be listed on PATH), varying policies about where a non-privileged user is allowed to put binaries, multiple incompatible binary macropackages that provides the same executables and libraries with the same names (Cygwin, MSYS, GnuWin32 and what-not), a lack of culture of system administration, a growing tendency to rely on self-updating packages... and the list goes on. If a user is informed about the need to fix GnuTLS (through the local newspaper, I guess) his first reaction would be "GnuWhat? Is it on my machine?" Next, as every desktop computer user would do, he performs a full HD file search for the library ("and BTW, how is it named, exactly?") After locating the instance (or multiple instances) he needs to figure out the correct procedure to update it ("Was this installed along something else? Has this be put here by an installer of some sort? Does that installer offer an update method? What depends on this dll? What's the installed version, and what's the compatible update? Is it available somewhere? If I use this newer version which I found with a Google search, can something break apart?") Sure, for us it all looks very easy, but I suffered DLL hell a few times and it is very frustrating. Can't imagine how can it be for a novice or a less computer-savvy user. For a Windows binary package to be robust, it must be as self-contained as possible. Quality-wise, one of the best decisions I ever made was to distribute the C/C++ MS runtime dlls along with the rest of my binaries, no matter they are already installed on virtually all MS Windows machines. Certain long-standing, very nasty bugs simply went away. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 14:39:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiWga-00089S-Ca for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60853) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgY-00088s-Og for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgX-0004Xk-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:42 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgW-0004XZ-WE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:41 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgV-0005pp-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:39 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:39 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:27 +0100 Lines: 51 Message-ID: <87y5tnqmts.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83r4zfpcfv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:0eFjTFnHKJdJ4JJPRvvhKABoeVc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:39:43 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: [snip] >> Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls >> . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names). > > Putting DLLs in arbitrary places is not TRT. Nobody is suggesting an *arbitrary* place. Where ELPA puts its files is anything but arbitrary. > We should put it in the > same directory where emacs.exe lives, and then there's no need to do > anything with dynamic-library-alist. Depending on how Emacs was installed, that would require elevated privileges, something ELPA can not ask for, AFAIK. Please keep in mind that we (or at least Ted and I) are discussing the feasibility of using ELPA for providing and updating the required dll for Emacs STARTTLS capability to work on Windows. >> Installing a dll intended to be used by Emacs on a shared place is >> asking for trouble. > > Please give me the credit that when I do that I know what I'm doing. > I have been doing that for years with no problems at all. Yes, putting the dll along the emacs executable on the same directory works, that's what I do with my own software. However, my applications require a privileged user to upgrade or install new components (unless the user is Administrator on a pre MS Windows Vista machine, something that is as common as malware targeting those same users). > I'm sure > others have succeeded in learning a few simple rules of how to do this > safely. That's why an _option_ to do it available to knowledgeable > users would be a bonus. The default place should be where emacs.exe > lives. Precisely, knowledgeable users would have no problem with putting GnuTLS along with emacs.exe. A bit annoying, yes. Not very admin-friendly, too. The non-knowledgeable users would have a problem, because once they configure Emacs to send mail, they will receive an error message. Hopefully the message will include detailed, up-to-date instructions on how to obtain and install the dll, but it would be much better if Emacs asked: "for this operation Emacs needs to download and install a library from the Emacs code repository. Do you want to proceed?" and then everything goes on smoothly. In the general case, that dll can't be installed by ELPA along emacs.exe, for the reasons already explained. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 14:39:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiWge-0008PH-RV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60874) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgb-0008Cn-7A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgZ-0004Y4-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:45 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:55582) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgZ-0004XO-RA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:39:43 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWgM-0001oZ-Nw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:30 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-Reply-To: <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 06:05:38 -0500") Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:27 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAMFBMVEUnISOsoKXcZ6mXgYz+ /v6ZcofcZqjeydR3WGisao/fZaoTDg9WRk0+NDi9YZSwlKOQj4lWAAACWElEQVQ4jc2UMWvcMBTH VUrAYAsqbrm5QwKZcogDQ5It0A9gDo4m8w0dy5GDTBfMwWtP7p5+gAyZtBQCsuBCKIhGAsERMNha bmqXQNcureQ2bVKSsdD/YMT7+b3/k58stPeI0NHZg9pDm/8v+PzmBE7g3cbR643J5C64+al/Zv79 IW168JV2KO0QQnvkj755QEjaXJK/5ME6If1Y5A8C2Bbo+E6hTgrvx22pqRAf7oYBXo59RifbNyi5 zUgbAMYC6KV+sSxuwY7wCdqXWr9gSpu1HR/rBriNB0OrPDg8TuEK+PSYdIsnnTzfSphGLciHcFXF 5oI845fdp0YLXQF768Gu1gscIwUak+X1LhUCLfUnDwpXWpxwqUvIaa4IFvElC8BqZy2Ok0UCqgtq WgoOxrd76PIhi2NxPpUfHTSqiH33KoAZpQdCiMaqApUusqhyAME8TvQOF1w1B07iesEThvMiACRQ zWPpANdl09T8XEepDeb73AlZl6LBVw7XNZbLqogD4KXjuJbFwtk+lnNbRlaIAHA0Lw0q2fVWrRru EJc4bgHM5muFQ0b5l7W2UoLmLpgDzCPmTKyNFYrZWlTaRAE44xImffsMiQhgKrVXKGVQhQAZnhg/ O2Dh4XC7DwxWwQKVPjLrD0BRj8MnkT5aaREmOsiyFHJ/GHQA4OeRIIsGkGUZTYGGUxJKMQVzjtB1 f5ZRSnPaGQCYFmhdC2xzGjSkhPYBktbcKc0a3YKc9vwJ/+Xx5eZWq5vV6vn6KixfeTAajc5Gp2en 93+cMXoxuafx79vnsWvpBwPyQ/fzOFMwAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Various's _Disco Discharge: Pink Pounders (1)_: "Yvonne Kay - I've Got The Music In Me (Original 12" energy mix)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiWgM-0001oZ-Nw X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326310771.04656@q0DwAw7PSUG4TDBQKiwIZA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:39:46 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > It can work, with a lot of fiddling, but is unreliable and causes many > issues that are hard to replicate, timeouts especially. I don't know of > anyone happily using it on W32 and think disabling it on W32 is a good > choice. If it can work, isn't there a way to make it work reliably? Where does it fail, usually? But if this is the case, I can add a test like (memq system-type '(windows-nt ms-dos)) to `starttls-available-p'... Opinions? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 14:45:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiWlt-00028a-MB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:45:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58799) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWlq-00028Q-Fk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:45:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWlo-0005kM-W7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:45:10 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36052) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWlo-0005jt-Qq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:45:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWlm-0008Rc-0B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:45:06 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:45:05 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:45:05 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:42:32 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <87ty4bqmon.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83pqezpcds.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zkye4O6xesyoZoi07EkFEBEXrI0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:45:11 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> He's repeating that loading a dll with a pathname would require changes >> at the C level. > > And I still submit that is so. > >> Just that if w32_delayed_load does not fit the bill, writing the >> required function by tweaking w32_delayed_load is so easy that someone >> like me who doesn't know the Emacs C dialect can do the job. > > You are welcome to do that and present a complete solution for the > issue at hand. Maybe then this thread will become anything but > hand-waving. So w32_delayed_load plus dynamic-library-alist is not enough to load a dll from a precise directory? What remains to be solved? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 14:57:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiWy3-00087Q-FQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:57:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35448) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWy0-000877-Ve for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:57:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWxz-0007pp-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:57:44 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:46896) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWxz-0007oq-2J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:57:43 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E8397DB for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:57:37 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 21144 invoked by uid 89); 4 Jan 2012 19:56:35 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 4 Jan 2012 19:56:35 -0000 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D20D7FA058; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:57:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: nsterm.m warnings Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:57:40 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <327FD938-2CED-4F59-8836-065EA3B97AE7@swipnet.se> References: To: Carsten Mattner X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:57:45 -0000 4 jan 2012 kl. 18:53 skrev Carsten Mattner: > I think at least one of the following or ideally both should be fixed. >=20 > nsterm.m: In function =91-[EmacsView conversationIdentifier]=92: > nsterm.m:5053: warning: conflicting types for =91-(long > int)conversationIdentifier=92 > = /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Headers/NSInputManager.h:25: > warning: previous declaration of =91-(NSInteger)conversationIdentifier=92= What do you mean by "both"? This is only one warning. It has no practical importance, and only occurs if you build a 32-bit = executable, which is rare on OSX. Jan D. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 15:02:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiX2u-0003fU-8E for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:02:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59205) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWmk-0004DZ-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:46:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWmi-0005xX-Od for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:46:06 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:49437) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiWmi-0005xG-Fy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:46:04 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so12724713pbd.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:46:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DixVFpz6f1IeDqjQGZtJ3/4BFyDuxyvKVQj95uHS248=; b=mTCUbNhdy5CwtmPpESHnryukLm3G4OCshjFpDdvtEtpRJ6C9FANKBSwCx2d41lp2RX lh4cf0xsa9KRVxWUd0yn/qrTsYXKJXrfXD/CI9LSl5wLNBZeaCN8lAWI1pt5z13Y47Q0 XgeB3uQmPsOC/9jj0bXx0Al6+z0mBm67AFZH8= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr120379537pbw.23.1325706363312; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:46:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:45:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:45:22 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:02:45 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 20:21, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > For a Windows binary package to be robust, it must be as self-contained > as possible. Quality-wise, one of the best decisions I ever made was to > distribute the C/C++ MS runtime dlls along with the rest of my binaries, > no matter they are already installed on virtually all MS Windows > machines. Certain long-standing, very nasty bugs simply went away. Assuming you're right, that seems like a wonderful side project. Why not start a project to build a prepackaged Emacs binary installer for Windows? Aside from installing DLLs, it could set up other things (after asking the user, of course), like CUA mode, and other binaries, like a better ftp than the standard one. I do really believe that a user-friendly installer for Windows is a good idea. I strongly *don't* believe the Emacs project should bear the load of it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 15:28:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiXRh-0000yX-6c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:28:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37983) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXRc-0000xG-3t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:28:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXRX-0003rs-Et for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:28:20 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:33373) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXRX-0003ro-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:28:15 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXRV-0003Rt-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:28:13 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:28:13 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:28:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:27:59 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 23 Message-ID: <87y5tn43hs.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Fi6P+OOfesuyj198gS1vOo+gEnI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:28:23 -0000 On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:27 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> It can work, with a lot of fiddling, but is unreliable and causes many >> issues that are hard to replicate, timeouts especially. I don't know of >> anyone happily using it on W32 and think disabling it on W32 is a good >> choice. LMI> If it can work, isn't there a way to make it work reliably? Where does LMI> it fail, usually? I don't know the answer to either question, you'll have to search through the Gnus bugs for the last 10 years. LMI> But if this is the case, I can add a test like LMI> (memq system-type '(windows-nt ms-dos)) LMI> to `starttls-available-p'... Opinions? Works For Me. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 15:37:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiXae-0001t1-IP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40739) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXaa-0001nG-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXaY-0005IC-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:36 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39802) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXaY-0005Hz-JA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXaU-0007kz-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:30 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:30 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:18 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 35 Message-ID: <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:3CHGvpYRW6V4wXNVa3xIO/TiBu4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:37:37 -0000 On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:49 +0100 scar Fuentes wrote: F> Ted Zlatanov writes: F> Sharing the gnutls dll is so wrong at some many levels that I wont F> start discussing it. >> >> I am puzzled by this. Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? F> This is a common scenario on MS Windows: multiple providers of binary F> packages, multiple installers with different install policies even for F> the same installer, lots of directories on PATH (each application lives F> on its own directory and often wants to be listed on PATH), varying F> policies about where a non-privileged user is allowed to put binaries, F> multiple incompatible binary macropackages that provides the same F> executables and libraries with the same names (Cygwin, MSYS, GnuWin32 F> and what-not), a lack of culture of system administration, a growing F> tendency to rely on self-updating packages... and the list goes on. OK, thanks for explaining. I'm not convinced it's *better for the user* that we use ELPA to deliver the DLL, but it seems like a pain to make a non-Emacs solution work reliably, so we're better off making our solution only for Emacs. How unfortunate. F> For a Windows binary package to be robust, it must be as self-contained F> as possible. Quality-wise, one of the best decisions I ever made was to F> distribute the C/C++ MS runtime dlls along with the rest of my binaries, F> no matter they are already installed on virtually all MS Windows F> machines. Certain long-standing, very nasty bugs simply went away. I see. So, assuming we agree on the ELPA package approach, maybe we should ship W32 Emacs with a gnutls-w32 package and the DLL and all the load paths set up already, so it can self-update and it works by default. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 15:41:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiXeO-0002Z9-80 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:41:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48995) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXeL-0002Vv-Vo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:41:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXeK-0005vY-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:41:29 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:55248) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXeK-0005vU-8d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:41:28 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXeD-0002jg-NM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:41:21 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEW6X48HAQPXpLFJIC4U CA13QFKo6KtIAAACPUlEQVQ4jWWUTZLiMAyFPUn7AC7MPh2aPW7Z+zZW9gZH97/KPDkhdM1oARRf nv4VY7rNv23CH9YYEljVD7FyGECSJpK4EFHI2fvsYB7AOXZuwW/nAwU6PQ5QJLji3Dn7cAt0/oMn l6CAJL5AMvD+8Nk7gEwNwKs+xMHY7wecKlhFmlukRY8YlMsafGaNYRORS8iwUShChYKDLwChxskS SePgJbU1wCujRjzJMi7EHAFOHF1wvIHIYlkrfGg92a8dDPOsreoda64ntzqvwLzb2Ho74MptisMa d4vMB3jO8a6g8G4vIPPyM88rZ42SHfs3SN/zHF/PczyALU8A19NCCi/FWC7lK82hz6bPYwMXLS+y Ak3YHyD6chvZP+M/WV0KptjY3cPuKe+Kr2dBV0u+/9qSDQzYkCT8Y9429BjWlZjieYDCiMWOtbSB C9rJ+We2JMN1GqqMO/jqIc8K8Hit9aX4fAEdPSaKiFsdn30vT1BQIwVxMburXJD7bNGAJm0l3sHF OQA3YPIJG4557eC6Ne4ORT+F9QA+KlksL6qQw9VUr/16oEjU0hh5wY5srRn0wiwaI0nXMum1YTtF j85WDQ6iX3B1WVptpsqtA+0TstLKP5J0YD+qLRCvyw5WUQViRVWsOIR1Aw0KjaE3DNCkxF2RgEyr 1hIAxdYBgo+FqpnsgssaFSQFi/pG1nWaRLiMukXo7Qb6+RmUHk9aGek46KbXos2p12Ybmf9t3vdi Gt6npLsCQy+H7Z009PfSXzwDvTPdH4G4AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Various's _Disco Discharge: Pink Pounders (2)_: "Peggi Blu - Girls It Ain't Easy (Original 12" mix)" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:41:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:37:18 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RiXeD-0002jg-NM X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326314482.17465@rwYDv9O8Kcyff4Xhd59Dtw X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:41:30 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > I see. So, assuming we agree on the ELPA package approach, maybe we > should ship W32 Emacs with a gnutls-w32 package and the DLL and all the > load paths set up already, so it can self-update and it works by > default. I don't really see that the ELPA solution really helps much here. Wouldn't it be easier just to include the gnutls DLL in the Emacs zip file? Problem solved. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 16:25:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiYLG-0004t3-J7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:25:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48899) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYLD-0004sT-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:25:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYLC-0004pO-Kf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:25:47 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:44566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYLC-0004p9-Cp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:25:46 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00M00M3PIJ00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:25:07 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA00GSQM5RIOX1@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:25:04 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:23:47 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83k457p3fg.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:25:48 -0000 > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:49 +0100 >=20 > This is a common scenario on MS Windows: multiple providers of bina= ry > packages, multiple installers with different install policies even = for > the same installer, lots of directories on PATH (each application l= ives > on its own directory and often wants to be listed on PATH), varying > policies about where a non-privileged user is allowed to put binari= es, > multiple incompatible binary macropackages that provides the same > executables and libraries with the same names (Cygwin, MSYS, GnuWin= 32 > and what-not), a lack of culture of system administration, a growin= g > tendency to rely on self-updating packages... and the list goes on. >=20 > If a user is informed about the need to fix GnuTLS (through the loc= al > newspaper, I guess) his first reaction would be "GnuWhat? Is it on = my > machine?" Next, as every desktop computer user would do, he perform= s a > full HD file search for the library ("and BTW, how is it named, > exactly?") After locating the instance (or multiple instances) he n= eeds > to figure out the correct procedure to update it ("Was this install= ed > along something else? Has this be put here by an installer of some = sort? > Does that installer offer an update method? What depends on this dl= l? > What's the installed version, and what's the compatible update? Is = it > available somewhere? If I use this newer version which I found with= a > Google search, can something break apart?") >=20 > Sure, for us it all looks very easy, but I suffered DLL hell a few = times > and it is very frustrating. Can't imagine how can it be for a novic= e or > a less computer-savvy user. You are describing a situation that existed on Windows 9X, it no longer exists on modern machines. DLLs are either versioned in their names or use the SxS mechanism. Take the GnuTLS example: the previous DLL of version 2.x was named libgnutls-26.dll, while the new 3.x one is libgnutls-28.dll. Use you= r friendly depends.exe program, and you will see that programs that depend on one of them (were linked with its import library) will refuse to load the other. The same is true of libintl, libiconv, and all the other libraries many Windows ports of GNU software need. Poof! the problem doesn't exist. Please stop spreading this FUD, you are tripping people like Ted who don't know better into wrong conclusions based on what hurt you (and me) several years ago. THERE'S NO SUCH PROBLEM ANYMORE! > For a Windows binary package to be robust, it must be as self-conta= ined > as possible. True, but irrelevant. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 16:31:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiYQs-0006UN-JC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38223) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYQq-0006UG-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYQo-0005XL-Vw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:36 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:46172) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYQo-0005XF-Gw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:34 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00M00M9OJE00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:31:33 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA00B84MGK2KI3@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:31:33 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:30:15 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87y5tnqmts.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83ipkrp34o.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87ty4e9j19.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83obumqa0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83r4zfpcfv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tnqmts.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:31:37 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:27 +0100 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > [snip] >=20 > >> Just set dynamic-library-alist as it contains ('gnutls > >> . "/path/to/gnutls/gnutls.dll") (or whatever are the right names= ). > > > > Putting DLLs in arbitrary places is not TRT. >=20 > Nobody is suggesting an *arbitrary* place. Where ELPA puts its file= s is > anything but arbitrary. Yes, it is, for DLLs and other binaries. Those should go where binaries live, not where Lisp packages live. > > We should put it in the > > same directory where emacs.exe lives, and then there's no need to= do > > anything with dynamic-library-alist. >=20 > Depending on how Emacs was installed, that would require elevated > privileges, something ELPA can not ask for, AFAIK. FUD. Emacs is not installed by corporate policies on Windows, so thi= s won't happen except in very rare cases. > Please keep in mind that we (or at least Ted and I) are discussing > the feasibility of using ELPA for providing and updating the > required dll for Emacs STARTTLS capability to work on Windows. Excellent. But please do it right, or your changes will be rejected flat out. There's a certain organization to the Emacs tree, includin= g on Windows; please follow it, so we could give users reasonably clear explanations for them to be able to maintain the tree. > Yes, putting the dll along the emacs executable on the same directo= ry > works, that's what I do with my own software. However, my applicati= ons > require a privileged user to upgrade or install new components Then it's _your_ problem, and I'm sure you already have a solution fo= r it. Having a DLL near the .exe is the recommended practice and a saf= e one at that. Please follow it, if you want to do this job. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 16:32:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiYRJ-0007L1-3B for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38436) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYRD-0007KJ-JR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYR8-0005dy-RS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:59 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:65312) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYR8-0005dk-Eh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:31:54 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00300MF6QJ00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:31:53 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA003R8MH4FU80@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:31:53 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:30:35 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Message-id: <83hb0bp344.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:32:03 -0000 > From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:39:27 +0100 > > Ted Zlatanov writes: > > > It can work, with a lot of fiddling, but is unreliable and causes many > > issues that are hard to replicate, timeouts especially. I don't know of > > anyone happily using it on W32 and think disabling it on W32 is a good > > choice. > > If it can work, isn't there a way to make it work reliably? Where does > it fail, usually? > > But if this is the case, I can add a test like > > (memq system-type '(windows-nt ms-dos)) > > to `starttls-available-p'... Opinions? Looks right to me, thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 16:32:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiYS9-0007mj-Aa for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38640) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYS7-0007mZ-3r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYS6-0005kR-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:55 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:61143) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiYS6-0005kL-1g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:54 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXA00K00MG94K00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:32:52 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.18.76]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXA00JWSMISRG70@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:32:52 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:31:34 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87ty4bqmon.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83fwfvp32h.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83pqezpcds.fsf@gnu.org> <87ty4bqmon.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:32:56 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:42:32 +0100 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > >> He's repeating that loading a dll with a pathname would require = changes > >> at the C level. > > > > And I still submit that is so. > > > >> Just that if w32_delayed_load does not fit the bill, writing the > >> required function by tweaking w32_delayed_load is so easy that s= omeone > >> like me who doesn't know the Emacs C dialect can do the job. > > > > You are welcome to do that and present a complete solution for th= e > > issue at hand. Maybe then this thread will become anything but > > hand-waving. >=20 > So w32_delayed_load plus dynamic-library-alist is not enough to loa= d a > dll from a precise directory? What remains to be solved? I didn't say it was and I didn't say it wasn't. I didn't research the issue enough to know a complete recipe, just enough to realize that changes _are_ needed. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 17:12:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiZ4L-0005lw-5p for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58809) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZ4F-0005gM-P0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZ4B-0002TF-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:19 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54290) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZ4B-0002T0-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:15 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZ49-0000vI-7T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:12:13 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:12:13 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:12:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:01 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 16 Message-ID: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:cigV5YwZgx0RZbMc7F7bkHhoj4Q= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:12:23 -0000 On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:41:20 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> I see. So, assuming we agree on the ELPA package approach, maybe we >> should ship W32 Emacs with a gnutls-w32 package and the DLL and all the >> load paths set up already, so it can self-update and it works by >> default. LMI> I don't really see that the ELPA solution really helps much here. LMI> Wouldn't it be easier just to include the gnutls DLL in the Emacs zip LMI> file? Problem solved. :-) I'm concerned about GnuTLS updates after the install. An ELPA package could do that, a simple DLL drop couldn't. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 17:35:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiZQQ-0006Bn-Mm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:35:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46546) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZQM-00061k-E6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:35:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZQK-0005ST-04 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:35:10 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:56730) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZQJ-0005Rq-LH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:35:07 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZQG-0002fD-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:35:04 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:35:03 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:35:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:34:50 +0100 Lines: 61 Message-ID: <87pqezqeph.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83k457p3fg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ksqXBcgsN3CqvWQ3kwC2eNhiUZE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:35:12 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > You are describing a situation that existed on Windows 9X, it no > longer exists on modern machines. DLLs are either versioned in their > names or use the SxS mechanism. Before putting too much hope into SxS I encourage you to read the wikipedia page about it that you linked on a previous post. > Take the GnuTLS example: the previous DLL of version 2.x was named > libgnutls-26.dll, while the new 3.x one is libgnutls-28.dll. The 3.x version is named -28 ? > Use your friendly depends.exe program, and you will see that programs > that depend on one of them (were linked with its import library) will > refuse to load the other. The same is true of libintl, libiconv, and > all the other libraries many Windows ports of GNU software need. Appending a number to a name doesn't solve the problem. > Poof! the problem doesn't exist. A simple experiment: put a libgnutls-26.dll on the system32 directory. It is shared, right? Now install cygwin or msys, or any of multiple standalone applications which are cygwin-based, and put its binary directory before system32 on PATH. See it? Another experiment: build an application such as Emacs with VC++ 6 or MinGW with the default settings. Now make it to use a dll (GnuTLS, an image library...) compiled with a modern release of VS. Unless such library follows a very strict policy about resource handling (and possibly other aspects) you are asking for problems. I'm sure that I don't need to explain the dangers of mixing different major versions of the C runtime library. Think on a user that discovers that sending mail with Emacs just works because some other package installed GnuTLS on some directory listed on PATH. Time later he decides to uninstall the application and afterwards tries to send an e-mail, just to notice to his dismay that it doesn't work anymore. Confusing, isn't it? And then there is the issue with security fixes... If Emacs enters the bussiness of secure protocols provide a mechanism for notifying the user about updates, and make the upate process a no-brainer. Do you think it is serious to let the user with a broken GnuTLS for years? Either take full responsability or dismiss it completely: "Emacs supports StartTLS through GnuTLS. The library usually can be downloaded . Such library is not part of Emacs and no effort is made related to checking its suitability, correctness, etc." > Please stop spreading this FUD, you are tripping people like Ted who > don't know better into wrong conclusions based on what hurt you (and > me) several years ago. THERE'S NO SUCH PROBLEM ANYMORE! Please stop using inflamatory language and offensive assertions. I could say that your real-world experience distributing, installing and supporting software across heterogenous environments looks quite limited, but I'll rather suppose that you were very lucky so far. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 17:47:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiZbz-0001iS-Qx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:47:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49487) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZby-0001h9-4L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:47:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZbv-00077K-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:47:10 -0500 Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:36643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZbv-00076d-Ke for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:47:07 -0500 Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so12225087qcs.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:47:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=EOA7ScZH1MapGefqTDEVqbcTyNrH0Jg+zOOf7MZVohU=; b=rw/h8kx2z+AiTKOdnxB46q4n1BPPVOkKvo9k5SV1zs+9K6W9KLmgx/IhAvTXhVWZux /8K6gJc1cfo7x1HREQ3kIXYZ42yHjkb5vOsMdAMXnV/hlIWXHgqdUpJ6NX436i7xfIJC 1rjA6E0l/7NX+PGWMWM3/vLoOZSyrYFfzd490= Received: by 10.224.18.147 with SMTP id w19mr70248384qaa.40.1325717226820; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.123] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eb5sm110450333qab.10.2012.01.04.14.47.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:47:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 From: chad In-Reply-To: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:47:02 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:47:10 -0000 On Jan 4, 2012, at 2:12 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > LMI> I don't really see that the ELPA solution really helps much here. > LMI> Wouldn't it be easier just to include the gnutls DLL in the Emacs = zip > LMI> file? Problem solved. :-) >=20 > I'm concerned about GnuTLS updates after the install. An ELPA package > could do that, a simple DLL drop couldn't. Reading through the thread, it seems likely that there are two main = groups of W32-GnuTLS-interested parties: those that almost never update = a `working' emacs (ala Drew Adams' report about of emacs 21.3 users), = and those that update very frequently. I'd guess that a `stable emacs' = w32 installer would be very helpful for the former (and agree with = Juanma that it would be good for emacs use in general), while I'd expect = the other group to be more comfortable with piecemeal updates of = emacs/packages/DLLs/etc.=20 If this guess matches reality, then I have a suggestion: by policy put = the DLLs with the binary, make the installer DTRT, and then add some = sort of `update alert' facility that checks ELPA to notify users about = new versions. This facility would not necessarily update the software = itself, but would notify users that a new version of the software = exists, along with notes about the changes (especially the severity of = the changes) and instructions for updating. The installer-based default = would only (somehow) bug the user about severe problems (such as = security breaches for GnuTLS), pointing them at a new installer. Users = who opted in could be notified of all changes (perhaps displaying = ChangeLogs or vc status messages at the far end). *Chad= From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 18:01:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiZpl-0005Sc-CK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:01:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38660) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZpi-0005SN-VC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:01:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZph-0000Xf-Oq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:01:22 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:56983) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZph-0000XS-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:01:21 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiZpe-0005Vy-JR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:01:18 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:01:18 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:01:18 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:00:57 +0100 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:GMW3PvCH8Si5DrNHEJqXMV3/VmM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:01:24 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 20:21, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> For a Windows binary package to be robust, it must be as self-contained >> as possible. Quality-wise, one of the best decisions I ever made was to >> distribute the C/C++ MS runtime dlls along with the rest of my binaries, >> no matter they are already installed on virtually all MS Windows >> machines. Certain long-standing, very nasty bugs simply went away. > > Assuming you're right, You can bet on it. At the beginning there was several versions of MSVCRT.DLL floating around, some of them notoriously buggy. Of course, everybody installed the dll on system32. The problem was partially fixed by SxS, which essentially ensured that applications that didn't embed manifests (and hence didn't required a specific version of the dll) used the default, "safe" one provided by MS with the OS. That started with Windows XP, although it doesn't protect you from inadvertently picking a dll inside a directory that comes first on PATH. With Windows 2000, I had to face one of the more frustrating bugs on my career: a few users reported crashes, freezes and data corruption (on a DB app!). It took me months to discover the problem for one of the users: a mass storage device driver and accompanying backup utility installed their own custom-modified MSVCRT.DLL on system32, which somehow caused my app to freeze when certain gui action was performed. They didn't bothered to use a different version string or id on the resources of the library, so it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. Then I started to put my runtime dlls on the same directory as the rest of my binaries, and the problems of those users disappeared. Most of them haven't that storage device. The issue costed me a several hundred work hours, mostly trying to desperately find bugs inside my application. > that seems like a wonderful side project. Why > not start a project to build a prepackaged Emacs binary installer for > Windows? Aside from installing DLLs, it could set up other things > (after asking the user, of course), like CUA mode, and other binaries, > like a better ftp than the standard one. > > I do really believe that a user-friendly installer for Windows is a > good idea. I strongly *don't* believe the Emacs project should bear > the load of it. I think that's more or less what Lennart is already doing, isn't it? OTOH an installer that could act as an update tool for the dlls could be interesting. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 18:16:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ria4b-0007Le-Q4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44244) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria4Z-0007LE-MB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria4Y-0002qx-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:43 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38116) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria4Y-0002qi-0z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:42 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria4U-0003gE-QT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:16:38 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:16:38 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:16:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:26 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 37 Message-ID: <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:xm19G+Czm2Y3U9GazKYmD3bfXEo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:16:44 -0000 On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:47:02 -0800 chad wrote: c> I have a suggestion: by policy put the DLLs with the binary, make the c> installer DTRT, and then add some sort of `update alert' facility c> that checks ELPA to notify users about new versions. This facility c> would not necessarily update the software itself, but would notify c> users that a new version of the software exists, along with notes c> about the changes (especially the severity of the changes) and c> instructions for updating. The installer-based default would only c> (somehow) bug the user about severe problems (such as security c> breaches for GnuTLS), pointing them at a new installer. Users who c> opted in could be notified of all changes (perhaps displaying c> ChangeLogs or vc status messages at the far end). I really like your suggestion. It lets us write the DLL deployment code later or never, depending on what users want, but at first we will only do the acceptable minimum. It can also work with a standalone GnuTLS W32 installer, if we ever decide that's a better approach. GnuTLS provides gnutls_check_version() which we can use to dynamically find out the version of the currently loaded GnuTLS DLL, by calling it with a NULL. So the package's version check should be fairly easy to write, and its version string will simply match the GnuTLS release it's tracking. I think, to get this working, we need a list of critical ELPA packages that Emacs will check for updates on startup and alert the user to upgrade. By default that list should be empty on all platforms, except on W32 it will contain the "gnutls-w32" package. The actual package will have to live on the GNU ELPA site, so that will require a network connection to be opened... this will almost certainly displease some Emacs users if we make it a default, but I do think it's the right one. As a user I would like to have such a list, and will probably add a few packages to it for my personal use. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 18:19:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ria6n-0008W6-8B for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:19:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44717) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria6j-0008NN-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:18:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria6i-0003IU-Ft for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:18:57 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38791) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria6i-0003IK-Ap for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:18:56 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ria6h-0004gN-Mw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:55 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:55 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:55 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:42 +0100 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87hb0bqcod.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83r4zfpcfv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tnqmts.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83ipkrp34o.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:eo5KqrCYL5+AkNt6W2rY0vWNELU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:18:58 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: [snip] >> Depending on how Emacs was installed, that would require elevated >> privileges, something ELPA can not ask for, AFAIK. > > FUD. Emacs is not installed by corporate policies on Windows, so this > won't happen except in very rare cases. Have you used MS Windows Vista or Seven lately? If you install Emacs on "Program Files" Emacs itself does not have write rights to its own directory (actually, sometimes the OS can fool the app into believing that it is creating or changing files there, but in reality it is diverting the operation to somewhere else. Look for "File and Registry Virtualization" for further info). You must fidle with directory permissions (that is, shutting down a security measure) for Emacs, or the user in front of the computer, to alter its contents without escalating privileges. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 18:49:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiaZw-0005cR-9A for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:49:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56095) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiaZt-0005bM-MX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:49:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiaZs-0007r7-G7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:49:05 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:42602) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiaZs-0007pn-5q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:49:04 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so36780776iac.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:49:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EZktPS/nbPbOZPVaGP9u5I8UXgB/P52mxtwIN31t9Gw=; b=MZn3Rl1Q1VYooNrcGs0MsGW6/8jEEi5vtD03nHPFY7CgM71DVuBDpZrYbynr1DFfpL K3RbL30sy95jVvYNVZAgQjXJ3FJtCuQLJGOLNrlfBjX9hzFTO2u1yaV1/E5Hzy/17kce bxcA43qQvjlcS2M+XggrA/Wrd2UfvtBkbSRd0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.163.101 with SMTP id yh5mr7101501igb.29.1325720943616; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:49:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <327FD938-2CED-4F59-8836-065EA3B97AE7@swipnet.se> References: <327FD938-2CED-4F59-8836-065EA3B97AE7@swipnet.se> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:49:03 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: nsterm.m warnings From: Carsten Mattner To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:49:06 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Jan Dj=E4rv wrote: > > 4 jan 2012 kl. 18:53 skrev Carsten Mattner: > >> I think at least one of the following or ideally both should be fixed. >> >> nsterm.m: In function =91-[EmacsView conversationIdentifier]=92: >> nsterm.m:5053: warning: conflicting types for =91-(long >> int)conversationIdentifier=92 >> /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Headers/NSInputManager.h:25: >> warning: previous declaration of =91-(NSInteger)conversationIdentifier= =92 > > What do you mean by "both"? =A0This is only one warning. It's the same cause, but two warning messages. You could logically group them to one, yes. > It has no practical importance, and only occurs if you build a 32-bit > executable, which is rare on OSX. If it's safe to ignore in a 32-bit build, ok. Strictly speaking the code is incorrect, isn't it? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 19:19:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rib3X-0004zo-6H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:19:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53793) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rib3T-0004sW-9t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:19:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rib3R-0003lx-Hq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:19:39 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:56354) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rib3R-0003lZ-BY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:19:37 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so407dak.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:19:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mmFq5qPaY3P3pPKcURp8MH9Q39NfOy4Wo382fHVzjw0=; b=oezHn2DrMiJoE7MOer91bl8Nzt71Q9Qk0d/syf9UBuVfYioAGOE1GHKLpt5VBMWVHe YxqALqgz172LQKfwFxzhGHaJ0wqd3pflowsPywEiPGx04NwY2/PpypZDDoddlec6scrg oVUv46WdBtUn/TK6ZKNtmou/Z9nSocLIr1piY= Received: by 10.68.191.6 with SMTP id gu6mr115296289pbc.91.1325722776186; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:19:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:18:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 01:18:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:19:40 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 00:00, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > It took me > months to discover the problem for one of the users: a mass storage > device driver and accompanying backup utility installed their own > custom-modified MSVCRT.DLL on system32, which somehow caused my app to > freeze when certain gui action was performed. They didn't bothered to > use a different version string or id on the resources of the library, so > it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. That just means that someone should be hit in the head with a printed copy of the full MSDN site. Repeatedly. > Then I started to put my > runtime dlls on the same directory as the rest of my binaries, and the > problems of those users disappeared. Wonderful. But GnuTLS is not "our" runtime DLL, not more than msvcrt.dll is= . Please understand: I'm not really arguing against installing the GnuTLS DLL along the emacs.exe binary (though, as a separate project, I still think it's better to install it on its own). I'm arguing against, and will continue to fight, *distributing* it in the first place with Emacs. We *are* *not* a binary distribution project, and we only do it for Windows because most Windows users do not have a building environment. Going that route means less programming resources and more administrivia. > I think that's more or less what Lennart is already doing, isn't it? Sort of. IMHO, Lennart's EmacsW32 is a fork, because he includes some changes that aren't just customizations (emacsclient is a prime example). > OTOH an installer that could act as an update tool for the dlls could be > interesting. Yes, definitely. As long as developing it and maintaining it is anybody else's (=3D "not the Emacs w32 people") responsibility :-) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 21:00:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RicdC-0001tD-Ul for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:00:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49691) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ricd8-0001sL-NX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:00:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ricd7-0000uU-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:00:34 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35312) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ricd7-0000uO-3H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:00:33 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ricd5-0006AH-5t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:31 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:31 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:15 +0100 Lines: 67 Message-ID: <87d3ayrjrk.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:M/4x4CyQVbSQFmwNfUPWyt2UUNs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:00:37 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 00:00, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> It took me >> months to discover the problem for one of the users: a mass storage >> device driver and accompanying backup utility installed their own >> custom-modified MSVCRT.DLL on system32, which somehow caused my app to >> freeze when certain gui action was performed. They didn't bothered to >> use a different version string or id on the resources of the library, so >> it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. > > That just means that someone should be hit in the head with a printed > copy of the full MSDN site. Repeatedly. It *also* means that depending on unknown third parties is asking for trouble. >> Then I started to put my >> runtime dlls on the same directory as the rest of my binaries, and the >> problems of those users disappeared. > > Wonderful. But GnuTLS is not "our" runtime DLL, not more than msvcrt.dll is. > > Please understand: I'm not really arguing against installing the > GnuTLS DLL along the emacs.exe binary (though, as a separate project, > I still think it's better to install it on its own). I'm arguing > against, and will continue to fight, *distributing* it in the first > place with Emacs. We *are* *not* a binary distribution project, and we > only do it for Windows because most Windows users do not have a > building environment. Going that route means less programming > resources and more administrivia. AFAIK Windows binaries are distributed from the GNU servers just because someone volunteers to do the job, not because it is a requisite for the release. So it should be up to those volunteers to decide if they want to include those libraries (GnuTLS, image support, etc) on the binary package. And if someone volunteers for maintaining a system that updates those libraries, it is the job he picked. A slightly different issue is to decide if changes to Emacs sources are allowed to do that chore on certain way, but then it is up to the volunteers again and solid reasons should be given to reject those contributions. >> I think that's more or less what Lennart is already doing, isn't it? > > Sort of. IMHO, Lennart's EmacsW32 is a fork, because he includes some > changes that aren't just customizations (emacsclient is a prime > example). IIRC Lennart also distributes an unpatched Emacs. >> OTOH an installer that could act as an update tool for the dlls could be >> interesting. > > Yes, definitely. As long as developing it and maintaining it is > anybody else's (= "not the Emacs w32 people") responsibility :-) Ah, yes, the Emacs w32 people. Now I understand your stance better (and maybe Eli's). I think it would be unfair and unreasonable to make you responsible of doing the job related to those libraries, but I also think that you are not obliged in any way to provide binaries of anything. Keeping the sources on a ready state is enough, thank you. (Not saying that you are *obliged* to do that either.) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 21:37:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RidCm-0004Tq-ET for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47749) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidCk-0004Tk-RN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidCj-0005nH-Qn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:22 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:59235) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidCj-0005nA-MB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:37:21 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so114837pbd.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:37:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZaG/5141itqqQFcePQq3Wso5wRIYCfTKziGbcIEW1C0=; b=iaqQum5Mj4R+8fXoe1PXEnZvi/ko4thNRb9Uiqalxmq5i6MY8XZT4vjY5ddAFGXHmA nN+q+8qOTvNq+UCgFwHWGk67ANPoPZ4pjvC4Tq7+w7YsBLp5OYBoyUA4dbgMPGof4L4e JzXX5Gvfhxzfj30mYen/Wzo6WDvRCjusY3zK4= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr757238pbv.40.1325731040169; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:37:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:36:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87d3ayrjrk.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87d3ayrjrk.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:36:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:37:23 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 03:00, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > It *also* means that depending on unknown third parties is asking for > trouble. Yes. Unknown. > AFAIK Windows binaries are distributed from the GNU servers just because > someone volunteers to do the job, not because it is a requisite for the > release. The binary tarballs for Windows are more or less "blessed". They are not a requisite for the release, because strictly speaking, nothing Windows-related is a requisite for the release (I suppose an exception would be fixing bugs related to data loss or security issues). > So it should be up to those volunteers to decide if they want > to include those libraries (GnuTLS, image support, etc) on the binary > package. The moment the packages are accesible from the official site, there's certain responsibilities. For example, to issue security upgrades as fast as possible. > A slightly different issue is to decide if changes to Emacs sources are > allowed to do that chore on certain way, but then it is up to the > volunteers again and solid reasons should be given to reject those > contributions. So far, none of the ways that had been proposed has been convincing, and solid reasons have been given against them. It's just that we are not agreeing on what "solid reasons" mean. As far as I'm concerned, using ELPA to distribute Windows DLLs is gross beyond description, for example. Any mechanism that makes Emacs try to auto-upgrade itself is also a no-no (in my view, I don't know Stefan and Chong's opinion). > IIRC Lennart also distributes an unpatched Emacs. Yes, though I think he doesn't update it very often (I haven't checked recently and I could be wrong). > Ah, yes, the Emacs w32 people. Now I understand your stance better (and > maybe Eli's). I think it would be unfair and unreasonable to make you > responsible of doing the job related to those libraries, but I also > think that you are not obliged in any way to provide binaries of > anything. Responsibility and obligation are disjoint concepts. I don't mind the load, but I hate accepting (not personally, but as a project) the responsibility to do things, like compiling GnuTLS binaries and distributing them, that are utterly disconnected from Emacs development per se. The moment we do that, people will expect we also provide up-to-date binaries for image libs, libxml2, d-bus, you name it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 21:40:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RidFV-00051S-4V for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:40:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56395) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidFT-00051M-BE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:40:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidFR-0006YT-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:40:11 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:41928) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidFR-0006YL-Mq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:40:09 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RidFQ-0002rI-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:40:08 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:40:08 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:40:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:34:25 -0500 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Oy7hazcG5CPXGO0EucnZwApcy4U= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:40:12 -0000 on Mon Jan 02 2012, "Drew Adams" wrote: >> Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often >> with bug releases if needed. > > No, no, no, please. Just the opposite. > Bake Emacs _more_ fully before releasing it. > > Get it right. Document it well. Mention all user-visible changes in > NEWS. Fix outstanding bugs. > > Richard had exactly the right approach to releasing Emacs, IMO. He > was attacked by some because they felt the release cycle was too > short. I, for one, appreciated his thoroughness and insistence on > high quality. Is it not possible to have thorougness and high quality with more frequent releases of smaller scope? Maybe the problem (if there is one) is that trunk is allowed to drift too far from a releasable state. I'm just saying. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 21:58:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RidXD-0006Ve-Rt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:58:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38429) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidXA-0006V6-GG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:58:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidX9-00009y-HP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:58:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37021) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidX9-00009u-CL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:58:27 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-44-158.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.44.158]:50974 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RidX8-0007s3-Io; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:58:27 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:58:19 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Dave Abrahams's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:34:25 -0500") Message-ID: <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:58:30 -0000 Dave Abrahams writes: > Is it not possible to have thorougness and high quality with more > frequent releases of smaller scope? Maybe the problem (if there is > one) is that trunk is allowed to drift too far from a releasable > state. I'm just saying. Features like bidi can't really be added piecemeal, and this goes back to Eli's point about bit-rotting feature trees. Frankly, I'm not convinced there's any problem. Emacs 23.3 was released less than one year ago, and we are already well into the pretest for 24.1. Doing considerably better would require resources we don't have. Note that all those projects that are being held up as models for their periodic release systems have people working on them full time! From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 22:36:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rie7w-00027Z-H1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37171) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rie7u-00026L-4T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rie7t-0004vL-0w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:26 -0500 Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:50296) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rie7r-0004v5-6J; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:23 -0500 Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so95341qcs.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.110.210 with SMTP id o18mr875031qap.72.1325734582161; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id el3sm48836564qab.8.2012.01.04.19.36.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id E5E421DC760C; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 22:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:58:19 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:36:27 -0000 on Wed Jan 04 2012, Chong Yidong wrote: > Dave Abrahams writes: > >> Is it not possible to have thorougness and high quality with more >> frequent releases of smaller scope? Maybe the problem (if there is >> one) is that trunk is allowed to drift too far from a releasable >> state. I'm just saying. > > Features like bidi can't really be added piecemeal, and this goes back > to Eli's point about bit-rotting feature trees. > > Frankly, I'm not convinced there's any problem. Emacs 23.3 was released > less than one year ago, and we are already well into the pretest for > 24.1. Doing considerably better would require resources we don't have. > Note that all those projects that are being held up as models for their > periodic release systems have people working on them full time! For what it's worth, Boost has no full-time people, and it releases four times yearly. It wasn't always that way, though: for a while there we had a period of painfully slow multi-year releases. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 23:23:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RierQ-0007en-Ad for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:23:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54251) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RierM-0007do-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:23:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RierL-0003vw-Aw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:23:24 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55635) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RierL-0003vk-4c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:23:23 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RierJ-0008EG-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:23:21 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:23:21 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:23:21 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:23:06 +0100 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <878vlmrd5h.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:cDHutlxy6pfSXazWxf6V+1LFSZU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:23:26 -0000 Dave Abrahams writes: > For what it's worth, Boost has no full-time people, and it releases four > times yearly. It wasn't always that way, though: for a while there we > had a period of painfully slow multi-year releases. Boost is anything but similar to Emacs from the project manager POV. After using the development sources of Emacs for years with great pleasure (it is, possibly, the most stable piece of software after the OS kernel itself on any of my machines, if we take into account its complexity and rate of defects) one is tempted to ask for more frequent releases, as it is on a release-ready state most of the time, mainly if we accept the quality level of other popular software that is well below Emacs'. But then one wonders if that semi-permanent release-ready state is not caused by the long feature-freeze periods which stabilizing effect pervades the subsequent years of development. The fact that Emacs is used by its own developers helps a lot to its stability, but going into a permanent feature-frenzy mode probably would cause a steady deterioration on Emacs' quality. As mentioned on a previous message, IMO offloading some of the big Lisp packages from the Emacs distribution would benefit the developers and the users. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 04 23:43:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RifAu-0001sI-64 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:43:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45150) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifAs-0001sC-7D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:43:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifAr-0006Us-AQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:43:34 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:49814) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifAr-0006Uo-81 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:43:33 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAIIpBU9MCoO8/2dsb2JhbABDrHGBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAsOJhIUGA0kLodftSWMEQSIOZpMhFI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,460,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="155351045" Received: from 76-10-131-188.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.131.188]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 04 Jan 2012 23:43:32 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9A2E058C01; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:43:31 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Vyacheslav Gonakhchyan Subject: Re: Emacs 24 semantic C++ completion problem Message-ID: References: <4EFCE3A1.7030302@siege-engine.com> <87hb0i9zxt.fsf@engster.org> <878vlu9ss2.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zm80kf.fsf@engster.org> <87mxa9963m.fsf@engster.org> <87fwg18zub.fsf@engster.org> <87r4zleygr.fsf@engster.org> <87aa65hpcb.fsf@engster.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:43:31 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87aa65hpcb.fsf@engster.org> (David Engster's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:33:08 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: "Eric M. Ludlam" , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:43:35 -0000 >>> We used to have the `semantic-lex-c-preprocessor-symbol-file' defcustom >>> autoloaded, but that would never get past the Monnier-filter. I'm not >> Could someone explain to me what is the problem? > The general problem is this: Say you have a custom variable V, belonging > to package P, which is initialized with some list of filenames. When you > require P, it will use V's value to set up some things, but will only do > so once. How should the user add further filenames to V in his .emacs? > If he first requires P, then any changes to V will be moot. Hence he has > to look up the default value of V and then use setq-default, with the > additional files added. The simplest solution (or rather: cop-out) is to > autoload the defcustom, but I remember you saying that this is a no-no. Real "no-no"s are hard to come by, and indeed autoloaded defcustoms are easy to find in Emacs. The best solution depends on how V is expected to change in time and on what kind of changes the user is expected to apply to the value. Note that if the var is modified via Custom, then Custom will store the chosen value and further changes to V's default will be ignored, so if that's considered bad, maybe it shouldn't be a defcustom at all. If elements are almost never removed from that var, maybe splitting it into two (a defcustom that defaults to nil and defvar which holds the default set) will make things easier. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 00:05:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RifVm-0003Og-C3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:05:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51560) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifVk-0003Mw-2h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:05:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifVi-0001D2-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:05:07 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:58507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RifVh-0001Cn-V0; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:05:06 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RifVc-0002kn-5L; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:05:00 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Unwarranted invocation of starttls References: <83aa67s5zo.fsf@gnu.org> <834nwfs0k2.fsf@gnu.org> <83zke4po98.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tn7mnx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83hb0bp344.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEUsKysHBQYKCAgEAwQI BgcCAgKNabOKAAACNElEQVQ4jW2TXW7jMAyEaScHCCPtu6zyAFFZv8cCb2D4/lfZGbkNuu0KgRXr 4/BPtLhrjui6RUuae9Zs6ovfBQCrpaTNPec+17o1axmg5awNy2lzF6mh1pQKi6aanCB3gmpKsMUG 6wFao8JqtU2Ow4eXYz2OY/ebyIZ4Oct6uK87Twd4F6HUCcaB+75D7A+R5CucisN6H0YwfvMnFYkK OII3IJEZvwLFAQULhHLfvVyYlUCV1rZCvp/+Hzg/BoEhJPczh8O50+TG2MfpilVQcK4yIeg6gitf iVeCx5wIkG5rIBNTfAwJfa3+Qd8NnuhvJObyRgVi4Db8NrxfhOQxrZ50gIQQjhu4lEl9fcx/BmgO cPWU3uV+G45n9CR1Am3DBaoW3sq47Srj8i6wKUhQlkTQUq6SwzadYMPIMrEr6huAZqQ1NUS7nA1p JSULAKw86XaTi+pNFs0ASwf46BaTRpmnLReZrcqmy52Kbn3uXa7Xrc4F8wZgnVmZxTWsRFmec8Ho zNUItGOKZgAZaybgEh1PDNkJ6gvkwLNUw2yWARDGhiJbjacFBnXD0EYUszxAZ6wrz1EQXRoOCCIs ssSGzuDr6QiB8pg0dNGf1yUAYFvwOoKHnUlw9O2VE7M6d5ZMm/ITUFK/ncPV6x/bJPX12r/+lc/C f4Efizb/ZVAYPuJ/zkLPOjaMb/8NOKGt5W/nVu8DsBVNUZx9NuEMiu5aaNKUON1sYl1iKPDoy1ml ji1S+8D2FxYwpWLlU7+7AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Various's _Dark Matter: Multiverse 2004 - 2009 (1)_: "Circuit Breaker - Phonque (October's Nosebleed Remix)" Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:04:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83hb0bp344.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:30:35 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RifVc-0002kn-5L X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326344700.22329@8DLiporzmHU6CWhQgyYQoQ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:05:09 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> But if this is the case, I can add a test like >> >> (memq system-type '(windows-nt ms-dos)) >> >> to `starttls-available-p'... Opinions? > > Looks right to me, thanks. Ok; added to the Gnus repository, so it'll show up in Emacs after the sync. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 00:25:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rifoz-0005Uw-Cw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:25:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44970) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rifow-0005Uq-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rifov-00043g-B4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:40217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rifov-00043a-6Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:57 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rifou-0002S3-TV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:56 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:01 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:24:59 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:12:01 -0500 > > LMI> I don't really see that the ELPA solution really helps much here. > LMI> Wouldn't it be easier just to include the gnutls DLL in the Emacs zip > LMI> file? Problem solved. :-) > > I'm concerned about GnuTLS updates after the install. An ELPA package > could do that, a simple DLL drop couldn't. That's true, but if we assume that an urgent need to upgrade GnuTLS will not be too frequent, we can update it with each release and in binaries of development snapshots. That would probably do 80% of the job, if not more. That said, I'm not against an ELPA based solution. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 00:37:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rig0b-0006eC-LT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:37:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46584) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig0Y-0006e5-VR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig0Y-0005WZ-06 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:40348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig0X-0005WV-Th for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:57 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig0X-0005lQ-Pv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:57 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:26 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:37:00 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:26 -0500 > > I think, to get this working, we need a list of critical ELPA packages > that Emacs will check for updates on startup and alert the user to > upgrade. By default that list should be empty on all platforms, except > on W32 it will contain the "gnutls-w32" package. Again, why are we treating MS-Windows specially? Why shouldn't Emacs issue the same alert on GNU and Unix systems, if GnuTLS is found to be unavailable? The fact that several distributions have Emacs depend on GnuTLS does not mean all of them do or will, and let's not forget that even in the year 2012 users can build their own Emacs (without GnuTLS). From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 00:40:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rig4P-000764-71 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:40:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53095) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig4N-00075y-0a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:40:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig4L-00068F-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:40:54 -0500 Received: from mx2.bahnhof.se ([213.80.101.12]:57087) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig4L-00068B-Hh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:40:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (mf.bahnhof.se [213.80.101.20]) by mx2-reinject (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63ABD52D1; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:40:55 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at bahnhof.se (MF4) Received: from mf4.bahnhof.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mf4.bahnhof.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kdQQYNAbfP1e; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:40:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from exodia.localdomain (h-235-102.a149.priv.bahnhof.se [85.24.235.102]) by mf4.bahnhof.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FAFE4345B; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:40:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from chopper.vpn.verona.se (unknown [192.168.201.14]) by exodia.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEC04E00A4; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:40:28 +0100 (CET) From: joakim@verona.se To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: <87sjjv5moq.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:48:05 -0500") References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjjv5moq.fsf@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:40:27 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-Received-From: 213.80.101.12 Cc: tzz@lifelogs.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:40:56 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:00:49 +0100 Juanma Barranquero w= rote:=20 > > JB> 2012/1/4 Ted Zlatanov : >>> I am puzzled by this. =A0Why is it wrong to share the GnuTLS DLL? >>>=20 >>> If you and Eli and other W32 experts say a standalone self-updating >>> installer that drops a shared GnuTLS DLL in a common area is a bad idea, > > JB> I think is a good idea. Fortunately, we don't have to discuss it, > JB> because =D3scar "won't start discussing it" ;-) > > I'd like to discuss it with anyone willing. Joakim offered to help with > the installer and I can probably follow a build recipe to make the DLLs, > so practically it seems like we could do this. I just want to make sure > I don't find out in a few days or weeks that the installer approach is > flawed for some obscure W32 reason, which =D3scar sort of implied. > > On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:10:23 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote:=20 > > EZ> Maybe then this thread will become anything but hand-waving. > > I think it makes sense to discuss approaches--I had not even thought of > the GnuTLS installer approach until we had this conversation. Rushing > into development can be fun, but can also hide good ideas. Here is my advice based on some commercial installers I worked on. - use NSIS to install all binaries. Keep all binaries isolated from everything else, so no fiddling in system directories unless it in absolutely necessary in which case you should abandon all hope and carry on to the bitter end. - NSIS is really a tiny quirky Forth language so you can do a lot of stuff, including downloading updates, patching, etc. but keep it simple. - NSIS won't produce the standard MSI installers(not last time I looked anyway) but this is just as well since MSI installers are not what they are advertised to be - You can install all of Emacs with a NSIS installer, and distribute further update NSIS installers for particular components through ELPA. Don't underestimate the number of ways a windows installer can fuck up. If I were to do this I would make a build bot that produced daily binaries of the installer of a complete Emacs installation including the dll files. I would not bother with partial updating of particular dll:s at this time. Later, I would implement libffi support in Emacs, by including Guile as an Emacs dependency. Then we could have uniform soft dll support, and get a step on the way on including Guile in the Emacs core. But I digress. > > Ted > --=20 Joakim Verona From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 00:43:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rig6Z-0007vI-Tq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig6X-0007vA-M2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig6V-0006NW-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:40523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig6V-0006NS-IB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:07 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rig6U-00015S-Ks; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:06 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Dave Abrahams In-reply-to: (message from Dave Abrahams on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:34:25 -0500) Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:43:10 -0000 > From: Dave Abrahams > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:34:25 -0500 > > Is it not possible to have thorougness and high quality with more > frequent releases of smaller scope? It is, with more resources than we currently have. > Maybe the problem (if there is one) is that trunk is allowed to > drift too far from a releasable state. You cannot control that drift without a test suite with decent coverage. We don't have that yet. We don't even have a concerted effort to get there, AFAIK. Volunteers are welcome, as always. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 01:13:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riga5-0002LI-Vf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:13:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48923) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riga2-0002LC-GR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:13:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riga0-0002Vt-MV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:13:38 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:62027) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riga0-0002NA-Dr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:13:36 -0500 Received: by werf1 with SMTP id f1so155841wer.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:13:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zT24JPubx9jeUw1IrcKk/als8ZZDnDyefTaR1kyf98E=; b=rR6BQJyWNWKfBESzfBBbQuIBxKcEyTwfFXCg/2/ZyOw/XXiJoe4/lithov49izc3Eo BhcmpteaTQkEIbqGtgH1WT6RgiosgA+Y8Yj3iuNwOc+VjEdZs4sE43NwwI3w4ThH7Hxx 0zZCca4J/4tvZXYd07wFnpWQUwTOlOHeYat6A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.131.76 with SMTP id l54mr324436wei.34.1325744013651; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.170.138 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 22:13:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:13:33 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: emacs user To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= , Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:13:39 -0000 On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:44 PM, emacs user wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:39 AM, Stefan Monnier > >> The GC stats you posted indicate that the GC knows of about 27MB of data >> (10MB of which is actually unused but can't be returned to malloc due to >> fragmentation) which doesn't account for the 214MB you mention. =A0So it >> looks like that data is held by the C code. >> >> Of course, I don't know what the 214MB represent, if it is resident set >> size, then there really seems to be a leak, whereas if it's the total >> virtual size, it may also be an artifact of various other things. >> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Stefan > > here is something which I am hoping is reproducible by others: > download > http://emacsforosx.com/emacs-builds/Emacs-2011-12-23-universal-10.6.8.dmg > save to desktop. > > start emacs: > $ ~/Desktop/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -Q& > > create a file that contains the following line many times > asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asd= f > $ wc t : =A0687456 10311840 52246656 t > $ ls -l t: -rw------- =A01 x =A0staff =A052246656 Dec 23 05:08 t > > edit it using the above emacs. > kill all buffers, do M-x garbage-collect > > look at the process: > > =A0$ ps -vefl | head -1 > =A0PID STAT =A0 =A0 =A0TIME =A0SL =A0RE PAGEIN =A0 =A0 =A0VSZ =A0 =A0RSS = =A0 LIM =A0 =A0 TSIZ > %CPU %MEM COMMAND =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0UID =A0PPID =A0 C STIME =A0 TTY = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 F > PRI NI WCHAN =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ADDR > > before editing the file: > $ ps -vefl | grep 62764 > 62764 S =A0 =A0 =A00:00.78 =A0 0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A00 =A02571020 =A030852 = =A0 =A0 - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A00 > 0.3 =A00.7 /Users/xxx/Deskt =A0 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 =A0 =A0 =A0400= 6 > 49 =A00 - =A0 =A0 =A0ffffff8012762000 > > after editing it, killing the buffer, and doing M-x garbage-collect > =A0$ ps -vefl | grep 62764 > 62764 S =A0 =A0 =A00:01.85 =A0 0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A00 =A02625752 =A083036 = =A0 =A0 - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A00 > 0.6 =A02.0 /Users/xxx/Deskt =A0 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 =A0 =A0 =A0400= 6 > 48 =A00 - =A0 =A0 =A0ffffff8012762000 > > I am running on Lion, Macbook Air. =A0does this help? just in case this is helpful, I see the same increase in RSS using emacs 23.3 too, but not under linux. is this a problem, or is this increase in RSS normal? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 01:34:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiguD-0004WF-JE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47112) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiguA-0004W4-3d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rigu8-0005ZN-IR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41418) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rigu8-0005ZG-D6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:24 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rigu5-0004nQ-Il; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:34:21 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87pqezqeph.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:34:50 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83k457p3fg.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqezqeph.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:34:27 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:34:50 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > You are describing a situation that existed on Windows 9X, it no > > longer exists on modern machines. DLLs are either versioned in their > > names or use the SxS mechanism. > > Before putting too much hope into SxS I encourage you to read the > wikipedia page about it that you linked on a previous post. Believe me, I have. With today's PC ("on the one hand .... but on the other hand") stance, you can no longer have articles with definitive opinions. Articles need to be "balanced", so they will dig any minor problem to show "objectivity". Building evidence on that is silly. All I can say that "it works for me" on no less than 4 different XP systems used for 4 different purposes, for 7 years, with not a single problem that I can remember. > > Take the GnuTLS example: the previous DLL of version 2.x was named > > libgnutls-26.dll, while the new 3.x one is libgnutls-28.dll. > > The 3.x version is named -28 ? Yes. The number comes from the build. GnuTLS has some weird scheme for numbering the releases, take a look at their configure script. But that's not really relevant here. > > Use your friendly depends.exe program, and you will see that programs > > that depend on one of them (were linked with its import library) will > > refuse to load the other. The same is true of libintl, libiconv, and > > all the other libraries many Windows ports of GNU software need. > > Appending a number to a name doesn't solve the problem. It does solve most of it, because programs look only for DLLs they were linked against. > A simple experiment: put a libgnutls-26.dll on the system32 > directory. It is shared, right? Now install cygwin or msys, or any of > multiple standalone applications which are cygwin-based, and put its > binary directory before system32 on PATH. See it? People who install both MinGW and MSYS/Cygwin on the same system have a lot of rope to hang themselves, if they act stupidly. Putting a non-system DLL in system32 is one such stupid act; having MSYS on your PATH is another. MSYS installer has an option to stay away of PATH (I think it's the default); if you read the installation instructions carefully during installation, you won't get into this trouble. I know, because I have MSYS installed on one of my machines, and have no trouble at all, although the amount of overlap in DLLs is considerable. In addition, MSYS names most (if not all) of its DLLs differently, msys-FOO-NN.dll, which also alleviates this problem. Finally, for the umpteenth time: the default should be to put the DLL where emacs.exe lives. Putting it elsewhere is a bonus option for experts. So I have no idea why you keep hitting on this subject; it's a side track, as far as getting GnuTLS and its updates to Emacs is concerned. > Another experiment: build an application such as Emacs with VC++ 6 or > MinGW with the default settings. Now make it to use a dll (GnuTLS, an > image library...) compiled with a modern release of VS. Unless such > library follows a very strict policy about resource handling (and > possibly other aspects) you are asking for problems. These problems are theoretical, we never heard about them here. dynamic-library-alist is carefully constructed to accept only names of DLLs that we know are safe, which solves at least part of the potential for trouble. And again, if someone mixes MinGW with MSVC, they are in trouble already and need a lot of discipline to avoid shooting themselves in the foot. We were talking about the majority of the users, but your examples are all from the expert land. I think it's not a coincidence: there simply are no such problems in the vast majority of installations nowadays, in practice. > Think on a user that discovers that sending mail with Emacs just works > because some other package installed GnuTLS on some directory listed on > PATH. Time later he decides to uninstall the application and afterwards > tries to send an e-mail, just to notice to his dismay that it doesn't > work anymore. Confusing, isn't it? It isn't confusing if Emacs displays a clear error message. Again, this use case is for experts; by default the DLL should be with emacs.exe. Experts will know how to avoid that; most uninstallers ask for an explicit permission to remove DLLs from public directories, and experts know better than blindly clicking OK. > > Please stop spreading this FUD, you are tripping people like Ted who > > don't know better into wrong conclusions based on what hurt you (and > > me) several years ago. THERE'S NO SUCH PROBLEM ANYMORE! > > Please stop using inflamatory language and offensive assertions. Sorry, I cannot watch indifferently as people are talked into wrong conclusions based on information that is several years obsolete. It is ridiculous to base design decision for a _future_ feature on problems that last happened on Windows 2000, a system whose use today is marginal at best. Windows XP was released in 2001, and is already obsolete, so any version prior to it is definitely so. > I could say that your real-world experience distributing, installing > and supporting software across heterogenous environments looks quite > limited, but I'll rather suppose that you were very lucky so far. You can call 7 years of safe use on 4 different machines luck if you want. I call it discipline and following safe practices. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 01:41:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rih0q-0005Ei-AV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35652) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih0n-0005Ad-07 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih0l-0006MY-0H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:16 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41527) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih0k-0006MT-TZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:14 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih0k-00081O-M0; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:41:14 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:00:57 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:41:18 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:00:57 +0100 > > You can bet on it. At the beginning there was several versions of > MSVCRT.DLL floating around, some of them notoriously buggy. Of course, > everybody installed the dll on system32. The problem was partially fixed > by SxS, which essentially ensured that applications that didn't embed > manifests (and hence didn't required a specific version of the dll) used > the default, "safe" one provided by MS with the OS. That started with > Windows XP, although it doesn't protect you from inadvertently picking a > dll inside a directory that comes first on PATH. With Windows 2000, I > had to face one of the more frustrating bugs on my career: a few users > reported crashes, freezes and data corruption (on a DB app!). It took me > months to discover the problem for one of the users: a mass storage > device driver and accompanying backup utility installed their own > custom-modified MSVCRT.DLL on system32, which somehow caused my app to > freeze when certain gui action was performed. They didn't bothered to > use a different version string or id on the resources of the library, so > it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. Then I started to put my > runtime dlls on the same directory as the rest of my binaries, and the > problems of those users disappeared. Most of them haven't that storage > device. The issue costed me a several hundred work hours, mostly trying > to desperately find bugs inside my application. Conclusions based on experiences from Windows 2000 should be tossed as irrelevant nowadays. Citing this is a good "war story", but has no bearing on design decisions for future features. In addition, latest GnuTLS cannot be compiled with MinGW in a way that will run on anything older than XP anyway. (Maybe some non-trivial tweaking could overcome that, but I didn't bother, and if Nikos built the stock distribution, which is what I glean from his script, then his binaries have the same limitation.) So let's forget about Windows 2000; it's irrelevant for this thread, if not for any other thread. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 01:44:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rih3s-0005cQ-LY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38834) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih3p-0005cJ-TU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih3o-0006rv-TX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41582) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih3o-0006rq-Qk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:24 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih3o-0001YA-Jj; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:44:24 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87hb0bqcod.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:42 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87ipktag2e.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwfxtxuz.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83r4zfpcfv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5tnqmts.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83ipkrp34o.fsf@gnu.org> <87hb0bqcod.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:44:27 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:18:42 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > [snip] > > >> Depending on how Emacs was installed, that would require elevated > >> privileges, something ELPA can not ask for, AFAIK. > > > > FUD. Emacs is not installed by corporate policies on Windows, so this > > won't happen except in very rare cases. > > Have you used MS Windows Vista or Seven lately? If you install Emacs on > "Program Files" Emacs itself does not have write rights to its own > directory (actually, sometimes the OS can fool the app into believing > that it is creating or changing files there, but in reality it is > diverting the operation to somewhere else. Look for "File and Registry > Virtualization" for further info). You must fidle with directory > permissions (that is, shutting down a security measure) for Emacs, or > the user in front of the computer, to alter its contents without > escalating privileges. Irrelevant: we are talking about the same user who already installed Emacs on that system, so that user will have already solved this "problem" using one of the few available solutions, be it privilege elevation, disabling UAC altogether, installing Emacs not in "Program Files", or something else. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 01:45:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rih59-00061U-UV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39095) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih56-0005zv-TY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih56-00074o-1r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:44 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41619) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih56-00074k-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:44 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rih55-00021Y-Pr; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:45:43 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes In-reply-to: <87d3ayrjrk.fsf@wanadoo.es> (message from =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93sca?= =?utf-8?Q?r?= Fuentes on Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:15 +0100) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87d3ayrjrk.fsf@wanadoo.es> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:45:46 -0000 > From: Óscar Fuentes > Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:00:15 +0100 > > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 00:00, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > > > >> It took me > >> months to discover the problem for one of the users: a mass storage > >> device driver and accompanying backup utility installed their own > >> custom-modified MSVCRT.DLL on system32, which somehow caused my app to > >> freeze when certain gui action was performed. They didn't bothered to > >> use a different version string or id on the resources of the library, so > >> it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. > > > > That just means that someone should be hit in the head with a printed > > copy of the full MSDN site. Repeatedly. > > It *also* means that depending on unknown third parties is asking for > trouble. If we put a DLL on ELPA or some other place and recommend it, it is no longer "unknown". The recommendation means someone has tested the DLL and found it compatible with Emacs and free of nuisances. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 02:05:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RihOA-00089N-Ms for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:05:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44830) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RihO8-00087h-95 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:05:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RihO3-0001Mi-I7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:05:24 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:50706) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RihNv-0001JK-M6; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:05:11 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=[192.168.1.2]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RihNn-0002ux-Mf; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:05:03 -0800 Message-ID: <4F054B98.6070203@dancol.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:04:56 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigB283E8F2E9CEAB7905D83FED" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?w5NzY2FyIEZ1ZW50ZXM=?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:05:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigB283E8F2E9CEAB7905D83FED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/4/12 10:41 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: =C3=93scar Fuentes >> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:00:57 +0100 >> >> it reported itself as one of the "good" dlls. Then I started to put my= >> runtime dlls on the same directory as the rest of my binaries, and the= >> problems of those users disappeared. Most of them haven't that storage= >> device. The issue costed me a several hundred work hours, mostly tryin= g >> to desperately find bugs inside my application. >=20 > Conclusions based on experiences from Windows 2000 should be tossed as > irrelevant nowadays. Citing this is a good "war story", but has no > bearing on design decisions for future features. It underscores a general principle: ship applications as self-contained units that don't try to muck with the rest of the system. The only reason doing otherwise remotely feasible on Unixish systems it the presence of package managers. On systems without centralized package management, like Windows and OS X, shipping self-contained packages is the only sane thing to do. Microsoft even added COM features ("registration-free COM") to make this approach easier. With disks being as large as they are now, it makes no sense to try to optimize for some resource sharing when you can just stick DLLs alongside other downloaded files in perfect safety. > In addition, latest GnuTLS cannot be compiled with MinGW in a way that > will run on anything older than XP anyway. (Maybe some non-trivial > tweaking could overcome that, but I didn't bother, and if Nikos built > the stock distribution, which is what I glean from his script, then > his binaries have the same limitation.) >=20 > So let's forget about Windows 2000; it's irrelevant for this thread, > if not for any other thread. So we can, in fact, ditch ANSI support and use UNICODE everywhere? --------------enigB283E8F2E9CEAB7905D83FED Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8FS54ACgkQ17c2LVA10Vs4agCgxMM8a3iue1eZSiTgcFzCBIMm XCwAn0l38yu3hnQcnzjQxgAXtdtGxYfl =dkrU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigB283E8F2E9CEAB7905D83FED-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 02:31:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rihn8-0002RE-EJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:31:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38665) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rihn4-0002Mk-Rj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:31:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rihn3-0004hr-Np for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:31:10 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:37364) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rihn3-0004hh-Gg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 02:31:09 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7917B9F9C for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:31:07 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 14088 invoked by uid 89); 5 Jan 2012 07:30:04 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 5 Jan 2012 07:30:04 -0000 Received: from [10.225.16.26] (unknown [193.45.43.33]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A573B7FA058; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:31:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F0551B9.5080305@swipnet.se> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:31:05 +0100 From: "Jan D." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: nsterm.m warnings References: <327FD938-2CED-4F59-8836-065EA3B97AE7@swipnet.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:31:12 -0000 Carsten Mattner skrev 2012-01-05 00:49: > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Jan Dj=E4rv wrote: >> >> 4 jan 2012 kl. 18:53 skrev Carsten Mattner: >> >>> I think at least one of the following or ideally both should be fixed= . >>> >>> nsterm.m: In function =91-[EmacsView conversationIdentifier]=92: >>> nsterm.m:5053: warning: conflicting types for =91-(long >>> int)conversationIdentifier=92 >>> /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Headers/NSInputManager.h:= 25: >>> warning: previous declaration of =91-(NSInteger)conversationIdentifie= r=92 >> >> What do you mean by "both"? This is only one warning. > > It's the same cause, but two warning messages. > You could logically group them to one, yes. I see it as one warning message. There are two "warning:" in there, but=20 they only make sense together. > >> It has no practical importance, and only occurs if you build a 32-bit >> executable, which is rare on OSX. > > If it's safe to ignore in a 32-bit build, ok. > Strictly speaking the code is incorrect, isn't it? The code relies on the fact that the compiler can convert a long to an=20 int on a 32-bit build. In principle such a conversion can truncate the=20 value. But in this case it does not matter, as long as the value is=20 unique within the application (Emacs). As the build is 32-bit, the=20 pointer converted to long is 32-bit to start with. That long is then=20 converted to an int, so there is no truncation. But it is bad style to change interfaces like this, I'll fix it shortly.=20 I guess it was long at some point in time, and then got changed to=20 NSInteger. Jan D. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 04:30:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rijeu-0000mJ-0i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:30:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39529) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rijem-0000jU-RV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:30:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rijeh-00004q-6n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:30:44 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:52260) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rijec-0008W2-NJ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:30:34 -0500 Received: by werf1 with SMTP id f1so270139wer.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:30:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=6ri/8YpnEPvGK2zQDLaBNWtR8A5tzd4svbQOwobNu6s=; b=m1WfehhBhwH62DhYpABesioMC/MNo4/Z5xrZCOrkDNDh9BVda0jMXFgzY4MYcACces fwg7vbKXBE6d4fjJLo9JsFfTnUHmRM7hAf7+gjvOvF/tSb/4TIeuHunxcas9bEh0GTWn EmKbPJ2WjK8v8dG99ZJbfdU2yx7saIGC2qPU0= Received: by 10.216.138.73 with SMTP id z51mr563396wei.55.1325755833780; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (fon75-1-78-192-119-5.fbxo.proxad.net. [78.192.119.5]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eu3sm31174611wib.6.2012.01.05.01.30.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:30:32 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CE75913E30; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 10:31:41 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Periodical releases In-Reply-To: <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:58:19 +0800") References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:31:41 +0100 Message-ID: <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 Cc: Dave Abrahams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:30:50 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > Frankly, I'm not convinced there's any problem. I can see two problems: 1) merging Org into Emacs trunk is a bit painful. I'm still looking for a good workflow -- given the fact that Org is using git and Emacs is using bzr. Any concret suggestion here is welcome. I didn't grok Stefan's last suggestion. 2) I will probably release Org 8.0 before the end of the feature freeze (say march or april). Not having it in Emacs 24.1 is not such a big deal, agreed, but it creates a situation where people often install Org on top of the one that comes with Emacs, which doesn't feel optimal and leads to many questions, because of conflicting installs. Both are separate, and I can try to take care of (1) myself. As for (2), let me refine my suggestion: what about a main feature freeze for core functionalities and another one for big modules like Org, Gnus, etc.? The feature freeze for those module could happen for a *limited* and *known* period of time -- say 2 months before the Emacs release date. > Emacs 23.3 was released > less than one year ago, and we are already well into the pretest for > 24.1. Doing considerably better would require resources we don't have. > Note that all those projects that are being held up as models for their > periodic release systems have people working on them full time! Yes. It should also be noted that things are getting at a very good pace since you and Stefan took over maintainership, I guess everyone acknowledges it. -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 05:11:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RikIU-0004BN-A0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:11:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43161) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RikIN-00048U-68 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:11:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RikIJ-0006xQ-43 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:11:39 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60209) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RikII-0006xI-PI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:11:35 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RikIG-000615-Lu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:11:32 +0100 Received: from 123.114.37.220 ([123.114.37.220]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:11:32 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.37.220 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:11:32 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:11:06 +0800 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.37.220 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUzRVhbQj4eZqO6SjnT eWpxnMetm5b6/PmidmqrAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1F B9cBBwMLBfKABCMAAAFoSURBVCjPtZI9a8MwEIaFoc7aYDdelQMna0Em3tsSr0XUeE2Q6a22a+v+ fk8fSSBkbDUI6dHpfe9OEvRgiD+ApqKPJgJeB6iUUXWESjUe/ig38AJrhqqvaU2nTIXbNvOQ40fe qdry4kyGoVWsfCQalXpHnJGM01wjWdYbMlXNFdsZDO69m9aqNqxEJqTEgbM5OF7wlEfIoll1Ked4 LbM5X2EdILLokEdmI8z7g5cKED0cuTC930TYhy7ZDekkXVGw/L60TguJePPxcJF48lpsSUWEA/Ju jGFNgJOXc4Hz7TmAdBeu5Ve4AEjOi2/2jfd3cAJZ+IbNrvdjgBZY01b+HTuG3cLws6BJZqVOj/pp T0OqVwx3rFq+QmJwx3loK5JSLEhDIt62+mtC2C+SrAUxEbV6C6v2BRbd6pILBKFpepKZJHgGgrKF sptSUUoczpwg2pQ7ZH1tgs0ou/917mzz6Cs2//C978cv5l07L02orIEAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:i4lUVvKSGs59OMj8KQfjHw6uhF0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:11:44 -0000 On 2012-01-05 17:31 +0800, Bastien wrote: > 2) I will probably release Org 8.0 before the end of the feature freeze > (say march or april). Not having it in Emacs 24.1 is not such a big > deal, agreed, but it creates a situation where people often install > Org on top of the one that comes with Emacs, which doesn't feel > optimal and leads to many questions, because of conflicting installs. > > Both are separate, and I can try to take care of (1) myself. I think in future it may be desirable to make more use of the packaging system now that we have one. It is like many of those GNU/Linux distributions. The core developers/maintainers are concerned with the core packages/functionality (it is better use of their time since they usually have better insight of the project) and the rest can be taken care by community members. For example the value of including org-mode in the source tree is quite little. If it is distributed with the packing system people can receive more timely bug fixes free of any constraint of the release cycle. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:01:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ril4Q-0004L6-Ag for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:01:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56073) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ril4J-0004Iz-Tj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:01:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ril4D-0007QD-KZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:01:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:45368) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ril4D-0007Q9-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:01:05 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-44-158.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.44.158]:51172 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ril48-00059g-8X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:01:01 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Hash functions for custom-safe-themes Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:00:52 +0800 Message-ID: <87mxa2ct23.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:01:16 -0000 When we added custom-safe-themes about a year ago, we used SHA1 for hashing, just because that was conveniently implemented by `sha1.el'. Several months later, we got built-in SHA256 hashing on all platforms thanks to Gnulib and the secure-hash primitive. For future proofing, maybe it would be wise to switch to SHA256 for custom-safe-themes, before the release. Any thoughts? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:21:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RilOM-0000xq-7f for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:21:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46308) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilOD-0000uM-JJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:21:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilOC-000278-Gf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:21:45 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:43830) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilOC-000270-9R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:21:44 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so543669obc.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:21:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vFtvlK8vTUSHsU71JFo3tBbOpz3EKW7q3LKbmDP1ym4=; b=SGit2C+QcX+pDzTo8+VtjK0yc09cp1ToGt6B0rK7MgAi4fb0YNHh/ox+mIcu39bk0I s7qLcrPvFVvT6E8pzJiWOizEz1oTHH3eSSM8CYpWHrWW3S6qdbtrI9R2eFBzma1EkPyy Z/I4jsHq07pd4Q64frwWtDnxdqHUpRd6lYzPk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.85.199 with SMTP id j7mr2394046igz.25.1325762503438; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:21:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F0551B9.5080305@swipnet.se> References: <327FD938-2CED-4F59-8836-065EA3B97AE7@swipnet.se> <4F0551B9.5080305@swipnet.se> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:21:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: nsterm.m warnings From: Carsten Mattner To: "Jan D." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:21:51 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Jan D. wrote: > The code relies on the fact that the compiler can convert a long to an in= t > on a 32-bit build. =A0In principle such a conversion can truncate the val= ue. > =A0But in this case it does not matter, as long as the value is unique wi= thin > the application (Emacs). =A0As the build is 32-bit, the pointer converted= to > long is 32-bit to start with. =A0That long is then converted to an int, s= o > there is no truncation. > > But it is bad style to change interfaces like this, I'll fix it shortly. = =A0I > guess it was long at some point in time, and then got changed to NSIntege= r. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:28:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RilUv-0001Ve-RE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:28:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52364) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilUp-0001V9-6J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:28:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilUo-00030I-4w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:28:35 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:61836) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilUk-0002zx-Tq; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:28:31 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so970414iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:28:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EXchwSebulVrxtcaWVt9v/0QG4EZdqgBRlR2uO6shKc=; b=lkcuUkGU9N24h/nLr5snPB7wV1mcSowqCqyk8YppIdOhGmIpqOB5FPTn6KtLrILeA7 e11R11zr2yoJfVqeYeoBxdjXrCUTsJtQ1bsdIZGbOjmmHhnkvney6n1gIJxk8wRbih2E wL2CUvjigr0SlsLbdxvgSeMQLn04uIo3XGt+Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr1956975igc.29.1325762910106; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:28:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:28:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Bastien Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Dave Abrahams , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:28:40 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Bastien wrote: > 2) I will probably release Org 8.0 before the end of the feature freeze > =A0 (say march or april). =A0Not having it in Emacs 24.1 is not such a bi= g > =A0 deal, agreed, but it creates a situation where people often install > =A0 Org on top of the one that comes with Emacs, which doesn't feel > =A0 optimal and leads to many questions, because of conflicting installs. Out of curiosity. If I have 24.1 with Org 7.x and to use Org latest I put that in ~/.emacs.d/, is there some potential ambiguity/conflict/version-clash/mixup going on if I add that local dir to the load path? Do I have to use some unknown-to-me (prepend-to-load-path path)? I know that Vim has ~/.vim/* first in the path list. What's it for Emacs? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:31:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RilY6-000209-4s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:31:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52671) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilXy-000200-Ds for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:31:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilXs-0003iH-Fa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:31:50 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:62594) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilXs-0003iB-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:31:44 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so557305obc.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:31:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n7li3adHB5DUewXcNFk9nApWuGQJM4mlNt8qBig7V9A=; b=UStXxH+ShA6GlAry2cJoRSFORuSOnIO/w5Xu1AHnHVREv4sgkn6/2inzu0UTlrkEtE 1gPKapnglWBouTrUvbD0K2a+TrhtL21WCTCiq8oYgYWKI61AHCpnWy6jdTUqg4CYpNZs 15bfFdA53/d8ojaSWO6PSLvecdZpR3DkS7xVc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.85.199 with SMTP id j7mr2445249igz.25.1325763103737; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:31:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:31:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Leo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:31:56 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Leo wrote: > On 2012-01-05 17:31 +0800, Bastien wrote: >> 2) I will probably release Org 8.0 before the end of the feature freeze >> =A0 =A0(say march or april). =A0Not having it in Emacs 24.1 is not such = a big >> =A0 =A0deal, agreed, but it creates a situation where people often insta= ll >> =A0 =A0Org on top of the one that comes with Emacs, which doesn't feel >> =A0 =A0optimal and leads to many questions, because of conflicting insta= lls. >> >> Both are separate, and I can try to take care of (1) myself. > > I think in future it may be desirable to make more use of the packaging > system now that we have one. It is like many of those GNU/Linux > distributions. The core developers/maintainers are concerned with the > core packages/functionality (it is better use of their time since they > usually have better insight of the project) and the rest can be taken > care by community members. For example the value of including org-mode > in the source tree is quite little. If it is distributed with the > packing system people can receive more timely bug fixes free of any > constraint of the release cycle. I second that. Cedet, Gnus, Org, themes (hash verification issues?)... From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:33:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RilZe-0003RX-U7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:33:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilZX-0003OE-Pl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:33:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilZT-0003zZ-GG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:33:27 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:37499) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RilZR-0003yq-32; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:33:21 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so977824iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:33:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bkGyTxE5xvEaD9jkTXJXBd9v8tSggpHzfYqFAiE98Ww=; b=uoiEqRqu8muQgxoNBv1Q0os91NPL4Ox+jKtCdGw86tJSvPMPpII+tKcnHbQOU0CK/I K3N+XFofNMM7JC2Vc6N7eP1CLntaxFhpvG4yLD493dpQD36GdzlGv3tdAsCbEkcAcV72 UoW8UQvMTlnDh+gUH69NcYLD+a3pPVUm0kvK4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr1641664icw.36.1325763200459; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:33:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:33:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Periodical releases From: Carsten Mattner To: Bastien Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Dave Abrahams , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:33:33 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Bastien wrote: > Yes. =A0It should also be noted that things are getting at a very good > pace since you and Stefan took over maintainership, I guess everyone > acknowledges it. Definitely, thanks to the new maintainers. You guys do a great job! From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:37:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rildi-0005DB-Un for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:37:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46895) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rildf-0004zh-Jc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:37:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RildZ-0004z4-M3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:37:43 -0500 Received: from 0x573f3a32.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1113.hcnqu1.customer.tele.dk ([87.63.58.50]:57736 helo=Christians-MacBook-Air.local) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RildZ-0004ys-Fe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:37:37 -0500 Received: by Christians-MacBook-Air.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A10C5675E25; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:09:00 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Lynbech To: Jan =?utf-8?Q?Dj=C3=A4rv?= Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:08:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: ("Jan \=\?utf-8\?Q\?Dj\=C3\=A4rv\=22's\?\= message of "Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:36:26 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 87.63.58.50 Cc: Leo , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:37:44 -0000 >>>>> "Jan" =3D=3D Jan Dj=C3=A4rv writes: Jan> YMMV. I use Emacs every day on OSX and it is no different from using Jan> Emacs on X in my experience. But I don't use Gnus or other packages Jan> that people seems to have problems with. I use Emacs on OSX everyday too, and I use gnus as my one and only way to read mail, and it works quite well for me (except I am experiencing some issues with w3m after upgrading my laptop to Lion). This is emacs24 using the trunk version and upstream gnus. ------------------------+--------------------------------------------------= --- Christian Lynbech | christian #\@ defun #\. dk ------------------------+--------------------------------------------------= --- Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manu= al. - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Peton= ic) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 06:58:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RilyE-0001Sr-8o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52759) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rily6-0001RD-Ee for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rily2-0000Ks-1x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46205) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rily2-0000Ki-0Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:46 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rily1-0006CB-8i; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:58:45 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Daniel Colascione In-reply-to: <4F054B98.6070203@dancol.org> (message from Daniel Colascione on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:04:56 -0800) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87lipnqdhy.fsf@wanadoo.es> <4F054B98.6070203@dancol.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:58:56 -0000 > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:04:56 -0800 > From: Daniel Colascione > CC: Óscar Fuentes , > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > Conclusions based on experiences from Windows 2000 should be tossed as > > irrelevant nowadays. Citing this is a good "war story", but has no > > bearing on design decisions for future features. > > It underscores a general principle: ship applications as > self-contained units that don't try to muck with the rest of the > system. I agree. > > So let's forget about Windows 2000; it's irrelevant for this thread, > > if not for any other thread. > > So we can, in fact, ditch ANSI support and use UNICODE everywhere? Unicode is not about Windows 2000; and I did say "for this thread". From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 07:20:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RimIw-0006R9-PM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:20:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46915) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RimIq-0006Qc-Kl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:20:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RimIk-0004V7-OJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:20:16 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:59613) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RimId-0004Qb-9V; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:20:03 -0500 Received: by qabg40 with SMTP id g40so384595qab.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.185.203 with SMTP id cp11mr2441972qab.93.1325766002355; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ev2sm67119193qab.15.2012.01.05.04.20.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 30A971DC7EBF; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 07:20:05 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:20:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:43:06 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:20:20 -0000 on Thu Jan 05 2012, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Maybe the problem (if there is one) is that trunk is allowed to >> drift too far from a releasable state. > > You cannot control that drift without a test suite with decent > coverage. Excellent point. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 07:56:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rims7-0000ck-GI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:56:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rims5-0000bu-Jh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:56:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rims4-0002Xx-Km for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:56:41 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:42549) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rims4-0002Xi-FM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:56:40 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so1100429iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:56:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=fxc6ojlfB6shAJrxI0rp8Q6OaQ3xpMYOHTi7dRd4qEs=; b=P2hyr7rTxKUqLwmQM85qt+pC/x1E8O9xF3uAsthVDQk7dFAgX/sZ6y+svkRq2IU/zW b4dJQd6XJP0zO7SH8AhNdwJSS13rTbJyzn9kGJVFvUyUcaZrpOQCeBwupiFZLKlWUHBD 2NcmF04+Kh0cJCqJqQeLedQoFgVnwEOf/QOFE= Received: by 10.50.46.166 with SMTP id w6mr2879174igm.6.1325768199185; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from JAMBU-NETBOOK ([115.242.161.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gh9sm123415681igb.3.2012.01.05.04.56.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:56:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jambunathan K To: Leo Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:26:18 +0530 In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:11:06 +0800") Message-ID: <81ipkqnw99.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:56:42 -0000 > 1 For example the value of including org-mode in the source tree is > quite little. If it is distributed with the packing system people can > receive more timely bug fixes free of any constraint of the release > cycle. Org's daily builds are part of GNU ELPA for atleast around an year now. > Leo -- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 08:21:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RinGT-0001hF-01 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:21:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60511) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinGO-0001h9-47 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:21:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinGI-0007Tk-1Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:21:47 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinGH-0007TK-Sg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:21:42 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RinGG-0007CO-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:21:40 +0100 Received: from 123.114.37.220 ([123.114.37.220]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:21:40 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.37.220 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:21:40 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Hash functions for custom-safe-themes Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:21:25 +0800 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <87mxa2ct23.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.37.220 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9743ptOXZrt1QnPUjGZTCiruWOU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:21:51 -0000 On 2012-01-05 19:00 +0800, Chong Yidong wrote: > Several months later, we got built-in SHA256 hashing on all platforms > thanks to Gnulib and the secure-hash primitive. This is not related to your question. I have two suggestions: 1. A secure-hash-command that user can invoke to get the hash of a buffer 2. Bind `: h' to a new command dired-secure-hash, that user can invoke to get the hash of a file in dired These new additions are small but quite handy. Do you think we can do it for 24.1? Thanks. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 08:26:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RinKU-0002q1-Vr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:26:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49343) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinKP-0002jt-9U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinKN-0008GE-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:47816) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinKN-0008GA-Nl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:55 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinKN-0007xG-6L; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:55 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Dave Abrahams In-reply-to: (message from Dave Abrahams on Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:24 -0500) Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:25:59 -0000 > From: Dave Abrahams > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:24 -0500 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > For what it's worth, Boost has no full-time people, and it releases four > times yearly. How tightly are the various libraries in Boost connected? I.e., if one of them is broken, how many others will become broken as result? Core features in Emacs are likely to break many different and unrelated features. Emacs is a program, not a library. The "People" page of the Boost site shows 48 developers. How intensely does each one of them work on Boost? For that matter, how many hours do you personally spend on Boost weekly, if I may ask? I would be surprised if Emacs had more than 10 to 15 active maintainers at any given time. I don't know how many hours others spend, but I can only devote about maybe 5 hours or less each week. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 08:41:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RinZK-0006fX-5h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:41:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinZE-0006Na-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:41:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinZ9-0002xG-03 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:41:16 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f48.google.com ([209.85.216.48]:61455) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinYy-0002tn-NJ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:41:00 -0500 Received: by qadc16 with SMTP id c16so397115qad.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.220.14 with SMTP id hw14mr2909175qab.42.1325770858877; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hv20sm115610082qab.22.2012.01.05.05.40.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 05:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1B1531DD3109; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:41:02 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:41:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:25:55 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.48 Cc: cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:41:21 -0000 on Thu Jan 05 2012, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Dave Abrahams >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:36:24 -0500 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> For what it's worth, Boost has no full-time people, and it releases four >> times yearly. > > How tightly are the various libraries in Boost connected? I.e., if > one of them is broken, how many others will become broken as result? Some are extremely loose and some have direct dependencies. But one thing we have had practically since the beginning is a fairly complete set of regression tests. Without that, I don't see how our pace of releases would be possible. > The "People" page of the Boost site shows 48 developers. How > intensely does each one of them work on Boost? I think Ohloh has the best information on this: http://www.ohloh.net/p/boost > For that matter, how many hours do you personally spend on Boost > weekly, if I may ask? I haven't had much time to do programming for Boost in the past few years. I'm not sure what the relevance is, though... > I would be surprised if Emacs had more than 10 to 15 active > maintainers at any given time. I don't know how many hours others > spend, but I can only devote about maybe 5 hours or less each week. Arguably, the more people contributing code, the harder the job of managing stable releases gets :-) -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 08:50:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiniJ-0000Ht-5x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57784) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiniC-0000Hh-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rini7-0005Bk-J3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:37956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rini7-0005Bg-6D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:27 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rini3-0003Ms-WC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:50:24 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:50:23 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:50:23 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:10 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 90 Message-ID: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Rb8jWVPe/ysl/CS9SzsvZiBzxEk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:50:38 -0000 On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:57 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> >> I think, to get this working, we need a list of critical ELPA packages >> that Emacs will check for updates on startup and alert the user to >> upgrade. By default that list should be empty on all platforms, except >> on W32 it will contain the "gnutls-w32" package. EZ> Again, why are we treating MS-Windows specially? Why shouldn't Emacs EZ> issue the same alert on GNU and Unix systems, if GnuTLS is found to be EZ> unavailable? The fact that several distributions have Emacs depend on EZ> GnuTLS does not mean all of them do or will, and let's not forget that EZ> even in the year 2012 users can build their own Emacs (without EZ> GnuTLS). You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for critical updates on startup, though? I would actually also like to bundle trusted certificates. The Diginotar compromise showed the need for managing the certs proactively, and we can't rely on what's on W32 systems. On other platforms we can let the distribution choose the right cert bundle. Right now, gnutls.el will take a list of trustfiles or default to /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt, which is hardly ideal for all platforms. On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:36:38 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> The moment the packages are accesible from the official site, there's JB> certain responsibilities. For example, to issue security upgrades as JB> fast as possible. ... JB> Responsibility and obligation are disjoint concepts. I don't mind the JB> load, but I hate accepting (not personally, but as a project) the JB> responsibility to do things, like compiling GnuTLS binaries and JB> distributing them, that are utterly disconnected from Emacs JB> development per se. The moment we do that, people will expect we also JB> provide up-to-date binaries for image libs, libxml2, d-bus, you name JB> it. I think the risk of providing out-of-date libxml2 or libxpm is much smaller than providing out-of-date GnuTLS. So while I understand your concern about this slippery slope, I think we can resist it, and regular releases can address the general need for updates. On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:56 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> I'm concerned about GnuTLS updates after the install. An ELPA package >> could do that, a simple DLL drop couldn't. EZ> That's true, but if we assume that an urgent need to upgrade GnuTLS EZ> will not be too frequent, we can update it with each release and in EZ> binaries of development snapshots. That would probably do 80% of the EZ> job, if not more. Unfortunately security issues and their fixes are inherently urgent and unpredictable (e.g. the Diginotar compromise). Note above about my desire to also provide cert bundles in this package, so it could do much more than a DLL drop. But if we go with Joakim's full installer idea, that would do the job better than package.el could. On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:40:27 +0100 joakim@verona.se wrote: j> If I were to do this I would make a build bot that produced daily j> binaries of the installer of a complete Emacs installation including the j> dll files. I would not bother with partial updating of particular dll:s j> at this time. If we tell the user to reinstall because GnuTLS is out of date, would that be a big burden? I guess that's a fourth option for distributing and updating GnuTLS, which could be combined with the ELPA package for notifications: 1) zipfile drop 2) ELPA package in the GNU ELPA archive with startup GnuTLS version check 3) GnuTLS standalone installer+updater 4) Emacs installer+updater Combining (4) and (2) seems most convenient for the users: they will have a single installer for all of Emacs (a convenience that goes beyond this thread), and they'll get notified on all platforms when GnuTLS is out of date. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 09:01:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RinsY-0003Jh-KP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:01:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46711) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinsR-0003JM-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:01:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinsN-0007GR-Ry for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:01:07 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50541) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RinsN-0007GG-Le for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:01:03 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RinsM-00080X-AE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:01:02 +0100 Received: from 123.114.37.220 ([123.114.37.220]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:01:02 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.37.220 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:01:02 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:00:46 +0800 Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> <81ipkqnw99.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.37.220 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUKDAg1NjRWV1V9fnyg op/DxcLk5uP8/voi63ReAAAACXBIWXMAAAWJAAAFiQFtaJ36AAAAB3RJTUUH1goZAgAz00bgXgAA AeVJREFUKM9lk0Fz2jAQhQXJD3CCO70CmcC1YMtcWyTZ14Bl69xats4N9r6/3zWQBlodNKNPu/s0 b1cCQFuZGpfVVh3vAvBJolIXRkapSuoRUtIdFyo1Y5xSdlAj7OtvD1XnXxmWRi+eWgcxyCed1lVV B1CrKyujMoi+eLA5kU1SsjoHlW+nQjTtFxk4MXgrOxvIqzoTZR8XgPaLl419zgsMaSGFPiUOZCIh thsx5Xy9NsK8Kwf/JoQgMxcVJ301HKkcSWaT0O7FY056J4U9xcYfnmVXG4801lW6lqwu2nKFZoHC HuzvaTVndZ+LaRQgZdthXw1cpynEkLEwyFHXk/aIxNQ6QeooJuzPMB+wn+D7JJNsiCcVA13/A3h/ xE9J+WidpAwoYNmRFwyvSRhNVtsdaAewzZZP5uw82QL9+tyNfocyP0McAzICUr5Mk9RdIjWasUNx aIIt6NK4ZtXIMdfMQt3nuMAyWbLI4DqZ4xPq/ag8jPond4XU/cLuOgw6XCFX/YCUfcDAMMH58fD4 G9kDchwfqVefkBwup2uZM+Q4WhJt5jN3AxXCsaS2yXEDuWgS8VOzW0gFjhEPmLyFMKBFaLb1HRwc DiaKwx0EeTMRYnYPQRW3PP4HApvlMv0PttX5v/D6Aws3IOSEwzmLAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:xQli8SHkGY+ZqH/7rfSYGixMw2o= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:01:13 -0000 On 2012-01-05 20:56 +0800, Jambunathan K wrote: >> 1 For example the value of including org-mode in the source tree is >> quite little. If it is distributed with the packing system people can >> receive more timely bug fixes free of any constraint of the release >> cycle. > > Org's daily builds are part of GNU ELPA for atleast around an year now. Point missed. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 09:14:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rio5J-0007f2-1x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57210) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rio5B-0007dA-NI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rio56-0001v6-4d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:48956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rio56-0001v0-1v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:12 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rio55-0007zg-Pb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:11 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:10 -0500) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:14:23 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:10 -0500 > > Do you agree with the general idea of checking for critical updates > on startup, though? I have nothing against it, provided that it's not a nuisance (e.g., I don't always want to go on-line when I start Emacs). > I would actually also like to bundle trusted certificates. Where should they be gotten and how to integrate them with GnuTLS? > Right now, gnutls.el will take a list of trustfiles or default to > /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt, which is hardly ideal for all > platforms. That directory most probably won't exist on Windows. > If we tell the user to reinstall because GnuTLS is out of date, would > that be a big burden? It could be, since Emacs is a large distribution, and GnuTLS libraries are much smaller in comparison. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 09:19:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RioAG-0001sW-Hv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:19:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47439) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioAA-0001sN-MF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:19:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioA3-0002mp-QP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:19:26 -0500 Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com ([74.208.5.67]:43080) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioA3-0002mW-JL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:19:19 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 05 Jan 2012 14:19:17 -0000 Received: from c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net (EHLO bagel) [174.56.1.147] by mail.gmx.com (mp-us004) with SMTP; 05 Jan 2012 09:19:17 -0500 X-Authenticated: #67821228 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+hSncpSMCh0gEESxUYI2BXgkFQJ0s1ZK1JB/ijGl wDs99ftConry6c From: Eric Schulte To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Periodical releases Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:18:33 -0700 References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <878vlmb5by.fsf@gmx.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.208.5.67 Cc: Dave Abrahams , Bastien , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:19:31 -0000 Carsten Mattner writes: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Bastien wrote: >> 2) I will probably release Org 8.0 before the end of the feature freeze >> =C2=A0 (say march or april). =C2=A0Not having it in Emacs 24.1 is not su= ch a big >> =C2=A0 deal, agreed, but it creates a situation where people often insta= ll >> =C2=A0 Org on top of the one that comes with Emacs, which doesn't feel >> =C2=A0 optimal and leads to many questions, because of conflicting insta= lls. > > Out of curiosity. If I have 24.1 with Org 7.x and to use Org latest > I put that in ~/.emacs.d/, is there some potential > ambiguity/conflict/version-clash/mixup going on if I add that > local dir to the load path? Do I have to use some unknown-to-me > (prepend-to-load-path path)? I know that Vim has ~/.vim/* first in the > path list. What's it for Emacs? The `add-to-list' function will place any new directory at the front of your load path. In general adding the new version of Org-mode to your load path, loading or requiring org, and then calling the `org-reload' function should be sufficient. For more information see [1]. However, when an older version of Org-mode (e.g., one shipped with Emacs) is loaded first it defines all Org-mode variables. Subsequent versions of Org-mode will not update the values of these variables as a defvar of an existing variable does not change its value. This frequently leads to buggy behavior. This point would argue for migration of Org-mode to ELPA in future releases. Best -- Eric Footnotes:=20 [1] http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#Keeping-current --=20 Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 09:30:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RioLH-0005zj-5Z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:30:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60756) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioLE-0005zU-Ba for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:30:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioLD-0004cA-G4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:30:52 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:45879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RioLD-0004c5-9l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:30:51 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so1234674iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:30:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=nlFiFoAp79qdIcl4g2ZCfpKert6colvPJH1K6LM7Q9Q=; b=QXNvIkzwOGCOiEkuqf5Dk+jlXSXUqhufhv85ZIjgPNFNAI7UaJiidVffYXrDxKXPg4 5YGmONh1ofUphjdjSG6Fe/PXG5vRXQN3m3N5VUWpyFyKDXj/W6HG/Hf7iM5eX8pxGD7T sZIqz1xGn9ho8alw//O57a95Uf32l8/x44Ncw= Received: by 10.42.151.68 with SMTP id d4mr2290415icw.36.1325773850629; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from JAMBU-NETBOOK ([115.184.57.220]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id yg2sm123842391igb.1.2012.01.05.06.30.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:30:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jambunathan K To: Leo Subject: Re: Periodical releases References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> <87r4ze3lf8.fsf@gnu.org> <877h16337m.fsf@gnu.org> <81ipkqnw99.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:00:30 +0530 In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:00:46 +0800") Message-ID: <81sjjui5mh.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:30:53 -0000 Leo writes: > On 2012-01-05 20:56 +0800, Jambunathan K wrote: >>> 1 For example the value of including org-mode in the source tree is >>> quite little. If it is distributed with the packing system people can >>> receive more timely bug fixes free of any constraint of the release >>> cycle. >> >> Org's daily builds are part of GNU ELPA for atleast around an year now. > > Point missed. Too terse for me to understand - not that I care to understand. > Leo > > > -- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 09:51:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiofJ-0003wE-JL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:51:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riof9-0003vw-63 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:51:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riof4-0000Bd-QT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:51:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:55967) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riof4-0000BW-Jc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:51:22 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so611846pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:51:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Uaby1lO5eBtdRfqwE4H2OdE85CLCrkb4p41owZHJHA8=; b=jeZC5cWJHxhYkVwuqRBXKZNgHhhDmyBHjeGtRs3hR7nLu2GDbDGNa861ffCF5b4zPt EYEfZ6olojHdFeu+4VUcw//gP5BRsqf38IjLhW8MIPo5sdGrk51YIhjWKouCP0r0F3qg d/3EOotuTqGrc6iChfte+vTiIUIIP50cpWiC8= Received: by 10.68.141.42 with SMTP id rl10mr536140pbb.91.1325775081190; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:51:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:50:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:50:40 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:51:36 -0000 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : > You're right. =C2=A0Do you agree with the general idea of checking for > critical updates on startup, though? FWIW, I don't. That is a step (tiny, I know) in the "software as a service" direction. > I think the risk of providing out-of-date libxml2 or libxpm is much > smaller than providing out-of-date GnuTLS. If we don't provide GnuTLS libraries, the risk of providing out-of-date ones is zero. >=C2=A0So while I understand your > concern about this slippery slope, I think we can resist it, and regular > releases can address the general need for updates. Why? We're not a binary shop. Why go that route? > Combining (4) and (2) seems most convenient for the users: they will > have a single installer for all of Emacs (a convenience that goes beyond > this thread), and they'll get notified on all platforms when GnuTLS is > out of date. Does that mean that my Emacs is going to automatically try to establish a network connection without asking me? Or that I'm gonna be asked every time? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 10:09:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiowV-0001qd-El for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:09:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50298) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiowO-0001q5-2a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:09:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiowM-000428-4U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:09:16 -0500 Received: from mx1.bahnhof.se ([213.80.101.11]:61448) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiowL-000418-HI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:09:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (mf.bahnhof.se [213.80.101.20]) by mx1-reinject (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1172958D8 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:09:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at bahnhof.se (MF1) Received: from mf1.bahnhof.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mf1.bahnhof.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i44leSLkld4S for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:09:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from exodia.localdomain (h-235-102.a149.priv.bahnhof.se [85.24.235.102]) by mf1.bahnhof.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA035AEA875 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:09:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from chopper.vpn.verona.se (unknown [192.168.201.14]) by exodia.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309F74E00A4 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:08:49 +0100 (CET) From: joakim@verona.se To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:08:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:50:10 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-Received-From: 213.80.101.11 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:09:22 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:36:57 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> From: Ted Zlatanov >>> >>> I think, to get this working, we need a list of critical ELPA packages >>> that Emacs will check for updates on startup and alert the user to >>> upgrade. By default that list should be empty on all platforms, except >>> on W32 it will contain the "gnutls-w32" package. > > EZ> Again, why are we treating MS-Windows specially? Why shouldn't Emacs > EZ> issue the same alert on GNU and Unix systems, if GnuTLS is found to be > EZ> unavailable? The fact that several distributions have Emacs depend on > EZ> GnuTLS does not mean all of them do or will, and let's not forget that > EZ> even in the year 2012 users can build their own Emacs (without > EZ> GnuTLS). > > You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for > critical updates on startup, though? > > I would actually also like to bundle trusted certificates. The > Diginotar compromise showed the need for managing the certs proactively, > and we can't rely on what's on W32 systems. On other platforms we can > let the distribution choose the right cert bundle. Right now, gnutls.el > will take a list of trustfiles or default to > /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt, which is hardly ideal for all > platforms. > > On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:36:38 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > JB> The moment the packages are accesible from the official site, there's > JB> certain responsibilities. For example, to issue security upgrades as > JB> fast as possible. > ... > JB> Responsibility and obligation are disjoint concepts. I don't mind the > JB> load, but I hate accepting (not personally, but as a project) the > JB> responsibility to do things, like compiling GnuTLS binaries and > JB> distributing them, that are utterly disconnected from Emacs > JB> development per se. The moment we do that, people will expect we also > JB> provide up-to-date binaries for image libs, libxml2, d-bus, you name > JB> it. > > I think the risk of providing out-of-date libxml2 or libxpm is much > smaller than providing out-of-date GnuTLS. So while I understand your > concern about this slippery slope, I think we can resist it, and regular > releases can address the general need for updates. > > On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:24:56 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> From: Ted Zlatanov > >>> I'm concerned about GnuTLS updates after the install. An ELPA package >>> could do that, a simple DLL drop couldn't. > > EZ> That's true, but if we assume that an urgent need to upgrade GnuTLS > EZ> will not be too frequent, we can update it with each release and in > EZ> binaries of development snapshots. That would probably do 80% of the > EZ> job, if not more. > > Unfortunately security issues and their fixes are inherently urgent and > unpredictable (e.g. the Diginotar compromise). Note above about my > desire to also provide cert bundles in this package, so it could do much > more than a DLL drop. But if we go with Joakim's full installer idea, > that would do the job better than package.el could. > > On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:40:27 +0100 joakim@verona.se wrote: > > j> If I were to do this I would make a build bot that produced daily > j> binaries of the installer of a complete Emacs installation including the > j> dll files. I would not bother with partial updating of particular dll:s > j> at this time. > > If we tell the user to reinstall because GnuTLS is out of date, would > that be a big burden? I guess that's a fourth option for distributing > and updating GnuTLS, which could be combined with the ELPA package for > notifications: > > 1) zipfile drop > > 2) ELPA package in the GNU ELPA archive with startup GnuTLS version check > > 3) GnuTLS standalone installer+updater > > 4) Emacs installer+updater > > Combining (4) and (2) seems most convenient for the users: they will > have a single installer for all of Emacs (a convenience that goes beyond > this thread), and they'll get notified on all platforms when GnuTLS is > out of date. I think using a patcher should be sufficient: http://wiz0u.free.fr/prog/WPatch/ That way we get a one stop solution for all changes. Surely there must be an existing nsis installer for Emacs somewhere? If there isn't I can provide a skeleton for someone else to tweak. Emacs ought to be fairly easy to make an installer for since you basically just copy the binaries somewhere and run out of tree. (I suppose, I'm not familiar with how people run Emacs on Windows these days) BTW the Nsis compiler can run on Gnu/Linux using Wine. There is a native version as well but I never got it working properly. Also you will be surprised at how arcane the Nsis language is(partly an artefact of the domain), so one is often tempted to use something else. Last time I checked the alternatives were worse, but that might have changed. > Ted > -- Joakim Verona From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 10:17:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rip4o-0008VH-9N for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:17:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58156) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rip4j-0008Sg-9z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:17:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rip4i-0005fN-50 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:17:53 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36216) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rip4h-0005fD-Sd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:17:52 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rip4g-0001Mq-NA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:17:50 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:17:50 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:17:50 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:17:12 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <87wr96p4ab.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83k457p3fg.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqezqeph.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:HcP5sDuv2TcZlVcwmjSduzOrASk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:17:55 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: [snip] >> I could say that your real-world experience distributing, installing >> and supporting software across heterogenous environments looks quite >> limited, but I'll rather suppose that you were very lucky so far. > > You can call 7 years of safe use on 4 different machines luck if you > want. I call it discipline and following safe practices. Wait a minute. You are basing the points you so vehemently defend on just personal experience with your own machines? Does that make sense at all? Do you think that people is so disciplined and knowledgeable (and lucky!) as you and that makes all the problems you don't have to become irrelevant for Emacs? That last paragraph of yours speaks tons about our different stances on this issue. It is my direct responsability to keep my software up and running for hundreds of users across dozens of sites and configurations on machines I don't control, quite a few of them playing a critical role, and deal with bug reports from tens of thousands of users more. Acting as if the experience I gather from my desktop were enough to set the bar for the rest of world would be so foolish that I would be out of bussiness and sued after the three first months. Maybe Emacs doesn't need so much careful thinking as mission-critical software does, but basing design decissions onto very limited personal experiences looks quite wrong too. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 10:31:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RipHZ-0004lk-BX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:31:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipHW-0004jW-Lh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:31:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipHQ-00006y-U8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:31:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipHQ-00006i-Kd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:31:00 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RipHO-0007U1-3d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:30:58 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:30:58 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:30:58 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:37:04 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 10 Message-ID: <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> References: <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Telefon Tel Aviv's _Immolate Yourself_: "You Are the Worst Thing in the World" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:SXW07B3PO+HuallU7axt+krfC5Y= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:31:07 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for > critical updates on startup, though? You didn't ask me, but I certainly do not. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 10:34:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RipKn-00083f-Kv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:34:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipKg-0007k4-Pb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:34:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipKd-0000rG-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:34:22 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:59449) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RipKd-0000r8-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:34:19 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q05FYGRZ030965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:34:17 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q05FYFpP027017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:34:16 GMT Received: from abhmt109.oracle.com (abhmt109.oracle.com [141.146.116.61]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q05FYFWV031248; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:34:15 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.61.12) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 07:34:14 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Dave Abrahams'" , References: <71588355363047528F16FE989690A488@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: Periodical releases Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 07:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczLU12aeeOqgL/OT9aJKfyVKs+yvQAa6RvA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4F05C2F9.0097,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:34:28 -0000 > >> Don't wait until "perfection" and release trunk more often > >> with bug releases if needed. > > > > No, no, no, please. Just the opposite. > > Bake Emacs _more_ fully before releasing it. > > > > Get it right. Document it well. Mention all user-visible > > changes in NEWS. Fix outstanding bugs. > > > > Richard had exactly the right approach to releasing Emacs, IMO. He > > was attacked by some because they felt the release cycle was too > > short. I, for one, appreciated his thoroughness and insistence on > > high quality. > > Is it not possible to have thorougness and high quality with more > frequent releases of smaller scope? Maybe the problem (if > there is one) is that trunk is allowed to drift too far from a > releasable state. I'm just saying. Not when there are large changes made for significant features (new or old). Consider, for Emacs 24, (1) the myriad user-visible effects of radically changing the `display-buffer'/window behavior, and (2) the significant development effort related to bidi (non-trivial, takes time to implement and test). From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 10:53:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ripd1-0000VA-31 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:53:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37958) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ripct-0000S1-Vd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:53:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ripcs-0004Of-Gr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:53:11 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44654) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ripcs-0004OJ-6x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:53:10 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ripcl-0000tV-Ex for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:53:03 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:53:03 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:53:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:52:48 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <87sjjup2nj.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87aa64ubg9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjjv5moq.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:YLxnp4aCgrisA4MBaZUIhnzDcRg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:53:17 -0000 joakim@verona.se writes: > Here is my advice based on some commercial installers I worked on. [snipped a chunk of good advice] > If I were to do this I would make a build bot that produced daily > binaries of the installer of a complete Emacs installation including the > dll files. I would not bother with partial updating of particular dll:s > at this time. I used NSIS lots of years ago. Finally abandoned it because its poor support for partial updates. At the time some people were discussing the possibility of adding a component for updating a package through the Internet. Like a network installer but with the added capability of re-running and updating the previously installed files. Guess that nothing came out of it. > Later, I would implement libffi support in Emacs, by including Guile as > an Emacs dependency. Then we could have uniform soft dll support, and > get a step on the way on including Guile in the Emacs core. But I digress. I'm eager to see how well Guile competes with Emacs Lisp as a convenience for extending Emacs :-) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 11:19:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riq2F-0000dn-4G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:19:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riq2D-0000de-33 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:19:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riq27-0000xS-5L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:19:21 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:47899) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riq27-0000xK-2C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:19:15 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so1384219iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:19:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=R8Ps1THTfiYws0gg0japrt+yaiLc8fKTzf5XMRZPC+g=; b=U1D0Kl+lvS9zuXjeveDdfIPidfeO39YIESsSZPnm6vLkNoQpVZlJzp2HxOgPWohCCV i/rEHZoWxdhO8vP1PzdXjPI0SJCPPVRGNINXn8ToppgdnbolT5tDTnIYNVzm+dEySqaP PN2Rcu2CBth77HvJ/y9Y/LnnRudJzR8UBcHpU= Received: by 10.50.189.137 with SMTP id gi9mr3424140igc.1.1325780354361; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id aq5sm124284095igc.5.2012.01.05.08.19.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:19:09 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> To: Juanma Barranquero X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:19:21 -0000 On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >=20 >> You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for >> critical updates on startup, though? >=20 > FWIW, I don't. That is a step (tiny, I know) in the "software as a > service" direction. I'm a little surprised to see the suggestion that `checking for critical = updates' is objectionable because it's too much like `software as a = service' in your mind. Out of curiosity, do you assemble the pieces of = your operating system by hand and manually check for updates yourself? = Do you think that most GNU/Linux distributions are too much like = `software as a service' for the same reasons? > Does that mean that my Emacs is going to automatically try to > establish a network connection without asking me? Or that I'm gonna be > asked every time? It would mean that the default Emacs would automatically try to = establish a network connection without asking you, yes. If you believe = that the default user is opposed to this, I'll suggest that you might = not have noticed them all voting with their feet in favor of this at = least a decade ago. This isn't even the old `Windows Majority', even - = I can't think of a computing system today that meets the criteria = ``might run Emacs 24.2'' and ``does NOT somehow check the network for = critical updates in the default installation''. *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 12:53:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RirUz-0002tc-44 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:53:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44613) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RirUr-0002qN-N1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:53:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RirUl-00062K-NA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:53:01 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:56071) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RirUl-00062C-D6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:52:55 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RirUk-0005Lc-4N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:52:54 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:52:54 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:52:54 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:52:35 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 72 Message-ID: <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:vRKtXEVEhDb1DJ87ZKdoZm1jMEo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:53:07 -0000 On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:37:04 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: LI> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for >> critical updates on startup, though? LI> You didn't ask me, but I certainly do not. I certainly value your opinion. Could you explain why you disagree with checking critical packages (just GnuTLS currently)? How would you propose letting the user know they are out of date, instead of this? On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:50:40 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >> You're right. Do you agree with the general idea of checking for >> critical updates on startup, though? JB> FWIW, I don't. That is a step (tiny, I know) in the "software as a JB> service" direction. Not at all. It's just a convenience based on our desire to take responsibility for the security of the software we provide. >> Combining (4) and (2) seems most convenient for the users: they will >> have a single installer for all of Emacs (a convenience that goes beyond >> this thread), and they'll get notified on all platforms when GnuTLS is >> out of date. JB> Does that mean that my Emacs is going to automatically try to JB> establish a network connection without asking me? Or that I'm gonna be JB> asked every time? It will be configurable and transparent when possible, but yes, at some point it may ask you once. If we have a W32 installer I'd make it a checkbox during the install. On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:14:11 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> I would actually also like to bundle trusted certificates. EZ> Where should they be gotten and how to integrate them with GnuTLS? (Note this is speculative, I don't know for sure we should do this, but certainly on W32 the cert bundle has to come from somewhere.) I think it's safest to use Mozilla's cert bundle but I may sync with Debian's bundle instead. They don't integrate with GnuTLS as a library, but rather they are given to it by gnutls.el. So it would be maintenance and special cases in gnutls.el, not in C code. Our list of certs may diverge from what's built into the OS (e.g. RHEL vs. Debian vs. Mac OS X). There's no way to fix that, we have to let the user choose, and by default use the OS cert bundle when it's feasible. >> If we tell the user to reinstall because GnuTLS is out of date, would >> that be a big burden? EZ> It could be, since Emacs is a large distribution, and GnuTLS libraries EZ> are much smaller in comparison. Maybe the wpatch Joakim mentioned would help here. But yeah, I see the problem, and yet everyone (IIUC) is saying a bundled install is the safest way instead of trying to update DLLs directly. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 13:13:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rirp8-0006WA-Pw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:13:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38364) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rirp6-0006W1-2m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:13:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rirp4-0001vL-SD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:13:56 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:39783) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rirp4-0001v6-F7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:13:54 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXC009007OGNJ00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:51 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.16.185]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXC009DB7YZE9B0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:50 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:11:44 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <87wr96p4ab.fsf@wanadoo.es> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Message-id: <83d3ayow7z.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <83boqkr9bp.fsf@gnu.org> <874nwcu17i.fsf@wanadoo.es> <834nwcr6un.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83k457p3fg.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqezqeph.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87wr96p4ab.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:13:57 -0000 > From: =D3scar Fuentes > Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:17:12 +0100 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > [snip] >=20 > >> I could say that your real-world experience distributing, instal= ling > >> and supporting software across heterogenous environments looks q= uite > >> limited, but I'll rather suppose that you were very lucky so far= . > > > > You can call 7 years of safe use on 4 different machines luck if = you > > want. I call it discipline and following safe practices. >=20 > Wait a minute. You are basing the points you so vehemently defend o= n > just personal experience with your own machines? Does that make sen= se at > all? Do you think that people is so disciplined and knowledgeable (= and > lucky!) as you and that makes all the problems you don't have to be= come > irrelevant for Emacs? Most "people" do not install multiple packages, such as MinGW and MSYS, that could potentially conflict on the same machine. And yes, I think my experience is fairly common to those who do. > That last paragraph of yours speaks tons about our different stance= s on > this issue. It is my direct responsability to keep my software up a= nd > running for hundreds of users across dozens of sites and configurat= ions > on machines I don't control, quite a few of them playing a critical > role, and deal with bug reports from tens of thousands of users > more. Does that involve installing MinGW and MSYS/Cygwin on the same machine? Or mixing MSVC 6 with MSVC 13? > Acting as if the experience I gather from my desktop were enough > to set the bar for the rest of world would be so foolish I never set that this bar is for everyone. For the umpteenth time: B= Y DEFAULT THE DLLS SHOULD GO TO THE SAME DIRECTORY AS EMACS.EXE. Let g= o! From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 13:23:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiryB-0000gM-Nl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:23:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58700) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riry9-0000gE-Qx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:23:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riry8-0003ME-Q4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:23:17 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:33581) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riry8-0003M7-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:23:16 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=linux-hvfx.site) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Riry0-0002iN-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:23:08 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Now-Playing: Prince's _Dirty Mind_: "Partyup" Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:29:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:52:35 -0500") Message-ID: <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1Riry0-0002iN-Me X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326392589.26394@sn4LJR8GjlzL3S7AuWHySg X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:23:18 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > I certainly value your opinion. Could you explain why you disagree with > checking critical packages (just GnuTLS currently)? If every program did stuff like that, using a computer would be untenable. $ gcc file.c Checking for new versions of gcc... New version of gcc found. Do you want to upgrade? (y/n) > How would you propose letting the user know they are out of date, > instead of this? I wouldn't. Emacs under Linux doesn't check for stuff like that. If the user believes that there's something critical going on that needs updating, the user says "apt-get update; apt-get upgrade". If the user believes that Emacs under Windows needs updating, the user will download the zip file as usual. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 15:07:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ritap-0006tw-4Y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:07:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47566) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritak-0006tg-Cm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:07:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritag-0003qq-7S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:07:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:41641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritaf-0003qc-Qn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:07:10 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritac-0002if-SS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:06:53 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 45 Message-ID: <87zke129sy.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:uU/xGUWrfHm/m9hJOHnzFjjlonA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:07:18 -0000 On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:29:27 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: LI> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> I certainly value your opinion. Could you explain why you disagree with >> checking critical packages (just GnuTLS currently)? LI> If every program did stuff like that, using a computer would be LI> untenable. LI> $ gcc file.c LI> Checking for new versions of gcc... LI> New version of gcc found. Do you want to upgrade? (y/n) GCC, unlike Emacs, is not a self-sufficient environment. Compare Emacs to Chrome and Firefox... which, not surprisingly, do tell you about updates, and they are both layout engines coupled with an interpreter, like Emacs. Also, I agree it's silly to interrupt batch mode with questions, as your example shows. This update check (which, again, I'm only proposing for GnuTLS, and can be easily disabled) would be turned off in batch/noninteractive modes. >> How would you propose letting the user know they are out of date, >> instead of this? LI> I wouldn't. LI> Emacs under Linux doesn't check for stuff like that. Emacs' package.el can check and update packages. LI> If the user believes that there's something critical going on that LI> needs updating, the user says "apt-get update; apt-get upgrade". If LI> the user believes that Emacs under Windows needs updating, the user LI> will download the zip file as usual. The user doesn't know, usually, that there's been a critical GnuTLS release that affects them. Unlike normal updates, ignoring this can actually compromise their security, not just corrupt or expose their data. This is a crucial distinction. So I want Emacs to notify the user their GnuTLS is out of date, or else something else should (e.g. the self-contained GnuTLS updater for W32 I proposed). Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 15:31:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ritxs-0004gE-0i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:31:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45801) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritxp-0004fO-N7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:31:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritxo-0008AK-Ip for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:31:05 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:57906) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ritxo-0008AE-9i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:31:04 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so840060dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:31:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1anvxBoNLRKHTJLXMJFdom5HU9igsNra912jFkTVB7k=; b=Bo2fKco8R37WygzUi6zvQmtG6QA52nCQaojw101Tw8jEnhpFcOKWur+hsBSuh4XBUx VT4GWlitiY6k7MLgz8NlXsFxmcf6DkTqTpMCBQ7T62F914y8OHlDufSxs/ax8viaJ81C fwAsTQVBUTyxClI2X6ok++MSPYn6afyZ0m51U= Received: by 10.68.73.165 with SMTP id m5mr8315960pbv.108.1325795463181; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:31:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:30:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:30:23 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:31:07 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 17:19, chad wrote: > Out of curiosity, do you assemble the pieces of your operating system by = hand No, because I'm not offered that alternative in the system I use. > and manually check for updates yourself? I disable automatic checking and do manual checks every now and then, yes. > Do you think that most GNU/Linux distributions are too much like `softwar= e as a service' for the same reasons? Certainly I don't like much the way GNU/Linux distributions are going. > It would mean that the default Emacs would automatically try to establish= a network connection without asking you, yes. If my vote counts, I'll vote against that being the default. > If you believe that the default user is opposed to this, I'll suggest tha= t you might not have noticed them all voting with their feet in favor of th= is at least a decade ago. =C2=A0This isn't even the old `Windows Majority',= even - I can't think of a computing system today that meets the criteria `= `might run Emacs 24.2'' and ``does NOT somehow check the network for critic= al updates in the default installation''. Last I checked, Emacs wasn't yet an operating system. There are plenty of applications, many of them quite new, with no automatic checking and/or upgrading. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 15:37:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riu4C-0006wb-Ht for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:37:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47883) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu4A-0006wV-GL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:37:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu49-0000XY-AC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:37:38 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:56777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu49-0000XR-4L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:37:37 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so844779dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:37:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3tZ7bVf3u0AoK3Rj9IaqaQ526ABIfgdHictYnmyPYsw=; b=AV1vgBuPrrg83BmbdN3vvtba36dIPZHGb9tPqFf1DowQyp6gyCFM1P2xeHueoaSiWO OLbPIUPKxDShOSD2TgfKtpk+iffI4wG3T6qBB5O9Uj4r2n5MMyyENOeW+qv6v1Wgvigj 4bbDpQa+uYLAWyJlRWYojYKRAKsGqudkX22fw= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr8605937pbv.6.1325795856341; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:37:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:36:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:36:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:37:39 -0000 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : > Not at all. =C2=A0It's just a convenience based on our desire to take > responsibility for the security of the software we provide. Starting with the fact that we shouldn't be providing that software in the first place... > It will be configurable and transparent when possible, but yes, at some > point it may ask you once. Even if I don't use, and don't want to use, and don't plan to use, and don't even want to know that the binary somehow included, the GnuTLS DLL? > If we have a W32 installer I'd make it a checkbox during the install. If someone creates an installer for Emacs, I don't care what the defaults a= re. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 15:39:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riu5V-0007ME-L0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:39:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48180) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu5P-0007IA-1L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:38:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu5K-0000n8-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:38:55 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:56664) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riu5K-0000n2-0t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:38:50 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so872019pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:38:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mjU9FyJRA4GBA3k/UZCieLCwhhbWDul4rJ4mIGbOYNI=; b=bedmk/6Dnw+///bv2L8DPV2fqjd6cxw8Bp5Xybqx+5/P1VY0GJ9ku5d/HPQSmmKrse tfoPj6c7o+vTemcL+7TcTK8iH7vtuXfE6s7wnO8+9u0yM5dOqFZLZAhC1czbb0rFP+/X omE4+4qlAhXJ0eKuJBOsnBjWNpzuIszhhhTqU= Received: by 10.68.141.42 with SMTP id rl10mr3084297pbb.91.1325795929170; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:38:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:38:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> References: <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:38:08 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:38:59 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 19:29, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > If every program did stuff like that, using a computer would be > untenable. > > $ gcc file.c > Checking for new versions of gcc... > New version of gcc found. =C2=A0Do you want to upgrade? (y/n) Thanks! I was starting to feel alone in this. >> How would you propose letting the user know they are out of date, >> instead of this? > > I wouldn't. +1,000 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 17:35:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RivuK-0005ux-HC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:35:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44551) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RivuI-0005uq-1X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:35:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RivuG-00026P-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:35:34 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:52750) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RivuG-00026H-Iz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:35:32 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RivuF-0006xj-Ag for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:35:31 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:35:31 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:35:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:35:17 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:FG/3KYe9yly61h1wMnyjrKB+NxA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:35:35 -0000 On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:36:55 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >> Not at all. It's just a convenience based on our desire to take >> responsibility for the security of the software we provide. JB> Starting with the fact that we shouldn't be providing that software in JB> the first place... I mean Emacs. Maybe you do too, I don't know anymore. >> It will be configurable and transparent when possible, but yes, at some >> point it may ask you once. JB> Even if I don't use, and don't want to use, and don't plan to use, and JB> don't even want to know that the binary somehow included, the GnuTLS JB> DLL? Yes, even you personally. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 17:38:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rivwh-0006ZR-F5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:38:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45031) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivwe-0006Y1-Va for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:38:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivwd-0002LH-G0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:38:00 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:33412) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivwd-0002L0-1o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:37:59 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC73D91FB for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:37:54 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 28143 invoked by uid 89); 5 Jan 2012 22:36:50 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 5 Jan 2012 22:36:50 -0000 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCB907FA058; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:37:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Memory again Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:37:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6F8FEE75-2ED4-45A7-85B9-305EE51B5A04@swipnet.se> References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> To: emacs user X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:38:02 -0000 Hello. I see this increase also. Memory does not seem to be given back to the = system on OSX. Maybe we should try using gmalloc on OSX. There is problem however, the = unexec for OSX uses a special malloc for temacs and the normal one for the dumped = emacs. I'm not even sure gmalloc works on OSX. Jan D. 5 jan 2012 kl. 07:13 skrev emacs user: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:44 PM, emacs user = wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:39 AM, Stefan Monnier >>=20 >>> The GC stats you posted indicate that the GC knows of about 27MB of = data >>> (10MB of which is actually unused but can't be returned to malloc = due to >>> fragmentation) which doesn't account for the 214MB you mention. So = it >>> looks like that data is held by the C code. >>>=20 >>> Of course, I don't know what the 214MB represent, if it is resident = set >>> size, then there really seems to be a leak, whereas if it's the = total >>> virtual size, it may also be an artifact of various other things. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Stefan >>=20 >> here is something which I am hoping is reproducible by others: >> download >> = http://emacsforosx.com/emacs-builds/Emacs-2011-12-23-universal-10.6.8.dmg >> save to desktop. >>=20 >> start emacs: >> $ ~/Desktop/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -Q& >>=20 >> create a file that contains the following line many times >> asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf = asdf >> $ wc t : 687456 10311840 52246656 t >> $ ls -l t: -rw------- 1 x staff 52246656 Dec 23 05:08 t >>=20 >> edit it using the above emacs. >> kill all buffers, do M-x garbage-collect >>=20 >> look at the process: >>=20 >> $ ps -vefl | head -1 >> PID STAT TIME SL RE PAGEIN VSZ RSS LIM TSIZ >> %CPU %MEM COMMAND UID PPID C STIME TTY F >> PRI NI WCHAN ADDR >>=20 >> before editing the file: >> $ ps -vefl | grep 62764 >> 62764 S 0:00.78 0 0 0 2571020 30852 - 0 >> 0.3 0.7 /Users/xxx/Deskt 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 4006 >> 49 0 - ffffff8012762000 >>=20 >> after editing it, killing the buffer, and doing M-x garbage-collect >> $ ps -vefl | grep 62764 >> 62764 S 0:01.85 0 0 0 2625752 83036 - 0 >> 0.6 2.0 /Users/xxx/Deskt 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 4006 >> 48 0 - ffffff8012762000 >>=20 >> I am running on Lion, Macbook Air. does this help? >=20 > just in case this is helpful, I see the same increase in RSS using > emacs 23.3 too, but not under linux. is this a problem, or is this > increase in RSS normal? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 17:40:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rivyk-0006zv-4P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:40:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38375) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivyi-0006y8-AG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:40:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivyg-0002os-Ty for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:40:08 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44829) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivyg-0002oY-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:40:06 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rivyf-0000Tc-Ej for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:40:05 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:40:05 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:40:05 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:39:33 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1mboqhzxx6.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:HhiaQeFyiKF8VVDAexM2lsizL+0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:40:09 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : > >> Not at all.  It's just a convenience based on our desire to take >> responsibility for the security of the software we provide. > > Starting with the fact that we shouldn't be providing that software in > the first place... > >> It will be configurable and transparent when possible, but yes, at some >> point it may ask you once. > > Even if I don't use, and don't want to use, and don't plan to use, and > don't even want to know that the binary somehow included, the GnuTLS > DLL? > >> If we have a W32 installer I'd make it a checkbox during the install. > > If someone creates an installer for Emacs, I don't care what the > defaults are. Maybe not, but just about everyone else will. Its why they are "defaults" : sensible choices. > >     Juanma > From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 17:44:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riw2g-0007e0-W6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:44:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39023) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw2e-0007du-S5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:44:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw2d-0003OV-L4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:44:12 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:43844) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw2d-0003OR-C9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:44:11 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so951957pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eOf/GzPGJRm1eL+YPysGD9vjFDQGWJdqaE+6Om+Ew2E=; b=CIdjUKSpxcW+cewwEB5K0HSwcQ5TqndnJDNFBQzmmy3KripTv6Lrluma/sFY/4MPe/ xzXmxPtvEb/SlJKUr1Pg5deMUryRD8TquLSKCPLq/QtwRZ7khkh4ZPtz3OHbh++0dQl3 hxqS4XDpgTOt0eSZv7H0d2rpahilZoKeFIzow= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr9480421pbw.23.1325803450176; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:43:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:43:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: Emacs developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:44:13 -0000 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : > I mean Emacs. =C2=A0Maybe you do too, I don't know anymore. I meant the GnuTLS DLL, but the Emacs binary too, if possible. Unfortunately, on Windows is almost a requirement. > Yes, even you personally. Well, duh. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 17:46:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riw4R-0000Gh-4c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:46:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60004) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw4P-0000F6-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:46:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw4O-00040O-B7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:46:01 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:63788) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riw4O-00040J-2e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:46:00 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so952877pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:45:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v384a7VTi5egN94O3XAs6+d6SJR+ZzQUAsTpUdjcd+Y=; b=db46e/Faxf4WvdlB9Tx7KaAuUylosRnq/HbwIaVrlJO/dhfTmdfhaf0013wF7Vowjc hjhfEFaOc7S4U12DRH8c4ItLYuloMWLUytx3XxD6YN9wcLOleaMpfexZD3ScfXFcboht XSMk4FYif8U7fnfGbB49tvi41QVLhCnXsB6jk= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr9485329pbv.40.1325803559202; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:45:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:45:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1mboqhzxx6.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <1mboqhzxx6.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:45:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:46:02 -0000 On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 21:39, Richard Riley wrote: > Maybe not, but just about everyone else will. Its why they are > "defaults" : sensible choices. What I meant is that I won't use it** so I don't care which defaults are defined. All of them are equally good to me. **(Assuming we're talking about an installer for Emacs. I would use an installer for GnuTLS as a separate package.) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:06:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiwNk-0003pL-6s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:06:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46939) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwNh-0003mv-0a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:05:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwNe-0007Mq-N6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:05:56 -0500 Received: from orlando.hostforweb.net ([216.246.45.90]:50932) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwNe-0007MC-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:05:54 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60560) by orlando.hostforweb.net with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwNa-0000pT-Uh; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:05:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:05:39 +0900 Message-ID: From: Katsumi Yamaoka To: ding@gnus.org Subject: Updating copyright years (was Re: [gnus git] branch master updated: n0-17-447-g55c26cf =1= Add 2012 to FSF copyright years for Emacs files.) References: Organization: Emacsen advocacy group X-Face: #kKnN,xUnmKia.'[pp`; Omh}odZK)?7wQSl"4o04=EixTF+V[""w~iNbM9ZL+.b*_CxUmFk B#Fu[*?MZZH@IkN:!"\w%I_zt>[$nm7nQosZ<3eu; B:$Q_:p!',P.c0-_Cy[dz4oIpw0ESA^D*1Lw= L&i*6&( User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (i686-pc-cygwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:MURHnFrcsm2EzfxWNDAcQsF2bLc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - orlando.hostforweb.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jpl.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-Received-From: 216.246.45.90 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:05:58 -0000 +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Katsumi Yamaoka writes: >> Add 2012 to FSF copyright years for Emacs files. Cf. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.diffs/112565 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.cvs/11711 > Should this be done for files that haven't changed? As for emacs-w3m and others I update the copyright years on a file only when having changed it for the first time in the year. But Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of every year regardless of having been changed or not. And as for those changes I worked as an engineer to merge changes made in Emacs and Gnus mutually (I've also updated some extra files, e.g. gnus-xmas.el and friends, though). I used to feel Emacs' way strange. Maybe updating the copyright years of Walt Disney's works every year is nonsense. But Emacs' way is alike to it. What is TRT? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:14:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiwVp-0004rC-Oe for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40105) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwVm-0004r1-Q1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwVl-0008KF-Ng for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58490) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwVl-0008KB-JY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:17 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwVj-000645-Ll; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:15 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Katsumi Yamaoka Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: X-Spook: Treasury IDEA Security Council Crowell president embassy X-Ran: qrZ6a.O&h$#4+w6v7MW6h3H7]nx['t8EW@UIyVsT(2G%Bjd(#L}uQ;;v4Bv+@q'BC`c:%[ X-Hue: cyan X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Katsumi Yamaoka's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:05:39 +0900") Message-ID: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:14:20 -0000 Katsumi Yamaoka wrote: > Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of > every year regardless of having been changed or not. Emacs has done it this way for several years, as documented in admin/notes and as recommended in "Information for Maintainers of GNU Software": http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Copyright-Notices To update the list of year numbers, add each year in which you have made nontrivial changes to the package. (Here we assume you're using a publicly accessible revision control server, so that every revision installed is also immediately and automatically published.) When you add the new year, it is not required to keep track of which files have seen significant changes in the new year and which have not. It is recommended and simpler to add the new year to all files in the package, and be done with it for the rest of the year. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:15:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiwWc-0005Er-TJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51059) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWa-0005ES-PK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWZ-0008VN-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:08 -0500 Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:41679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWZ-0008V8-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:07 -0500 Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so715058qcs.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=Houv83IGLI+Z7Xm7jiVvrQSWIutE9iCZqoEk3dl+JYA=; b=edGcRv2mv6MV434pby2A4roO8zyS2TOwIuUC1E68Y8a7hV14522LTODABiUN9QfNOJ T8sXv9maNZ04NngvSqec1q4VKA0vLsiDCPf8HbJHf7sAkx9HHUy7dtwICl6QtU2GWN5q ieGOO/OwxIOKfTXD4/UlocRNzjBQ26QW2IVLA= Received: by 10.229.76.202 with SMTP id d10mr1481931qck.21.1325805306810; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.120] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dk2sm49780497qab.12.2012.01.05.15.15.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:14:49 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> To: Juanma Barranquero X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:15:10 -0000 On Jan 5, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 17:19, chad wrote: >=20 >> Out of curiosity, do you assemble the pieces of your operating system = by hand >=20 > No, because I'm not offered that alternative in the system I use. >=20 >> and manually check for updates yourself? >=20 > I disable automatic checking and do manual checks every now and then, = yes. When you do manual checks, do you run a program that checks for updates, = downloads them, and then installs them; or do you load up a web browser, = visit some project pages from memory/bookmarks/etc, and start = downloading and unpacking zip files? I certainly don't think that everyone should be *required* to run an = automatic critical-update-checker, but we're not talking about that - = we're talking about the default setting. That might involve you being = asked a question once ever (something that's been built into emacs at = least since I started using in in the 18.43 days), or adding a tiny bit = of elisp to your set-up before being asked. >> Do you think that most GNU/Linux distributions are too much like = `software as a service' for the same reasons? >=20 > Certainly I don't like much the way GNU/Linux distributions are going. Ok, I sympathize (I tend to disable auto-updaters on windows systems = myself), but wasn't the question. I assume that you mention SoaS because = you think that such systems are opposed to the FSF's and/or GNU = project's goals, not just because you don't like them. You asked, ``if your vote counts'', and - to me, at least - your vote = definitely counts. I'm trying to understand your reasoning for = objecting to a default setting that would notify the user about critical = issues. Either I'm not understanding what you're saying, or you're = saying that the default users shouldn't have a feature that many (I'd = say `vast majority', but `many' is enough) because it might cause you to = have to type `n' a few times, and that doesn't match what I expect from = seeing your efforts on emacs-devel. >> If you believe that the default user is opposed to this, I'll suggest = that you might not have noticed them all voting with their feet in favor = of this at least a decade ago. This isn't even the old `Windows = Majority', even - I can't think of a computing system today that meets = the criteria ``might run Emacs 24.2'' and ``does NOT somehow check the = network for critical updates in the default installation''. >=20 > There are plenty of applications, many of them quite new, with no = automatic checking and/or upgrading. I don't want to start a flame-war, but I really don't think this = statement is true of user software. Basically everything not = hand-hacked on modern GNU/Linux, Mac OS X, or Windows system has an = automatic checking (or checking and upgrading) system in place, built in = to the application (web browsers, office suites, document/imaging = systems, and games, for example) or the operating system. To my = knowledge, emacs is the *only* software I use under windows that doesn't = do this, but I don't use windows very often, and mostly just for playing = certain computer games. Can you suggest a few `user' applications that = don't? Perhaps this is a matter of nomenclature, but in my opinion, if the = operating system's default-run package manager performs such a function, = I believe that it counts. Is that's the distinction you're drawing? *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:28:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riwje-0007uv-Kl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:28:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwjc-0007ue-0O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:28:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwja-0001a1-NR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:28:35 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:56623) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwja-0001Zq-A8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:28:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwjY-0003o5-8X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:28:32 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:28:32 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:28:32 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:28:17 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 25 Message-ID: <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:9JFdYPF57zGw69yDzmPvTsvd+ys= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:28:36 -0000 On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:43:29 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >>> Not at all. It's just a convenience based on our desire to take >>> responsibility for the security of the software we provide. JB> Starting with the fact that we shouldn't be providing that software in JB> the first place... JB> 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >> I mean Emacs. Maybe you do too, I don't know anymore. JB> I meant the GnuTLS DLL, but the Emacs binary too, if possible. JB> Unfortunately, on Windows is almost a requirement. I meant Emacs, the software, not just its binary form. Forget the binaries; you and Lars are protesting a startup check that critical packages like GnuTLS are not out of date. I'm saying that's a convenience I think we should impose on our users at the cost of a single y/n/never_bug_me_again prompt. I can't think of a better way to notify them that an Emacs component is out of date and possibly compromising their security. I believe it's our responsibility to do this. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:33:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiwoC-0000tD-ET for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37859) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwo9-0000t1-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwnz-0002EP-6N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:44666) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwnz-0002EL-1i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:07 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so978821pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:33:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/5v8nsAVSm9duOVtyP4SaO2NGtpr/Kuw9/jmgK5/kdQ=; b=HAaPVQ95/q0QARn+drWjsuF/mytF9MO6jwFzDPBdNNCviU7UspQAA3OPOXvO/4rCFr ysIE8q7ZhczNCWcMBFwYgW4WkI+N/ZF2J905qxXQ9jAHeHf6cPihsqV0rxFbyyMRnWpO 6Z2wrlyJfb2I2/3EZi7KSDlbPlcW8qLDRzi24= Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr9827781pbw.23.1325806386150; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:33:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:32:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:32:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:33:18 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:14, chad wrote: > When you do manual checks, do you run a program that checks for updates, > downloads them, and then installs them; or do you load up a web browser, > visit some project pages from memory/bookmarks/etc, and start downloading > and unpacking zip files? Well, for the operating system I do the first, because it is what the system allows. For other software, I do visit the page, unload zip files or whatever and unpack them. > I'm trying to understand your reasoning for objecting to a default settin= g that > would notify the user about critical issues. =C2=A0Either I'm not underst= anding what > you're saying, or you're saying that the default users shouldn't have a f= eature > that many (I'd say `vast majority', but `many' is enough) because it migh= t > cause you to have to type `n' a few times, and that doesn't match what I > expect from seeing your efforts on emacs-devel. My objection is at a more fundamental level: we should not be distributing binaries. For Windows, we are forced (more or less), because most Windows users do not have a build environment, so we should distribute the minimal binary that can possibly work and leave options to the user. The objection is twofold: on one hand, the more we do, the less "customizable" the system is. Of course a dedicated user can change anything, but defaults tend to be widely used and rarely questioned, at least on systems with (relatively) unexperienced users, like Windows. On the other hand, and as I've already said three or four times, this is a software development project, not a packaging one. We don't build an "Emacs distribution", we distribute Emacs source tarballs. That's what I think we should continue doing. I see a lot of people arguing how secure and convenient will be to have automatic upgrades, and I wonder why nobody but me finds weird that we are dedicating so much energy to discuss *binaries* in the first place. At which moment did we switch goals? Once we have this wonderful system for the Windows binaries, are we going to start distributing binary tarballs for RedHat, Ubuntu or gNewSense? Is that what we want to do? Certainly is not what I want to do, and it pains me seeing resources diverted to that. > To my knowledge, emacs is the *only* software I use under windows that do= esn't do this, but I don't use windows very often, and mostly just for play= ing certain computer games. Can you suggest a few `user' applications that = don't? FreeOffice. Battle for Wesnoth. TrueCrypt. Just out of my head, I haven't checked the software installed in my computer. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:39:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riwu6-000244-3k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:39:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33099) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwu4-00022g-8k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:39:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwu3-0003Hr-5P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:39:24 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:42720) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwu2-0003Hn-UG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:39:23 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so981923pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:39:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c70RKSInDD8gLKN7ONsUPtV1ij2/F4NnfsPrLOoH6oE=; b=I2s8HSjmPKLzBJKTVULtAMHEQ7CW6d3BKNLIDjpE6vP/HUsg/YwqPK9AD4Qr6KFe+k ycPwvtj5BSBZAllMF9aDSQLP+TdAf+zk2paju2/vZLCn7WtvO0qXYBKuuTQT5jvFoPlR 0iG7x+FT7U7UURwGm36MlRo4nRBdnJOf0XhTE= Received: by 10.68.74.233 with SMTP id x9mr9770242pbv.74.1325806762177; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:39:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:38:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:38:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:39:25 -0000 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > I meant Emacs, the software, not just its binary form. =C2=A0Forget the > binaries; you and Lars are protesting a startup check that critical > packages like GnuTLS are not out of date. When you say that, you are not talking about gnutls.el, you are talking about the GnuTLS binary, so no, I cannot forget the binaries. That's the whole point of the discussion (at least, of the part of the discussion I'm involved in). > I can't think of a better way to > notify them that an Emacs component is out of date and possibly > compromising their security. The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:54:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rix94-0003r0-Uv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:54:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rix92-0003qt-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:54:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rix91-0005P6-0x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:54:52 -0500 Received: from orlando.hostforweb.net ([216.246.45.90]:57694) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rix90-0005Ou-SR; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:54:50 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45610) by orlando.hostforweb.net with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rix8x-0002D1-NH; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:54:48 -0600 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:54:39 +0900 Message-ID: From: Katsumi Yamaoka To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Organization: Emacsen advocacy group X-Face: #kKnN,xUnmKia.'[pp`; Omh}odZK)?7wQSl"4o04=EixTF+V[""w~iNbM9ZL+.b*_CxUmFk B#Fu[*?MZZH@IkN:!"\w%I_zt>[$nm7nQosZ<3eu; B:$Q_:p!',P.c0-_Cy[dz4oIpw0ESA^D*1Lw= L&i*6&( User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (i686-pc-cygwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:sl0kGwlvEHsOKLjLFRizvXt9yqI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - orlando.hostforweb.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jpl.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-Received-From: 216.246.45.90 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:54:53 -0000 Glenn Morris wrote: > Katsumi Yamaoka wrote: >> Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of >> every year regardless of having been changed or not. > Emacs has done it this way for several years, as documented in > admin/notes and as recommended in "Information for Maintainers of GNU > Software": > http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Copyright-Notices > To update the list of year numbers, add each year in which you have > made nontrivial changes to the package. (Here we assume you're using > a publicly accessible revision control server, so that every > revision installed is also immediately and automatically published.) > When you add the new year, it is not required to keep track of which > files have seen significant changes in the new year and which have > not. It is recommended and simpler to add the new year to all files > in the package, and be done with it for the rest of the year. This clalified. Thanks. I think it's ok for the Gnus trunk. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:56:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixAI-0004Fn-4X for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:56:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43312) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixAE-0004Fh-IB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:56:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixAD-0005dY-BP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:56:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:51279) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixAD-0005dS-2l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:56:05 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RixA7-0006QA-JY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:59 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:59 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:59 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:46 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:8ITfkb0eDj/EP+uEWc7FiuuBri0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:56:08 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > >> I meant Emacs, the software, not just its binary form.  Forget the >> binaries; you and Lars are protesting a startup check that critical >> packages like GnuTLS are not out of date. > > When you say that, you are not talking about gnutls.el, you are > talking about the GnuTLS binary, so no, I cannot forget the binaries. > That's the whole point of the discussion (at least, of the part of the > discussion I'm involved in). > >> I can't think of a better way to >> notify them that an Emacs component is out of date and possibly >> compromising their security. > > The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". Silly word play. It's a required component for Emacs in the context of this discussion. > >     Juanma > From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 18:59:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixDp-0005Mn-8S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:59:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38819) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixDn-0005Mb-3m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:59:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixDm-0006Qk-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:59:47 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:56967) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixDm-0006QN-5z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:59:46 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so992265pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:59:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aXVfkRnCgtuNs9L+bF8qLjn6wl7STcxNcA/Rinl4ZrA=; b=G8hbTSmwo3VkAGZzuMEpbNCY/tyrSrlUsnouy6vjZWol183eWqDIUzUt9MCgAo+HMw 1eoeTjDPX5urEr0fJbbXVt3EGv9gLk0SHUP6oTEzwsFS8BksR5GnH3OnnqHcB2QMPTYz yhsmILGuAmofze9aljlFvJAO9pangVNS1MCDs= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr10064802pbv.6.1325807985200; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:59:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:59:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:59:04 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:59:48 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:55, Richard Riley wrote: > Silly word play. It's a required component for Emacs in the context of > this discussion. No, it's not. Some people are arguing that it should be, and some are treating it as if it already were, but it is not. There has not ever been a single official release of Emacs including GnuTLS binaries. The fact that Emacs can use it does not make it a component. libpng or giflib are not Emacs components either. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 19:00:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixEB-0005mm-C4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:00:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39010) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixE6-0005hs-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:00:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixE5-0006bC-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:00:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40847) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixE5-0006a9-8g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:00:05 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RixE3-0007ro-Q6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:00:03 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:00:03 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:00:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:58:23 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:0YZNNVMcYf7QxAYqxPoR6E0q+Ck= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:00:08 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:14, chad wrote: > >> When you do manual checks, do you run a program that checks for updates, >> downloads them, and then installs them; or do you load up a web browser, >> visit some project pages from memory/bookmarks/etc, and start downloading >> and unpacking zip files? > > Well, for the operating system I do the first, because it is what the > system allows. For other software, I do visit the page, unload zip > files or whatever and unpack them. > >> I'm trying to understand your reasoning for objecting to a default setting that >> would notify the user about critical issues.  Either I'm not understanding what >> you're saying, or you're saying that the default users shouldn't have a feature >> that many (I'd say `vast majority', but `many' is enough) because it might >> cause you to have to type `n' a few times, and that doesn't match what I >> expect from seeing your efforts on emacs-devel. > > My objection is at a more fundamental level: we should not be > distributing binaries. For Windows, we are forced (more or less), > because most Windows users do not have a build environment, so we > should distribute the minimal binary that can possibly work and leave > options to the user. The distribution should have everything the user might *optionally* want. This kind of minimalist thinking doesnt exactly help new users adopt emacs when they have no clue about building or fetching/installing such components themsleves. Let the advanced users opt out, but dont cut off the beginners and new users. Its silly. If distributing binaries local to the emacs install helps people get going then why not? You can disable this. You're an advanced user. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 19:06:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixKA-00072F-9r for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:06:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45034) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixK7-00071Q-Lw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:06:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixK6-0007wJ-L0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:06:19 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:62720) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixK6-0007vy-Dk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:06:18 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so970037dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:06:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k7lVWfAD6vVADYf6jATroB5tLyY0e3JKBWDgJOGZU8k=; b=tCrIIVR0GJ3IZ6U1D9WxTqc9wT621AJpNshQVN7nYZVNNBsdwuQW0FRjQ2/XACIGOD 4I8FKjiv10Yr2ufe7548gbmAsyx9YE3mBo81yEeRZQjHUTrAKJUW/EsqQDOyYZZLmCxm UctARVZjK764qC9kcELM/y2LUsukSYlrDvB5I= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr10112501pbv.6.1325808377214; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:06:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:05:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:06:20 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:58, Richard Riley wrote: > The distribution should have everything the user might *optionally* want. That's just an opinion, and one I happen not to agree with. > This kind of minimalist thinking doesnt exactly help new users > adopt emacs when they have no clue about building or fetching/installing > such components themsleves. GnuTLS is not required to "adopt Emacs". I would say that, for a Windows user, adding the image libraries would be more useful that GnuTLS, because I bet most of them are not going to start using Emacs to read e-mail or surf the web. > If distributing binaries > local to the emacs install helps people get going then why not? For Windows users, enabling CUA mode by default will "help" them more. But we don't do it. But, as for "why not"... Why? Why us? Why cannot the people who is so interested in doing it just set a side project to build an Emacs installer, and be done with it? > You can disable this. You're an advanced user. Irrelevant. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 19:10:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixOE-0007Rd-Mf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:10:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35920) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixOC-0007RX-9s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:10:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixOB-0000Ro-6G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:10:32 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:55927) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixOB-0000Rf-0F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:10:31 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so998306pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:10:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WGAzeFGlPTAGTd88Duj5mHJj1lpj/YGw3fQMZCN91mE=; b=hmRusSJORgbKBb+MIt/XIV193BBEWS7Ev6TvalaGxivjotyH4fZ65M+QdhDGLK3FFc 4r93zJCJ89qsiCWPYALLgPNv8gls0yujQzcK4v3qUrfFnLegtr2TaSUgtCHUhSjOpctD c7+waAWnBKMjFV79rtSTC3lly5PvhhsSQpTv0= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr10141418pbv.6.1325808630300; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 16:10:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:09:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:09:49 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:10:33 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:32, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > FreeOffice. LibreOffice, I mean. Steel Bank Common Lisp. InkScape. Wireshark. ActivePerl. Bazaar. Dropbox. Apache. MySQL. GIMP... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 19:43:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RixuN-00050J-QB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:43:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42233) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixuK-0004yh-MZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:43:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixuJ-0005nd-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:43:44 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38070) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RixuI-0005nK-Vz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:43:43 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RixuH-0007R9-Qw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:43:41 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:43:41 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:43:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:43:26 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 54 Message-ID: <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9ubjHZ7fXZK/o6b4ehewIbwyE2A= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:43:45 -0000 On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:38:41 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : >> I meant Emacs, the software, not just its binary form. Forget the >> binaries; you and Lars are protesting a startup check that critical >> packages like GnuTLS are not out of date. JB> When you say that, you are not talking about gnutls.el, you are JB> talking about the GnuTLS binary, so no, I cannot forget the binaries. JB> That's the whole point of the discussion (at least, of the part of the JB> discussion I'm involved in). No, what I was proposing was a startup check that the "gnutls-critical" package is up to date, meaning what the user has installed is the latest on the GNU ELPA. This does not mean the latest GnuTLS is installed. The "gnutls-critical" package may do more afterwards, depending on the OS. On W32 it may trigger a patch eventually. At first it will just display a warning, as Chad suggested. On GNU/Linux I think it should leave the package management alone but still display a warning. >> I can't think of a better way to notify them that an Emacs component >> is out of date and possibly compromising their security. JB> The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". I think the C glue to GnuTLS is an Emacs component, deeply embedded. The point of an exploit is that it can cross the barrier between "not a component/not our problem" and "oh crap." On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:05:36 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> GnuTLS is not required to "adopt Emacs". I would say that, for a JB> Windows user, adding the image libraries would be more useful that JB> GnuTLS, because I bet most of them are not going to start using Emacs JB> to read e-mail or surf the web. I believe `open-network-stream' can use GnuTLS for HTTPS connections, which matters for a lot of cases, e.g. package.el. I agree about the image libraries, though, they should also be included in an installer. JB> But, as for "why not"... Why? Why us? Why cannot the people who is so JB> interested in doing it just set a side project to build an Emacs JB> installer, and be done with it? I need the "gnutls-critical" startup check or some other way to tell the user their GnuTLS version is at risk *by default*. This will be useful on Mac OS X as well in some cases, as I mentioned. That's all I need from emacs-devel (so Stefan or Chong's approval, I guess); the rest of the work will be on the GNU ELPA "gnutls-critical" package and a W32 installer, and does not need to involve anyone uninterested. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:00:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiyAM-0007It-H5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:00:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55353) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyAK-0007In-2R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:00:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyAI-0008Rv-T9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:00:16 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:48403) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyAI-0008RK-Lx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:00:14 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so1025140pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wwaLZ0Lt7wzmWbAAuHZ5noDh41CeS2+d0m5RC4NbMKE=; b=E5157rPlzgCPVkBSuWV1SXIxIKgGq5QAzS/V+I+GQck3YwTqRgDd+XUs3xKhpNB7M0 QH9aK/fXqYcWE+aiFVc0W1eN1xoCxMQzKI93eSgbM5O870SCPIGul413Q76/FPPQLu7o QLRCT3a5ktwZxKGbVK7rjt1rDyMOXayV8mXLw= Received: by 10.68.199.231 with SMTP id jn7mr10189023pbc.125.1325811613476; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:59:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:59:32 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:00:17 -0000 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > No, what I was proposing was a startup check that the "gnutls-critical" > package is up to date, meaning what the user has installed is the > latest on the GNU ELPA. At the end of the "gnutls-critical" chain, the intention is, either to update non-binaries (gnutls.c, gnutls.el), or binaries (the DLL). In the first case, I don't know why do we need such a special mechanism (security releases have been handled before, just by issuing a new release or an updated tarball); in the second case, you already know my objections, so I won't repeat them again. > The "gnutls-critical" package may do more afterwards, depending on the > OS. =C2=A0On W32 it may trigger a patch eventually. =C2=A0At first it wil= l just > display a warning, as Chad suggested. And then, we're going to implement something similar for image libraries, because they can also have security-related bugs. Aren't we? We could also make our own MinGW/MSYS distribution, for people that builds their own Windows Emacs. We would automatically upgrade it in case there's a security issue. And let's not forget binutils, and texinfo. Yes, I'm being facetious. Or not, I'm not sure anymore. > I think the C glue to GnuTLS is an Emacs component, deeply embedded. > The point of an exploit is that it can cross the barrier between "not a > component/not our problem" and "oh crap." Lots of code in Emacs calls external tools (from grep to nslookup to make). Anyone of them could turn into an "oh crap" moment. But we don't feel the impulse to distribute grep and make sure it is up to date. > I believe `open-network-stream' can use GnuTLS for HTTPS connections, > which matters for a lot of cases, e.g. package.el. I disagree with "a lot of cases". There are a few Emacs components that connect to the network, but it is perfectly possible (and, I think, even common) not to need them on Windows. >=C2=A0I agree about the image libraries, though, they should also be inclu= ded in an installer. As long as you say "an installer" and do not say "automatically check", I'm fine. > I need the "gnutls-critical" startup check or some other way to tell the > user their GnuTLS version is at risk *by default*. s/need/want/. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:05:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiyFZ-0008Tf-IV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:05:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyFW-0008T3-OG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:05:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyFU-0003Mf-U1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:05:38 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:37965) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyFU-0003MV-RJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:05:36 -0500 Received: by qabg40 with SMTP id g40so817741qab.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:05:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=DGYQpgpddMfyHykvlq00eghAAIB5tjG/T75UYLPtFbo=; b=qnI/AYlVuQ+FDdfGT2aIbntyZKTR2os+jTkcXrj22Sk6vFoey7LlGr+2B9NlSdE4kC usprZqbXZ+vKUHnDbPki4gLPZnQoiwq0rKV4oqS+pVwhUXeLh2YbQCcatgoAMJO6Q4aE L+66jmG9ecr8Q06GVdvqPzKbax40ebqDaGikI= Received: by 10.224.95.197 with SMTP id e5mr5391182qan.0.1325811936218; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.120] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4sm40278692qal.17.2012.01.05.17.05.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:05:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:05:32 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> To: Juanma Barranquero X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:05:40 -0000 On Jan 5, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:32, Juanma Barranquero = wrote: >=20 > LibreOffice, I mean. >=20 > Steel Bank Common Lisp. InkScape. Wireshark. ActivePerl. Bazaar. > Dropbox. Apache. MySQL. GIMP... DropBox updates itself without telling you: How do I upgrade to the latest version of the Dropbox = application? [...] Dropbox will silently update itself in the background. LibreOffice has automatic updates: http://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Online_Update Bazaar tells you to use your package manager (although not on Windows): Use your package manager to upgrade to the latest version. I stopped looking there. Most of those are typically (that is, for the typical = user/administrator) checked and managed by the operating system's = package manager, as far as I can tell. Sure, people can manage them by = hand (I have and still do myself), but that's certainly not *typical*. = When I still lived inside of GNU/Linux, I used kernel distributions only = long enough to configure and build my own, but I certainly don't expect = that kind of behavior from the typical Windows, Mac OS X, or Ubuntu = user. I also don't think it should be the default. As I understand it, = you seem to be saying that it should. To be clear: I'm asking you why you object to an easily-disabled system = that checks for the existence of updates deemed critical by a human = being, and warns the user if it finds them. I'm not talking about = distributing binaries (although there certainly are people who are = saying it would be convenient if someone did that, too). *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:13:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiyNY-0001vw-Kr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48701) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyNV-0001vc-Hj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyNU-0004er-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:53 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:39832) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyNT-0004el-Ug for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:13:52 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1006325dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:13:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iL57UAVK53DXgRNv3V7k8xNtCTEWACSQbpbYjlUduWY=; b=boVQcSHGbK24xqBo21BKXMuafpF66uOimwMaijBUDjbosB+6rtshKvkixedb1AqDoq MeWAo+ImYDzjZ4Bppg0OrNzpKMlqD59mw4nh/eC1gMYSvsKpT9XNQAB1IWV5LzTueilr ZIQ+f1ptAFL4hBnvvhBhDyzOaO4jyZsuh9lCc= Received: by 10.68.73.165 with SMTP id m5mr10324239pbv.108.1325812431156; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:13:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:13:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 02:13:10 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:13:54 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 02:05, chad wrote: > DropBox updates itself without telling you: > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How do I upgrade to the latest version of the = Dropbox application? > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...] Dropbox will silently update itself in t= he background. No. DropBox tells that, but it is false. This morning I had to manually upgrade it. Apparently it auto upgrades just for very minor changes, but not to pass from 1.1.X to 1.2.X. The same happens, for example, with ESET Smart Security: it updates the engine for minor changes, but when they switched from release 4 to release 5, it didn't even warn me. > LibreOffice has automatic updates: Not enabled by default: "Online Update is a module that can be selected or deselected to be installed. Choose the customized installation in the Setup of LibreOffice." > Bazaar tells you to use your package manager (although not on Windows): I'm glad we agree. > I stopped looking there. Please, continue. > To be clear: I'm asking you why you object to an easily-disabled system t= hat checks for the existence of updates deemed critical by a human being I don't object to that. I object to that being part of Emacs. By all means, build an installer for GnuTLS and put all automatic checking you want on it. Make it part of the Windows startup if you want. But don't make Emacs connect to Internet every time it starts just to check that yes, that GnuTLS that you are not really using for anything at all is still safe to use (or ignore). =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:24:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RiyXn-0003CO-Rj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:24:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47913) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyXk-0003AI-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:24:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyXj-0000Ha-HB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:24:28 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40223) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyXj-0000HH-AO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:24:27 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiyXi-0004it-4m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:24:26 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:24:26 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:24:26 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:24:14 +0100 Lines: 8 Message-ID: <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:GFmh06xFVOBjmYi8BBXtF0qZyxY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:24:29 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: [snip] Please note that notifying the user about security vulnerabilities and critical fixes has nothing to do with the source/binary discussion. Even on a source-only world, it is a nice (maybe the correct word nowadays would be "required") service to users to proactively inform them. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:44:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riyqk-0006En-CF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47135) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyqi-0006B6-7T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyqg-0005FB-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:04 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:44493) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyqg-0005Ey-PA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:02 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q061i0gW023782; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:44:01 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7783659414; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:44:00 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Leo Subject: Re: Hash functions for custom-safe-themes Message-ID: References: <87mxa2ct23.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:21:25 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4092=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4092> : streams <717125> : uri <1041449> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:44:05 -0000 > These new additions are small but quite handy. Do you think we can do it > for 24.1? No, Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 20:49:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Riyw1-0006pc-Uj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:49:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyvy-0006pW-BS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:49:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyvx-00017q-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:49:30 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:39310) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riyvx-00017g-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:49:29 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1025292dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:49:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9c88Z//qZcHqyR/1mXEMfOLS3R+7r0D1VQ9D+dFC85w=; b=nHeAS+uNbBY0nh4r7t5aV8RkiKootUFUCa5F2eqYIEFdpcIkIBEcCowrt2cE9G0QMm LSwujYoLBpqVFvPHn/gZNnj2enWDpetNrtHXcFS8GzWGSsPjLY1Haf97vOWZZ5AlHBtA TRLBLDMKZCwC9wo1QP4Ar7w3LsT00Pz4xs+b0= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr10719123pbv.40.1325814568164; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:49:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:48:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 02:48:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:49:32 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 02:24, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > Please note that notifying the user about security vulnerabilities and > critical fixes has nothing to do with the source/binary discussion. No, but the source/binary discussion is being swept under the carpet as if there were nothing to discuss and it was *evident* that we should distribute the binaries. Perhaps you have noticed that I disagree with that idea. > Even > on a source-only world, it is a nice (maybe the correct word nowadays > would be "required") service to users to proactively inform them. Yes. And I bet that in most source-only projects, like Emacs, the usual way is to put a notice in the project web page, publish an announcement in the relevant mailing lists and newsgroups, or send people an e-mail if they are subscribed to e-mail notifications. Which are perfectly fine ways to do it and won't get the tiniest objection from me. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 21:38:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rizh7-0003P5-Iy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:38:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49197) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rizh5-0003Oo-EQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:38:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rizh4-0002Mw-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:38:11 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35118) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rizh3-0002MP-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:38:10 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rizh0-00038c-N9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:38:06 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:38:06 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:38:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:37:50 +0100 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:GschF4lJYaSTjK/pNF8wf/9jS0M= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:38:12 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 02:24, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> Please note that notifying the user about security vulnerabilities and >> critical fixes has nothing to do with the source/binary discussion. > > No, but the source/binary discussion is being swept under the carpet > as if there were nothing to discuss and it was *evident* that we > should distribute the binaries. Perhaps you have noticed that I > disagree with that idea. I have no objections to your disagreement towards this and your POV wrt the Emacs project distributing binaries. Furthermore, if that's the sentiment on the rest of the w32 emacs people and the project leaders, I'll urge you to stop distributing MS Windows binaries. I'm pretty sure that there will be no shortage of Emacs binaries for MS Windows. >> Even >> on a source-only world, it is a nice (maybe the correct word nowadays >> would be "required") service to users to proactively inform them. > > Yes. And I bet that in most source-only projects, like Emacs, the > usual way is to put a notice in the project web page, publish an > announcement in the relevant mailing lists and newsgroups, or send > people an e-mail if they are subscribed to e-mail notifications. That's not proactive. I don't periodically visit the project the web page of all sensitive software I use searching for critical updates, nor subscribe to mailing lists, e-mail notifications (is there one for Emacs?) nor read newsgroups. That's totally unrealistic as it would take lots of time. Really, I can't see how you object to automatic checks for critical updates. Even less can I understand how you object to that feature in principle, not just as personal preference. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 22:09:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj0Bb-0001Ps-FB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:09:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46688) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0BY-0001N3-BR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:09:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0BW-0007U5-QA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:09:40 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:37809) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0BW-0007SK-Cv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:09:38 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1066832dak.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:09:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Egdg+EqnxU2cyrtVQWCM8SH0jKR3aY2c7Z1Ya6U4EsA=; b=oc14lfjPv0hBoDrffNTlIM1m+4k6+NcWKardY0H1bUPxqwfKZntP2ZOSfV0SDsPnec NB9UW8+mtBnGtdRc1BAdFt8GbEQlLiIN1o0jmItMZNrQPmWcjBkuLUhGs9iWtgcdLc5n lTGAGXG6pDP6Eb+K17mjB35nzqda/6By/MQCo= Received: by 10.68.73.165 with SMTP id m5mr11071320pbv.108.1325819377169; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:09:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:08:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 04:08:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:09:41 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 03:37, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > Furthermore, if that's the > sentiment on the rest of the w32 emacs people and the project leaders, > I'll urge you to stop distributing MS Windows binaries. I'm pretty sure > that there will be no shortage of Emacs binaries for MS Windows. Oh, I'm not against distributing our binaries. Emphasis in "our". > That's not proactive. What's the proactive way to do it in a source-only project? Are you suggesting that all projects do include some kind of run-time check? I already gave a short list of some software in my computer that does not take proactive action. I could add lots more, like git, mercurial, MinGW, Take Command, Python, Evernote, etc. Some of them have a menu option to check for updates, or installer programs with an update option, but they don't do it automatically. > Really, I can't see how you object to automatic checks for > critical updates. Because we don't have (or very rarely have) critical updates. Let GnuTLS announce their critical updates any way they see fit. > Even less can I understand how you object to that > feature in principle, not just as personal preference. It's a change from one model of development and distribution to another one. I like the way Emacs is right now. Source. You compile it, and have a binary that does not depend on some mythical, externally maintained resource. I don't like ELPA much, either, though I understand how can be useful. But I'm distressed by the impulse to move things from Emacs to ELPA. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 22:15:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj0HV-0002FR-7S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:15:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55535) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0HS-0002FL-Vg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:15:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0HR-0001Td-Lo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:15:46 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42343) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0HR-0001Sw-9H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:15:45 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0HN-0005j2-KN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:15:41 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:15:41 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:15:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:15:28 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87zke129sy.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEXZ1sH5+N8+OkJybGsK BxITEB0EAwqqpplPQ7p0AAACV0lEQVQ4jW2Sz27jIBDGcawVV2gPue6Og3xtQBb3CPIAjukTpDk7 tiJev99A3G5XO4pkMj+++ccI/R+TRL34aRWslC5C5rxmmM8rvs1foHfLYqnzzrvlCaRl4NxqBxo7 5zoLACR9XgBW562l0VkALyTyLCmxwjuXcRsKBPNZiL0BGIUs5t0K4KzPs1hMCjEBCCFb1MSAoJ5R 0xQCg1l8gc7lhlMUAALAfmdQdk5PwN2V6wWQX+GfNmDJEpF1aSRniyBw4fNagWPQrUVQFRvAZeqW TYGmSg4QQmMdmQoEFHP7BVIHXQml8ApNW4uyBbRVoUUjdFF0tgAvTAVsL1Tm7kab+n625guozBN2 c96jupzNtAGN97HdXa/SdG9SOTLfQFGvjgOd+qZpZX4EgadkKCTd1eUQgp91vi9p4jZgePle7wJi 51m5fAgTuuChyLwe1eNkLiYL1VpO3nCHZbvc0nu981qtpY8K0P1CGcncHy1MGUk1KdTgUMgr3XUb Yh1JAY0efNtoQ0f1q4Jtm9VAXaNkbubFbCCzoN2lN4Syd71XeZhK56X748tF5HlIvzEdhD7AKRko vW/202kwZoJQyUlo+36Z67weIQ54pPgmcBT7c0jk2f+KlLwIMfQSOV7D7SONfasVJhimiK5j4E18 ucFC7Dz7Q4rpNNU+CriGOBV/Mml8lGMBV/zO0IU04nqRVhDP15TOtziadA1PEzuAj/fI2xbCaL9B 4lDv+M/7d6LD7YnElZOfubKaHdnOXI24bYAZ6n6efgKuo342xbfFTfwvuJ6rIHwCkVQATg5F4S0A AAAASUVORK5CYII= Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Suzanne Vega's _Close-Up, Volume 1: Love Songs_: "Stockings" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:K9AU8DyOoBNisxCoS8ltKZrY6zs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:15:48 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > The user doesn't know, usually, that there's been a critical GnuTLS > release that affects them. Unlike normal updates, ignoring this can > actually compromise their security, not just corrupt or expose their > data. $ ssh gnu.org Checking for updates to ssh... please wait Apparently somebody has made a brute-force attack feasible against the encryption algorithm ssh was going to use against the remote server. Download and install a new version of ssh? > This is a crucial distinction. So I want Emacs to notify the > user their GnuTLS is out of date, or else something else should > (e.g. the self-contained GnuTLS updater for W32 I proposed). I don't really see that there's much of a difference between bugs in libgnutls and in the Emacs binary proper. If a major security hole was discovered in Emacs, then presumably a new Emacs release would be made. If a major libgnutls hole was discovered, then presumably someone would zip up a new Windows release. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 22:37:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj0cT-0004g0-JY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:37:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51717) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0cR-0004ei-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:37:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0cQ-0003m8-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:37:27 -0500 Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:53604) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0cQ-0003m4-FE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:37:26 -0500 Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so802496qcs.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:37:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=HGT5IGmb1piRXvXKNrPUOieeWzINFMqbM64W2pMUdOs=; b=ePeC6Q0kZfjL7hDLaDpyUYEFYupuk5VRzP0EUgL5kJ4hgL55NcxTjRj+97wW7v/+/g UwB1bPLfqU8IOAdveBD5EnDIbl1LG6K5H9cdXaI+41IQqeZ5ri/1VOFkKbGkt5ryMfI5 iQYJMIQbIvMBlzMFj/H447kGic+zcrG3g0m0c= Received: by 10.229.75.141 with SMTP id y13mr1574681qcj.135.1325821045826; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.120] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fe5sm94027030qab.5.2012.01.05.19.37.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 19:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:37:22 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19CD65EA-ADD7-40DC-AFD8-53375119BD1A@gmail.com> References: <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqey6m0o.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87zke129sy.fsf@lifelogs.com> To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:37:28 -0000 On Jan 5, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > If a major libgnutls hole was discovered, then presumably someone would > zip up a new Windows release. How would the users know to download it? *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 22:56:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj0um-0007bT-D4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:56:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33830) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0uj-0007bN-5D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:56:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0uh-0005XN-Jc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:56:21 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49429) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0uh-0005X7-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:56:19 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj0uf-0000Bw-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:56:17 +0100 Received: from 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.147.11.225]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:56:17 +0100 Received: from ofv by 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:56:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:56:05 +0100 Lines: 65 Message-ID: <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 225.red-79-147-11.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:5U+S5dTh8v3VdipFkjwhzJCrMa8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:56:22 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 03:37, Óscar Fuentes wrote: > >> Furthermore, if that's the >> sentiment on the rest of the w32 emacs people and the project leaders, >> I'll urge you to stop distributing MS Windows binaries. I'm pretty sure >> that there will be no shortage of Emacs binaries for MS Windows. > > Oh, I'm not against distributing our binaries. Emphasis in "our". Then I'm misunderstanding. IIRC you said, more or less: "we are a source code shop and MS Windows is an exception because those users would have a hard time getting an Emacs running on their machines". I fully sympathize with the "we are a source code shop", but at the same time I'll like to remark that the rest is no longer true. >> That's not proactive. > > What's the proactive way to do it in a source-only project? Are you > suggesting that all projects do include some kind of run-time check? We are on emacs-devel, not on all-projects-devel. But now that you ask, yes, I'll appreciate that all projects would include a system for notifying me that its software is putting my machine at risk. > I already gave a short list of some software in my computer that does > not take proactive action. I could add lots more, like git, mercurial, > MinGW, Take Command, Python, Evernote, etc. Some of them have a menu > option to check for updates, or installer programs with an update > option, but they don't do it automatically. The key here is to determine what the Right Thing is. Have you considered the possibility that some or most of those projects doesn't have the automatic notification not because they think it is a bad idea, but because some other reason? >> Really, I can't see how you object to automatic checks for >> critical updates. > > Because we don't have (or very rarely have) critical updates. That's like saying that smoke detectors are unneeded because fires rarely occur, if at all, on most housings. > Let GnuTLS announce their critical updates any way they see fit. > >> Even less can I understand how you object to that >> feature in principle, not just as personal preference. > > It's a change from one model of development and distribution to > another one. I like the way Emacs is right now. Source. You compile > it, and have a binary that does not depend on some mythical, > externally maintained resource. You are sidetracking from my question by going back to the GnuTLS dll. I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning for rejecting an automatic notification system built into Emacs. Something you can use to warn users that a problem was found that would pose a risk to their data (a security breach, data corruption, whatever). That's independent from how the user obtained its binary package. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 05 23:12:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj1AO-0001So-Ql for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:12:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52196) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj1AM-0001Si-Ig for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:12:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj1AL-0004Qp-9S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:12:30 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:37821) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj1AL-0004Ql-3X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:12:29 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so1125804pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:12:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wjIGf3I6Ab1dhEy//p1a4H9JHhe8oLOsn1C9lz3XrgI=; b=DoZl44IApwTfX76N6u1ldmwdmzGKwyCzG8mswbm0cGtIYKoVyLcNr+FMbspjdBmCZU SOTaDEq0uFuKMP21U92foPsDpA5a5uKVHNHgecMi4yGNZ2pxXZ2vPyVvN8XJw+AbTJO3 EKnkNg+ncp5p5xK2HJoq6NcU9V2p1xIiSAIng= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr11650235pbv.40.1325823148193; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:12:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:11:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 05:11:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:12:31 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 04:56, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > Then I'm misunderstanding. IIRC you said, more or less: "we are a source > code shop and MS Windows is an exception because those users would have > a hard time getting an Emacs running on their machines". I fully > sympathize with the "we are a source code shop", but at the same time > I'll like to remark that the rest is no longer true. I don't know what causes your misunderstanding. I would prefer not to distribute binaries, can accept distributing our own because they are useful, dislike the idea of distributing other project's binaries unless they are *strictly* required to run our Emacs binary. > We are on emacs-devel, not on all-projects-devel. You were the one talking about "source-only worlds". > But now that you ask, yes, I'll appreciate that all projects would > include a system for notifying me that its software is putting my > machine at risk. If GnuTLS has a security issue, I wouldn't say that Emacs puts my machine at risk. GnuTLS does. > The key here is to determine what the Right Thing is. Have you > considered the possibility that some or most of those projects doesn't > have the automatic notification not because they think it is a bad idea, > but because some other reason? Why the second guessing? I was told that almost all software packages today did automatic upgrading, and I mentioned some that do not. I don't know why they don't offer it, and neither do you. > That's like saying that smoke detectors are unneeded because fires > rarely occur, if at all, on most housings. Nonsense. It's like saying that a smoke detector is not needed in this particular house because it is built with fireproof materials and the likelihood of a fire is almost zero. Do you have an smoke detector in your home? I don't. I don't have a fire extinguisher, either. > You are sidetracking from my question by going back to the GnuTLS dll. No, I'm not. > I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning for rejecting an > automatic notification system built into Emacs. That's what I've answered. > Something you can use to > warn users that a problem was found that would pose a risk to their data > (a security breach, data corruption, whatever). That's independent from > how the user obtained its binary package. There are zillions of ways their data could be lost. Are you going to add a program to Emacs to test the hard drive for bad spots? That kind of checks (updates, I mean, not the disk test tool ;-) instill false security. It's like the people who has an AV installed and thinks that it is protected because the AV software has not detected anything. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 00:12:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj26C-0000vN-Vc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:12:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55079) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj269-0000u9-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:12:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj268-0006w8-Uh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:12:13 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:56492) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj268-0006w4-Qk; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:12:12 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so2407398iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:12:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QAo2jehtDYWQvFt6vyeAyXO+IEjZSocxSgoEAbZVIRI=; b=GR0+4Dz2c+vgXrscSwnc0Cd5HOP7+5WmJwJbxZ51I1nruDLBo/WwG3DLJeqNpPgV8z 0d97GbNd/50Nh2OXhdSOZ1rPusnOCST1tGxr893IWZf0jvoAe7XtS+w2nYaQJYT4/96w WImsOk5vbVstfiYUnAmapyxjwjy70y1xMxCxI= Received: by 10.43.131.196 with SMTP id hr4mr4544707icc.55.1325826731537; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (174-29-203-215.hlrn.qwest.net. [174.29.203.215]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id aq5sm127538470igc.5.2012.01.05.21.12.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:12:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F0682A7.20601@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:12:07 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel Subject: emacs-20120105-r106793 Windows Binaries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 05:12:14 -0000 The Emacs Trunk Windows Binaries (bzr revno 106793) have been published in http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 gnutls-3.0.9 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 00:49:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj2ga-0006DA-FH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:49:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35913) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj2gX-0006Cz-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:49:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj2gQ-0006fS-Q3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:49:49 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:57507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj2gQ-0006eP-Ep for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:49:42 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so2461243iac.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:49:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:mime-version:content-type:subject:date:in-reply-to:to :references:message-id:x-mailer; bh=scKG141AOfovdQSg6smjzgAQHKy08ed4YiFC9Fh9Mlw=; b=K3y7H5JY5ygX45b9wHBLoANGuqfhECozqJ8WeluKS3HQ9dJsMLYHvRyiBygEZFfHH3 o+9u2FVNVeXJYPg0caC2l2c2QsJDjP7MMgqWM9loVx+9kASgugCOeF9wcH3c91QV2aXg k3CVD8LBt9AgVxUfHChDMb2swiRFz/DX7XUzM= Received: by 10.50.47.229 with SMTP id g5mr5991167ign.23.1325828981801; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b20sm209813047ibj.7.2012.01.05.21.49.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 21:49:40 -0800 (PST) From: chad Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_92773529-7D3B-4A01-B543-56A332D874F5" Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:49:38 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Emacs developers References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> Message-Id: <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 05:49:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_92773529-7D3B-4A01-B543-56A332D874F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jan 5, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: >=20 > Why the second guessing? I was told that almost all software packages > today did automatic upgrading, and I mentioned some that do not. I > don't know why they don't offer it, and neither do you. I suspect the answer is ``most of them do, either built in to the app, = via a default package system, and/or via the operating system''. You > Do you have an smoke detector in your home? I don't. I don't have a > fire extinguisher, either. I do, as does basically everyone I know. They're required in various = ways here in the US. Perhaps we're ruining it for the rest of you. :) Regardless, you have made it clear that you object to oranges because = they might someday turn into apples. To be explicit, here is the = `sweeping under the carpet' to which you have repeatedly voiced = objection: On Jan 4, 2012, at 3:16 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > I really like your suggestion. It lets us write the DLL deployment = code > later or never, depending on what users want, but at first we will = only > do the acceptable minimum. It can also work with a standalone GnuTLS > W32 installer, if we ever decide that's a better approach. Apparently `later or never' is too much like `evident that we should' = for you. *Chad --Apple-Mail=_92773529-7D3B-4A01-B543-56A332D874F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Why the second = guessing? I was told that almost all software packages
today did = automatic upgrading, and I mentioned some that do not. I
don't know = why they don't offer it, and neither do = you.

I suspect the answer is = ``most of them do, either built in to the app, via a default package = system, and/or via the operating system''. =  You

Do you have an smoke = detector in your home? I don't. I don't have a
fire extinguisher, = either.

I do, as does = basically everyone I know.  They're required in various ways here = in the US. Perhaps we're ruining it for the rest of you. = :)

Regardless, you have made it clear that you = object to oranges because they might someday turn into apples.  To = be explicit, here is the `sweeping under the carpet' to which you have = repeatedly voiced objection:

On Jan 4, = 2012, at 3:16 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
I really like your suggestion.  It lets us write the = DLL deployment code
later or never, depending on what users want, but = at first we will only
do the acceptable minimum.  It can also = work with a standalone GnuTLS
W32 installer, if we ever decide that's = a better approach.

Apparently = `later or never' is too much like `evident that we should' for = you.

*Chad


= --Apple-Mail=_92773529-7D3B-4A01-B543-56A332D874F5-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 02:12:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj3yc-0007da-6f for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:12:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52579) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3yZ-0007dU-VA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:12:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3yZ-0003c4-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:12:31 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:50630) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3yZ-0003by-1Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:12:31 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXD00H0078JST00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:12:29 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.16.185]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXD00HYT80SU220@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:12:29 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:10:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <838vllpaql.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:12:33 -0000 > From: Richard Riley > Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:55:46 +0100 > > >> I can't think of a better way to > >> notify them that an Emacs component is out of date and possibly > >> compromising their security. > > > > The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". > > Silly word play. It's a required component for Emacs in the context of > this discussion. As are grep, find, ls, ispell/aspell, and many others. That way lies madness. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 02:13:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj3zy-0007zd-Ci for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:13:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53055) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3zv-0007zT-V4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:13:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3zv-00049a-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:13:55 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:55815) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj3zu-00049G-SK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:13:55 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXD00H007XCLC00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:13:53 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.16.185]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXD00H4Z834EKA0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:13:53 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:11:50 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <837h15pao9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:13:56 -0000 > From: Richard Riley > Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:58:23 +0100 > > The distribution should have everything the user might *optionally* > want. You are either not serious or didn't think about the consequences of this approach. On any system that is not GNU/Linux, this will require us to package half of the GNU project into the binary distro. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 02:14:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj40n-0008JM-HO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:14:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj40l-0008JG-AQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:14:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj40k-0005B3-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:14:47 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:55889) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj40k-0005AI-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:14:46 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXD00H007XCLC00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:14:45 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.16.185]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXD00HBR84KEKA0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:14:45 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:12:42 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-reply-to: <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: chad Message-id: <8362gppamt.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:14:48 -0000 > From: chad > Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:49:38 -0800 > > > Do you have an smoke detector in your home? I don't. I don't have a > > fire extinguisher, either. > > I do, as does basically everyone I know. They're required in various ways here in the US. Perhaps we're ruining it for the rest of you. :) Then I suggest that the check for updates be turned on by default for US locales. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 04:58:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj6ZO-0001dK-HT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:58:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50855) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj6ZK-0001ce-Ro for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:58:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj6ZI-0000D0-Vy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:58:38 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:37874) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj6ZI-0008Uv-Hv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:58:36 -0500 Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id hq12so1382756wib.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:58:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YvNCqIx2fSSvH2KdWIpKfFkNJlcRJjg6CUOPiomsCyY=; b=pqhEk+6bj55ipGlqH8kA6z+UY2Cvzsf/igncjOnA0Pr7Cc43i9yRzM2nG8IAyFHNWw in9BwDiCIz/l7d9auX3p6n9zTOdJhtQ/4ozhfNxLxqZ1j2+QhpFwzuR6IQUJpN7212jD 6fR68oEQNm1A3CaDxezwXUkSGkdIV8B7iuB+Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.107.134 with SMTP id hc6mr10087104wib.21.1325843915568; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.170.138 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:58:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6F8FEE75-2ED4-45A7-85B9-305EE51B5A04@swipnet.se> References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <6F8FEE75-2ED4-45A7-85B9-305EE51B5A04@swipnet.se> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:58:35 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: emacs user To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:58:40 -0000 things seem to be a bit better with aquamacs 2.4, where some memory is retu= rned. On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Jan Dj=E4rv wrote: > Hello. > > I see this increase also. =A0Memory does not seem to be given back to the= system on OSX. > Maybe we should try using gmalloc on OSX. =A0There is problem however, th= e unexec for OSX > uses a special malloc for temacs and the normal one for the dumped emacs.= =A0I'm not even sure gmalloc > works on OSX. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jan D. > > 5 jan 2012 kl. 07:13 skrev emacs user: > >> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:44 PM, emacs user wrot= e: >>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:39 AM, Stefan Monnier >>> >>>> The GC stats you posted indicate that the GC knows of about 27MB of da= ta >>>> (10MB of which is actually unused but can't be returned to malloc due = to >>>> fragmentation) which doesn't account for the 214MB you mention. =A0So = it >>>> looks like that data is held by the C code. >>>> >>>> Of course, I don't know what the 214MB represent, if it is resident se= t >>>> size, then there really seems to be a leak, whereas if it's the total >>>> virtual size, it may also be an artifact of various other things. >>>> >>>> >>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Stefan >>> >>> here is something which I am hoping is reproducible by others: >>> download >>> http://emacsforosx.com/emacs-builds/Emacs-2011-12-23-universal-10.6.8.d= mg >>> save to desktop. >>> >>> start emacs: >>> $ ~/Desktop/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -Q& >>> >>> create a file that contains the following line many times >>> asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf asdf a= sdf >>> $ wc t : =A0687456 10311840 52246656 t >>> $ ls -l t: -rw------- =A01 x =A0staff =A052246656 Dec 23 05:08 t >>> >>> edit it using the above emacs. >>> kill all buffers, do M-x garbage-collect >>> >>> look at the process: >>> >>> =A0$ ps -vefl | head -1 >>> =A0PID STAT =A0 =A0 =A0TIME =A0SL =A0RE PAGEIN =A0 =A0 =A0VSZ =A0 =A0RS= S =A0 LIM =A0 =A0 TSIZ >>> %CPU %MEM COMMAND =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0UID =A0PPID =A0 C STIME =A0 TT= Y =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 F >>> PRI NI WCHAN =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ADDR >>> >>> before editing the file: >>> $ ps -vefl | grep 62764 >>> 62764 S =A0 =A0 =A00:00.78 =A0 0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A00 =A02571020 =A030852= =A0 =A0 - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A00 >>> 0.3 =A00.7 /Users/xxx/Deskt =A0 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 =A0 =A0 =A04= 006 >>> 49 =A00 - =A0 =A0 =A0ffffff8012762000 >>> >>> after editing it, killing the buffer, and doing M-x garbage-collect >>> =A0$ ps -vefl | grep 62764 >>> 62764 S =A0 =A0 =A00:01.85 =A0 0 =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A00 =A02625752 =A083036= =A0 =A0 - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A00 >>> 0.6 =A02.0 /Users/xxx/Deskt =A0 501 62068 0 5:38AM ttys001 =A0 =A0 =A04= 006 >>> 48 =A00 - =A0 =A0 =A0ffffff8012762000 >>> >>> I am running on Lion, Macbook Air. =A0does this help? >> >> just in case this is helpful, I see the same increase in RSS using >> emacs 23.3 too, but not under linux. =A0is this a problem, or is this >> increase in RSS normal? > From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 06:10:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj7hF-0008Sm-8Q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:10:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36227) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj7hC-0008QC-6C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:10:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj7hB-0000cS-3A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:10:50 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:58310) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj7hB-0000cJ-03 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:10:49 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so2931546iac.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:10:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pMtJy23SXIiHOkzWsw7ZuK24STiMwM/o+rPRdb+7ZNE=; b=Pz6UweFXzqo3B47TC1V86Exr0qKewsK8oanBDjqzWrGlaydENoBto0DsKiXnxHlPcr 1jT/7mY04wjcDgLaufDoi9Df9kI9CYt8EnLgsMzi+THbn8yEsB5+jFGu9qfqoeVAU95S DD2L1Vd8HWHs9VmK5LyoY7hAXffJE40g2tFfM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.163.101 with SMTP id yh5mr6814207igb.29.1325848247987; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 03:10:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <6F8FEE75-2ED4-45A7-85B9-305EE51B5A04@swipnet.se> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:10:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: Carsten Mattner To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:10:51 -0000 > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Jan Dj=E4rv wrote: > Hello. > > I see this increase also. =A0Memory does not seem to be given back to the= system > on OSX. Maybe we should try using gmalloc on OSX. =A0There is problem how= ever, > the unexec for OSX uses a special malloc for temacs and the normal one fo= r the > dumped emacs. =A0I'm not even sure gmalloc works on OSX. Count me in for any testing of experimental changes. It would be best to use a common scriptlet for collecting the statistics to compare. Jan, thanks again for fixing the crashes I was seeing. So far no crashes, even with Ido enabled, encountered. Fingers crossed. Huge thanks! From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 07:36:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rj91n-00027k-HQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:36:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47074) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj91l-00025T-7L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:36:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj91k-0008Du-BD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:36:09 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:49085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rj91e-0008DB-LQ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:36:02 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1373035dak.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:36:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nyKFQHdJYeigzLZ+vm9MrKxIORT/RH4tbsG6MCc0rjQ=; b=ko1CPIDQ+lAXC5E/qDBV7Zl+ONl9ihOM6PmFpPHxA21AzKoriEQ+WJynDI5MfYSGPv d+DDFhk0yrWtTopY0p+evLtoaEmwia5hrgVM7lB1AED58pgjQbM/kTc/9pBLR+VlNAY/ PLT4pf7eq3jkzAAO1AvKpEYzrc7sapfB60MS4= Received: by 10.68.73.68 with SMTP id j4mr15267161pbv.40.1325853361232; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:36:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 04:35:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8362gppamt.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> <8362gppamt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 13:35:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: chad , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 12:36:10 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 08:12, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Then I suggest that the check for updates be turned on by default for > US locales. +1 :-) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 08:39:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjA1P-0008RY-V1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:39:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43011) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjA1N-0008Pp-I1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:39:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjA1M-0004S6-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:39:49 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:64617) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjA1M-0004S1-5c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:39:48 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so1440410pbd.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 05:39:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qzpJik+/vJeQEV+luDORATBULQ8b822gi0aYyWfUgMU=; b=A9y82eCFtmhyZZukVFOK01IHEAtJ5m1E3ToU3+kr/W5d3ieaFc04xz2UmdpnUtL3CO 0ja693LPYEoyvZgGx/w7j5591Al0Y9pdKrDgdwfhd5jadIq0yeXXNyT6hT7PsiD+wcyZ 1Kvh82F6JHrGn/kCX36j3HFInNiScIj2jEXmk= Received: by 10.68.72.198 with SMTP id f6mr15686387pbv.6.1325857187199; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 05:39:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 05:39:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:39:05 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: chad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 13:39:50 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 06:49, chad wrote: > I suspect the answer is ``most of them do, either built in to the app, vi= a a > default package system, and/or via the operating system''. Please tell me of a software project whose security issues would be more far reaching that Apache. And still, not a single Apache I've ever installed has tried to automatically check for updates. > Regardless, you have made it clear that you object to oranges because the= y > might someday turn into apples. No. I object to oranges because, last time I checked, we were in the business of selling seafood, not vegetables and fruit. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 09:09:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjATz-00058d-TL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:09:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35768) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjATt-00053G-1M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:09:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjATm-00037g-L1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:09:17 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40684) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjATm-00037T-Ap for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:09:10 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjATk-0002r4-Sh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:09:08 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:09:08 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:09:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:08:54 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 130 Message-ID: <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LWVjKEpuTUdJZUcASESqkQbz1X8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:09:20 -0000 On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:59:32 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : >> No, what I was proposing was a startup check that the "gnutls-critical" >> package is up to date, meaning what the user has installed is the >> latest on the GNU ELPA. JB> At the end of the "gnutls-critical" chain, the intention is, either to JB> update non-binaries (gnutls.c, gnutls.el), or binaries (the DLL). The intention is to do whatever is appropriate on the platform to let the user know they need to update and make the update easy. >> The "gnutls-critical" package may do more afterwards, depending on the >> OS. On W32 it may trigger a patch eventually. At first it will just >> display a warning, as Chad suggested. JB> And then, we're going to implement something similar for image JB> libraries, because they can also have security-related bugs. Aren't JB> we? I'm not. The risk is not worth the effort with image libraries. The risk outweighs the effort with GnuTLS, in my opinion. >> I think the C glue to GnuTLS is an Emacs component, deeply embedded. >> The point of an exploit is that it can cross the barrier between "not a >> component/not our problem" and "oh crap." JB> Lots of code in Emacs calls external tools (from grep to nslookup to JB> make). Anyone of them could turn into an "oh crap" moment. But we JB> don't feel the impulse to distribute grep and make sure it is up to JB> date. You're ignoring the "deeply embedded" part. Obviously external utilities are not able to compromise Emacs like internal C glue. Can you stick to comparable components like the libxml2 glue? >> I believe `open-network-stream' can use GnuTLS for HTTPS connections, >> which matters for a lot of cases, e.g. package.el. JB> I disagree with "a lot of cases". There are a few Emacs components JB> that connect to the network, but it is perfectly possible (and, I JB> think, even common) not to need them on Windows. If you don't think the package manager is important to our users, you've got your head stuck in the sand. >> I need the "gnutls-critical" startup check or some other way to tell the >> user their GnuTLS version is at risk *by default*. JB> s/need/want/. I appreciate your attention to detail, but "need" is the verb I meant to write there. On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 04:15:28 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> The user doesn't know, usually, that there's been a critical GnuTLS >> release that affects them. Unlike normal updates, ignoring this can >> actually compromise their security, not just corrupt or expose their >> data. LMI> $ ssh gnu.org LMI> Checking for updates to ssh... please wait LMI> Apparently somebody has made a brute-force attack feasible against LMI> the encryption algorithm ssh was going to use against the remote server. LMI> Download and install a new version of ssh? Are we talking GNU/Linux, where the package manager will handle this update? Or, say, Putty on W32, where such an auto-update makes more sense (I don't know if Putty updates itself but that's not the point)? SSH clients are not extensible layout engines with embedded interpreters and flexible package managers. As I keep saying, compare Emacs to Firefox and Chrome, not to `vim' or `ssh' and `grep'. It hasn't been just an editor in a long while. Eclipse is another good comparison point. But you raise an interesting point: even without client updates, the server admin may disable the algorithm (manually or through a sshd_config update), and the SSH protocol will try another algorithm as configured on both sides. And what if there's no algorithm they can agree upon? The connection fails mysteriously. So yes, it matters to the user sometimes that an algorithm has been compromised. >> This is a crucial distinction. So I want Emacs to notify the >> user their GnuTLS is out of date, or else something else should >> (e.g. the self-contained GnuTLS updater for W32 I proposed). LMI> I don't really see that there's much of a difference between bugs in LMI> libgnutls and in the Emacs binary proper. If a major security hole was LMI> discovered in Emacs, then presumably a new Emacs release would be made. LMI> If a major libgnutls hole was discovered, then presumably someone would LMI> zip up a new Windows release. I just want a way to tell the users about it. I don't care how we deliver the update, if at all. That should depend on the OS and as I said should not be done by emacs-devel. On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 05:11:47 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> If GnuTLS has a security issue, I wouldn't say that Emacs puts my JB> machine at risk. GnuTLS does. That's oversimplifying the problem, but yes, this is the fundamental question. I think, considering how Emacs is used and positioned as a software package, we should take responsibility to notify the user on the W32 platform and maybe on Mac OS X. Probably not on GNU/Linux, since we can assume on that platform the package manager's policies are what the user wants, even if those policies put the user at risk. This is my personal opinion. You and Lars are clearly against that approach. I won't make any changes to Emacs in this direction until either you're convinced otherwise, or the maintainers make a decision. JB> Are you going to add a program to Emacs to test the hard drive for JB> bad spots? That kind of checks (updates, I mean, not the disk test JB> tool ;-) instill false security. I was planning on that next. How did you know? JB> It's like the people who has an AV installed and thinks that it is JB> protected because the AV software has not detected anything. No, it's not like that at all. Intrusion detection and security advisories are completely different things. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 09:28:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjAmY-00022Z-86 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:28:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54248) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAmS-0001ie-VN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:28:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAmR-000788-16 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:28:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42468) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAmQ-000784-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:28:26 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-176-96.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.176.96]:34073 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAmP-0007KK-Rm; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:28:26 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs user Subject: Re: Memory again References: Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:28:17 +0800 In-Reply-To: (emacs user's message of "Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:51:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87lipkoqgu.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:28:33 -0000 emacs user writes: > For whatever it's worth, I need to kill my emacs (GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 > x86_64-apple-darwin11.2.0, NS apple-appkit-1138.23) several times a > day when it reached over 300mb or it will crash. This memory usage is > *after* I kill all buffers and do M-x garbage collect. I submitted a > couple of bug reports, please see > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2011-12/msg00404.html > am happy to do additional tests if anyone could guide me. Is your Emacs compiled with GnuTLS support? If so, could you check if it makes a difference compiling it without GnuTLS support? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 09:36:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjAuE-0003YC-5G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:36:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59573) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAuB-0003Xq-Rr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:36:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAuA-0000Vs-Db for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:36:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:64394) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjAuA-0000Ve-8s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 09:36:26 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1450503dak.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MqzqI6rl7vFoKX6vyI/rPBtGh6lDeUKN9AS0ukimct0=; b=wgk5NoAlK+vF0KL9zq6/BmB92LBpzwsvZstrUYp4SniWQ9HTriQ4J7tKbK3kUVLzda NWbMENOrYJw5waZqzJhGviLB9cKqAxP4xJ7LwyuavU/7zdwC2ULYXv1AadASbeLqV03I UMl0Xjinnx+nJQpNi8BOqs7TNaCLAZbybo/P8= Received: by 10.68.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr15884330pbv.57.1325860585186; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 06:36:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 06:35:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:35:44 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:36:29 -0000 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > The intention is to do whatever is appropriate on the platform to let > the user know they need to update and make the update easy. There's no single, general definition of "appropriate". > I'm not. =C2=A0The risk is not worth the effort with image libraries. I don't understand why. Buffer overruns exploited through carefully-crafted images have been used before. I would fear that (as a vector for malware) much more than someone eavesdropping my communications. > You're ignoring the "deeply embedded" part. =C2=A0Obviously external > utilities are not able to compromise Emacs like internal C glue. =C2=A0Ca= n > you stick to comparable components like the libxml2 glue? See the image libraries comment above. > If you don't think the package manager is important to our users, you've > got your head stuck in the sand. I don't know about "our" users, but certainly is unimportant to many Emacs users (starting with myself). And, please, let's not turn this discussion into a description of the relative positions of our respective heads or other body parts. > I appreciate your attention to detail, but "need" is the verb I meant to > write there. I don't doubt it. My correction turned what you said into what I believe is real. > SSH clients are not extensible layout engines with embedded interpreters > and flexible package managers. =C2=A0As I keep saying, compare Emacs to > Firefox and Chrome, not to `vim' or `ssh' and `grep'. =C2=A0It hasn't bee= n > just an editor in a long while. =C2=A0Eclipse is another good comparison > point. Compare it to Apache, which can be infinitely extended via external modules and it's mission-critical for so many business. > That's oversimplifying the problem, but yes, this is the fundamental > question. You think it's an oversimplification, I think it's approaching it in a realistic way. > I was planning on that next. =C2=A0How did you know? With the head under the sand I had plenty of time to think, and I started having premonitions. > No, it's not like that at all. =C2=A0Intrusion detection and security > advisories are completely different things. I thought it was evident I was not comparing situations, but inadequate feelings of security. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 10:35:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjBp1-0006QH-Ck for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:35:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39394) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjBoy-0006OY-D7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:35:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjBhE-0001iF-OZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:27:26 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57545) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjBhE-0001ha-BD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:27:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjBhB-000694-PL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:27:05 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:27:05 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:27:05 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:26:17 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 41 Message-ID: <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9NBigaZqyUqUGahRAh8vih7ytYw= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:35:09 -0000 On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:35:44 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : >> I'm not. The risk is not worth the effort with image libraries. JB> I don't understand why. Buffer overruns exploited through JB> carefully-crafted images have been used before. I would fear that (as JB> a vector for malware) much more than someone eavesdropping my JB> communications. I don't think those are as risky, but even if I did it doesn't really support your point. >> SSH clients are not extensible layout engines with embedded interpreters >> and flexible package managers. As I keep saying, compare Emacs to >> Firefox and Chrome, not to `vim' or `ssh' and `grep'. It hasn't been >> just an editor in a long while. Eclipse is another good comparison >> point. JB> Compare it to Apache, which can be infinitely extended via external JB> modules and it's mission-critical for so many business. That's a very tough comparison. I'm listing "extensible layout engines with embedded interpreters and flexible package managers" which Apache has never been, never mind that it's not interactive with the user since it's a daemon. >> No, it's not like that at all. Intrusion detection and security >> advisories are completely different things. JB> I thought it was evident I was not comparing situations, but JB> inadequate feelings of security. Yes, I understood your point. While you're right that AV software can provide a false feeling of security, security advisories do not provide a feeling of security at all. They let you know when your security is at risk. None of my proposal aims to make users feel secure, but rather to tell them when they are not. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 10:48:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjC26-00024y-QF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:48:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC24-00024n-4N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:48:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC22-0005wi-JV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:48:40 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:65304) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC22-0005te-9V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:48:38 -0500 Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so1500166dak.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:48:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DFB8n3ssUa9Y3sZpFxG9LWi/iLa1XBbMq/As8A0r098=; b=pMtC5P4T/EvoTrjYlUoDNxdKVtKWDZxwNX/1h+Sl6P/OWQ8uK+v0FIdFfy7SYLzaYQ fjsOI8dnP/CkO3JMt3+mpmOjpxh4h0at/g4RnJNn+TsFigAGbd2RlZtx8Alwj1TxaSrd NKrmC6Pg4LsrnVudqGHr6HN/hOw8qg9/HB6T0= Received: by 10.68.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr16300275pbv.57.1325864917181; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:48:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 07:47:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:47:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:48:41 -0000 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > I don't think those are as risky, but even if I did it doesn't really > support your point. It does support my point that if we do it for GnuTLS, we should do it for other libraries. Of course, I believe we shouldn't. > That's a very tough comparison. =C2=A0I'm listing "extensible layout engi= nes > with embedded interpreters and flexible package managers" which Apache > has never been, never mind that it's not interactive with the user since > it's a daemon. It could still check and write a log entry for the administrator. Or it could have a module, accessible only to some authenticated user, that listed recommended upgrades. It doesn't. And it's not necessarily a daemon. You can start it in batch mode to check things. It could have an option to check upgrades in that case. It doesn't, either. > None of my proposal aims to make users feel secure, but rather > to tell them when they are not. And, as soon as they have upgraded, the users feel secure again. Particularly on Windows, where most people is not very security-conscious. Anyway, I think the dead equine has been beaten to a pulp and turned into fertilizer. We don't really advance anything rehashing the same arguments again and again, IMHO. YMMV. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 10:53:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjC75-0006j0-4C for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:53:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33861) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC72-0006aH-GM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:53:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC71-0006lP-4L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:53:48 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:35037) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC6z-0006kD-HJ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:53:45 -0500 Received: by werf1 with SMTP id f1so1577864wer.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:53:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JHHx952sfh6qJXL0f68Sc8C3ddHKOWDLJSGyTb1QZcs=; b=Md1t2jtcgMVtpXXBcRtyJJCCHFuZAwv0pizUjQ7WBk9HOLSOnFfb9VPRLcvJoSp9j2 eeqP3eyiMqJJCMxKZ5PzIYFCjawhyz4uaCy7VS2oKlh7bnTqq3qn+BA0Ax1kzhayLeC1 zGfQrTmInhC/HniHxvwFYbmmbydPnJGTkNzd8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.139.156 with SMTP id c28mr3351899wej.34.1325865224489; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.170.138 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 07:53:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lipkoqgu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87lipkoqgu.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:53:44 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: emacs user To: Chong Yidong Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:53:49 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > emacs user writes: > >> For whatever it's worth, I need to kill my emacs (GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 >> x86_64-apple-darwin11.2.0, NS apple-appkit-1138.23) several times a >> day when it reached over 300mb or it will crash. =A0This memory usage is >> *after* I kill all buffers and do M-x garbage collect. =A0I submitted a >> couple of bug reports, please see >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2011-12/msg00404.html >> am happy to do additional tests if anyone could guide me. > > Is your Emacs compiled with GnuTLS support? =A0If so, could you check if > it makes a difference compiling it without GnuTLS support? I tried: cd /usr/local/emacs/trunk; make clean; ./autogen.sh; ./configure --with-ns --without_gnutls; make install and this still leads to RSS growing even if I kill all buffers, and then to a crash. all it takes to see and reproduce this is to edit a large file, kill it, and see that memory does not reduce back even after M-x garbage-collect. Please see http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-01/msg00206.html and note that aquamacs based on 23.3 does not seem to have this problem. please let me know if there is anything else I can do. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 10:54:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjC7w-0007kL-F4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:54:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39817) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC7r-0007Y5-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:54:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC7p-0007E4-AZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:54:38 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:53839) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjC7p-0007DG-4w; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:54:37 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q06FsKx7014927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:54:21 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06FsJ0o021606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:54:20 GMT Received: from abhmt101.oracle.com (abhmt101.oracle.com [141.146.116.53]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q06FsJre020957; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:54:19 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.38.9) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 07:54:18 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Glenn Morris'" , <10385-done@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 07:54:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Thread-Index: AczMSs+hvQtaWh6GRD+Wq/BfekDpCgAPf7Uw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F071937.0088,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:54:43 -0000 > Karl Berry wrote: > > > In info-mode, I suggest that e would be more usefully bound to > > end-of-buffer (following the binding for b) than Info-edit ... > > Just an idea. > > Sounds good to me. Done. That is not the way to make key-binding decisions for Emacs. It should be proposed on emacs-devel, open for possible discussion. And then the Emacs maintainers should decide. That said, I personally have no objection to our changing the binding of `e' to `end-of-buffer'. But, like you AFAIK, I do not decide alone. Consider too that `Info-edit' has been bound to `e' for decades - just as long as `b' has been bound to `beginning-of-buffer'. Clearly that choice of bindings was not simply an oversight or accident. Those who decided this originally surely thought about it - `e' corresponding to `b' is an obvious thing to consider. And yet they decided the way they did. Anyone can make mistakes, and minds can change with addtional reflection and experience, but let's give the original authors of this some credit at least. It should not be up to one person responding to a bug report/enhancement request to change such a binding willy nilly because it "sounds good" to him. Think how many key binding and other enhancement proposals are languishing in the `wishlist' bin. This one should get in line there with the others. Or else it should be brought up in emacs-devel for discussion. The proposal to emacs-devel would be posed as related questions: 1. Should `e' be bound to `end-of-buffer' instead of `Info-edit' in Info? 2. If so, what, if anything, should `Info-edit' be bound to? And if user-visible changes _are_ decided on then they should be mentioned in NEWS. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 11:10:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjCNZ-00038J-8W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:10:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjCNW-00038D-Pb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:10:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjCNV-0001rh-TG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:10:50 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:38821) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjCNV-0001rd-LY; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:10:49 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXD00K00WO51R00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:09:54 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.115.90]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXD00J42WWESPC0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:09:51 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:07:48 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:10:51 -0000 > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 07:54:16 -0800 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Consider too that `Info-edit' has been bound to `e' for decades - just as long > as `b' has been bound to `beginning-of-buffer'. > > Clearly that choice of bindings was not simply an oversight or accident. Those > who decided this originally surely thought about it - `e' corresponding to `b' > is an obvious thing to consider. AFAIK, that binding and its command go back to when there was no makeinfo to produce Info from the Texinfo sources, and Info files were created by hand. That time is long gone. That said, I agree that the change should have been preceded by an attempt to see at least whether there are any objections. > And if user-visible changes _are_ decided on then they should be mentioned in > NEWS. I agree. There is such a NEWS entry about this particular change. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 11:50:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjD0H-0007Mj-6h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43391) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjD0E-0007KF-BM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjD0C-0000du-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:50 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:58826) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjD0C-0000dZ-D4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:48 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjD0A-00052v-RA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:50:46 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:50:46 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:50:46 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:31 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 10 Message-ID: <87aa60yduw.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:glckWcKYz2DVzif4cFpwNhtXSrI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:50:51 -0000 On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:47:56 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> Anyway, I think the dead equine has been beaten to a pulp and turned JB> into fertilizer. We don't really advance anything rehashing the same JB> arguments again and again, IMHO. YMMV. I appreciate your opinions and hope we can find some middle ground that will satisfy everyone's expectations. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 13:48:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjEpr-0006C5-Az for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 13:48:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjEpo-0006BI-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 13:48:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjEpn-0002b3-9p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 13:48:12 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:37183) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjEpn-0002al-4L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 13:48:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjEpl-0002Ok-Dt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:48:09 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:48:09 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:48:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: "Snippet" database Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:47:58 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 12 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEUAL6grS7fBo+oAHpb+ zP7+0f7+x/4AJ5/DItk6AAACE0lEQVQ4jXWUTY+jMAyGAa3olURdeoUo4rwrDj0vcnIflHBuUcZn upWGv7824aMzu2upavU+9etgOyTtdZ6SGKfkNQjMyb+i/Y+eHFbzV/BbcdTiJaLVByIAWMRAX94P GPqYkTNwhFj23gbsYkaOUEsCARzpvdK+X61C14waICY4328gR1tL2ICvyxcwNlzBsD6YYQXXD0Cl 9J5Sn48aMCpSTYhe/gWAJ9AJ/Teg0wIa8xnkgeWt+AGunMEgRODMboVLF1VYlS/zmBICw5d58ERS QcDFXHXMAynAOA/eOHB2LU6iZeC5uwT8AWABy3mNcyvgCQYGgYx6NVLb7D6ogHcxcmfekntWwp4B VXbPbgz6tFNnBqelRqiysbxpBg10BE60SwygU9hUZwIDFQgETnPsVQMIY0nHGlLOwA2gCPQ3C06D 6MZvlEF9aluqUWgEVQQnQVbqBaAMgEVyJiNVyA3wJupx1FXW9ImupikHO8/xVHhP7+ktgz4Lt0ls gK0ujyopMugy+CVVDriCYC+TKEQqO2XrsyXrvfhFyKquMk9PGrCEAwh++LfvxlpUglZ2ryG7AO+9 9tR8iaXFHaTWOJ4Srx0coGlODZhlTQ198qaJ4CHSeeIrKZWs6Zam6SMCCl6heaazHBHBj5TfGAWv V0KYXhZtBD/Z6RLveEGg3QCbHVaLsAEizyjOz+cnwLFoz/j7D4mVCaX0ZRJQAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Bill Wells's _Lemondale_: "Courtin' Love" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:0veZLtaoIAfc4WQQOei79uU4nJI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:48:13 -0000 In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email answer to many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It would be nice if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it into a database of snippets, and then have a command that would insert them again. Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't seem to find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 14:08:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjF9j-0005Kf-UV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:08:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53170) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjF9h-0005FY-2s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:08:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjF9e-0006PS-C1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:08:45 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:19244) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjF9e-0006Ot-7E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:08:42 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q06J8epM012975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:08:41 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06J8d5u020474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:08:39 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q06J8cn1002604; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 13:08:38 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.38.9) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:08:38 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" , References: Subject: RE: "Snippet" database Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:08:35 -0800 Message-ID: <7C8ABB94156C4284A5341C63818D4AC7@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczMo8HLiyAYx974SPqCVhQauqOMIAAApl0Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F0746B9.004C,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:08:46 -0000 > It would be nice if one could just... That's what enhancement requests are for: `M-x report-emacs-bug'. (Yes, that is for enhancement requests as well as bug reports.) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 14:13:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjFEP-00005p-Oz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:13:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47225) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFEN-0008VM-79 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:13:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFEL-0007Ir-Ks for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:13:35 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:19834) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFEL-0007If-EL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:13:33 -0500 Received: from int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.22]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06JDWZb015101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:13:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (vpn1-6-27.sin2.redhat.com [10.67.6.27]) by int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06JDTZc013051; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:13:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:13:28 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> To: larsi@gnus.org Subject: Re: "Snippet" database From: Masatake YAMATO In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Red Hat Japan, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.22 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 209.132.183.28 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:36 -0000 > In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email > answer to many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It > would be nice if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it > into a database of snippets, and then have a command that would insert > them again. > > Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't > seem to find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ > > It may be nice if the "Snippet" database feature is integrated to abbrev, register, and bookmark machinery. Masatake From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 14:56:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjFu6-0005hA-Ti for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:56:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35823) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFu2-0005fv-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:56:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFty-0005qb-Az for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:56:38 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49220) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFty-0005qX-56 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:56:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjFtw-0003Kp-8E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:56:32 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:56:32 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:56:32 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: "Snippet" database Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:56:18 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:gAjUr1YcU/jvQVsrDSm26HjGXSQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:56:41 -0000 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email > answer to many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It > would be nice if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it > into a database of snippets, and then have a command that would insert > them again. > > Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't > seem to find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... Why not just use abbrev and define some nicer hotkeys? (FWIW, I never got yasnippet working with org etc but never really tried that hard either tbh). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 15:16:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjGDY-0002ws-AM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGDU-0002vW-5v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGDP-0000jW-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:44 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:43465) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGDP-0000jO-9Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:39 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGDN-0004oC-Bl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:16:37 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:16:37 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:16:37 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: "Snippet" database Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:24 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 19 Message-ID: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:lEPA8ce+Z1acvR0Sr9eHCcldhSE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:16:46 -0000 On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:47:58 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email LMI> answer to many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It LMI> would be nice if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it LMI> into a database of snippets, and then have a command that would insert LMI> them again. LMI> Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't LMI> seem to find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... I usually put it in the kill ring, since with session.el I have the kill ring persistent between Emacs sessions. Normally I just keep doing `M-y' (`yank-pop') repeatedly to find the old text, which in an odd way is similar to what you're suggesting. So maybe a `yank-select' command to select from the kill ring would be useful to you, coupled with a way to persist the kill ring if session.el is too heavy for you? Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 15:48:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjGhv-0003lD-6W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:48:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53222) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGhq-0003WR-QK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:48:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGhp-0005aM-PB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:48:06 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:55693) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjGhp-0005Zn-Gb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:48:05 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXE00F009QSIT00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:47:41 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.221.183]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXE00F6R9RGBDB0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:47:41 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:45:38 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: "Snippet" database In-reply-to: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:48:07 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:24 -0500 > > So maybe a `yank-select' command to select from the kill ring would > be useful to you Possible today via the menu bar (Edit->Paste from Kill Menu). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 16:07:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjH12-0007wr-Bg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34888) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH0z-0007wh-VY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH0y-0000OH-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:53 -0500 Received: from z.lifelogs.com ([173.255.230.239]:55797) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH0x-0000No-3w; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:51 -0500 Received: from heechee (c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [76.28.40.19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: tzz) by z.lifelogs.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E725E6203E; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 21:07:49 +0000 (UTC) From: Ted Zlatanov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: "Snippet" database Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos References: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:45:38 +0200") Message-ID: <874nw8wndn.fsf@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 173.255.230.239 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:07:54 -0000 On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:45:38 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 15:16:24 -0500 >> >> So maybe a `yank-select' command to select from the kill ring would >> be useful to you EZ> Possible today via the menu bar (Edit->Paste from Kill Menu). Cool! I had never noticed that. It would still be nice to have it as a command with a popup buffer or something. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 16:10:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjH3X-00009w-U5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:10:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52279) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH3W-00009q-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:10:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH3U-00013H-NE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:10:30 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:60638) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH3U-00012i-G4; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:10:28 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjH3H-0004pR-Iw; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:10:15 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: "Snippet" database References: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> <874nw8wndn.fsf@lifelogs.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEUvLzEjIiQcHB36+fmy sLJYV1kTEhMICAioFD/oAAACRUlEQVQ4jXVTQY7bMAykAzhnSUB6jgjU+wC59wUk3Z2u1HsNhP6B /f0OZSebRVsmligPORRJk0TmSwzptqks7d+EZGVTQgj5vH0REhHfJyDj+/IFqJ31l5IUejcvXpRS LrWv1Nd6iWOe3l6ACunY+L7EFMbpW6OkMKY8sSfnuB9rLSnn29AAlXwStoOIwwbS7nreKDbkR+eo M9MJLKvMfc3n3SMoIcE200QDkFw/AdwuxbESnby3bngAIZU4Knoa5Nrr/cdcQ8ofeOKYCigckJJG +iVyEvkYY4jgqzXXCXH6giKKbN+n4R5R41wTGFKCToL7bbrIPdcbmUvM9XzvKm2LHNWRpsAM2rrS JusBHPuy6wAeB3RGdVmaMwBZEADOWGa3HJrQ1vamixjUY/1tHX4kL8JI+OdyJSJLxLPMKBuj6Mze X4mZTIfFOmYeZizsFAUtukwdlTwRwWJmg/6qkTDh40DPK6rj4GJAbb0aXWqJFPRrgJNlb2mycPGw QBHROjAaq4CBxtbiYBKBCD1gts73KDd8lZEK6Uelp855gz7Bx0LgqzrtZsiqAc57AGpvEXe3tNY5 76zGxwvNuPk3N9QJDzJnTY4bgKvhFZJpgNd02+khqg3EO+Cd1+BwQ3CkNDQq9UA8xOg6Q3orHqhF 2snsU2d08Hl6Ao1bjtzoIWDG1cB53Jx0Bo46q4oKaBKoK7pcdXJzmzaYNF+YaAswXDqpqQ0Loerg UGnzk3V8sGM+UorhU3R4YJKIwt+S1PNfQJP/An8AJoP4jtwkMxMAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Corrupted's _Llenandose de Gusanos (1)_: "Sangre-Humanos" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:10:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <874nw8wndn.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:07:48 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RjH3H-0004pR-Iw X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326489015.6799@PAYhco6iYCEizLUbbMSOUQ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:10:31 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: >>> So maybe a `yank-select' command to select from the kill ring would >>> be useful to you That would be a very very long kill ring. :-) > Cool! I had never noticed that. It would still be nice to have it as a > command with a popup buffer or something. I think I'd like to do fancy completion on it. I vaguely remember what each canned response is supposed to say, so being able to hit `H-r I absolutely refuse TAB' to get the snippet would be very nice. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 16:49:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjHfU-0007US-0e for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:49:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33395) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHfR-0007UD-C9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:49:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHfQ-00075r-8I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:49:41 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:42854) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHfQ-00075e-0j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:49:40 -0500 Received: from int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.25]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06LncAP011523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:49:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (vpn1-6-27.sin2.redhat.com [10.67.6.27]) by int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q06LnZ1j012074; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:49:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:49:34 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20120107.064934.590252325830536875.yamato@redhat.com> To: larsi@gnus.org Subject: Re: "Snippet" database From: Masatake YAMATO In-Reply-To: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> References: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> Organization: Red Hat Japan, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.25 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 209.132.183.28 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:49:42 -0000 I wrote: >> In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email >> answer to many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It >> would be nice if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it >> into a database of snippets, and then have a command that would insert >> them again. >> >> Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't >> seem to find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... >> >> -- >> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) >> bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ >> >> > > It may be nice if the "Snippet" database feature is integrated > to abbrev, register, and bookmark machinery. > > Masatake > Here is the prototype of bookmark based snippet manager. Usage: 1. Set the region which you want to record as snippet 2. Do M-x snippet:region->bookmark 3. Do \C-x r l 4. Do [return] on the line where the snippet 5. Switch the buffer 6. \C-y (require 'bookmark) (defun snippet:region->bookmark () (interactive) (lexical-let ((snippet (buffer-substring (region-beginning) (region-end)))) (let ((bookmark-make-record-function (lambda () `((page . ,snippet) (handler . snippet:bookmark->kill-ring))))) (bookmark-set (car (split-string snippet "[\n]")))))) (defun snippet:bookmark->kill-ring (record) (kill-new (cdr (assoc 'page record)))) Masatake From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 17:04:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjHuF-0001ul-DA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:04:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58800) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHuD-0001ue-7D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:04:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHuC-0001TX-4m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:04:57 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:57129) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHuB-0001TS-TU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:04:56 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjHu4-0005VI-PM; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:04:49 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Masatake YAMATO Subject: Re: "Snippet" database References: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> <20120107.064934.590252325830536875.yamato@redhat.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAD1BMVEUQEBEoJygLCwsHBweN jI3rR+3uAAACVUlEQVQ4jU1UgZHkIAwzJAXYeQpwzBeQgwaWH/qv6SVnf+bZm7sbBJIsm5VlUvbe tvdaW9rm/x/BstW4+W5tW9tMRPExs9L2Ar5fyFTeVUROALpPoKstMxyxhPzepNy4rXur5l3sx3Av rW3QAm+rWAJFo/ZHfmO/lI3d74JGBMAAP0/CT1uvsnRv+xNgJ/fnxqaldjFHEVdJs8A+LJiQWXXb q54kglV1FkZg6RQgdB89RGq8ZDDfRzEEszScN7jXoLFqnSHXMA2hsYUSUnwpgFHjuYbXTPpNq3yk jhgdh3UOtywDq3rMEX1OiF+9hxf7plsjYGbOu6nHjTCq/FtRGc4lgeMq/y12S2VijcDx+EflMBsz 1zFwC6aVBqpAsr/AMyGIgN4O4vTgD355DRc2Smmqv0A8UMf5hko03Xp9eQZKcnQNHZOmJDq4Lbfl P4zT2JX61XV6PvrAKHFMlqShMWbhQLXD1fRcbFRE2jQECIojstm48DX7zPnDyb5OpWHQoSlUTlXO ZqsVQOMkQsPtmAUkLAxhZ4mCIvqtx6D4zoheGdqVctXGOVyFIwiub7iALwZHIik5PYwwXIdkseyK XalxIpI4Zp+Yp/3Hg/MOIj6KBBASrH5AgkdXla+kUYVRoaAznyA7La1RRQe4BqvAU+TMkmuxOTrj V8SZx+GWnqBxdccoWT5kVB7BSDiOdYwe/BZQclkCfElI4MagL2bE/lxRWHmh3dtBj78P1QufNeax sVF5NJ4f1AKd9y0nkHXjS6MK52Dhwxss72ED/kgUUb7YDU/tL75sg0C8mosCAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Corrupted's _Llenandose de Gusanos (2)_: "VIII - El Mundo" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:04:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20120107.064934.590252325830536875.yamato@redhat.com> (Masatake YAMATO's message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:49:34 +0900 (JST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RjHu4-0005VI-PM X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1326492289.19716@od8782x2txER/4x1JUwveA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:04:58 -0000 Masatake YAMATO writes: > Here is the prototype of bookmark based snippet manager. Thanks... using fancy completion to find the snippet instead of listing the snippets in a buffer would be more convenient, though, I think. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 17:14:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjI3d-0003uS-7k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:14:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36423) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI3a-0003uF-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:14:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI3Z-00030P-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:14:38 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:18900 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI3Y-00030F-So for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:14:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 13726 invoked by uid 3782); 6 Jan 2012 22:14:34 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9557F11.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.127.17]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:14:33 +0100 Received: (qmail 761 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jan 2012 22:08:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 22:08:06 +0000 To: Kentaro NAKAZAWA Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> References: <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:14:39 -0000 Hello, Kentaro. On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:56:15AM +0900, Kentaro NAKAZAWA wrote: > Hello. (sorry for my poor english ;) > Other pattern attached. > The file is very heavy at edit and undo. > Geoff Gole writes: > > If another data point will help, I've also noticed *very* slow c-mode > > fontification in a script generated header, > > /usr/include/GL/gl_mangle.h. In case you don't have this header, a > > copy is attached. > > The file is basically several thousand #defines. > // -*- mode: c++ -*- > namespace NameSpace1 { > namespace NameSpace2 { > enum { > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0000 = 0x0000, // Comment0000 > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0001 = 0x0001, // Comment0001 > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0002 = 0x0002, // Comment0002 > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0003 = 0x0003, // Comment0003 > > [....] > > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0220 = 0x00dc, // Comment0220 > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0221 = 0x00dd, // Comment0221 > kFooBarBazType_Attribute0222 = 0x00de, // Comment0222 > }; > } // namespace Namespace2 > } // namespace Namespace1 Would you try this patch and let me know how it goes, please. *** orig/cc-fonts.el 2012-01-06 12:27:14.000000000 +0000 --- cc-fonts.el 2012-01-06 21:48:54.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 1394,1399 **** --- 1394,1414 ---- (c-fontify-recorded-types-and-refs) nil) + ((and (not c-enums-contain-decls) + ;; An optimisation quickly to eliminate scans of long enum + ;; declarations in the next cond arm. + (let ((paren-state (c-parse-state))) + (and + (numberp (car paren-state)) + (save-excursion + (goto-char (car paren-state)) + (c-backward-token-2) + (or (looking-at c-brace-list-key)) + (progn + (c-backward-token-2) + (looking-at c-brace-list-key)))))) + t) + (t ;; Are we at a declarator? Try to go back to the declaration ;; to check this. If we get there, check whether a "typedef" *** orig/cc-langs.el 2012-01-06 12:27:14.000000000 +0000 --- cc-langs.el 2012-01-06 12:54:00.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 2930,2935 **** --- 2930,2941 ---- ; generics is not yet coded in CC Mode. (c-lang-defvar c-recognize-<>-arglists (c-lang-const c-recognize-<>-arglists)) + (c-lang-defconst c-enums-contain-decls + "Non-nil means that an enum structure can contain declarations." + t nil + java t) + (c-lang-defvar c-enums-contain-decls (c-lang-const c-enums-contain-decls)) + (c-lang-defconst c-recognize-paren-inits "Non-nil means that parenthesis style initializers exist, i.e. constructs like > -- > Kentaro Nakazawa -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 17:17:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjI6g-0005At-P6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:17:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36860) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI6b-00059a-Hg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:17:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI6X-0003Ko-Fl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:17:45 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:63769) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjI6W-0003Kc-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:17:41 -0500 Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so785474lag.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:17:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NiyZcOyVbBf5t6j9JeFNsp+tnz2X0ccWkNFCSvW2qKg=; b=M3XeXrKfvaUJk/5TBLwsQoOKPph5tAGkfY0evbs0j24IN+YwMK0MgmKa6coC96WJAe n5NDyVsi6Mi2HTeM5v4zAn/9Kwlhw0pYewNylKheaxEcE8R0O/p2lukQOY6ZVF5Q/ENw zGjpMm77iNbAwItiK/SJ+pADw8WyKMdspdv6w= Received: by 10.112.102.164 with SMTP id fp4mr1414053lbb.65.1325888259221; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 14:17:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.124.44 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:17:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> <20120107.064934.590252325830536875.yamato@redhat.com> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:17:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "Snippet" database To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: Masatake YAMATO , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:17:49 -0000 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 23:04, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrot= e: > Masatake YAMATO writes: > >> Here is the prototype of bookmark based snippet manager. > > Thanks... =C2=A0using fancy completion to find the snippet instead of lis= ting > the snippets in a buffer would be more convenient, though, I think. How about the snippet systems, like yasnippets? Can they perhaps be used? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 17:33:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjILi-0007QU-Bw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:33:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48268) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjILf-0007Mp-GJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:33:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjILe-0005Va-Eu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:33:19 -0500 Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]:37351) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjILe-0005VW-D2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:33:18 -0500 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12CB20CC6 for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:33:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=/XKnRflQ/lnLgxVN+fvI6gVSPFA=; b=ZJofyTxfMnOo+YO0mijfcqDe0NII G9Sg5y9vTALIa6TKOLUHRSO5w1vInm540OYuq+/wowXuCt7iXoJr7crqli0jPUOz X0uXC6iOrZma6qM57AmQhqwQw0Ar1YqRs5tLzdCyH2211GL+FCD7efVccyNeiXU8 nYBxzHVhSzOkLs4= X-Sasl-enc: gBUV+VQrLp7Jz3dI7HzEOkwZM5AysRErJJC/iB0o0Z4q 1325889197 Received: from thinkpad.tsdh.de (91-67-11-43-dynip.superkabel.de [91.67.11.43]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A9858E0212; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:33:16 -0500 (EST) From: Tassilo Horn To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: "Snippet" database References: <20120107.041328.2292730043452883798.yamato@redhat.com> <20120107.064934.590252325830536875.yamato@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:33:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:17:18 +0100") Message-ID: <87aa60qx5h.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.29 Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Masatake YAMATO , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:33:20 -0000 Lennart Borgman writes: > How about the snippet systems, like yasnippets? Can they perhaps be > used? I use that for about 3 years or so. Since then, I haven't written "Bye, Tassilo" and other such phrases anymore. :-) Bye, Tassilo From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 19:13:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjJuA-000291-T3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55634) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJu8-00028h-FK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJu0-0005vR-MA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59269) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJty-0005n6-OH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:12:51 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJtx-0001XS-VV; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:12:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:12:49 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:07:48 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:13:01 -0000 I thought that e would be a useful command back when I supposed info files would be written by hand. But we don't do that, so e is not useful and maybe only causes trouble. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 19:13:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjJv0-0002ij-J8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56531) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJuy-0002ic-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJut-0006O9-88 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:52 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59464) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJus-0006Lx-U1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:47 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJuq-0001rn-P3; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:13:44 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Glenn Morris In-reply-to: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (message from Glenn Morris on Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:15 -0500) Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: yamaoka@jpl.org, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:13:53 -0000 Our last legal advice is that the years are for when _Emacs_ changed, and Emacs has already changed this year. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 20:18:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjKva-0006ln-7H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:18:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46113) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjKvU-0006ic-Bo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:18:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjKvN-0000cW-JG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:18:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60837) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjKvN-0000cK-GL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:18:21 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-176-96.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.176.96]:46794 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjKvM-0002rh-KC; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:18:21 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Hash functions for custom-safe-themes References: <87mxa2ct23.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:18:11 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:44:00 -0500") Message-ID: <87ehvcqpik.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: Leo , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:18:32 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> These new additions are small but quite handy. Do you think we can do it >> for 24.1? > > No, Agreed---now is not the time to add new features. Switching custom-safe-themes to SHA-2, however, is now or never, so I'm going to go ahead and flip that switch. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 20:24:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjL11-0007jf-Up for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:24:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56419) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjL0z-0007jZ-OB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:24:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjL0y-0001b9-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:24:09 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:53840) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjL0x-0001al-Vi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:24:08 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EE7970633; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:24:00 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 07FA41A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:24:00 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:23:59 +0900 Message-ID: <8762go485s.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:24:10 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > 2012/1/5 Ted Zlatanov : >=20 > > You're right. =C2=A0Do you agree with the general idea of checking for > > critical updates on startup, though? >=20 > FWIW, I don't. That is a step (tiny, I know) in the "software as a > service" direction. No, it's not. Providing software *as* a service is a different issue from providing software *with* a service. There is an issue of "ET phoning home" here, which is not an easy one for free software (at least as I understand Richard's positions on these things). But please don't call it "software as a service," which is a business model based on decreasing the range of choices and information available to the user; Ted is suggesting increasing both, while decreasing certain costs to some users at relatively low (but not insignificant!) cost to the Emacs project. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 20:36:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjLCf-0000tw-Tc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:36:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52315) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLCd-0000qU-76 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:36:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLCb-0002z7-RB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:36:11 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:54159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLCb-0002yx-D2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:36:09 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7919707AB; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:36:02 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 883581A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:36:02 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:36:02 +0900 Message-ID: <874nw847lp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: chad , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:36:12 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > Last I checked, Emacs wasn't yet an operating system. Comparing kinds of software here is bogus. The question is "what do users want?" Obviously, there is a vocal faction (and I believe it's large) of Emacs users who don't like processes running on their hosts that they didn't explicitly start, and especially not networking processes. But there are also an awful lot of people who would appreciate this service, I'm sure. I think is it quite reasonable to provide the service, default the automatic check OFF in the sources that the Emacs project publishes, and let redistributors make their own choices. However, there are alternative ways to provide notification services, such as providing an RSS feed for the update page, and making that easy to access manually (eg, from the Help or File menus). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 20:45:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjLLv-0002Di-OL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:45:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36827) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLLt-0002Dc-BN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:45:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLLs-00048P-5b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:45:45 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:54416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLLr-000484-RG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:45:44 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51FB9707AB; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:45:36 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BE00C1A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:45:36 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Katsumi Yamaoka Subject: Updating copyright years (was Re: [gnus git] branch master updated: n0-17-447-g55c26cf =1= Add 2012 to FSF copyright years for Emacs files.) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:45:36 +0900 Message-ID: <8739bs475r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:45:46 -0000 Katsumi Yamaoka writes: Hi, Katsumi! > I used to feel Emacs' way strange. Maybe updating the copyright > years of Walt Disney's works every year is nonsense. That can't be done because Walt is dead, and therefore cannot add to his works.[1] > But Emacs' way is alike to it. No, it's not. Emacs's source copyrights are updated every year because Emacs itself is different every year; but old copies of Emacs in any form do not have their copyrights updated. > What is TRT? Emacs's way. Copyright is weird, agreed, but given the way copyright works, Emacs does the right thing. Footnotes: [1] Of course, Congress regularly does something even more offensive (ie, extend the term of existing copyrights). But that's not the same as updating the copyright of an existing work. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 20:47:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjLNQ-0002st-Uu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:47:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37109) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLNO-0002si-NF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:47:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLNM-0004Gn-Ej for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:47:18 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:58307) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLNM-0004GZ-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:47:16 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so1859434pbd.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:47:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=o5/nbuwOgDN+CKFKTWcyegsGI8kAehuroEzsAUKBN7w=; b=rhjB0EcJieWODGUt6m6mQwNNUiT27DnC7kqiWl5bfdXwTBrGPEMtkY4JHrfn25U44J XRpG8wEHI2IijHU6b5BBoeXEPTitbUUU3q25+7G2dJ+Bop/8BIsVupAaVddbistonYrD 7Jg1cgxi5lBwFp6/TQ2WICmy1ZJixHfRWhFVk= Received: by 10.68.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr19577865pbv.57.1325900835266; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 17:47:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:46:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874nw847lp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874nw847lp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 02:46:34 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: chad , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:47:19 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 02:36, Stephen J. Turnbull wrot= e: > Comparing kinds of software here is bogus. It wasn't me who proposed comparing software. > The question is "what do users want?" I think that's a strange metric. Users might want all kind of things that we wouldn't want to offer, because of lack of resources, project policies, etc. I think the question is "What can we offer (and want to offer) while maximizing usefulness to the users?" > I think is it quite reasonable to provide the service, default the > automatic check OFF in the sources that the Emacs project publishes, > and let redistributors make their own choices. In this scenario, if the redistributor enables checking for GnuTLS updates, who will distribute the DLL? The GNU project, or the redistributor? If the latter, I'm OK with this proposal (the OFF part is important, of course). > However, there are alternative ways to provide notification services, > such as providing an RSS feed for the update page, and making that > easy to access manually (eg, from the Help or File menus). Right. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 21:03:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjLcy-0005nQ-Iy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:03:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37780) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLcw-0005mp-7L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:03:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLcv-00064o-F8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:03:22 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:54890) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjLcv-00064g-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:03:21 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8949707AB for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:03:18 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 33C191A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:03:18 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:03:18 +0900 Message-ID: <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:03:23 -0000 Richard Riley writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". > > Silly word play. Not at all. It's an admirably precise statement of Juanma's opinion, and it corresponds to what I believe to be the project's policy on such things. > It's a required component for Emacs in the context of this > discussion. Of course it's not. Nothing related to Windows can be required of Emacs, only permitted given the needed volunteers. Even if a similar practice were a good idea for GNU/Linux systems, it would still be the project's choice whether to consider such a DLL a "component of Emacs" or not. The former means the project accepts responsibility for it (in some "moral" sense even though the license disclaims all legal responsibility), the latter means it's delivered "as is" and defects are the user's problem entirely. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 21:32:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjM4j-0001CR-AX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:32:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34146) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM4g-00018e-Lv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:32:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM4f-0000w8-Ia for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:32:02 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:56138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM4f-0000vw-1J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:32:01 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944459707AB; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:31:58 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8CD151A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:31:58 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:31:58 +0900 Message-ID: <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:32:03 -0000 =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > But now that you ask, yes, I'll appreciate that all projects would > include a system for notifying me that its software is putting my > machine at risk. =C3=93scar, I'll tell you right now: all of the software on all of your machines is putting your systems at risk. If those systems are connected to the Internet (including by "sneakernet"), that risk is nonnegligible. You know that. What one[1] really wants is something like "I'll appreciate that all projects will inform me that features of their software that I use has a known and relatively high security risk." But identifying features that you use is impossible; at best the software can determine what features you have used in the past. The software also cannot determine what you mean by "relatively high"; it can only use some "objective" criterion of exploitability, which might or might not matter to you. The bar has to be higher than zero (or you'd just add my first paragraph to the startup message, no need to check), so some users (and I gather you are a member of that group) will not get as many warnings as they like. But others will get too many, and shut off a system that they would find beneficial if the bar were set higher. > You are sidetracking from my question by going back to the GnuTLS > dll. I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning for rejecting an > automatic notification system built into Emacs. Did he reject such a system, or simply insist that it not be turned on by default? I don't see how he can reject the system itself, if somebody else volunteers to create and maintain it. Rejection is different from what he actually said, which is that he thinks those volunteers would be doing a better service for Emacs by developing Emacs instead of trying to keep up with the security details (which are normally not public, as you know) of an independent project. > Something you can use to warn users that a problem was found that > would pose a risk to their data (a security breach, data > corruption, whatever). Something includes "email", "website", "RSS feed", etc; you just want to feed that information to all users, including many who don't want it, and some who believe in turning off all services that they don't need, and won't approve of having Emacs turn it on for them by default. Footnotes:=20 [1] Cf. larsi's infinitely extensible example of why he doesn't like checks at startup. Maybe you would be happy to see that, but I doubt very many people would. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 21:34:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjM70-0001ew-Je for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:34:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41980) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM6y-0001dP-OP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:34:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM6x-0001Ng-S5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:34:24 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:56198) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjM6w-0001NS-El; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:34:22 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FCB9707AB; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:34:21 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 80BB51A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:34:21 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <2DF608DC-FFC4-40E1-B2DB-F469C28CFD7C@gmail.com> <8362gppamt.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:34:21 +0900 Message-ID: <87y5tk2qc2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , chad , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:34:25 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 08:12, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Then I suggest that the check for updates be turned on by default for > > US locales. > > +1 :-) Please, no. That will make the Tea Partyers attack Emacs. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 22:37:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjN6V-0002y2-SC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:37:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37358) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjN6T-0002xn-CE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:37:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjN6S-0008Bg-1I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:37:57 -0500 Received: from impaqm4.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.20]:32115 helo=telefonica.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjN6R-0008Ar-Nq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:37:56 -0500 Received: from IMPmailhost3.adm.correo ([10.20.102.124]) by IMPaqm4.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id JTde1i00T2h2L9m3QTdsNW; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:37:52 +0100 Received: from qcore ([79.147.11.225]) by IMPmailhost3.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id JTdo1i00Q4rKmjT1jTdqCt; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:37:52 +0100 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-original-sender: 981711563@telefonica.net From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:37:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:31:58 +0900") Message-ID: <87aa60p4hi.fsf@wanadoo.es> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.4.138.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:37:58 -0000 "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > =C3=93scar, I'll tell you right now: all of the software on all of your > machines is putting your systems at risk. Yes, and we are all gonna die, but somehow find more interesting a diagnostic of brain cancer than the statistics about life expectancy. Please excuse me for not commenting on the rest of your post, but I've already devoted too much energy to this discussion and it ceased to be productive since almost the beginning. [snip] From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 23:16:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjNhm-0007U3-3P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:16:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37229) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjNhj-0007Qo-QU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:16:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjNhi-0003Zt-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:16:27 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:44579) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjNhi-0003Zg-AH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:16:26 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so4264152iac.0 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:16:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=6WI70cW2GDVF28+c7k32wAr+qy4waDB0iGR2wf5mV1A=; b=FiqCzgOokn8I+BLNzcopwuyuOcJW9z7fwgkPOHpfIDA1kFlD6sT95WFh/d+z3TgiP0 BRWMJ38PKD0F1RWl0PjhLOVd0PR8nn54OhkK7Iggve/9iDS2P+XydaDfHy4R6Je+JmET sMexGfJTnxhjPSGq5qkjDg+hAwwLG6O5Hzk2U= Received: by 10.50.85.199 with SMTP id j7mr472639igz.25.1325909784748; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.216.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf6sm961783igb.1.2012.01.06.20.16.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 06 Jan 2012 20:16:24 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 00F3E1827; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:16:12 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Katsumi Yamaoka Subject: Re: Updating copyright years (was Re: [gnus git] branch master updated: n0-17-447-g55c26cf =1= Add 2012 to FSF copyright years for Emacs files.) References: Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 12:16:12 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Katsumi Yamaoka's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 08:05:39 +0900") Message-ID: <87ty48jgfn.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:16:28 -0000 Katsumi Yamaoka writes: > I used to feel Emacs' way strange. Maybe updating the copyright > years of Walt Disney's works every year is nonsense. But Emacs' > way is alike to it. What is TRT? Emacs is a single "work", so a single copyright date is appropriate. It is much less error prone to do it all in one sweep, as there is no risk of a developer making a change to a file (which may be in 11 months time) and forgetting to update the copyright notice. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 06 23:47:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjOBq-00048h-8t for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:47:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60799) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOBn-00048b-Rv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:47:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOBm-0006vB-P7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:47:31 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38968) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOBm-0006v7-GE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 23:47:30 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOBl-00049V-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:47:29 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:47:29 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:47:29 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:47:32 -0000 Are we getting much closer to the Emacs 24.1 release date? I think that Emacs is looking pretty solid, and I'm kinda wondering what we're waiting for. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 00:07:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjOV8-0006HX-Fw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:07:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54531) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOV5-0006Cz-It for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:07:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOV4-0000WC-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:07:27 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:32845) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjOV4-0000W8-IW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:07:26 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D16797072A; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:07:24 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 861FE1A2FD1; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:07:24 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874nw847lp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:07:24 +0900 Message-ID: <87sjjs2j8z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: chad , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:07:28 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > In this scenario, if the redistributor enables checking for GnuTLS > updates, who will distribute the DLL? The GNU project, or the > redistributor? If the latter, I'm OK with this proposal (the OFF part > is important, of course). The latter, of course. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 00:40:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjP1U-0001XR-UL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:40:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41691) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjP1R-0001XJ-Qb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:40:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjP1Q-0004aw-DI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:40:53 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59010) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjP1Q-0004as-2q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:40:52 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjP1O-0003RL-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:50 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:50 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:50 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:38 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 54 Message-ID: <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:8xlLiU+ZkKU0bbJ5CZ4xi11mNew= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:40:54 -0000 "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Richard Riley writes: > > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > > The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". > > > > Silly word play. > > Not at all. It's an admirably precise statement of Juanma's opinion, > and it corresponds to what I believe to be the project's policy on > such things. It is word play when everyone knows its not an emacs developed component. The whole point is whether to ship this external components. Had you not snipped, my point would clearer. Ted said: ,---- | > I can't think of a better way to | > notify them that an Emacs component is out of date and possibly | > compromising their security. `---- and the reply was ,---- | The GnuTLS binary is *not* an "Emacs component". `---- It was quite clear in the context what was meant by "emacs component" : a component which contributes to a working and complete emacs installation. > > > It's a required component for Emacs in the context of this > > discussion. > > Of course it's not. Nothing related to Windows can be required of > Emacs, only permitted given the needed volunteers. > More word play. Sorry. Clearly no one thinks its an emacs component per se : but IS a component required by emacs on windows for certain subsets of emacs users. Its why this thread is taking place. Its not unique to emacs to have to or want to ship a support 3rd party element in order to facilitate installation. The location etc has been covered elsewhere. I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit of a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end user and, more importantly, the new adopter. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 01:25:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjPiP-0006VJ-TL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:25:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33814) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjPiN-0006Ur-8m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:25:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjPiJ-0001jt-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:25:15 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44992) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjPiJ-0001jp-O1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:25:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjPiI-00084h-Qh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:25:10 +0100 Received: from c-98-215-105-167.hsd1.il.comcast.net ([98.215.105.167]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:25:10 +0100 Received: from jwiegley by c-98-215-105-167.hsd1.il.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:25:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: John Wiegley Subject: Re: "Snippet" database Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:06:52 -0600 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-98-215-105-167.hsd1.il.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/23.3 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WErVitUqKQV/U9cax3E25xVklA8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:25:16 -0000 >>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > In my various guises I find myself sending out the same rote email answer to > many people. "Thanks for the patch; applied" and stuff. It would be nice > if one could just mark the region, ask Emacs to pull it into a database of > snippets, and then have a command that would insert them again. > Surely something like this already exists in Emacs, but I just can't seem to > find it. Probably looking for the wrong thing... I copy the region, then run yas/new-snippet (from yasnippet, bound to C-c y n). I have many e-mail templates now. John From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 02:10:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjQQb-0002YI-5z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:10:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37654) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjQQV-0002W8-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:10:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjQQQ-0000B6-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:10:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36537) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjQQQ-0000B2-4v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:10:46 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-176-96.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.176.96]:47607 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjQQP-0001o9-2i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:10:46 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? References: Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:10:38 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:47:18 +0100") Message-ID: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:10:55 -0000 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > Are we getting much closer to the Emacs 24.1 release date? I think that > Emacs is looking pretty solid, and I'm kinda wondering what we're > waiting for. :-) We are getting closer indeed, but the documentation updates are not done. We're due for another pretest, but there are a couple more off-list issues I'd like to wrap up first. As for the code, there are still a number of issues that need more attention, most prominently the mysterious memory leak(s) that may or may not involve Gnus and/or GnuTLS and/or Mac OS X. By the by, could someone please take a look at this Viper bug? http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=9146 From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 02:21:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjQaT-000464-NA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:21:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53884) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJqc-00015C-Jt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:09:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJqa-00053h-E4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:09:22 -0500 Received: from userg508.nifty.com ([202.248.238.88]:62056) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjJqZ-00053E-NK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:09:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain (eatkyo565213.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [222.159.219.213])by userg508.nifty.com with ESMTP id q07091pe019479; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:09:01 +0900 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nifty.com; s=mar2011msa; t=1325894941; bh=BcKdLKYmqPKsmsoJhziu7HXXmx3mprDpcEvAo7DgOms=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=D1MtasYvxGIhkdeaD7398BLv1i5gQ/jjwq0/C8gRpxUH4Js+CPIw2XkSt5IwB9en6 guLQlzvvlooamdQZKa9mT0eotGBunY7tSdIFrv/AgFz2ZxiZ1NDAC1UZ3c7P5YIiRj Jn1YiC2xUVMUF45BGdXSTiO3x1Ki09VEdk0HBftY= X-Nifty-SrcIP: [222.159.219.213] From: Kentaro NAKAZAWA To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers References: <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:09:01 +0900 Message-ID: <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 202.248.238.88 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:21:08 -0500 Cc: Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 00:09:23 -0000 Hello, Alan. Alan Mackenzie writes: > Would you try this patch and let me know how it goes, please. > > > *** orig/cc-fonts.el 2012-01-06 12:27:14.000000000 +0000 > --- cc-fonts.el 2012-01-06 21:48:54.000000000 +0000 > *************** > *** 1394,1399 **** > --- 1394,1414 ---- > (c-fontify-recorded-types-and-refs) > nil) > > + ((and (not c-enums-contain-decls) > + ;; An optimisation quickly to eliminate scans of long enum > + ;; declarations in the next cond arm. > + (let ((paren-state (c-parse-state))) > + (and > + (numberp (car paren-state)) > + (save-excursion > + (goto-char (car paren-state)) > + (c-backward-token-2) > + (or (looking-at c-brace-list-key)) > + (progn > + (c-backward-token-2) > + (looking-at c-brace-list-key)))))) > + t) > + > (t > ;; Are we at a declarator? Try to go back to the declaration > ;; to check this. If we get there, check whether a "typedef" > *** orig/cc-langs.el 2012-01-06 12:27:14.000000000 +0000 > --- cc-langs.el 2012-01-06 12:54:00.000000000 +0000 > *************** > *** 2930,2935 **** > --- 2930,2941 ---- > ; generics is not yet coded in CC Mode. > (c-lang-defvar c-recognize-<>-arglists (c-lang-const c-recognize-<>-arglists)) > > + (c-lang-defconst c-enums-contain-decls > + "Non-nil means that an enum structure can contain declarations." > + t nil > + java t) > + (c-lang-defvar c-enums-contain-decls (c-lang-const c-enums-contain-decls)) > + > (c-lang-defconst c-recognize-paren-inits > "Non-nil means that parenthesis style initializers exist, > i.e. constructs like > Thank you for the patch. I applied a patch, it came to be able to edit the attribute.h comfortably. The original file with the problem is comfortable too. However, some key words were not colored. -- Kentaro Nakazawa From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 04:31:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjScL-0004Jm-Vs for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:31:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54504) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjScJ-0004Ib-Ak for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:31:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjScH-0001fx-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:31:11 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:33401) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjScH-0001fs-NK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 04:31:09 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so2022388pbd.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:31:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E+5W0sfstbeRyOx6LS7yW0jZFUsR86l4qt06tWkXTe4=; b=R6QGURei5TWclLd4md0co4UExEdOPRa/GyuL6uHfvlAK09KIhsXIx5dfkiPVnEtYm0 Sjgf9e3E7zZn3/xyldPVNjr5K7YTcMAhDUH2alNnJxtuRNq+HrFHu/6kfXMVVwj0UhL8 0fkiI61XzwTUymGAOPyJDslJiubX3E7sWNq24= Received: by 10.68.73.234 with SMTP id o10mr22666766pbv.90.1325928668212; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 01:31:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 01:30:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:30:27 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:31:12 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 03:31, Stephen J. Turnbull wrot= e: > Did he reject such a system, or simply insist that it not be turned on > by default? =C2=A0I don't see how he can reject the system itself, if > somebody else volunteers to create and maintain it. =C2=A0Rejection is > different from what he actually said, which is that he thinks those > volunteers would be doing a better service for Emacs by developing > Emacs instead of trying to keep up with the security details (which > are normally not public, as you know) of an independent project. Right. I don't reject adding such a system, with a note in NEWS saying: "if you want automatic warning of updates, customize the variable `emacs-check-for-updates'"- However, I do fear that, once the system is in place, for 24.2 or 25.1 we will heard people say that the default should be t. (I'm leaving aside the issue of distributing binaries.) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 05:24:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjTSI-0000d0-LG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:24:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42390) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjTSG-0000bB-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:24:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjTSE-0008Hq-Tx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:24:52 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjTSE-0008Hl-RC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:24:50 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-176-96.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.176.96]:48301 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjTSD-0003O0-7p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:24:50 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa60yduw.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:24:39 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87aa60yduw.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 11:50:31 -0500") Message-ID: <87d3av95eg.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:24:53 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:47:56 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > JB> Anyway, I think the dead equine has been beaten to a pulp and turned > JB> into fertilizer. We don't really advance anything rehashing the same > JB> arguments again and again, IMHO. YMMV. > > I appreciate your opinions and hope we can find some middle ground that > will satisfy everyone's expectations. Here are my thoughts: - First of all, any change involving distributing GnuTLS with Emacs should be post-24.1. - Phoning home on startup by default is out of the question. There are lots of users with the "open Emacs many times" usage pattern, even though that usage pattern is discouraged. Accessing the network for each startup would be unreasonable, quite apart from the privacy concerns (GNU knows each time you launch Emacs!) - I am open to improvements to package.el to implement _periodic_ update checking, and improvements to check for updates in M-x list-packages. It is probably not too difficult to add some infrastructure to highlight "strongly recommended updates" in the Package Menu. - I agree with Lars' point that > I don't really see that there's much of a difference between bugs in > libgnutls and in the Emacs binary proper. If a major security hole was > discovered in Emacs, then presumably a new Emacs release would be made. > If a major libgnutls hole was discovered, then presumably someone would > zip up a new Windows release. If a really serious security flaw is found in GnuPG, and we are distributing GnuPG with Emacs, we should make an Emacs security release, exactly as though it was a security flaw in Emacs itself. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 06:03:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjU3G-00051T-0O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:03:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56548) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjU3D-00050G-CJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:03:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjU3C-00047m-BU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:03:03 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:65212) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjU3A-000476-K8; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:03:00 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so4712166iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:02:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=s4aST4P/64o9ZJG9fxR/yE3hFSiY9PJ9LO/YS067sRA=; b=Dbj+i4B6uu2PzpBTJS/O7Vd9+r5MoVJWbjvMdovzvWK/AVQ2WF5DuWDOSdE7l2T9X/ RbFFA7zygucx8urAjwenEFwHqR5NSVUqA3GrD/lle3Rx6KS/o9S8Z3fvNN8ZAzf7fTEx duVNX9pbawSn84VdmZXUTl1sRWksgo/kxGAzs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr10690558igc.29.1325934179605; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 03:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 03:02:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:02:59 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? From: Carsten Mattner To: Chong Yidong Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:03:04 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Chong Yidong wrote: > As for the code, there are still a number of issues that need more > attention, most prominently the mysterious memory leak(s) that may or > may not involve Gnus and/or GnuTLS and/or Mac OS X. For the record, I use a --without-gnutls Emacs while also not using Gnus, and am part of the users seeing the "leaks". Ready to test any patch or memory statistics collector background scripts for analysis. Still running debug builds of Emacs just in case there's another crash. No other crash seen so far, but I've enabled Ido just recently, and have to use it more extensively before I can be reasonably sure it might be solved. Reading Tom Tromey's recent blog post, I'd say any improvements to the allocator and/or collector will be a huge NEWS entry for 24. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:09:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjW1i-0002UA-Q9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:09:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34382) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW1h-0002U3-DP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:09:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW1f-0002mt-TH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:09:37 -0500 Received: from prometheus.naquadah.org ([212.85.154.174]:51262 helo=mx1.naquadah.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW1f-0002mm-Of for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:09:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.naquadah.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF665C114; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:09:33 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at prometheus.naquadah.org Received: from mx1.naquadah.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prometheus.naquadah.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqURe7uSCJrT; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:09:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from DimIMac.local (89-158-241-83.rev.dartybox.com [89.158.241.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.naquadah.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E8D15C0E4; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:09:30 +0100 (CET) Received: by DimIMac.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0635D33596EE; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:09:28 +0100 (CET) From: Dimitri Fontaine To: Christian Lynbech Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> User-Mail-Address: dim@tapoueh.org Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:09:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Christian Lynbech's message of "Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:08:59 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 212.85.154.174 Cc: Jan =?utf-8?Q?Dj=C3=A4rv?= , Leo , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:09:38 -0000 Christian Lynbech writes: > I use Emacs on OSX everyday too, and I use gnus as my one and only way > to read mail, and it works quite well for me (except I am experiencing > some issues with w3m after upgrading my laptop to Lion). This is emacs24 > using the trunk version and upstream gnus. With Emacs24 and gnus and flyspell, on macosx, Emacs gets slower and slower to the point that if I want to edit medium to large size C files (more than 6k lines, say) I need to restart Emacs. I've been told flyspell usage is what makes emacs slower and slower on this system but didn't have anytime to spend on that yet. It would be awesome to see the problem fixed though=C2=A0:) That's the only problem I have here and basically =E2=80=9CI live in Emacs= =E2=80=9D. Regards, --=20 dim From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:15:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjW74-0003MY-Gw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:15:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36884) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW71-0003Kv-P2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:15:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW70-0003Z8-TH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:15:07 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:51883) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjW6x-0003V6-PS; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:15:03 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so2102592pbd.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:15:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BTDsmRIe3cF6cDwBHWi1JgSjjYyZMSi8PZBnYP+xWzA=; b=YpAsdF6hn8EcryirQd7QMvniRBkl4a60F03ZfFaGl4Ld+MUEnH34M4W2MoUU1RbhwL BO+wDaYcg0mTUsnWeI+pbJe4XA9Y9Yc7vECXfvn3aDtzTtCy3dpZQHgrx0+v06lJAQOL vXhnOO8kI/3KfSLEVHyNtML4JdqYjWqEwjD9I= Received: by 10.68.191.34 with SMTP id gv2mr23750195pbc.101.1325942102338; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 05:15:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 05:14:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87d3av95eg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa60yduw.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87d3av95eg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:14:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: Chong Yidong Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:15:08 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:24, Chong Yidong wrote: > - First of all, any change involving distributing GnuTLS with Emacs > =C2=A0should be post-24.1. > > - Phoning home on startup by default is out of the question. =C2=A0[...] > > - I am open to improvements to package.el to implement _periodic_ update > =C2=A0checking, [...] I 100% agree with all the points above. > =C2=A0If a really serious security flaw is found in GnuPG, and we are > =C2=A0distributing GnuPG with Emacs, we should make an Emacs security > =C2=A0release, exactly as though it was a security flaw in Emacs itself. I think that's clear. But IMO, in the case we are discussing, we should not distribute the GnuTLS DLL, just as we don't distribute libpng or libxml2. If we make it available through ELPA (which I don't like, but like much more than the alternative), then of course security releases of the relevant package would be available through ELPA too. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:28:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWK1-0006my-Cy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:28:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45377) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWJy-0006kU-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:28:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWJw-0005C8-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:28:30 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57471) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWJw-0005Bs-LW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:28:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWJs-00023A-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:28:24 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:28:24 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:28:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:28:11 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 59 Message-ID: <87y5tjr6ac.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r4zczwbq.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87aa60yduw.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87d3av95eg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:CcASbmxqbVst2BWgiuVFCwGpozw= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:28:31 -0000 On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:24:39 +0800 Chong Yidong wrote: CY> - First of all, any change involving distributing GnuTLS with Emacs CY> should be post-24.1. OK; see below. CY> - Phoning home on startup by default is out of the question. There are CY> lots of users with the "open Emacs many times" usage pattern, even CY> though that usage pattern is discouraged. Accessing the network for CY> each startup would be unreasonable, quite apart from the privacy CY> concerns (GNU knows each time you launch Emacs!) CY> - I am open to improvements to package.el to implement _periodic_ update CY> checking, and improvements to check for updates in M-x list-packages. CY> It is probably not too difficult to add some infrastructure to CY> highlight "strongly recommended updates" in the Package Menu. OK. How about a new variable `package-critical-packages' which is empty by default? When it has elements, Emacs will check on startup if those packages have been updated, and after the 24.1 release we can add highlighting to the package list, plus some UI to add/remove packages to the critical list. I would really like to get the basic functionality, off by default, into 24.1. I think the risk is minimal and the benefit to users is significant. The UI will also be simpler, just y/n to the update (no need for the "never bother me about this again" choice), since we know that any packages in the critical list were added by the user. I think periodic checks won't work well in the Emacs world, but perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean. CY> - I agree with Lars' point that >> I don't really see that there's much of a difference between bugs in >> libgnutls and in the Emacs binary proper. If a major security hole was >> discovered in Emacs, then presumably a new Emacs release would be made. >> If a major libgnutls hole was discovered, then presumably someone would >> zip up a new Windows release. CY> If a really serious security flaw is found in GnuPG, and we are CY> distributing GnuPG with Emacs, we should make an Emacs security CY> release, exactly as though it was a security flaw in Emacs itself. OK. Since the consensus seems to be that the platform-specific installer's maintainers, not emacs-devel, should deal with installing GnuTLS and other third-party libraries, the responsibility for such security releases should be with the installer's maintainers, and each platform will have to figure out its own way to notify the user that there's a critical security update. If you agree, this work doesn't have to wait for the 24.1 release since it won't require changes to Emacs. For a W32 installer I can work with Joakim. For Mac OS X I don't know if the NS port, when bundled as an app, can include its own GnuTLS and other libraries, or if we'll require a real installer. On both those platforms self-updating should be possible. Does all of that make sense? Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:35:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWQb-0008Ky-Th for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:35:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45221) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWQZ-0008Kh-DU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:35:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWQX-0006Rb-Qk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:35:19 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:34289) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWQX-0006RV-KE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:35:17 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWQW-00053H-M1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:35:16 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:35:16 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:35:16 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:35:06 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 13 Message-ID: <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:lz/ombOeYhVSZ+xda2vYufFnKPs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:35:20 -0000 On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:38 +0100 Richard Riley wrote: RR> I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit of RR> a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end RR> user and, more importantly, the new adopter. Not at all, everyone in the discussion made good points and helped me (and others, I hope) see things more clearly. It's not always obvious to any single developer, especially me with my limited W32 experience, what's the right approach on a particular platform and how to balance that with the general Emacs needs. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:40:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWVL-00019A-Cy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:40:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51984) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWVJ-000194-5I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:40:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWVH-00073B-LX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:40:13 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:43749) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWVH-00072y-4m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:40:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWVF-0007Eq-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:40:09 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:40:09 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:40:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:37:56 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 13 Message-ID: <87pqevr5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:SWkyV1vgieeXR/SrI1pdRIlnE1E= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:40:14 -0000 On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:30:27 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> Right. I don't reject adding such a system, with a note in NEWS JB> saying: "if you want automatic warning of updates, customize the JB> variable `emacs-check-for-updates'"- However, I do fear that, once the JB> system is in place, for 24.2 or 25.1 we will heard people say that the JB> default should be t. I think the final decision should be up to the Emacs maintainers. So far Stefan and Chong have said there is no chance of enabling automatic update checks by default, so I think you can stop worrying. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:45:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWaF-0002xy-J5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:45:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36368) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWaB-0002n0-F0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:45:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWaA-0007qF-7c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:45:15 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:32799) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWa9-0007m3-Se for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:45:14 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWa3-0000zH-LC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:45:07 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:45:07 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:45:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: fixing memory leaks before the pretest (was: Update on the Emacs release schedule?) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:44:15 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 19 Message-ID: <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:QxqCedHkSu0mryc5GOFnM+ItXtM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:45:17 -0000 On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:10:38 +0800 Chong Yidong wrote: CY> As for the code, there are still a number of issues that need more CY> attention, most prominently the mysterious memory leak(s) that may or CY> may not involve Gnus and/or GnuTLS and/or Mac OS X. I am seeing memory growth on GNU/Linux with Gnus and GnuTLS that I don't see otherwise without Gnus, so it's faintly possible GnuTLS is not the determining factor. I have gone over the gnutls.c code and don't see where the GnuTLS glue could be leaking. If it is, I'll need a tool like Valgrind to help me, and last time I tried that, the reports were not helpful to me (too much data, not enough leading back to GnuTLS). I spent 2 days on this last week and meant to bring it up this week, actually (the discussion about GnuTLS on W32 sort of distracted me :) Maybe someone who actually knows how to use Valgrind could help me or try to find the leaks themselves? Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:50:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWey-0004QH-Lo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:50:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49082) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWew-0004Pj-8W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:50:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWet-0000CL-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:50:10 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:34640) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWet-0000C2-Kc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:50:07 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWes-0003KU-Gc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:50:06 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:50:06 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:50:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:45:56 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 8 Message-ID: <87hb07r5gr.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:dk4RZiPlGSu1Cv91fR72wzKnRgo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:50:11 -0000 On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:02:59 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> Reading Tom Tromey's recent blog post, I'd say any improvements CM> to the allocator and/or collector will be a huge NEWS entry for 24. The post can be found at http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 and is worth a read. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 08:56:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjWlU-0006KO-P6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:56:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43771) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWlS-0006KH-Ua for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:56:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWlR-0000w2-PA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:56:54 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:41691 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjWlR-0000vr-Eu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:56:53 -0500 Received: (qmail 71542 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jan 2012 13:56:48 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD951BFA3.dip.t-dialin.net [217.81.191.163]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:56:45 +0100 Received: (qmail 17262 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jan 2012 13:50:17 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:50:17 +0000 To: Kentaro NAKAZAWA Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120107135017.GA15873@acm.acm> References: <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:56:56 -0000 Hi, Kentaro, On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 09:09:01AM +0900, Kentaro NAKAZAWA wrote: > Hello, Alan. > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > Would you try this patch and let me know how it goes, please. [ .... ] > Thank you for the patch. > I applied a patch, it came to be able to edit the attribute.h comfortably. > The original file with the problem is comfortable too. > However, some key words were not colored. Could you be more specific, please - tell me which keywords weren't fontified, and exactly what you did for this to happen. Thanks! > -- > Kentaro Nakazawa -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 09:51:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjXcH-00059S-LD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:51:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60843) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXcF-00059C-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:51:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXcE-0008BQ-Ak for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:51:27 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48654) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXcD-0008BM-TY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:51:26 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXc8-0005lm-Er for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:51:21 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:51:20 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:51:20 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:51:06 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Sa60RAcHf2AQFjvhRpvb0pYWZTA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:51:28 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 06:40:38 +0100 Richard Riley wrote: > > RR> I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit of > RR> a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end > RR> user and, more importantly, the new adopter. > > Not at all, everyone in the discussion made good points and helped me Possibly you are more battle hardened in the discussions here ;) There is a clear group specific technique to fall back on : and much of it is word games. Well, thats how I read it .. and invariably its down to the point I noted about fixating on phrases like "emacs component": anyways - nothing more from me on the subject other than to say whatever can be done ot support the inexperienced or new user the better - the more eperienced users can toggle defaults to how they want them. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 10:11:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjXvo-0007YR-Nh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:11:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXvn-0007YL-0d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:11:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXvl-0002fp-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:11:38 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:45571) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXvl-0002fk-M8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:11:37 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so2147098pbd.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=W1avgEjJzLHLtNzBf7CNgIsKLey6a4rh+EHH4NrLhuM=; b=KRUI4q7nyLZ07ZIhT6Gwb+4G53tmHCDT6YG954e9uqJz34733c30fGmHFR1QED+1+b ZkAbd8Tg3jzbmi+PDwXTvQvsXfaImC0JIv1ozElqt0aht0cTo/piTwnuSew+8S9CsKPD kFs8v1LxOo+6xjDyPPQ2aRoyH7CkwuUi4ZzrI= Received: by 10.68.130.170 with SMTP id of10mr3439311pbb.84.1325949096378; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 07:10:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqevr5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> <546D7C22-520D-46A9-8AA1-9D33CF2F6782@gmail.com> <87obuhpqrl.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k455pncx.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87fwftpjqi.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87zke02qg1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87pqevr5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 16:10:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:11:39 -0000 2012/1/7 Ted Zlatanov : > I think the final decision should be up to the Emacs maintainers. Of course. > So > far Stefan and Chong have said there is no chance of enabling automatic > update checks by default, so I think you can stop worrying. Consider me officially un-worried. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 10:13:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjXxc-00085R-5d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:13:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXxa-00085F-15 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:13:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXxZ-0002ro-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:13:29 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:63238) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjXxZ-0002rk-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:13:29 -0500 Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so2147765pbd.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:13:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uL7oSwN+87OXSOr4RTqcALZYC1R8Fw2B3I4CPYh99IM=; b=oJiIyRKyad76YmaQOOkiv8AfU7MXRNDrS/ymexK98hxTotBsWKPmQxsluwQSvonlQ7 Ocgbo/X9AVs7GzfcVqFfpvsHXjzsWEZHQgzvwQlEY3sKkQfcKA9+PYLCLG9FUq2SaXzR 2gvzrPvmLvTXkiuU+J9YFWspxpz6ArriMZCc4= Received: by 10.68.73.234 with SMTP id o10mr24735875pbv.90.1325949208208; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 07:13:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 07:12:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 16:12:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:13:30 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 15:51, Richard Riley wrote: > There is a clear group specific technique to fall back on : and much of > it is word games. Well, thats how I read it .. and invariably its down > to the point I noted about fixating on phrases like "emacs component": FWIW, I wasn't involving in word games, and I was not fixated in such a phrase. I rejected the notion, clear and simple. It had nothing to do with the wording. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 10:49:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjYWD-0007Rd-GY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:49:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36622) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjYW7-0007Q8-T5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:49:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjYW6-00084T-WC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:49:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42370) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjYW6-00084P-TD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:49:10 -0500 Received: from bb220-255-176-96.singnet.com.sg ([220.255.176.96]:48864 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjYW6-0001D5-50 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:49:10 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: fixing memory leaks before the pretest References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:49:01 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:44:15 -0500") Message-ID: <87sjjrzf6a.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:49:15 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > I am seeing memory growth on GNU/Linux with Gnus and GnuTLS that I > don't see otherwise without Gnus, so it's faintly possible GnuTLS is > not the determining factor. I have gone over the gnutls.c code and > don't see where the GnuTLS glue could be leaking. Do you have a test case for, e.g. creating and closing a few thousand GnuTLS connections to a localhost running apache with https and seeing if there is any memory impact? That would be the first thing I would try, but I haven't had the time to look into this. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 11:57:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjZaW-0000aL-4W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:57:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35888) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZaT-0000YO-0N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:57:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZaP-0008DH-C6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:57:44 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:37803) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZaP-0008D0-6F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:57:41 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5100056iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:57:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k7T0xJCAKvPSVSjaBjZXTNXGuUj+dOHr4C2IXUf0Cf4=; b=GI/WOENrNQl9ik5M1CoL+4PEl8lkFFvMsDOGjq1GvXrf+r3Nha74nUqlSITc0DAfyk VZEw19HBjUOGBRnFnrBxw8khmfoK3Za//rf6Dh7JOkdDBE2abutcktOTv2OyhdwCYSfg CD22U280IgSch/mmnHh3TO4NK3s7bMMddoupE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.29.6 with SMTP id p6mr9552188icc.44.1325955458354; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 08:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 08:57:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:57:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: fixing memory leaks before the pretest (was: Update on the Emacs release schedule?) From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:57:46 -0000 2012/1/7 Ted Zlatanov : > On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:10:38 +0800 Chong Yidong wrote: > > CY> As for the code, there are still a number of issues that need more > CY> attention, most prominently the mysterious memory leak(s) that may or > CY> may not involve Gnus and/or GnuTLS and/or Mac OS X. > > I am seeing memory growth on GNU/Linux with Gnus and GnuTLS that I don't > see otherwise without Gnus, so it's faintly possible GnuTLS is not the > determining factor. =A0I have gone over the gnutls.c code and don't see > where the GnuTLS glue could be leaking. =A0If it is, I'll need a tool lik= e > Valgrind to help me, and last time I tried that, the reports were not > helpful to me (too much data, not enough leading back to GnuTLS). =A0I > spent 2 days on this last week and meant to bring it up this week, > actually (the discussion about GnuTLS on W32 sort of distracted me :) > > Maybe someone who actually knows how to use Valgrind could help me or > try to find the leaks themselves? Tried LLVM AddressSanitizer? It's supposed to be a low-impact compile flag. http://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html >From the documentation I'm not sure it's useful for finding leaks. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 12:02:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjZfF-0003rb-Dm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 12:02:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58338) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZfC-0003r1-JH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 12:02:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZfB-0000UI-7N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 12:02:38 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:47260) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjZfB-0000UE-3M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 12:02:37 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5105076iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:02:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=m8OwznnCVXia7dZN+sb2VI3NBgEJH7+Kz+HCWEQM+/M=; b=ainzRmHR+vJfffaC/z0dJZRdtXoSl6xaXLezVn/EVh+RkbA7Sa7b6/2yioLMBO+nvU B0QlwmaLsirWwQSejUyu5pwmm9W9WOCxdxth4cf0vrIzjAJe5cGFJ8zYP0ha+PtP3q5k uoEt3Pv6p9KfpSjUbyjA3vU9DOtRcp3PfoPNo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.195.129 with SMTP id ie1mr11830521igc.29.1325955756142; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:02:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87hb07r5gr.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> <87hb07r5gr.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 18:02:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:02:39 -0000 2012/1/7 Ted Zlatanov : > On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:02:59 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: > > CM> Reading Tom Tromey's recent blog post, I'd say any improvements > CM> to the allocator and/or collector will be a huge NEWS entry for 24. > > The post can be found at http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 and is worth a read. Some of the comments on tromey.com and at http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=3433424 plus http://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/o5yx9/ seem to not know the current state of Guile's elisp branch and even more some seem to dismiss Guile as inferior to cmucl/sbcl while explaining the non-adoption of Common Lisp in Emacs with a missing "good" GNU Common Lisp implementation. I don't know, but that sounds like uninformed ranting to me. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 13:11:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjakF-0006cQ-W5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:11:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44673) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjakD-0006cJ-Uw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:11:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjakD-00034r-6f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:11:53 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:61892) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjakB-00034d-Va; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:11:52 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAE2KCE9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABDrEKBBoFyAQEEAUcPIwULCzQSFBgNJIgNqCCNNIwRBIg5mlWEUg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,473,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="155668324" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 07 Jan 2012 13:11:50 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7D3386610B; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:11:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? Message-ID: References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:11:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:02:59 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:11:54 -0000 > For the record, I use a --without-gnutls Emacs while also not > using Gnus, and am part of the users seeing the "leaks". AFAIK you're not seeing leaks, but only excessive memory use (and failure to return memory to the system early enough for your taste), Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 13:32:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjb4F-0002VS-Lg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:32:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42485) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjb4D-0002VJ-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:32:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjb4C-0005ka-8U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:32:33 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:37346) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjb4A-0005kA-6j; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:32:30 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5207874iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=44Xog+l3OmXq5u2B3nA2EiRyOD/dmxXVSeYMDqMhiTc=; b=bEm2nlPBgvojoQy7wGaBFYDM2OJ6I2xQvOt3pYjUK63idegqw06Ya9x+CrLy8e9QPV gryY9ktlYlW+mgYOsaVh9fboLG/tVMuGtVcST8KnUdPLdZeToMxM226J4A/57vClpbXf GHlLP235zZ8ofhfqhc4/zVD+NWuTw5VJ+xW8k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.85.199 with SMTP id j7mr2956584igz.25.1325961149399; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.106.132 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:32:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? From: Carsten Mattner To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:32:34 -0000 On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> For the record, I use a --without-gnutls Emacs while also not >> using Gnus, and am part of the users seeing the "leaks". > > AFAIK you're not seeing leaks, but only excessive memory use (and > failure to return memory to the system early enough for your taste), Maybe :). How do we define "early enough"? Hours or days? I have let it run for hours a couple times without any memory being released. I don't want to criticize, but believe it's best to report what I see, which is apparently similar to what others see. This is all unscientific and I'd be happy to be shown I was wrong. How about we agree on a common set of probes and statistic gathering methods and only report the same set of measurements? To make it comparable. I started to wonder about emacs memory usage when on Linux it consumed 90 to 100 megs. I could hardly believe my eyes, having just edited a couple small source files. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 14:10:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjbfK-0001Gk-7W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44267) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjbfI-0001Ge-Cz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjbfH-0003Hx-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:52 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:40620) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjbfH-0003Hp-3F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:10:51 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5247595iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:10:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date :to:subject:x-mailer:reply-to:from:x-attribution; bh=NY9Y5mepqZTf9+Q/HDZEq3kT/ILFdbIcVHZLo42ceYY=; b=jgOXrfAEjvr4CpORtjtssuxz00R5L/wHZnhIHQF4PDDsL439oRRa6ZiAancJMZYWUY SOqvoH2VMfaDGBX1OKwMPPPOrOFbOsDFwvT+WQSGbmSHFPjrD0FSq7SJXdzZaN66bGko gstST09nOxs2wZsdJxPCJmqNGVbTdF3zk0oPg= Received: by 10.42.171.136 with SMTP id j8mr10214053icz.1.1325963450105; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from labrador.google.com (c-71-202-188-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [71.202.188.217]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l28sm229016858ibc.3.2012.01.07.11.10.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:10:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:10:42 -0800 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 24.0.92.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) From: "T. V. Raman" x-attribution: tvr X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:10:53 -0000 Hi, This problem started after a git update from savannah yesterday. Environment: Ubuntu 10.0 Linux Console (i.e. outside X) TERM=linux (terminal type) I suddenly found the arrow keys invoking facemenu-set-default. Describe Function (attached output below) on facemenu-set-default shows that it is indeed bound to \eOD, which coincidentally is what the left arrow key generates on the linux console. I verified that this is still true with emacs -q -- but with a minimal emacspeak environment loaded; I dont believe the binding is coming from Emacspeak as far as I can tell. facemenu-set-default is an interactive Lisp function. It is bound to meta o d , META cap G d , d , d . (facemenu-set-default) Select face `default' for subsequent insertion. If the mark is active and there is no prefix argument, apply face `default' to the region instead. This command was defined by `facemenu-add-new-face'. -- Best Regards, --raman From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 15:13:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjceG-0006gD-C1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:13:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40231) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjceE-0006g5-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:13:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjceD-0002Bl-DK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:13:50 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:56129) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjceD-0002BY-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:13:49 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F629DAE for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 21:13:43 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 9582 invoked by uid 89); 7 Jan 2012 20:12:37 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 7 Jan 2012 20:12:37 -0000 Received: from [172.20.199.248] (janiphone [172.20.199.248]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BDB47FA058; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 21:13:43 +0100 (CET) References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: =?utf-8?Q?Jan_Dj=C3=A4rv?= Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 21:13:39 +0100 To: Carsten Mattner X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: Chong Yidong , Stefan Monnier , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:13:51 -0000 Hello. 7 jan 2012 kl. 19:32 skrev Carsten Mattner : > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Stefan Monnier w= rote: >>> For the record, I use a --without-gnutls Emacs while also not >>> using Gnus, and am part of the users seeing the "leaks". >>=20 >> AFAIK you're not seeing leaks, but only excessive memory use (and >> failure to return memory to the system early enough for your taste), >=20 > Maybe :). How do we define "early enough"? Hours or days? Never. AFAIK Osx never gives back memory allocated to the system. That is why changing malloc implementation might be the only solution.=20 Jan D.= From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 15:36:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjd0N-0007aU-HJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:36:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44542) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjd0K-0007OU-3i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:36:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjd0I-0004jS-SH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:36:39 -0500 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]:54860) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjd0H-0004jC-LU; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:36:37 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EE1760063; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC58451C760; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:35:46 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Organization: JURTA References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:27:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:12:49 -0500") Message-ID: <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.113.175.8 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:36:41 -0000 > I thought that e would be a useful command > back when I supposed info files would be written by hand. > But we don't do that, so e is not useful and maybe only causes trouble. There is more trouble when this obsolete feature is announced in the customization group `info' via its customizable variable `Info-enable-edit'. It would be better to hide it from the Customization interface by changing `defcustom' to `defvar': === modified file 'lisp/info.el' --- lisp/info.el 2011-12-05 09:52:02 +0000 +++ lisp/info.el 2012-01-07 20:27:15 +0000 @@ -61,14 +61,12 @@ :group 'info :version "24.1") -(defcustom Info-enable-edit nil - "Non-nil means the \\\\[Info-edit] command in Info can edit the current node. +(defvar Info-enable-edit nil + "Non-nil means the `Info-edit' command in Info can edit the current node. This is convenient if you want to write Info files by hand. However, we recommend that you not do this. It is better to write a Texinfo file and generate the Info file from that, -because that gives you a printed manual as well." - :type 'boolean - :group 'info) +because that gives you a printed manual as well.") (defvar Info-enable-active-nodes nil "Non-nil allows Info to execute Lisp code associated with nodes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 16:07:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjdTx-0000oi-A9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:07:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57103) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjdTu-0000mT-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:07:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjdTt-0000kv-10 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:07:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:46655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjdTs-0000kX-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:07:12 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjdTp-0007Mr-HW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:07:09 +0100 Received: from p5481f804.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.129.248.4]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:07:09 +0100 Received: from Reiner.Steib by p5481f804.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:07:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Reiner Steib Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:03:55 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87vcongr7o.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> References: <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h151x01.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5tkzzwp.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p5481f804.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: #vK]N[`vqjuod*|)'[iD7/"3AB-ApT%fmN"LWAg@oS7OesGv~)n[OBTLM#I="J'Y^-7I I/ps7o_'IK@#-Rs{::DZ@O8yS|fexe,XslY[:dNWOb~>?mC-&i_c)say:"\IpA.5U.b]'NY; Pks{lb h.+#6%DpZuaK3dcHB`Av3zc:r!C%~s0&m, tWj]&}, qg.+0ww2gK%f!:GK|wMl.I!(voY*1"^li8"~B BNG)9LvPi?^DMR-GVDnZqhu*3Hi, +g=wFhI)BL6&u{EOVEHjVEVq~d?_}lMntWAc3(6?kftjc>_f>! g0wM(qPM$d5]^TT_Qyi&L?LGVG)SHN;Gk/,pkY9,~ Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:7TQGAir+6OtP1ZlwWnmjItY+X+I= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Reiner Steib List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:07:15 -0000 On Fri, Jan 06 2012, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > 2012/1/6 Ted Zlatanov : > >> The intention is to do whatever is appropriate on the platform to let >> the user know they need to update and make the update easy. > > There's no single, general definition of "appropriate". > >> I'm not. The risk is not worth the effort with image libraries. > > I don't understand why. Buffer overruns exploited through > carefully-crafted images have been used before. yes, see e.g. CVE-2011-0408, http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/388984, http://www.google.com/search?q=libpng+arbitrary+code+execution > I would fear that (as a vector for malware) much more than someone > eavesdropping my communications. I agree. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 16:26:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjdmh-00055W-5w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:26:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52088) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjdme-000539-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:26:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjdme-000321-0o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:26:36 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41642) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjdmc-00031h-Iq; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:26:34 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q07LQUcb018925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 21:26:31 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q07LQTm2006406 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 21:26:29 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q07LQS0M018792; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:26:28 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.141) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 13:26:28 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" , References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:26:21 -0800 Message-ID: <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> thread-index: AczNfA6C/Jvr9Q3MRbigm662YjU5rgABgt6Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4F08B887.0042,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:26:37 -0000 > > I thought that e would be a useful command > > back when I supposed info files would be written by hand. > > But we don't do that, so e is not useful and maybe only > > causes trouble. > > There is more trouble when this obsolete feature Since when is it obsolete? > is announced in the customization group `info' via its > customizable variable `Info-enable-edit'. It would be > better to hide it from the Customization interface by > changing `defcustom' to `defvar': Why? What if someone wants to create a small Info file and doesn't want to bother with texinfo or doesn't have the conversion/make tools handy? Why does it hurt for this to be a defcustom? Just leave the default value as nil. What's more, this is an entirely different question from the one raised by this thread, which is about the `e' binding. It should be enough that the binding of `e' is changed to `end-of-buffer' and the option value remains nil by default. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 16:49:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rje8W-0007kd-JJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:49:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33737) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rje8U-0007kX-EI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:49:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rje8T-0005ZG-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:49:10 -0500 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]:60754) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rje8S-0005Yy-KH; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 16:49:08 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224F6760050; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E595451C766; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:48:17 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Organization: JURTA References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:46:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:26:21 -0800") Message-ID: <878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.113.175.8 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:49:11 -0000 >> There is more trouble when this obsolete feature > > Since when is it obsolete? Since its inception. Info-edit was never documented in info.texi. (And perhaps references to `Info-edit-map' should be removed from elisp.texi) > Why does it hurt for this to be a defcustom? Think about a novice looking at the available options in the Customization group `info'. It would be a disservice to teach them that editing Info nodes is a good idea. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 17:16:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjeYU-0002eo-RC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:16:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49541) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjeYR-0002Vo-AO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:16:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjeYQ-0000Cz-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:15:59 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:20879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjeYO-0000CB-24; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:15:56 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q07MFr8C018652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:15:54 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q07MFqwH025196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:15:52 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q07MFqXQ014535; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 16:15:52 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.141) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:15:51 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> <878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:15:45 -0800 Message-ID: <76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> thread-index: AczNhjCBMUGiSVLhQIW1/Co4zo5i2AAAVZGg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4F08C41A.004D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:16:00 -0000 > >> There is more trouble when this obsolete feature > > > > Since when is it obsolete? > > Since its inception. Info-edit was never documented in info.texi. > (And perhaps references to `Info-edit-map' should be removed > from elisp.texi) That a feature is not documented everywhere, or is poor or misguided, does not mean that it is obsolete. It is certainly not the case that a command that has been bound to a key (especially for decades) can be said to be undocumented or invisible/unknown to users. Let alone considered obsolete. Think how many commands and key bindings are not documented in any manual. They are certainly not all - or even any of them - "obsolete" since their inception. Emacs documentation is not limited to manuals, and user awareness of features is not even limited to any form of documentation. We provide source code, and that is the foundation of user communication. Typically, for a feature or a product to be considered obsolete (officially), it must first be officially deprecated. And typically there is a period of time between deprecation and obsolescence - typically a relatively major release or more. Typically, an obsolete feature is no longer supported, and a deprecated feature is still supported. For example, it might be decided to announce the deprecation of this option in 24.1, and then make it obsolete in 24.2 (since Emacs point releases are relatively major). Given such a decision, it would change from a defcustom to a defvar, or even be eliminated altogether, in 24.2, depending on what was intended wrt desupport (as an option or even as a variable). > > Why does it hurt for this to be a defcustom? > > Think about a novice looking at the available options > in the Customization group `info'. It would be a disservice > to teach them that editing Info nodes is a good idea. The existence of a user option is not the same thing as suggesting that changing its value is necessarily a good idea. We have lots of user options that it might not be a good idea for a novice, in particular, to customize. We provide plenty of rope for users to hang themselves, often even using only Customize. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 18:14:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjfT8-00019u-CS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:14:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44427) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjfT4-00012X-HK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:14:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjfT3-0006FP-Q9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:14:30 -0500 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]:37659) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjfT2-0006FB-76; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:14:28 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE70760089; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B64451C768; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:13:38 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Organization: JURTA References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> <878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:10:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 14:15:45 -0800") Message-ID: <87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.113.175.8 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:14:31 -0000 > For example, it might be decided to announce the deprecation of this option in > 24.1, and then make it obsolete in 24.2 (since Emacs point releases are > relatively major). The Info-edit feature is already deprecated in 23.1. And paradoxically, the person who deprecated this feature is you, Drew. When your Info-breadcrumbs code was added to info.el, it broke Info-edit because the added breadcrumbs line is saved to Info files after editing. But nobody complained about this breakage since nobody uses it ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 18:27:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjffQ-0003QT-B2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:27:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43343) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjffN-0003OI-At for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:27:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjffM-0007XA-Ho for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:27:13 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:35792) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjffK-0007Wp-RA; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:27:11 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q07NR8BA001742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:27:09 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q07NR8DW001893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:27:08 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q07NR81l014147; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:27:08 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.141) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:27:07 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com> <87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:27:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> thread-index: AczNkhxDUf4jF67FSzGjUSQN6THZWwAAEa1w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F08D4CD.0067,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:27:14 -0000 > > For example, it might be decided to announce the > > deprecation of this option in 24.1, and then make it > > obsolete in 24.2 (since Emacs point releases are > > relatively major). > > The Info-edit feature is already deprecated in 23.1. > And paradoxically, the person who deprecated this > feature is you, Drew. > > When your Info-breadcrumbs code was added to info.el, it > broke Info-edit because the added breadcrumbs line is > saved to Info files after editing. But nobody complained > about this breakage since nobody uses it ;-) You're still missing the point, Juri. What I said about obsolescence wrt official announcement holds for deprecation as well. Something is neither made obsolete nor deprecated just because it is broken or no one uses it. There are thousands of things in Emacs that one might find no one uses, and plenty of things that are broken (we do have a non-negligible list of outstanding bugs). Neither means that such things are deprecated. Typically, deprecation involves an official announcement. It constitutes a heads-up to users so that they can think about moving away from it. It is fair warning that in an upcoming release the feature might be (or will be, depending on the deprecation notice) made obsolete, e.g., desupported. I find nothing in the Emacs 23.1, or 23.2, or 23.3 NEWS about `Info-edit', in particular, no deprecation notice. Unless such a notice appeared somewhere else that I haven't found, `Info-edit' was not deprecated in 23.1, even if 23.1 happened to break it (whether by breadcrumbs or some other way). The fact that this feature might have been broken (whenever), and the fact that perhaps no one used it (whenever), have nothing to do with the non-fact that it was deprecated (whenever). From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 18:49:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjg16-0005G0-E8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:49:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54270) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjg13-0005Eb-Mj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:49:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjg12-0001WU-Rp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:49:37 -0500 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]:58050) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjg11-0001WD-D5; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:49:35 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5487E76005F; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D04451C768; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:48:45 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Organization: JURTA References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> <878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com> <87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:47:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:27:01 -0800") Message-ID: <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.113.175.8 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:49:38 -0000 > I find nothing in the Emacs 23.1, or 23.2, or 23.3 NEWS about `Info-edit', in > particular, no deprecation notice. Unless such a notice appeared somewhere else > that I haven't found, `Info-edit' was not deprecated in 23.1, even if 23.1 > happened to break it (whether by breadcrumbs or some other way). There are two ways to make a feature legally obsolete: `de jure' and `de facto'. De facto it's already obsolete since 23.1, and now you propose to declare this fact de jure. I agree that we could do this now by adding a deprecation notice. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 20:08:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjhFC-0007IP-M3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF9-0007Gi-QE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF8-0003HY-T6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:15 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:37334) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhF6-0003HA-Vy; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:08:13 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0818AlV024938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:08:11 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08189G5000731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:08:10 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08189Kh015022; Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:08:09 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.141) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:08:08 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> thread-index: AczNlwOJmYFslxOITVO2S80NRL8Q/wABBw5A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F08EC7B.0058,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:08:16 -0000 > > I find nothing in the Emacs 23.1, or 23.2, or 23.3 NEWS > > about `Info-edit', in particular, no deprecation notice. > > Unless such a notice appeared somewhere else > > that I haven't found, `Info-edit' was not deprecated in > > 23.1, even if 23.1 happened to break it (whether by > > breadcrumbs or some other way). > > There are two ways to make a feature legally obsolete: `de > jure' and `de facto'. > > De facto it's already obsolete since 23.1, Nope; it's not. Just because a bug exists does not mean that something is obsolete, de jure, de facto, or de lusion. And the particular bug you point to is apparently an incompatibility between two features (breadcrumbs and `Info-edit'). That could be fixed any number of ways, none of which need amount to the abandonment of either feature. > and now you propose to declare this fact de jure. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I proposed nothing of the kind. > I agree that we could do this now by adding a > deprecation notice. You agree with yourself. ;-) Wrt breadcrumbs, you yourself pointed to several problems other than the one you would now use as a reason to deprecate `Info-edit' (bugs #1447, #5809, #5998). By your logic and using your terms, breadcrumbs have been obsolete, de facto, from their inception. The saving of inserted text, as you have pointed out, breaks more than `Info-edit', so it certainly should not by itself be an argument for making the latter obsolete. You already proposed disabling breadcrumbs (for 23.2) because of such problems. And you proposed multiple different solutions for those bugs, including changes to the display engine, redesigning header lines, and designing "a new window infrastructure that supports window groups" - fixes of varying complexity. And I offered a patch that uses the mode line for breadcrumbs as an alternative, with none of the problems of breadcrumbs in the body text or header. (No one tried, or commented on, the patch I sent.) http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=5809#140 And in my own code I offer users that alternative (breadcrumbs in header/text or in mode line, or both), with a quick toggle for mode-line display. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/info%2b.el Pointing to bugs for Info breadcrumbs as a reason why `Info-edit' has supposedly been obsolete de jure since Emacs 23.1 is a little much, especially since those same bugs cause problems beyond `Info-edit'. It is a red herring de facto, in facto. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 20:13:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjhKU-0007kN-5l for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:13:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59386) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhKM-0007k7-LH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:13:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhKL-0003xx-CB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:13:38 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39551) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhKK-0003xt-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:13:37 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhKK-0004zi-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:13:36 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:13:36 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:13:36 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:07:51 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:giMv0Pn50zL6B6lErOSYBfNW3IM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:13:45 -0000 on Sat Jan 07 2012, Dimitri Fontaine wrote: > Christian Lynbech writes: >> I use Emacs on OSX everyday too, and I use gnus as my one and only way >> to read mail, and it works quite well for me (except I am experiencing >> some issues with w3m after upgrading my laptop to Lion). This is emacs24 >> using the trunk version and upstream gnus. > > With Emacs24 and gnus and flyspell, on macosx, Emacs gets slower and > slower to the point that if I want to edit medium to large size C files > (more than 6k lines, say) I need to restart Emacs. Yeah, that's one reason John Wiegley has been using Mitsuharu's Emacs23 port. Subprocess handling seems to actually work there. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 20:15:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjhLs-000895-DQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:15:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40733) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhLp-00088K-Re for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:15:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhLo-0004Li-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:15:09 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39742) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhLo-0004LF-2g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:15:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhLn-0005U4-4s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:15:07 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:15:07 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:15:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:10:28 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:EBmXHG14ZhrMEBO+PmBcSHRgWJ0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:15:11 -0000 on Sat Jan 07 2012, Dimitri Fontaine wrote: > Christian Lynbech writes: >> I use Emacs on OSX everyday too, and I use gnus as my one and only way >> to read mail, and it works quite well for me (except I am experiencing >> some issues with w3m after upgrading my laptop to Lion). This is emacs24 >> using the trunk version and upstream gnus. > > With Emacs24 and gnus and flyspell, on macosx, Emacs gets slower and > slower to the point that if I want to edit medium to large size C files > (more than 6k lines, say) I need to restart Emacs. > > I've been told flyspell usage is what makes emacs slower and slower on > this system but didn't have anytime to spend on that yet. It would be > awesome to see the problem fixed though :) > > That's the only problem I have here and basically “I live in Emacs”. Oh, I should also point out that this problem affects the usability of GDB in Emacs 24. It is most likely a general problem with process handling. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 20:29:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjhZG-0001To-K4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:29:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50211) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhZE-0001S7-75 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:29:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhZD-0006H9-3B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:29:00 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:58655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhZC-0006H3-Ri for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:28:58 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5598500iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:28:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=HCyvKD2zVaYZywlwkE4HlsDdtQz1hF2bPOQySmhO4SE=; b=t1KBzDfqgmyYRE3f+HLdKdh+955tvQD15AhXjXgfV311I9ggaG+ngRhx9H0pKxm3le exS9zfJN55gs6yAyAW3mwNEA68v2P0o86CcglowCS7Z4Cl2bkA2SBr7hjL45K+n0YTfI bphDlHHjWPyRwSTLi0bNggT66abjbb/TlZJ5o= Received: by 10.50.222.233 with SMTP id qp9mr3928079igc.1.1325986138270; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:28:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id va6sm39878716igc.6.2012.01.07.17.28.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 07 Jan 2012 17:28:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:28:55 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9E637EAB-A0C5-421B-9CCA-71C41442AF52@gmail.com> <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> To: Dimitri Fontaine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:29:01 -0000 On Jan 7, 2012, at 5:09 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote: >=20 > With Emacs24 and gnus and flyspell, on macosx, Emacs gets slower and > slower to the point that if I want to edit medium to large size C = files > (more than 6k lines, say) I need to restart Emacs. >=20 > I've been told flyspell usage is what makes emacs slower and slower on > this system but didn't have anytime to spend on that yet. It would be > awesome to see the problem fixed though :) >=20 > That's the only problem I have here and basically =93I live in Emacs=94.= I don't see this problem with flyspell (which I use constantly), but I = don't use gnus, and I rarely edit C code anymore. Would you be willing = to test without one of those three (flyspell, gnus, CC-mode) for a short = bit? There are some known issues that make subprocesses slow (usually hits = flyspell, although it's still usually fast enough in my experience), and = there have been several discussions about slowness in CC-mode due to = unusual cases lately. Thanks, *Chad= From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 21:39:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjifb-0003EE-Op for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:39:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48371) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjifY-0003D3-US for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:39:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjifW-0005dd-RO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:39:36 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:62700) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjifW-0005d8-71 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:39:34 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C33C055D; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:39:27 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:39:27 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: fixing memory leaks before the pretest (was: Update on the Emacs release schedule?) In-Reply-To: References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:39:38 -0000 >>>>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:57:38 +0100, Carsten Mattner said: > 2012/1/7 Ted Zlatanov : >> On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:10:38 +0800 Chong Yidong >> wrote: >>=20 CY> As for the code, there are still a number of issues that need more CY> attention, most prominently the mysterious memory leak(s) that may CY> or may not involve Gnus and/or GnuTLS and/or Mac OS X. >>=20 >> I am seeing memory growth on GNU/Linux with Gnus and GnuTLS that I >> don't see otherwise without Gnus, so it's faintly possible GnuTLS >> is not the determining factor. =A0I have gone over the gnutls.c code >> and don't see where the GnuTLS glue could be leaking. =A0If it is, >> I'll need a tool like Valgrind to help me, and last time I tried >> that, the reports were not helpful to me (too much data, not enough >> leading back to GnuTLS). =A0I spent 2 days on this last week and >> meant to bring it up this week, actually (the discussion about >> GnuTLS on W32 sort of distracted me :) >>=20 >> Maybe someone who actually knows how to use Valgrind could help me >> or try to find the leaks themselves? > Tried LLVM AddressSanitizer? It's supposed to be a low-impact > compile flag. http://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html > From the documentation I'm not sure it's useful for finding leaks. I suggested a possible way to analyze heap usage on Mac OS X only using some commands that bundled with the standard developer tools: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00552.html . Has anybody who are seeing memory issues on Mac OS X tried this? At least we can make sure whether there are some bogus root references or freed memory is not returned to the system. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 22:28:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjjQZ-0007RE-LO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:28:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45389) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjjQW-0007Oy-E6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:28:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjjQV-0002Aj-HK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:28:08 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:52522) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjjQV-0002Ad-7g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:28:07 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so5704533iac.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:28:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date :to:subject:x-mailer:reply-to:from:x-attribution; bh=MqUVHlX84xQxTwUXcJeZfAxeHOuuje8sHn8yw04IPuI=; b=LWFjbwJq8hBXg4XWxuEgA8+u94Lx61Zyii0UQJrDlaGTeYBzcHmJtxeKCTxMGpMXOn aUN6vkdboGNYG6lc+e/Q/fygQs+8OgIUwwJmDa1l0ZOysNMqmdtEZNN1jRhsFF9CmbGq fGRfCQpRNdUfbhguJ4f6+yuap0Vi/WaNA/Osw= Received: by 10.50.108.140 with SMTP id hk12mr4175821igb.18.1325993286365; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from labrador.google.com (c-71-202-188-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [71.202.188.217]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rc7sm7373611igb.0.2012.01.07.19.28.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:28:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:28:03 -0800 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Memory Leak was: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 8 messages X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 24.0.92.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) From: "T. V. Raman" x-attribution: tvr X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:28:09 -0000 I'm running Emacs 24 on three machines, and am seeing leaks on one of them -- Details below. Home: Ubuntu Jaunty x86_32 quad-core -- No Leak Laptop: Intel x86_64 dual core Ubuntu Lucid -- No Leak Work: amd_64 16-core HP workstation Ubuntu Lucid -- Leak! I know other Emacs hackers at work who are running the identical Lucid build on 64-bit machines -- but not on the 16-core HP workstation who are not seeing the leak. I've tried building with and without gnutls -- no difference. Symptoms of the leak: The office workstation has 12gb of RAM and 36GB swap. Before starting Emacs: `free' shows 2gb in use. Start Emacs 24 -- with just emacspeak loaded -- no immediate signs of a leak -- `free' shows abut 6gb in use -- which does seem a lot. M-x shell in that emacs and wait for a couple of minutes. Running `free' on a separate terminal shows that all 12GB of memory in use -- emacs RSS is at 10GB. If you dont kill the runnning emacs-24 at that point, it brings the workstation to its knees and the machine stops responding and needs to be rebooted. --Raman -- Best Regards, --raman From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 07 22:52:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjjo0-0001cF-Bu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:52:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49644) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhXD-00012R-UF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:26:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhXC-0005qA-2J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:26:55 -0500 Received: from userg508.nifty.com ([202.248.238.88]:38697) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjhX7-0005nh-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:26:53 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain (eatkyo565213.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [222.159.219.213])by userg508.nifty.com with ESMTP id q081QB0E023086; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 10:26:11 +0900 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nifty.com; s=mar2011msa; t=1325985978; bh=dDXqMbhwvmRX9HQHwA5/7XtMQpcm8py7Yg1VqdjAfT0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=rXUefB3vVpKv1dK4lBwEYudOka8zQUE4d8u98Pxt1IaN9merBgOZGdLZkAj/O8eBu AYDw5OzV75hE+npyh1jtLwuc3Sjs15It/WnrPGhMC2axdWv6brfgaPVTqAgvTp0a2S 5SB8BpuO0BfdKBRP5X13eIzjtkyl/j1qgI1ZzXak= X-Nifty-SrcIP: [222.159.219.213] From: Kentaro NAKAZAWA To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers References: <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> <20120107135017.GA15873@acm.acm> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:26:10 +0900 Message-ID: <87lipjf0i5.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 202.248.238.88 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:52:21 -0500 Cc: Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:26:57 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hello, Alan. > Could you be more specific, please - tell me which keywords weren't > fontified, and exactly what you did for this to happen. The screen shot was appended. (emacs -Q) action.cc.png: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gtkmm/3.0/gtkmm-3.0.1.tar.bz2 gtkmm-3.0.1/gtk/gtkmm/action.cc The method name is not fontified. 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1RjlRx-0005JW-KN; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:37:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:37:45 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Juri Linkov In-reply-to: <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (message from Juri Linkov on Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:27:34 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:37:49 -0000 Maybe just delete Info-edit. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 00:38:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjlSX-0002ES-7D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36269) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSS-00023g-ND for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSR-0007qy-AC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:16 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:51523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSR-0007qu-7Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:15 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSP-0005ZA-Qg; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:13 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:38:20 -0000 Why? What if someone wants to create a small Info file and doesn't want to bother with texinfo or doesn't have the conversion/make tools handy? It is really preferable to write in Texinfo. I don't see a reason why we should want to encourage people to write Info files directly. Have you encountered anyone who really wanted to do so? Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 00:44:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjlYe-000353-PX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:44:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41883) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlYc-00032N-7l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:44:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlYa-0000dP-Re for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:44:38 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:51566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSo-00086a-3u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:38 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjlSm-0005lh-3g; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:36 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:36 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:44:39 -0000 I have considered Info-edit obsolete ever since we had Texinfo. Info has existed since 1976 or so, in the original Emacs. At that time, Info files were written by hand, and everyone could edit system files on ITS. Thus, Info-edit was useful there. When I implemented info in GNU Emacs, I wrote Info-edit there too. Then I implemented Texinfo to format the Emacs manual. This made Info-edit useless when Texinfo is in use -- which ought to be always. Meanwhile, ordinary users can't edit the installed Info files anyway. So Info-edit is basically useless. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 00:50:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjleB-0004Nk-AP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjle8-0004MR-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjle7-0001xU-Tj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:20 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:51872) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjle7-0001xQ-Qe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:19 -0500 Received: from dann by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjle6-0000cn-S4; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:19 -0500 From: Dan Nicolaescu To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:50:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (T. V. Raman's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:10:42 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:50:21 -0000 "T. V. Raman" writes: > Hi, > This problem started after a git update from savannah yesterday. > > Environment: Ubuntu 10.0 > Linux Console (i.e. outside X) > TERM=linux (terminal type) > > I suddenly found the arrow keys invoking facemenu-set-default. > > Describe Function (attached output below) on > facemenu-set-default shows that it is indeed bound to \eOD, > which coincidentally is what the left arrow key generates on the > linux console. > > I verified that this is still true with emacs -q -- but with a > minimal emacspeak environment loaded; I dont believe the binding > is coming from Emacspeak as far as I can tell. > > > facemenu-set-default is an interactive Lisp function. > > It is bound to meta o d , META cap G d , > d , d . > > (facemenu-set-default) > > Select face `default' for subsequent insertion. > If the mark is active and there is no prefix argument, > apply face `default' to the region instead. > This command was defined by `facemenu-add-new-face'. What do you get if you press: C-q (i.e. C-q followed by left arrow key) Do you get the same sequence as running in a shell : infocmp linux | grep kcub1 ? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 02:03:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjmmd-00029X-7b for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39437) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmma-00029R-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmmZ-0001Cv-RX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:08 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:61878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmmX-0001C7-JB; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:05 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08733Vx030465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:03 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08732AF011950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:03 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08732Jp023045; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:03:02 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:03:02 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:02:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczNx7oFMrzYGdhtSGqaw8KUpV/mYwABSoAw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F093FA8.0002,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:03:10 -0000 > Why? What if someone wants to create a small Info file > and doesn't want to bother with texinfo or doesn't have the > conversion/make tools handy? > > It is really preferable to write in Texinfo. I wouldn't argue with that. I'm sure you are right. > I don't see a reason why we should want to encourage people > to write Info files directly. Mere existence of the command `Info-edit' is hardly encouragement. Have you noticed a problem with users being too encouraged to write Info files by hand over the last 30 years? And during that time they have even had a simple, advertised key binding for `Info-edit', which binding is being removed now anyway. > Have you encountered anyone who really wanted to do so? Nope. But if I had to edit an Info node (which has not been the case so far) and I did not have texinfo, makeinfo, etc. on my laptop (which is the case), I wouldn't hesitate to do it. And note that the Info manual has a section, `Expert Info' (with 5 subsections), that describes "how to write an Info file by hand" and how to "install it manually". That suggests at least as much encouragement to write Info files by hand as does the mere existence of command `Info-edit'. The manual does not at all say or suggest that writing Info files by hand is useless. What it says, in fact, is "_in most cases_, writing a Texinfo file is better, since you can use it to make a printed manual or produce other formats, such as HTML and DocBook, as well as for generating Info files". "In most cases" is a far cry from always. And surely if it were truly useless to write Info files by hand we would not devote 6 nodes of the Info manual to explaining in detail how to do it (?). Granted, `Info-edit' is not the same as all that is discussed in the manual under the topic of writing an Info file by hand. But your question was about writing an Info file by hand, and here is a far greater encouragement than `Info-edit'. AFAICT, we seem to be saying in the Info manual that there is a use case for hand editing, even if we say that in most cases Texinfo is more useful. Both the Info manual and the lack of installed `makeinfo' for at least some users on some systems (non-development laptops? phones? tablets?) argue that hand editing is not useless. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 02:03:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjmmx-0002SR-Bh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39625) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmmu-0002SK-C0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmmt-0001Iy-Gf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:28 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:61913) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmmr-0001Im-Cq; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:25 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0873ONW030689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:24 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0873N10023949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:23 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0873NXl010743; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:03:23 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:03:22 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org><871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org><87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:03:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczNx8e660DfAzoQQWqcSvUlu5quKQABAzCQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F093FBC.005D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:03:29 -0000 > I have considered Info-edit obsolete ever since we had Texinfo. If you don't tell the users that something is deprecated/obsolete, then such interior consideration doesn't mean much. It makes sense to let users know what to expect in terms of support etc. And that is pretty typical. > Info has existed since 1976 or so, in the original Emacs. At that > time, Info files were written by hand, and everyone could edit system > files on ITS. Thus, Info-edit was useful there. > > When I implemented info in GNU Emacs, I wrote Info-edit there too. > Then I implemented Texinfo to format the Emacs manual. This made > Info-edit useless when Texinfo is in use -- which ought to be always. Dunno why it "ought" to be. But I won't argue the point. (But see my other reply.) > Meanwhile, ordinary users can't edit the installed Info files anyway. Why not? What prevents them? > So Info-edit is basically useless. So you could have deprecated it, uh, let's see, about 30 years ago, and you've known that for that time. Apparently there has been no hurry. ;-) Might as well deprecate it now and desupport it in Emacs 24.2 (or 29.3), I guess. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 02:40:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjnN2-0005fJ-AK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:40:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50149) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjnMy-0005b9-UZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:40:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjnMy-0005WQ-2C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:40:44 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:44452) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjnMx-0005Vm-Gh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:40:44 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C260C9707B9 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB37B1A2FD1; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 In-Reply-To: <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 2dbefd79b3d3 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 Message-ID: <87r4za3aml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:40:45 -0000 Richard Riley writes: > It was quite clear in the context what was meant by "emacs component" : > a component which contributes to a working and complete emacs > installation. In context, I don't disagree with that definition. I merely deny that GnuTLS is needed for a complete Emacs distribution in that sense from the point of view of the GNU Emacs project. I believe that Juanma and Eli would agree with me that those two points are the main ones, though we respectfully disagree with each other on many other grounds. > I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit > of a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end > user and, more importantly, the new adopter. But this is not petty, it's fundamental! Proponents who argue that distribution of GnuTLS binaries is needed for Windows users are ignoring a very important distinction: users (new adopters) of the GNU System (and at lower priority, free OSes in general) vs. users of non-free OSes and OSes whose attractiveness is based on non-free software. Supporting the former is the policy of GNU Emacs; supporting the latter is not (though of course individual developers are free to contribute to such support if they like). I'm not sure that the above even applies to Ted, though. AIUI, you misread Ted's main argument, which is that an automatic notification service for security updates (not necessarily involving distribution of GnuTLS binaries for Windows users, though it *could* eventually do so) would be beneficial for (almost) all Emacs users and therefore the project. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 03:21:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjo0k-0000yW-JR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54946) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjo0h-0000rf-HF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjo0g-0002WJ-FB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:53309) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjo0g-0002WD-CU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:46 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjo0U-0004yo-Rm; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:35 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:21:34 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org><871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org><87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: juri@jurta.org, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:21:48 -0000 > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , , > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:03:15 -0800 > > > Meanwhile, ordinary users can't edit the installed Info files anyway. > > Why not? What prevents them? Access rights. On a typical Unix or GNU system, Info manuals are installed by the user root (= Administrator for Windows), and are not writable by others. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 03:34:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjoDO-00039a-Rc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52295) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDI-0002yg-SN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDH-0004ep-K6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:53556) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDH-0004ek-Gn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:47 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoDG-0005qX-QK; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:46 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:46 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87r4za3aml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 References: <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87r4za3aml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:34:49 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 > > Richard Riley writes: > > > It was quite clear in the context what was meant by "emacs component" : > > a component which contributes to a working and complete emacs > > installation. > > In context, I don't disagree with that definition. I merely deny that > GnuTLS is needed for a complete Emacs distribution in that sense from > the point of view of the GNU Emacs project. I believe that Juanma and > Eli would agree with me that those two points are the main ones, > though we respectfully disagree with each other on many other grounds. I do agree, mainly because the concept of a "working and complete emacs installation" defined above will lead us to absurdity, whereby we will need to provide many programs and packages Emacs uses in some of its features, which on Windows are not available out of the box. GnuTLS is not different from Grep or Find or Ispell/Aspell or Awk, to name just a few (and that's even before you consider the tools needed to build programs from Emacs). Building these add-ons and providing installers for them must be a job of a separate group of volunteers, not of the Emacs project. The job of the Emacs project is to provide infrastructure for integration with those add-ons, such as dynamic-library-alist populated with the names of the supported DLLs and the machinery to load the DLLs on demand. > > I dont want to bicker and be petty but felt Ted was getting a bit > > of a hard time for merely wanting to make things better for the end > > user and, more importantly, the new adopter. > > But this is not petty, it's fundamental! Proponents who argue that > distribution of GnuTLS binaries is needed for Windows users are > ignoring a very important distinction: users (new adopters) of the GNU > System (and at lower priority, free OSes in general) vs. users of > non-free OSes and OSes whose attractiveness is based on non-free > software. Supporting the former is the policy of GNU Emacs; > supporting the latter is not (though of course individual developers > are free to contribute to such support if they like). That is true, but we don't even distribute GnuTLS for GNU systems, so talking about doing that for Windows is _really_ far-fetched. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 03:37:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjoG0-0003Tr-4c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:37:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoFy-0003Ti-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:37:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoFx-0004z2-1Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:37:34 -0500 Received: from prometheus.naquadah.org ([212.85.154.174]:49991 helo=mx1.naquadah.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoFw-0004yo-Oz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:37:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.naquadah.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78A45C0F6; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:37:31 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at prometheus.naquadah.org Received: from mx1.naquadah.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prometheus.naquadah.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id veay6xeJP4v4; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:37:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from DimIMac.local (89-158-241-83.rev.dartybox.com [89.158.241.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.naquadah.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1F195C0F4; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:37:29 +0100 (CET) Received: by DimIMac.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0E401336D0BC; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:37:27 +0100 (CET) From: Dimitri Fontaine To: chad Subject: Re: Mac OS-compatible ports References: <87ipl7zaea.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87sjkbib14.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d3baui4b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxacqlg4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwg3pfy4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739c2dscy.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ehvkdgfr.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> User-Mail-Address: dim@tapoueh.org Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:37:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: (chad's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 17:28:55 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 212.85.154.174 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:37:35 -0000 chad writes: > There are some known issues that make subprocesses slow (usually hits Oh, I'm using subprocesses a lot. That's a list-processes edited paste from my current Emacs session (still fast enough, emacs-uptime is just about less than 24h). *nnimap* open -- (network connection to *nnimap*<1> open -- (network connection to *nnimap*<2> open -- (network connection to bitlbee run /dev/ttys001 /bin/bash -c /sw/sbin/bitlbee ... ispell run -- ispell -a -m -d english -B localhost open -- (network connection to nntpd open -- (network connection to offlineimap run /dev/ttys000 /bin/bash -c offlineimap -u Machine.MachineUI pgsql.. open -- (network connection to shell run /dev/ttys002 /bin/bash --noediting -i tapoueh.org open -- (network connection to terminal run /dev/ttys003 /bin/sh -c stty -nl ... /bin/bash Note that I often run commands that launch a transient subprocess (M-x compile, M-x grep, M-x ack, M-x el-get-self-update, etc), and that I have some local facilities using shell-command-to-string or the like too. Here's also the last line of M-x ibuffer: 525 buffers 15732610 480 files, 10 processes I'm using desktop-save-mode so that I don't have to reopen every single file at startup, too. > flyspell, although it's still usually fast enough in my experience), and > there have been several discussions about slowness in CC-mode due to unusual > cases lately. Thing is it's usually plenty fast enough. My feeling is that it gets slower and slower with uptime growing, so that I sometime need to restart Emacs just to get back normal usable behavior. Regards, -- dim From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 05:12:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjpjW-0005Dq-KV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:12:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38005) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjpjT-0005DQ-Ng for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:12:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjpjS-0007Vb-4A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:12:07 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:46034 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjpjR-0007VL-Qc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 05:12:06 -0500 Received: (qmail 39165 invoked by uid 3782); 8 Jan 2012 10:12:01 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD955604F.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.96.79]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:11:57 +0100 Received: (qmail 3705 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jan 2012 10:05:27 -0000 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 10:05:27 +0000 To: Kentaro NAKAZAWA Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120108100527.GA3433@acm.acm> References: <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> <20120107135017.GA15873@acm.acm> <87lipjf0i5.fsf@nifty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lipjf0i5.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:12:09 -0000 Hi, Kentaro. On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 10:26:10AM +0900, Kentaro NAKAZAWA wrote: > Hello, Alan. > > Could you be more specific, please - tell me which keywords weren't > > fontified, and exactly what you did for this to happen. > The screen shot was appended. (emacs -Q) > action.cc.png: > http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gtkmm/3.0/gtkmm-3.0.1.tar.bz2 > gtkmm-3.0.1/gtk/gtkmm/action.cc > The method name is not fontified. > But I execute M-oM-o in function, fontified correctly. OK. I think that's a separate bug. I'll commit the patch I sent you to the Emacs trunk. I'll look at the new bug afterwards. > -- > Kentaro Nakazawa -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany) From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 08:54:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjtD5-0003R8-8J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:54:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtD2-0003Qn-Np for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:54:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtD1-0005Cg-Jw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:54:52 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:50793) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtD1-0005BS-G3; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:54:51 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q08Dsm4x009811; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 08:54:48 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2FB0758F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 08:54:47 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? Message-ID: References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:54:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:32:29 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717875> : uri <1042983> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:54:53 -0000 >>> For the record, I use a --without-gnutls Emacs while also not >>> using Gnus, and am part of the users seeing the "leaks". >> AFAIK you're not seeing leaks, but only excessive memory use (and >> failure to return memory to the system early enough for your taste), > Maybe :). How do we define "early enough"? Hours or days? Never. It's still not necessarily a leak. A leak is when memory is lost and can never be reused again (short of restarting Emacs). Whereas IIUC your case is a situation where the memory is not lost: it will never be returned to the OS but it will be reused by Emacs itself if/when the occasion shows up. A leak manifests itself by a memory footprint that keeps on growing indefinitely even when the usage pattern does not justify any such increase. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 09:09:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjtRP-0006tb-G5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:09:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46271) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtRN-0006tV-A1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:09:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtRM-0007Ew-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:09:41 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:39681) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtRM-0007Es-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:09:40 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q08E9b9i010286; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:09:38 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id B208B58F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:09:36 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys Message-ID: References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:09:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (T. V. Raman's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:10:42 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717878> : uri <1042990> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:09:42 -0000 > I verified that this is still true with emacs -q -- but with a > minimal emacspeak environment loaded; I dont believe the binding > is coming from Emacspeak as far as I can tell. Can you check that -Q also shows this behavior? I can't think of how/where we'd setup such a binding. > It is bound to meta o d , META cap G d , > d , d . This text looks odd: what are those "meta" and "META" and "cap" keys? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 09:14:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjtVb-0007Wn-37 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:14:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46711) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtVY-0007WR-TC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:14:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtVY-0007mp-5F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:14:00 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:47190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjtVW-0007mC-6m; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:13:58 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q08EDsNR030481; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:13:55 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D7B4558F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:13:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Message-ID: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org> <62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:13:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:27:34 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717879> : uri <1042993> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:14:01 -0000 >> I thought that e would be a useful command >> back when I supposed info files would be written by hand. >> But we don't do that, so e is not useful and maybe only causes trouble. > There is more trouble when this obsolete feature is announced > in the customization group `info' via its customizable variable > `Info-enable-edit'. It would be better to hide it from the > Customization interface by changing `defcustom' to `defvar': We can mark Info-edit (and related vars) obsolete, indeed. Tho, there's really no hurry to do it, so it can wait 24.2. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 09:23:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjtey-0001Oq-Sq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:23:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50405) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjtew-0001Ok-Sx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:23:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjtew-0000K4-2o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:23:42 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:44994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjtew-0000K0-01 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:23:42 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q08ENcf0010653; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:23:38 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 738BF58F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:23:37 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com Subject: Re: Memory Leak was: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 8 messages Message-ID: References: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:23:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (T. V. Raman's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:28:03 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717881> : uri <1042997> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:23:43 -0000 > Before starting Emacs: `free' shows 2gb in use. FWIW, "free" is not a very good tool to track the memory use of a specific process. Better check the VSZ and RSS of the process itself (and note that RSS can stay stable even in the presence of a leak, so VSZ is important). > Start Emacs 24 -- with just emacspeak loaded -- no immediate > signs of a leak -- `free' shows abut 6gb in use -- which does > seem a lot. What is Emacs's RSS and/or VSZ at startup? > M-x shell in that emacs > and wait for a couple of minutes. > Running `free' on a separate terminal shows that all 12GB of > memory in use -- emacs RSS is at 10GB. > If you dont kill the runnning emacs-24 at that point, it brings > the workstation to its knees and the machine stops responding and > needs to be rebooted. So you're saying that "emacs -Q" plus emacspeak plus "M-x shell" results on this machine in a process hat keeps growing even if you leave it alone? Could you run it under GDB (from the `emacs/src' directory) and interrupt the process (with C-z) every once in a while to try and see what it's doing? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 10:33:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RjukZ-0004Ca-R2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34250) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjukW-00049i-B8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjukS-0001Cj-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38492) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjukS-0001CW-AK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RjukR-00024x-BO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:33:27 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:33:27 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:33:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:08 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 49 Message-ID: <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:WnBCCPMjnY0Bee85Uk/Yql/is/A= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:33:33 -0000 On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 16:40:34 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: SJT> I'm not sure that the above even applies to Ted, though. AIUI, you SJT> misread Ted's main argument, which is that an automatic notification SJT> service for security updates (not necessarily involving distribution SJT> of GnuTLS binaries for Windows users, though it *could* eventually do SJT> so) would be beneficial for (almost) all Emacs users and therefore the SJT> project. What I've now propsed, after Chong clarified the maintainers' position, is the same service, enabled by default but with no packages (so an interested user only has to customize one variable and it does nothing otherwise). I think that's the middle ground we've been looking for. I only need to know, from Stefan or Chong, if that proposal is OK and if it should go into the current trunk or if it should wait until 24.1 is out. On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:34:46 -0500 Eli Zaretskii wrote: EZ> Building these add-ons and providing installers for them must be a job EZ> of a separate group of volunteers, not of the Emacs project. The job EZ> of the Emacs project is to provide infrastructure for integration with EZ> those add-ons, such as dynamic-library-alist populated with the names EZ> of the supported DLLs and the machinery to load the DLLs on demand. >> But this is not petty, it's fundamental! Proponents who argue that >> distribution of GnuTLS binaries is needed for Windows users are >> ignoring a very important distinction: users (new adopters) of the GNU >> System (and at lower priority, free OSes in general) vs. users of >> non-free OSes and OSes whose attractiveness is based on non-free >> software. Supporting the former is the policy of GNU Emacs; >> supporting the latter is not (though of course individual developers >> are free to contribute to such support if they like). EZ> That is true, but we don't even distribute GnuTLS for GNU systems, so EZ> talking about doing that for Windows is _really_ far-fetched. Let's agree the GNU Emacs project will not be distributing GnuTLS (or any other third-party library) binaries for any platform. I think I was clear on that from the beginning but maybe I did not state it well. My proposals for distributing binaries were either a GNU ELPA package; a standalone GnuTLS installer; or an Emacs installer (anything but downloading a zip file!). Through our discussion I've seen that an Emacs installer/patcher as Joakim suggested is the best choice, with a GNU ELPA package set up as an opt-in update notifier if my notification proposal above is approved. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 14:57:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rjys6-0002rO-D9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:57:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58985) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjys4-0002qc-Cd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:57:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjys3-0005K4-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:57:36 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:53546) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjys3-0005K0-1f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:57:35 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so6623302iac.0 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:57:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=OwjCogs+P/is4oElv9vkaX4j5CMbOMqIoWSVIXAjV2w=; b=D4o78UwtL3ror09ZPpt2KD2uptQeZTE28YTzIFQFrW1w+sJcI3ify3rEL40HGiFQj6 yfRT9ii3aWvbjANlw1VsdcPE9Kn+tVn/gjRLWveLy7ExzX1lWJy89iMjvtMxt3yzvdTe ADWRFjgzYkrlXMR4t1CyqrZ1stTyumTnAT24I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.180.167 with SMTP id dp7mr6787489igc.26.1326052654036; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.138 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:57:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:57:34 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys From: "T.V. Raman" To: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:57:37 -0000 Culprit in facemenu.el: (define-key global-map "\M-o" 'facemenu-keymap) -- Best Regards, --raman -- Best Regards, --raman On 1/8/12, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> I verified that this is still true with emacs -q -- but with a >> minimal emacspeak environment loaded; I dont believe the binding >> is coming from Emacspeak as far as I can tell. > > Can you check that -Q also shows this behavior? > I can't think of how/where we'd setup such a binding. > >> It is bound to meta o d , META cap G d , >> d , d . > > This text looks odd: what are those "meta" and "META" and "cap" keys? > > > Stefan > From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 17:34:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk1Jz-0002Dp-5l for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35837) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Jw-0002D5-3Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Ju-0000xf-ST for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:31 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35374) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Ju-0000xb-Pk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:30 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Js-0004jZ-TC; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:28 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org><871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org><87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:34:33 -0000 > I have considered Info-edit obsolete ever since we had Texinfo. If you don't tell the users that something is deprecated/obsolete, then such interior consideration doesn't mean much. We are not bureaucrats, we are developing software to be useful for users and to give them freedom. We follow certain practical practices because they are generally helpful, but they are not imposed by gods. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 17:46:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk1Vn-0003dB-4J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:46:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Vj-0003ck-OK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:46:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Vi-0003Bn-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:46:43 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:59860) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Vi-0003BY-Ev for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:46:42 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1Va-0002HQ-LH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:46:34 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0A1CC6.5020208@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:46:30 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs development discussions Subject: Can we depend on FD_CLOEXEC always being supported? X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig139B62E82F7F4DE61D2A5D4E" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:46:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig139B62E82F7F4DE61D2A5D4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aside from DOS_NT, do we support any platforms without FD_CLOEXEC? Today, it's only used conditionally in the Emacs code. I don't see why: FD_CLOEXEC has been standard for a very long time (4.3BSD and SVr4). Why wouldn't we want to use it unconditionally? --------------enig139B62E82F7F4DE61D2A5D4E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8KHMkACgkQ17c2LVA10VsKSQCfXmdvjjW/FxHJI1XEY9Ni4s/y yIYAmweLcaQQvsGuUmTQ1rUF25nX+F3s =pIgZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig139B62E82F7F4DE61D2A5D4E-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 18:00:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk1jB-0004eB-1z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:00:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56410) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1j8-0004e5-E2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:00:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1j7-0004tR-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:00:34 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:58073) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1j5-0004t3-GU; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:00:31 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08N0Qgt026429 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:00:27 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08N0PgS013003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:00:26 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08N0PvW006016; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:00:25 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:00:25 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org><871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org><87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:00:16 -0800 Message-ID: <510B6963E364499BBAF14665874F1C83@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczOVbHz6OPvrUrYSsCqKFusL5ujGAAANkeg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4F0A200B.0053,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:00:35 -0000 > > I have considered Info-edit obsolete ever since we had Texinfo. > > If you don't tell the users that something is > deprecated/obsolete, then such interior consideration > doesn't mean much. > > We are not bureaucrats, we are developing software to be useful for > users and to give them freedom. We follow certain practical practices > because they are generally helpful, but they are not imposed by gods. I doubt anyone disagrees with that. Just how is it relevant here? The idea is to help Emacs users, including those writing Lisp code, by giving them a heads-up wrt Emacs Dev support/intentions. That, I presume, is the idea behind functions such as `make-obsolete(-variable)': to inform users about things that are considered obsolete. Your thinking for 30 years that something is obsolete, and keeping the thought to yourself, does not help users know that Emacs Development considers it so. Have you considered for the same 30 years, since introducing Texinfo, that the section of the `Info' manual that tells users how to write Info nodes by hand is also obsolete? If so, would it be bureaucratic to update that manual to reflect your judgment, assuming the Emacs maintainers felt the same? One need not be a bureaucrat or believe in gods to think that such communication can be helpful to users. Should we stop publishing NEWS because we are not bureaucrats? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 18:26:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk28N-0001s2-Qh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:26:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45345) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk28L-0001rw-R6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:26:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk28K-0007qf-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:26:37 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:56646) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk28K-0007pa-Kl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:26:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A00939E800D; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7548U7h3scs; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E854739E800A; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:26:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F0A2631.9070808@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:26:41 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: Can we depend on FD_CLOEXEC always being supported? References: <4F0A1CC6.5020208@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <4F0A1CC6.5020208@dancol.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:26:38 -0000 On 01/08/12 14:46, Daniel Colascione wrote: > Aside from DOS_NT, do we support any platforms without FD_CLOEXEC? No. > Why wouldn't we want to use it unconditionally? Outside of the DOS/NT environment, there's no reason these days. Existing uses of "#ifdef FD_CLOEXEC" and the like are revenants from platforms that are long ago obsolete and no longer used. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 18:44:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk2Pv-0004Ob-Gp for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50568) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk2Ps-0004OV-ID for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk2Pr-0001pg-E1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:44 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36310) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk2Pr-0001pc-8q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:43 -0500 Received: from dann by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk2Pq-0007vz-Ot; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:42 -0500 From: Dan Nicolaescu To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: Can we depend on FD_CLOEXEC always being supported? References: <4F0A1CC6.5020208@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:44:42 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F0A1CC6.5020208@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:46:30 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:44:45 -0000 Daniel Colascione writes: > Aside from DOS_NT, do we support any platforms without FD_CLOEXEC? > Today, it's only used conditionally in the Emacs code. I don't see > why: FD_CLOEXEC has been standard for a very long time (4.3BSD and > SVr4). Why wouldn't we want to use it unconditionally? emacs.c has a FD_CLOEXEC use protected only by ! DOS_NT since 2008-12-08. We have no received any complaints about this, so the rest of the FD_CLOEXEC conditionals can go. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 20:01:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk3bp-0001z0-1H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41850) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3bm-0001xa-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3bl-0002nO-S6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:06 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:35922) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3bl-0002nE-Nr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:05 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q091131Z024003; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:01:04 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5A75F58F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:01:03 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "T.V. Raman" Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys Message-ID: References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:03 -0500 In-Reply-To: (T. V. Raman's message of "Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:57:34 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717995> : uri <1043261> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:01:07 -0000 > Culprit in facemenu.el: (define-key global-map "\M-o" 'facemenu-keymap) Oh, right. So the real problem is the use of ESC O D escape sequences. AFAIK these sequences aren't used any more in current terminal emulators. I wonder how you ended up with such a situation. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 20:04:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk3fX-0002OB-LE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57274) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3fV-0002O5-Lz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3fU-0003da-D6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:57 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:56183) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk3fU-0003dG-95 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:56 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0914sTO003969; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:04:54 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id DE13358F7E; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:04:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Message-ID: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:33:08 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <717996> : uri <1043263> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:04:58 -0000 > What I've now propsed, after Chong clarified the maintainers' position, > is the same service, enabled by default but with no packages (so an > interested user only has to customize one variable and it does nothing > otherwise). I think that's the middle ground we've been looking for. > I only need to know, from Stefan or Chong, if that proposal is OK and if > it should go into the current trunk or if it should wait until 24.1 is out. I don't see a problem with it, but it's too late for 24.1. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 08 22:30:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk5wV-0006Vo-18 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53777) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk5wR-0006Te-DA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk5wP-0007u0-H4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:35 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38481) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk5wP-0007tq-FS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:33 -0500 Received: from dann by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk5wP-00034d-2M; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:33 -0500 From: Dan Nicolaescu To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20234.20416.484712.470008@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:30:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20234.20416.484712.470008@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (T. V. Raman's message of "Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:24:00 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:30:36 -0000 "T. V. Raman" writes: [Your original CC to emacs-devel had an incorrect address, so I got a bounce, this is a resend] > Ithought Ihad said in my original note that the problem only > showed up if TERM=linux -- which the default on the Linux > console. But that only happens on your machine when you use loadkeys emacs2 right? On my Fedora machine "loadkeys emacs2" does not change the what the arrow keys emit. > I've already fixed it for myself locally by defining > \M-OA and friends in my function-key-map --- but Istill think > facemenu.el should be fixed for the general user. The problem is that on your machine what the arrow keys emit does not correspond to the "linux" terminfo entry (terminfo expect \e[[A whereas the terminal emits \eOA). So emacs is confused. Once that confusion is resolved, facemenu.el would just work. > > >>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Nicolaescu writes: > Dan> "T.V. Raman" writes: > >> Correct: Arrows emit \eO[A-D] using keymap emacs2.kmap.gz > Dan> > Dan> Then you need to set TERM to something else, not to > Dan> linux. I think using "xterm" would get rid of this > Dan> particular error. > Dan> > Dan> BTW, please keep emacs-devel in the CC. > Dan> > >> -- > >> Best Regards, --raman > >> > >> -- > >> Best Regards, --raman > >> > >> > >> On 1/8/12, Dan Nicolaescu wrote: > >>> "T.V. Raman" writes: > >>> > >>>> On linnnux console term=linux\eOA > >>> > >>> Are you saying that on your linux console \eOA is emitted > >>> for an arrow key? > >>> > >>> That's not what I get on Fedora... And that's not what > >>> the terminfo database specifies. This is the cause of the > >>> problem: the terminal emits one sequence and the terminfo > >>> database expects another one. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Best Regards, --raman > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Best Regards, --raman > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 1/7/12, Dan Nicolaescu wrote: > >>>>> "T. V. Raman" writes: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi, This problem started after a git update from > >>>>>> savannah yesterday. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Environment: Ubuntu 10.0 Linux Console (i.e. outside > >>>>>> X) TERM=linux (terminal type) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I suddenly found the arrow keys invoking > >>>>>> facemenu-set-default. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Describe Function (attached output below) on > >>>>>> facemenu-set-default shows that it is indeed bound to > >>>>>> \eOD, which coincidentally is what the left arrow key > >>>>>> generates on the linux console. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I verified that this is still true with emacs -q -- > >>>>>> but with a minimal emacspeak environment loaded; I > >>>>>> dont believe the binding is coming from Emacspeak as > >>>>>> far as I can tell. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> facemenu-set-default is an interactive Lisp function. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It is bound to meta o d , META cap G d , >>>>>> down-mouse-2> d , > >>>>>> d . > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (facemenu-set-default) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Select face `default' for subsequent insertion. If the > >>>>>> mark is active and there is no prefix argument, apply > >>>>>> face `default' to the region instead. This command was > >>>>>> defined by `facemenu-add-new-face'. > >>>>> > >>>>> What do you get if you press: C-q (i.e. C-q > >>>>> followed by left arrow key) > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you get the same sequence as running in a shell : > >>>>> > >>>>> infocmp linux | grep kcub1 > >>>>> > >>>>> ? > >>>>> > >>> > > -- > Best Regards, > --raman From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 01:02:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk8JO-0000Zz-OF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:02:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8JL-0000Zs-If for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:02:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8JK-0001I2-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:02:23 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:45789) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8JK-0001Hw-2D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:02:22 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0962HlQ032445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 06:02:17 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0962GDs013460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 06:02:16 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0962FjQ031865 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:02:16 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.37.7) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:02:15 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: References: <87obugwprb.fsf@lifelogs.com> <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: "Snippet" database Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 22:02:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <834nw8o8zx.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AczMtIJZt6lbNqdUR7OBRpumvOnRIwB3x/bg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F0A82EB.003E,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 06:02:25 -0000 > > So maybe a `yank-select' command to select from the kill ring would > > be useful to you > > Possible today via the menu bar (Edit->Paste from Kill Menu). Using completion against the `kill-ring' is a whole lot handier than picking a kill from a menu. FWIW - For "snippet" stuff it is handy to have a selection ring that is separate from the kill ring. The kill ring is volatile, and many of its entries are typically not something you necessarily want to yank - there can be a lot of noise. A less volatile selection is the secondary selection. Library `second-sel.el' gives you a ring for this, `secondary-selection-ring', which you can use the same way as the `kill-ring'. Its entries can be more appropriate for snippets, since a typical use of killing text does not have snippets in mind. In any case, it's also good to be able to copy or move a selection from one ring to the other - e.g. to save a kill as a snippet. Library `browse-kill-ring+.el' lets you browse either selection ring (kills or secondary selections), yank entries from it, and copy or move selections from one ring to the other. You can create other selection rings to browse, and you can of course persist a ring using savehist or whatever (e.g., a "database of snippets"). With these libraries (by default), if `M-y' follows a yank command, it acts normally. If it follows a yank-secondary command it acts similarly but using the `secondary-selection-ring' instead of the `kill-ring'. Otherwise (`M-y' at top level), it browses the current ring or, if in a buffer browsing a ring, it browses the other ring. In Icicles (by default), `M-y' acts similarly. But instead of browsing selections, a top-level `M-y' yanks a selection using completion, from the `kill-ring' or (with prefix arg) from the `secondary-selection-ring'. During this completion you can hit a key to: * Copy a selection to the other ring * Delete a selection from the current ring * Sort the selections in various ways for easier access (no dups) http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SecondarySelection#secondary-sel.el http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BrowseKillRing From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 01:08:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk8Ot-0001X0-Ru for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:08:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35004) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8Op-0001Vt-HC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:08:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8Om-0002DJ-Le for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:08:03 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:40360) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8Om-0002D8-Gp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:08:00 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.183] (port=58754 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8Oi-00016D-K9; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:08:00 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:07:47 +0800 Message-ID: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 06:08:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hiroshi Oota has found a security flaw in EDE (part of CEDET), a development tool included in Emacs. EDE can store various information about a project, such as how to build the project, in a file named Project.ede in the project directory tree. When the minor mode `global-ede-mode' is enabled, visiting a file causes Emacs to look for Project.ede in the file's directory or one of its parent directories. If Project.ede is present, Emacs automatically reads and evaluates the first Lisp expression in it. This design exposes EDE users to the danger of loading malicious code from one file (Project.ede), simply by visiting another file in the same directory tree. A patch to fix this problem, for the Emacs 23.3 release, is attached. It prevents EDE from loading Project.ede files, except in directories explicitly designated as "safe" by the user via the new list variable `ede-project-directories'. The value of this variable is initially the empty list; Emacs offers to add to it when the user invokes the `M-x ede' or `M-x ede-new' command. EDE project types that do not use Project.ede (e.g. those that scan makefiles for build information) are unaffected, since they do not involve loading Lisp code. Due to this problem, we will make a 23.4 release from the emacs-23 branch. I have committed the above fix to the branch, and will shortly commit another more complicated fix from Eric Ludlam which tries to prevent CEDET classes from loading unsafe forms at all. In a few days, I will make the 23.3.90 pretest; during this brief window, if anyone thinks there is another bug fix that ought to go into 23.4, please promptly raise the issue on emacs-devel---but we will be very conservative about allowing commits, in order to release 23.4 ASAP. If no serious problems are found with the 23.3.90 pretest, the 23.4 release will probably follow right after. I will also make a new Emacs 24 pretest (24.0.93) soon, incorporating the same fixes. Until then, Emacs pretesters should be aware of this security flaw if they use EDE. The upstream CEDET project will also be making a new security release. Thanks to Hiroshi Oota for pointing out the flaw, and to Eric Ludlam and David Engster for working on the fix. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: inline; filename=ede-project-fix.patch diff -r -c emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede/auto.el emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede/auto.el *** emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede/auto.el 2011-01-09 01:45:14.000000000 +0800 --- emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede/auto.el 2012-01-09 13:20:12.410502713 +0800 *************** *** 58,63 **** --- 58,70 ---- :initform t :documentation "Non-nil if this is an option when a user creates a project.") + (safe-p :initarg :safe-p + :initform t + :documentation + "Non-nil if the project load files are \"safe\". + An unsafe project is one that loads project variables via Emacs + Lisp code. A safe project is one that loads project variables by + scanning files without loading Lisp code from them.") ) "Class representing minimal knowledge set to run preliminary EDE functions. When more advanced functionality is needed from a project type, that projects *************** *** 69,81 **** :name "Make" :file 'ede/proj :proj-file "Project.ede" :load-type 'ede-proj-load ! :class-sym 'ede-proj-project) (ede-project-autoload "edeproject-automake" :name "Automake" :file 'ede/proj :proj-file "Project.ede" :initializers '(:makefile-type Makefile.am) :load-type 'ede-proj-load ! :class-sym 'ede-proj-project) (ede-project-autoload "automake" :name "automake" :file 'ede/project-am :proj-file "Makefile.am" --- 76,90 ---- :name "Make" :file 'ede/proj :proj-file "Project.ede" :load-type 'ede-proj-load ! :class-sym 'ede-proj-project ! :safe-p nil) (ede-project-autoload "edeproject-automake" :name "Automake" :file 'ede/proj :proj-file "Project.ede" :initializers '(:makefile-type Makefile.am) :load-type 'ede-proj-load ! :class-sym 'ede-proj-project ! :safe-p nil) (ede-project-autoload "automake" :name "automake" :file 'ede/project-am :proj-file "Makefile.am" *************** *** 84,89 **** --- 93,100 ---- :new-p nil)) "List of vectors defining how to determine what type of projects exist.") + (put 'ede-project-class-files 'risky-local-variable t) + ;;; EDE project-autoload methods ;; (defmethod ede-project-root ((this ede-project-autoload)) *************** *** 122,127 **** --- 133,151 ---- (when (and f (file-exists-p f)) f))) + (defmethod ede-auto-load-project ((this ede-project-autoload) dir) + "Load in the project associated with THIS project autoload description. + THIS project description should be valid for DIR, where the project will + be loaded." + ;; Last line of defense: don't load unsafe projects. + (when (not (or (oref this :safe-p) + (ede-directory-safe-p dir))) + (error "Attempt to load an unsafe project (bug elsewhere in EDE)")) + ;; Things are good - so load the project. + (let ((o (funcall (oref this load-type) dir))) + (when (not o) + (error "Project type error: :load-type failed to create a project")) + (ede-add-project-to-global-list o))) (provide 'ede/auto) diff -r -c emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede/simple.el emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede/simple.el *** emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede/simple.el 2011-01-09 01:45:14.000000000 +0800 --- emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede/simple.el 2012-01-09 13:17:20.010502312 +0800 *************** *** 50,56 **** :name "Simple" :file 'ede/simple :proj-file 'ede-simple-projectfile-for-dir :load-type 'ede-simple-load ! :class-sym 'ede-simple-project) t) (defcustom ede-simple-save-directory "~/.ede" --- 50,57 ---- :name "Simple" :file 'ede/simple :proj-file 'ede-simple-projectfile-for-dir :load-type 'ede-simple-load ! :class-sym 'ede-simple-project ! :safe-p nil) t) (defcustom ede-simple-save-directory "~/.ede" diff -r -c emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede.el emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede.el *** emacs-23.3-old/lisp/cedet/ede.el 2011-01-09 01:45:14.000000000 +0800 --- emacs-23.3/lisp/cedet/ede.el 2012-01-09 13:24:44.854503349 +0800 *************** *** 94,99 **** --- 94,135 ---- :group 'ede :type 'sexp) ; make this be a list of options some day + (defcustom ede-project-directories nil + "Directories in which EDE may search for project files. + If the value is t, EDE may search in any directory. + + If the value is a function, EDE calls that function with one + argument, the directory name; the function should return t iff + EDE should look for project files in the directory. + + Otherwise, the value should be a list of fully-expanded directory + names. EDE searches for project files only in those directories. + If you invoke the commands \\[ede] or \\[ede-new] on a directory + that is not listed, Emacs will offer to add it to the list. + + Any other value disables searching for EDE project files." + :group 'ede + :type '(choice (const :tag "Any directory" t) + (repeat :tag "List of directories" + (directory)) + (function :tag "Predicate")) + :version "23.4" + :risky t) + + (defun ede-directory-safe-p (dir) + "Return non-nil if DIR is a safe directory to load projects from. + Projects that do not load a project definition as Emacs Lisp code + are safe, and can be loaded automatically. Other project types, + such as those created with Project.ede files, are safe only if + specified by `ede-project-directories'." + (setq dir (directory-file-name (expand-file-name dir))) + ;; Load only if allowed by `ede-project-directories'. + (or (eq ede-project-directories t) + (and (functionp ede-project-directories) + (funcall ede-project-directories dir)) + (and (listp ede-project-directories) + (member dir ede-project-directories)))) + ;;; Management variables *************** *** 419,442 **** Sets buffer local variables for EDE." (let* ((ROOT nil) (proj (ede-directory-get-open-project default-directory ! 'ROOT))) (when (or proj ROOT ! (ede-directory-project-p default-directory t)) ! (when (not proj) ! ;; @todo - this could be wasteful. ! (setq proj (ede-load-project-file default-directory 'ROOT))) ! (setq ede-object (ede-buffer-object (current-buffer) 'ede-object-project)) ! (setq ede-object-root-project ! (or ROOT (ede-project-root ede-object-project))) ! (if (and (not ede-object) ede-object-project) ! (ede-auto-add-to-target)) ! (ede-apply-target-options)))) (defun ede-reset-all-buffers (onoff) "Reset all the buffers due to change in EDE. --- 455,496 ---- Sets buffer local variables for EDE." (let* ((ROOT nil) (proj (ede-directory-get-open-project default-directory ! 'ROOT)) ! (projauto nil)) ! (when (or proj ROOT ! ;; If there is no open project, look up the project ! ;; autoloader to see if we should initialize. ! (setq projauto (ede-directory-project-p default-directory t))) ! ! (when (and (not proj) projauto) ! ! ;; No project was loaded, but we have a project description ! ;; object. This means that we can check if it is a safe ! ;; project to load before requesting it to be loaded. ! ! (when (or (oref projauto safe-p) ! ;; The project style is not safe, so check if it is ! ;; in `ede-project-directories'. ! (let ((top (ede-toplevel-project default-directory))) ! (ede-directory-safe-p top))) ! ;; The project is safe, so load it in. ! (setq proj (ede-load-project-file default-directory 'ROOT)))) ! ;; Only initialize EDE state in this buffer if we found a project. ! (when proj ! ! (setq ede-object (ede-buffer-object (current-buffer) 'ede-object-project)) ! (setq ede-object-root-project ! (or ROOT (ede-project-root ede-object-project))) ! (if (and (not ede-object) ede-object-project) ! (ede-auto-add-to-target)) ! (ede-apply-target-options))))) (defun ede-reset-all-buffers (onoff) "Reset all the buffers due to change in EDE. *************** *** 555,567 **** ;;; Interactive method invocations ;; ! (defun ede (file) ! "Start up EDE on something. ! Argument FILE is the file or directory to load a project from." ! (interactive "fProject File: ") ! (if (not (file-exists-p file)) ! (ede-new file) ! (ede-load-project-file (file-name-directory file)))) (defun ede-new (type &optional name) "Create a new project starting of project type TYPE. --- 609,681 ---- ;;; Interactive method invocations ;; ! (defun ede (dir) ! "Start up EDE for directory DIR. ! If DIR has an existing project file, load it. ! Otherwise, create a new project for DIR." ! (interactive ! ;; When choosing a directory to turn on, and we see some directory here, ! ;; provide that as the default. ! (let* ((top (ede-toplevel-project default-directory)) ! (promptdflt (or top default-directory))) ! (list (read-directory-name "Project directory: " ! promptdflt promptdflt t)))) ! (unless (file-directory-p dir) ! (error "%s is not a directory" dir)) ! (when (ede-directory-get-open-project dir) ! (error "%s already has an open project associated with it" dir)) ! ! ;; Check if the directory has been added to the list of safe ! ;; directories. It can also add the directory to the safe list if ! ;; the user chooses. ! (if (ede-check-project-directory dir) ! (progn ! ;; If there is a project in DIR, load it, otherwise do ! ;; nothing. ! (ede-load-project-file dir) ! ! ;; Check if we loaded anything on the previous line. ! (if (ede-current-project dir) ! ! ;; We successfully opened an existing project. Some open ! ;; buffers may also be referring to this project. ! ;; Resetting all the buffers will get them to also point ! ;; at this new open project. ! (ede-reset-all-buffers 1) ! ! ;; ELSE ! ;; There was no project, so switch to `ede-new' which is how ! ;; a user can select a new kind of project to create. ! (let ((default-directory (expand-file-name dir))) ! (call-interactively 'ede-new)))) ! ! ;; If the proposed directory isn't safe, then say so. ! (error "%s is not an allowed project directory in `ede-project-directories'" ! dir))) ! ! (defun ede-check-project-directory (dir) ! "Check if DIR should be in `ede-project-directories'. ! If it is not, try asking the user if it should be added; if so, ! add it and save `ede-project-directories' via Customize. ! Return nil iff DIR should not be in `ede-project-directories'." ! (setq dir (directory-file-name (expand-file-name dir))) ; strip trailing / ! (or (eq ede-project-directories t) ! (and (functionp ede-project-directories) ! (funcall ede-project-directories dir)) ! ;; If `ede-project-directories' is a list, maybe add it. ! (when (listp ede-project-directories) ! (or (member dir ede-project-directories) ! (when (y-or-n-p (format "`%s' is not listed in `ede-project-directories'. ! Add it to the list of allowed project directories? " ! dir)) ! (push dir ede-project-directories) ! ;; If possible, save `ede-project-directories'. ! (if (or custom-file user-init-file) ! (let ((coding-system-for-read nil)) ! (customize-save-variable ! 'ede-project-directories ! ede-project-directories))) ! t))))) (defun ede-new (type &optional name) "Create a new project starting of project type TYPE. *************** *** 596,601 **** --- 710,720 ---- (error "Cannot create project in non-existent directory %s" default-directory)) (when (not (file-writable-p default-directory)) (error "No write permissions for %s" default-directory)) + (unless (ede-check-project-directory default-directory) + (error "%s is not an allowed project directory in `ede-project-directories'" + default-directory)) + ;; Make sure the project directory is loadable in the future. + (ede-check-project-directory default-directory) ;; Create the project (let* ((obj (object-assoc type 'name ede-project-class-files)) (nobj (let ((f (oref obj file)) *************** *** 629,634 **** --- 748,757 ---- (ede-add-subproject pp nobj) (ede-commit-project pp))) (ede-commit-project nobj)) + ;; Once the project is created, load it again. This used to happen + ;; lazily, but with project loading occurring less often and with + ;; security in mind, this is now the safe time to reload. + (ede-load-project-file default-directory) ;; Have the menu appear (setq ede-minor-mode t) ;; Allert the user *************** *** 651,661 **** (defun ede-rescan-toplevel () "Rescan all project files." (interactive) ! (let ((toppath (ede-toplevel-project default-directory)) ! (ede-deep-rescan t)) ! (project-rescan (ede-load-project-file toppath)) ! (ede-reset-all-buffers 1) ! )) (defun ede-new-target (&rest args) "Create a new target specific to this type of project file. --- 774,789 ---- (defun ede-rescan-toplevel () "Rescan all project files." (interactive) ! (if (not (ede-directory-get-open-project default-directory)) ! ;; This directory isn't open. Can't rescan. ! (error "Attempt to rescan a project that isn't open") ! ! ;; Continue ! (let ((toppath (ede-toplevel-project default-directory)) ! (ede-deep-rescan t)) ! ! (project-rescan (ede-load-project-file toppath)) ! (ede-reset-all-buffers 1)))) (defun ede-new-target (&rest args) "Create a new target specific to this type of project file. *************** *** 891,897 **** ;; Do the load ;;(message "EDE LOAD : %S" file) (let* ((file dir) ! (path (expand-file-name (file-name-directory file))) (pfc (ede-directory-project-p path)) (toppath nil) (o nil)) --- 1019,1025 ---- ;; Do the load ;;(message "EDE LOAD : %S" file) (let* ((file dir) ! (path (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name dir))) (pfc (ede-directory-project-p path)) (toppath nil) (o nil)) *************** *** 920,932 **** ;; See if it's been loaded before (setq o (object-assoc (ede-dir-to-projectfile pfc toppath) 'file ede-projects)) ! (if (not o) ! ;; If not, get it now. ! (let ((ede-constructing pfc)) ! (setq o (funcall (oref pfc load-type) toppath)) ! (when (not o) ! (error "Project type error: :load-type failed to create a project")) ! (ede-add-project-to-global-list o))) ;; Return the found root project. (when rootreturn (set rootreturn o)) --- 1048,1058 ---- ;; See if it's been loaded before (setq o (object-assoc (ede-dir-to-projectfile pfc toppath) 'file ede-projects)) ! ! ;; If not open yet, load it. ! (unless o ! (let ((ede-constructing pfc)) ! (setq o (ede-auto-load-project pfc toppath)))) ;; Return the found root project. (when rootreturn (set rootreturn o)) *************** *** 980,992 **** (and root (ede-find-subproject-for-directory root updir)) ;; Try the all structure based search. ! (ede-directory-get-open-project updir) ! ;; Load up the project file as a last resort. ! ;; Last resort since it uses file-truename, and other ! ;; slow features. ! (and (ede-directory-project-p updir) ! (ede-load-project-file ! (file-name-as-directory updir)))))))))) (defun ede-current-project (&optional dir) "Return the current project file. --- 1106,1112 ---- (and root (ede-find-subproject-for-directory root updir)) ;; Try the all structure based search. ! (ede-directory-get-open-project updir)))))))) (defun ede-current-project (&optional dir) "Return the current project file. *************** *** 1000,1010 **** ;; No current project. (when (not ans) (let* ((ldir (or dir default-directory))) ! (setq ans (ede-directory-get-open-project ldir)) ! (or ans ! ;; No open project, if this dir pass project-p, then load. ! (when (ede-directory-project-p ldir) ! (setq ans (ede-load-project-file ldir)))))) ;; Return what we found. ans)) --- 1120,1126 ---- ;; No current project. (when (not ans) (let* ((ldir (or dir default-directory))) ! (setq ans (ede-directory-get-open-project ldir)))) ;; Return what we found. ans)) *************** *** 1059,1070 **** "Return the project which is the parent of TARGET. It is recommended you track the project a different way as this function could become slow in time." ! ;; @todo - use ede-object-project as a starting point. ! (let ((ans nil) (projs ede-projects)) ! (while (and (not ans) projs) ! (setq ans (ede-target-in-project-p (car projs) target) ! projs (cdr projs))) ! ans)) (defmethod ede-find-target ((proj ede-project) buffer) "Fetch the target in PROJ belonging to BUFFER or nil." --- 1175,1187 ---- "Return the project which is the parent of TARGET. It is recommended you track the project a different way as this function could become slow in time." ! (or ede-object-project ! ;; If not cached, derive it from the current directory of the target. ! (let ((ans nil) (projs ede-projects)) ! (while (and (not ans) projs) ! (setq ans (ede-target-in-project-p (car projs) target) ! projs (cdr projs))) ! ans))) (defmethod ede-find-target ((proj ede-project) buffer) "Fetch the target in PROJ belonging to BUFFER or nil." --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 01:33:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk8nN-00061D-RG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:33:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53315) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8nK-0005zP-9M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:33:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8nJ-0005Ca-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:33:22 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:60673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8nH-0005CK-ME; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:33:19 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk8nG-0002pk-Gj; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:33:18 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:33:11 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig383A0B6BA67EC8A3CB31B2B3" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 06:33:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig383A0B6BA67EC8A3CB31B2B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/8/12 10:07 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > A patch to fix this problem, for the Emacs 23.3 release, is attached. > It prevents EDE from loading Project.ede files, except in directories > explicitly designated as "safe" by the user via the new list variable > `ede-project-directories'. The value of this variable is initially the= > empty list; Emacs offers to add to it when the user invokes the `M-x > ede' or `M-x ede-new' command. EDE project types that do not use > Project.ede (e.g. those that scan makefiles for build information) are > unaffected, since they do not involve loading Lisp code. It's great that this is being fixed so quickly. > Due to this problem, we will make a 23.4 release from the emacs-23 > branch. [snip] > In a few days, > I will make the 23.3.90 pretest; during this brief window, if anyone > thinks there is another bug fix that ought to go into 23.4, please > promptly raise the issue on emacs-devel---but we will be very > conservative about allowing commits, in order to release 23.4 ASAP. I never got around to committing the patch below to the emacs-23 branch. Would it be okay to add it before the 23.4 release? *** /a/simple.el 2012-01-08 22:29:04.904878400 -0800 --- /b/simple.el 2012-01-08 22:29:18.867504900 -0800 *************** *** 6660,6665 **** --- 6660,6667 ---- (display-warning package (nth 3 list) :warning))) (error nil))) + (put 'lexical-binding 'safe-local-variable t) + (mapc (lambda (elem) (eval-after-load (car elem) `(bad-package-check ',(car elem))))= bad-packages-alist) --------------enig383A0B6BA67EC8A3CB31B2B3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8KiikACgkQ17c2LVA10Vv/qgCfQ83bXrRrD0OO0swuDK4TPKwG 7/MAn31VYlnRU7SvPltO9ARwN/idy2Gu =PlM3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig383A0B6BA67EC8A3CB31B2B3-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 02:06:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk9JK-0000lH-BK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:06:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34675) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9JI-0000kT-IS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:06:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9JF-0001Ca-84 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:06:24 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41080) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9JF-0001CW-6h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:06:21 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.183] (port=59128 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9JE-0006eq-2s; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:06:20 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:06:12 +0800 In-Reply-To: <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:33:11 -0800") Message-ID: <878vlhz76j.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:06:25 -0000 Daniel Colascione writes: > I never got around to committing the patch below to the emacs-23 > branch. Would it be okay to add it before the 23.4 release? > > + (put 'lexical-binding 'safe-local-variable t) What's the rationale? If Emacs 23 users try to load Lisp libraries that use lexical binding, that will tend to lead to bugs, so why make it *easier* for that to happen? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 02:16:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk9T9-0005ZM-Hm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:16:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44393) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9T7-0005Wx-Fv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:16:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9T6-0002UU-DV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:16:33 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:62372) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9T4-0002U8-2N; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:16:30 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A803C055D; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:16:24 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:16:24 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans In-Reply-To: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:16:34 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:07:47 +0800, Chong Yidong said: > In a few days, I will make the 23.3.90 pretest; during this brief > window, if anyone thinks there is another bug fix that ought to go > into 23.4, please promptly raise the issue on emacs-devel---but we > will be very conservative about allowing commits, in order to > release 23.4 ASAP. If no serious problems are found with the > 23.3.90 pretest, the 23.4 release will probably follow right after. The latest Emacs 23 Mac port contains some backported patches for redisplay bugs that was found in the trunk (revno 106534, 106517(Bug#10119), 106357, 106345(Bug#9496), 106279(Bug#9947), 106223, and 106220). They can be used as candidates. Among them, I think at least revno 106534 and 106357 should be backported to the emacs-23 branch because otherwise users may occasionally see very strange results: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-11/msg00278.html This strange display could not be observed with Emacs 23.3 so easily except the very rare cases, because this bug has emerged by a fix for another bug: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-11/msg00308.html YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 02:26:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rk9cm-0006xo-FK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:26:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58955) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9cj-0006xg-Mq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:26:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9ci-0003oa-FG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:26:29 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:60752) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9cg-0003oF-Ix; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:26:26 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk9cf-0002sc-1R; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:26:25 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0A969B.9020806@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 23:26:19 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> <878vlhz76j.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <878vlhz76j.fsf@gnu.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig7E3DCEBED54B50255B22F7C1" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:26:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig7E3DCEBED54B50255B22F7C1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/8/12 11:06 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > Daniel Colascione writes: >=20 >> I never got around to committing the patch below to the emacs-23 >> branch. Would it be okay to add it before the 23.4 release? >> >> + (put 'lexical-binding 'safe-local-variable t) >=20 > What's the rationale? If Emacs 23 users try to load Lisp libraries tha= t > use lexical binding, that will tend to lead to bugs, so why make it > *easier* for that to happen? My proposed patch makes it painless to edit Emacs 24 lisp using Emacs 23. A user might want to read or backport Emacs 24 lisp files, and because it's possible to write lisp that works correctly whether lexical-binding is on or off, a user might even legitimately want to load these files. The warning about the lexical-binding variable appears only when a user tries to edit a file with lexical-binding. If an Emacs 23 user tries to load or compile such a file, he won't receive a warning. If we wants to guard against loading a file in an Emacs without support for lexical-binding, an (assert (boundp 'lexical-binding)) at toplevel should do the trick; a more general solution would be to add code to the Emacs 23 lisp reader or byte compiler to reject files that specify lexical-binding. As far as editing itself is concerned, though, lexical-binding is indeed a harmless variable in Emacs 23: inert, sure, but harmless. --------------enig7E3DCEBED54B50255B22F7C1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8KlpwACgkQ17c2LVA10VvJcACg5hvO6livVuEfBuKaqXeH3tew 21oAnjNqOWpeWNgkypd/9bPOHRIfwTJd =jTT3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig7E3DCEBED54B50255B22F7C1-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 03:48:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkAuY-0002RW-Bf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkAuW-0002RO-5h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkAuU-00077J-Lu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:56 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42242) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkAuU-00077F-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:54 -0500 Received: from dann by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkAuU-0005gd-Fy; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:54 -0500 From: Dan Nicolaescu To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:54 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:01:03 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: "T.V. Raman" , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:48:56 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> Culprit in facemenu.el: (define-key global-map "\M-o" 'facemenu-keymap) > > Oh, right. So the real problem is the use of ESC O D escape sequences. > AFAIK these sequences aren't used any more in current > terminal emulators. Please try in an xterm: emacs -nw C-q > I wonder how you ended up with such a situation. The problem is that the terminal emits one escape sequence and terminfo expects a different one. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 04:04:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkBA1-0004nj-5d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:04:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48078) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkB9u-0004mt-EI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:04:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkB9n-0000tD-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:04:50 -0500 Received: from mailout.melmac.se ([62.20.26.67]:50826) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkB9n-0000so-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:04:43 -0500 Received: from mail01.melmac.se (mail01.melmac.se [62.20.26.80]) by mailout.melmac.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4299B72 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:04:40 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 29986 invoked by uid 89); 9 Jan 2012 09:03:32 -0000 Received: from h-46-59-42-18.na.cust.bahnhof.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) (boel.djarv@bdtv.se@46.59.42.18) by mail01.melmac.se with ESMTPA; 9 Jan 2012 09:03:32 -0000 Received: from [10.225.16.91] (unknown [193.45.43.33]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D637B7FA058; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:04:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F0AADA6.5060408@swipnet.se> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:04:38 +0100 From: "Jan D." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 62.20.26.67 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:04:56 -0000 YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu skrev 2012-01-09 08:16: >>>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:07:47 +0800, Chong Yidong said: > >> In a few days, I will make the 23.3.90 pretest; during this brief >> window, if anyone thinks there is another bug fix that ought to go >> into 23.4, please promptly raise the issue on emacs-devel---but we >> will be very conservative about allowing commits, in order to >> release 23.4 ASAP. If no serious problems are found with the >> 23.3.90 pretest, the 23.4 release will probably follow right after. > > The latest Emacs 23 Mac port contains some backported patches for > redisplay bugs that was found in the trunk (revno 106534, > 106517(Bug#10119), 106357, 106345(Bug#9496), 106279(Bug#9947), 106223, > and 106220). They can be used as candidates. Among them, I think at > least revno 106534 and 106357 should be backported to the emacs-23 > branch because otherwise users may occasionally see very strange > results: > If we are fixing NS-stuff, the fact that Emacs 23 does not resize correctly under OSX Lion must be a candidate. Jan D. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 04:33:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkBc2-0004P7-DP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:33:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBbz-0004Mn-FP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:33:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBbt-0006EP-Q3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:33:51 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:47612) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBbt-0005zJ-CB; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:33:45 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q099XWBb020212; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:33:32 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q099XVmx022820; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:33:31 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q099XVD7022816; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:33:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20234.46182.504448.72322@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:33:26 +0100 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans In-Reply-To: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:33:52 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012, Chong Yidong wrote: > Hiroshi Oota has found a security flaw in EDE (part of CEDET), > a development tool included in Emacs. [...] Does this also affect the standalone version of CEDET, i.e. cedet-1.0 from ? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 04:53:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkBua-0007le-Ti for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44671) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBuV-0007jY-Ir for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBuP-0000kg-Ml for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:52:59 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:43400) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBuP-0000kc-K5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:52:53 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.183] (port=60111 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBuO-0006OR-T0; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:52:53 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:52:45 +0800 In-Reply-To: (YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:16:24 +0900") Message-ID: <87ehv9xkwi.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:53:03 -0000 YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu writes: > The latest Emacs 23 Mac port contains some backported patches for > redisplay bugs that was found in the trunk (revno 106534, > 106517(Bug#10119), 106357, 106345(Bug#9496), 106279(Bug#9947), 106223, > and 106220). They can be used as candidates. Among them, I think at > least revno 106534 and 106357 should be backported to the emacs-23 > branch because otherwise users may occasionally see very strange > results Thanks. It's certainly prudent to fix all those unitialized variable bugs. Committed except for 106517, which I'm going to stare at for a bit longer. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 04:53:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkBv9-0008PC-E9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44931) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBv7-0008P6-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBv6-0000uK-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:43416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBv6-0000uG-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:36 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.183] (port=60149 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBv5-0006RB-Cy; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:53:36 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <20234.46182.504448.72322@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:53:29 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20234.46182.504448.72322@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> (Ulrich Mueller's message of "Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:33:26 +0100") Message-ID: <87aa5xxkva.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:53:38 -0000 Ulrich Mueller writes: > Does this also affect the standalone version of CEDET, i.e. cedet-1.0 > from ? Yes. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 04:56:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkBxd-0000so-S1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:56:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48135) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBxZ-0000rz-4R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:56:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBxV-0001TK-4G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:56:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:43450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBxU-0001TG-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:56:05 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.183] (port=60155 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkBxU-0006b8-4I; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 04:56:04 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: "Jan D." Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <4F0AADA6.5060408@swipnet.se> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:55:56 +0800 In-Reply-To: <4F0AADA6.5060408@swipnet.se> (Jan D.'s message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:04:38 +0100") Message-ID: <8762glxkr7.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:56:13 -0000 "Jan D." writes: > If we are fixing NS-stuff, the fact that Emacs 23 does not resize > correctly under OSX Lion must be a candidate. The bugs that YM pointed out were not NS-specific. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 08:43:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkFW2-0006c7-OE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50355) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFVx-0006bx-E6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFVt-0002tg-9o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:53 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:49251) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFVs-0002tP-VE; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:49 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q09DhkAn026069; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:43:46 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q09DhkP5025312; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:43:46 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q09Dhkaw025307; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:43:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20234.61197.228601.377659@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:43:41 +0100 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans In-Reply-To: <87aa5xxkva.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <20234.46182.504448.72322@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <87aa5xxkva.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:43:57 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012, Chong Yidong wrote: >> Does this also affect the standalone version of CEDET, i.e. cedet-1.0 >> from ? > Yes. The patch for Emacs 23 fails for it, unfortunately. In case anyone is interested, a (almost trivially) backported version of the patch can be found here: From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 08:52:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkFeM-00022M-68 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:52:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54639) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFeC-0001tn-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:52:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFe6-00049v-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:52:24 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:35101) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFe6-00049q-E3; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:52:18 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q09DqEx6030941; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 08:52:14 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 049CB58F7E; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 08:52:12 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans Message-ID: References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:52:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F0A8A27.50704@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:33:11 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <718149> : uri <1043559> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:52:29 -0000 > + (put 'lexical-binding 'safe-local-variable t) I'm fine with the concept, but please do it with the same code as used in Emacs-24 (or at least at the same place), so that merging the emacs-23 branch into trunk won't bring a duplicate setting. Take a look at files.el on the trunk where we do that. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 08:59:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkFkw-000394-73 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:59:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49294) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFkq-000367-A5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:59:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFkm-0005PK-8v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:59:16 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:40275) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkFkm-0005PD-4X; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:59:12 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q09DxA2D023439; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 08:59:10 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9ADF658F7E; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Dan Nicolaescu Subject: Re: Ubuntu 10.0: TERM=Linux: facemenu steals arrow keys Message-ID: References: <20232.39090.943202.772602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:59:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Dan Nicolaescu's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 03:48:54 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4095=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4095> : streams <718151> : uri <1043561> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: "T.V. Raman" , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:59:20 -0000 >>> Culprit in facemenu.el: (define-key global-map "\M-o" 'facemenu-keymap) >> Oh, right. So the real problem is the use of ESC O D escape sequences. >> AFAIK these sequences aren't used any more in current >> terminal emulators. > Please try in an xterm: > emacs -nw > C-q Duh... yes, I see I'm really dense these days. Indeed, once input-decode-map is setup properly, there's no conflict since facemenu uses the "ESC o" prefix whereas the cursor movement uses "ESC O". But in the absence of the input-decode-map, "ESC O" ends up unbound, so Emacs tries to downcase the key to find a binding (which it does find). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 09:19:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkG4P-0007fP-Ka for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:19:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57782) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkG4I-0007dr-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:19:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkG4C-0000Ta-B2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:19:22 -0500 Received: from randomsample.de ([83.169.19.17]:39435) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkG4C-0000TU-1A; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:19:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=randomsample.de; s=a; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=mytQ7NZ9g5v95zg1QR5odiV+BwRn9DpwCmyee811qfE=; b=Ho3DpoS6qz3WedLe0BI81KxlFLGLeqNK+LZtAYcANi6ZaZeTG6at0gwe7zJMWV3pXishIagHs0be3d0sYqC1i6tgjltg3PJgA0UTTZwOX4KODZgqgrXwUWgRJkflS8Dv; Received: from ibookg4-c2.pc.gwdg.de ([134.76.4.219]) by randomsample.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RkG4A-0001Rz-Eh; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:19:14 +0100 From: David Engster To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans In-Reply-To: <20234.61197.228601.377659@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> (Ulrich Mueller's message of "Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:43:41 +0100") References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <20234.46182.504448.72322@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <87aa5xxkva.fsf@gnu.org> <20234.61197.228601.377659@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Ulrich Mueller , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:19:08 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 83.169.19.17 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:19:27 -0000 Ulrich Mueller writes: >>>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012, Chong Yidong wrote: > >>> Does this also affect the standalone version of CEDET, i.e. cedet-1.0 >>> from ? > >> Yes. > > The patch for Emacs 23 fails for it, unfortunately. In case anyone is > interested, a (almost trivially) backported version of the patch can > be found here: > A new CEDET 1.0.1 (or similar) will be released soon. The bzr repos trunk and newtrunk were updated. -David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 09:26:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkGBa-00015j-Tu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45014) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGBU-0000yR-2j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGBO-0001mb-4n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:47 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:51782) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGBN-0001mM-OH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:42 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGBL-00086z-Fw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:26:39 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:26:39 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:26:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 26 Message-ID: <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:q3c6yMuDZQvh1BFiy/jmv5u8i+c= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:26:53 -0000 Speaking of security libraries... I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html The library is in the public domain, with no usage or distribution restrictions. I'm not sure if that means we can or can't include the support. My rationale for supporting this library is that it's fast, very simple on the client side, and provides good security for arbitrary binary payloads. There are many places within Emacs where that's appropriate, whereas heavyweight network-oriented security like GnuTLS is either not appropriate or not usable. An example is EPA/EPG, which currently relies on the external GPG utility. Emacs could provide similar functionality (perhaps integrated with EPA/EPG, perhaps standalone) without relying on external utilities if it has NaCl support. NaCl can't replace GnuTLS for many reasons, but I think by itself it would be a good addition to Emacs. The C API is really simple compared to GnuTLS, so the actual C support will not take long to write. Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 09:30:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkGF4-0002JE-Pj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35426) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGEt-0002EY-UF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGEp-0002U0-ID for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:19 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGEp-0002Tw-18 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:30:15 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkGEn-0001VV-IS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:30:13 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:30:13 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:30:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:53 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87hb05ne8i.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:YkA112iI5uIyPF8HKun/LN6fDTU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:30:28 -0000 On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:04:53 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: >> What I've now propsed, after Chong clarified the maintainers' position, >> is the same service, enabled by default but with no packages (so an >> interested user only has to customize one variable and it does nothing >> otherwise). I think that's the middle ground we've been looking for. >> I only need to know, from Stefan or Chong, if that proposal is OK and if >> it should go into the current trunk or if it should wait until 24.1 is out. SM> I don't see a problem with it, but it's too late for 24.1. OK, thanks. I'll add it after the release. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 10:30:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkHBH-000415-UX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54619) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHBB-00040x-HN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHB5-0004TG-SK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:33 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:35671) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHB5-0004TA-Lc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:27 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q09FUP8p014193; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:30:25 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 6546D58F7E; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4096=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4096> : streams <718168> : uri <1043606> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:30:39 -0000 > I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library > for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious, so the kind of compile-time linking model we use for things like libgnutls would not be appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add nacl as a dependency if it's not actually used). OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading of extension libraries. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 10:56:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkHZp-0002sz-8R for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:56:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50057) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHZi-0002sJ-II for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:55:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHZT-0000dL-T2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:55:54 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:49311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHZT-0000dH-QF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:55:39 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkHZT-0006uK-D3; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:55:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:55:39 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: <510B6963E364499BBAF14665874F1C83@us.oracle.com> (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org><871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org><962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com><878vljchjo.fsf@mail.jurta.org><76BD385B7317495CAE8E5EBFE545A1BB@us.oracle.com><87d3av9khw.fsf@mail.jurta.org><87ipkn6poj.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <3D4EE65ECFA64F7C8CDEFF55A750E37C@us.oracle.com> <510B6963E364499BBAF14665874F1C83@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:55:59 -0000 > We are not bureaucrats, we are developing software to be useful for > users and to give them freedom. We follow certain practical practices > because they are generally helpful, but they are not imposed by gods. I doubt anyone disagrees with that. Just how is it relevant here? You are askig for certain procedures to be followed rigidly. We use those procedures to smooth out the problems caused by removing a feature that people really use. If it looks like Info-edit is rarely or never used, we don't need to follow them rigidly for Info-edit. We are not manufacturing medicines here. Even if we make an error, the worst that happens is inconvenience. A small chance of a small inconvenience is not significant. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 11:44:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkIKT-0001el-4V for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:44:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56579) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIKN-0001d2-4T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:44:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIKG-0001Os-Hg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:44:07 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:40006) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIKG-0001Oe-D1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:44:00 -0500 Received: by wgbdt13 with SMTP id dt13so1471174wgb.30 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CxND7bwutU+x8fe2npfwzV20eZeHkWOKl5ZmdbjjL5o=; b=TxvwbndjFpZtbTlZX3tF/dfogg43q0f0KEixnOiiNUWnc783j2/FAiSXCs/rCoGrzX huBj2iFdL0Vd30oF0DjODFYPj4zZCnzKJc+cx6sidlo/rZ4koBA6vWt4ZKbMhA+XzNWo 1ZFydY8DLtfuIgkv/6i3x1HXeoLOo8RhjIYxI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.24.105 with SMTP id t9mr5982196wif.19.1326127439052; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.96.75 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 08:43:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:43:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: Stefan Monnier , tzz@lifelogs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:44:12 -0000 On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Stefan Monnier w= rote: >> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. =A0There is info on NaCl here: > > While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp > packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious, so the kind of > compile-time linking model we use for things like libgnutls would not be > appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add nacl as a dependency if > it's not actually used). > > OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading > of extension libraries. Only if NaCl's "Automatic CPU-specific tuning" can be done at run-time and not only at compile-time. Ted, what's the status with that? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 11:53:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkITj-00083J-M1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55554) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkITa-0007wa-VF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkITW-00036T-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:38 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60654) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkITW-00036A-5g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:34 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkITS-0002Me-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:53:30 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:53:30 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:53:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:14 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 37 Message-ID: <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:X49mjgfAw1cLyLvmDHJoo+2dX6o= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:53:43 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:23 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: >> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: SM> While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp SM> packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that I already mentioned. In-memory storage of secrets (auth-source.el and many places in Gnus) and emacsclient-style RPC control of Emacs come to mind immediately. The biggest advantage over GnuTLS in my opinion is the much simpler interface. There are less than 30 functions, as opposed to hundreds in GnuTLS, and they are modeless which makes the API easy to learn and use. SM> so the kind of compile-time linking model we use for things like SM> libgnutls would not be appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add SM> nacl as a dependency if it's not actually used). SM> OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading SM> of extension libraries. It would be cool if I could put out a GNU ELPA package that provided the NaCl library hookup, but NaCl is not written to be dynamically loaded. NaCl is all C/C++, just 160K in a compressed tarball and 300K as a static libnacl.a file. The code is available through a GitHub clone, see https://github.com/jeremywohl/nacl.git or you can get the tarball from http://hyperelliptic.org/nacl/nacl-20110221.tar.bz2 I don't know how much work it would be to adapt NaCl through a custom dynamic library or if it's better to make it part of the Emacs C tree. Let me know what you think. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 12:10:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkIk4-0006h0-Jr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:10:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53445) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIjw-0006d3-3D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:10:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIjq-0006GR-6X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:10:32 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:47946) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIjp-0006GM-QT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:10:26 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXJ00N00JIT0M00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:09:33 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.34.201]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXJ004OVJNW7UA5@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:09:33 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:09:34 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) In-reply-to: <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:10:37 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500 > > I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library > for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: > > http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html Why not libnettle? We already use it, albeit indirectly, because latest versions of GnuTLS depend on it. There's also libgcrypt, which is a dependency of libxml2. If the functionalities are comparable, bringing in yet another, third, dependency of the same kind doesn't make sense, IMO. > My rationale for supporting this library is that it's fast, very simple > on the client side, and provides good security for arbitrary binary > payloads. There are many places within Emacs where that's appropriate, > whereas heavyweight network-oriented security like GnuTLS is either not > appropriate or not usable. An example is EPA/EPG, which currently > relies on the external GPG utility. Emacs could provide similar > functionality (perhaps integrated with EPA/EPG, perhaps standalone) > without relying on external utilities if it has NaCl support. Isn't GPG built on top of a library that itself sits on top of libgcrypt? If so, it would make sense to use these libraries instead of yet another one. With each new external dependency, we (a) increase the number of external know-how needed to maintain Emacs; (b) increase the complexity of building a feature-rich Emacs on anything but the few most popular GNU/Linux systems; and (c) increase the amount of energy Emacs maintainers/contributors need to spend on external projects -- to build them regularly, participate in discussions, contribute patches, etc. I say, let's bring these dependencies and energy spent on other projects to the absolute minimum, and if we already depend on some functionality, even if it isn't the latest and the greatest, let's use it for as long as it satisfies our needs. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 12:27:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJ0M-0000mC-Q7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:27:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60337) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ0G-0000jG-Ub for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:27:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ0C-0000Ym-1K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:27:24 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35833) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ0B-0000YU-Ou for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:27:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ07-0005G3-3a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:27:15 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:27:15 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:27:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:26:44 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 49 Message-ID: <87y5tglrcb.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:P+X1OiOyAGIM0TkevVmFxc0dZOI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:27:29 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:09:34 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500 >> >> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: >> >> http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html EZ> Why not libnettle? We already use it, albeit indirectly, because EZ> latest versions of GnuTLS depend on it. EZ> There's also libgcrypt, which is a dependency of libxml2. EZ> If the functionalities are comparable, bringing in yet another, third, EZ> dependency of the same kind doesn't make sense, IMO. The NaCl API is simplest and it seems to be really fast, that's what attracted me to it. I agree, though, that libnettle or libgcrypt may be a better choice. NaCl is not required at all. I simply didn't think of libnettle and libgcrypt. EZ> Isn't GPG built on top of a library that itself sits on top of EZ> libgcrypt? If so, it would make sense to use these libraries instead EZ> of yet another one. Unfortunately there's no way to use GPG's functionality without invoking GPG itself, so libgcrypt is no better than libnettle in this context. EZ> With each new external dependency, we (a) increase the number of EZ> external know-how needed to maintain Emacs; (b) increase the EZ> complexity of building a feature-rich Emacs on anything but the few EZ> most popular GNU/Linux systems; and (c) increase the amount of energy EZ> Emacs maintainers/contributors need to spend on external projects -- EZ> to build them regularly, participate in discussions, contribute EZ> patches, etc. EZ> I say, let's bring these dependencies and energy spent on other EZ> projects to the absolute minimum, and if we already depend on some EZ> functionality, even if it isn't the latest and the greatest, let's use EZ> it for as long as it satisfies our needs. OK, I agree. I'll look at libgcrypt and libnettle and see if they are easily exposed. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 12:29:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJ2d-0001Uu-8s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:29:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ2W-0001UR-G9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:29:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ2R-00018u-7Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:29:44 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:54533) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJ2Q-00018I-Tt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:29:39 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXJ00000KDS0T00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:29:32 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.34.201]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXJ003K0KL6QAW5@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:29:32 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:29:33 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) In-reply-to: <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83obuceqde.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:29:49 -0000 > Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:09:34 +0200 > From: Eli Zaretskii > > There's also libgcrypt, which is a dependency of libxml2. Sorry, this part is wrong, I confused libxml2 with libxslt. All the rest still stands, however, as libnettle is brought in by GnuTLS. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 12:34:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJ7S-0004Ti-9r for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:34:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50911) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIZf-00035D-Kn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:00:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIZU-0004du-8w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:59:50 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42664) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIZT-0004dj-UF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:59:44 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkIZQ-0005zU-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:59:40 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:59:40 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:59:40 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:59:24 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 25 Message-ID: <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:yw01o2uFtNQ98LOYmgbd4W9j1RA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:34:46 -0000 On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:43:58 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >>> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: >> >> While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp >> packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious, so the kind of >> compile-time linking model we use for things like libgnutls would not be >> appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add nacl as a dependency if >> it's not actually used). >> >> OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading >> of extension libraries. CM> Only if NaCl's "Automatic CPU-specific tuning" can be done at run-time CM> and not only at compile-time. Ted, what's the status with that? If we manage it as a GNU ELPA package with an included tarball, so it's downloaded and compiled locally, sure. But otherwise yeah, it's not so nice. NaCl is a nice library with no community, AFAICT, and that's really my biggest concern about integrating with it. There's no place to propose changes or get updates. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 12:49:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJLN-0007si-7O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:49:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50433) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJLG-0007o8-9M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:49:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJLA-00042j-Al for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:49:06 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:46800) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJLA-00042c-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:49:00 -0500 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so4018960wib.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:48:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kiLr8r278RjLEEuqcRsIerx53T3z6SrRwienRqWV6jA=; b=gDK5QaVPN+d9SQPw8qxOO27sVmOpc8KXoaPQLbMfknyooJSsT+2SS7c1ycNczTMd+O dr+V78KMsF+dCszAl15kl4VjOFXLy7IZyFG6STjKPb3I/1t6PeSvEgo5XaFYrwW4EXc3 rDlXdIyR/34mp27D3gqfKT7Hh3yvUKcY81Gk0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.83.72 with SMTP id o8mr6349760wiy.22.1326131339171; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.96.75 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 09:48:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:48:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:49:11 -0000 2012/1/9 Ted Zlatanov : > On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:43:58 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: > > CM> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic libra= ry >>>> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. =A0There is info on NaCl here: >>> >>> While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp >>> packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious, so the kind of >>> compile-time linking model we use for things like libgnutls would not b= e >>> appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add nacl as a dependency if >>> it's not actually used). >>> >>> OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading >>> of extension libraries. > > CM> Only if NaCl's "Automatic CPU-specific tuning" can be done at run-tim= e > CM> and not only at compile-time. Ted, what's the status with that? > > If we manage it as a GNU ELPA package with an included tarball, so it's > downloaded and compiled locally, sure. =A0But otherwise yeah, it's not so > nice. =A0NaCl is a nice library with no community, AFAICT, and that's That sounds like a good plan :). > really my biggest concern about integrating with it. =A0There's no place > to propose changes or get updates. NaCl's design goals, implementation and patent cleanness make it attractive to anyone who's had to make use of any kind of cipher functionality. If there's no forum, I suggest addressing the authors listed in http://cr.yp.to/highspeed/coolnacl-20111201.pdf If you're bound by FIPS rules, your choices are limited and different. I wouldn't put much weight on that. djb has time and time again proven that his work is solid and provides less attack surface. Part of the reason that there's much asm code involved may be that NaCl avoids timing attacks by design. I'd definitely favor NaCl, just because they provide a simple API with know= n safe defaults. Way safer than using OpenSSL without a the required crypto background. Most bugs surface in combination of the different tools from a crypto lib, because too much code is written without being aware of all the semantics o= f the used ciphers and modes. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 13:17:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJmb-0007Vm-Vt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:17:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJmW-0007PC-K8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:17:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJmS-000843-P5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:17:16 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:46964) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJmS-00083t-F8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:17:12 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJmQ-00013Z-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:17:10 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:17:10 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:17:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:17:00 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 25 Message-ID: <87wr90kag3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:2XJrcrqXpcw4CKAiAQ3dQj5bbCQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:17:20 -0000 On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:48:58 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> NaCl's design goals, implementation and patent cleanness make it attractive CM> to anyone who's had to make use of any kind of cipher functionality. I think it makes sense to provide a GNU ELPA package with NaCl, absolutely. But it's provided as a static library and I don't know how to convert it to dynamically loaded, and Emacs doesn't have facilities to load arbitrary dynamic libraries at runtime. The rest (packaging, on-activation compile) I can handle in the package itself. If you want to help out... or anyone else... let me know off-list. CM> I'd definitely favor NaCl, just because they provide a simple API with known CM> safe defaults. Way safer than using OpenSSL without a the required CM> crypto background. CM> Most bugs surface in combination of the different tools from a crypto lib, CM> because too much code is written without being aware of all the semantics of CM> the used ciphers and modes. Look at libnettle as Eli suggested, I'm leaning towards it since we already have it through GnuTLS, for the Emacs core. I still would like to provide the NaCl support as a GNU ELPA package. Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 13:21:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkJqu-0000oF-Py for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:21:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42241) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJqp-0000o3-17 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:21:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJqj-0000bp-At for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:21:43 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:44848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkJqj-0000bl-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:21:37 -0500 Received: by wgbdt13 with SMTP id dt13so1573592wgb.30 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:21:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EQw6V3c1hIpunSA0hsEm2NGTCo4v9bYhUP8WAfvrSG4=; b=dHxEaTx49ua4uiT8wFhI/+8srQ5UOC7Gzve59jTyL0RMxkr4hOiLHMmOgIPcl/o1vq oGfmlya47CKDV2NF8NCfCLGmIFWMqw10gTld6tXit12r85v4EYTcbXUIzDW5TJRl7xgU 9lVCC7ywrDkietGrhHEIiqdSktH5vSJaDY240= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.101.3 with SMTP id fc3mr6607800wib.22.1326133296246; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.96.75 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:21:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87wr90kag3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87wr90kag3.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 19:21:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:21:47 -0000 2012/1/9 Ted Zlatanov : > On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:48:58 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: > > CM> NaCl's design goals, implementation and patent cleanness make it attr= active > CM> to anyone who's had to make use of any kind of cipher functionality. > > I think it makes sense to provide a GNU ELPA package with NaCl, > absolutely. =A0But it's provided as a static library and I don't know how > to convert it to dynamically loaded, and Emacs doesn't have facilities > to load arbitrary dynamic libraries at runtime. =A0The rest (packaging, > on-activation compile) I can handle in the package itself. =A0If you want > to help out... or anyone else... let me know off-list. Does wrapping the .a file in a dynamic lib make sense? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 15:41:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkM1s-0007YC-8q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:41:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35659) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM1n-0007RQ-SJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:41:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM1m-0006h1-I5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:41:11 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:65531) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM1m-0006gu-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:41:10 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so5482808obc.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:41:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.43.10 with SMTP id s10mr16165434obl.43.1326141669218; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.147.37 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 12:41:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:41:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) From: Paul Michael Reilly To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044631161d978104b61e6b65 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:41:13 -0000 --f46d044631161d978104b61e6b65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My curiosity peaked recently with the thread on NaCl support for Emacs. Not having a clue what NaCl was all about, I took to Google to find out more. And if I read it right, it is all about having a HTML/Javascript/CSS wrapper around a C/C++ native code application running in the browser. Very cool in its own right but simply awesome if that wrapped code happens to be Emacs. The NaCl Support for Emacs discussion seems to be focused on security/library (crypto) issues which tend to make my brain hurt so a new thread seems appropriate to discuss this notion of Emacs running in a Chrome tab. For all I know the current NaCl thread might be a totally different NaCl thing than NativeClient. I raised this issue last year (Emacs in the Cloud) but I don't recollect any mention of NativeClient at that time. The notion of opening up a new machine, installing Chrome (if it is not already installed), heading off to the Chrome Web Store to get the latest NaCl version of Gnu Emacs, and then using an Emacs tab to edit files/run shells/install ELPA packages is very appealing to me. Is anyone aware of technical "gotchas" that make this notion unrealizable by a mere mortal in just one lifetime? -pmr --f46d044631161d978104b61e6b65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My curiosity peaked recently with the thread on NaCl support for Emacs. =A0= Not having a clue what NaCl was all about, I took to Google to find out mor= e. =A0And if I read it right, it is all about having a HTML/Javascript/CSS = wrapper around a C/C++ native code application running in the browser. =A0V= ery cool in its own right but simply awesome if that wrapped code happens t= o be Emacs. =A0The NaCl Support for Emacs discussion seems to be focused on= security/library =A0(crypto) issues which tend to make my brain hurt so a = new thread seems appropriate to discuss this notion of Emacs running in a C= hrome tab. =A0For all I know the current NaCl thread might be a totally dif= ferent NaCl thing than NativeClient.

I raised this issue last year (Emacs in the Cloud) but I don= 't recollect any mention of NativeClient at that time. =A0The notion of= opening up a new machine, installing Chrome (if it is not already installe= d), heading off to the Chrome Web Store to get the latest NaCl version of G= nu Emacs, and then using an Emacs tab to edit files/run shells/install ELPA= packages is very appealing to me.

Is anyone aware of technical "gotchas" that m= ake this notion unrealizable by a mere mortal in just one lifetime?

-pmr
--f46d044631161d978104b61e6b65-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 15:49:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkM9o-0001EU-Cu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:49:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM9l-0001Bt-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:49:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM9k-0008N6-KE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:49:25 -0500 Received: from mx1.bahnhof.se ([213.80.101.11]:58984) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkM9k-0008MB-ED for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:49:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (mf.bahnhof.se [213.80.101.20]) by mx1-reinject (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655082954EC; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:49:21 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at bahnhof.se (MF2) Received: from mf2.bahnhof.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mf2.bahnhof.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gNbt+40Qmsmi; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:49:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from exodia.localdomain (h-235-102.a149.priv.bahnhof.se [85.24.235.102]) by mf2.bahnhof.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3533450058; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:49:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from chopper.vpn.verona.se (DIR-655.a149.priv.bahnhof.se [192.168.200.86]) by exodia.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFD64E0007; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:48:58 +0100 (CET) From: joakim@verona.se To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs References: <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:48:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:30:23 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-Received-From: 213.80.101.11 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:49:26 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: > > While it might be an interesting feature to provide for future Elisp > packages, its immediate usefulness is much less obvious, so the kind of > compile-time linking model we use for things like libgnutls would not be > appropriate (e.g. Debian wouldn't want to add nacl as a dependency if > it's not actually used). > > OTOH that might be a good motivation to add support for dynamic loading > of extension libraries. I've been toying with the idea of using linking Guile to Emacs so as to access Guiles libffi integration in Emacs. Granted, if all you wanted was Emacs + libffi than Emacs + Guile + libffi would seem stupid. OTOH I think it would be a good project to nudge the two platforms closer. > > > Stefan -- Joakim Verona From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 16:08:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkMSL-0005sF-NN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:08:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32827) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkMSJ-0005s9-Pp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:08:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkMSE-0002xt-3u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:08:35 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53320) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkMSD-0002xl-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:08:30 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkMSB-00047R-AS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:08:27 +0100 Received: from ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net ([78.233.218.202]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:08:27 +0100 Received: from antoine.levitt by ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:08:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Antoine Levitt Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:08:10 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:08:36 -0000 09/01/12 21:41, Paul Michael Reilly > My curiosity peaked recently with the thread on NaCl support for > Emacs.  Not having a clue what NaCl was all about, I took to Google to > find out more.  And if I read it right, it is all about having a > HTML/Javascript/CSS wrapper around a C/C++ native code application > running in the browser. >  Very cool in its own right but simply awesome > if that wrapped code happens to be Emacs.  The NaCl Support for Emacs > discussion seems to be focused on security/library  (crypto) issues > which tend to make my brain hurt so a new thread seems appropriate to > discuss this notion of Emacs running in a Chrome tab.  For all I know > the current NaCl thread might be a totally different NaCl thing than > NativeClient. It is. NaCl is a crypto lib, see http://nacl.cr.yp.to/ > I raised this issue last year (Emacs in the Cloud) but I don't > recollect any mention of NativeClient at that time.  The notion of > opening up a new machine, installing Chrome (if it is not already > installed), heading off to the Chrome Web Store to get the latest NaCl > version of Gnu Emacs, and then using an Emacs tab to edit files/run > shells/install ELPA packages is very appealing to me. > > Is anyone aware of technical "gotchas" that make this notion > unrealizable by a mere mortal in just one lifetime? Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? Why would it be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 16:56:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkND3-0004Go-Uc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:56:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43874) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkND1-0004GV-Ls for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:56:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkND0-0002sR-9p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:56:51 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:47375) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkND0-0002sB-4N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:56:50 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so5583182obc.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:56:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.162.70 with SMTP id xy6mr16578843obb.53.1326146209265; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.147.37 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:56:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:56:49 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) From: Paul Michael Reilly To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f83a931b9384804b61f7911 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:56:52 -0000 --e89a8f83a931b9384804b61f7911 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antoine Levitt wrote: Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? Why would it > be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway. > Window Managers? Maybe you missed my point. A little history: for years engineers from coast to coast (me on the East and Steve Yegge on the West) have primarily used two tools every day: Emacs and (some) Browser (Chrome for Steve and I). Steve once asked the pointed question: Wouldn't it be great if Emacs could browse (taking for granted that Emacs w3 doesn't count as a real browser) or a Browser could do what Emacs does? I answered the question with a definite Yes and posited that Emacs will never provide a real WWW browsing experience, at least not in our lifetime and not in Gnu Emacs' current implementation. So clearly that leaves Emacs to run inside the Browser. But this was clearly not a priority with the Brpwser developers so the two wonderful tools have lived apart lo these many years. With the advent of NativeClient, there is now a more likely path to realizing Emacs functionality inside a browser tab but that path could be filled with all kinds of roadside bombs that will make it impossible to get there from here. To me this means targeting Gnu Emacs to build on a "NativeClient" platform and thus producing a set of bits that will be found in an App Store like the Chrome Web Store. Another relevant piece of history: I tried using a ChromeBook device last year. Other than the fact that they were under powered and I could not run Emacs on them, it is a great model --- no machine maintenance, cheap, easy access to apps (lots of freely available software) and a very simple interface. Emacs in a tab would make a ChromeBook much more attractive. And Emacs in a tab would be able to leverage browser APIs to a much higher degree than we see in Emacs out of a tab. Now it might be the case that you don't see the point in a ChromeBook device or Chrome OS software model. If so you can take comfort in the fact that that probably puts you in a 90% category. But then, on the other hand, didn't IE own 90% of the browser market a short while ago? :-) -pmr --e89a8f83a931b9384804b61f7911 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antoine Levitt <= span dir=3D"ltr"><antoine.le= vitt@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? Why would it<= br> be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway.

Window Managers? =A0Maybe you missed my point.

A little history: for years engineers from coast to coast= (me on the East and Steve Yegge on the West) have primarily used two tools= every day: Emacs and (some) Browser (Chrome for Steve and I). =A0Steve onc= e asked the pointed question: Wouldn't it be great if Emacs could brows= e (taking for granted that Emacs w3 doesn't count as a real browser) or= a Browser could do what Emacs does? =A0I answered the question with a defi= nite Yes and posited that Emacs will never provide a real WWW browsing expe= rience, at least not in our lifetime and not in Gnu Emacs' current impl= ementation. =A0So clearly that leaves Emacs to run inside the Browser. =A0B= ut this was clearly not a priority with the Brpwser developers so the two w= onderful tools have lived apart lo these many years. =A0With the advent of = NativeClient, there is now a more likely path to realizing Emacs functional= ity inside a browser tab but that path could be filled with all kinds of ro= adside bombs that will make it impossible to get there from here. =A0To me = this means targeting Gnu Emacs to build on a "NativeClient" platf= orm and thus producing a set of bits that will be found in an App Store lik= e the Chrome Web Store.

Another relevant piece of history: =A0I tried using a C= hromeBook device last year. =A0Other than the fact that they were under pow= ered and I could not run Emacs on them, it is a great model --- no machine = maintenance, cheap, easy access to apps (lots of freely available software)= and a very simple interface. =A0Emacs in a tab would make a ChromeBook muc= h more attractive. =A0And Emacs in a tab would be able to leverage browser = APIs to a much higher degree than we see in Emacs out of a tab. =A0Now it m= ight be the case that you don't see the point in a ChromeBook device or= Chrome OS software model. =A0If so you can take comfort in the fact that t= hat probably puts you in a 90% category. =A0But then, on the other hand, di= dn't IE own 90% of the browser market a short while ago? :-)

-pmr

--e89a8f83a931b9384804b61f7911-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 17:23:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkNcl-0002D5-UQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57248) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNci-000295-JP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNch-0000z6-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:24 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:41081) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNch-0000yy-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:23 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q09MNMrf006717; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:23:22 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3EE46B4177; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:23:22 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:53:14 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4096=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4096> : streams <718243> : uri <1043805> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:23:25 -0000 > Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy > encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and > secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that > I already mentioned. Could be. There's no hard evidence for it yet. > I don't know how much work it would be to adapt NaCl through a custom > dynamic library or if it's better to make it part of the Emacs C tree. I don't want such a thing in the Emacs C tree. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 17:42:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkNv3-00064w-SB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:42:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46698) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNuv-00062A-IO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:42:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNus-0004bc-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:42:13 -0500 Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:43009) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkNus-0004bG-9N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:42:10 -0500 Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so2710287qcs.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:42:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=8GRhKuWilfNMJvcn1AazrzVZ46ikETDFrBgdNMJ1w0Y=; b=PzIzunrJ8+j7excIrafbOhVXdGQtoR67TwjfGr8FY+eqpR7wICueI0BQ7vT+nUcT2D mtd49ASfv7yYYLg0A4D1Bl27d4H6ZbmJlfIOroGJIRys/1/dol72BZnpsBwcLXJtUfJu 0kCa3vPISTZrNdF+xLDszwtPjBADxvoE7dIZQ= Received: by 10.229.76.202 with SMTP id d10mr6649325qck.21.1326148929194; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.174] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hm10sm9973836qab.12.2012.01.09.14.42.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:42:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:42:07 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <054F6D14-733F-4F22-A4F2-6AF1189D13A0@gmail.com> References: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> To: Paul Michael Reilly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:42:19 -0000 NativeClient is mostly about using the local processor to cut out server = round-trips for computations. Unfortunately for your idea, it doesn't = address the idea of the display engine; native client nexe's are = expected to use the browser's ui. There is some experimental 3D support = for nexe's via their alternative to NSAPI, but this is far enough away = from Emacs that a port would be complex. For your goals, I'd guess that = xembed (ala the xembed branch) is an easier practical path to a = prototype. This idea, like Tom Tromey's `rebase emacs on Common Lisp', Steve's = `Emacs in JavaScript', and the various Guilemacs attempts point out (yet = again) something I would not have guessed when I started with emacs ~22 = years ago: while the most technically valuable piece of Emacs (aside = from its freedom) is the extensive libraries of elisp code, the most = critical piece is actually the display engine. It's very hard to move = Emacs anywhere that the display engine won't go, and it seems to be very = hard to move the display engine. =20 *Chad P.S. This makes the herculean efforts of things like epoch, multi-tty, = and bidi all the more impressive. Thanks again to all the wonderful = emacs hackers out there.= From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 18:26:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkOc3-0005AS-7U for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:26:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55336) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkOc0-000585-HT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:26:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkObz-0002IS-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:26:44 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35587) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkObz-0002IM-3E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 18:26:43 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkObx-0002n7-Vw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:26:41 +0100 Received: from ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net ([78.233.218.202]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:26:41 +0100 Received: from antoine.levitt by ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:26:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Antoine Levitt Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:26:22 +0100 Lines: 59 Message-ID: <87mx9wxxsx.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ney92-7-78-233-218-202.fbx.proxad.net Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:26:45 -0000 09/01/12 22:56, Paul Michael Reilly > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antoine Levitt > wrote: > > Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? Why > would it > be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway. > > > Window Managers?  Maybe you missed my point. > > A little history: for years engineers from coast to coast (me on the > East and Steve Yegge on the West) have primarily used two tools every > day: Emacs and (some) Browser (Chrome for Steve and I). I suspect that is the case of most "serious" emacs users. >  Steve once asked the pointed question: Wouldn't it be great if Emacs > could browse (taking for granted that Emacs w3 doesn't count as a real > browser) or a Browser could do what Emacs does?  I answered the > question with a definite Yes I agree with that. > and posited that Emacs will never provide a real WWW > browsing experience, at least not in our lifetime and not in Gnu > Emacs' current implementation. I don't agree. Have you checked out the xembed branch, as well as the ezbl project? That seems like the way forward to me. >  So clearly that leaves Emacs to run > inside the Browser.  But this was clearly not a priority with the > Brpwser developers so the two wonderful tools have lived apart lo > these many years.  With the advent of NativeClient, there is now a > more likely path to realizing Emacs functionality inside a browser tab > but that path could be filled with all kinds of roadside bombs that > will make it impossible to get there from here.  To me this means > targeting Gnu Emacs to build on a "NativeClient" platform and thus > producing a set of bits that will be found in an App Store like the > Chrome Web Store. What I don't see is : how is it better to have emacs in a tab rather than emacs in a window? If emacs/browser communication is what you need, take a look at mozrepl. > Another relevant piece of history:  I tried using a ChromeBook device > last year.  Other than the fact that they were under powered and I > could not run Emacs on them, it is a great model --- no machine > maintenance, cheap, easy access to apps (lots of freely available > software) and a very simple interface.  Emacs in a tab would make a > ChromeBook much more attractive. If you can't run emacs on it, NaCl probably won't help. The way I see it, the solution is to open ChromeBook and such enough that the user can actually run its own programs. Then, plug in some minimalist "window manager" (a keybinding to toggle between chrome and emacs), and there you go. Easy to implement, no messy developments on emacs side, and works with every app (that can be ported to the platform). From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 19:38:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkPj0-0005sd-7H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:38:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkPiy-0005sX-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:38:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkPiw-0003Pz-Kn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:38:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57935) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkPiw-0003Pu-B1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:37:58 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkPiv-0001wH-Dq; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:37:57 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Semtex ISEC monarchist ARPA warfare threat BCCI ASO X-Ran: ",L~)@(f~u6MatHU}5-*DAL)1?e:?5N2Lw[mKL8DSmO`8Ua3/f.icPjDXX (Chong Yidong's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:07:47 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:38:01 -0000 Chong Yidong wrote: > In a few days, I will make the 23.3.90 pretest; during this brief > window, if anyone thinks there is another bug fix that ought to go > into 23.4, please promptly raise the issue on emacs-devel---but we > will be very conservative about allowing commits, in order to release > 23.4 ASAP. You might consider fixing http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8497 which could probably be done by just adding "i386" to cpp_undefs in configure.in. The only thing I am aware of that affecting is src/m/amdx86-64.h, when someone tries to compile a 32-bit exe on a 64-bit arch without specifying an explicit --build argument, but that does not seem important. And also allowing configure's --with-crt-dir argument to apply to all platforms, not just x86-64 and s390x (eg for Debian multiarch). Perhaps this is too invasive though. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 19:57:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQ1j-0002FU-Qe for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:57:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59024) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ1g-0002ED-Kq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:57:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ1f-0006VI-Oe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:57:20 -0500 Received: from smtp.getmail.no ([84.208.15.66]:32918) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ1d-0006Uw-L7; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:57:17 -0500 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain Received: from get-mta-scan01.get.basefarm.net ([10.5.16.4]) by get-mta-out01.get.basefarm.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-0.04 64bit (built Jun 20 2008)) with ESMTP id <0LXK00BQX5BF8IA0@get-mta-out01.get.basefarm.net>; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:57:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from get-mta-scan01.get.basefarm.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Email Security Appliance) with SMTP id 7694F1798F66_F0B8CEBB; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.getmail.no (unknown [10.5.16.4]) by get-mta-scan01.get.basefarm.net (Sophos Email Appliance) with ESMTP id 597E017961A7_F0B8CEBF; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from stories.gnus.org ([84.215.51.58]) by get-mta-in03.get.basefarm.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-0.04 64bit (built Jun 20 2008)) with ESMTP id <0LXK0085B5BF7500@get-mta-in03.get.basefarm.net>; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:57:15 +0100 (MET) From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs References: <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAJFBMVEWjZV6iiXfUz8zl4t+8 mnG7ppAxKzrNcmb5+Pf////+//7EvrcALFPLAAACZElEQVQ4jZXUMW/TQBgG4Euj0AovpFWjFk/x icrlpvpUlOCxDIwhhSpVlxCka6FLy0Bm0iVuF2ILy5+zIKEiRZ6wlciu/xx39jkNRRl4B0u+x/ed z7479GpJ0FJ4neVQJBTRCI+5v49eZmkUofQqD4IlycGJsBHpZEg1TOjuAozTvTBNwoZKpmRagGfx Hid74WEccUhJ2OHNTQ52wnuEmnaXplQjESF3APaxgKf/juwIGG441QdJRrGFII6hxv6ONb5tIn99 ACPGTMYwY6uMnT5iZxB83UVQDwBqZ8asZ7zo9r+w/gWzANcnCILxBFyqm5imp/3+ar/fA0gwH9yh zyyXYko1kwPPBygniZhgzI5dqlHSJhKcbkcAVFvbLm3cmBuphFGpJWb+fa2+5lLSobgo9U25/cRh 1K2eu4apUqMo5aInH8XglTfvd2isGZGEXq3yVnwS2EynR1REljqvvGtZAn6fTI8WP4iA7Ef94D2y Ry+2Aa4AFGWqZjBS78FXMzjLwJttFmBX1BVQSiUr/+fjHQlbQ2Xr8VAp6XIx2OavHNYvUffycxkn EvxUwkZ7RVmJyncFQLQjx3DKahnKoVUAnp1KSHtR0CPzBRfEtdX8dUdJwMjNHMbYEyLmEXR3x3gO tglCOPB2CJI5+CkIudgW7UBzmIhrDEKQItph0Lxf7VlVr5a1Q7CwDX5mV48/ygs4CwAe5dvBh2tH u87ufTkGeJpmajaNcGTQxa0GtmEMDLtBm4M5TGSth1sETfzh4v1kDrquP+fRZTDNYyB+IvCT4eDg IDsc2uJwEGcDWX6W/Df8AXZ55jJOY4n7AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Simple Minds's _Sparkle In The Rain_: "Waterfront" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:57:15 +0100 In-reply-to: <83vcokerap.fsf@gnu.org> Message-id: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (1203?) X-Received-From: 84.208.15.66 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:57:22 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > Why not libnettle? We already use it, albeit indirectly, because > latest versions of GnuTLS depend on it. The libnettle interface functions look sensible (from a very quick perusal of the examples): http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/nettle/nettle.html#Example So adding built-in support for encryption via libnettle in Emacs looks pretty sensible, I think. libnettle also does digests, which we already have via the secure_hash function/gnulib. Would it make long-term sense to make libnettle a prerequisite and drop all the gnulib digest code from the tree? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 19:59:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQ40-0002g7-3m for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:59:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55831) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ3y-0002g1-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:59:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ3w-0006vN-VV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:59:42 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48197) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ3w-0006vH-Mt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:59:40 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQ3v-0004od-EE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:59:39 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:59:39 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:59:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: fixing memory leaks before the pretest Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:59:22 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 53 Message-ID: <87obucid91.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87vcookmxd.fsf@gnu.org> <87lipjr5jk.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87sjjrzf6a.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:U+h6/1k+4VLGJ4343btgzxlHbuU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:59:43 -0000 On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:49:01 +0800 Chong Yidong wrote: CY> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> I am seeing memory growth on GNU/Linux with Gnus and GnuTLS that I >> don't see otherwise without Gnus, so it's faintly possible GnuTLS is >> not the determining factor. I have gone over the gnutls.c code and >> don't see where the GnuTLS glue could be leaking. CY> Do you have a test case for, e.g. creating and closing a few thousand CY> GnuTLS connections to a localhost running apache with https and seeing CY> if there is any memory impact? That would be the first thing I would CY> try, but I haven't had the time to look into this. I did, to a Dovecot IMAP server: #+begin_src lisp (require 'gnutls) (setq gnutls-log-level 10) (dotimes (n 10000) (setq buf (open-gnutls-stream "tls" "tls-buffer" "myserver" "imaps")) (delete-process buf)) #+end_src It took a while, but throughout the memory usage remained consistently at 331 MB virtual, 53 MB resident, 15 MB shared. Once the loop ended and Emacs calmed down, virtual was the same but resident dropped to 39 MB and shared was 4 MB. By comparison a new Emacs without any GnuTLS initialization is 320 MB virtual, 45 MB resident, and 14 MB shared. Based on that, I don't think there are obvious GnuTLS leaks in the connection open/close sequence. There may be leaks in the packet handling, though. I tried: #+begin_src lisp (dotimes (n 10000) (setq buf (open-gnutls-stream "tls" "tls-buffer" "myserver" "imaps")) (process-send-string buf "hello there") (sit-for 1) (message (with-current-buffer (process-buffer buf) (buffer-string))) (delete-process buf)) #+end_src and did not see a difference in the memory usage either (331/53/10). The IMAP server's greetings definitely came through, so the test was exercising the connection. This does not necessarily mean there are no leaks, but if they exist, they are probably not large or don't happen with the first few packets exchanged. I can look at this further... let me know what tests I should do. I'd like to prove there are leaks at all. Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 20:06:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQAY-0003fl-L8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53222) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQAW-0003fd-Id for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQAV-000839-81 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:28 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54863) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQAU-000835-Vc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:27 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQAS-0007bA-JS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:06:24 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:06:24 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:06:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:14 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 32 Message-ID: <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:lb3IkjvF2lT6WpVNxt2kqvjLu0A= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:06:29 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:23:22 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy >> encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and >> secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that >> I already mentioned. SM> Could be. There's no hard evidence for it yet. I listed three places I think could use it, how much harder does the evidence have to be? - auth-source's cache of file contents - EPA/EPG or something like it that does not rely on the external GPG utility - general ELisp storage of secret data You may disagree with these, but we've had discussions over the years of each of them and at least some people agreed with me that those would be useful. >> I don't know how much work it would be to adapt NaCl through a custom >> dynamic library or if it's better to make it part of the Emacs C tree. SM> I don't want such a thing in the Emacs C tree. Understood, and as I said libnettle is a better fit as it's already brought in by GnuTLS. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 20:31:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQYG-0005oo-RM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:31:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38757) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQYD-0005mt-Og for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQY9-0003Rx-3z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:57 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:41774) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQY8-0003Rb-Ll for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:52 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0A1Up4r029111; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 20:30:51 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id AB7B858D84; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 20:30:48 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:06:14 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4096=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4096> : streams <718288> : uri <1043881> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:30:59 -0000 >>> Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy >>> encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and >>> secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that >>> I already mentioned. SM> Could be. There's no hard evidence for it yet. > I listed three places I think could use it, how much harder does the > evidence have to be? > - auth-source's cache of file contents > - EPA/EPG or something like it that does not rely on the external GPG > utility > - general ELisp storage of secret data I don't think Emacs should reinvent every wheel. GPG does this job well and using it means that those files can be decrypted without Emacs. I'm sure there are cases where doing the encryption in Emacs can make sense, but I'd first like to see actual code (aka "hard evidence"). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 20:43:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQkO-0006uq-Tg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60360) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQkL-0006mf-9F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQkJ-0005Mb-Un for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:29 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42104) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQkJ-0005MM-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:27 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQkI-00070z-Ff for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:43:26 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:43:26 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:43:26 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:12 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 42 Message-ID: <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:IoqfScI+sT8MWGV2c+8soRn+hyE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:43:30 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:48 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy >>>> encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and >>>> secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that >>>> I already mentioned. SM> Could be. There's no hard evidence for it yet. >> I listed three places I think could use it, how much harder does the >> evidence have to be? >> - auth-source's cache of file contents >> - EPA/EPG or something like it that does not rely on the external GPG utility >> - general ELisp storage of secret data SM> I don't think Emacs should reinvent every wheel. GPG does this job well SM> and using it means that those files can be decrypted without Emacs. Calling out to an external process is less secure than using built-in encryption primitives. So while in general you're right, in this case I'll respectfully disagree. It may be convenient but it's not secure. SM> I'm sure there are cases where doing the encryption in Emacs can make SM> sense, but I'd first like to see actual code (aka "hard evidence"). Argh. The auth-source cache is already implemented as a hack, is that hard enough evidence? Quoting the relevant bit from `auth-source-netrc-parse': #+begin_src lisp ;; cache all netrc files (used to be just .gpg files) ;; Store the contents of the file heavily encrypted in memory. ;; (note for the irony-impaired: they are just obfuscated) (aput 'auth-source-netrc-cache file (list :mtime (nth 5 (file-attributes file)) :secret (lexical-let ((v (mapcar '1+ (buffer-string)))) (lambda () (apply 'string (mapcar '1- v)))))) #+end_src Similarly auth-source.el returns passwords in a `lexical-let' wrapper so they can't be leaked into the logs, they have to be evaluated, but it doesn't attempt to obfuscate them like the code above. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 20:50:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQqr-0008CX-0P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:50:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQqo-0008CJ-Ng for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:50:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQqn-0006K2-J9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:50:10 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47676) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQqn-0006Jl-AR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:50:09 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQql-0001nw-EH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:50:07 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:50:07 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:50:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:45:59 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 26 Message-ID: <87lipggwiw.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87boqcn76b.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87wr90kag3.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:xNaDI03rfh7jeGGMMmpJ0Rofbgw= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:50:12 -0000 On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 19:21:36 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> 2012/1/9 Ted Zlatanov : >> On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:48:58 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: >> CM> NaCl's design goals, implementation and patent cleanness make it attractive CM> to anyone who's had to make use of any kind of cipher functionality. >> >> I think it makes sense to provide a GNU ELPA package with NaCl, >> absolutely. But it's provided as a static library and I don't know how >> to convert it to dynamically loaded, and Emacs doesn't have facilities >> to load arbitrary dynamic libraries at runtime. The rest (packaging, >> on-activation compile) I can handle in the package itself. If you want >> to help out... or anyone else... let me know off-list. CM> Does wrapping the .a file in a dynamic lib make sense? If you could point me to a tutorial on this, I'd appreciate it, but I think we're too far off-topic for emacs-devel. If anyone else is interested in packaging NaCl on the GNU ELPA, let me know directly. Joakim's suggestion of bringing in libffi is good, but that's a lot of work! I hope someone is interested in doing it. Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 20:55:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkQvc-00013s-SM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:55:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41694) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQvb-00012L-2M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:55:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQvX-0008Mw-E8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:55:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:58708) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQvW-0008M4-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:55:03 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkQvV-0003xR-E3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:55:01 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:55:01 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:55:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:54:48 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:3eTajfEpYbA9qDfb4+mpky2FMaU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:55:08 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:30:48 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: > >>>>> Many places in the Emacs core (C and ELisp) could use a fast easy >>>>> encryption library for arbitrary data that supports public and >>>>> secret-key encryption, in addition to EPA/EPG that >>>>> I already mentioned. > SM> Could be. There's no hard evidence for it yet. >>> I listed three places I think could use it, how much harder does the >>> evidence have to be? >>> - auth-source's cache of file contents >>> - EPA/EPG or something like it that does not rely on the external GPG utility >>> - general ELisp storage of secret data > > SM> I don't think Emacs should reinvent every wheel. GPG does this job well > SM> and using it means that those files can be decrypted without Emacs. > > Calling out to an external process is less secure than using built-in > encryption primitives. So while in general you're right, in this case > I'll respectfully disagree. It may be convenient but it's not secure. probably naive Q but : this library encrypts/decrypts identically to the external gpg? e.g a file I encrypt with gpg can be read using this new proposal and vice versa? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 21:34:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkRXq-0006R4-2x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:34:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41167) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRXm-0006QE-U7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:34:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRXl-0006aO-Us for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:34:34 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50413) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRXl-0006aI-Ke for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:34:33 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRXj-00034W-L6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:34:31 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:34:31 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:34:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: libnettle for Emacs (was: NaCl support for Emacs) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:34:20 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 12 Message-ID: <871ur8guab.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:mqVY2NpHu84S+ZBH2taZjvvZK/0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:34:36 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:54:48 +0100 Richard Riley wrote: RR> probably naive Q but : this library [libnettle] encrypts/decrypts RR> identically to the external gpg? e.g a file I encrypt with gpg can RR> be read using this new proposal and vice versa? Nope, libnettle is not compatible with GPG. The intention is not to cooperate with GPG (which EPA/EPG can already do) but to have an internal solution to Emacs' encryption needs when the producer and the consumer are both Emacs (not necessarily the same process). Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 21:43:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkRgS-00089D-MB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:43:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54780) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRgP-00088j-LW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:43:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRgJ-0000XO-PI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:43:29 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47270) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRgJ-0000X4-Fc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:43:23 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRgH-0006ZV-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:43:21 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:43:21 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:43:21 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: libnettle for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:43:07 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871ur8guab.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:f//KF/f+rWgyUBAUhhC7/eGgQbM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:43:30 -0000 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:54:48 +0100 Richard Riley wrote: > > RR> probably naive Q but : this library [libnettle] encrypts/decrypts > RR> identically to the external gpg? e.g a file I encrypt with gpg can > RR> be read using this new proposal and vice versa? > > Nope, libnettle is not compatible with GPG. The intention is not to > cooperate with GPG (which EPA/EPG can already do) but to have an > internal solution to Emacs' encryption needs when the producer and the > consumer are both Emacs (not necessarily the same process). Ah, so its an addition. Fair enough. Well so long as gpg stays supported then. gpg stuff is used all over the desktop for mail encryption, doc encryption and handled in the keyring managers for things like gnome and cached using stuff like gpg-agent as you'll know better than me ;) epa/epg is used in stuff like org-crypt so all my :crypt: entries are encrypted using my gpg keys. pani over ;) regards,r . From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 22:02:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkRyN-0002LF-RX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:02:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52679) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRyK-0002Jt-Sa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:02:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRyJ-0003tV-Gw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:02:00 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:34574) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRyJ-0003sf-Bh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:01:59 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RkRyD-0005Qr-20 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:01:53 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0BAA1C.5020804@dancol.org> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:01:48 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs References: <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> In-Reply-To: <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF785F9065AB9283F32DF2E32" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:02:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF785F9065AB9283F32DF2E32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/9/12 5:43 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > SM> I don't think Emacs should reinvent every wheel. GPG does this job= well > SM> and using it means that those files can be decrypted without Emacs.= >=20 > Calling out to an external process is less secure than using built-in > encryption primitives. So while in general you're right, in this case > I'll respectfully disagree. It may be convenient but it's not secure. If an attacker can read the bytes sent over a pipe between your Emacs and its GPG subprocess, you've already lost. I'm not sure what reasonable definition of "secure" you meant to use here. --------------enigF785F9065AB9283F32DF2E32 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8Lqh8ACgkQ17c2LVA10VsQ2QCg5yVihTBY2FtQ54zFbuplpPtH TGAAoMjLh2kSs4L8J3CEuUeJj+qwMPO8 =hqav -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF785F9065AB9283F32DF2E32-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 22:21:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkSH9-0005Qc-Ct for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45387) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkSH7-0005QW-6f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkSH6-0007Ag-BO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:25 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:50504) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkSH6-0007AW-1I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:24 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAMitC09FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABDrFWBBoFyAQEEAVYoCwswBBIUGA2IMbZiiHcCgxgEiDmaVIRS X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,484,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="155963696" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 09 Jan 2012 22:21:20 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id EC8DE6610B; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 22:21:19 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:43:12 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:21:26 -0000 > Argh. The auth-source cache is already implemented as a hack, is that > hard enough evidence? Quoting the relevant bit from > `auth-source-netrc-parse': > #+begin_src lisp > ;; cache all netrc files (used to be just .gpg files) > ;; Store the contents of the file heavily encrypted in memory. > ;; (note for the irony-impaired: they are just obfuscated) > (aput 'auth-source-netrc-cache file > (list :mtime (nth 5 (file-attributes file)) > :secret (lexical-let ((v (mapcar '1+ (buffer-string)))) > (lambda () (apply 'string (mapcar '1- v)))))) > #+end_src Not only I'm not worried about that, but I'm not sure libnettle (or any other encryption library) would help you fix the underlying problem: Emacs needs to be able to recover the password for later use anyway, so anything we do can only ever be obfuscation, AFAIK. Maybe there's some clever way to do better, but again, for lack of hard evidence I'm unconvinced. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 09 23:08:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkT18-0001j3-TS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:08:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43670) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkT15-0001fj-88 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:08:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkT14-0006QI-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:08:55 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:33359) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkT13-0006QE-TJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:08:54 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-248-93.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.248.93]:24173 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkT12-0007fy-VO; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:08:53 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:08:46 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:37:57 -0500") Message-ID: <874nw4rygh.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:08:56 -0000 Glenn Morris writes: > You might consider fixing > > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8497 > > which could probably be done by just adding "i386" to cpp_undefs in > configure.in. The only thing I am aware of that affecting is > src/m/amdx86-64.h, when someone tries to compile a 32-bit exe on a > 64-bit arch without specifying an explicit --build argument, but that > does not seem important. This sounds desirable, but the discussion in that bug is not as concrete as I'd like. What's the specific patch you're taking about? BTW, would you mind updating the copyright years on the emacs-23 branch? Thanks. (No need to worry about merging; we won't be doing any emacs-23 to trunk merges anymore, only cherry-picking fixes from trunk to emacs-23) From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 00:31:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkUJE-00014p-8G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45389) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkUJB-00011w-Bo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkUJA-0001Mg-DI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:34575) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkUJA-0001Mc-AF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:40 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkUJ8-0000c8-PU; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:38 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris Subject: Changes in epaths.in X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:31:42 -0000 2012-01-10 Glenn Morris * epaths.in (PATH_LOADSEARCH, PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH, PATH_EXEC) (PATH_DATA, PATH_DOC): Update the template values to be closer to their typical values these days. Is it really wise to make changes in basic Emacs configuration during a pretest? E.g., the change to PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH looks non trivial to me, and I cannot immediately assess its effects (if you can, I would suggest to at least put it in writing in the ChangeLog entry). This isn't a bugfix, is it? If so, can it wait? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 01:28:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkVCd-0006ij-Nu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:28:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40437) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVCb-0006hO-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:28:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVCa-0001UX-Ot for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:28:57 -0500 Received: from mail.dev.rtsoft.ru ([213.79.90.226]:42681) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVCa-0001UN-HE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:28:56 -0500 Received: (qmail 18082 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2012 06:28:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.5.146?) (192.168.1.70) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 06:28:52 -0000 Message-ID: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:29:44 +0400 From: Dmitry Antipov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Some obsolete/unused/garbage things around window code? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 213.79.90.226 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:28:58 -0000 1) last_mark_x and last_mark_y fields of 'struct window' aren't used anywhere except initialization in make_window - is it reasonable to drop them at all? 2) What's an idea behind sequence_number of window objects? It's initialized within make_window and make_parent_window, but used only in printing code. Dmitry From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 02:11:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkVsB-0002eV-1o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:11:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39817) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVs6-0002XD-61 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:11:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVs5-0008LH-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:11:50 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:65100) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVs4-0008LD-Rh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:11:49 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so6075432obc.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:11:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.226.6 with SMTP id ro6mr17385016obc.3.1326179507969; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.147.37 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:11:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <054F6D14-733F-4F22-A4F2-6AF1189D13A0@gmail.com> References: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> <054F6D14-733F-4F22-A4F2-6AF1189D13A0@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:11:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) From: Paul Michael Reilly To: chad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462f887b1eb704b6273a62 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:11:51 -0000 --f46d04462f887b1eb704b6273a62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Chad, this is an excellent reply. Thanks, -pmr On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, chad wrote: > NativeClient is mostly about using the local processor to cut out server > round-trips for computations. Unfortunately for your idea, it doesn't > address the idea of the display engine; native client nexe's are expected > to use the browser's ui. There is some experimental 3D support for nexe's > via their alternative to NSAPI, but this is far enough away from Emacs that > a port would be complex. For your goals, I'd guess that xembed (ala the > xembed branch) is an easier practical path to a prototype. > > This idea, like Tom Tromey's `rebase emacs on Common Lisp', Steve's `Emacs > in JavaScript', and the various Guilemacs attempts point out (yet again) > something I would not have guessed when I started with emacs ~22 years ago: > while the most technically valuable piece of Emacs (aside from its freedom) > is the extensive libraries of elisp code, the most critical piece is > actually the display engine. It's very hard to move Emacs anywhere that > the display engine won't go, and it seems to be very hard to move the > display engine. > > *Chad > > P.S. This makes the herculean efforts of things like epoch, multi-tty, and > bidi all the more impressive. Thanks again to all the wonderful emacs > hackers out there. --f46d04462f887b1eb704b6273a62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chad, this is an excellent reply. =A0Thanks,

-pmr
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, chad <yandros@gmail.com>= wrote:
NativeClient is mostly about using the local= processor to cut out server round-trips for computations. =A0Unfortunately= for your idea, it doesn't address the idea of the display engine; nati= ve client nexe's are expected to use the browser's ui. =A0There is = some experimental 3D support for nexe's via their alternative to NSAPI,= but this is far enough away from Emacs that a port would be complex. =A0Fo= r your goals, I'd guess that xembed (ala the xembed branch) is an easie= r practical path to a prototype.

This idea, like Tom Tromey's `rebase emacs on Common Lisp', Steve&#= 39;s `Emacs in JavaScript', and the various Guilemacs attempts point ou= t (yet again) something I would not have guessed when I started with emacs = ~22 years ago: while the most technically valuable piece of Emacs (aside fr= om its freedom) is the extensive libraries of elisp code, the most critical= piece is actually the display engine. =A0It's very hard to move Emacs = anywhere that the display engine won't go, and it seems to be very hard= to move the display engine.

*Chad

P.S. This makes the herculean efforts of things like epoch, multi-tty, and = bidi all the more impressive. =A0Thanks again to all the wonderful emacs ha= ckers out there.

--f46d04462f887b1eb704b6273a62-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 02:19:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkVzr-0004Qv-Nk for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:19:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49400) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVzp-0004O2-0A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:19:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVzn-0001ED-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:19:48 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:65133) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkVzn-0001E4-Nn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:19:47 -0500 Received: by obcwo8 with SMTP id wo8so6083659obc.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:19:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.43.10 with SMTP id s10mr17707309obl.43.1326179986994; Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.147.37 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:19:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87mx9wxxsx.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87boqc1t51.fsf@gmail.com> <87mx9wxxsx.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:19:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs in a Chrome Tab? (related to NaCl Support for Emacs discussion) From: Paul Michael Reilly To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044631160877c904b6275775 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:19:49 -0000 --f46d044631160877c904b6275775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Antoine Levitt wrote: > 09/01/12 22:56, Paul Michael Reilly > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antoine Levitt > > wrote: > > > > Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? Why > > would it > > be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway. > > > > > > Window Managers? Maybe you missed my point. > >... > > and posited that Emacs will never provide a real WWW > > browsing experience, at least not in our lifetime and not in Gnu > > Emacs' current implementation. > > I don't agree. Have you checked out the xembed branch, as well as the > ezbl project? That seems like the way forward to me. > No, not yet but it would appear this xembed approach has merit. Thanks, -pmr --f46d044631160877c904b6275775 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Antoine Levitt <= span dir=3D"ltr"><antoine.le= vitt@gmail.com> wrote:
09/01/12 22:56, Paul Michael Reilly
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Antoine Levitt
> <antoine.levitt@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 Isn't that an issue to be tackled by the window managers? = Why
> =A0 =A0 would it
> =A0 =A0 be emacs-specific? I'm not sure I see the point anyway. >
>
> Window Managers? =A0Maybe you missed my point.
>...
> and posited that Emacs will never provide a real WWW
> browsing experience, at least not in our lifetime and not in Gnu
> Emacs' current implementation.

I don't agree. Have you checked out the xembed branch, as well as= the
ezbl project? That seems like the way forward to me.
<= br>
No, not yet but it would appear this xembed approach has meri= t.

Thanks,

-pmr

--f46d044631160877c904b6275775-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 02:51:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkWUL-0001QR-E9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:51:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56998) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWUI-0001P1-J8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:51:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWUE-00079E-ID for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:51:18 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:38196) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWUE-00079A-7P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:51:14 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2012 07:51:08 -0000 Received: from p4FC77664.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO turtle.gmx.de) [79.199.118.100] by mail.gmx.net (mp062) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 08:51:08 +0100 X-Authenticated: #28250155 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19o4aAxu69oeWGKu/6luhVhvh4kTg+dtfi5uufYkF f3DIVhP7pDqXb3 Received: by turtle.gmx.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 15E903F48B; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:51:05 +0100 (CET) From: Sven Joachim To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:51:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:07:47 +0800") Message-ID: <87lipg807r.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:19 -0000 The following patch (committed on the trunk in revision 100042) is necessary for the "--with-crt-dir=" configure option to actually work and let Emacs build on current Debian/Ubuntu systems: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- === modified file 'src/s/gnu-linux.h' --- src/s/gnu-linux.h 2011-01-02 23:50:46 +0000 +++ src/s/gnu-linux.h 2011-07-27 14:36:13 +0000 @@ -168,7 +168,7 @@ along with GNU Emacs. If not, see 8--- See http://bugs.debian.org/629567 for details. Cheers, Sven From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 03:11:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkWnz-0004a9-Gi for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40907) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWnw-0004a3-U8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWnw-00024v-17 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36841) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWnv-00024p-SS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:35 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkWno-0004uH-55; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:28 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Changes in epaths.in References: X-Spook: Adriatic Bellcore airframe ICE USCOI fissionable condor X-Ran: ?dV$Ozo|j//P*#Nt%eVo|f-2:+fk-3TIa4x?ncjs7NYl*B)7z$OjJ;E;/X%OGl^;OOa>iB X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:31:38 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:11:38 -0000 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Is it really wise to make changes in basic Emacs configuration during > a pretest? E.g., the change to PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH looks non trivial > to me, and I cannot immediately assess its effects (if you can, I > would suggest to at least put it in writing in the ChangeLog entry). The effects are zero, because those values are not used for anything. Configure changes every one of them to the actual values. The pre-defined values are essentially comments. Of the platforms that do not use configure, MS Windows uses nt/paths.h instead, and the msdos build (presumably) uses sed to edit all the values it cares about. Oh, I see it does not change PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH, which was the only non-absolute value. sed4.inp should probably set it back to ../lisp. POSIX platforms have been using an absolute value for years (at least a decade I think), so the previous comment about it being ../lisp was misleading. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 03:40:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkXG1-0005oY-9y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53496) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXFv-0005ns-9Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXFq-0006X6-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:31 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXFq-0006X1-QH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:26 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXFq-0003ms-Dn; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:40:26 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Dmitry Antipov In-reply-to: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Antipov on Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:29:44 +0400) Subject: Re: Some obsolete/unused/garbage things around window code? References: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:40:35 -0000 > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:29:44 +0400 > From: Dmitry Antipov > > 1) last_mark_x and last_mark_y fields of 'struct window' aren't used anywhere > except initialization in make_window - is it reasonable to drop them at all? Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see it used even in Emacs 18.59. Looks like it never was used. Maybe Richard will remember something about it (or we could ask Jim Blandy ;-). If I'm right, it should have been deleted many moons ago. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 04:00:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkXZL-0001Nc-Fw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44638) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXZE-0001Jy-DQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXZA-0000WV-6u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37647) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXZA-0000WR-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:24 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkXZ6-0007YP-7b; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:20 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Changes in epaths.in References: X-Spook: MD4 Baranyi INS BLU-114/B halcon interception MDA counter X-Ran: cALPmMqA*qk0x-8'f*o!f'dk'A/5$;47j.{:\=g0h`#}7B[Ey"a[[^#1?bfHzHC|@6;@j9 X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:11:27 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:00:34 -0000 I put it back, but I do suggest you add an entry to sed4.inp anyway, something like /^#define *PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH/s/".*"/"..\/lisp"/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 04:44:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkYFO-00031V-D4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:44:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39049) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYFH-0002uw-7G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:44:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYFD-0006xF-AT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:43:55 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38428) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYFD-0006xB-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:43:51 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYFC-0006rU-Md; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:43:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:43:50 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris In-reply-to: (message from Glenn Morris on Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:19 -0500) Subject: Re: Changes in epaths.in References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:44:01 -0000 > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:19 -0500 > > > I put it back Thanks. > but I do suggest you add an entry to sed4.inp anyway, something like > > /^#define *PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH/s/".*"/"..\/lisp"/ Will do when I have time. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 05:01:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkYWM-000691-W9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42441) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYWG-00068s-7S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYWB-0000gK-3z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38666) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYWB-0000gG-0b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:23 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYWA-0007l4-TE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:01:22 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500) Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:01:33 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500 > > I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library > for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. There is info on NaCl here: > > http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html Call me weird or old-fashioned, but that library's build procedure looks odd, to say the least. It's as if Make and Autoconf never existed: the entire build is done by a series of shell scripts, all of them called `do', which have specific knowledge about several platforms hardcoded into them (do the developers really intend to maintain all this mess?). On top of that, the top-level `do' modifies PATH and LD_LIBRAY_PATH (what? why??) as it sees fit, and redirects all its output to a log file, so you basically run blind, like in bad old DOS days (can you say "tail -f"?). Also, the scripts run all kinds of non-standard tools and compiler switches, and although they seem to ignore the resulting errors, how would J.R. Hacker become confident that the build succeeded and she can use the results? E.g., what do you get out of this snippet of the build log: === Tue Jan 10 03:28:17 EST 2012 === checking gcc -m32 -fomit-frame-pointer /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc collect2: ld returned 1 exit status Is it good? is it bad? can I trust the results? Finally, there's no Makefile anywhere in sight, and no installation script that I could find. Bye-bye, "make install-strip", hello manual installation. Sorry, but I wouldn't touch such "software" with a 3-mile stick. Not for Emacs, anyway. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 05:20:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkYoX-0002JM-LZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:20:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYoR-0002Dh-Ml for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:20:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYoL-0003lN-Ep for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:20:15 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:50391) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkYoL-0003kf-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:20:09 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2012 10:20:07 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-238.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.238]) [62.47.50.238] by mail.gmx.net (mp034) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 11:20:07 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/k++8o4vPkH4xDG5hcR0GrgwgEmvp6VCnFljGCU9 UE6xvbi3bIrddi Message-ID: <4F0C10D4.2000908@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:20:04 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dmitry Antipov Subject: Re: Some obsolete/unused/garbage things around window code? References: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:20:19 -0000 > 1) last_mark_x and last_mark_y fields of 'struct window' aren't used > anywhere > except initialization in make_window - is it reasonable to drop them > at all? Yes. > 2) What's an idea behind sequence_number of window objects? It's > initialized > within make_window and make_parent_window, but used only in printing > code. How else would we identify windows in printed notation? BTW I plan to make sequence numbers available in Elisp for 24.2. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 05:43:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkZAn-0004oh-Bn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:43:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60649) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZAk-0004oa-TI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:43:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZAf-0007Re-9F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:43:18 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:60867) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZAe-0007RY-VF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:43:13 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2012 10:43:10 -0000 Received: from p57BB96AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO detlef.gmx.de) [87.187.150.171] by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 11:43:10 +0100 X-Authenticated: #3708877 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18ruwEOtWkrRyWSbdAVOeeKtz5iGNFCaAn90Ya1O8 cdy+HAECEP42dE From: Michael Albinus To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Planned incompatible change in `dbus-send-signal' Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:42:56 +0100 Message-ID: <87ipkj6dov.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:43:19 -0000 Hi, I'm preparing changes in dbus.el for inclusion in Emacs 24.2. One change would be to support unicast signals as introduced in D-Bus 1.5, see . As a consequence, the semantics of the `dbus-send-signal' argument SERVICE would change. Until now, it is specified merely for orthogonal reasons, and shall describe the D-Bus service name the signal is sent from. All signals are broadcast signals. After my intended change, a SERVICE value `nil' would mean a broadcast signal, and a string value would mean the target service of a unicast signal. That's an incompatible change. Would it be OK to change it this way? I've searched over the net, and I've found just one instance where `dbus-send-signal' is used (in pida_emacs_dbus.el, see ). Would it be necessary to add a compatibility flag somewhere in dbus.el, and (if yes) how? Best regards, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 05:46:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkZE3-0006Gf-Ll for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:46:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45185) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZDs-00069p-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:46:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZDm-00087V-RI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:46:32 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:47025) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZDh-00086K-To; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:46:22 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so882326iaf.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:46:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uBwbd+EL972daVrWac/nZ/JydvfozWaG+acGmh1BrO8=; b=tkury/bbh3TdD6+5QR41LDI63PV3nsN4MIxXoMGRmshxRkkEUOlc0MAibbsczqqG4q D0+PJn7nF1kFby3aECNsn/q2PkvlA5HJyYyXV3je20EntjsrPvCJIjxj77aWr1XoG8TQ QTMlh9iQTyt49JynsdgxCbdzrnKVNhjYOmijU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.43.130 with SMTP id uc2mr21808232icb.35.1326192380965; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:46:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:46:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) From: Carsten Mattner To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:46:40 -0000 On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:26:21 -0500 >> >> I'm interested in bringing in support for the NaCl cryptographic library >> for Emacs, after 24.1 is out. =A0There is info on NaCl here: >> >> http://nacl.cr.yp.to/index.html > > Call me weird or old-fashioned, but that library's build procedure > looks odd, to say the least. > > It's as if Make and Autoconf never existed: the entire build is done > by a series of shell scripts, all of them called `do', which have > specific knowledge about several platforms hardcoded into them (do the > developers really intend to maintain all this mess?). > > On top of that, the top-level `do' modifies PATH and LD_LIBRAY_PATH > (what? =A0why??) as it sees fit, and redirects all its output to a log > file, so you basically run blind, like in bad old DOS days (can you > say "tail -f"?). > > Also, the scripts run all kinds of non-standard tools and compiler > switches, and although they seem to ignore the resulting errors, how > would J.R. Hacker become confident that the build succeeded and she > can use the results? =A0E.g., what do you get out of this snippet of the > build log: > > =A0=3D=3D=3D Tue Jan 10 03:28:17 EST 2012 =3D=3D=3D checking gcc -m32 -fo= mit-frame-pointer > =A0/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.3= /libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc > =A0/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.3= /libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc > =A0/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc > =A0collect2: ld returned 1 exit status > > Is it good? is it bad? can I trust the results? > > Finally, there's no Makefile anywhere in sight, and no installation > script that I could find. =A0Bye-bye, "make install-strip", hello manual > installation. > > Sorry, but I wouldn't touch such "software" with a 3-mile stick. =A0Not > for Emacs, anyway. For better or worse Dan's software is packaged and licensed as he sees fit. It is somtimes unconventional, but is something which can be handled to get at the good stuff within :). People tolerate JavaScript to get stuff done. We tolerate C as a (limited overhead) porting layer between us and the machine. Some reading material: http://cr.yp.to/redo.html https://github.com/apenwarr/redo http://thedjbway.b0llix.net/future.html From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 06:00:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkZR4-0008Rn-Bj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:00:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45411) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZQw-0008AI-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:00:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZQr-0001kx-R0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:00:02 -0500 Received: from mail.dev.rtsoft.ru ([213.79.90.226]:60219) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkZQr-0001kN-26 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 05:59:57 -0500 Received: (qmail 29563 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2012 10:59:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.5.146?) (192.168.1.70) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 10:59:54 -0000 Message-ID: <4F0C1A5D.7000205@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:00:45 +0400 From: Dmitry Antipov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Some obsolete/unused/garbage things around window code? References: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> <4F0C10D4.2000908@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <4F0C10D4.2000908@gmx.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 213.79.90.226 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:00:08 -0000 On 01/10/2012 02:20 PM, martin rudalics wrote: > > 2) What's an idea behind sequence_number of window objects? It's > > initialized > > within make_window and make_parent_window, but used only in printing > > code. > > How else would we identify windows in printed notation? BTW I plan to > make sequence numbers available in Elisp for 24.2. For frames, C pointer value of 'struct frame' is used, i.e.: ... sprintf (buf, " %p", XFRAME (obj)); ... Why it should be done in a different way for windows? Dmitry From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 06:46:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rka9g-0002fM-3c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:46:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36953) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rka9W-0002cj-3r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:46:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rka9U-0000va-UG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:46:06 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42003) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rka9U-0000vS-N0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:46:04 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rka9Q-0003Ns-MB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:46:00 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:46:00 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:46:00 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:45:49 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 17 Message-ID: <87ty43g4r6.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0BAA1C.5020804@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:jF+afbhg3qMUgnCdV1bDVjzCm8w= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:46:14 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:01:48 -0800 Daniel Colascione wrote: DC> On 1/9/12 5:43 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: SM> I don't think Emacs should reinvent every wheel. GPG does this job well SM> and using it means that those files can be decrypted without Emacs. >> >> Calling out to an external process is less secure than using built-in >> encryption primitives. So while in general you're right, in this case >> I'll respectfully disagree. It may be convenient but it's not secure. DC> If an attacker can read the bytes sent over a pipe between your Emacs DC> and its GPG subprocess, you've already lost. I'm not sure what DC> reasonable definition of "secure" you meant to use here. I'm being polite. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 06:54:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkaHh-0003PD-Rr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:54:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46651) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkaHa-0003Ma-S0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:54:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkaHZ-0002Ya-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:54:26 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59934) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkaHZ-0002YH-M8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:54:25 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkaHW-0007lP-Cu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:54:22 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:54:22 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:54:22 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:54:04 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 37 Message-ID: <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:jbSYHHJU/eoK0+sjrw79RPvwvT4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:54:32 -0000 On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:19 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Argh. The auth-source cache is already implemented as a hack, is that >> hard enough evidence? Quoting the relevant bit from >> `auth-source-netrc-parse': >> #+begin_src lisp >> ;; cache all netrc files (used to be just .gpg files) >> ;; Store the contents of the file heavily encrypted in memory. >> ;; (note for the irony-impaired: they are just obfuscated) >> (aput 'auth-source-netrc-cache file >> (list :mtime (nth 5 (file-attributes file)) >> :secret (lexical-let ((v (mapcar '1+ (buffer-string)))) >> (lambda () (apply 'string (mapcar '1- v)))))) >> #+end_src SM> Not only I'm not worried about that, but I'm not sure libnettle (or any SM> other encryption library) would help you fix the underlying problem: SM> Emacs needs to be able to recover the password for later use anyway, so SM> anything we do can only ever be obfuscation, AFAIK. Maybe there's some SM> clever way to do better, but again, for lack of hard evidence SM> I'm unconvinced. With true encryption with libnettle, we can encrypt the secret in memory, on the wire, and on disk so a casual attacker doesn't have the chance to grab it. This should hook into the Lisp object printer, for instance, so it's effortless to print and read encrypted objects. I'm worried about treating obfuscation as "good enough" security. That has a history of backfiring. Would it convince you to show an attack that succeeds with obfuscation but fails with true encryption? I know Emacs is not designed with security in mind. We have to start somewhere; this will at least harden the outer shell. You may not be worried about it, but I am. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 07:15:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkabi-0007dM-CG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:15:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52474) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkabY-0007ZC-Tl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:15:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkabT-0006OG-26 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:15:04 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:43529) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkabS-0006O4-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:14:59 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2012 12:14:56 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-238.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.238]) [62.47.50.238] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 13:14:56 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+ArzZAnxaA1zmwnIBnwvcByh8/mBKyQKG2QreHM+ mIOpsS/Ows5j0q Message-ID: <4F0C2BBE.7000202@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:14:54 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dmitry Antipov Subject: Re: Some obsolete/unused/garbage things around window code? References: <4F0BDAD8.6030201@yandex.ru> <4F0C10D4.2000908@gmx.at> <4F0C1A5D.7000205@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <4F0C1A5D.7000205@yandex.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:15:12 -0000 > For frames, C pointer value of 'struct frame' is used, i.e.: > ... > sprintf (buf, " %p", XFRAME (obj)); Which is awkward and usually complemented by the buffer shown in the frame's selected window which hardly improves anything. > Why it should be done in a different way for windows? Comparing two sequence numbers, you can always tell which window is older. And you usually can identify all windows coming from one and the same session. So you can use number when saving window states to disk. Finally, using sequence numbers we can replay a sequence of window creation/deletion functions in different sessions and compare the outcome. This will be useful when we finally get around writing a testsuite for the window handling code. That said, I think that sequence numbers for frames would be useful too. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 07:51:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkbAl-0000Ut-7o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39712) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAe-00007e-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAY-0004Jv-2j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:20 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:48729) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAX-0004Jp-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:14 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so1070214iaf.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:51:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DKSjuqpbErpwRNWR+jcQ6GHQjem6Z2oxAr8U0+SKUiw=; b=LyGZyoPLix0W7oIkTehk+atOiTdx95psfg+QHLvC4U8j6TVVseo2PljXOMMPVmSP69 3GexQc1674be8V3VB9AaNQxZTWoLcO0UIdFEiBnlBG5kzVSrncp9m3WQg/oF9iRs0jpb oU19Z/kup1YGLtk1D5T0nrf5I1GxQ4uOj3+h8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.88.230 with SMTP id bj6mr2277177igb.26.1326199873091; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:51:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:13 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:51:25 -0000 2012/1/10 Ted Zlatanov : > On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:21:19 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: > >>> Argh. =A0The auth-source cache is already implemented as a hack, is tha= t >>> hard enough evidence? =A0Quoting the relevant bit from >>> `auth-source-netrc-parse': > >>> #+begin_src lisp >>> ;; cache all netrc files (used to be just .gpg files) >>> ;; Store the contents of the file heavily encrypted in memory. >>> ;; (note for the irony-impaired: they are just obfuscated) >>> (aput 'auth-source-netrc-cache file >>> (list :mtime (nth 5 (file-attributes file)) >>> :secret (lexical-let ((v (mapcar '1+ (buffer-string)))) >>> (lambda () (apply 'string (mapcar '1- v)))))) >>> #+end_src > > SM> Not only I'm not worried about that, but I'm not sure libnettle (or a= ny > SM> other encryption library) would help you fix the underlying problem: > SM> Emacs needs to be able to recover the password for later use anyway, = so > SM> anything we do can only ever be obfuscation, AFAIK. =A0Maybe there's = some > SM> clever way to do better, but again, for lack of hard evidence > SM> I'm unconvinced. > > With true encryption with libnettle, we can encrypt the secret in > memory, on the wire, and on disk so a casual attacker doesn't have the isn't the secret to decrypt it available in emacs process space for ready retrieval? usually you also overwrite that memory to prevent leakage as soon as possible. unlocking a keychain and keeping that "safe" open for the time a user is using the environment is common practice. aren't you going to implement something like gnome's or kde's locked keychain? there will be at least a couple users demanding integration with existing keychain systems (kde, osx, gnome, ...). git has recently implemented support for various systems with an abstraction layer and a caching "daemon". > chance to grab it. =A0This should hook into the Lisp object printer, for > instance, so it's effortless to print and read encrypted objects. > > I'm worried about treating obfuscation as "good enough" security. =A0That > has a history of backfiring. =A0Would it convince you to show an attack > that succeeds with obfuscation but fails with true encryption? > > I know Emacs is not designed with security in mind. =A0We have to start > somewhere; this will at least harden the outer shell. =A0You may not be > worried about it, but I am. when Emacs was written legend tells that passwords were not in common use in the timeshare environment Richard worked with. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 07:51:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkbB1-0000oe-BW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39822) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAu-0000oN-Rd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAm-0004LD-5h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:36 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35779) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAl-0004Ki-Lc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbAi-0004Ij-RS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:24 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:24 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:51:08 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 29 Message-ID: <87k44zg1qb.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F0BAA1C.5020804@dancol.org> <87ty43g4r6.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:vhJ6f279FkxpPArJc56d/DJBmr0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:51:42 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 06:45:49 -0500 Ted Zlatanov wrote: TZ> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:01:48 -0800 Daniel Colascione wrote: DC> On 1/9/12 5:43 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >>> Calling out to an external process is less secure than using built-in >>> encryption primitives. So while in general you're right, in this case >>> I'll respectfully disagree. It may be convenient but it's not secure. DC> If an attacker can read the bytes sent over a pipe between your Emacs DC> and its GPG subprocess, you've already lost. I'm not sure what DC> reasonable definition of "secure" you meant to use here. TZ> I'm being polite. I sent this off too quickly accidentally. I was writing that I don't want to say Emacs is insecure currently, only that it can be made more so. To answer your question, the risk of calling an external process is not limited to just the IPC (although that can be compromised too, depending on the platform and its security model). On Unix an attacker can replace /usr/bin/gpg, for instance--that's much easier than compromising the kernel. The risk is in the external dependency, not GPG in particular. My point is, if we can gain some security by using libnettle, which is already part of Emacs when it's compiled with GnuTLS, then it makes sense to do it. The cost is minimal. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 08:37:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkbtP-00018p-77 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:37:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39524) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbtI-00016a-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:37:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbtH-0004zk-QF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:37:28 -0500 Received: from mail.dev.rtsoft.ru ([213.79.90.226]:55965) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkbtH-0004yx-2o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:37:27 -0500 Received: (qmail 4092 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2012 13:37:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.5.146?) (192.168.1.70) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 13:37:24 -0000 Message-ID: <4F0C3F48.6050807@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:38:16 +0400 From: Dmitry Antipov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] buffer name assignment Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090008020603090802060203" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 213.79.90.226 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:37:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090008020603090802060203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These two assignments looks redundant. Dmitry --------------090008020603090802060203 Content-Type: text/plain; name="buffer_name_assignment.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="buffer_name_assignment.patch" PT09IG1vZGlmaWVkIGZpbGUgJ3NyYy9DaGFuZ2VMb2cnCi0tLSBzcmMvQ2hhbmdlTG9nCTIw MTItMDEtMTAgMDM6MDA6MjggKzAwMDAKKysrIHNyYy9DaGFuZ2VMb2cJMjAxMi0wMS0xMCAx MzozNToxNiArMDAwMApAQCAtMSwzICsxLDggQEAKKzIwMTItMDEtMTAgIERtaXRyeSBBbnRp cG92ICA8ZG1hbnRpcG92QHlhbmRleC5ydT4KKworCSogYnVmZmVyLmMgKEZnZXRfYnVmZmVy X2NyZWF0ZSwgRm1ha2VfaW5kaXJlY3RfYnVmZmVyKTogUmVtb3ZlCisJZHVwbGljYXRlZCBi dWZmZXIgbmFtZSBhc3NpZ25tZW50LgorCiAyMDEyLTAxLTEwICBHbGVubiBNb3JyaXMgIDxy Z21AZ251Lm9yZz4KIAogCSogZXBhdGhzLmluIChQQVRIX0xPQURTRUFSQ0gsIFBBVEhfRFVN UExPQURTRUFSQ0gsIFBBVEhfRVhFQykKCj09PSBtb2RpZmllZCBmaWxlICdzcmMvYnVmZmVy LmMnCi0tLSBzcmMvYnVmZmVyLmMJMjAxMi0wMS0wNSAwOTo0NjowNSArMDAwMAorKysgc3Jj L2J1ZmZlci5jCTIwMTItMDEtMTAgMTM6MjU6MDMgKzAwMDAKQEAgLTM4OSw3ICszODksNiBA QAogCiAgIEJWQVIgKGIsIG1hcmspID0gRm1ha2VfbWFya2VyICgpOwogICBCVUZfTUFSS0VS UyAoYikgPSBOVUxMOwotICBCVkFSIChiLCBuYW1lKSA9IG5hbWU7CiAKICAgLyogUHV0IHRo aXMgaW4gdGhlIGFsaXN0IG9mIGFsbCBsaXZlIGJ1ZmZlcnMuICAqLwogICBYU0VUQlVGRkVS IChidWZmZXIsIGIpOwpAQCAtNjE2LDcgKzYxNSw2IEBACiAgIFZidWZmZXJfYWxpc3QgPSBu Y29uYzIgKFZidWZmZXJfYWxpc3QsIEZjb25zIChGY29ucyAobmFtZSwgYnVmKSwgUW5pbCkp OwogCiAgIEJWQVIgKGIsIG1hcmspID0gRm1ha2VfbWFya2VyICgpOwotICBCVkFSIChiLCBu YW1lKSA9IG5hbWU7CiAKICAgLyogVGhlIG11bHRpYnl0ZSBzdGF0dXMgYmVsb25ncyB0byB0 aGUgYmFzZSBidWZmZXIuICAqLwogICBCVkFSIChiLCBlbmFibGVfbXVsdGlieXRlX2NoYXJh Y3RlcnMpID0gQlZBUiAoYi0+YmFzZV9idWZmZXIsIGVuYWJsZV9tdWx0aWJ5dGVfY2hhcmFj dGVycyk7Cgo= --------------090008020603090802060203-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 08:49:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkc5L-0004HR-Q5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60964) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkc5I-0004H2-Up for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkc59-0006wi-I7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:52 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36886) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkc59-0006wc-5R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:43 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkc57-0001NC-SY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:49:41 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:49:41 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:49:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:29 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 39 Message-ID: <877h0zfz12.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:bmyRSP4YdVdKiGFWBFlgVJ8tfM8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:49:54 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:13 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: CM> isn't the secret to decrypt it available in emacs process space for CM> ready retrieval? Not necessarily. But even if it is, the attacker has to know where to find the private key and run non-trivial code to use it. The risk is smaller than plopping the secret data in plain view. CM> usually you also overwrite that memory to prevent leakage as CM> soon as possible. Yes, and we've discussed how ELisp makes that hard, so this will require work at the C level. It's not trivial, absolutely. CM> unlocking a keychain and keeping that "safe" open for the time CM> a user is using the environment is common practice. CM> aren't you going to implement something like gnome's or kde's CM> locked keychain? That's a possibility but not my target currently. CM> there will be at least a couple users demanding integration with CM> existing keychain systems (kde, osx, gnome, ...). We have KDE+GNOME in auth-source already, through the Secrets API. We also had an attempt to provide an interface to the Mac OS X keychain last year, but I don't think it was fruitful. CM> git has recently implemented support for various systems with an CM> abstraction layer and a caching "daemon". Yes, I've followed Jeff King's patches with great interest, although I was absolutely swamped last year and could not test them as I wanted to. I intend to work on integrating VC and Magit with Git's credentials, probably with auth-source support. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 08:57:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkcCd-00066b-Ms for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:57:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcCU-00066B-1Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:57:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcCO-00005I-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:57:18 -0500 Received: from mail.dev.rtsoft.ru ([213.79.90.226]:34588) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcCN-000051-Vf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:57:12 -0500 Received: (qmail 4908 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2012 13:57:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.5.146?) (192.168.1.70) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 13:57:09 -0000 Message-ID: <4F0C43E9.3060300@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:58:01 +0400 From: Dmitry Antipov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [xterm.h] note on 'dragging' field of 'struct scroll_bar' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 213.79.90.226 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:57:25 -0000 I want to notice about the placement of 'dragging' field within 'struct scroll_bar'. It's a Lisp_Object, but placed so it's not reachable by the marking traversal. IIUC, it works just because it's always an integer, Qnil or Qt; but this is a potential trap for someone who will change this someday. So, I think it's better to use plain C 'int' instead, or move 'dragging' up to the head of 'struct scroll_bar' before 'x_window'. And, the more general question is: why not use the same 'struct scroll_bar' both for X and Win32 code? Dmitry From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 09:05:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkcKJ-0007HO-SA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:05:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33143) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcKC-0007HB-RE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:05:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcK7-00026w-2J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:05:16 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:40165) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcK6-00026l-UL; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:05:11 -0500 Received: from asado (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0AE56xX011140; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:05:06 -0500 Received: by asado (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 70BBE5008B; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:24:01 -0500 (EST) From: monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: Windows' "split status" Message-ID: References: <87vcqqoekt.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBD6B63.4050607@gmx.at> <87vcqq6utg.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBE4414.10009@gmx.at> <87d3cwr9hc.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBFA0AF.7000608@gmx.at> <87obwgatpy.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBFFBA5.1000309@gmx.at> <87hb26gdx8.fsf@gnu.org> <4EC213EA.4080304@gmx.at> <871ut9n2rr.fsf@gnu.org> <4EC2821C.4020400@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <4EC2821C.4020400@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:15:40 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 1 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered DATE_IN_PAST_96_XX=1, RV4096=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4096> : streams <718468> : uri <1044183> X-NAI-Spam-Level: * X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:05:22 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:24:01 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:05:22 -0000 >> But I think this result is just a consequence of the implementation >> rather than actual intention. My impression is that window-nest is >> trying to solve a problem which can't be solved with a user-config: it's >> trying to provide some kind of way for elisp packages to use parent >> windows as a form of "very lightweight sub-frame", without touching much >> of their code (e.g. without making their code use parent windows >> explicitly). >> IIUC the use of window-nest for that purpose only works if the >> application limits itself to using 2 windows within that "sub-frame", > What makes you think that? Are you saying that my description of the intention behind window-nest is wrong? Or are you only saying that the "at most 2" limitation is not really true. while everything else is right? I don't actually know what was the intention behind window-nest, so confirmation would be welcome. > You can let-bind `window-nest' to t around a > split and get an extra parent around the resulting two windows. After > that you can split those windows any which way you want and can get an > arbitrary number of windows within a "sub-frame". The manual explicitly > uses the term "always" in the sentence That sounds like a rather round-about way to do things (because you have let-bind the var around some parts of he code, but not all): wouldn't it be easier to start with "create a parent window" (which would start containing only the selected window) an then proceed to split it the usual way. That would save you from using let-binding. > `window-nest' is aimed at providing a safe low-level mechanism to > construct and preserve parent windows. Everything else can be easily > built in Elisp on top of that, like atomic or side windows. If it's a low-level mechanism, why is it a defcustom, then? If it's aimed at "construct and preserve", why is it a variable, rather than a function? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 09:17:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkcWA-0000U6-Kf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57624) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcW3-0000RP-7B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcVx-0004bv-C1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:30 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:44431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkcVr-0004a6-P7; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:20 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0AEHAdS015382; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:13 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 4B4B158DA7; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans Message-ID: References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <874nw4rygh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:17:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: <874nw4rygh.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:08:46 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4096=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4096> : streams <718471> : uri <1044189> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:17:36 -0000 > Thanks. (No need to worry about merging; we won't be doing any emacs-23 > to trunk merges anymore, only cherry-picking fixes from trunk to > emacs-23) I don't think it costs much to "worry about merging", so better do it, just in case. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 11:02:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rke9G-0007Ew-Uo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:02:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39927) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rke9B-0007Ej-3h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:02:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rke96-00025E-5d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:02:01 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:46335) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rke96-000258-1o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:01:56 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so1331525iaf.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:01:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWeKeHXb9zSQte/3/0jmNttw54SzU7866vWbYoi1Jyk=; b=wTKomYQAY23TnU4mwzfsomuoqswiXZe2mTTZKs+lZBUOEI+yrGZPOrL/QSyltmor07 VpKkvYFo7i8ezxPyYapYhz7je7uELyamWk5ES9JmAoFMt/DMpN9jZupdhBR6vDMJbVhP 2vA8jDfv928ifc+1aFbNkHwjyiy5j7ZLooc6w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.150.130 with SMTP id a2mr22259398icw.43.1326211315169; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:01:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877h0zfz12.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h0zfz12.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:01:54 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:02:05 -0000 2012/1/10 Ted Zlatanov : > On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:51:13 +0100 Carsten Mattner wrote: > > CM> isn't the secret to decrypt it available in emacs process space for > CM> ready retrieval? > > Not necessarily. =A0But even if it is, the attacker has to know where to > find the private key and run non-trivial code to use it. =A0The risk is > smaller than plopping the secret data in plain view. When it comes to security, you have to clearly document things like this, so that it's at least clear what's going on, and there is no false sense of safety. I tend to view security from a "the worst will happen" angle. That way you can try to minimize surprises by being aware of all the attack vectors. > CM> usually you also overwrite that memory to prevent leakage as > CM> soon as possible. > > Yes, and we've discussed how ELisp makes that hard, so this will require > work at the C level. =A0It's not trivial, absolutely. > > CM> unlocking a keychain and keeping that "safe" open for the time > CM> a user is using the environment is common practice. > > CM> aren't you going to implement something like gnome's or kde's > CM> locked keychain? > > That's a possibility but not my target currently. > > CM> there will be at least a couple users demanding integration with > CM> existing keychain systems (kde, osx, gnome, ...). > > We have KDE+GNOME in auth-source already, through the Secrets API. =A0We > also had an attempt to provide an interface to the Mac OS X keychain > last year, but I don't think it was fruitful. > > CM> git has recently implemented support for various systems with an > CM> abstraction layer and a caching "daemon". > > Yes, I've followed Jeff King's patches with great interest, although I > was absolutely swamped last year and could not test them as I wanted to. > I intend to work on integrating VC and Magit with Git's credentials, > probably with auth-source support. Also on my TODO list. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 11:26:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkeXB-0003Od-4Z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:26:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47246) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkeX5-0003NC-Lq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:26:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkeX1-0006wO-6F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:26:43 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:59593) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkeX0-0006vq-Qq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:26:39 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2012 16:26:37 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-238.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.238]) [62.47.50.238] by mail.gmx.net (mp014) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2012 17:26:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+EZD0sgJeEUKC/zCks1gVQtg29Ah4ChNLmJZzpQ4 vOiODsVGUWKcnG Message-ID: <4F0C66BB.9000800@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:26:35 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Windows' "split status" References: <87vcqqoekt.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBD6B63.4050607@gmx.at> <87vcqq6utg.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBE4414.10009@gmx.at> <87d3cwr9hc.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBFA0AF.7000608@gmx.at> <87obwgatpy.fsf@gnu.org> <4EBFFBA5.1000309@gmx.at> <87hb26gdx8.fsf@gnu.org> <4EC213EA.4080304@gmx.at> <871ut9n2rr.fsf@gnu.org> <4EC2821C.4020400@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:26:47 -0000 >>> But I think this result is just a consequence of the implementation >>> rather than actual intention. My impression is that window-nest is >>> trying to solve a problem which can't be solved with a user-config: it's >>> trying to provide some kind of way for elisp packages to use parent >>> windows as a form of "very lightweight sub-frame", without touching much >>> of their code (e.g. without making their code use parent windows >>> explicitly). >>> IIUC the use of window-nest for that purpose only works if the >>> application limits itself to using 2 windows within that "sub-frame", > >> What makes you think that? > > Are you saying that my description of the intention behind window-nest > is wrong? Or are you only saying that the "at most 2" limitation is not > really true. while everything else is right? When using side windows there must be exactly one major non-side window containing all other non-side windows. That window can be considered a "very lightweight sub-frame". But the number of subwindows of that window is not limited in any sense. > I don't actually know what was the intention behind window-nest, so > confirmation would be welcome. Your characterization above is OK. Just that there's no limitation. >> You can let-bind `window-nest' to t around a >> split and get an extra parent around the resulting two windows. After >> that you can split those windows any which way you want and can get an >> arbitrary number of windows within a "sub-frame". The manual explicitly >> uses the term "always" in the sentence > > That sounds like a rather round-about way to do things (because you have > let-bind the var around some parts of he code, but not all): wouldn't it > be easier to start with "create a parent window" (which would start > containing only the selected window) an then proceed to split it the > usual way. That would save you from using let-binding. There are two problems with this: (1) I invariantly disallow matryoshka windows, so each internal window must have at least two children. Lifting this invariant might have tricky consequences. (2) When deleting a window makes a parent recombinable with its siblings, I must be able to suppress that recombination - otherwise the "sub-frame" mechanism will break. >> `window-nest' is aimed at providing a safe low-level mechanism to >> construct and preserve parent windows. Everything else can be easily >> built in Elisp on top of that, like atomic or side windows. > > If it's a low-level mechanism, why is it a defcustom, then? It's a defcustom because earlier it was just a special value of a precursor of an option now called `window-combination-resize'. If you think it's a bad idea, I can always turn it into a plain variable like `display-buffer-mark-dedicated'. OTOH, having it always non-nil makes the behavior of window deletions more predictable as explained in the manual. > If it's aimed at "construct and preserve", why is it a variable, rather > than a function? It's a variable _and_ a slot in the window structure and it's used like `display-buffer-mark-dedicated': Usually for one single call but there's no harm if someone wants all windows be dedicated or all parent windows have only two children. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 15:01:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkht3-0004tg-R2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45578) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkhsw-0004r5-4T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkhsq-0006VS-H4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:30 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:48250) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkhsq-0006VO-Bd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:24 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0AK1N8Q026820; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:23 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8651BB40FA; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:23 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87fwfon7gl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb04icxl.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqesgwnj.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87pqerg4df.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877h0zfz12.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:01:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: <877h0zfz12.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:49:29 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4097=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4097> : streams <718541> : uri <1044353> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:01:35 -0000 > Not necessarily. But even if it is, the attacker has to know where to > find the private key and run non-trivial code to use it. The risk is > smaller than plopping the secret data in plain view. I call that "obfuscation". The non-trivial code is not a deterrent either because it comes with Emacs ;-) Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 18:43:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RklLo-0001Q0-Ki for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:43:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46863) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RklLl-0001OP-DQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:43:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RklLk-00021t-5F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:43:29 -0500 Received: from lax-gw06.mailroute.net ([199.89.0.106]:57348 helo=mail.mroute.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RklLj-00021m-V7; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:43:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lax-gw06.mroute.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66042C6F8; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:35:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by MailRoute Received: from red.stonehenge.com (red.stonehenge.com [208.79.95.2]) by lax-gw06.mroute.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A35C6F6; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:35:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: by red.stonehenge.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 663AF1559; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:35:34 -0800 (PST) From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> x-mayan-date: Long count = 12.19.19.0.14; tzolkin = 9 Ix; haab = 2 Muan Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:35:34 -0800 In-Reply-To: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:14:15 -0500") Message-ID: <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 199.89.0.106 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:43:30 -0000 >>>>> "GM" == Glenn Morris writes: GM> Katsumi Yamaoka wrote: >> Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of >> every year regardless of having been changed or not. GM> Emacs has done it this way for several years, as documented in GM> admin/notes and as recommended in "Information for Maintainers of GNU GM> Software": That doesn't make it right, and I've gone on the record in the past arguing against it. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 20:46:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RknH0-0002bC-Fj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:46:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38333) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RknGw-0002Ud-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:46:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RknGv-0005DT-QU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:46:38 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:61168) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RknGt-0005Cx-LZ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:46:35 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841DFC055D; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:46:30 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:46:30 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans In-Reply-To: <87ehv9xkwi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <87ehv9xkwi.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:46:39 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:52:45 +0800, Chong Yidong said: > YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu writes: >> The latest Emacs 23 Mac port contains some backported patches for >> redisplay bugs that was found in the trunk (revno 106534, >> 106517(Bug#10119), 106357, 106345(Bug#9496), 106279(Bug#9947), >> 106223, and 106220). They can be used as candidates. Among them, >> I think at least revno 106534 and 106357 should be backported to >> the emacs-23 branch because otherwise users may occasionally see >> very strange results > Thanks. It's certainly prudent to fix all those unitialized > variable bugs. Committed except for 106517, which I'm going to > stare at for a bit longer. I'd give revno 106677 (Bug#8992, wrong mouse highlight background ascent and height in the `xft' font backend) as another candidate. This is not a critical bug, but looks visually odd and the fix is safe to install (the drawing functions in the other font backend drivers already do so). YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 10 22:52:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkpEp-00073s-Fo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:52:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48578) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkpEm-00072Z-Q8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:52:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkpEl-0000ep-Bq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:52:32 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f48.google.com ([209.85.216.48]:62885) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkpEl-0000ek-69 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:52:31 -0500 Received: by qadc16 with SMTP id c16so245964qad.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:52:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=QixMVi4XaM8VrRJ3Om3fTXcgKbced20WCyas6vCXrys=; b=dk8U9my7ufnB78qVqZLwIjcbrmVnvX3DGw5olA2AEu6IlIgJ8RzmtgHRnsI2GORLB4 lSZYXYdr+drjMrR29lnCNZAkOZVXmKDqKAOMBQ5w9XpxbJDSZjtaTzPCFzavaoR3zlhL qKD5NBG6fwOTCoBeA0eZnNJ5JfChBB8VktwmI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.116.200 with SMTP id n8mr17294385qaq.31.1326253950592; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.71.81 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:52:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:52:30 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Keyboard over network From: Strahinja Popovic To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:52:33 -0000 Hello everyone! I'm trying to create android application that would be something like network client for Emacs. Output would be Emacspeak stream, interpreted on the phone, and input should be software or hardware keyboard of the device. Output is not perfect, but my problem is input. Currently it is sending stream that is, emulateing VT220. How could I "plug" this stream in Emacs to emulate keyboard input? I don't believe that changing stream encoding would be a problem. Best regards, Strahinja Popovic From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 00:09:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkqRP-0006Ro-0U for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:09:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46448) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkqRM-0006RH-Az for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:09:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkqRL-0003Zp-Gx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:09:36 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:40998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkqRJ-0003YJ-0V; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:09:33 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E497F9707EB; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B20911A29FF; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:09:17 +0900 Message-ID: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:09:37 -0000 Carsten Mattner writes: > For better or worse Dan's software is packaged and licensed as he > sees fit. If it's anything like Dan's usual "license", you're going to need a real lawyer to decide if it's free enough for Emacs. IIRC, Dan often does not permit distribution of modified versions, which is right out. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 03:10:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RktGU-0003XT-Jy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54884) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RktGO-0003Vq-UE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RktGK-0008Rg-G9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35586) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RktGK-0008RV-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:24 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RktGH-0005im-3o; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:21 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Security flaw in EDE; new release plans References: <8739bp8l3g.fsf@gnu.org> <874nw4rygh.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: BRLO Exon Shell Panama chameleon man MP5K-SD BLU-97 A/B X-Ran: 5EBLq}veD`v$t2p15;P-=b1M(g,8[w*Q^tSR-%_r_fFjIMlqkZh1D3fj_2Q(`NUx(`ae(* X-Hue: yellow X-Attribution: GM Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:10:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: <874nw4rygh.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:08:46 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:10:32 -0000 Chong Yidong wrote: > This sounds desirable, but the discussion in that bug is not as concrete > as I'd like. What's the specific patch you're taking about? (untested) *** configure.in 2012-01-11 07:52:35 +0000 --- configure.in 2012-01-11 08:06:35 +0000 *************** *** 3103,3109 **** # the C preprocessor to some helpful value like 1, or maybe the empty # string. Needless to say consequent macro substitutions are less # than conducive to the makefile finding the correct directory. ! [cpp_undefs="`echo $srcdir $configuration $canonical unix | sed -e 's/[^a-zA-Z0-9_]/ /g' -e 's/^/ /' -e 's/ *$//' \ -e 's/ */ -U/g' -e 's/-U[0-9][^ ]*//g'`"] --- 3103,3116 ---- # the C preprocessor to some helpful value like 1, or maybe the empty # string. Needless to say consequent macro substitutions are less # than conducive to the makefile finding the correct directory. ! ! [ ! case $canonical in ! i[456]86-*) extra_undefs=i386 ;; ! *) extra_undefs= ;; ! esac ! ! cpp_undefs="`echo $srcdir $configuration $canonical unix $extra_undefs | sed -e 's/[^a-zA-Z0-9_]/ /g' -e 's/^/ /' -e 's/ *$//' \ -e 's/ */ -U/g' -e 's/-U[0-9][^ ]*//g'`"] > BTW, would you mind updating the copyright years on the emacs-23 branch? :( From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 05:42:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkvds-0002YB-6j for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:42:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32780) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkvdb-0002UP-2I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:42:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkvdX-0007W0-4T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:42:35 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:55859) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkvdV-0007V3-1O; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 05:42:29 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so1107972iaf.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=08+eL/RgjkIWVEtpNyEi5keDigdrcbUYTJSH7PYiAzQ=; b=sVNKRB+pB7xiA0GyttNXK7KC6yCxarjpYPMsrxEfTmola9A27Uqd0Bre0g+UPYdGZK FJ1njt/npsX82XMwwSYmWUXl+2kj1S9pneVb3b4ViE8fJi6PlI8E7lToEokEL5ZY9u82 OdnbsGeGbmOnO/dytltFndWRB9Fn0KjpLC/QI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.88.230 with SMTP id bj6mr6518409igb.26.1326278547318; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:42:27 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) From: Carsten Mattner To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:42:50 -0000 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull w= rote: > Carsten Mattner writes: > > =A0> For better or worse Dan's software is packaged and licensed as he > =A0> sees fit. > > If it's anything like Dan's usual "license", you're going to need a > real lawyer to decide if it's free enough for Emacs. =A0IIRC, Dan often > does not permit distribution of modified versions, which is right out. It's public domain. Is that a problem? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 07:26:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkxGI-0002Oj-UA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:26:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33273) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxGC-0002OG-PQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:26:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxGB-0001FQ-Sv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:26:32 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:42175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxG5-0001Ee-Fn; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:26:25 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACD59707B9; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:26:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B60771A29FF; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:26:22 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) In-Reply-To: References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:26:22 +0900 Message-ID: <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:26:38 -0000 Carsten Mattner writes: > It's public domain. Is that a problem? Not if it really is. I'm just saying that Bernstein's licensing and distribution practices for much of his software, if applied here, would be problematic, and it deserves checking before doing too much work on adding support for it to Emacs. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 07:49:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkxcL-0005aR-L0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:49:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41006) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxcI-0005Yw-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:49:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxcB-0005Gz-Av for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:49:22 -0500 Received: from anne.math.ntnu.no ([129.241.15.150]:35653) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkxcA-0005GW-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:49:15 -0500 Received: (qmail 21398 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2012 12:49:11 -0000 Received: from gauss.math.ntnu.no (HELO localhost) (hanche@129.241.15.58) by anne.math.ntnu.no with ESMTPA; 11 Jan 2012 12:49:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:49:10 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Harald Hanche-Olsen In-Reply-To: <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-URL: http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/ X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3.50 on Emacs 24.0.91 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 129.241.15.150 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:49:23 -0000 ["Stephen J. Turnbull" (2012-01-11 12:26:22 UTC)] > Not if it really is. I'm just saying that Bernstein's licensing and > distribution practices for much of his software, if applied here, > would be problematic, and it deserves checking before doing too much > work on adding support for it to Emacs. That used to be true, several years ago. But in late 2007, he announced that he was changing that, and all his software – past and future – would be in the public domain [1]. (It may be that some old distributions of his still have the old license files, though.) [1] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3147768955127254412&hl=en As far as I know the term "public domain", there is really only one kind, so you cannot attach license conditions to something in the public domain. That would be a contradiction in terms, like hair on a bald head. (In some jurisdictions, such as Norway, there are moral rights attached to a work that cannot be given away, such as the right to be identified as the author of the work. But that is another matter.) - Harald From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 07:59:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkxmB-0007lU-Bc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:59:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48864) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkxm0-0007i8-55 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:59:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkxly-00072G-J4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:59:24 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:49879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkxly-000729-9a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:59:22 -0500 Received: by ggnp4 with SMTP id p4so316567ggn.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:59:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s9ZyddcyDIyny+nXSkHKZttkkqP9YjbDkMDrRQzsO0Y=; b=dCmc1lBRoxGAHNL4SqIueGY1CMJBz1S2iTcQ4vsZENx65PGQm5N9o2XklWDRN7iO02 ryr1x0di6LAFKsteHnC4/2pa5ljJeakXEbHLdwtokk67zJ72bgg9dFwpLDpB2d98WOP3 oaG8hvoqD8qnU67nbKe7OeQO8vSI4ZqRqnZI0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.182.130 with SMTP id ee2mr7179518igc.30.1326286761542; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:59:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> References: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:59:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: Harald Hanche-Olsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:59:33 -0000 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote: > ["Stephen J. Turnbull" (2012-01-11 12:26:22 UTC)] > >> Not if it really is. =A0I'm just saying that Bernstein's licensing and >> distribution practices for much of his software, if applied here, >> would be problematic, and it deserves checking before doing too much >> work on adding support for it to Emacs. > > That used to be true, several years ago. But in late 2007, he > announced that he was changing that, and all his software =96 past and > future =96 would be in the public domain [1]. (It may be that some old > distributions of his still have the old license files, though.) > > [1] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-3147768955127254412&hl=3De= n > > As far as I know the term "public domain", there is really only one > kind, so you cannot attach license conditions to something in the > public domain. That would be a contradiction in terms, like hair on a > bald head. (In some jurisdictions, such as Norway, there are moral > rights attached to a work that cannot be given away, such as the right > to be identified as the author of the work. But that is another > matter.) Even if it had a non public-domain license, that license may not be enforceable. We already have a hard time as developers of free code when it comes to deciding whether a combination of two pieces of code is legal. I wish there was a matrix listing all combinations of "free" licenses. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 08:45:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RkyUu-0005E1-Jg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:45:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49459) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyUo-0005CX-1U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:45:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyUe-0008B8-K6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:45:42 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48909) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyUe-0008Aa-F1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:45:32 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyUb-0005ee-If for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:45:29 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:45:29 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:45:29 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Updating copyright years Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:43:19 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:pxWAPgtXLU/22ugkAmH5dfkMMoY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 Cc: ding@gnus.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:45:47 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:35:34 -0800 merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: >>>>>> "GM" == Glenn Morris writes: GM> Katsumi Yamaoka wrote: >>> Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of >>> every year regardless of having been changed or not. GM> Emacs has done it this way for several years, as documented in GM> admin/notes and as recommended in "Information for Maintainers of GNU GM> Software": RLS> That doesn't make it right, and I've gone on the record in the past RLS> arguing against it. Doesn't the act of modifying the file to insert the new year make the file modified and thus require the new year? Heh heh. (No opinion one way or the other, just found that amusing.) Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 09:08:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkyqd-0008TI-Ji for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:08:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57306) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyqS-0008SQ-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:08:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyqM-0004FO-Rj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:08:04 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:41024) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RkyqM-0004FH-Ox; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:58 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0BE7u7K020953; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:56 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id BA39158C5C; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs Message-ID: References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carsten Mattner's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:42:27 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4097=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4097> : streams <718760> : uri <1044830> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:08:14 -0000 > It's public domain. Is that a problem? IIUC that depends on how he made it "public domain". More specifically, IIRC, it is impossible to really place in the public domain something you created recently (i.e. you can't relinquish your copyright rights so easily). OTOH, you can get a morally equivalent result, by using an appropriate license, see http://creativecommons.org/about/cc0. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 09:21:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkz3n-0001qk-5i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:21:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58589) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz3g-0001jk-EE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:21:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz3a-0006SX-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:21:44 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:60903) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz3a-0006SM-0k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:21:38 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so1424961iaf.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=93VLyJ9NReXrJ7xyDI2Do2MgMXy7n0IaxQ/zTvq9Sp4=; b=vT/WtoGhgm4/fSG0aubdRrA9u60NazZ6my9/x87YOZ690QjdHvX5PmvVPFdlFjHoZQ 2HbvX0BC4WtQE68J34CgM6C5qV9RL2nZ6BGIpxZqIq89/wbhc8InCQY33gj+FSssEpoD ieUkVdjm47nmXNJ7NNRP43BJpHRQThqEO7GDA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.43.130 with SMTP id uc2mr26353181icb.35.1326291697133; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:21:37 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Updating copyright years From: Carsten Mattner To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:21:50 -0000 2012/1/11 Ted Zlatanov : > On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:35:34 -0800 merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwa= rtz) wrote: > >>>>>>> "GM" =3D=3D Glenn Morris writes: > GM> Katsumi Yamaoka wrote: >>>> Emacs people seem to have been updating it at the beginning of >>>> every year regardless of having been changed or not. > > GM> Emacs has done it this way for several years, as documented in > GM> admin/notes and as recommended in "Information for Maintainers of GNU > GM> Software": > > RLS> That doesn't make it right, and I've gone on the record in the past > RLS> arguing against it. > > Doesn't the act of modifying the file to insert the new year make the > file modified and thus require the new year? =A0Heh heh. > > (No opinion one way or the other, just found that amusing.) Does anyone know why it's required to include a date (year) in copyright headers. In the same context, do all licenses lend themselve to just be referred in the file header (foobar $LICENSE_NAME .... found in LICENSE), or is this dangerous? Is a complete verbatim copy of the license a requirement? Maybe if the file= is distributed separately? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 09:23:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rkz5c-0002Hh-D4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:23:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59074) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz5V-0002HJ-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:23:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz5U-0006kq-Cp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:23:37 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:61974) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rkz5P-0006k6-UO; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:23:31 -0500 Received: by ggnp4 with SMTP id p4so381773ggn.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:23:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NTSNkRMFNQd+HyLaNPLsZE5iP0IxrLQrYQUeQ9Lqv2U=; b=tJIRPOynjPqT7edWaorMK22pyR2+jlbnqC2rk5QpbiY1+raZ1NHmykLsuX++FmPw/x OSMyyMZK90DXbyAAl0EOfuVQFwee85m00/euFWpTGiRelYAQcac3GPitjS3NYzpTxD7K T1/l9/oUYgXSUFy+S/nVDGxqq9LCudRWwNU8o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.182.130 with SMTP id ee2mr7449187igc.30.1326291811064; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:23:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:23:30 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:23:42 -0000 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> It's public domain. =A0Is that a problem? > > IIUC that depends on how he made it "public domain". =A0More specifically= , > IIRC, it is impossible to really place in the public domain something > you created recently (i.e. you can't relinquish your copyright rights so > easily). =A0OTOH, you can get a morally equivalent result, by using an > appropriate license, see http://creativecommons.org/about/cc0. So selecting MIT or X11 is a better choice then, isn't it? IANAL and believe we're speculating here somewhat. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 10:47:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl0Oe-0002oG-OM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:47:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50546) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0OZ-0002lN-Fx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:47:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0OX-0005im-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:47:23 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:52195) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0OW-0005iT-Je for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:47:21 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69349706B2; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:47:17 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A2A2C1A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:47:17 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Harald Hanche-Olsen Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs In-Reply-To: <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> References: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:47:17 +0900 Message-ID: <871ur69r7e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:47:27 -0000 Harald Hanche-Olsen writes: > That used to be true, several years ago. But in late 2007, he > announced that he was changing that, and all his software =E2=80=93 past= and > future =E2=80=93 would be in the public domain [1]. Oh, that's good! > (It may be that some old distributions of his still have the old > license files, though.) Well, that was one of the problems with some of those distributions ... there were no license files! > As far as I know the term "public domain", there is really only one > kind, so you cannot attach license conditions to something in the > public domain. Sure, but that's assuming that Carsten knows what the public domain is. No offense intended, I just don't know him. OTOH, Bernstein's reputation as a copyright crank is well-deserved, you know, even if it's been several years since he changed his mind. Unfortunately, that attitude has meant that his software, which is universally respected for its security and performance, has been relegated to the backwaters of FLOSS (because it usually wasn't). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 10:58:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl0Zl-0008TW-6m for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:58:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42868) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0Ze-0008SU-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:58:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0ZZ-0007Yl-WC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:58:50 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:45335) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0ZZ-0007Yf-Tl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:58:45 -0500 Received: by ggnp4 with SMTP id p4so467474ggn.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:58:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=po9AEeVoKeVf4ciliyWspHbxw4Mm6MzRkctnzjlNU/E=; b=AXzo8hJ8GuDM5jArCM6DmxysKcVq/TkIxuu3q/1OdwkWEP53KGMmfs5GFBQxMCuTV7 BGBAP5lAxCk2+8pntD/6G2bpjuJV8ESGpL0ALp6p0cxljNyUa1W5HrvtJCQkjzFKAPGJ nZZhZqwYrtssvOM3PVw0fZRNpqiXz9oAr20LA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.88.230 with SMTP id bj6mr7671290igb.26.1326297524868; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:58:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <871ur69r7e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> <871ur69r7e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:58:44 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs From: Carsten Mattner To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: Harald Hanche-Olsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:58:56 -0000 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull w= rote: > Harald Hanche-Olsen writes: > =A0> As far as I know the term "public domain", there is really only one > =A0> kind, so you cannot attach license conditions to something in the > =A0> public domain. > > Sure, but that's assuming that Carsten knows what the public domain > is. =A0No offense intended, I just don't know him. =A0OTOH, Bernstein's I'm not offended, but find it funny that you'd have to know me to know whether I know what public domain is. I get what you intend to express with that. Mildly amused and yes you're right, I'm no licensing expert. > reputation as a copyright crank is well-deserved, you know, even if > it's been several years since he changed his mind. =A0Unfortunately, > that attitude has meant that his software, which is universally > respected for its security and performance, has been relegated to the > backwaters of FLOSS (because it usually wasn't). All I know about public domain is that it's not a license per se and something similar to how old recordings of Bach are free for most useses after n years. Which is something a couple politicians intend to extend so that n is more than 70 or 100 (don't remember the values say for the US). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 11:04:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl0fN-0003dp-6E for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:04:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51447) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0fC-0003bZ-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:04:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0fB-0000Rs-D4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:04:34 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:52822) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0f0-0000Qa-0o; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:04:22 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF19707E9; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:04:19 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2D1A51A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:04:19 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs In-Reply-To: References: <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:04:19 +0900 Message-ID: <87zkdu8buk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Carsten Mattner , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:04:43 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: > > It's public domain. Is that a problem? > > IIUC that depends on how he made it "public domain". More specifically, > IIRC, it is impossible to really place in the public domain something > you created recently (i.e. you can't relinquish your copyright rights so > easily). AFAIK Richard has stated explicitly that public domain software may be incorporated in Emacs, but the legal staff recommends (and he agrees) that the author needs to file a statement of dedication or something like that with the FSF. I don't recall him saying you need to be careful about how old the software is. Larry Rosen told me that a public statement of dedication (including as a permission notice in the source) should be sufficient, up to the question of proving in court if the author removed the evidence (such as the tarballs on his site). So, yes, some lawyers do say that in the U.S. there is no explicit basis in legislation or case law for public domain dedications, and therefore the only reliable way for a work to enter the public domain is via lapse of copyright (which thanks to Disney and Sonny Bono's widow won't happen again in our lifetimes, but it's the principle of the thing, you know!) But most lawyers (of the dozen or so I've talked to on a "not legal advice" basis, usually with wine in hand :-) seem to think that an appropriately written dedication should be sufficient. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 11:22:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl0wh-0000SJ-9P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:22:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36445) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0we-0000Qi-AZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:22:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0wb-0003OW-JK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:22:36 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:53453) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl0wa-0003OA-Mi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:22:33 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B525970796; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:22:30 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28BA51A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:22:30 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: Updating copyright years In-Reply-To: References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:22:30 +0900 Message-ID: <87y5te8b09.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:22:37 -0000 Carsten Mattner writes: > Ted Zlatanov writes: > > Doesn't the act of modifying the file to insert the new year make > > the file modified and thus require the new year? =C2=A0Heh heh. No. Dates are not expressive works. Q.E.D. > Does anyone know why it's required to include a date (year) in > copyright headers. I don't know what the current situation is exactly, but the basic thing is that in the U.S., the automatic Berne Convention copyright doesn't require any notice at all (of course that's true of all Berne Convention signatories). If you receive a work with no notice, you must assume that all (copy) rights are reserved to the owner, even if you don't know who that is. However, the owner's powers of enforcement are basically limited to a cease-and-desist order on copying, and destruction of existing unlicensed copies. If you want to press criminal charges, and IIRC also to sue for damages (at least for statutory damages), you need to register your copyright, and in turn you are obliged to provide a notice of copyright, including when copyrights in the work were established. The reason for that requirement today is mostly moot: copyrights do expire (although we'll probably not see that day), and the copyright notice tells the user when. > In the same context, do all licenses lend themselve to just be > referred in the file > header (foobar $LICENSE_NAME .... found in LICENSE), or is this dangerou= s? > Is a complete verbatim copy of the license a requirement? Maybe if > the file is distributed separately? The problem with a permission-by-reference is that the user doesn't know what her rights are, not that the owner of the copyright can't enforce any restrictions that they choose to maintain (if they're enforceable at all, of course). With a well-known license such as the GPL, it's really not necessary to provide a copy of the license from a legal point of view (except in cases where it's an invariant section in an FDL document or the like). However, the GPL is also an advocacy document, so providing it in every distribution is a GoodThang. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 11:33:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl17a-0006QE-KT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:33:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42006) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl17Y-0006Pw-QZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:33:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl17X-0005Qf-Mk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:33:52 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:53906) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl17X-0005QT-BJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:33:51 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BD2970796; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:33:48 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 619C21A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:33:48 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Carsten Mattner Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs In-Reply-To: References: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739bma0i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120111.134910.720106799840715497.hanche@math.ntnu.no> <871ur69r7e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:33:48 +0900 Message-ID: <87vcoi8ahf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Harald Hanche-Olsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:33:53 -0000 Carsten Mattner writes: > All I know about public domain is that it's not a license per se Right. But more precise is that it is the absence of copyright, so no license is needed (up to the considerations of moral rights that Harald mentioned). > and something similar to how old recordings of Bach are free for > most useses after n years. Not just similar; those old recordings *are* in the public domain. > Which is something a couple politicians intend to extend so that n > is more than 70 or 100 (don't remember the values say for the US). Something like 95 years, and renewable. So Disney will be free to sue kindergartens at least into the *next* century. :-( From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 11:37:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl1Ab-0007av-Eq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:37:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36316) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1AU-0007Y6-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:36:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1AS-000690-0f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:36:54 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:35884) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1AR-00068u-TI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:36:51 -0500 Received: by ggnp4 with SMTP id p4so503675ggn.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:36:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mJwMMTkytlloxMgULo2h1P886rmxK1QD/uCLIVmjips=; b=jzxLezRarpVqpDOGH6vO7TRZ/B6jjidZlCBJgZ/ppV8qpiLlmL+ojQANlsQbVrRqSe NE5WwwfjFkJZVLGH9uxrJNYk/c5VRJi1lJZu946UFl7jnMsHIHZw6xPD/Tb6Tyl+pPhn nAD3YowEm79RWAskEgAxzbhgorf13Wl5AqZWY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.88.230 with SMTP id bj6mr7775443igb.26.1326299810956; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.18.41 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:36:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87y5te8b09.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5te8b09.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:36:50 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Updating copyright years From: Carsten Mattner To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:37:00 -0000 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull w= rote: > The problem with a permission-by-reference is that the user doesn't > know what her rights are, not that the owner of the copyright can't > enforce any restrictions that they choose to maintain (if they're > enforceable at all, of course). =A0With a well-known license such as the > GPL, it's really not necessary to provide a copy of the license from a > legal point of view (except in cases where it's an invariant section > in an FDL document or the like). =A0However, the GPL is also an advocacy > document, so providing it in every distribution is a GoodThang. So if I had something like: // Copyright __YEAR__ The __PROJECT__ Authors. All Rights Reserved. // Use of this source code is governed by a __LICENSE__ // license that can be found in the LICENSE file. Is that good enough? Looking at src/nsterm.m as an example, it also doesn't have a copy of the GPL but a long reference to it plus some surrounding explanation. /* GNU Emacs is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. */ Isn't this almost the same reference-only licensing header? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 12:06:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl1dQ-0006UO-3q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:06:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36522) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1dG-0006Pk-3k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:06:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1d8-0003d3-Qe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:06:38 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:30170) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl1d8-0003cz-F8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:06:30 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0BH6SY3010929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:06:29 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0BH6SCU027442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:06:28 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0BH6SFA025049 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:06:28 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:06:25 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:06:24 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AczQg1lcM9FirPI2Sl2IpcbtIddmRQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F0DC195.010E,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:06:47 -0000 There is likely a good reason for this, but I'll still pose the question, to learn. Why not let `C-M-x' re-evaluate a "defun" (defcustom, defface, etc.) that is not necessarily at top level? E.g., with point on, say, `defface' in this sexp, why shouldn't `C-M-x' redefine the face? (when twillig-&-the-tithy-toves-do-tyre-&-timble-in-the-twabe (defface ...)) Currently, in order to make `C-M-x' work for such a "defun" I temporarily move its first line to column 1 and then hit `C-M-x'. Seems like a silly workaround, but I don't know of a better one. Am I missing something? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 14:40:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl41m-00041U-As for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54825) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl41g-0003xM-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl41b-0005Dd-5c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl41b-0005DZ-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:39:55 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl41X-0004At-2V; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:39:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:39:51 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) In-reply-to: <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> (merlyn@stonehenge.com) Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: yamaoka@jpl.org, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:40:05 -0000 We are following legal advice, and we will continue to follow it, so please don't argue about it here. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 14:40:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl427-0004dN-QU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl424-0004ZW-Mk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl421-0005Qz-UV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:24 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54731) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl421-0005Qd-AA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:21 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl41y-0004Ng-0Y; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:40:18 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: NaCl support for Emacs (was: GnuTLS for W32) References: <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqi6tzz.fsf@linux-hvfx.site> <87ehve3ul8.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lipl22xm.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87boqh20ha.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871urc46c9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <739bsoysp.fsf@news.eternal-september.org> <87ty47r5yt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k452p5u3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87liphne9e.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipkiakqq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, carstenmattner@googlemail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:40:26 -0000 If there is a license that needs evaluation, and it isn't in gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html, please mail it to me. I and my advisors will study it together. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 16:35:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl5p4-0005on-29 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:35:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55007) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl5p0-0005my-Rc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:35:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl5oz-0003YG-GS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:35:02 -0500 Received: from smtp208.alice.it ([82.57.200.104]:33420) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl5oz-0003Y5-5O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:35:01 -0500 Received: from ambire (79.51.73.240) by smtp208.alice.it (8.6.023.02) id 4F056E8500952E7B; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:34:56 +0100 Received: from ttn by ambire with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl5ot-0004Pj-MZ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:34:55 +0100 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? References: Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:34:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:06:24 -0800") Message-ID: <87vcohc48w.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.104 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:35:04 -0000 () "Drew Adams" () Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:06:24 -0800 There is likely a good reason for this, but I'll still pose the question, to learn. Why not let `C-M-x' re-evaluate a "defun" (defcustom, defface, etc.) that is not necessarily at top level? E.g., with point on, say, `defface' in this sexp, why shouldn't `C-M-x' redefine the face? (when twillig-&-the-tithy-toves-do-tyre-&-timble-in-the-twabe (defface ...)) Currently, in order to make `C-M-x' work for such a "defun" I temporarily move its first line to column 1 and then hit `C-M-x'. Seems like a silly workaround, but I don't know of a better one. Am I missing something? In the example above, the outermost form is a conditional expression, and the definition is internal. What if you have: (when CONDITION (deffoo NAME (if CONDITION (defbar NAME VALUE) (defbaz NAME VALUE)))) ? Then, getting =E2=80=98C-M-x=E2=80=99 to Do What You Mean when point is = "inside somewhere" is challenged by the multiple definitions. Better to move point to some place and be explicit. That's what =E2=80=98C-x C-e=E2=80=99= is for. That's the deriving answer. The authoritarian answer is that "defun" has a specific meaning (form w/ open-paren in column 0). The cavalier answer is that "maybe someone already asked this on help-gnu-emacs one or two decades ago, hint hint". [insert long-nosed mockup, here :-] From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 17:22:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl6Yu-0002xS-R0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:22:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl6Ys-0002xL-57 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:22:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl6Yr-000328-23 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:22:26 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:55622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl6Yq-000323-TS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:22:25 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0BMMLXh026406 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:22:21 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0BMMKvl009601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:22:20 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0BMMJau009346; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:22:20 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:22:19 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thien-Thi Nguyen'" References: <87vcohc48w.fsf@gnuvola.org> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:22:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87vcohc48w.fsf@gnuvola.org> Thread-Index: AczQqN7sXQxsmH3PQ2exH095DvwAOgAAiXVw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F0E0B9D.00AA,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:22:27 -0000 > (when CONDITION > (deffoo NAME (if CONDITION > (defbar NAME VALUE) > (defbaz NAME VALUE)))) > > Then, getting 'C-M-x' to Do What You Mean when point is "inside > somewhere" is challenged by the multiple definitions. Better to move > point to some place and be explicit. That's what 'C-x C-e' is for. 1. I haven't thought about redesigning it. There might indeed be other things to consider. 2. Offhand, I'd say why not let `C-M-x' always act on the innermost defface, defcustom etc. containing point? That would be clear to users and presumably straightforward to implement. 3. That would mean that if you wanted to eval a top-level sexp containing a def* you would need to place point outside the def*. In this I agree with you that "it is better to move point somewhere and be explicit." Put point inside the form you want and outside any subform you do not want. 4. That's _not_ what `C-x C-e' is for, AFAIK. It does not re-eval an existing face's definition etc. AFAIK, the only way to get re-eval a defface etc. after changing its code is to use `C-M-x'. > That's the deriving answer. The authoritarian answer is that "defun" > has a specific meaning (form w/ open-paren in column 0). Well, yes. For some purposes (e.g. `beginning-of-defun') that makes sense. But does that column limitation make sense also for `C-M-x'? That's the question. ("Top-level" defun is really not the same thing as having its open paren in column 0. I'm glad that by default the actual criterion used is column 0 and not truly top-level. If that were not the case then the workaround of temporarily moving a non top-level defface to column 0 and hitting `C-M-x' would not work.) BTW, does option `open-paren-in-column-0-is-defun-start' work? I cannot see any difference if I set it to nil. What's a good recipe to show what it does? I was expecting that with a nil value `C-M-x' etc. would actually require a defface etc. to be top-level in the buffer, not just starting in column 0, in order for it to be redefined. > The cavalier answer is that "maybe someone already asked this > on help-gnu-emacs one or two decades ago, hint hint". [insert > long-nosed mockup, here :-] Dunno what you mean. Did I ask that decades ago? Could be. What was the answer? ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 19:14:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl8JQ-0001Tr-2d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:14:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41299) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8JN-0001Rc-Cp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:14:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8JM-0004G9-8y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:14:33 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:43952 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8JM-0004G0-30 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:14:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBEE451C6FF; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:13:38 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Organization: JURTA References: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 02:11:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:06:24 -0800") Message-ID: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:14:34 -0000 > (when twillig-&-the-tithy-toves-do-tyre-&-timble-in-the-twabe > (defface ...)) > > Currently, in order to make `C-M-x' work for such a "defun" I temporarily move > its first line to column 1 and then hit `C-M-x'. Seems like a silly workaround, > but I don't know of a better one. Without editing the buffer, you could narrow to the inner expression with e.g. `C-M-SPC C-x n n' and use `C-M-x'. But then you might ask why `C-x n d' (`narrow-to-defun') narrows to the top-level expression, and not to the innermost defface, defcustom etc. ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 19:36:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl8eu-0004Hn-8v for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:36:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55650) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8es-0004HM-L3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:36:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8er-0007eY-Gh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:36:46 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:65155) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl8er-0007eR-7E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:36:45 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0C0aher009316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:36:43 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0C0ag1t000218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:36:42 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0C0afjH031627; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:36:41 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:36:41 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:36:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Thread-Index: AczQvyl49CrHZB8uRW6tNTw0Dc4FVwAAjPgw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F0E2B1C.001D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:36:47 -0000 > > (when twillig-&-the-tithy-toves-do-tyre-&-timble-in-the-twabe > > (defface ...)) > > > > Currently, in order to make `C-M-x' work for such a "defun" > > I temporarily move its first line to column 1 and then hit `C-M-x'. > > Seems like a silly workaround, but I don't know of a better one. > > Without editing the buffer, you could narrow to the inner expression > with e.g. `C-M-SPC C-x n n' and use `C-M-x'. Sure, but that's about as long as the other workaround, especially considering following it with `C-x n w'. I don't mind using a workaround if there's a good reason why `C-M-x' does what it does and it shouldn't be changed. > But then you might ask why `C-x n d' (`narrow-to-defun') > narrows to the top-level expression, and not to the innermost defface, > defcustom etc. ;-) No, but I suppose it too could be asked. My question is whether we really want `C-M-x' to do what it does instead of just pick up the innermost def* containing point. And why it does the former. If there's a good reason, I'd like to know it. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 20:27:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rl9SG-000311-CY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl9SD-0002zU-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl9SC-0006bC-Op for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:45 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:44121) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rl9SC-0006b8-Kd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:44 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0C1Rher022603; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:43 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C5EB958EFB; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Message-ID: References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:27:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:36:38 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4098=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4098> : streams <718881> : uri <1045144> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:27:46 -0000 > My question is whether we really want `C-M-x' to do what it does > instead of just pick up the innermost def* containing point. One problem is to define what is "the innermost def* containing point". I suspect it's difficult to formally define it in a way that always corresponds to the intuitive meaning. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 21:41:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlAbN-0006dy-OG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:41:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48923) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlAbJ-0006Su-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:41:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlAbH-0007dc-PL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:41:12 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:39529) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlAbH-0007d0-Jb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:41:11 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=edith.local) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RlAb7-0004GR-L9; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:41:01 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:40:53 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig4EF61D1C1558B5B2C2674450" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 02:41:14 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig4EF61D1C1558B5B2C2674450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/11/12 5:27 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> My question is whether we really want `C-M-x' to do what it does >> instead of just pick up the innermost def* containing point. >=20 > One problem is to define what is "the innermost def* containing point".= > I suspect it's difficult to formally define it in a way that always > corresponds to the intuitive meaning. Right. Consider: (unless (featurep 'deffoo) (defmacro deffoo (bar) `(defun ,bar () POINT))) --------------enig4EF61D1C1558B5B2C2674450 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8OSDgACgkQ17c2LVA10VttZgCg7DgKmI9mKN6D4ExS/Ed0Kqvt fwQAniAatA2+3RHK5jXZXm9xpKzgL+JG =YwgL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig4EF61D1C1558B5B2C2674450-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 22:42:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlBYf-0006Yw-S5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:42:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49653) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBYd-0006XP-TH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:42:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBYc-0000Fs-Lh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:42:31 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:19423) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBYc-0000Fi-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:42:30 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0C3gLok027273 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:42:21 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0C3gJph017334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:42:20 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0C3gIDE010322; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:42:18 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:42:18 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Daniel Colascione'" , "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:42:14 -0800 Message-ID: <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> Thread-Index: AczQ06KB2Auhm01wTEWTNXneNDpSYQAA6tZQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F0E569E.004B,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:42:32 -0000 > >> My question is whether we really want `C-M-x' to do what it does > >> instead of just pick up the innermost def* containing point. > > > > One problem is to define what is "the innermost def* > > containing point". I suspect it's difficult to formally > > define it in a way that always corresponds to the intuitive > > meaning. > > Right. Consider: > (unless (featurep 'deffoo) > (defmacro deffoo (bar) > `(defun ,bar () POINT))) I did not literally mean "def*". I was trying to abbreviate the definitions that are treated specially by `C-M-x' (as opposed to, say, `C-x C-e'). I was thinking, in particular, of defface, defvar, and defcustom. Perhaps there are additional forms for which `C-M-x' does something special (redefines) currently, but those are the ones I'm aware of and was thinking of. But not defun or defmacro, because `C-M-x' does nothing special for them. They are always redefined whenever they are re-evaluated in any manner. Not so, defface, defvar, and defcustom. For defface, defvar, and defcustom, AFAIK, only `C-M-x' redefines the face or variable - `C-x C-e' or `eval-region' does not. The idea is to get this special redefining behavior of `C-M-x' without a workaround when the defining form does not happen to start in column 0. As for code that generates code (as in your example, but with the `defun' form replaced by a `defface' form), I wouldn't have a problem with `C-M-x' trying to evaluate and redefine it, if that's what the users asked for. That would in some cases raise an error (e.g. embedded `,' or `,@'), but that's not a problem, IMO. The user would be in control (it's on demand, the user positions point, etc.). It does not really need to be the key sequence `C-M-x' that provides this feature, if there is some good reason why what `C-M-x' does now is preferred (still asking that question - no answer so far). My thought is that it would be convenient to have some key for this; that's all. Stefan might be right that it would be difficult to get right - dunno. Off the top of my head, however, I'd guess that just going `uplist' from point till finding `defface', `defcustom', or `defvar' as the car might be good enough. That doesn't mean that all such contexts would necessarily be valid face or var definitions. But again, this is interactive and visible. The user would be in control, asking for it with point where it is etc. You would get what you ask for. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 23:06:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlBvj-0000GH-Vr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:06:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBvi-0000Ff-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:06:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBvh-0003x9-4R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:06:22 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:31808) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlBvg-0003x5-UT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:06:21 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAMNbDk9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABBrQqBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA23f4wdBIg6mlqEUg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,496,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156346314" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 11 Jan 2012 23:06:18 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5920C66110; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:05:56 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Message-ID: References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:05:56 -0500 In-Reply-To: <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:42:14 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , 'Daniel Colascione' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 04:06:23 -0000 > Stefan might be right that it would be difficult to get right - dunno. > Off the top of my head, however, I'd guess that just going `uplist' > from point till finding `defface', `defcustom', or `defvar' as the car > might be good enough. C-M-x differs from C-x C-e in two aspects: 1- it "guesses" which sexp is meant. 2- it handles defface/defvar/defcustom specially. IIUC you're only worried about the first partt o the extent that it prevents you from getting to the second. I.e. what you're after is a way to get (2) of C-M-x for sexps where (1) currently fails. I'm not very much in fa vor of trying to make (1) smarter because it will make it less uniform. So we could maybe provide a new command half-way between C-x C-e and C-M-x, or maybe change (1) so that it uses the region if active. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 23:13:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlC2f-0001Ki-Vd for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38754) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC2d-0001Jn-HS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC2X-0004vV-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:31 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37974) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC2X-0004vR-NH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:25 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC2W-00048P-Vi; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:13:24 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Carsten Mattner In-reply-to: (message from Carsten Mattner on Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:36:50 +0100) Subject: Re: Updating copyright years References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5te8b09.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 04:13:32 -0000 With a well-known license such as the > GPL, it's really not necessary to provide a copy of the license from a > legal point of view Actually it is a requirement: the GPL says you must include a copy of the GPL when you distribute a GPL-covered work. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 11 23:15:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlC4S-0002KS-Re for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:15:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59091) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC4P-0002Jw-SA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:15:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC4O-0006Jq-Dm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:15:21 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:39716) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC4O-0006Ja-9V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:15:20 -0500 Received: from c-24-18-179-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.18.179.193] helo=[192.168.1.2]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RlC4L-0004Wm-DE; Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:15:17 -0800 Message-ID: <4F0E5E4F.300@dancol.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:15:11 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig32D95ECB1488FD5F119DFAED" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 96.126.100.184 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 04:15:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig32D95ECB1488FD5F119DFAED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/11/12 8:05 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Stefan might be right that it would be difficult to get right - dunno.= >> Off the top of my head, however, I'd guess that just going `uplist' >> from point till finding `defface', `defcustom', or `defvar' as the car= >> might be good enough. >=20 > C-M-x differs from C-x C-e in two aspects: > 1- it "guesses" which sexp is meant. > 2- it handles defface/defvar/defcustom specially. > IIUC you're only worried about the first partt o the extent that it > prevents you from getting to the second. I.e. what you're after is > a way to get (2) of C-M-x for sexps where (1) currently fails. What about replacing 2 with something like this? (Untested) =3D=3D=3D modified file 'src/eval.c' --- src/eval.c 2011-12-04 15:46:07 +0000 +++ src/eval.c 2012-01-12 04:12:30 +0000 @@ -827,7 +827,7 @@ SDATA (SYMBOL_NAME (sym))); } - if (NILP (tem)) + if (NILP (tem) || EQ (Vthis_command, Qeval_defun)) Fset_default (sym, eval_sub (Fcar (tail))); else { /* Check if there is really a global binding rather than just a let and similarly for defface and defcustom. --------------enig32D95ECB1488FD5F119DFAED Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAk8OXk8ACgkQ17c2LVA10VsSqgCg0QeKU7zwD/dzmwJ6kTBHeyio u/kAoNxF97dS+nbmFp+DGc84NUcWUwMF =3erH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig32D95ECB1488FD5F119DFAED-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 00:23:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlD8Y-0001Ay-UK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:23:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40257) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlD8W-0001AG-F4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:23:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlD8V-0007cn-Ai for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:23:40 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:53665) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlD8U-0007Up-Q9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:23:39 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756B39707E9; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:23:30 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3EEFC1A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:23:30 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:23:30 +0900 Message-ID: <87pqep8pf1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:23:41 -0000 Drew Adams writes: > Why not let `C-M-x' re-evaluate a "defun" (defcustom, defface, > etc.) that is not necessarily at top level? E.g., with point on, > say, `defface' in this sexp, why shouldn't `C-M-x' redefine the > face? I don't see any reason in the `when' you're talking about, but in many cases such forms will refer to let-bound variables and the like, and the results there could be rather confusing. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 01:34:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlEEy-0001XN-Bk for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:34:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54479) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEEw-0001WQ-7W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:34:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEEu-000106-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:34:22 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:43091) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEEt-0000zo-VR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:34:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEEr-0003Zg-8Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:17 +0100 Received: from 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net ([77.197.77.121]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:17 +0100 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:00 +0100 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <87fwflsa3r.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:7D/3O+seUgwcdzcIBIlMExPd7b0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 06:34:23 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> Stefan might be right that it would be difficult to get right - dunno. >> Off the top of my head, however, I'd guess that just going `uplist' >> from point till finding `defface', `defcustom', or `defvar' as the car >> might be good enough. > > C-M-x differs from C-x C-e in two aspects: > 1- it "guesses" which sexp is meant. > 2- it handles defface/defvar/defcustom specially. > IIUC you're only worried about the first partt o the extent that it > prevents you from getting to the second. I.e. what you're after is > a way to get (2) of C-M-x for sexps where (1) currently fails. > > I'm not very much in fa vor of trying to make (1) smarter because it > will make it less uniform. So we could maybe provide a new command > half-way between C-x C-e and C-M-x, or maybe change (1) so that it uses > the region if active. With anything, you can put point in any sexp of a block an eval it. If needed you can edit it in minibuffer to provide a result. Here cursor is on the let sexp and i hit `C-u C-:' and then edit it to have a value for 'a' and 'b'. (defun foo (a b) -!-(let ((c (+ a b))) (+ a b c))) http://tinyurl.com/739svnv -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 01:53:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlEXD-00068Q-4S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:53:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46091) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEX5-00068H-Fx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:53:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEWz-00040g-Vy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:53:07 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:60132) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlEWz-0003zR-Io; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 01:53:01 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4266F9707E9; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:52:53 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 10BC61A29FF; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:52:53 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Updating copyright years In-Reply-To: References: <37vcoprbco.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <86lipfp1vd.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <87lipe9wy0.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y5te8b09.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:52:53 +0900 Message-ID: <87k44x8la2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Carsten Mattner , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 06:53:13 -0000 Richard Stallman writes: > With a well-known license such as the > > GPL, it's really not necessary to provide a copy of the license from a > > legal point of view > > Actually it is a requirement: the GPL says you must include a copy of > the GPL when you distribute a GPL-covered work. You're right, I should have been more precise. I meant that U.S. law does not require it, although a particular license may. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 05:36:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlI1d-00080m-Nn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:36:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51217) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlI1X-00080b-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:36:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlI1W-0004RZ-9M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:36:47 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:59272 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlI1W-0004RO-5I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:36:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC491451C794; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 02:35:51 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Organization: JURTA References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:30:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:05:56 -0500") Message-ID: <87aa5t9qze.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: 'Daniel Colascione' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:36:52 -0000 > I'm not very much in favor of trying to make (1) smarter because it > will make it less uniform. So we could maybe provide a new command > half-way between C-x C-e and C-M-x, or maybe change (1) so that it uses > the region if active. (if (use-region-p) (eval-region (region-beginning) (region-end)) ...) in `eval-defun' (`C-M-x') would be a nice addition since `eval-region' has no own keybinding. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 08:43:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlKw2-00073j-61 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:43:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60058) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlKvw-00072l-HX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:43:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlKvs-0002ph-Hr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:43:12 -0500 Received: from essmail.ess.niu.edu ([131.156.1.18]:48872) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlKvs-0002pY-Dm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:43:08 -0500 Received: from regnitz (lukas.physics.niu.edu [131.156.85.221]) by essmail.ess.niu.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0CDh239006585; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:43:03 -0600 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20238.58214.589922.778218@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:43:02 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: buffer-local keymaps X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.0.92.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 131.156.1.18 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:43:16 -0000 A proper solution of bug#10254 (a bug in lisp/textmodes/bibtex.el) requires that bibtex-mode uses not only buffer-local variables but also buffer-local keymaps (for buffer-local menus). What is the best way to implement this? Is it possible to define a default keymap for the buffer-local keymaps similar to the default value of buffer-local variables? Or is it necessary that every BibTeX buffer uses a buffer-local keymap that is a child keymap of some default keymap? (In this context, what is the equivalent of kill-local-variable?) Or do I better use yet some other approach? Thanks. Roland From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 10:21:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlMTC-0007ga-M1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:21:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44999) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMT9-0007ZV-Ic for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:21:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMT5-00032V-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:21:35 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:43998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMT5-00032N-7a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:21:31 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CFLMqC007116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:21:22 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CFLJtq024548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:21:21 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CFLH9v007525; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:21:18 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:21:17 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org><5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:21:12 -0800 Message-ID: <612677F816BD4F53AB97D9A36F9DF93B@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczQ34vhW5vDybwFTwChjkItigkb/QAWrHHg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F0EFA73.0029,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , 'Daniel Colascione' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:21:36 -0000 > > Off the top of my head, however, I'd guess that just going `uplist' > > from point till finding `defface', `defcustom', or `defvar' > > as the car might be good enough. > > C-M-x differs from C-x C-e in two aspects: > 1- it "guesses" which sexp is meant. > 2- it handles defface/defvar/defcustom specially. > IIUC you're only worried about the first partt o the extent that it > prevents you from getting to the second. I.e. what you're after is > a way to get (2) of C-M-x for sexps where (1) currently fails. > > I'm not very much in fa vor of trying to make (1) smarter because it > will make it less uniform. So we could maybe provide a new command > half-way between C-x C-e and C-M-x, or maybe change (1) so > that it uses the region if active. Yes, on all accounts. You understood correctly, and I agree that this could be on a different key. Needing to activate a region doesn't sound to me like a great way to distinguish the behaviors. But I'm probably OK with any way of providing the feature. Another possibility could be to respect different prefix args in different ways (edebug vs this feature). But the simplest solution is likely having a separate command/key. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 10:29:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlMar-0004W2-Oo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMam-0004Uq-BE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMal-0004TJ-1z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:28 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:54130) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMak-0004TF-P3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:27 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTOj0000340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:25 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTNXj013480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:24 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CFTNbt010496; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:29:23 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:22 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" , References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org><5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> <87fwflsa3r.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:19 -0800 Message-ID: <5EE4D15C6F794FFD809CEC03AC1C14A1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87fwflsa3r.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AczQ9DxZn1ry+iE+RFC9B2qjCc0axQAR4JgQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F0EFC55.0056,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:32 -0000 > With anything, you can put point in any sexp of a block an eval it. > If needed you can edit it in minibuffer to provide a result. > Here cursor is on the let sexp and i hit `C-u C-:' and then edit it to > have a value for 'a' and 'b'. > > (defun foo (a b) > -!-(let ((c (+ a b))) (+ a b c))) See my earlier message and my reply to Stephen T. 1. The question is not about whether there are handy ways to edit a subexpression and evaluate it. It's about hitting a key to redefine a face or var, regardless of where the face or var definition is (column 0 or not). Mere evaluation does not _redefine_ a face or var - it does nothing to a defface, defcustom, or defvar if the face or var has already been defined. 2. Wrt someone trying to eval (with or without redefinition) a sexp that is incomplete because it depends on stuff outside it (e.g., `a', `b' in your example), sure, you could edit to could complete it. But typically for an incomplete defface, defcustom, or defvar form, the best behavior is to let Emacs complain (error). Typically, asking for its eval/redefinition just represents user error. Anyway, the question I raised is not how we might simplify editing for evaluating a subform. It's about having a key that redefines faces and variables. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 10:29:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlMau-0004ge-VC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53640) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMan-0004Ut-BF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMaj-0004T6-6s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:29 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:54107) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMaj-0004T1-0M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:25 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTNGG000324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:23 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTMoa029661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:22 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CFTLg0010470; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:29:21 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:21 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stephen J. Turnbull'" References: <87pqep8pf1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:16 -0800 Message-ID: <1ED66B7B69E8459484ACC575EC977EA1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87pqep8pf1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Thread-Index: AczQ6lQs4qzRJNCLRLqociMHRyvNZQAUIxiw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F0EFC53.00E0,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:35 -0000 > > Why not let `C-M-x' re-evaluate a "defun" (defcustom, defface, > > etc.) that is not necessarily at top level? E.g., with point on, > > say, `defface' in this sexp, why shouldn't `C-M-x' redefine the > > face? > > I don't see any reason in the `when' you're talking about, but in many > cases such forms will refer to let-bound variables and the like, and > the results there could be rather confusing. I already addressed that: >> I wouldn't have a problem with `C-M-x' trying to evaluate >> and redefine it, if that's what the users asked for. That >> would in some cases raise an error (e.g. embedded `,' or `,@'), or a variable let-bound outside, or any number of other things that depend on an outer context... >> but that's not a problem, IMO. The user would be in control >> (it's on demand, the user positions point, etc.). and >> That doesn't mean that all such contexts would necessarily be >> valid face or var definitions. But again, this is interactive >> and visible. The user would be in control, asking for it with >> point where it is etc. You would get what you ask for. We can disagree. I don't think it would be a problem. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 10:29:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlMax-0004oK-7j for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53669) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMar-0004Vh-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMan-0004Tj-BF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:33 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlMan-0004TZ-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:29:29 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTLSN019202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:21 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CFTI5r014706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:19 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CFTHeH010434; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:29:18 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.187) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:17 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" , "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org><5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> <87aa5t9qze.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:29:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87aa5t9qze.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Thread-Index: AczRFhgOEViROv7lQde7eSXbp7JImgAJ+YLA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F0EFC52.004D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Daniel Colascione' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:29:38 -0000 > > I'm not very much in favor of trying to make (1) smarter because it > > will make it less uniform. So we could maybe provide a new command > > half-way between C-x C-e and C-M-x, or maybe change (1) so > > that it uses the region if active. > > (if (use-region-p) (eval-region (region-beginning) (region-end)) ...) > in `eval-defun' (`C-M-x') would be a nice addition since `eval-region' > has no own keybinding. Again, this is not about `eval-region', which _does not redefine_ a face or var that is already defined. It's about the special behavior provided by `eval-defun' which does redefine. And I'm interested in a redefining command/key, not making the user activate the region around a sub-sexp before asking for redefinition. A command/key can find the innermost defface etc. surrounding point without any need for the user to first select it as the region. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:00:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlN4X-0002yP-Ge for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:00:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52567) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlN4Q-0002vw-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:00:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlN4L-0002AA-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:00:06 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:37040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlN4C-00027r-Uk; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:59:53 -0500 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0CFxoZc006910; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:59:51 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7782F5945E; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:59:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: buffer-local keymaps Message-ID: References: <20238.58214.589922.778218@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:59:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20238.58214.589922.778218@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:43:02 -0600") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4099=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4099> : streams <719037> : uri <1045508> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:00:12 -0000 > A proper solution of bug#10254 (a bug in lisp/textmodes/bibtex.el) > requires that bibtex-mode uses not only buffer-local variables but > also buffer-local keymaps (for buffer-local menus). There are many different ways to answer this question I think. If the differences are limited to menus, you can use a single keymap and rely on things like :filter, :enable, ... to dynamically adapt the menu's content to the buffer's state. Otherwise, you can simply use-local-map with a different map in each buffer (I'd expect those maps to share a common ancestor, of course). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:10:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNEj-0004te-Tf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:10:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50341) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNEg-0004rw-JE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:10:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNEf-0004X3-Ea for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:10:42 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f48.google.com ([209.85.216.48]:48685) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNEf-0004Wz-Be for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:10:41 -0500 Received: by qadz30 with SMTP id z30so422559qad.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:10:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VJf6HB1jspg2EpCWOD+BSf5tWIMmmz7allFjZa46aEI=; b=JZzz7Dms0UUBdNiYxPsrgTgnF8nzZjTCgWXiTPHb5xsDb6u6fKHeYA9Dc7B0OZDdk2 xtdBOfWJh6hgwdMHm6dBsQE90XTSRPwGQRIIf3KKnbtJYp7i+ldCxAI4zKVGnv8vsSkV ZBIEI0AevYPrfyFeLWjvdc/wXuK59Bq+OjhzE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.214.201 with SMTP id hb9mr6324560qab.86.1326384640825; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.120.138 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:10:40 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: unobstrusive way to show indentation From: Le Wang To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fb2035a177f04b656fd61 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.216.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:10:43 -0000 --20cf300fb2035a177f04b656fd61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, How difficult would it be to implement some way to show indentation levels in an unobstrusive way? Sublime text and other modern editors do this by drawing a thin vertical line down from (back-to-indentation). I find it really helpful when reading code. This stackoverflow question clarifies what I'm after, although I didn't ask it. I find this really helpful when reading a piece of code with many block levels, especially since the standard indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces. I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, but that would be more obstrusive than a thin line. Maybe there is another solution I haven't thought of? -- Le --20cf300fb2035a177f04b656fd61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

How difficult would it be to implement some way to show indentat= ion levels in an unobstrusive way?=A0 Sublime text and other modern editors= do this by drawing a thin vertical line down from (back-to-indentation).= =A0 I find it really helpful when reading code.=A0 This stackoverflow quest= ion clarifies what I'm after, although I didn't ask it.=A0 I find t= his really helpful when reading a piece of code with many block levels, esp= ecially since the standard indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces.

I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, but that w= ould be more obstrusive than a thin line.=A0 Maybe there is another solutio= n I haven't thought of?

--
Le
--20cf300fb2035a177f04b656fd61-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:12:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNGs-0005VM-OP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:12:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50705) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNGk-0005Ru-Ve for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:12:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNGj-0004q6-KS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:12:50 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:51052) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNGj-0004pz-I8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:12:49 -0500 Received: by qats34 with SMTP id s34so224926qat.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:12:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=y+AzPx9z+ijBxUHszVvVR8v3kmOAue17FovqUC5vYuU=; b=VUbfJHmFCde8Q37ew/KREtSJjH2LyvWxv8I/sJwrjZmoxPNuzUJTnc/naZxXXd3n5X QHW+Lo1QC1RHI4HZ7E9SRAuXUZsq9cvDaDXyXc49FVMrhHb8iw8SwfvS6nKAjldyqvdS Cxg5/jv7sQcl1EPfyNwRdM6XZsTLNeaKnfKZg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.18.83 with SMTP id v19mr6454183qaa.60.1326384768877; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.120.138 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:12:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:12:48 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: unobstrusive way to show indentation From: Le Wang To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51ba2adfc044504b6570411 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:12:57 -0000 --bcaec51ba2adfc044504b6570411 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Oops. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8836336/sublime-text-2-like-block-highlighting-in-emacs On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Le Wang wrote: > Hi, > > How difficult would it be to implement some way to show indentation levels > in an unobstrusive way? Sublime text and other modern editors do this by > drawing a thin vertical line down from (back-to-indentation). I find it > really helpful when reading code. This stackoverflow question clarifies > what I'm after, although I didn't ask it. I find this really helpful when > reading a piece of code with many block levels, especially since the > standard indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces. > > I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, but that > would be more obstrusive than a thin line. Maybe there is another solution > I haven't thought of? > > -- > Le > -- Le --bcaec51ba2adfc044504b6570411 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops.=A0 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/883= 6336/sublime-text-2-like-block-highlighting-in-emacs

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Le Wang <l26wang@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

How difficult would it be to implement some way to show indentat= ion levels in an unobstrusive way?=A0 Sublime text and other modern editors= do this by drawing a thin vertical line down from (back-to-indentation).= =A0 I find it really helpful when reading code.=A0 This stackoverflow quest= ion clarifies what I'm after, although I didn't ask it.=A0 I find t= his really helpful when reading a piece of code with many block levels, esp= ecially since the standard indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces.

I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, but that w= ould be more obstrusive than a thin line.=A0 Maybe there is another solutio= n I haven't thought of?<= br clear=3D"all">
--
Le



--
Le
--bcaec51ba2adfc044504b6570411-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:25:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNT9-0000ws-GA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:25:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58653) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNSy-0000pC-Cl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:25:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNSs-0007tZ-Md for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:25:28 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:18329) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNSs-0007tP-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:25:22 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CGPEkV020989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:25:14 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CGPDeb027560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:25:13 GMT Received: from abhmt115.oracle.com (abhmt115.oracle.com [141.146.116.67]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CGPCr5023392; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:25:12 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:25:12 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org><4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org><5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> <612677F816BD4F53AB97D9A36F9DF93B@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:25:11 -0800 Message-ID: <77BCC4C254904FBE9B2298F0B07F88BE@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <612677F816BD4F53AB97D9A36F9DF93B@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: AczQ34vhW5vDybwFTwChjkItigkb/QAWrHHgAALBSyA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F0F096B.0052,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: 'Juri Linkov' , 'Daniel Colascione' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:25:36 -0000 > Another possibility could be to respect different prefix args > in different ways (edebug vs this feature). But the simplest > solution is likely having a separate command/key. 1. It just occurred to me that edebug instrumentation is only for functions, and the redefinition feature I'm talking about is only for faces and vars. So presumably there would be no need to distinguish different kinds of prefix args. We could let a prefix arg mean to either redefine the innermost face/var definition containing point, if any, or instrument the column-0 defun (what it does now). In the not-so-common context of a def(face|custom|var) that is inside a defun that you want to instrument for edebug, the behavior of a prefix arg would differ depending on the position of point. Whether that case is common enough to warrant requiring different prefix-arg values to distinguish the two, I don't know (I doubt it). 2. Another possibility: let `C-M-x' inside a def(face|custom|var) always redefine it (i.e., without a prefix arg). That would mean that to make `C-M-x' eval a sexp starting in column 0, point would need to be outside any sub-sexp that is a def(face|custom|var). (But I repeat that I'm OK with having a separate command/key for this, not `C-M-x'.) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:35:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNcj-0003Qj-IQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46413) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNcc-0003Qc-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNcb-0001YM-M8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:26 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:33415) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNcb-0001YE-E4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:25 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A7A9707E9; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:35:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BC18C1A2746; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:35:22 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Le Wang Subject: unobstrusive way to show indentation In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:35:22 +0900 Message-ID: <87ty407ub9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:35:32 -0000 Le Wang writes: > I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, but that would > be more obstrusive than a thin line. In XEmacs you can use a background pixmap; make the pixmap a thin line and there you go. ISTR Emacs supports background pixmaps too, so this should be possible, but I can't help you with the code since the APIs are rather different. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:39:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNgq-0003qy-7A for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:39:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53954) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNgn-0003qo-Nc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:39:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNgh-0002Kz-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:39:45 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:42026) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNgh-0002Ku-Nn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:39:39 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0CGdbWG009146 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:39:37 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0CGdajA005346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:39:36 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0CGdaDp020397; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:39:36 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:39:36 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Le Wang'" , References: Subject: RE: unobstrusive way to show indentation Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:39:35 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczRRRCy2J+1tscFTIi7gk4oOS8XtAAAplAg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F0F0CCA.0025,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:39:47 -0000 > How difficult would it be to implement some way to show > indentation levels in an unobstrusive way? Sublime text > and other modern editors do this by drawing a thin > vertical line down from (back-to-indentation). I find it > really helpful when reading code. This stackoverflow > question clarifies what I'm after, although I didn't ask it. > I find this really helpful when reading a piece of code > with many block levels, especially since the standard > indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces. > > I guess it can be faked by changing the face of that column, > but that would be more obstrusive than a thin line. Maybe > there is another solution I haven't thought of? > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8836336/sublime-text-2-like-block-highlightin g-in-emacs It's not quite the same thing, but you get a similar benefit from the features mentioned here: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HighlightCurrentColumn http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/VlineMode Vline can use a thin line (or a face). Column-marker highlighting stays put (doesn't move with the cursor), and you can highlight any number of columns, but it uses a face, not a thin line. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:47:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNo9-00059O-5n for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43388) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNo6-00059E-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNo5-0003eg-IS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:18 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:33632) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNo5-0003eY-5a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:17 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D756E9707E9; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:47:14 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A37A41A2746; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:47:14 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: "Drew Adams" Subject: RE: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? In-Reply-To: <1ED66B7B69E8459484ACC575EC977EA1@us.oracle.com> References: <87pqep8pf1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <1ED66B7B69E8459484ACC575EC977EA1@us.oracle.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:47:14 +0900 Message-ID: <87sjjk7trh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:47:20 -0000 Drew Adams writes: > I already addressed that: > > >> I wouldn't have a problem with `C-M-x' trying to evaluate > >> and redefine it, if that's what the users asked for. That > >> would in some cases raise an error (e.g. embedded `,' or `,@'), > > or a variable let-bound outside, or any number of other things that depend on an > outer context... > > >> but that's not a problem, IMO. The user would be in control > >> (it's on demand, the user positions point, etc.). Well, when I say "confusing" I have in mind situations where the let binding shadows something global. Not that a big deal but like Stefan I'm not a fan of making these functions too smart. I also don't reevaluate deffaces very often; if I'm going to change a face, I generally do it in customize (specifically for reset-to-default which is what I would be most likely to use the facility for) or through direct set-face-* calls. When I'm done fiddling, it's no big deal to change the defface itself. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with changing the defface, whatever works for you is fine. Just that from my point of view it's probably a YAGNI for most people, so why make it so smart? Of course you can argue that the other way (ie, "well, so why not?!"), but I suspect that won't get past Stefan's mild opposition. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:48:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNpG-0005Vo-CT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:48:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58879) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNTY-0001Cv-Qj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:26:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNTS-000839-6u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:26:04 -0500 Received: from mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.30.67.72]:49311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNTS-00082H-2D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:25:58 -0500 Received: from mail.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.14.4] helo=server-n) by mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNTP-00066H-1i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:25:55 +0100 Received: from aida (unknown [141.30.3.21]) by server-n (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8394EF8E9 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:25:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from jhpark by aida with local (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNTO-0001Ut-H0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:25:54 +0100 From: Jae-hyeon Park To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Simple fix to font-encoding-alist Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:25:54 +0100 Message-ID: <87ehv4rip9.fsf@aida.tu-dresden.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-TUD-Virus-Scanned: mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 141.30.67.72 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:48:29 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:26:10 -0000 Hello, may I draw your attention to an old bug that I reported? http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=5667 The problem is that cursor movement slows down if one uses a bitmap Korean font in the ksx1001 encoding. This still happens with the pretest 24.0.92. I attached a patch that adds one line to fontset.el. I think this fix is simple enough to be incorporated into the pretest. Thanks. Best regards, Jae-hyeon From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:49:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNqg-0005rH-Ih for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:49:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37033) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNqZ-0005r6-Ia for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:49:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNqY-0004R9-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:49:51 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNqY-0004Qy-5a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:49:50 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNqW-0000hY-3q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:49:48 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:49:48 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:49:48 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: lexical-binding rationale? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:35 -0500 Lines: 13 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:huRro/VCmV4GG9ylaHugizJ6Jd8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:49:57 -0000 I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis of a variable's value? Thanks, -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 11:52:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlNtK-0007Mp-Gv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:52:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNtH-0007M7-P6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:52:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNtB-0004tJ-B1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:52:39 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:54140) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNtB-0004tD-63 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:52:33 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlNtA-0002Kg-HA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:52:32 +0100 Received: from 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net ([77.197.77.121]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:52:32 +0100 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:52:32 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: pcomplete/find and pcomplete/hg Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:52:10 +0100 Lines: 7 Message-ID: <87ehv4n9s5.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 121.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1eqz/GMqIpeh4ZZVjpzAAdApdj0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:52:40 -0000 Hi, where is the good place to include these functions? pcmpl-gnu.el ? -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 12:04:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlO4p-0007IE-JF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:04:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60851) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlO4l-0007HV-Oq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:04:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlO4f-0007OB-4W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:04:31 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59117) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlO4e-0007O5-UK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:04:25 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlO4Z-00017o-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:04:19 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:04:19 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:04:19 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:56:27 -0500 Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <87pqep8pf1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <1ED66B7B69E8459484ACC575EC977EA1@us.oracle.com> <87sjjk7trh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:12NN6ZNjLOpSmzI+mtElJXwYV0g= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:04:33 -0000 on Thu Jan 12 2012, "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > Drew Adams writes: > > > I already addressed that: > > > > >> I wouldn't have a problem with `C-M-x' trying to evaluate > > >> and redefine it, if that's what the users asked for. That > > >> would in some cases raise an error (e.g. embedded `,' or `,@'), > > > > or a variable let-bound outside, or any number of other things that depend on an > > outer context... > > > > >> but that's not a problem, IMO. The user would be in control > > >> (it's on demand, the user positions point, etc.). > > Well, when I say "confusing" I have in mind situations where the let > binding shadows something global. Not that a big deal but like Stefan > I'm not a fan of making these functions too smart. In terms of surprise and consistency, I think we're far better off with the other behavior. I'm thinking of: (let ((...)) (load-library "xxx")) ; <--- defuns in here are don't see the bindings. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 12:10:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlOAR-0008GT-GD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:10:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57975) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlOAK-0008GE-Jy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:10:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlOAI-0008UD-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:10:16 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36205) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlOAH-0008U9-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:10:14 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlOAF-0004Yq-8T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:10:11 +0100 Received: from 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.223.249]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:10:11 +0100 Received: from dave by 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:10:11 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: Why is `C-M-x' only for top-level defuns? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:52:40 -0500 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <87zkdtdbk1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4F0E4835.1030106@dancol.org> <5115ABD13D084717AA639D79BCCE9753@us.oracle.com> <612677F816BD4F53AB97D9A36F9DF93B@us.oracle.com> <77BCC4C254904FBE9B2298F0B07F88BE@us.oracle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LG2IgZVXxC6eRRskjxlTViAy2qc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:10:22 -0000 on Thu Jan 12 2012, "Drew Adams" wrote: >> Another possibility could be to respect different prefix args >> in different ways (edebug vs this feature). But the simplest >> solution is likely having a separate command/key. > > 1. It just occurred to me that edebug instrumentation is only for functions, and > the redefinition feature I'm talking about is only for faces and vars. > > So presumably there would be no need to distinguish different kinds of prefix > args. We could let a prefix arg mean to either redefine the innermost face/var > definition containing point, if any, or instrument the column-0 defun (what it > does now). > > In the not-so-common context of a def(face|custom|var) that is inside a defun > that you want to instrument for edebug, the behavior of a prefix arg would > differ depending on the position of point. Whether that case is common enough > to warrant requiring different prefix-arg values to distinguish the two, I don't > know (I doubt it). > > 2. Another possibility: let `C-M-x' inside a def(face|custom|var) always > redefine it (i.e., without a prefix arg). That would mean that to make `C-M-x' > eval a sexp starting in column 0, point would need to be outside any sub-sexp > that is a def(face|custom|var). > > (But I repeat that I'm OK with having a separate command/key for this, not > `C-M-x'.) I just wanna say: I've always wanted the behavior Drew is proposing (for edebug-defun, eval-defun, and xxx-defun in general) and despite the fact that I should know better by now, I am surprised every time these functions go all the way to the outermost sexp. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 13:08:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlP4F-0006sB-4U for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:08:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53146) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlP44-0006qy-LI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:08:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlP42-0000xk-31 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:07:52 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:60067 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlP41-0000xR-Qo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:07:50 -0500 Received: (qmail 84207 invoked by uid 3782); 12 Jan 2012 18:07:46 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD955673B.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.103.59]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:07:45 +0100 Received: (qmail 3590 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Jan 2012 18:01:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:01:10 +0000 To: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Message-ID: <20120112180109.GA3132@acm.acm> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:08:02 -0000 On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:47:35AM -0500, Dave Abrahams wrote: Request for clarification: > I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to > respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for > dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis > of a variable's value? What, exactly does "dynamically altering" mean? What is the "fundamental language behaviour" which is being/to be dynamically altered. What precise relationship has been abstracted to "on the basis of"? Which "variable's value" is meant here. Or, more succinctly, what the heck are you going on about? > Thanks, > -- > Dave Abrahams -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 13:50:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlPjg-0002Nk-Nq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41770) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPjZ-0002NZ-5o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPjR-0000NF-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:45 -0500 Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.212.41]:59112) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPjR-0000N0-IR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:37 -0500 Received: by vbnl22 with SMTP id l22so691929vbn.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.66.99 with SMTP id e3mr2200567vdt.125.1326394236371; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hj10sm5096921vdb.0.2012.01.12.10.50.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id E1A0C1F2FF1E; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:33 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: <20120112180109.GA3132@acm.acm> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:50:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20120112180109.GA3132@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:01:10 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:50:50 -0000 on Thu Jan 12 2012, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:47:35AM -0500, Dave Abrahams wrote: > > Request for clarification: > >> I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to >> respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for >> dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis >> of a variable's value? > > What, exactly does "dynamically altering" mean? Sorry, that's a very dangerous term developed in secret at the U.S. Department of Redundancy Department. Let's just say, "altering" > What is the "fundamental language behaviour" which is being/to be > dynamically altered. > What precise relationship has been abstracted to "on the basis of"? > Which "variable's value" is meant here. My understanding is that Emacs is using a buffer-local variable called `lexical-binding' to determine whether variable bindings shall be dynamic or lexical. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 14:05:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlPxs-0007Ie-K6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:05:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53325) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPxp-0007GW-Mk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:05:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPoV-0002OS-OY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:55:55 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:23629 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlPoV-0002Mm-0g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:55:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 87545 invoked by uid 3782); 12 Jan 2012 18:55:48 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD955673B.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.103.59]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:55:46 +0100 Received: (qmail 3700 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Jan 2012 18:49:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:49:10 +0000 To: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Message-ID: <20120112184910.GB3132@acm.acm> References: <20120112180109.GA3132@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:05:30 -0000 On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 01:50:33PM -0500, Dave Abrahams wrote: > on Thu Jan 12 2012, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:47:35AM -0500, Dave Abrahams wrote: > > Request for clarification: > >> I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to > >> respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for > >> dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the > >> basis of a variable's value? > > What, exactly does "dynamically altering" mean? > Sorry, that's a very dangerous term developed in secret at the > U.S. Department of Redundancy Department. > Let's just say, "altering" > > What is the "fundamental language behaviour" which is being/to be > > dynamically altered. > > What precise relationship has been abstracted to "on the basis of"? > > Which "variable's value" is meant here. > My understanding is that Emacs is using a buffer-local variable called > `lexical-binding' to determine whether variable bindings shall be > dynamic or lexical. OK, got you now! Thanks. > -- > Dave Abrahams -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 14:09:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlQ1E-0000mz-NC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:09:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54862) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlQ19-0000kw-K4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:08:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlQ18-0006Tm-2z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:08:55 -0500 Received: from essmail.ess.niu.edu ([131.156.1.18]:55023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlQ17-0006TP-V4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:08:54 -0500 Received: from regnitz (lukas.physics.niu.edu [131.156.85.221]) by essmail.ess.niu.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0CJ8mLC016301; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:08:50 -0600 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20239.12224.814237.491301@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:08:48 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: buffer-local keymaps In-Reply-To: References: <20238.58214.589922.778218@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.0.92.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 131.156.1.18 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:08:59 -0000 On Thu Jan 12 2012 Stefan Monnier wrote: > > A proper solution of bug#10254 (a bug in lisp/textmodes/bibtex.el) > > requires that bibtex-mode uses not only buffer-local variables but > > also buffer-local keymaps (for buffer-local menus). > > There are many different ways to answer this question I think. > If the differences are limited to menus, you can use a single keymap and > rely on things like :filter, :enable, ... to dynamically adapt the > menu's content to the buffer's state. Thanks! Yes, menus are all I have in mind. So such adaption of a single keymap might be a better solution ... > Otherwise, you can simply use-local-map with a different map in each > buffer (I'd expect those maps to share a common ancestor, of course). ... than local keymaps. I'll look into this. Roland From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 15:51:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlRce-0000xZ-VZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59212) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRcc-0000vw-3e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRca-0007g8-Qp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:56752) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRca-0007g0-PI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:40 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRcZ-0005ec-MU; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:39 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: X-Spook: AVIP lynch diwn Ft. Bragg AFSPC FTS2000 cracking pipeline X-Ran: 8bS{T]DrL*P^88~:Zm$@d` (Dave Abrahams's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:35 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:51:43 -0000 Dave Abrahams wrote: > I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to > respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for > dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis > of a variable's value? It's easy to use on a per-file basis, and in the majority of cases allows the source to be transparently backwards compatible with older/other versions of Emacs; so why not. Since it's a fait accompli, discussing alternative ways it might have been done are only going to be of academic interest. I never did get an answer to my question about whether the setting HAS to go in the first line of the file though. I still don't know. http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8610#8 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 15:53:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlReY-0001Ny-En for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59605) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlReW-0001Nq-8R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlReV-000831-AE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:40 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:56797) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlReV-00082Y-7R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:39 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlReU-0005nb-Q7; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:38 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Minor inconsistency in header of a few admin/grammars files X-Spook: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ASPIC blackjack emc SEAL Team 6 Medco X-Ran: 'hA/ZnsC{#9&Bj-S-Ycg~CD]h!iKo9W1*1R+PF44c}:Z_'`z"V&&0IOApah51_RZf(sBXH X-Hue: blue X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:38 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:53:41 -0000 A minor issue (perhaps): admin/grammars/python.wy lisp/cedet/semantic/wisent/python-wy.el say The Python grammar is used and reproduced under the following license: PYTHON SOFTWARE FOUNDATION LICENSE VERSION 2 [...] ...PSF's notice of copyright, i.e., "Copyright (c) 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 Python Software Foundation; All Rights Reserved" are retained in Python alone or in any derivative version prepared by Licensee. However, the headers of these files actually say: Copyright (C) 2001-2010 Python Software Foundation which is the same in spirit but not in letter. I'm literal-minded, so I'd be inclined to make the appropriate minor adjustment to wisent-make-parsers--parser-file-name and update these headers. I know it has zero practical consequences. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 15:59:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlRk8-00042D-Kd for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:59:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38356) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRk6-0003vN-3O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:59:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRk5-0000ui-45 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:59:26 -0500 Received: from li281-170.members.linode.com ([173.255.255.170]:34658 helo=parlementum.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlRk4-0000ty-Ij for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:59:25 -0500 Received: from linux.local (cpe-071-077-203-175.ec.res.rr.com [71.77.203.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: tekk) by parlementum.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83AAFF229D for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:59:18 -0500 (EST) From: Tekk To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: M-x print-buffer behaves poorly in docview Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 173.255.255.170 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:59:27 -0000 One would expect print-buffer while viewing a pdf in docview to print the pdf, however it prints the actual literal file contents of it(as you would see on C-c in that buffer.) This certainly seems like the incorrect way of handling things. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 17:00:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlSgz-0003Qi-1h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40991) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlSgw-0003Qa-1L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlSgu-0002ix-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:14 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:39424) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlSgn-0002fe-PI; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:05 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0CM02vv002810; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:02 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 16A94B40FA; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:02 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:51:39 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4099=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4099> : streams <719107> : uri <1045674> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Dave Abrahams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:00:15 -0000 >> I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to >> respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for >> dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis >> of a variable's value? > It's easy to use on a per-file basis, and in the majority of cases > allows the source to be transparently backwards compatible with > older/other versions of Emacs; so why not. Since it's a fait accompli, > discussing alternative ways it might have been done are only going to be > of academic interest. > I never did get an answer to my question about whether the setting HAS > to go in the first line of the file though. I still don't know. > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8610#8 The intention is that it should work like any other file-local setting so it can go in the end as well, but I haven't checked that lisp_file_lexically_bound_p handles that cases correctly. If it doesn't, then the file would be mis-handled when loading it uncompiled (which is the only case where lisp_file_lexically_bound_p is used). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 12 22:32:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlXs3-0006ij-Gf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:32:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59035) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlXrz-0006dR-Iy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:32:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlXry-0000Vp-GS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:31:59 -0500 Received: from ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.145]:19998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlXry-0000VY-5d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:31:58 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ar4FAKSjD0920WIq/2dsb2JhbABDnHiBao4ugQaBcgEBBAE6HAYdEAEKNBIjFh4GHIdxCKYrhy8/iHiMHQSKSopEklA Received: from ppp118-209-98-42.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO dirac.rather.puzzling.org) ([118.209.98.42]) by ipmail06.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 13 Jan 2012 14:01:54 +1030 Received: from tconnors (helo=localhost) by dirac.rather.puzzling.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RlXrt-0007Fa-It; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:53 +1100 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:53 +1100 (EST) From: Tim Connors Sender: tconnors@rather.puzzling.org To: Drew Adams Subject: RE: unobstrusive way to show indentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 150.101.137.145 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Le Wang' X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:32:00 -0000 On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Drew Adams wrote: > > How difficult would it be to implement some way to show > > indentation levels in an unobstrusive way? Sublime text > > and other modern editors do this by drawing a thin > > vertical line down from (back-to-indentation). I find it > > really helpful when reading code. This stackoverflow > > question clarifies what I'm after, although I didn't ask it. > > I find this really helpful when reading a piece of code > > with many block levels, especially since the standard > > indentation level for ruby is 2 spaces. ... > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8836336/sublime-text-2-like-block-highlightin > g-in-emacs ... > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HighlightCurrentColumn > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/VlineMode ... Thanks. Found vline a bit slow though - slowed down cursor movement a lot despite adjusting timer values (which seemed to be ignored - but maybe I was meant to touch them before initialising the library). But col-highlight is neat enough. Looks like sublime does it quite nicely. I wonder if someone with more elisp-fu than myself wants to go ahead and try to reproduce it :) -- Tim Connors From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 00:17:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlZWV-0004eN-Te for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlZWQ-0004e2-4u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlZWN-0005RM-8Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36121) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlZWN-0005R8-56 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:47 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlZWM-0002tn-Iw; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:46 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Abrahams In-reply-to: (message from Dave Abrahams on Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:47:35 -0500) Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 05:17:54 -0000 I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis of a variable's value? It has to be specified somehow, so how would you suggest? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 02:55:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlbyq-0005Lu-OL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlbyj-0005Lj-GM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlbyd-0000r7-SK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:38345) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlbyd-0000qq-NA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:07 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlbyb-0007Ig-Sq; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:06 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: X-Spook: Bin Laden Jiang Zemin ISEC ASPIC Abbas doctrine hackers X-Ran: =csVjl[.xA\motiP|;y{ry#l1%Khr-ddpToP:3S8/P/uw^_AD(.A, X-Hue: red X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:00:01 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: Dave Abrahams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:55:18 -0000 Stefan Monnier wrote: > The intention is that it should work like any other file-local setting > so it can go in the end as well, but I haven't checked that > lisp_file_lexically_bound_p handles that cases correctly. Just from looking at it, it sure looks like it doesn't. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 03:27:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlcUG-0007zt-JY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:27:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57177) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlcUE-0007zn-GO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:27:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlcUD-0004u3-Mz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:27:46 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45342) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlcUD-0004ty-HT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:27:45 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlcU7-0005ax-Lz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 09:27:39 +0100 Received: from 94-21-19-70.pool.digikabel.hu ([94.21.19.70]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 09:27:39 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 94-21-19-70.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 09:27:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to show virtual buffers like ido does Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:27:26 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 39 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 94.21.19.70 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:27:47 -0000 I see ido now has a virtual buffers option which shows unopened matching buffers from the recent files list: (defcustom ido-use-virtual-buffers nil "If non-nil, refer to past buffers as well as existing ones. Essentially it works as follows: Say you are visiting a file and the buffer gets cleaned up by midnight.el. Later, you want to switch to that buffer, but find it's no longer open. With virtual buffers enabled, the buffer name stays in the buffer list (using the `ido-virtual' face, and always at the end), and if you select it, it opens the file back up again. This allows you to think less about whether recently opened files are still open or not. Most of the time you can quit Emacs, restart, and then switch to a file buffer that was previously open as if it still were." I suggest adding an option to iswitchb to get this behavior. iswitchb does have an option for virtual buffers, but it shows them only if there is no match in the list of open buffers (so if you type "list" then it doesn't show the unopened file "list-test.c" if, say, there is a "list.c" buffer open): (defcustom iswitchb-use-virtual-buffers nil "If non-nil, refer to past buffers when none match. ..." ido's version is much more useful, because it completely blurs the difference between buffer switching and file opening and there is no need to explicitly open files if you want to switch to a recently used file. iswitchb should also support that. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 06:30:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlfLF-0001cC-DF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 06:30:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49164) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlfLC-0001ZP-Cb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 06:30:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlfL6-0007tN-HM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 06:30:38 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:38409) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlfGG-0006rA-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 06:25:33 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so265939lag.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:25:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=kuxXdib03ZYRyE0CEx1mWLZDc8lK3PBwXFQ3apCgfmE=; b=mcW8S4Pw5GXkEXATphQA0okbrHLPGuJajlEVk+8xlEtwvkj05Pv6Aokyj833nwi8lX 7MPt6ncyIRM+nnYVAfwF52NkTWgFP4/DLza6KqD72fLJfrc2or3LSpW9L3rkfyWiDkeF kRmkaiNeG9diCKK5thqfho5InjDxmfXRw/ll0= Received: by 10.152.136.39 with SMTP id px7mr228483lab.2.1326453929146; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:25:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 03:25:08 -0800 (PST) From: Lennart Borgman Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:25:08 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: .json files - should they be associated with som Emacs mode by default? To: Emacs-Devel devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:30:39 -0000 Maybe this is already done in Emacs 24? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 07:04:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlfrv-0006Ky-R7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:04:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34355) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlfrs-0006Hl-Nm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:04:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlfro-0005iX-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:04:24 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36342) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlfrn-0005iH-Rk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:04:20 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlfrm-0003LD-GV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:04:18 +0100 Received: from 85.183.18.158 ([85.183.18.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:04:18 +0100 Received: from rileyrg by 85.183.18.158 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:04:18 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to show virtual buffers like ido does Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:04:04 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.183.18.158 Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:tH7YC2beW/Mu26soc7/nA+vXhGo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:04:25 -0000 Tom writes: > I see ido now has a virtual buffers option which shows unopened > matching buffers from the recent files list: > > (defcustom ido-use-virtual-buffers nil > "If non-nil, refer to past buffers as well as existing ones. > Essentially it works as follows: Say you are visiting a file and > the buffer gets cleaned up by midnight.el. Later, you want to > switch to that buffer, but find it's no longer open. With > virtual buffers enabled, the buffer name stays in the buffer > list (using the `ido-virtual' face, and always at the end), and if > you select it, it opens the file back up again. This allows you > to think less about whether recently opened files are still open > or not. Most of the time you can quit Emacs, restart, and then > switch to a file buffer that was previously open as if it still > were." > > I suggest adding an option to iswitchb to get this behavior. > > iswitchb does have an option for virtual buffers, but it shows > them only if there is no match in the list of open buffers > (so if you type "list" then it doesn't show the unopened > file "list-test.c" if, say, there is a "list.c" buffer open): > > (defcustom iswitchb-use-virtual-buffers nil > "If non-nil, refer to past buffers when none match. > ..." > > ido's version is much more useful, because it completely blurs > the difference between buffer switching and file opening and there is > no need to explicitly open files if you want to switch to a > recently used file. > > iswitchb should also support that. Or use ido mode which is fast gaining popularity and is a superset of what iswitchb provides. Why duplicate effort? Ido mode now ships with emacs and more and more modes integrate with it in the from of using ido to complete all input prompts. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 08:25:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlh8m-0002iX-Dz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:25:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlh8g-0002iA-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:25:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlh8b-0000th-1y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:25:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:43358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlh8b-0000td-0V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:25:45 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:56657 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlh8a-0002IQ-01; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:25:44 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: Minor inconsistency in header of a few admin/grammars files References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:25:32 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:53:38 -0500") Message-ID: <87vcof68fn.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:25:54 -0000 Glenn Morris writes: > PYTHON SOFTWARE FOUNDATION LICENSE VERSION 2 > [...] > ...PSF's notice of copyright, i.e., > "Copyright (c) 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, > 2010 Python Software Foundation; All Rights Reserved" are retained in > Python alone or in any derivative version prepared by Licensee. > > However, the headers of these files actually say: > > Copyright (C) 2001-2010 Python Software Foundation > > which is the same in spirit but not in letter. I'm literal-minded, so > I'd be inclined to make the appropriate minor adjustment to > wisent-make-parsers--parser-file-name and update these headers. I know > it has zero practical consequences. Thanks for checking! Yes, please go ahead with these proposed changes. (Don't forge to turn (C) into (c) also ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 08:33:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlhFr-0006Eo-PW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:33:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57124) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlhFp-0006EF-CH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:33:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlhFl-00023W-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:33:13 -0500 Received: from prometheus.naquadah.org ([212.85.154.174]:49979 helo=mx1.naquadah.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlhFl-00023B-7h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:33:09 -0500 Received: from zelenka.enovance.com (unknown [83.167.43.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.naquadah.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 591CC5C222; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:33:06 +0100 (CET) From: Julien Danjou To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: .json files - should they be associated with som Emacs mode by default? References: Mail-Followup-To: Lennart Borgman , Emacs-Devel devel Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:32:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:25:08 +0100") Message-ID: <874nvzybg5.fsf@zelenka.enovance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 212.85.154.174 Cc: Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:33:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 13 2012, Lennart Borgman wrote: > Maybe this is already done in Emacs 24? Yes, see `auto-mode-alist': ("\\.json\\'" . js-mode) =2D-=20 Julien Danjou --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJPEDKKAAoJEGEbqVCLeKXCaxwP/0uCuOiEAHA2Ky8NOlt0Pwyg yT6Re9Ii/9zJG+h3TRMWmt4Jrv3pu50gpDahdQlMPuMyoKQFQan4z3xQm7Aj7V2h BnbQAi2Eee/iHbLOFZk6kWMS3OME91roUH6cRM75VpuNdSt/+Z5yowgO5RBuz2Eo Q8sHM+aTf7sKSeupYKV9Dcs0UxF9u+hKV7jKFPJIo3SNYdd296ft6p1+HPf9uef6 53fNyaon13OsrDAA3/v0bfi9UQlJvg71mdHqvfebZwpg9fC8rDQgEj97yqKdTwdH +oYs6p+mpUSBoQXxWMmCQLqwxbjiE2O97igWwPv49DhSJyKsr1WfBAq7r2SdhVkP RcSKLDgHCX5uPHuzgSbl3mad59T2AuTPIEDCc/QP1S3+H0Axm4fGLhZJ+lXYM6Rw //HJAg9fETdTX/GlcXiQojCvRZNsEQVO7XJ/Tp9c3W5cldbX3iAuU+LZDyPVdotj mQkoaWsO3pkatMwKIDOQTuCx/xNMVkD8Vz9LMkxN9ygjLNVxPWwETblY2d02l23w aMAbFJLfL7OsUavTQTc9x3ubSmDP5ob64YcR3lkUesM7TCa4PHL09SyQZhDVqlRk vVUzSU42Ef/Ils11B3xmK0F9OyVl09htGb55qtuLzDPiZmcgAyRgGQMNbw+Vf1rC gaSjbqctoYhiNH7lEnUs =JkGW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 10:12:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlinU-0005FD-3e for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:12:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41097) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlinM-0005Cu-MO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:12:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlinG-0002MJ-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:11:56 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35371) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlinG-0002MB-L4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:11:50 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlinE-0003kR-PZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:11:48 +0100 Received: from 188-143-85-140.pool.digikabel.hu ([188.143.85.140]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:11:48 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 188-143-85-140.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:11:48 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to =?utf-8?b?c2hvdwl2aXJ0dWFs?= buffers like ido does Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:11:32 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 188.143.85.140 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:12:02 -0000 Richard Riley gmail.com> writes: > > Or use ido mode which is fast gaining popularity and is a superset of > what iswitchb provides. Why duplicate effort? Ido mode now ships with > emacs and more and more modes integrate with it in the from of using ido > to complete all input prompts. It's also a possibility though I like the look of iswitchb better. Maybe ido can be confgiured to look like iswitchb. BTW, there is one feature which ido could implement. This virtual buffer concept could be extended, so that the user can specify additional lists, not just recent files. For example, if I work on a project then there are files in it which I open only rarely, so these files are not on the recent files list. In this case I would compile the list of all files in the project and tell ido to also use this list. This way ido would list matches from the buffer list first, then from the recent files and then also from the list of project files. And I could I add more than one such lists, so I could cover all the usual places from where I open files. This would almost completely elminate the need for any kind of file opening. Every file could be accessed conveniently with a simple buffer switching regardless if it is open or not. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 10:26:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlj1L-0000kh-Q3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:26:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55353) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj1C-0000jV-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:26:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj18-0004jH-8u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:26:14 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:50551) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj18-0004jB-3D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:26:10 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so428800lag.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:26:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xy36U/F2M0LgZoHlXvQXiuRrLu5ZQ8DJAR1RoFY7yDg=; b=pMHpquu/WIY6NQMteEG6SehQqZ5JrrFjPId/3xEmGe8K1c7HOiPdUZHAcIQh1kbL3e vWHQiCSoyBZrdV0R1JPle+E6R1VTny1EBVbaAUUlKaCysUaObVW9J4/jPacF/ULXFdNf AkthgMa1BJK2ealEwKzfQDfz8yJBknJBjH4ak= Received: by 10.112.23.5 with SMTP id i5mr333808lbf.92.1326468369144; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:26:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:25:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874nvzybg5.fsf@zelenka.enovance.com> References: <874nvzybg5.fsf@zelenka.enovance.com> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:25:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: .json files - should they be associated with som Emacs mode by default? To: Lennart Borgman , Emacs-Devel devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:26:22 -0000 On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 14:32, Julien Danjou wrote: > On Fri, Jan 13 2012, Lennart Borgman wrote: > >> Maybe this is already done in Emacs 24? > > Yes, see `auto-mode-alist': > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ("\\.json\\'" . js-mode) Ok, thanks. (I can't use Emacs 24 until I have moved a lot of things there. And I do not have time so maybe I stay 23 as long as I use Emacs ... ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 10:29:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlj3w-0001vJ-4p for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:29:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55747) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj3q-0001sz-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:29:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj3o-00050r-Sn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:58 -0500 Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.212.41]:39209) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlj3o-00050n-P7; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:56 -0500 Received: by vbnl22 with SMTP id l22so1471900vbn.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.21.196 with SMTP id x4mr592878vde.20.1326468534799; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dr9sm7591413vdb.17.2012.01.13.07.28.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6A1021F3F3D1; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:53 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 00:17:46 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.212.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:29:02 -0000 on Fri Jan 13 2012, Richard Stallman wrote: > I'm sure this has been discussed to death, so please feel free to > respond with a link, but... can anyone point me to a rationale for > dynamically altering such a fundamental language behavior on the basis > of a variable's value? > > It has to be specified somehow, so how would you suggest? Maybe it's fine the way it is. My impression was that it was going to be affected by a local variable setting in the current buffer, but IIUC it is a local variable setting in the buffer from which elisp is being read (? this isn't entirely clear=E2=80=94and it should be=E2=80=94from the documentation). If so, that gives me less of a cause for worry. My initial reaction when I heard about this was that we should have a set of functions/macros for lexical binding, e.g. (lex-let ((a b)(c d)) (body)) but then, as I say, I may have misunderstood what was happening. --=20 Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 11:09:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RljhW-000467-IS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:09:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58105) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RljhN-00041h-VE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:09:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RljhM-0003x7-RK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:09:49 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:62007 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RljhM-0003wx-Eh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:09:48 -0500 Received: (qmail 67164 invoked by uid 3782); 13 Jan 2012 16:09:46 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95569B2.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.105.178]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 17:09:45 +0100 Received: (qmail 5839 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jan 2012 16:03:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:03:09 +0000 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Something about elp I need help with. Message-ID: <20120113160308.GA5792@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:09:55 -0000 Hi, Emacs. Whilst trying to track down what is dragging in a fontification event, I get the following output from elp-results (blank lines added for clarity): Function Name Call Count Elapsed Time Average Time c-beginning-of-decl-1 90 8.767888 0.0974209777 c-beginning-of-statement-1 103 8.7664949999 0.0851116019 c-crosses-statement-barrier-p 14519 7.6718619999 0.0005284015 c-at-macro-vsemi-p 20230 4.3577799999 0.0002154117 c-in-literal 20230 3.8880240000 0.0001921910 c-literal-limits 22322 2.2931949999 0.0001027325 c-backward-sws 72797 0.9805889999 1.347...e-05 c-state-safe-place 31416 0.3780669999 1.203...e-05 c-beginning-of-macro 44678 0.3394430000 7.597...e-06 c-font-lock-declarations 8 0.2129779999 0.0266222499 <======== c-find-decl-spots 8 0.2129130000 0.0266141250 c-parse-state 177 0.1174700000 0.0006636723 All these functions down to c-font-lock-declarations are low level functions, called only from other CC Mode ones. Yet there don't seem to be any HL functions calling the LL ones at the top, such as c-beginning-of-decl-1. How can this be? What have I misunderstood about elp? Thanks for the help! -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 13:37:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlm0M-0000Sr-OC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41253) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlm0H-0000Rj-6v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlm0D-00012H-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:29 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:34777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlm0D-00012B-0q; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:25 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAHB5EE9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABChRCoG4EGgXIBAQQBIzMjBQsLGgIYDgICFBgNJIgNpVyROoEviViBFgSIPJphhFI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,505,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156628881" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 13 Jan 2012 13:37:22 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 321F559439; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Dave Abrahams Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Dave Abrahams's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:53 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:37:33 -0000 > Maybe it's fine the way it is. My impression was that it was going to > be affected by a local variable setting in the current buffer, but IIUC > it is a local variable setting in the buffer from which elisp is being > read (? this isn't entirely clear=E2=80=94and it should be=E2=80=94from t= he > documentation). Right. The variable is looked up when calling `eval', not when processing let-bindings. So indeed it is the value in the buffer from which the code was `read' that is important, rather than the value in the buffer that happens to be current when a new binding is created. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 14:19:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlmef-0003mj-0O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50749) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmeY-0003lp-JD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmeV-0008KH-3D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:04 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:43859 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmeU-0008JI-Qk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 78027 invoked by uid 3782); 13 Jan 2012 19:18:56 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95569B2.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.105.178]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:18:54 +0100 Received: (qmail 1621 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jan 2012 19:12:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:12:18 +0000 To: Kan-Ru Chen Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120113191218.GB5792@acm.acm> References: <83vcpxbxn0.fsf@gnu.org> <20111203151824.GA4566@acm.acm> <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:19:11 -0000 Hello, Kanru. On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:06:00AM +0800, Kan-Ru Chen wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > Please forgive me for using the other files, it is closer to the real > case. You can get the file from > https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/raw-file/tip/dom/base/nsDOMClassInfo.cpp That's some file. ;-) > (i) Loaded elp and instrumented the c- package. > (ii) Loaded nsDOMClassInfo.cpp > (iii) Done M-x c++-mode > (iv) Done M-x elp-results (to clear the accumulated times) > (v) C-s battery until failing to find > (vi) M-x elp-results. > Before: > c-beginning-of-decl-1 201 13.065947999 0.0650047164 > c-beginning-of-statement-1 229 13.061191 0.0570357685 > c-crosses-statement-barrier-p 35466 11.622212999 0.0003277001 > c-font-lock-declarations 16 9.4090929999 0.5880683124 > c-find-decl-spots 16 9.4089879999 0.5880617499 > c-at-macro-vsemi-p 46569 6.6139159999 0.0001420240 > c-in-literal 46569 5.4569670000 0.0001171802 > c-literal-limits 51666 3.1393819999 6.076...e-05 > c-backward-sws 176682 1.6644079999 9.420...e-06 > c-beginning-of-macro 104078 0.5568430000 5.350...e-06 > c-state-safe-place 72459 0.3154430000 4.353...e-06 > c-parse-state 225 0.1421229999 0.0006316577 > c-parse-state-1 225 0.1385559999 0.0006158044 > c-font-lock-enclosing-decls 16 0.1365140000 0.0085321250 > c-append-to-state-cache 196 0.0641449999 0.0003272704 > After: > c-beginning-of-decl-1 137 9.6732900000 0.0706079562 > c-beginning-of-statement-1 165 9.6693369999 0.0586020424 > c-crosses-statement-barrier-p 25584 8.5505400000 0.0003342143 > c-font-lock-declarations 16 6.059768 0.3787355 > c-find-decl-spots 16 6.059666 0.378729125 > c-at-macro-vsemi-p 35149 4.7420429999 0.0001349126 > c-in-literal 35149 4.0154739999 0.0001142414 > c-literal-limits 38962 2.5425719999 6.525...e-05 > c-backward-sws 128214 1.1421259999 8.907...e-06 > c-beginning-of-macro 78145 0.3845660000 4.921...e-06 > c-state-safe-place 54703 0.2419970000 4.423...e-06 > c-parse-state 317 0.1464209999 0.0004618958 > c-font-lock-enclosing-decls 16 0.137945 0.0086215625 > c-parse-state-1 317 0.1331939999 0.0004201703 > c-font-lock-declarators 24 0.065522 0.0027300833 I've inserted some code which checks for macro invocation by looking for an identifier followed by '('. More or less. Would you please try out the following patch. It improves things considerably, although it might not be quite the version which gets committed. *** orig/cc-engine.el 2011-12-15 09:06:28.000000000 +0000 --- cc-engine.el 2011-12-15 13:41:25.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 8073,8078 **** --- 8073,8094 ---- next-open-brace (c-pull-open-brace paren-state))) open-brace)) + (defun c-cheap-inside-bracelist-p (paren-state) + ;; Return the position of the L-brace if point is inside a brace list + ;; initialization of an array, etc. This is an approximate function, + ;; designed for speed over accuracy. We simply search for "= {" (naturally + ;; with syntactic whitespace allowed). PAREN-STATE is the normal thing that + ;; it is everywhere else. + (let (b-pos) + (save-excursion + (while + (and (setq b-pos (c-pull-open-brace paren-state)) + (progn (goto-char b-pos) + (c-backward-sws) + (c-backward-token-2) + (not (looking-at "="))))) + b-pos))) + (defun c-inside-bracelist-p (containing-sexp paren-state) ;; return the buffer position of the beginning of the brace list ;; statement if we're inside a brace list, otherwise return nil. *** orig/cc-fonts.el 2011-12-15 09:06:28.000000000 +0000 --- cc-fonts.el 2012-01-13 18:50:02.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 407,416 **** ;; `parse-sexp-lookup-properties' (when it exists). (parse-sexp-lookup-properties (cc-eval-when-compile ! (boundp 'parse-sexp-lookup-properties)))) (goto-char (let ((here (point))) ! (if (eq (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1)) 'same) (point) here))) ,(c-make-font-lock-search-form regexp highlights)) --- 407,417 ---- ;; `parse-sexp-lookup-properties' (when it exists). (parse-sexp-lookup-properties (cc-eval-when-compile ! (boundp 'parse-sexp-lookup-properties))) ! (BOD-limit (max (point-min) (- (point) 2000)))) (goto-char (let ((here (point))) ! (if (eq (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1 BOD-limit)) 'same) (point) here))) ,(c-make-font-lock-search-form regexp highlights)) *************** *** 1317,1323 **** (or (looking-at c-typedef-key) (goto-char start-pos))) - ;; Now analyze the construct. ;; In QT, "more" is an irritating keyword that expands to nothing. ;; We skip over it to prevent recognition of "more slots: " ;; as a bitfield declaration. --- 1318,1323 ---- *************** *** 1326,1331 **** --- 1326,1333 ---- (concat "\\(more\\)\\([^" c-symbol-chars "]\\|$\\)"))) (goto-char (match-end 1)) (c-forward-syntactic-ws)) + + ;; Now analyze the construct. (setq decl-or-cast (c-forward-decl-or-cast-1 match-pos context last-cast-end)) *************** *** 1394,1399 **** --- 1396,1428 ---- (c-fontify-recorded-types-and-refs) nil) + ;; Restore point, since at this point in the code it has been + ;; left undefined by c-forward-decl-or-cast-1 above. + ((progn (goto-char start-pos) nil)) + + ;; If point is inside a bracelist, there's no point checking it + ;; being at a declarator. + ((let ((paren-state (c-parse-state))) + (c-cheap-inside-bracelist-p paren-state)) + nil) + + ;; If point is just after a ")" which is followed by an + ;; identifier which isn't a label, or at the matching "(", we're + ;; at either a macro invocation, a cast, or a + ;; for/while/etc. statement. The cast case is handled above. + ;; None of these cases can contain a declarator. + ((or (and (eq (char-before match-pos) ?\)) + (c-on-identifier) + (save-excursion (not (c-forward-label)))) + (and (eq (char-after) ?\() + (save-excursion + (and + (progn (c-backward-token-2) (c-on-identifier)) + (save-excursion (not (c-forward-label))) + (progn (c-backward-token-2) + (eq (char-after) ?\()))))) + nil) + (t ;; Are we at a declarator? Try to go back to the declaration ;; to check this. If we get there, check whether a "typedef" *************** *** 1403,1408 **** --- 1432,1440 ---- c-recognize-knr-p) ; Strictly speaking, bogus, but it ; speeds up lisp.h tremendously. (save-excursion + (unless (or (eobp) + (looking-at "\\s(\\|\\s)")) + (forward-char)) (setq bod-res (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1 decl-search-lim))) (if (and (eq bod-res 'same) (progn > -- > Kanru -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 14:19:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlmfP-0004T3-QW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35540) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmfN-0004Sq-Bg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmfM-0000Bg-9U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:57 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:43947) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmfM-0000Ba-7J; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:56 -0500 Received: by qats34 with SMTP id s34so1077563qat.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.96.14 with SMTP id f14mr3755399qan.36.1326482395212; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pluto.luannocracy.com (207-172-223-249.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com. [207.172.223.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f12sm4439142qad.15.2012.01.13.11.19.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by pluto.luannocracy.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 58E091F514EC; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Abrahams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:19:54 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:37:22 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:19:58 -0000 on Fri Jan 13 2012, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Maybe it's fine the way it is. My impression was that it was going to >> be affected by a local variable setting in the current buffer, but IIUC >> it is a local variable setting in the buffer from which elisp is being >> read (? this isn't entirely clear=E2=80=94and it should be=E2=80=94from = the >> documentation). > > Right. The variable is looked up when calling `eval', not when > processing let-bindings. So indeed it is the value in the buffer from > which the code was `read' that is important, rather than the value in > the buffer that happens to be current when a new binding is created. IMO it's a documentation bug that I had to ask that question. Could someone please fix that? Thanks, --=20 Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 14:31:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlmqV-0007lU-UH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34598) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmqT-0007hB-5I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmqR-0001xu-P5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:25 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:50729) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlmqR-0001xn-Ik for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:23 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so5739857iaf.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:31:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eRbw4Ry9l4SA31nxpZIqBID/vr6f8Hrgwhr9adPDIM8=; b=gmNCTLDaYr2VkMdPoa0iSS0HelJVLjnZ5gNwfjGPNpRJi6kJMjlq20DLhwQI6gkMCW atlrTw98QAFrJTlhdx5q3Q1Tse1P1pH1/M8KD5gXJAAWON1thjFwEPJuHBr90G46/JNw o4U5CypZvMnrCNS2Kb5WPIPCRmD/pLkYKBoE8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.191.200 with SMTP id ha8mr2001127igc.27.1326483082480; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:31:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: john.yates.sheets@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.108.74 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:31:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:31:22 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Z83KVULuKoH3nZDnp7GWXsY6Uhk Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to show virtual buffers like ido does From: John Yates To: Tom Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9340fd9ee8c0904b66de8db X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:31:26 -0000 --14dae9340fd9ee8c0904b66de8db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Tom wrote: > > BTW, there is one feature which ido could implement. This virtual buffer > concept could be extended, so that the user can specify additional lists, > not just recent files. > > For example, if I work on a project then there are files in it which > I open only rarely, so these files are not on the recent files list. > In this case I would compile the list of all files in the project and > tell ido to also use this list. This way ido would list matches from > the buffer list first, then from the recent files and then also from > the list of project files. > I would absolutely love to see such a capability. Today I already place in the root directory of each of my projects a list of paths to all of the files in that project. I make a project current by loading that file into s special buffer. Finally I have a special key binding that uses that buffer and completion to open any project file. Ideally I would have ido seach upwards through the directory tree starting from the directory part of buffer-file-name for something like .ido-project-files. Such ido integration would eliminate my separate key binding and the awkward statefulness of my current project files buffer. /john --14dae9340fd9ee8c0904b66de8db Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --14dae9340fd9ee8c0904b66de8db-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 15:00:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlnII-0002XD-IT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:00:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44770) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlnIG-0002WB-0I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:00:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlnIB-0006g4-8s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:00:07 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50787) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlnIB-0006f9-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:00:03 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RlnI7-0006mN-UO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:00:00 +0100 Received: from 188-143-85-140.pool.digikabel.hu ([188.143.85.140]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:59:59 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 188-143-85-140.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:59:59 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to =?utf-8?b?c2hvdwl2aXJ0dWFs?= buffers like ido does Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 188.143.85.140 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:00:09 -0000 John Yates yates-sheets.org> writes: > Ideally I would have ido seach upwards through the directory > tree starting from the directory part of buffer-file-name for > something like .ido-project-files. > > Such ido integration would eliminate my separate key binding > and the awkward statefulness of my current project files > buffer. I don't think that should be integrated into ido or at least only if it builds upon a more general feature. The basic feature would be to specify additional lists for ido besides recent files, so one could specify other groups of files too for completion. Project files is a special case of this which could easily be implemented if the above feature is added, but this feature could be useful in other cases too (e.g. I sometimes look into emacs .el source files, so I would create a list of all emacs lisp source files, so I could simply switch to any of them without having to use find-file), so the implementation should not be narrowed down only to the case of project files. BTW, if this generic feature is added then ido should also use the code in the uniquify package, so it can indicate the difference if two files with the same names are matching, but they are in different directories. In this case the file name without directory is not enough to know which file is which. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 16:33:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlokN-0001XW-7k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:33:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34139) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlokK-0001X7-Eb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:33:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlokJ-0002vu-Kq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:33:12 -0500 Received: from li281-170.members.linode.com ([173.255.255.170]:41151 helo=parlementum.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlokJ-0002vk-Gd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:33:11 -0500 Received: from linux.local (cpe-071-077-203-175.ec.res.rr.com [71.77.203.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: tekk) by parlementum.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17EE0F2266; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:33:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:33:07 -0500 (EST) From: Tekk To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: .json files - should they be associated with som Emacs mode by default? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 173.255.255.170 Cc: Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:33:13 -0000 On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Lennart Borgman wrote: > Maybe this is already done in Emacs 24? > > javascript seems appropriate for this, since json is valid js From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 19:10:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlrCm-0004K8-K3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:10:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35429) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlrCh-0004EG-2k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:10:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlrCf-0008Mf-Ox for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:10:39 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]:52162) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlrCf-0008MV-L3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:10:37 -0500 Received: from [87.198.47.210] (87-198-47-210.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EB94683CB for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 00:10:35 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F10C7F9.3060309@harpegolden.net> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 00:10:33 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111114 Icedove/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: .json files - should they be associated with som Emacs mode by default? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 65.99.215.13 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 00:10:40 -0000 On 13/01/12 21:33, Tekk wrote: > > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Lennart Borgman wrote: > >> Maybe this is already done in Emacs 24? >> >> > > javascript seems appropriate for this, since json is valid js > ...but not necessarily vice-versa [1]. Perhaps there should be a strict json-mode. Currently you can open a .json file and emacs trunk, using javascript-mode, is okay with it having {a: 'b'}, say, when it should really be highlighting that as a json syntax error (unquoted key, single quoted value). [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3975859/what-are-the-differences-between-json-and-javascript-object From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 20:00:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlryi-0002a7-RK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:00:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47299) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlryf-0002Zw-Ru for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:00:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlryd-0005Xc-A4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:00:13 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55723) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlryd-0005XQ-1N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:00:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlryb-0002Sz-C7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:00:09 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:00:09 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:00:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:59:57 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 10 Message-ID: <878vlbyu7m.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:NJmwV1irjKZJAxSv/uMbBryr8qY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:00:14 -0000 On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:53 -0500 Dave Abrahams wrote: DA> My initial reaction when I heard about this was that we should have DA> a set of functions/macros for lexical binding, e.g. (lex-let ((a DA> b)(c d)) (body)) but then, as I say, I may have misunderstood what DA> was happening. Wait, you know about `lexical-let', right? Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 21:30:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RltOM-0003uJ-5z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54640) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RltOI-0003tw-Rk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RltOH-0007vt-Nk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:46 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:8145) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RltOH-0007vp-Im; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:45 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EACHnEE9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABCrTWBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAsOJhIUGA0kiA23EIwXBIg7mmGEUg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,508,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156718789" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 13 Jan 2012 21:30:44 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9310D6610D; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:44 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: lexical-binding rationale? Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:30:44 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 02:55:05 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: Dave Abrahams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:30:47 -0000 >> The intention is that it should work like any other file-local setting >> so it can go in the end as well, but I haven't checked that >> lisp_file_lexically_bound_p handles that cases correctly. > Just from looking at it, it sure looks like it doesn't. Hmm... indeed! I guess lisp_file_lexically_bound_p should largely be rewritten by moving it to load-with-code-conversion/load-source-file-function. This said, now that I see the code it's clear that if we care about the performance of loading .el (i.e. uncompiled) files, then we should force lexical-binding to be on the first line. Of course, currently it looks like we don't care about this performance (that's probably the reason why people have started to see a real speed up when compiling their .emacs file), but if we want to be able to change our minds, we'd better impose the restriction right away because afterwards will be too late. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 13 22:12:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rlu2f-0007Xj-T5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:12:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42689) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlu2d-0007X3-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:12:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlu2b-0003NZ-NZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:12:27 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:45945) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rlu2b-0003NR-HT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:12:25 -0500 Received: by obbta2 with SMTP id ta2so1725630obb.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:12:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=l13oP0Ej6X41gsRheG8S/e10e4g6CHsc2KzP3ao+U0I=; b=W4lQat0CYVLX/PC1+plcFeLiI0qyVVriPJvMRP3AgLhtzhiFm7MVm7aluJr+9i8ucZ mVVDxhIqVWRRqgzZRBNbekrMdlggESaMVqNqz8ELtDNWqw7ZEb2l7+usTkib97TZwwpL l9SJIir7YLJFBi/uul5wwlgKZHOemdak/CdDc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.48.36 with SMTP id i4mr3032003obn.9.1326510745015; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:12:25 -0800 (PST) Sender: john.yates.sheets@gmail.com Received: by 10.182.54.73 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:12:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:12:24 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: nmbUcS88G3dEN0Pd5hUjyeRqb30 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: iswitchb should have an option to show virtual buffers like ido does From: John Yates To: Tom Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444693fbf542304b674599d X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 03:12:28 -0000 --f46d0444693fbf542304b674599d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Tom wrote: I don't think that should be integrated into ido or at least only if > it builds upon a more general feature. > I fully agree. I am all for generality. My main point was to warn against limiting ourselves to static lists. > The basic feature would be to specify additional lists for ido besides > recent files, so one could specify other groups of files too for > completion. > As I see it the basic ido framework is an ordered list of sets of names. ido presents a completion list built by collecting - in list order - match candidates from each set of names. My suggestion is these sets of names may be concrete (e.g. actual buffers, recentf's files list, user provided list, etc) or they may be lazy (e.g. a function conforming to an ido defined API). Lazy evaluation has the added virtue that it is less likely to impact emacs start up. I sometimes look into emacs .el source files, > so I would create a list of all emacs lisp source files, so I could > simply switch to any of them without having to use find-file My solution is to append to load-path source directories which have be separated from their corresponding .elc's. (Emacs still loads a .elc in preference to a .el or .el.gz even when the .elc shows up further down the path.) After that I can open emacs source via ilocate-library-find-source ( https://github.com/emacsmirror/ilocate-library.git) using only the file name. And I get completion support. BTW, if this generic feature is added then ido should also use the > code in the uniquify package, so it can indicate the difference > if two files with the same names are matching, but they > are in different directories. In this case the file name without > directory is not enough to know which file is which. > Absolutely. /john --f46d0444693fbf542304b674599d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't think that should be integrated into ido or at least only if it builds upon a more general feature.

= I fully agree. =A0I am all for generality. =A0My main point was to warn aga= inst limiting ourselves to static lists.
=A0
The basic feature would be to specify additional lists for ido besides
recent files, so one could specify other groups of files too for
completion.

As I see it the basic ido f= ramework is an ordered list of sets of names. =A0ido presents a completion = list built by collecting - in list order - match candidates from each set o= f names. =A0My suggestion is these sets of names may be concrete (e.g. actu= al buffers, recentf's files list, user provided list, etc) or they may = be lazy (e.g. a function conforming to an ido defined API). =A0Lazy evaluat= ion has the added virtue that it is less likely to impact emacs start up.

I sometimes look into emacs .= el source files,
so I would create a list of all emacs lisp source files, so I could
simply switch to any of them without having to use find-file


BTW, if this generic feature is added then ido should also use the
code in the uniquify package, so it can indicate the difference
if two files with the same names are matching, but they
are in different directories. In this case the file name without
directory is not enough to know which file is which.
<= br>
Absolutely.

/john=A0
--f46d0444693fbf542304b674599d-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 04:13:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RlzfZ-0000gq-DP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 04:13:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56143) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlzfX-0000g6-KA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 04:13:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlzfW-0004Bc-B9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 04:12:59 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:50881) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RlzfU-0004BH-Li; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 04:12:56 -0500 Received: by iafj26 with SMTP id j26so6674890iaf.0 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Bbt2CsHQTT62FKOWdwwP8cQ/0f25Qi4exeLaqBIvTHc=; b=KQV3iTXPJJod9TuqlNpKqqvUxnm14/OHOx1wPdw/9lnQ3jN4zaVPk5UiNp+te2N6Bv tlI5teO9RmULglUDXKzwIE9gMwAcn12VbmmSCQHVslkTyzXduT62i/8LWdCzeoie1aT1 aghSXKq5XX4Vn+dWgiF+YcE6iuZRfYpDJaIcA= Received: by 10.43.120.2 with SMTP id fw2mr3298833icc.37.1326532375238; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from isil.kanru.info (61-228-148-114.dynamic.hinet.net. [61.228.148.114]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g7sm11593108igv.7.2012.01.14.01.12.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:12:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: Kan-Ru Chen Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=isil.kanru.info) by isil.kanru.info with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1RlzfN-0002nS-89; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:12:49 +0800 From: Kan-Ru Chen To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers References: <83vcpxbxn0.fsf@gnu.org> <20111203151824.GA4566@acm.acm> <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20120113191218.GB5792@acm.acm> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:12:48 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20120113191218.GB5792@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:12:18 +0000") Message-ID: <877h0uy7e7.fsf@isil.kanru.info> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:13:00 -0000 Hi! Alan Mackenzie writes: > I've inserted some code which checks for macro invocation by looking for > an identifier followed by '('. More or less. > > Would you please try out the following patch. It improves things > considerably, although it might not be quite the version which gets > committed. Thanks! Now the speed is very acceptable after applied the patch :) -- Kanru From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 10:53:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm5uj-00017m-KV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:53:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57657) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm5uh-00015s-6r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:53:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm5ud-000529-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:53:03 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:44776 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm5uc-00051t-CB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:52:58 -0500 Received: (qmail 60942 invoked by uid 3782); 14 Jan 2012 15:52:55 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD951B97F.dip.t-dialin.net [217.81.185.127]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 16:52:53 +0100 Received: (qmail 14624 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jan 2012 15:46:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:46:14 +0000 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Something about elp I need help with. Message-ID: <20120114154614.GA14617@acm.acm> References: <20120113160308.GA5792@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120113160308.GA5792@acm.acm> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:53:04 -0000 On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 04:03:09PM +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Emacs. > Whilst trying to track down what is dragging in a fontification event, I > get the following output from elp-results (blank lines added for > clarity): > Function Name Call Count Elapsed Time Average Time > c-beginning-of-decl-1 90 8.767888 0.0974209777 > c-beginning-of-statement-1 103 8.7664949999 0.0851116019 > c-crosses-statement-barrier-p 14519 7.6718619999 0.0005284015 > c-at-macro-vsemi-p 20230 4.3577799999 0.0002154117 > c-in-literal 20230 3.8880240000 0.0001921910 > c-literal-limits 22322 2.2931949999 0.0001027325 > c-backward-sws 72797 0.9805889999 1.347...e-05 > c-state-safe-place 31416 0.3780669999 1.203...e-05 > c-beginning-of-macro 44678 0.3394430000 7.597...e-06 > c-font-lock-declarations 8 0.2129779999 0.0266222499 <======== > c-find-decl-spots 8 0.2129130000 0.0266141250 > c-parse-state 177 0.1174700000 0.0006636723 > All these functions down to c-font-lock-declarations are low level > functions, called only from other CC Mode ones. Yet there don't seem to > be any HL functions calling the LL ones at the top, such as > c-beginning-of-decl-1. > How can this be? What have I misunderstood about elp? I've worked it out, now. There was a macro generated function called directly from font-lock. It was the "missing" high level function. > Thanks for the help! -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 13:08:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm81Y-00047K-Vs for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:08:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55303) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm81V-00047D-Sx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:08:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm81U-0007dR-Qi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:08:13 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:47045) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm81U-0007dF-GV; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:08:12 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXS00700VNR6W00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:08:10 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.136.230]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXS0071KVPL6110@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:08:10 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:08:17 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Changes in epaths.in In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <831ur2jgxa.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:08:14 -0000 > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:43:50 -0500 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > From: Glenn Morris > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 04:00:19 -0500 > > > > > > I put it back > > Thanks. > > > but I do suggest you add an entry to sed4.inp anyway, something like > > > > /^#define *PATH_DUMPLOADSEARCH/s/".*"/"..\/lisp"/ > > Will do when I have time. Done. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 14:44:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm9WM-0003QB-EU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:44:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60798) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9WF-0003OQ-LU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:44:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9WE-0000Rk-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:44:03 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37329) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9WE-0000Re-7p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:44:02 -0500 Received: from g230049066.adsl.alicedsl.de ([92.230.49.66]:38233 helo=termi.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9WD-0007sY-N8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:44:02 -0500 From: jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:43:55 +0100 Message-ID: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:44:08 -0000 C-M-S-s-z is undefined. I could not have done that myself! -- Jose E. Marchesi http://www.jemarch.net GNU Project http://www.gnu.org From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 14:47:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm9Zk-0004N3-3I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51679) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9Zi-0004Mw-2w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9Zh-000124-53 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:37 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:64073) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9Zf-00011g-Ej; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:35 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1074089lag.0 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:47:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=lDIkxNgTQxtepAWRAIdQNmV3ca3JwfCzNFtc2W16xdI=; b=JsT4x2F8ObOkya/E+6hpsVI00uKPPI7j/7EB0ui9xLrZpo6KfTE3T8CLFXOQHIPQ83 QmdhjyeQbXQKaHw4NNeXUyQVEGcBN5vJgFWxm5+6x1MAoMv1DcRAhUXgQ9ns+Y01QvMy r3TvzkmG5HStEPQsWNfLZZdO9Rc0UBrU2oJCg= Received: by 10.152.136.39 with SMTP id px7mr2935011lab.2.1326570453139; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:47:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:47:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:47:12 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs To: "Jose E. Marchesi" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:47:39 -0000 On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 20:43, Jose E. Marchesi wrote: > > > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > I could not have done that myself! Yes, it seems hard. I have no cat and I get "C-M-S-z is undefined" when I try. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 14:54:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm9gh-0005NZ-6E for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:54:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36873) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9gf-0005Ml-0s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:54:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9gc-0002Nx-6g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:54:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37583) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9gc-0002Nk-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:54:46 -0500 Received: from g230049066.adsl.alicedsl.de ([92.230.49.66]:38240 helo=termi.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9gb-0008Vv-JA; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:54:45 -0500 From: jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:54:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:47:12 +0100") Message-ID: <878vlaqcu7.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:54:50 -0000 > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > I could not have done that myself! Yes, it seems hard. I have no cat and I get "C-M-S-z is undefined" when I try. Heh, you just proved my point. If you had a cat you would get "C-M-S-s-z is undefined" instead :D -- Jose E. Marchesi http://www.jemarch.net GNU Project http://www.gnu.org From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 14:59:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rm9lb-0006JW-Or for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:59:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51941) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9lV-0006IS-EY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:59:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9lQ-0003Wu-J2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:59:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9lQ-0003Wl-HU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:59:44 -0500 Received: from g230049066.adsl.alicedsl.de ([92.230.49.66]:38246 helo=termi.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rm9lP-0000Jo-V0; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:59:44 -0500 From: jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:59:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:47:12 +0100") Message-ID: <8762gem4wl.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:59:54 -0000 > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > I could not have done that myself! Yes, it seems hard. I have no cat and I get "C-M-S-z is undefined" when I try. It looks like the "windows" key I have got between the left Ctrl and the left Alt keys generates s-. So if you press Shift-Ctrl-Alt-Windows-z, you get the C-M-S-s-z keys sequence... -- Jose E. Marchesi http://www.jemarch.net GNU Project http://www.gnu.org From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 23:06:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmHMk-0004dN-6K for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:06:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41600) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHMh-0004ar-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:06:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHMg-00006F-GT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:06:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42847) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHMg-00006B-Di for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:06:42 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:50171 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHM6-0007o4-LL; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:06:07 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:05:32 +0800 Message-ID: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 04:06:44 -0000 Emacs pretest 23.0.90 is now available for download via FTP, at the following location: ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.3.90.tar.gz This is a pretest for a planned Emacs 23.4 release, which will fix the security flaw in EDE reported on emacs-devel a few days ago. It also fixes many other bugs in Emacs 23.3, but contains no new features. Please help give this as much testing as possible over the next few days, as I hope to make the Emacs 23.4 release from this if no significant problems are found in this pretest. Please send me an email reporting success or failure on your build platform, and report bugs that you find via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 14 23:21:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmHbN-0005VB-HZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:21:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44962) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHbL-0005V5-Al for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:21:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHbJ-0001WS-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:21:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42922) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHbJ-0001WO-Qv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:21:49 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:50202 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmHbI-0002eP-Tj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:21:49 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Maintainers needed for some tutorial languages Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:21:42 +0800 Message-ID: <87y5t9oasp.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 04:21:52 -0000 We currently lack maintainers for the Emacs tutorial in several languages: - TUTORIAL.cs (Czech) - TUTORIAL.ko (Korean) - TUTORIAL.ro (Romanian) - TUTORIAL.sk (Slovak) If you are fluent in one of these languages and are willing to help, please send me an email. The work is not difficult---it involves checking and updating the tutorial translation so that it has the same contents as the English tutorial; this work only needs to be done roughly once per Emacs major release. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 01:07:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmJFM-0003An-0j for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:07:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59169) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmJFI-00039v-OT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:07:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmJFH-0005bQ-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:07:12 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:57779) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmJFG-0005b9-Ft for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:07:11 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B566C055D for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:07:06 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:07:06 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port In-Reply-To: References: <2282B3B4-D844-4E26-BB94-9F79EEA2E847@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 06:07:14 -0000 The 28th update of the Mac port, which is experimental/hackers-only, is now available from ftp://ftp.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp/emacs/emacs-23.3.90-mac-1.9998.tar.gz This version is based on Emacs 23.3.90 pretest. I hope I can release version 2.0 shortly after the Emacs 23.4 release. ** Fixed bugs *** Wrong relief display for sliced images. Adapt a fix for Bug#10500. ** Improvements *** If Emacs.app is launched from Finder or via Resume, and there is no ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist file, then it inherits environment variable settings of user's login shell. Note that if Emacs.app is launched via the `open' command on Mac OS X 10.4 and later, then it inherits environment variable settings of the shell where the command is invoked, and this behavior is unchanged. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 03:50:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmLnJ-0005B4-A4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 03:50:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37771) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmLnH-0005AD-Cr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 03:50:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmLnG-0007wU-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 03:50:27 -0500 Received: from anne.math.ntnu.no ([129.241.15.150]:46645) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmLnF-0007wQ-MM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 03:50:26 -0500 Received: (qmail 23541 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2012 08:50:21 -0000 Received: from gauss.math.ntnu.no (HELO localhost) (hanche@129.241.15.58) by anne.math.ntnu.no with ESMTPA; 15 Jan 2012 08:50:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:50:20 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120115.095020.72111162263802884.hanche@math.ntnu.no> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs From: Harald Hanche-Olsen In-Reply-To: <878vlaqcu7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <878vlaqcu7.fsf@gnu.org> X-URL: http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/ X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3.50 on Emacs 24.0.92 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 129.241.15.150 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 08:50:28 -0000 [jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) (2012-01-14 19:54:40 UTC)] > > > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > > > I could not have done that myself! > > Yes, it seems hard. I have no cat and I get "C-M-S-z is undefined" > when I try. > > Heh, you just proved my point. If you had a cat you would get > "C-M-S-s-z is undefined" instead :D So maybe we should rebind that key to engage Cats-Lock. - Harald From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 11:38:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmT6U-0005iv-FM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50025) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmT6R-0005ig-Uh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmT6R-0006ot-14 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:43 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:46560) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmT6Q-0006ok-Uy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:42 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAEkAE09FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABErTaBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAsOJhIUGA0kiA20fIwXBIg7mmOEUg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,514,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156877538" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 15 Jan 2012 11:38:41 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C9ADB58DC4; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:40 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: Something about elp I need help with. Message-ID: References: <20120113160308.GA5792@acm.acm> <20120114154614.GA14617@acm.acm> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:38:40 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20120114154614.GA14617@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:46:14 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:38:44 -0000 >> How can this be? What have I misunderstood about elp? > I've worked it out, now. I'm glad we could help, Stefan ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 11:44:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmTBm-0007Bf-VW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52903) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTBk-00077r-O9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTBj-0007lO-QA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:12 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:5166) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTBj-0007lJ-Nn; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:11 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAIQBE09FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABErTaBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA2IMbR+jBcEiDuaY4RS X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,514,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156877731" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 15 Jan 2012 11:44:11 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id AEE1B58DC4; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:10 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs Message-ID: References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> (Jose E. Marchesi's message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:43:55 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:44:13 -0000 > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 12:08:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmTZ2-0006Oe-TV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:08:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41959) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTZ0-0006NX-7l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:08:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTYz-0002zz-B5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:08:14 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41187) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTYz-0002zt-3o; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:08:13 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0FH8B8F027407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:08:12 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0FH8AeZ020647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:08:11 GMT Received: from abhmt115.oracle.com (abhmt115.oracle.com [141.146.116.67]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0FH8AaO013482; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:08:10 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.36.131) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:08:09 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Jose E. Marchesi'" References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:08:00 -0800 Message-ID: <2B025804AAD54F22A6BA7E744E5C18C5@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AczTpO2GjEqFlk3ATQKy25n4XGUsAAAAurzA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F1307FC.002A,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:08:15 -0000 > > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. > BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. Pronounced, it hacks up a hair ball, then trails off in a purr. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 12:27:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmTrp-0008QX-P2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:27:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32856) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTrn-0008Oy-Am for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:27:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTrm-0005WI-3R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:27:39 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:53912) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTrl-0005WC-Py; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:27:38 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so2007239wic.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:27:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=MaOlZlcBv9NIk9TeoZ54mYVOCq0zkYzRJufTF/EqpKw=; b=ddL19it8BhprcNMaBSip1R+pKuON5EEJby1OLG1C+la7hyQnnxnQq50uqo7Q6BmIzs v+TjDPDEJBpbyGFRdSX2eLI2PEeFnI4g6gUZsXDVpXYnEuMa6YbX3+BsL4H9+R3hN2mq ayLKku7viCPFRj4QcCCCCmr7/32vgXGtdiWTM= Received: by 10.180.99.225 with SMTP id et1mr14492553wib.2.1326648456630; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (183.139.114.78.rev.sfr.net. [78.114.139.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y3sm4449612wbn.13.2012.01.15.09.27.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:27:35 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 54DD813E2A; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:28:44 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs In-Reply-To: <2B025804AAD54F22A6BA7E744E5C18C5@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:08:00 -0800") References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <2B025804AAD54F22A6BA7E744E5C18C5@us.oracle.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:28:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87sjjglvsj.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , "'Jose E. Marchesi'" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:27:40 -0000 "Drew Adams" writes: >> > C-M-S-s-z is undefined. I cannot reproduce this in a *scratch* buffer. C-M-S is translated to C-M-s (`isearch-forward-regexp') Maybe this happens only in cat-mode? -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 12:29:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmTtL-0000TK-Am for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:29:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33135) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTtI-0000Qk-Ba for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:29:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTtG-0005sw-NA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:29:12 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:64768) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmTtG-0005sr-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:29:10 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so911995iac.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:29:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H3eOwj02C1HrM6YULGxNEe8/PMYBeMO+FNKf9jIAMA0=; b=QE8vUt0C6HoiZEiDmAzYt/mLeAA7gyyE2mP5E5tltVsfKZ6gIboVqg9ti5jOfVniNa 3zVKjPmDJA37ic5i0j08u8cAtc2pt/1wl+cHL0CqxGeMIE6vZmszF2fk2/DAoyuudndA RYZ6DtzOP4IBY77x455zBPzfe16w48i03EQV8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.187.226 with SMTP id fv2mr6895566igc.20.1326648548249; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.44.8 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:29:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2282B3B4-D844-4E26-BB94-9F79EEA2E847@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:29:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port From: Xu Xin Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:29:13 -0000 On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:07 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > The 28th update of the Mac port, which is experimental/hackers-only, > is now available from > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0ftp://ftp.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp/emacs/emacs-23.3.90-mac-1.999= 8.tar.gz > > This version is based on Emacs 23.3.90 pretest. =C2=A0I hope I can releas= e > version 2.0 shortly after the Emacs 23.4 release. > > ** Fixed bugs > > *** Wrong relief display for sliced images. > Adapt a fix for Bug#10500. > > ** Improvements > > *** If Emacs.app is launched from Finder or via Resume, and there is > no ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist file, then it inherits environment > variable settings of user's login shell. =C2=A0Note that if Emacs.app is > launched via the `open' command on Mac OS X 10.4 and later, then it > inherits environment variable settings of the shell where the command > is invoked, and this behavior is unchanged. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp > Hi All, I updated the self-contained build of Emacs 23 Mac port with the newest patch emacs-23.3.90-mac-1.9998. Check it out with https://github.com/downloads/railwaycat/emacs-mac-port/Emacs.zip -- =E6=9E=95=E6=B5=81=E6=BC=B1=E7=9F=B3 From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 15:55:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmX6z-0000cA-L0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:55:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41362) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmX6v-0000bo-Po for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:55:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmX6u-0005cO-B3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:55:29 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmX6u-0005cA-5f; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:55:28 -0500 Received: by iacb35 with SMTP id b35so1137327iac.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:55:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=q1H2HZ2wbSZRQ3KZkbP6DakOS88sYnsJPGRRZD0hth8=; b=i3PDHA2h+su6ts1Mwn+eiVVR+FUnnsJjGapDVXdh1KQ3xwZ+qv1S5RRFAanRkwoK/2 ZsthM+1g4MdwaEt2R5KhBcNgcY7KCW94EpDT/nB6G3UJkXp56o8CmAYS1WS45PX8RuSd 0bUMp7Ww2ogD4S96parkzzmP8YX9h6u9kSa/Y= Received: by 10.50.168.2 with SMTP id zs2mr10094361igb.21.1326660926437; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (71-208-75-173.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.208.75.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id uz5sm3855004igc.0.2012.01.15.12.55.24 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:55:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F133D3C.8050306@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:55:24 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Emacs pretest 23.3.90 Windows Binaries References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, Chong Yidong X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:55:31 -0000 The Emacs 23.3.90 Pretest Windows Binaries have been published in http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. On 1/14/2012 9:05 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > Emacs pretest 23.0.90 is now available for download via FTP, at the > following location: > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.3.90.tar.gz > > This is a pretest for a planned Emacs 23.4 release, which will fix the > security flaw in EDE reported on emacs-devel a few days ago. It also > fixes many other bugs in Emacs 23.3, but contains no new features. > > Please help give this as much testing as possible over the next few > days, as I hope to make the Emacs 23.4 release from this if no > significant problems are found in this pretest. > > Please send me an email reporting success or failure on your build > platform, and report bugs that you find via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or > email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. > > Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 16:19:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmXUD-0003LY-QL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:19:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57705) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmXUA-0003J2-2k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:19:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmXU7-0000bw-NF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:19:30 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:56990 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmXU7-0000W5-AO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:19:27 -0500 Received: (qmail 5446 invoked by uid 3782); 15 Jan 2012 21:19:22 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9556B74.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.107.116]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:19:20 +0100 Received: (qmail 4734 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jan 2012 21:12:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:12:40 +0000 To: Kan-Ru Chen Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120115211240.GA4693@acm.acm> References: <83vcpxbxn0.fsf@gnu.org> <20111203151824.GA4566@acm.acm> <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:19:31 -0000 Hello, Kanru! On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:06:00AM +0800, Kan-Ru Chen wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > Please forgive me for using the other files, it is closer to the real > case. You can get the file from > https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/raw-file/tip/dom/base/nsDOMClassInfo.cpp Ah yes, this wonderful file! Here's another patch which contains more optimisations than my last patch. Could you apply it _instead_ of the previous patch, and let me know how it goes, please. The more serious editing you can do with it, particularly on C++ files, the better. Anyhow, here's the patch: *** orig/cc-engine.el 2011-12-15 09:06:28.000000000 +0000 --- cc-engine.el 2012-01-15 19:20:01.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 2075,2081 **** ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;; We maintain a simple cache of positions which aren't in a literal, so as to ;; speed up testing for non-literality. ! (defconst c-state-nonlit-pos-interval 10000) ;; The approximate interval between entries in `c-state-nonlit-pos-cache'. (defvar c-state-nonlit-pos-cache nil) --- 2075,2081 ---- ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;; We maintain a simple cache of positions which aren't in a literal, so as to ;; speed up testing for non-literality. ! (defconst c-state-nonlit-pos-interval 3000) ;; The approximate interval between entries in `c-state-nonlit-pos-cache'. (defvar c-state-nonlit-pos-cache nil) *************** *** 2130,2136 **** (widen) (save-excursion (let ((c c-state-nonlit-pos-cache) ! pos npos lit) ;; Trim the cache to take account of buffer changes. (while (and c (> (car c) c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit)) (setq c (cdr c))) --- 2130,2136 ---- (widen) (save-excursion (let ((c c-state-nonlit-pos-cache) ! pos npos lit macro-beg) ;; Trim the cache to take account of buffer changes. (while (and c (> (car c) c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit)) (setq c (cdr c))) *************** *** 2140,2160 **** (setq c (cdr c))) (setq pos (or (car c) (point-min))) ! (while (<= (setq npos (+ pos c-state-nonlit-pos-interval)) ! here) ! (setq lit (car (cddr (c-state-pp-to-literal pos npos)))) ! (setq pos (or (cdr lit) npos)) ; end of literal containing npos. (goto-char pos) (when (and (c-beginning-of-macro) (/= (point) pos)) ! (c-syntactic-end-of-macro) ! (or (eobp) (forward-char)) ! (setq pos (point))) ! (setq c-state-nonlit-pos-cache (cons pos c-state-nonlit-pos-cache))) (if (> pos c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit) (setq c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit pos)) pos)))) ! (defun c-state-literal-at (here) ;; If position HERE is inside a literal, return (START . END), the ;; boundaries of the literal (which may be outside the accessible bit of the --- 2140,2177 ---- (setq c (cdr c))) (setq pos (or (car c) (point-min))) ! (while ! ;; Add an element to `c-state-nonlit-pos-cache' each iteration. ! (and ! (<= (setq npos (+ pos c-state-nonlit-pos-interval)) here) ! (progn ! (setq lit (car (cddr (c-state-pp-to-literal pos npos)))) ! (cond ! ((null lit) ! (setq pos npos) ! t) ! ((<= (cdr lit) here) ! (setq pos (cdr lit)) ! t) ! (t ! (setq pos (car lit)) ! nil)))) ! (goto-char pos) (when (and (c-beginning-of-macro) (/= (point) pos)) ! (setq macro-beg (point)) ! (c-syntactic-end-of-macro) ! (or (eobp) (forward-char)) ! (setq pos (if (<= (point) here) ! (point) ! macro-beg))) ! (setq c-state-nonlit-pos-cache (cons pos c-state-nonlit-pos-cache))) (if (> pos c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit) (setq c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit pos)) pos)))) ! ;;;; END OF NEW STOUGH, 2012-01-14 ! (defun c-state-literal-at (here) ;; If position HERE is inside a literal, return (START . END), the ;; boundaries of the literal (which may be outside the accessible bit of the *************** *** 4362,4367 **** --- 4379,4456 ---- (t 'c))) ; Assuming the range is valid. range)) + (defsubst c-determine-limit-get-base (start try-size) + ;; Get a "safe place" approximately TRY-SIZE characters before START. + ;; This doesn't preserve point. + (let* ((pos (max (- start try-size) (point-min))) + (base (c-state-safe-place pos)) + (s (parse-partial-sexp base pos))) + (if (or (nth 4 s) (nth 3 s)) ; comment or string + (nth 8 s) + (point)))) + + (defun c-determine-limit (how-far-back &optional start try-size) + ;; Return a buffer position HOW-FAR-BACK non-literal characters from START + ;; (default point). This is done by going back further in the buffer then + ;; searching forward for literals. The position found won't be in a + ;; literal. We start searching for the sought position TRY-SIZE (default + ;; twice HOW-FAR-BACK) bytes back from START. This function must be fast. + ;; :-) + (save-excursion + (let* ((start (or start (point))) + (try-size (or try-size (* 2 how-far-back))) + (base (c-determine-limit-get-base start try-size)) + (pos base) + + (s (parse-partial-sexp pos pos)) ; null state. + stack elt size + (count 0)) + (while (< pos start) + ;; Move forward one literal each time round this loop. + ;; Move forward to the start of a comment or string. + (setq s (parse-partial-sexp + pos + start + nil ; target-depth + nil ; stop-before + s ; state + 'syntax-table)) ; stop-comment + + ;; Gather details of the non-literal-bit - starting pos and size. + (setq size (- (if (or (nth 4 s) (nth 3 s)) + (nth 8 s) + (point)) + pos)) + (if (> size 0) + (setq stack (cons (cons pos size) stack))) + + ;; Move forward to the end of the comment/string. + (if (or (nth 4 s) (nth 3 s)) + (setq s (parse-partial-sexp + (point) + start + nil ; target-depth + nil ; stop-before + s ; state + 'syntax-table))) ; stop-comment + (setq pos (point))) + + ;; Now try and find enough non-literal characters recorded on the stack. + ;; Go back one recorded literal each time round this loop. + (while (and (< count how-far-back) + stack) + (setq elt (car stack) + stack (cdr stack)) + (setq count (+ count (cdr elt)))) + + ;; Have we found enough yet? + (cond + ((>= count how-far-back) + (+ (car elt) (- count how-far-back))) + ((eq base (point-min)) + (point-min)) + (t + (c-determine-limit (- how-far-back count) base try-size)))))) ;; `c-find-decl-spots' and accompanying stuff. *************** *** 4498,4510 **** ;; Call CFD-FUN for each possible spot for a declaration, cast or ;; label from the point to CFD-LIMIT. ;; ! ;; CFD-FUN is called with point at the start of the spot. It's ! ;; passed two arguments: The first is the end position of the token ! ;; preceding the spot, or 0 for the implicit match at bob. The ! ;; second is a flag that is t when the match is inside a macro. If ! ;; CFD-FUN adds `c-decl-end' properties somewhere below the current ! ;; spot, it should return non-nil to ensure that the next search ! ;; will find them. ;; ;; Such a spot is: ;; o The first token after bob. --- 4587,4600 ---- ;; Call CFD-FUN for each possible spot for a declaration, cast or ;; label from the point to CFD-LIMIT. ;; ! ;; CFD-FUN is called with point at the start of the spot. It's passed two ! ;; arguments: The first is the end position of the token preceding the spot, ! ;; or 0 for the implicit match at bob. The second is a flag that is t when ! ;; the match is inside a macro. Point should be moved forward by at least ! ;; one token. ! ;; ! ;; If CFD-FUN adds `c-decl-end' properties somewhere below the current spot, ! ;; it should return non-nil to ensure that the next search will find them. ;; ;; Such a spot is: ;; o The first token after bob. *************** *** 4903,4909 **** (goto-char cfd-continue-pos) (if (= cfd-continue-pos cfd-limit) (setq cfd-match-pos cfd-limit) ! (c-find-decl-prefix-search))))) ;; A cache for found types. --- 4993,5000 ---- (goto-char cfd-continue-pos) (if (= cfd-continue-pos cfd-limit) (setq cfd-match-pos cfd-limit) ! (c-find-decl-prefix-search))))) ; Moves point, sets cfd-continue-pos, ! ; cfd-match-pos, etc. ;; A cache for found types. *************** *** 8073,8078 **** --- 8164,8186 ---- next-open-brace (c-pull-open-brace paren-state))) open-brace)) + (defun c-cheap-inside-bracelist-p (paren-state) + ;; Return the position of the L-brace if point is inside a brace list + ;; initialization of an array, etc. This is an approximate function, + ;; designed for speed over accuracy. It will not find every bracelist, but + ;; a non-nil result is reliable. We simply search for "= {" (naturally with + ;; syntactic whitespace allowed). PAREN-STATE is the normal thing that it + ;; is everywhere else. + (let (b-pos) + (save-excursion + (while + (and (setq b-pos (c-pull-open-brace paren-state)) + (progn (goto-char b-pos) + (c-backward-sws) + (c-backward-token-2) + (not (looking-at "="))))) + b-pos))) + (defun c-inside-bracelist-p (containing-sexp paren-state) ;; return the buffer position of the beginning of the brace list ;; statement if we're inside a brace list, otherwise return nil. *** orig/cc-fonts.el 2011-12-15 09:06:28.000000000 +0000 --- cc-fonts.el 2012-01-15 18:41:00.000000000 +0000 *************** *** 407,416 **** ;; `parse-sexp-lookup-properties' (when it exists). (parse-sexp-lookup-properties (cc-eval-when-compile ! (boundp 'parse-sexp-lookup-properties)))) (goto-char (let ((here (point))) ! (if (eq (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1)) 'same) (point) here))) ,(c-make-font-lock-search-form regexp highlights)) --- 407,418 ---- ;; `parse-sexp-lookup-properties' (when it exists). (parse-sexp-lookup-properties (cc-eval-when-compile ! (boundp 'parse-sexp-lookup-properties))) ! (BOD-limit ! (c-determine-limit 1000))) (goto-char (let ((here (point))) ! (if (eq (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1 BOD-limit)) 'same) (point) here))) ,(c-make-font-lock-search-form regexp highlights)) *************** *** 1206,1211 **** --- 1208,1214 ---- ;; it finds any. That's necessary so that we later will ;; stop inside them to fontify types there. (c-parse-and-markup-<>-arglists t) + lbrace ; position of some {. ;; The font-lock package in Emacs is known to clobber ;; `parse-sexp-lookup-properties' (when it exists). (parse-sexp-lookup-properties *************** *** 1317,1323 **** (or (looking-at c-typedef-key) (goto-char start-pos))) - ;; Now analyze the construct. ;; In QT, "more" is an irritating keyword that expands to nothing. ;; We skip over it to prevent recognition of "more slots: " ;; as a bitfield declaration. --- 1320,1325 ---- *************** *** 1326,1331 **** --- 1328,1335 ---- (concat "\\(more\\)\\([^" c-symbol-chars "]\\|$\\)"))) (goto-char (match-end 1)) (c-forward-syntactic-ws)) + + ;; Now analyze the construct. (setq decl-or-cast (c-forward-decl-or-cast-1 match-pos context last-cast-end)) *************** *** 1394,1408 **** (c-fontify-recorded-types-and-refs) nil) (t ;; Are we at a declarator? Try to go back to the declaration ;; to check this. If we get there, check whether a "typedef" ;; is there, then fontify the declarators accordingly. ! (let ((decl-search-lim (max (- (point) 50000) (point-min))) paren-state bod-res encl-pos is-typedef c-recognize-knr-p) ; Strictly speaking, bogus, but it ; speeds up lisp.h tremendously. (save-excursion (setq bod-res (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1 decl-search-lim))) (if (and (eq bod-res 'same) (progn --- 1398,1449 ---- (c-fontify-recorded-types-and-refs) nil) + ;; Restore point, since at this point in the code it has been + ;; left undefined by c-forward-decl-or-cast-1 above. + ((progn (goto-char start-pos) nil)) + + ;; If point is inside a bracelist, there's no point checking it + ;; being at a declarator. + ((let ((paren-state (c-parse-state))) + (setq lbrace (c-cheap-inside-bracelist-p paren-state))) + ;; Move past this bracelist to prevent an endless loop. + (goto-char lbrace) + (unless (c-safe (progn (forward-list) t)) + (goto-char start-point) + (c-forward-token-2)) + nil) + + ;; If point is just after a ")" which is followed by an + ;; identifier which isn't a label, or at the matching "(", we're + ;; at either a macro invocation, a cast, or a + ;; for/while/etc. statement. The cast case is handled above. + ;; None of these cases can contain a declarator. + ((or (and (eq (char-before match-pos) ?\)) + (c-on-identifier) + (save-excursion (not (c-forward-label)))) + (and (eq (char-after) ?\() + (save-excursion + (and + (progn (c-backward-token-2) (c-on-identifier)) + (save-excursion (not (c-forward-label))) + (progn (c-backward-token-2) + (eq (char-after) ?\()))))) + (c-forward-token-2) ; Must prevent looping. + nil) + (t ;; Are we at a declarator? Try to go back to the declaration ;; to check this. If we get there, check whether a "typedef" ;; is there, then fontify the declarators accordingly. ! (let ((decl-search-lim ;; (max (- (point) 50000) (point-min)) ! (c-determine-limit 1000)) paren-state bod-res encl-pos is-typedef c-recognize-knr-p) ; Strictly speaking, bogus, but it ; speeds up lisp.h tremendously. (save-excursion + (unless (or (eobp) + (looking-at "\\s(\\|\\s)")) + (forward-char)) (setq bod-res (car (c-beginning-of-decl-1 decl-search-lim))) (if (and (eq bod-res 'same) (progn *************** *** 1865,1873 **** `((,(c-make-font-lock-BO-decl-search-function (concat "\\<\\(" (c-make-keywords-re nil ! (append (c-lang-const c-type-list-kwds) ! (c-lang-const c-ref-list-kwds) ! (c-lang-const c-colon-type-list-kwds))) "\\)\\>") '((c-fontify-types-and-refs ((c-promote-possible-types t)) (c-forward-keyword-clause 1) --- 1906,1915 ---- `((,(c-make-font-lock-BO-decl-search-function (concat "\\<\\(" (c-make-keywords-re nil ! (append (c-lang-const c-type-list-kwds) ; operator (C++). import, implements, etc. (Java). ! (c-lang-const c-ref-list-kwds) ; namespace (C++). package (Java). ! (c-lang-const c-colon-type-list-kwds))) ; class, struct (C++). The colon is what ! ; introduces an inheritance list. "\\)\\>") '((c-fontify-types-and-refs ((c-promote-possible-types t)) (c-forward-keyword-clause 1) > -- > Kanru -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 17:16:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmYN4-00086v-Si for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:16:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56808) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYN2-00086p-UN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:16:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYN2-0007UB-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:16:12 -0500 Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com ([74.208.5.67]:34740) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYN1-0007TR-TU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:16:12 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Jan 2012 22:16:05 -0000 Received: from c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net (EHLO bagel) [174.56.1.147] by mail.gmx.com (mp-us006) with SMTP; 15 Jan 2012 17:16:05 -0500 X-Authenticated: #67821228 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+XoCl0CP6XYDuZb8de91TBTiXJ59sm5myK9wnQYX gYQnkPtpeLh7yT From: Eric Schulte To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:15:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:10 -0500") Message-ID: <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.208.5.67 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Jose E. Marchesi" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:16:14 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> C-M-S-s-z is undefined. > > A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. > BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. > how about, (defun cat-command () "A command for cats." (interactive) (require 'animate) (let ((mouse " ___00 ~~/____'> \" \"") (h-pos (floor (/ (window-height) 2))) (contents (buffer-string)) (mouse-buffer (generate-new-buffer "*mouse*"))) (save-excursion (switch-to-buffer mouse-buffer) (insert contents) (setq truncate-lines t) (animate-string mouse h-pos 0) (dotimes (_ (window-width)) (sit-for 0.01) (dotimes (n 3) (goto-line (+ h-pos n 2)) (move-to-column 0) (insert " ")))) (kill-buffer mouse-buffer))) -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 17:28:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmYYX-00014Q-4P for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:28:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46439) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYYU-000108-PH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:28:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYYT-0000UZ-Mj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:28:02 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:32916) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmYYS-0000U5-6V; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:28:00 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1486222lag.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:27:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DPuYQGjVgL4ZwZfC1P0YxvRiwAoMnS82L/JYxzPNVos=; b=BHJB6ItCYXtU9yCm1pgM1WdYz+/r99lXNIxVoMacEjFl+lsioYsAtTA13i/1KzATTv eIxKM7QouzWFiXSlb5w0oCv4eRgluUNqaoDXkf/6CaA9gpfXwfbfhWOyEhlh9IuaQ+Xj rYafOytUlJaXrlZNHwOAUxXlOH0Xt9ZMpd9y0= Received: by 10.152.136.39 with SMTP id px7mr4751572lab.2.1326666478222; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:27:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:27:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:27:37 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs To: Eric Schulte Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: "Jose E. Marchesi" , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:28:03 -0000 On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 23:15, Eric Schulte wrote: > (defun cat-command () > =C2=A0"A command for cats." I am not a cat, but I still liked that :-) From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 18:11:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmZEr-0006Jt-KW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44795) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZEp-0006Jc-4i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZEn-0005iu-UA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:47 -0500 Received: from granite2.mail.cornell.edu ([128.253.83.142]:60031 helo=authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZEn-0005hz-R2; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:45 -0500 Received: from [172.160.101.56] ([216.64.91.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu (8.14.4/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q0FNBa7W026843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4F135D26.8050103@cornell.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:11:34 -0500 From: Ken Brown User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PMX-CORNELL-SPAM-CHECKED: Pawpaw X-PMX-Version: 5.5.9.395186, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.1.15.225714 X-Original-Sender: kbrown@cornell.edu - Sun Jan 15 18:11:39 2012 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 128.253.83.142 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:11:48 -0000 On 1/14/2012 11:05 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > Emacs pretest 23.0.90 is now available for download via FTP, at the > following location: > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.3.90.tar.gz > > This is a pretest for a planned Emacs 23.4 release, which will fix the > security flaw in EDE reported on emacs-devel a few days ago. It also > fixes many other bugs in Emacs 23.3, but contains no new features. > > Please help give this as much testing as possible over the next few > days, as I hope to make the Emacs 23.4 release from this if no > significant problems are found in this pretest. > > Please send me an email reporting success or failure on your build > platform, and report bugs that you find via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or > email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. This doesn't build if USE_MMAP_FOR_BUFFERS is defined. The following patch fixes it: --- buffer.c~ 2012-01-11 07:35:01.000000000 -0500 +++ buffer.c 2012-01-15 17:55:45.812514400 -0500 @@ -5338,7 +5338,7 @@ Map new memory. */ struct buffer *b; - for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->next) + for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->header.next.buffer) if (b->text->beg == NULL) enlarge_buffer_text (b, 0); } Ken From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 15 18:52:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmZsc-0003DR-LQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:52:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52137) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZsa-0003CP-7U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:52:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZsZ-0002RU-3u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:52:52 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39076) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmZsY-0002RJ-Te for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:52:51 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so164780iad.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:52:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=wBBW6UpgD1bYp+Ocigh9LVxAGelSE2AaVCxRyA9iNQY=; b=Wot9L1eQVPJq4tZBR9nJH/BpnCs8k8JogNNNNfl9WfwZHyHmN71OcZeC0D94v+OGF6 ia8e+5QggbaYmAMcLENR8tJzpcRFRdVc4Bl5IXVg4Y6RbukzSIFPHCyWPRjam0UV10jT aPuXTGFqGVQrneLBND2iPg3QUWRuwf2MQm0uU= Received: by 10.42.162.197 with SMTP id z5mr8227467icx.48.1326671569888; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from JAMBU-NETBOOK ([101.63.135.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xu6sm29846902igb.7.2012.01.15.15.52.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jambunathan K To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cc: Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs In-Reply-To: <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> (Eric Schulte's message of "Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:15:54 -0700") References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 05:22:35 +0530 Message-ID: <81r4z0msl8.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:52:53 -0000 Eric Schulte writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>> C-M-S-s-z is undefined. >> >> A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. >> BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. >> > > how about, > > (defun cat-command () > "A command for cats." My cat continues to see "C-M-S-s-z is undefined" as reported by the OC. When it ran the above command with M-x cat-command it was not at all happy with the new implementation. It's terribly upset that it's survival will be a big question mark if Emacs-24.1 got released with this patch. It is planning an OCCUPY FSF movement with all other cats to protest against the acceptance of this patch. Please provide a different implementation that will make my and OP's cat stay with Emacs and not switch to Notepad. -- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 00:12:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rmes9-00028e-EI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:12:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51284) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmes6-00023r-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:12:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmes5-0001hg-0T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:12:42 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:56572) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmes4-0001ha-Rc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:12:40 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so572655iad.0 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:12:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type; bh=Sx/GwlMxCIPuOp+ABpXiOihDTNpyUP/r093uXt/H9bI=; b=gUFYOlOX3d8Yz8sCBAkS5K3XWgK0JD696BH/C7hUTjVIqgyaUBQEwIXQX5Mo7oPgvE zDINK47nTO1Ia4s/GYRV/jk568dPXWjfLMipSsujjh02ZrShg9Neo4xsTrOr9CneFfr2 ROxP7e9CwXljse6DlnpKtAeac3VPbQ7XrdRWg= Received: by 10.43.133.9 with SMTP id hw9mr10872509icc.34.1326690759893; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from JAMBU-NETBOOK ([115.241.81.58]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id va6sm31217204igc.6.2012.01.15.21.12.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:12:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jambunathan K To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> <81r4z0msl8.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:27 +0530 In-Reply-To: <81r4z0msl8.fsf@gmail.com> (Jambunathan K.'s message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 05:22:35 +0530") Message-ID: <818vl8kz7o.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 05:12:43 -0000 Jambunathan K writes: > Eric Schulte writes: > >> Stefan Monnier writes: >> >>>> C-M-S-s-z is undefined. >>> >>> A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. >>> BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. >>> >> >> how about, >> >> (defun cat-command () >> "A command for cats." > > My cat continues to see "C-M-S-s-z is undefined" as reported by the > OC. > > When it ran the above command with M-x cat-command it was not at all > happy with the new implementation. It's terribly upset that it's > survival will be a big question mark if Emacs-24.1 got released with > this patch. It is planning an OCCUPY FSF movement with all other cats to > protest against the acceptance of this patch. > > Please provide a different implementation that will make my and OP's cat > stay with Emacs and not switch to Notepad. The two neighbourhood cats[1] that love cowsay[2] - only because they appear on it - asked me to forward the following FR (in style). Hope it is considered for Emacs-24.1. $ echo "i can has cheezburger" | cowsay -f kitty _______________________ < i can has cheezburger > ----------------------- \ \ ("`-' '-/") .___..--' ' "`-._ ` *_ * ) `-. ( ) .`-.__. `) (_Y_.) ' ._ ) `._` ; `` -. .-' _.. `--'_..-_/ /--' _ .' ,4 ( i l ),-'' ( l i),' ( ( ! .-' $ echo "i can has cheezburger" | cowsay -f meow _______________________ < i can has cheezburger > ----------------------- \ \ , _ ___.--'''`--''//-,-_--_. \`"' ` || \\ \ \\/ / // / ,-\\`,_ /'` \ \ || Y | \|/ / // / - |__ `-, /@"\ ` \ `\ | | ||/ // | \/ \ `-._`-,_., / _.-. `.-\,___/\ _/|_/_\_\/|_/ | `-._._) `-'``/ / | // \__/\__ / \__/ \ `-' /-\/ | -| \__ \ |-' | __/\ / _/ \/ __,-' ) ,' _|' (((__/(((_.' ((___..-'((__,' Footnotes: [1] Are they cats? [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowsay -- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 00:49:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmfRx-0005Do-34 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:49:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34171) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmfRs-0005BO-J3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:49:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmfOE-0006Qx-N0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:46:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58867) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmfOC-0006LK-9D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:45:52 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmfOB-0002o9-5g; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:45:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:45:51 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Monnier In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:44:10 -0500) Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, jemarch@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 05:49:41 -0000 A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. If we have mouse commands, we need cat commands too. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 04:33:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmiwO-0000qW-WD for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:33:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48498) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmiwH-0000n6-M7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:33:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmiwF-0005U7-Rw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:33:17 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50333) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmiwF-0005Tu-GG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:33:15 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RmiwB-0005dd-8Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:33:11 +0100 Received: from 119.255.41.67 ([119.255.41.67]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:33:11 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 119.255.41.67 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:33:11 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: This is what happens when your cat uses your Emacs Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:32:57 +0800 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <87ty3yrrwk.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqekpq79.fsf@gmx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 119.255.41.67 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUKDAg1NjRWV1V9fnyg op/DxcLk5uP8/voi63ReAAAACXBIWXMAAAWJAAAFiQFtaJ36AAAAB3RJTUUH1goZAgAz00bgXgAA AeVJREFUKM9lk0Fz2jAQhQXJD3CCO70CmcC1YMtcWyTZ14Bl69xats4N9r6/3zWQBlodNKNPu/s0 b1cCQFuZGpfVVh3vAvBJolIXRkapSuoRUtIdFyo1Y5xSdlAj7OtvD1XnXxmWRi+eWgcxyCed1lVV B1CrKyujMoi+eLA5kU1SsjoHlW+nQjTtFxk4MXgrOxvIqzoTZR8XgPaLl419zgsMaSGFPiUOZCIh thsx5Xy9NsK8Kwf/JoQgMxcVJ301HKkcSWaT0O7FY056J4U9xcYfnmVXG4801lW6lqwu2nKFZoHC HuzvaTVndZ+LaRQgZdthXw1cpynEkLEwyFHXk/aIxNQ6QeooJuzPMB+wn+D7JJNsiCcVA13/A3h/ xE9J+WidpAwoYNmRFwyvSRhNVtsdaAewzZZP5uw82QL9+tyNfocyP0McAzICUr5Mk9RdIjWasUNx aIIt6NK4ZtXIMdfMQt3nuMAyWbLI4DqZ4xPq/ag8jPond4XU/cLuOgw6XCFX/YCUfcDAMMH58fD4 G9kDchwfqVefkBwup2uZM+Q4WhJt5jN3AxXCsaS2yXEDuWgS8VOzW0gFjhEPmLyFMKBFaLb1HRwc DiaKwx0EeTMRYnYPQRW3PP4HApvlMv0PttX5v/D6Aws3IOSEwzmLAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.90 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:opnYpE6llS9iTRzFZNydP9xCh78= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:23 -0000 On 2012-01-16 06:15 +0800, Eric Schulte wrote: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>> C-M-S-s-z is undefined. >> >> A proof if ever that Emacs users need cats. >> BTW, we should probably bind it to some cat command. >> > > how about, > > (defun cat-command () > "A command for cats." > (interactive) > (require 'animate) > (let ((mouse " > ___00 > ~~/____'> > \" \"") > (h-pos (floor (/ (window-height) 2))) > (contents (buffer-string)) > (mouse-buffer (generate-new-buffer "*mouse*"))) > (save-excursion > (switch-to-buffer mouse-buffer) > (insert contents) > (setq truncate-lines t) > (animate-string mouse h-pos 0) > (dotimes (_ (window-width)) > (sit-for 0.01) > (dotimes (n 3) > (goto-line (+ h-pos n 2)) > (move-to-column 0) > (insert " ")))) > (kill-buffer mouse-buffer))) Should this be added to the startup screen? Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 04:41:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rmj48-0002Gj-0N for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:41:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47365) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmj45-0002Gd-R1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:41:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmj3z-0007GO-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:41:21 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:58681) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmj3z-0007GG-O6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:41:15 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1718228lag.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:41:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:subject:user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; bh=Gbn+Qouj+GyeUs/ayaCZ5evrnELahl6WHI+S7QGC1bs=; b=LMAgY1AfU4y9UY5pCoLjhh3faZd0XXhogJoQGc7Nr0+lUVObevTzykN7y3cLljXoG9 Bj/3fq0VeD0rao10moNJYmCwENb3MlF1+OcL8Kr1T4/hKMSIw2pUzv4LIna9/ItuwRgF 9U/dGzvCnnDMrt5xQkqzgi/2ZWS5WQTFKXmCo= Received: by 10.112.100.199 with SMTP id fa7mr2741457lbb.89.1326706873179; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (netinfo62.cnam.fr. [163.173.231.102]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m3sm16837753lbm.17.2012.01.16.01.41.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:41:12 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 86AD713E2A; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Multiple regions User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100 Message-ID: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:41:23 -0000 I found this library to be quite useful: http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? Thanks, -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 06:32:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rmknq-00007z-OB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:32:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35010) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmknj-00006S-Bu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:32:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmknh-0000x2-HU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:32:35 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]:53343) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmknh-0000wk-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:32:33 -0500 Received: by wgbdr12 with SMTP id dr12so1317370wgb.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:32:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CICz/FOKfbKSrUWZgYAlGt7b6UV7/E1eq7x8cNma4Vs=; b=Sswa8bhc3vVt6QahPily3jQ1nVhdBcqwBgGOhM+LAP56oX6gT8lhHzHtPy73JIQBtK apgwqJ19QT52Lg7xp9QT9247UsyBgX3cnhQbSSfJ1RbqsqySKKBUUOwsYEsoyRBeh28Q iBC/lF2RdD24jgYtN6M3dBWQlC4wGiJgET1ms= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.84.163 with SMTP id a3mr23742465wiz.3.1326713550271; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.25.140 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:32:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:32:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port From: emacs user To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.41 Cc: railwaycat@gmail.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= , mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:32:40 -0000 This version seems to have the same memory problem (not returning memory to the OS) as the regular gnu emacs on OS X. Aquamacs seems not to have this issue...(?) From: Xu Xin On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:07 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > The 28th update of the Mac port, which is experimental/hackers-only, > is now available from > > ftp://ftp.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp/emacs/emacs-23.3.90-mac-1.9998.tar.gz > > This version is based on Emacs 23.3.90 pretest. I hope I can release > version 2.0 shortly after the Emacs 23.4 release. > > ** Fixed bugs > > *** Wrong relief display for sliced images. > Adapt a fix for Bug#10500. > > ** Improvements > > *** If Emacs.app is launched from Finder or via Resume, and there is > no ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist file, then it inherits environment > variable settings of user's login shell. Note that if Emacs.app is > launched via the `open' command on Mac OS X 10.4 and later, then it > inherits environment variable settings of the shell where the command > is invoked, and this behavior is unchanged. > > YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu > Hi All, I updated the self-contained build of Emacs 23 Mac port with the newest patch emacs-23.3.90-mac-1.9998. Check it out with https://github.com/downloads/railwaycat/emacs-mac-port/Emacs.zip -- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 07:04:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmlIo-0005xX-7F for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56219) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmlIh-0005xN-AR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmlIe-0006Mk-1b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:35 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35616) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmlId-0006Mf-UR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:32 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmlIb-000401-Rr; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:29 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Bastien In-reply-to: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Bastien on Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100) Subject: Re: Multiple regions References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:04:41 -0000 > From: Bastien > Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100 > > I found this library to be quite useful: > > http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el > > Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? What is wrong with that library that you'd like to support multiple regions natively? Anyway, there's no such item in etc/TODO, so I guess the answer is no. Volunteers are welcome, as always. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 08:01:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmmBt-0008Px-Sl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58253) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBl-0008Pp-80 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBf-0007ER-Gz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:29 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBf-0007EG-9P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:23 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBb-0002uL-Mb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:21 +0100 Received: from 94-21-239-7.pool.digikabel.hu ([94.21.239.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:19 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 94-21-239-7.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:19 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Re: Multiple regions Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:01:07 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 94.21.239.7 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:01:37 -0000 Eli Zaretskii gnu.org> writes: > > What is wrong with that library that you'd like to support multiple > regions natively? > Native support for multiple regions could also support narrowing the buffer to multiple non-contiguous regions which would come in handy. For example, in the structural regular expressions thread it came up as a possible way to implement the feature: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-09/msg00230.html From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 08:01:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmmCA-0000OF-8J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58396) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmC3-0000Kf-IS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBx-0007Ht-7s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:47 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59314) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBx-0007HU-1h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:01:41 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmBv-00033D-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:39 +0100 Received: from 123.114.39.127 ([123.114.39.127]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:39 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 123.114.39.127 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:01:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:01:20 +0800 Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 123.114.39.127 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.90 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LvTjXfHwTQO+J01J2PB6PI2O3XU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:01:52 -0000 On 2012-01-16 19:32 +0800, emacs user wrote: > This version seems to have the same memory problem (not returning > memory to the OS) as the regular gnu emacs on OS X. Aquamacs seems > not to have this issue...(?) My emacs (mac port 1.9998) is consuming 122M ram ATM. but it is only up for 8 hours. My previous emacs (mac port 1.9992) has never crashed or slowed down in any way. It is so perfect that I keep a copy of it in both binary and source form. And it can run on end for over a month. Very impressive. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 08:34:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmmhW-000524-6q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45321) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmhP-00051q-8B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmhJ-0004QS-MG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36907) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmhJ-0004QN-H3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:05 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmmhJ-0000as-Bu; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:34:05 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Tom In-reply-to: (message from Tom on Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:01:07 +0000 (UTC)) Subject: Re: Multiple regions References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:34:16 -0000 > From: Tom > Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:01:07 +0000 (UTC) > > Native support for multiple regions could also support narrowing > the buffer to multiple non-contiguous regions Narrowing and region are implemented in two entirely separate and unrelated parts of Emacs internals. The latter is tightly coupled with the display engine, the former is unrelated to display. So you can have one without the other and vice versa. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 09:32:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rmnbh-00067j-Kg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42012) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmnbW-00067N-NY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmnbN-0006ts-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:10 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:44278) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmnbN-0006to-0H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:01 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EANYyFE9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABDFqwWgQqBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA0ItVCJXQIBAQgCDBEDCQEBBgEFHgoEAQIBAQIBAgECAQEBAQKCeAEGAgMHAQQBAQEBhA0EiDuaY4RS X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,518,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156990034" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 16 Jan 2012 09:32:00 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 1C5E06610D; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:00 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Bastien Subject: Re: Multiple regions Message-ID: References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:32:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> (Bastien's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:32:20 -0000 > I found this library to be quite useful: > http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el > Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? Plans, no. But I think it would be good to do it. This said, I think such an implementation would first want to move call-interactively to Elisp code. And it will need to do a delicate redesign of the region code. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 09:39:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmniY-0007f5-Tm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33844) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmniR-0007cl-C4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmniM-0008E1-Tb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:19 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:44571) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmniM-0008Dq-Gs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:14 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1925216lag.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:39:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ylHR2THgSQEe7BVhevkbNWpA++bTct5oUdqP7Yi5Zos=; b=PxerWTlySdO0MMkj3zPUNohAxgzVr6/ZTIxbrrhMGpfKwyxES69acnL2aPs5kOLpRx NCHOLp/dFZMiYfZgF/oKVIGHu9t49xtZ18mePB1sNL5uoZEPhuIqtQxx5yYs2sgPu8Ro 3B1+m9O2RXgPIOBBfaYoKFfYtDD/AB2oYi7yE= Received: by 10.152.148.228 with SMTP id tv4mr6220255lab.9.1326724753266; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:39:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:38:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:38:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Multiple regions To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: Bastien , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:39:25 -0000 On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 15:32, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >> I found this library to be quite useful: >> =C2=A0 http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el >> Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? > > Plans, no. =C2=A0But I think it would be good to do it. =C2=A0This said, = I think > such an implementation would first want to move call-interactively to > Elisp code. =C2=A0And it will need to do a delicate redesign of the regio= n code. If that ever happens then I think it should cover the case "multiple major modes". (My idea is that multiple major modes can be reliably implemented by giving functions involved relevant regions of the buffer as they are and the other regions just as whitespace (visible characters replaced by space, newline probably best preserved). But that requires deep and complicated changes to Emacs.) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 10:11:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmoE1-0007AB-I1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:11:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41374) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoDz-0007A5-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:11:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoDx-0006ek-SO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:11:55 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:44833) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoDr-0006eV-DM; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:11:47 -0500 Received: by wgbdq13 with SMTP id dq13so513789wgb.30 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:11:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=JQm2cgZubmjWPeaqS7VRXCi70BJlWI8x7fto14E3RzY=; b=pc9wFvuzOoIVHrGW+K1Hh9o/OSuFsSbGDum8yC8vcS76HYTXuw0z3cyDaoB16S2++J 4KjbkObw66qoUxaI+MrY8Oe+yVSsPEUGRH9ULbOxP5z7cJjDHeKfu7b2kp4ND5h6gblZ 5fBGcninoKSgW1A+fk1O2bfSiiW0efYz69f98= Received: by 10.180.81.72 with SMTP id y8mr20729798wix.14.1326726706156; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (netinfo62.cnam.fr. [163.173.231.102]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q34sm22609014wbm.15.2012.01.16.07.11.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:11:45 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B583213E2A; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:12:57 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Multiple regions In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:04:29 -0500") References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:12:56 +0100 Message-ID: <8762gbel53.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:11:56 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Bastien >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:42:24 +0100 >> >> I found this library to be quite useful: >> >> http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el >> >> Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? > > What is wrong with that library that you'd like to support multiple > regions natively? Nothing wrong with it. But native support is better since it allows other native libraries to rely on such a feature. > Anyway, there's no such item in etc/TODO, so I guess the answer is > no. Volunteers are welcome, as always. Thanks for the answer. My plate is full right now, but I might follow this closely. -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 10:14:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmoGv-0008Ej-9w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:14:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoGo-0008DZ-IZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:14:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoGj-0007Iq-6Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:14:50 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:50255) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoGj-0007IY-1d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:14:45 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmo4q-0000IT-8e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:02:28 +0100 Received: from e4300lm.epcc.ed.ac.uk ([129.215.63.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:02:28 +0100 Received: from wence by e4300lm.epcc.ed.ac.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:02:28 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lawrence Mitchell Subject: Re: Multiple regions Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:01:53 +0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <878vl7pu72.fsf@gmx.li> References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: e4300lm.epcc.ed.ac.uk User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:OBw/DdhnS/3JrrQ7JO5WXVP2csg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:14:56 -0000 Bastien wrote: > I found this library to be quite useful: > http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el > Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? That question looks familiar.... digs through old mail .... ah yes. See the thread starting here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-01/msg00022.html Lawrence -- Lawrence Mitchell From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 10:20:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmoMV-0002ld-AF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:20:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36015) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoMP-0002lR-0l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:20:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoMK-0000yc-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:20:36 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:57242) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoMK-0000yS-EI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:20:32 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1956904lag.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:20:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=t+ENpT+88ossenhCoYS/c0avvHnv98ip5IYIHQOPu7A=; b=ECwEY4eZynRnx356T2rd0gxkr+ws8vQhoW3PAi16CFMMdDJf/Jc3H0k8y4LptNFS4g f/Dnmc/+2ayFbFGe4ZTkjO8rYJ8dsFWLL5bGkFqGhtCl4Y8kzexSH8J40CmXmmulE9af 8bob/2pL5Fk9ABco32l3n7mVBdKxKiFLkjATA= Received: by 10.112.85.233 with SMTP id k9mr3130683lbz.56.1326727231133; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (netinfo62.cnam.fr. [163.173.231.102]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hl9sm8703520lab.5.2012.01.16.07.20.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:20:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CE0C613E2A; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:21:42 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Lawrence Mitchell Subject: Re: Multiple regions In-Reply-To: <878vl7pu72.fsf@gmx.li> (Lawrence Mitchell's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:01:53 +0000") References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> <878vl7pu72.fsf@gmx.li> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:21:42 +0100 Message-ID: <87boq3ad15.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:20:42 -0000 Lawrence Mitchell writes: > That question looks familiar.... digs through old mail .... ah > yes. See the thread starting here: > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-01/msg00022.html Thanks! We are all a bit older now, and a bit wiser, hopefully we can move forward. Btw, thanks for your implementation. -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 10:23:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmoPS-0004HQ-G6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36604) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoPL-0004HF-1n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoPE-0001W6-Ti for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:39 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:25859) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoPE-0001Vu-RM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:32 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAD5AFE9FxKkV/2dsb2JhbABDFqwXgQqBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAs0EhQYDSSIDQi1ZYkqCwkNCwYBAgEBCAIMEQMJAQEGAQUeCgQBAgEBAgMBAgEBAQECgngBBgIDBwEEAQEBAYQNBIg7mmOEUg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,518,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="156996824" Received: from 69-196-169-21.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.169.21]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 16 Jan 2012 10:23:31 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 52B8F6610D; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:31 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: Multiple regions Message-ID: References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:31 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:38:52 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Bastien , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:23:44 -0000 >>> I found this library to be quite useful: >>> =A0 http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el >>> Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? >> Plans, no. =A0But I think it would be good to do it. =A0This said, I thi= nk >> such an implementation would first want to move call-interactively to >> Elisp code. =A0And it will need to do a delicate redesign of the region = code. > If that ever happens then I think it should cover the case "multiple > major modes". I don't: handling non-contiguous regions is very easy, compared to handling multiple major modes. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 10:26:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmoST-0005HQ-8D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:26:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41716) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoSI-0005Gc-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:26:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoSE-0002TP-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:26:42 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:40589) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmoSE-0002TA-5x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:26:38 -0500 Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1961427lag.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:26:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JCaqLYQaSbW8cFv2arOF0cUgO2tD5svgO7teGsY85jU=; b=UzGGfgV1zGsHJpO66Boxvo0/O8MU0k1hDobKGomKlEzBEobTZSIaYzThBGuZggdLjg /mT9lTxAit/P7V5cRKND6FQBOSCO6X5eBu7WaWMF6kTinVXqASWCxMekvyC4YwsW0NY6 JfTt8HGCrj9XSOD6lNvzTYCwRAsnfP3Fgb8Tg= Received: by 10.112.28.35 with SMTP id y3mr3233295lbg.66.1326727597134; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:26:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:26:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:26:16 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Multiple regions To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: Bastien , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:26:52 -0000 On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 16:23, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >>>> I found this library to be quite useful: >>>> =C2=A0 http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el >>>> Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? >>> Plans, no. =C2=A0But I think it would be good to do it. =C2=A0This said= , I think >>> such an implementation would first want to move call-interactively to >>> Elisp code. =C2=A0And it will need to do a delicate redesign of the reg= ion code. >> If that ever happens then I think it should cover the case "multiple >> major modes". > > I don't: handling non-contiguous regions is very easy, compared to > handling multiple major modes. Eh, yes, you are right of course ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 11:46:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rmpho-000131-Mf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50107) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmphl-00012C-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmphf-0003zi-S0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:45 -0500 Received: from granite2.mail.cornell.edu ([128.253.83.142]:53786 helo=authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmphf-0003zc-Jn; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:39 -0500 Received: from [172.160.101.56] ([216.64.91.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu (8.14.4/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q0GGkaes020633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4F14546D.4050101@cornell.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:37 -0500 From: Ken Brown User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <4F135D26.8050103@cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: <4F135D26.8050103@cornell.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PMX-CORNELL-SPAM-CHECKED: Pawpaw X-PMX-Version: 5.5.9.395186, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.1.16.163614 X-Original-Sender: kbrown@cornell.edu - Mon Jan 16 11:46:37 2012 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 128.253.83.142 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:46:47 -0000 On 1/15/2012 6:11 PM, Ken Brown wrote: > This doesn't build if USE_MMAP_FOR_BUFFERS is defined. The following > patch fixes it: > > --- buffer.c~ 2012-01-11 07:35:01.000000000 -0500 > +++ buffer.c 2012-01-15 17:55:45.812514400 -0500 > @@ -5338,7 +5338,7 @@ > Map new memory. */ > struct buffer *b; > > - for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->next) > + for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->header.next.buffer) > if (b->text->beg == NULL) > enlarge_buffer_text (b, 0); > } Just to clarify this, the change you missed is revno 104021.1.3 on the trunk: $ bzr log -r104021.1.3 -v -p ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 104021.1.3 committer: Paul Eggert branch nick: atest timestamp: Wed 2011-04-27 01:06:26 -0700 message: * buffer.c (init_buffer) [USE_MMAP_FOR_BUFFERS]: Adjust to aliasing change modified: src/ChangeLog src/buffer.c diff: === modified file 'src/ChangeLog' --- src/ChangeLog 2011-04-27 06:01:43 +0000 +++ src/ChangeLog 2011-04-27 08:06:26 +0000 @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ +2011-04-27 Yoshiaki Kasahara (tiny change) + + * buffer.c (init_buffer) [USE_MMAP_FOR_BUFFERS]: Adjust to aliasing + change. + 2011-04-27 Paul Eggert * nsmenu.m: Replace all uses of XVECTOR with ASIZE and AREF. === modified file 'src/buffer.c' --- src/buffer.c 2011-04-26 06:17:52 +0000 +++ src/buffer.c 2011-04-27 08:06:26 +0000 @@ -5155,7 +5155,7 @@ Map new memory. */ struct buffer *b; - for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->next) + for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->header.next.buffer) if (b->text->beg == NULL) enlarge_buffer_text (b, 0); } From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 19:49:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RmxEo-0000pA-Qh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:49:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57935) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmxEl-0000mU-QG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:49:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmxEk-0001pi-GW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:49:19 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:56530) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RmxEj-0001pB-U0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:49:18 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAC0C055D; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:49:12 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:49:12 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs user Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: railwaycat@gmail.com, Jan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:49:20 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:32:30 +0200, emacs user said: > This version seems to have the same memory problem (not returning > memory to the OS) as the regular gnu emacs on OS X. Aquamacs seems > not to have this issue...(?) Why is "not returning memory to the OS" a "problem"? Whether or when freed memory is returned to the system is up to the implementation of the malloc library and not something applications should care about in general. I don't think the experiment like in http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00561.html makes much sense. What is more important is to identify whether the crash "problem" you see with VM is caused by "not returning memory to the OS" or other reasons. Did you try the procedure I mentioned earlier? http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-12/msg00552.html You should compare the addresses in heap between the second and the third invocations for example, rather then one between before and after the first invocation. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 22:47:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn01U-0001Ob-Sr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59688) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn01S-0001OU-Nz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn01O-0008HZ-UB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:46 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:56390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn01O-00089p-JD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:42 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A60C055D; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:38 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs user Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: railwaycat@gmail.com, Jan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:47:47 -0000 >>>>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:32:30 +0200, emacs user said: > This version seems to have the same memory problem (not returning > memory to the OS) as the regular gnu emacs on OS X. Aquamacs seems > not to have this issue...(?) My guess is that Aquamacs is in 32-bit and the others are in 64-bit. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 16 23:13:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn0Q4-0002sq-KB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:13:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45316) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn0Q1-0002s5-Of for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:13:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn0Q0-0003WE-Ce for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:13:09 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:53257) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn0Q0-0003W4-9i; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:13:08 -0500 Received: by ggnp4 with SMTP id p4so3434541ggn.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:13:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fawcFvS8u8FoZTEIb6dZa7wahbSRPWrucAODH/aLtIk=; b=aUCSS2CP65AV/BAz5+hw8t2YP/sCsJQSjOe4sxOTFBF46eU2mBFXFQQMeyAFkksXw3 WNpTGPoPYPAdQW2P+fBHMbRMcSZ5EmyevxuSxpkGqa8YCaN07ZztlDeKOP6NcGBsOrgo cGj6PaVlxSm8NbzyiRL3YpG+K4AVSM/vD/MLE= Received: by 10.236.91.84 with SMTP id g60mr21193913yhf.90.1326773587622; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (71-208-70-183.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.208.70.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q40sm56212215anh.18.2012.01.16.20.13.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:13:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:13:03 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel Subject: emacs-20120116-r106877 Windows Binaries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:13:10 -0000 The Emacs Trunk Windows Binaries (bzr revno 106877) have been published in http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 gnutls-3.0.9 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 05:05:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn5uc-0006zS-FA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:05:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39314) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn5uW-0006xN-3X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:05:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn5uR-0006BS-7J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:05:00 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:50304) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn5uQ-0006BM-VH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:04:55 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so3597935wic.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:04:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/yBEih95gBy39Kjon8Qgv56VM0S5lWMkAKqIC+pft+E=; b=q4/9pdYlLZB070Z21fTdHvZ6vkw64r/86KsjcPF3pysViCbRfrY84uB0gKbJSlhmKs YBVJvUOqRXTPKpZo3742zUMoFkeY671wesXu5ksTH0TJPrXeB0aDOQ0uLzzgUtUDtuKs JneMMvqDgD0RU0KGRffVbLvfk57e1Cjuz5jy8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.19.138 with SMTP id f10mr33148154wie.3.1326794694321; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.25.140 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:04:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <2AB13C59-F3BE-45F7-8C24-C88AA9AC8929@swipnet.se> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:04:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: emacs user To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:05:04 -0000 On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 6:41 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: >> Other than running valgrind on temacs, load everything in and then >> print out reachable memory, I don't know how to check this. =A0It >> sounds as it isn't a leak as such, but something that is still >> referenced, but not needed. > > The `heap' command might give some help. =A0Perhaps one can compare > results of `heaps -addresses all ' between before and after a VM > invocation as explained in the manual page, and then use > `malloc_history' to show the stack trace. in addition to the heap output I emailed you earlier off-line, here is the gdb output from a crash that just occurred within a normal session using vm and auctex. Memory is 244Mb at this point (after killing all buffers), crash occurred when I did M-x garbage collect: Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory. Reason: 13 at address: 0x0000000000000000 0x00000001000fdad6 in mem_delete_fixup [inlined] () at /usr/local/emacs/trunk/src/alloc.c:3860 3860 if (w->right->color =3D=3D MEM_BLACK && w->left->color =3D=3D MEM_B= LACK) (gdb) (gdb) where #0 0x00000001000fdad6 in mem_delete_fixup [inlined] () at /usr/local/emacs/trunk/src/alloc.c:3860 #1 0x00000001000fdad6 in mem_delete (z=3D0x10ec72d60) at alloc.c:3797 #2 0x00000001000fdc70 in lisp_align_free (block=3D0x10ec72d60) at alloc.c:= 1142 #3 0x0000000100101fc2 in gc_sweep [inlined] () at /usr/local/emacs/trunk/src/alloc.c:5922 #4 0x0000000100101fc2 in Fgarbage_collect () at alloc.c:3797 #5 0x000000010011a287 in Ffuncall (nargs=3D4542901600, args=3D0x10011a448) at eval.c:2983 #6 0x0000000100116c99 in Fcall_interactively (function=3D140734799800160, record_flag=3D140734799800160, keys=3D140734799800160) at callint.c:852 #7 0x000000010011a2b3 in Ffuncall (nargs=3D1, args=3D0x10011a448) at eval.= c:2993 #8 0x000000010011d236 in call3 (fn=3D4, arg1=3D4309956080, arg2=3D4300590816, arg3=3D4536667392) at eval.c:2786 #9 0x00000001000a6265 in Fexecute_extended_command (prefixarg=3D140734799800432) at keyboard.c:10391 #10 0x000000010011a293 in Ffuncall (nargs=3D4320145466, args=3D0x10011a448) at eval.c:2986 #11 0x0000000100116c99 in Fcall_interactively (function=3D140734799800880, record_flag=3D140734799800880, keys=3D140734799800880) at callint.c:852 #12 0x000000010011a2b3 in Ffuncall (nargs=3D2, args=3D0x10011a448) at eval.= c:2993 #13 0x000000010011d236 in call3 (fn=3D4, arg1=3D4320213530, arg2=3D4320145514, arg3=3D4320145466) at eval.c:2786 #14 0x00000001000b3f75 in command_loop_1 () at keyboard.c:1571 #15 0x000000010011da63 in internal_condition_case (bfun=3D0x1000b3930 , handlers=3D4320201482, hfun=3D0x1000b4ec0 ) at eval.c:1499 #16 0x00000001000b390e in command_loop_2 (ignore=3D4320271674) at keyboard.= c:1159 #17 0x000000010011db68 in internal_catch (tag=3D4320271674, func=3D0x1000b38d0 , arg=3D4320271674) at eval.c:1256 #18 0x00000001000b5420 in command_loop [inlined] () at /usr/local/emacs/trunk/src/keyboard.c:1138 #19 0x00000001000b5420 in recursive_edit_1 () at keyboard.c:3797 #20 0x00000001000a523c in Frecursive_edit () at keyboard.c:822 #21 0x00000001000a1d7f in main (argc=3D25230234, argv=3D0x7fff5fbff0c0) at emacs.c:1715 Lisp Backtrace: "garbage-collect" (0x5fbfe658) "call-interactively" (0x5fbfe7f8) "execute-extended-command" (0x5fbfe928) "call-interactively" (0x5fbfeac8) From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 05:51:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn6dU-00064f-T0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:51:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36549) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6dP-00062V-Ho for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:51:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6dJ-00069b-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:51:23 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:56007) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6dJ-00069D-1g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:51:17 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84B0C055D; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:51:12 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:51:12 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs user Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: railwaycat@gmail.com, Jan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:51:27 -0000 >>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:38 +0900, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu said: >> This version seems to have the same memory problem (not returning >> memory to the OS) as the regular gnu emacs on OS X. Aquamacs seems >> not to have this issue...(?) > My guess is that Aquamacs is in 32-bit and the others are in 64-bit. I browsed the source code of the malloc library on Mac OS X 10.7.2, and found that actually this difference of 32-bit vs. 64-bit affects the behavior of caching. For machines equipped with >= 1GB RAM, allocation for size >= 128kB is handled by the "large" version of malloc/free etc. And some large allocations are cached by the malloc library. For 64-bit executables, up to 16 cache entries and each entry is up to 128MB. For 32-bit executables, up to 8 cache entries and each entry is up to 4MB. For both cases, the total cache size is up to 0.1% of RAM. So if you kill 3 buffers each of which occupies 5MB in size on a 16GB RAM machine, then 15MB memory is kept as cache by the malloc library for the 64-bit case even after garbage collection, while it is returned to the system for the 32-bit case. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 05:58:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn6ka-0000B7-T1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:58:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36916) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6kU-00006A-D8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:58:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6kL-0007Yz-0o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:58:42 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:55997) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn6kK-0007YU-Fa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:58:32 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E46C055D; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:58:28 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:58:28 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs user Subject: Re: Memory again In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <2AB13C59-F3BE-45F7-8C24-C88AA9AC8929@swipnet.se> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: Jan =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:58:46 -0000 >>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:04:54 +0200, emacs user said: > in addition to the heap output I emailed you earlier off-line, here > is the gdb output from a crash that just occurred within a normal > session using vm and auctex. Memory is 244Mb at this point (after > killing all buffers), crash occurred when I did M-x garbage collect: Is this also reproducible on other builds such as tty-only or X11? YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 08:14:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rn8rk-00012V-MY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:14:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55887) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn8ri-00012O-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:14:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn8rc-0007Ac-8z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:14:18 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:48106) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn8rc-0007A8-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:14:12 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so3780534wic.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:14:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OP48hleACasyG4jxQ7oV1orYL8/WpKLzAxvXz1acvNU=; b=Znrda9YnVOnxe/VVvkFKzwX5z0RR0NQcqB9D1zJLNthlrYOGF7sXrvZc7WSgU6os3n ni+TDedLZGB7wo0Af69TqXe8KEWlqpjWTKFU6+DMmgdCJHYixefTSxaUzFbhgb4A/DD9 gFQ9hgWYB1IR6SuxZBntPyLYDEYiiwvvwCrR4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.106.202 with SMTP id gw10mr28348110wib.3.1326806050681; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.25.140 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:14:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <2AB13C59-F3BE-45F7-8C24-C88AA9AC8929@swipnet.se> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:14:10 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again From: emacs user To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:14:19 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:58 PM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > Is this also reproducible on other builds such as tty-only or X11? if I run the same executable using -nw, it just wont crash. I can bring it to a size of over 1Gb with no buffers at all; with buffers, I could bring it to a size of 2.5Gb. at that point I can use vm and other packages that often crash emacs, and it's stable and happy apart from the increasing memory. upon killing buffers, the size does go down from 2.5Gb to 1Gb, for example, but the minimum memory size used does consistently increase with usage. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 12:19:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnChM-0007mn-Rr for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:19:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59271) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnB8w-000661-7v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:40:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnB8m-0001jX-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:40:14 -0500 Received: from msa104.auone-net.jp ([61.117.18.164]:51366) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnB8g-0001gI-Ax; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:39:58 -0500 Received: from GUNGNIR.med.osaka-cu.ac.jp (180-144-122-160f1.nar1.eonet.ne.jp [180.144.122.160]) by msa104.auone-net.jp (au one net msa) with ESMTP id 1EAA02C037; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:39:47 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:39:43 +0900 From: Kazuhiro Ito To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 In-Reply-To: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/24.0.92 (i386-mingw-nt6.1.7601) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 61.117.18.164 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:19:51 -0500 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:40:19 -0000 At Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:05:32 +0800, Chong Yidong wrote: > > Emacs pretest 23.0.90 is now available for download via FTP, at the > following location: > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.3.90.tar.gz > > This is a pretest for a planned Emacs 23.4 release, which will fix the > security flaw in EDE reported on emacs-devel a few days ago. It also > fixes many other bugs in Emacs 23.3, but contains no new features. Please merge fixes for Bug#8619, Bug#8738, Bug#9318 and Bug#9389 from trunk. -- Kazuhiro Ito From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 19:39:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnJYg-00065e-Cq for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:39:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnJYd-00064m-78 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:39:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnJYb-0000bg-80 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:39:19 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:56656) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnJYb-0000bc-3H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:39:17 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so4295086iad.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=gV9IiAKb2fbjExr8dWzeeLd4IgU8iZLdO8kRhtMRTC8=; b=iNWihbSeFUlNykKn1eZDuLdzjzALIm8GpWerNJ1RZ16QZInte9vskH/+NZtqer1lTW yeuQgZfV0Ep9863d1kAxOzgBOef7kJi7FUxAj+XZqqtnUlIPODxkj0CfDCiFbdqcsBUT l5bT759rfjQpFe4IpOxweoaWblpQ74LEq9qZ4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.182.130 with SMTP id ee2mr19700804igc.30.1326847155905; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.138 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:39:15 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Memory Leak was: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 8 messages From: "T.V. Raman" To: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:39:20 -0000 Stephane, Unfortunately, Emacspeak is what talks to me, so it's well-nigh impossible for me to debug emacs with GDB. But here are a few additional bits of info that might help: RSS etc that I reported were from proced in emacs --- also, it's hard to get any useful info out snce the workstation crashes or becomes unusable fairly rapidly. I'm attaching two other bits of information that may be useful: The binary src/emacs is approx 13mb big on my laptop and home machines where I dont see the leak -- 7mb after stripping. Constrast this with the numbers I see on the machine where I do see the leak -- 19mb before stripping, 12mb+ after stripping. I'll also attach the output of ldd on the offending machine in case that sheds any light. ls -l src/emacs -rwxr-x--- 3 raman eng 19612869 2012-01-06 15:37 src/emacs* 16:34:49 retriever emacs $ strip src/emacs 16:34:56 retriever emacs $ !ls ls -l src/emacs -rwxr-x--- 3 raman eng 12707840 2012-01-17 16:34 src/emacs* 16:35:01 retriever emacs $ ldd src/emacs linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x00007fff4bf8b000) libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef3ae6000) libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef3839000) libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef3617000) libgio-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgio-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef3363000) libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef3139000) libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef2f1c000) libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x00007f2ef2c99000) libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef2a8c000) libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2 (0x00007f2ef2808000) libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef25be000) libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x00007f2ef2338000) libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x00007f2ef2102000) libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef1eba000) libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef1cb6000) libgthread-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef1ab0000) librt.so.1 => /lib/librt.so.1 (0x00007f2ef18a8000) libglib-2.0.so.0 => /lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f2ef15ca000) libSM.so.6 => /usr/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x00007f2ef13c0000) libICE.so.6 => /usr/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x00007f2ef11a5000) libtiff.so.4 => /usr/lib/libtiff.so.4 (0x00007f2ef0f43000) libjpeg.so.62 => /usr/lib/libjpeg.so.62 (0x00007f2ef0d1e000) libpng12.so.0 => /lib/libpng12.so.0 (0x00007f2ef0af7000) libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x00007f2ef08e0000) libgif.so.4 => /usr/lib/libgif.so.4 (0x00007f2ef06d6000) libXpm.so.4 => /usr/lib/libXpm.so.4 (0x00007f2ef04c5000) libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x00007f2ef018f000) libXrender.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x00007f2eeff84000) libXft.so.2 => /usr/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x00007f2eefd6f000) libasound.so.2 => /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 (0x00007f2eefa8e000) librsvg-2.so.2 => /usr/lib/librsvg-2.so.2 (0x00007f2eef856000) libdbus-1.so.3 => /lib/libdbus-1.so.3 (0x00007f2eef617000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f2eef3fa000) libxml2.so.2 => /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2 (0x00007f2eef0a9000) libgpm.so.2 => /usr/lib/libgpm.so.2 (0x00007f2eeeea2000) libncurses.so.5 => /lib/libncurses.so.5 (0x00007f2eeec5f000) libgconf-2.so.4 => /usr/lib/libgconf-2.so.4 (0x00007f2eeea21000) libselinux.so.1 => /lib/libselinux.so.1 (0x00007f2eee803000) libotf.so.0 => /usr/lib/libotf.so.0 (0x00007f2eee5ef000) libm17n-flt.so.0 => /usr/lib/libm17n-flt.so.0 (0x00007f2eee3e4000) libm17n-core.so.0 => /usr/lib/libm17n-core.so.0 (0x00007f2eee1b7000) libgnutls.so.26 => /usr/local/lib/libgnutls.so.26 (0x00007f2eedf0b000) libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x00007f2eedb87000) libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x00007f2eed975000) libXinerama.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1 (0x00007f2eed772000) libXi.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x00007f2eed561000) libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x00007f2eed358000) libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x00007f2eed14e000) libXcomposite.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcomposite.so.1 (0x00007f2eecf4a000) libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXdamage.so.1 (0x00007f2eecd47000) libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3 (0x00007f2eecb41000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f2eec93c000) libpcre.so.3 => /lib/libpcre.so.3 (0x00007f2eec70e000) libresolv.so.2 => /lib/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007f2eec4f4000) libpixman-1.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpixman-1.so.0 (0x00007f2eec29b000) libdirectfb-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libdirectfb-1.2.so.0 (0x00007f2eec017000) libfusion-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libfusion-1.2.so.0 (0x00007f2eebe0d000) libdirect-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libdirect-1.2.so.0 (0x00007f2eebbf4000) libxcb-render-util.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render-util.so.0 (0x00007f2eeb9ef000) libxcb-render.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render.so.0 (0x00007f2eeb7e6000) libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/libxcb.so.1 (0x00007f2eeb5ca000) libexpat.so.1 => /lib/libexpat.so.1 (0x00007f2eeb3a0000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f2ef412a000) libuuid.so.1 => /lib/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f2eeb19b000) libgsf-1.so.114 => /usr/lib/libgsf-1.so.114 (0x00007f2eeaf5b000) libcroco-0.6.so.3 => /usr/lib/libcroco-0.6.so.3 (0x00007f2eead22000) libORBit-2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libORBit-2.so.0 (0x00007f2eeaab3000) libdbus-glib-1.so.2 => /usr/lib/libdbus-glib-1.so.2 (0x00007f2eea891000) libthai.so.0 => /usr/lib/libthai.so.0 (0x00007f2eea688000) libtasn1.so.3 => /usr/lib/libtasn1.so.3 (0x00007f2eea476000) libgcrypt.so.11 => /lib/libgcrypt.so.11 (0x00007f2eea1fe000) libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f2ee9ffa000) libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 (0x00007f2ee9df5000) libXdmcp.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXdmcp.so.6 (0x00007f2ee9bef000) libbz2.so.1.0 => /lib/libbz2.so.1.0 (0x00007f2ee99dd000) libdatrie.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdatrie.so.1 (0x00007f2ee97d7000) 16:35:09 retriever emacs $ On 1/8/12, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Before starting Emacs: `free' shows 2gb in use. > > FWIW, "free" is not a very good tool to track the memory use of > a specific process. Better check the VSZ and RSS of the process itself > (and note that RSS can stay stable even in the presence of a leak, > so VSZ is important). > >> Start Emacs 24 -- with just emacspeak loaded -- no immediate >> signs of a leak -- `free' shows abut 6gb in use -- which does >> seem a lot. > > What is Emacs's RSS and/or VSZ at startup? > >> M-x shell in that emacs >> and wait for a couple of minutes. > >> Running `free' on a separate terminal shows that all 12GB of >> memory in use -- emacs RSS is at 10GB. > >> If you dont kill the runnning emacs-24 at that point, it brings >> the workstation to its knees and the machine stops responding and >> needs to be rebooted. > > So you're saying that "emacs -Q" plus emacspeak plus "M-x shell" results > on this machine in a process hat keeps growing even if you leave > it alone? > Could you run it under GDB (from the `emacs/src' directory) and > interrupt the process (with C-z) every once in a while to try and see > what it's doing? > > > Stefan > From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 20:30:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnKMC-0003Up-OF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:30:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60490) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnKMA-0003Uf-JU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:30:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnKM8-0005H4-IC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:30:30 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:55617) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnKM8-0005EG-1w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:30:28 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B7AC055D; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:30:24 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:30:24 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs user Subject: Re: Memory again In-Reply-To: References: <71677AF5-0EE7-426E-B8FA-C2782B3CC36C@swipnet.se> <2AB13C59-F3BE-45F7-8C24-C88AA9AC8929@swipnet.se> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:30:31 -0000 >>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:14:10 +0200, emacs user said: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:58 PM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: >> Is this also reproducible on other builds such as tty-only or X11? > if I run the same executable using -nw, it just wont crash. I can > bring it to a size of over 1Gb with no buffers at all; with buffers, > I could bring it to a size of 2.5Gb. at that point I can use vm and > other packages that often crash emacs, and it's stable and happy > apart from the increasing memory. This would indicate increase in RSS does not necessarily mean unstableness you originally observed with repetitive invocations of VM. It would be worth trying the X11 build to see its behavior is much like the NS port with graphical frame case (crash in GC?) or tty case (stable). > upon killing buffers, the size does go down from 2.5Gb to 1Gb, for > example, but the minimum memory size used does consistently increase > with usage. Do you mean RSS continues to increase on each invocation of VM? What do the outputs of the `heap' command look like before and after an invocation of VM at this stage? If you find increase in malloced memory in these outputs, then can you identify the stack traces for some major differences using `malloc_history'? YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 17 23:33:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnNDG-0001IL-Pt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:33:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35075) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnNDE-0001Fm-04 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:33:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnNDC-00038J-Nh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:33:27 -0500 Received: from relmlor2.renesas.com ([210.160.252.172]:56008) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnNDC-000384-C4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:33:26 -0500 Received: from relmlir3.idc.renesas.com ([10.200.68.153]) by relmlor2.idc.renesas.com ( SJSMS) with ESMTP id <0LXZ002CP8N11400@relmlor2.idc.renesas.com> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from relmlac1.idc.renesas.com ([10.200.69.21]) by relmlir3.idc.renesas.com ( SJSMS) with ESMTP id <0LXZ00F758N0RH20@relmlir3.idc.renesas.com> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:01 +0900 (JST) Received: by relmlac1.idc.renesas.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D4CD580177; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from relmlac1.idc.renesas.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relmlac1.idc.renesas.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B6180195; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from relmlii2.idc.renesas.com [10.200.68.66] by relmlac1.idc.renesas.com with ESMTP id PAE07935; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:00 +0900 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,527,1320591600"; d="scan'208";a="63937841" Received: from unknown (HELO relay51.aps.necel.com) ([10.29.19.60]) by relmlii2.idc.renesas.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:33:00 +0900 Received: from dhlpc061 (dhlpc061.dev.necel.com [10.114.97.40]) by relay51.aps.necel.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I4WxCK022924; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:32:59 +0900 (JST) Received: by dhlpc061 (Postfix, from userid 31295) id B002952E738; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:32:58 +0900 (JST) From: Miles Bader To: immerrr again Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors References: System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Blat: Foop Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:32:57 +0900 In-reply-to: Message-id: Lines: 30 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (1203?) X-Received-From: 210.160.252.172 Cc: Lua mailing list , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:33:29 -0000 immerrr again writes: > As some of you might know, lua-mode, Emacs major mode for editing Lua, is > undergoing integration to Emacs mainline. Hopefully lua-mode's bogus handling of symbols vs. words will finally be fixed as a result..... [lua-mode redefines "_" as a word-component; it shouldn't, as it really messes with users' instincts, and makes Emacs commands less useful. Historically this was often done by language-modes as an simple (though misguided) expedient to allow them to safely use "\<" and \>" in regexps matching keywords, but nowadays they shouldn't do that, they should leave "_" alone and use "\_<" and "\_>" instead.] A few years ago (one of the previous times an attempt was being made to include lua-mode), of the lua-mode authors mentioned he was of the opinion that the existing lua-mode was such a huge hack that it should just be rewritten from scratch anyway (and said he planned to, but never seemed to get the time). If author-archeology proves sufficiently painful, maybe that would indeed be the more expedient option (especially as there are more nice tools in emacs for writing modes these days, e.g., Stefan's parser-thingy)! -Miles -- Custard, n. A vile concoction produced by a malevolent conspiracy of the hen, the cow, and the cook. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 01:58:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnPTs-0005Mu-7d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:58:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53125) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnPTq-0005Mo-51 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:58:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnPTo-0006tg-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:58:46 -0500 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.187]:50805) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnPTo-0006tc-BV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:58:44 -0500 Received: from [192.168.178.27] (brln-4d0c2394.pool.mediaWays.net [77.12.35.148]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Lc873-1SUgB52Dxt-00jVj1; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:58:42 +0100 Message-ID: <4F166DA1.8040806@online.de> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:58:41 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111101 SUSE/3.1.16 Thunderbird/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Multiple regions References: <87wr8sj85b.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:Wvdrsxsm2MEankILDQWPdyv8EAef5A8zosBMslkAp0j mtOY4Bw8yLZQAeXFKAN5hRY9+zsCKHvlzhX+/C/p+0S/30o0BZ ps8VzygXgifryk+bV551P3sSWosuHbJOJY8ZoE8PPNymeU0sSB M/EsE5chM4bEOi33IdgzJA8t32ZkWcrg0rr7Pb5rcYlCd95Gh8 uIpKSA5osil9bRY4vprcQk2VUAw7chV2ZkjGONZrN2RQ5+dadm SU+d6wYdoUIUVNZ79MeOHHHNIIwc8Wc4hCB+bHfD68Xx9WImng pzzjds7ANUi0DeFkDTqcby3BYepmZSMTfqpfQPMLKxVmlShJ48 0RfL3SC17qxMvxUKDiwk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 212.227.126.187 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:58:47 -0000 Am 16.01.2012 15:32, schrieb Stefan Monnier: >> I found this library to be quite useful: >> http://www2.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~lmitche4/multi-region.el >> Is there any plan to implement multiple regions natively? > > Plans, no. But I think it would be good to do it. This said, I think > such an implementation would first want to move call-interactively to > Elisp code. And it will need to do a delicate redesign of the region code. > > > Stefan > > Hi Stefan, hopefully understanding "delicate" in sense of simplify, stripping-down. Cheers, Andreas From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 04:04:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnRRR-00084a-Bi for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:04:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnRRK-00083O-Gp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:04:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnRRJ-0001zF-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:04:18 -0500 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.8]:60814) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnRRJ-0001xU-7B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:04:17 -0500 Received: from [192.168.178.27] (brln-4d0c2394.pool.mediaWays.net [77.12.35.148]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LxMeg-1SkGEW3xTW-0179n3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:04:15 +0100 Message-ID: <4F168B0C.9020602@online.de> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:04:12 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111101 SUSE/3.1.16 Thunderbird/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: completion--capf-wrapper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:71Y4TcyHBXWzMherf+o7TJ5ASHICFPdhqiHBvNABC80 VhH+2Xt/0w4abt8sP+TQdqYfL+fV7UbelTGfOjy1uv15AJMu0X EUOGlKfX0e2bkiP094SlkGPW8sPSDY4Yit2+F590EPbnsPMuSR q3M1RqKGQoK2qP+HYwZ3E+bed9jiUNBif3ZWJiTftmNjGenhS/ O1VL3onbI/0fF18UlFTRVfWJu7kRkq5FWSNmqMXF+EffJ1y5ve c2B+etOiX0yL27n1LIRnzl2/U3uTKgcEAx1gu7S4pxvdWMngz+ 6hBKKFQwb/fQg5WqaFLqFkC4kKS2FM850BRywU36InkSGiV/Wy JZ3hQff5yOzj4B8lLPtk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:04:24 -0000 Hi Stefan, see completion-code has been complicating considerably since Emacs23 as for the bugs addressed in `completion--capf-wrapper' comment ;; FIXME: The safe/misbehave handling assumes that a given function will ;; always return the same kind of data, but this breaks down with functions ;; like comint-completion-at-point or mh-letter-completion-at-point, which ;; could be sometimes safe and sometimes misbehaving (and sometimes neither). these bugs existed already in Emacs23 `completion-at-point' AFAIU there is a simple solution checking for types instead of `completion--capf-wrapper' So far my thoughts, Cheers, Andreas From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 10:06:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnX5Z-0001fm-IS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58207) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5S-0001eM-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5M-00041B-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59229) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5M-000417-6x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:00 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:55764 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5K-0003oo-QN; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:05:59 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Kazuhiro Ito Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:50 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> (Kazuhiro Ito's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:39:43 +0900") Message-ID: <874nvtgiep.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:06:11 -0000 Kazuhiro Ito writes: > Please merge fixes for Bug#8619, Bug#8738, Bug#9318 and Bug#9389 from > trunk. Ah, I didn't realize those fixes were committed to the trunk rather than the branch. But I think they will have to wait for Emacs 24.1. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 10:06:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnX60-0001yo-Oh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58408) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5x-0001yZ-Ss for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5w-00048l-0e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59258) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5v-00048h-VV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:35 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:55769 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnX5v-0003rO-58; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:06:35 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Ken Brown Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <4F135D26.8050103@cornell.edu> <4F14546D.4050101@cornell.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:06:28 +0800 In-Reply-To: <4F14546D.4050101@cornell.edu> (Ken Brown's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:46:37 -0500") Message-ID: <87zkdlf3t7.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:06:38 -0000 Ken Brown writes: >> - for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->next) >> + for (b = all_buffers; b; b = b->header.next.buffer) >> if (b->text->beg == NULL) >> enlarge_buffer_text (b, 0); >> } > > Just to clarify this, the change you missed is revno 104021.1.3 on the > trunk: Committed, thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 10:12:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnXBe-0004g4-JF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:12:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56423) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnXBV-0004fb-Pc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:12:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnXBQ-0005Fc-P0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:12:21 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:33672) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnXBQ-0005FG-K7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:12:16 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Jan 2012 15:12:12 -0000 Received: from 77.119.215.213.wireless.dyn.drei.com (EHLO localhost) [77.119.215.213] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 18 Jan 2012 16:12:12 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/Bebcim0LBYWkzDaivk/bHeyODZhDEiPz9REwvsl x5DkbrZJ0/3qIA Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:12:04 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:12:29 -0000 I've done a quick update of TUTORIAL.de -- there are certainly issues which can be improved, but I'm short of time, unfortunately. It's revno 106888. Werner From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 13:09:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnZx1-0005H9-QE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:09:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50852) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnZwy-0005Ee-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:09:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnZww-00066F-NX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:09:32 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:34813) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnZww-000669-G3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:09:30 -0500 Received: by werl4 with SMTP id l4so3292151wer.0 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=xQfgjWSGeoQceAaghXBHSo046rbJsZIsRV8Sx47/BLg=; b=w+3k0Xmx6MBNV42v+lEYpJi+/Q++ZqHiR0M7DhOlAKyeoXXToMhZb9QQfPkinPap4l fVw0gr9wc3s2HGpbzsiOY5211NrePFxxJlMD0Gw62/If5KKjnejuxqaZwA5T648BkSj/ f64XFWuKRkCsuR4kmly1+QRrd9+mZVOZ7Rad0= Received: by 10.216.138.73 with SMTP id z51mr9530019wei.55.1326910169430; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Apollo.jerryland.fr (pierre.csie.fr. [212.51.164.178]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q7sm23847684wix.5.2012.01.18.10.09.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:09:28 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my_Compostella?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:44 +0100 Message-ID: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:09:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, The attached patch provides the desktop frame and windows configuration save&restore feature : the desktop module saves all the frame and their respective windows configuration. On the next Emacs session, after having restored all the buffers, the desktop module will then restore all the frame with their window configuration. This patch probably fits the following TODO item: ** Make desktop.el save the "frame configuration" of Emacs (in some useful sense). I have tried to make this feature as customizable as possible: - This feature is disabled by default with the customizable `desktop-save-frames' in order to keep the current behavior for users whose could not want this. - The `desktop-save-selected-frame-only' force the frame and window configuration of the current frame only. - The saved frame parameters is customizable through `desktop-frame-parameters-to-save'. - The saved window properties is customizable through `desktop-window-properties-to-save'. First, I was trying to implement this feature in one of my own Emacs module but talking with other Emacs users around me I figured out that, first, this feature is probably expected, and second, it should be provided by the desktop package. I've tried to write the best code I could but it's my first "important" patch to this project and I will be happy to take all your remark into account ;) Best regards, J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-desktop.el-Add-frames-and-windows-configuration-save.patch Content-Description: 0001-desktop.el-Add-frames-and-windows-configuration-save.patch >From cd4bb24cc4d367af8c0972b1dddbefec04ab18d8 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jeremy Compostella Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:07:37 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore When desktop-save-frames is not nil (set to nil by default), the desktop-save functionn saves all the frame and their window configuration. All the frames will be automatically restored on the next Emacs session. When desktop-save-selected-frame-only is not nil only the current frame is saved and restored. Signed-off-by: Jeremy Compostella --- lisp/desktop.el | 151 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- 1 files changed, 149 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/desktop.el b/lisp/desktop.el index 2f79cc0..f7be80f 100644 --- a/lisp/desktop.el +++ b/lisp/desktop.el @@ -32,6 +32,7 @@ ;; - the mark & mark-active ;; - buffer-read-only ;; - some local variables +;; - the frames and their associated window configuration ;; To use this, use customize to turn on desktop-save-mode or add the ;; following line somewhere in your .emacs file: @@ -132,7 +133,7 @@ ;;; Code: -(defvar desktop-file-version "206" +(defvar desktop-file-version "207" "Version number of desktop file format. Written into the desktop file and used at desktop read to provide backward compatibility.") @@ -390,6 +391,52 @@ See `desktop-restore-eager'." :group 'desktop :version "22.1") +(defcustom desktop-save-frames nil + "If non-nil, offer to save and restore frames." + :type 'boolean + :group 'desktop + :version "24.1") + +(defcustom desktop-save-selected-frame-only nil + "If non-nil and `desktop-save-frames' non-nil, only the +current frame will be saved." + :type 'boolean + :group 'desktop + :version "24.1") + +(defcustom desktop-frame-parameters-to-save + '(name + top + left + width + height + modeline + fullscreen + minibuffer + horizontal-scroll-bars + font-parameter + font + font-backend) + "List of parameter to save for each frame." + :type '(repeat symbol) + :group 'desktop) + +(defcustom desktop-window-properties-to-save + '((set-window-start . window-start) + (set-window-point . window-point) + (set-window-dedicated-p . window-dedicated-p) + (set-window-margins . (lambda (w) `(,(car (window-margins w)) + ,(cdr (window-margins w))))) + (set-window-hscroll . window-hscroll) + (set-window-scroll-bars . (lambda (w) (let ((scroll (window-scroll-bars w))) + (cons (car scroll) (cddr scroll))))) + (set-window-fringes . window-fringes)) + "Associative list of window properties to save. Each property +is a cons cell of two functions \"restore\" and \"save\". The +\"restore\" function takes a window object and the returned value +of the \"save\" function. The \"save\" function takes a window object +as argument.") + ;;;###autoload (defvar desktop-save-buffer nil "When non-nil, save buffer status in desktop file. @@ -854,6 +901,92 @@ DIRNAME must be the directory in which the desktop file will be saved." ((eq desktop-file-name-format 'local) (file-relative-name filename dirname)) (t (expand-file-name filename)))) +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +;; Frame and window configuration +(defun desktop-window-info (window current-window) + "Return a list containing the WINDOW buffer-name, the WINDOW egdes, a +boolean to true when WINDOW is the CURRENT-WINDOW and the WINDOW +properties list as described by `desktop-window-properties-to-save'." + (let ((get-prop (lambda (fun) + (let ((prop (funcall fun window))) + (if (consp prop) prop (list prop)))))) + (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) + (list (buffer-name) + (window-edges window) + (eq window current-window) + (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons (car x) (funcall get-prop (cdr x)))) + desktop-window-properties-to-save))))) + +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +(defun desktop-window-tree (frame) + "Return the window tree of frame FRAME replacing the window +objects by their save informations as returned by `desktop-window-info'" + (let* ((current-window (with-selected-frame frame (selected-window))) + (inner '(lambda (wtree) + (if (windowp wtree) + (desktop-window-info wtree current-window) + (setcdr (cdr wtree) (list (mapcar inner (cddr wtree)))) + wtree)))) + (funcall inner (car (window-tree frame))))) + +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +(defun desktop-frame-parameters (frame) + "Return the FRAME parameters associative list according to +`desktop-frame-parameters-to-save'." + (mapcar (lambda (param) + (cons param (let ((value (frame-parameter frame param))) + (if (windowp value) t value)))) + desktop-frame-parameters-to-save)) + +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +(defun desktop-restore-window (window-info) + "Restore the selected window properties from +WINDOW-INFO. WINDOW-INFO is a list as returned by +`desktop-window-info'." + (let* ((buf (get-buffer (car window-info))) + (window (selected-window)) + (current-window (when (nth 2 window-info) window))) + (when buf + (switch-to-buffer buf) + (dolist (elm (nth 3 window-info)) + (apply (car elm) (cons window (cdr elm))))) + (other-window 1) + current-window)) + +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +(defun desktop-restore-window-tree (window-tree) + "Restore the selected frame window tree from +WINDOW-TREE. WINDOW-TREE is a window tree as returned by +`desktop-window-tree'." + (let ((current-window nil)) + (if (stringp (car window-tree)) + (desktop-restore-window window-tree) + (let* ((direction (car window-tree)) + (subtree-list (car (cddr window-tree))) + (last-window (car (last subtree-list)))) + (dolist (subtree subtree-list) + (unless (eq last-window subtree) + (let* ((edges (nth 1 subtree)) + (size (if direction + (- (nth 3 edges) (nth 1 edges)) + (- (nth 2 edges) (nth 0 edges))))) + (split-window nil size (not direction)))) + (let ((window (desktop-restore-window-tree subtree))) + (when window (setq current-window window)))) + current-window)))) + +;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- +(defun desktop-restore-frame (use-current-frame frame-params window-tree) + "Restore a frame. If USE-CURRENT-FRAME is true, it uses the +selected frame otherwise it creates a new one. FRAME-PARAMS is a +frame parameters associative list as returned by +`desktop-frame-parameters' and WINDOW-TREE is a window tree as +returned by `desktop-window-tree'." + (when use-current-frame + (modify-frame-parameters (selected-frame) frame-params)) + (with-selected-frame (or (and use-current-frame (selected-frame)) + (make-frame frame-params)) + (select-window (desktop-restore-window-tree window-tree)))) ;; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;;###autoload @@ -920,6 +1053,17 @@ See also `desktop-base-file-name'." (insert "\n " (desktop-value-to-string e))) (insert ")\n\n")))) + (when (and desktop-save-frames (window-system)) + (insert "\n;; Frame and window configuration section:\n") + (let ((frames-to-save (if desktop-save-selected-frame-only + `(,(selected-frame)) + (frame-list)))) + (dolist (frame frames-to-save) + (insert (format "\n(desktop-restore-frame %s '%S '%S)\n" + (eq (selected-frame) frame) + (desktop-frame-parameters frame) + (desktop-window-tree frame)))))) + (setq default-directory desktop-dirname) (let ((coding-system-for-write 'emacs-mule)) (write-region (point-min) (point-max) (desktop-full-file-name) nil 'nomessage)) @@ -1008,7 +1152,10 @@ Using it may cause conflicts. Use it anyway? " owner))))) ;; move them here. (mapc 'bury-buffer (nreverse (cdr (memq desktop-first-buffer (nreverse (buffer-list)))))) - (switch-to-buffer (car (buffer-list))) + ;; If frames are saved/restored the current buffer is + ;; already restored + (unless desktop-save-frames + (switch-to-buffer (car (buffer-list)))) (run-hooks 'desktop-delay-hook) (setq desktop-delay-hook nil) (run-hooks 'desktop-after-read-hook) -- 1.7.2.5 --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 14:34:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnbHM-0004yU-O4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:34:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43792) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnbHJ-0004vm-Eq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:34:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnbHI-0005mz-Ca for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:34:37 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:61470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnbHI-0005mn-24 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:34:36 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0IJYWho016796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:34:33 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0IJYWLY015915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:34:32 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0IJYV9d021678; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:34:32 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:34:31 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'J=E9r=E9my_Compostella'?=" , References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Subject: RE: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:34:30 -0800 Message-ID: <080CF9F8ACE94C26B1109368A5C00F17@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Thread-Index: AczWDFwZJk1fMNCXT5eDJ9cxsM+vbAAC4nRA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F171ECA.0007,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:34:38 -0000 Haven't tried it, but it sounds good. Lots of people have been looking for something like this. BTW, why is the `defgroup' for group `desktop' in group `frames'? Until & unless Jeremy's enhancement is added, `desktop.el' has _nothing_ (AFAICT) to do with frames. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 16:20:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rncvh-0005KX-Iy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42387) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rncvb-0005KQ-Jd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rncva-0006Nn-O0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:19 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:42852) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rncva-0006Nh-Lc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:18 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EAHY2F09MCqvJ/2dsb2JhbABErEiBAYEGgXIBAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIDbkhiWoCAQEIAgwRAwkBAQYBBR4KBAECAQECAwECAQEBAQKCeAEGAgMHAQQBAQEBhA0EiDuaa4RU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,531,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157489451" Received: from 76-10-171-201.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.171.201]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 18 Jan 2012 16:20:17 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id DE2E75908F; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:16 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella Subject: Re: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore Message-ID: References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9my?= Compostella"'s message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:44 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:20:23 -0000 > The attached patch provides the desktop frame and windows configuration > save&restore feature : the desktop module saves all the frame and their Thanks. Since we're in feature freeze, this will have to wait. In the mean time, you may want to check the new window-state-get and window-state-put functions which should provide you with a form of window configuration which you can directly print&read, hence simplifying your code. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 16:33:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnd87-0007SZ-UU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:33:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60096) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnd86-0007SS-3r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:33:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnd84-0007rY-TQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:33:14 -0500 Received: from fmmailgate01.web.de ([217.72.192.221]:38079) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnd84-0007rM-MG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:33:12 -0500 Received: from moweb002.kundenserver.de (moweb002.kundenserver.de [172.19.20.108]) by fmmailgate01.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971CE1A90C5B7 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:33:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from snow ([89.204.155.13]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0LsQ9o-1Spaaj0Hm4-012LXL; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:33:11 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Emacs Development Subject: face vs. mouse-face text property Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:34:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:zr3gJqGk7R2JonNu85m33gwsxKBJHmcvSNZLFNDSsOD hyHxVQGxpWaoPGv0PnklkSFtRRPYrfpKsSlVGd9U7aOJID5jSO gUhpOukbUxsIPgFB/veSQsnFRtJebM14f3hZ9S0ogsqcKnbtd9 7DPLQpExDZFxpSaeFEunIU8kgai5zztAHCksMy+uGhP/1A69Rm sdEW6DTFTxTFO8kdEm0t0eCQcRSFSZE9/+H8TmwTJw= Sender: Michael_Heerdegen@web.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-Received-From: 217.72.192.221 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, michael_heerdegen@web.de List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:33:15 -0000 Hello, I recognized that the area highlighted when using a mouse-face is different from that when using the face text property when the propertized string includes newlines. For example, try that: (with-current-buffer (generate-new-buffer "test") (pop-to-buffer (current-buffer)) (let ((o1 (make-overlay (point) (progn (insert "\n\n") (point))))) (overlay-put o1 'face 'highlight)) (insert "\n--\n") (let ((o2 (make-overlay (point) (progn (insert "\n\n") (point))))) (overlay-put o2 'mouse-face 'highlight))) While the first overlay is visible, you see nothing at all when you move the mouse over the second overlay. If you try this: (with-current-buffer (generate-new-buffer "test") (pop-to-buffer (current-buffer)) (let ((o1 (make-overlay (point) (progn (insert "\ntext\n") (point))))) (overlay-put o1 'face 'highlight)) (insert "\n--\n") (let ((o2 (make-overlay (point) (progn (insert "\ntext\n") (point))))) (overlay-put o2 'mouse-face 'highlight))) the first newline in the second overlay gets highlighted when you move the mouse over it, but not the second newline char. My question is: is this a bug, or intended behavior? If it is intended, why, and is there a way to get the mouse highlighting nevertheless work or to override the default behavior? In my scenario, it is important that the mouse-face works also for strings consisting of newlines, to indicate that it's clickable text. Thanks, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 17:12:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RndkI-00058x-R0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35645) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RndkG-00057e-4R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RndkE-000684-Ra for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:40 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:45575 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RndkE-00067y-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:38 -0500 Received: (qmail 85435 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Jan 2012 22:12:36 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95574F7.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.116.247]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:12:34 +0100 Received: (qmail 2756 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Jan 2012 22:12:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:12:47 +0000 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Speed up for CC Mode Message-ID: <20120118221247.GA2717@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:12:41 -0000 Hi, Emacs. My last CC Mode commit should finally solve the sluggishness (and occasional hanging) that arrived together with several enhancements over the last year or two. In particular, long regions without semicolons or braces suffered delays in font locking. These were, e.g., long comments, long enum declarations, long brace initialisers and long sequences of macro invocations (without ;). Please test this. Please test it especially if you use languages such as C++ or Java. ;-) Thanks. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 17:30:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rne1t-0007Ku-AQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:30:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59651) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rne1q-0007Ko-Gk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:30:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rne1o-0000al-90 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:30:50 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:49090) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rne1o-0000aQ-3P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:30:48 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so1669113lag.0 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yiAikdsbQ9KHWWqEOt44vSZhChbP0T6mU0WtBk7cGEQ=; b=JahEpHbqBMhX0pcY2glw34XoMIgbg14vs0TTo/xX3tXVlfaYzXmE/dY/ZOKYqArNEs AZ7IchvtbqmLuQCR21EqGKtviOc4t1LWRVZwi9inPktYEyNYG2dXL44Mb6u5brq3hv7C ztP5njnhzVGg8FKLtDYkGQcBd462vYPM5A1HQ= Received: by 10.112.25.35 with SMTP id z3mr5853436lbf.52.1326925846183; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:30:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:30:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbXkgQ29tcG9zdGVsbGE=?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:30:51 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 22:20, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >> The attached patch provides the desktop frame and windows configuration >> save&restore feature : the desktop module saves all the frame and their > > Thanks. =C2=A0Since we're in feature freeze, this will have to wait. > In the mean time, you may want to check the new window-state-get and > window-state-put functions which should provide you with a form of > window configuration which you can directly print&read, hence > simplifying your code. Sounds very nice it is finally going to make its way into Emacs. Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way now... ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 17:47:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RneIJ-0000em-IY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:47:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RneIG-0000eC-Rk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:47:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RneIF-0003Br-Sf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:47:48 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:37686) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RneIF-0003Bn-NR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:47:47 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RneID-0004Ut-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:47:45 +0100 Received: from c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.229.140.53]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:47:45 +0100 Received: from mindcooler by c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:47:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Eric Lilja Subject: Re: emacs-20120116-r106877 Windows Binaries Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:47:30 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 In-Reply-To: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:47:49 -0000 On 2012-01-17 05:13, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > The Emacs Trunk Windows Binaries (bzr revno 106877) have been published in > > http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ > > The binaries were built using the following libraries: > giflib-4.1.4-1 > gnutls-3.0.9 > jpeg-6b-4 > libXpm-3.5.8 > libpng-1.4.3-1 > tiff-3.8.2-1 > zlib-1.2.5-2 > > Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, > or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. > > For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. > > I imported the GNU keyring, but when I tried to verify the .sig file accompanying this binary, I got a public key not found error. The key of the person who used to build and provide this binaries are in that keyring, but not yours? Maybe I made a mistake, I'm new to gpg. - EL From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 18 18:36:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnf3i-0002N2-GT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:36:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45204) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnf3f-0002IW-KE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:36:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnf3e-0001ws-NF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:36:47 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44357) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnf3e-0001wl-H4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:36:46 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnf3d-0000NP-7q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:36:45 +0100 Received: from 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk ([82.69.64.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:36:45 +0100 Received: from andrewjmoreton by 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:36:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Andy Moreton Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:36:25 +0000 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8262g8shvq.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:dHqzZGar5t6JhNiu3kLxXAMoyvY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:36:48 -0000 On Sun 15 Jan 2012, Chong Yidong wrote: > Emacs pretest 23.0.90 is now available for download via FTP, at the > following location: > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.3.90.tar.gz > > This is a pretest for a planned Emacs 23.4 release, which will fix the > security flaw in EDE reported on emacs-devel a few days ago. It also > fixes many other bugs in Emacs 23.3, but contains no new features. > > Please help give this as much testing as possible over the next few > days, as I hope to make the Emacs 23.4 release from this if no > significant problems are found in this pretest. > > Please send me an email reporting success or failure on your build > platform, and report bugs that you find via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or > email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. > > Thanks. Please be careful with version numbers in your next announcement - this one seemed confused over 23.0.90 (subject line) vs 23.3.90 :-) AndyM From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 02:21:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnmJ2-0006xO-6v for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:21:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44663) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnmIt-0006wq-No for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:21:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnmIn-00034p-Pp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:20:59 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:52436) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnmIn-00034l-OK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:20:53 -0500 Received: from [155.69.19.174] (port=44499 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnmIn-0001BF-1e; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:20:53 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:20:46 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:34:32 +0100") Message-ID: <87vco8jgz5.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:21:07 -0000 Michael Heerdegen writes: > My question is: is this a bug, or intended behavior? If it is intended, > why, and is there a way to get the mouse highlighting nevertheless work > or to override the default behavior? In my scenario, it is important > that the mouse-face works also for strings consisting of newlines, to > indicate that it's clickable text. >From my understanding, the mouse-face highlighting only triggers when the cursor is over a text character glyph, but this should not be a fundamental limitation, and is something we could change in future releases. I suggest filing a bug report. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 04:10:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rno14-0000FT-He for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:10:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45208) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rno0x-0000F6-Se for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:10:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rno0r-0002mN-Nv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:10:35 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60921) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rno0r-0002mC-IP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:10:29 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rno0q-0002D1-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:10:28 +0100 Received: from ip-109-91-181-112.unitymediagroup.de ([109.91.181.112]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:10:28 +0100 Received: from parozusa by ip-109-91-181-112.unitymediagroup.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:10:28 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Martin Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:09:43 +0100 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-109-91-181-112.unitymediagroup.de User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:u7ddpdI/6dPGznYKFBmDDmfV+4U= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:10:41 -0000 Werner LEMBERG writes: > I've done a quick update of TUTORIAL.de -- there are certainly issues > which can be improved, but I'm short of time, unfortunately. > > It's revno 106888. > > > Werner Details ? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 04:37:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnoRA-00062G-72 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:37:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34378) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnoR2-000614-Rn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:37:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnoQy-0006cg-E8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:37:32 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:49489) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnoQy-0006cZ-2W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 04:37:28 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jan 2012 09:37:25 -0000 Received: from 77.119.200.131.wireless.dyn.drei.com (EHLO localhost) [77.119.200.131] by mail.gmx.net (mp033) with SMTP; 19 Jan 2012 10:37:25 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18YNM83+AMYHIBZFKMw7GvHNG5t+UknMw+UOnLfjF Gi8LpdOJ7V5k9C Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:37:12 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> To: parozusa@web.de Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG In-Reply-To: <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:37:38 -0000 >> I've done a quick update of TUTORIAL.de -- there are certainly >> issues which can be improved, but I'm short of time, unfortunately. >> >> It's revno 106888. > > Details ? The section `MULE' (which doesn't exist in TUTORIAL) could certainly be improved. Werner From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 07:04:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnqip-0003Fi-7I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:04:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57245) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnqim-0003FJ-R4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:04:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnqii-0006kQ-Mv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:04:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57154) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnqii-0006kM-LO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:03:56 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnqii-0006v0-FP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:03:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:03:56 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Werner LEMBERG In-reply-to: <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> (message from Werner LEMBERG on Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:37:12 +0100 (CET)) Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:04:01 -0000 > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:37:12 +0100 (CET) > From: Werner LEMBERG > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > The section `MULE' (which doesn't exist in TUTORIAL) could certainly > be improved. Or, rather, removed? Translations of the tutorial are not supposed to have text that doesn't exist in the English tutorial. If we allow that, we will have a tremendous maintenance problem on our hands, whereby maintainers cannot be sure they control what is or isn't in the package. If a translator wants to suggest additions, she should do it first in the English tutorial. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 07:19:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnqxW-0008Dh-6s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33615) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnqxT-0008AQ-Lc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnqxP-0000N8-NU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57309) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnqxP-0000N3-Hu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:07 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnqxO-0007ia-SN; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:06 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, michael_heerdegen@web.de In-reply-to: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:34:32 +0100) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:19:12 -0000 > From: Michael Heerdegen > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:34:32 +0100 > Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, michael_heerdegen@web.de > > My question is: is this a bug, or intended behavior? It is intended behavior, in that the implementation of this feature explicitly supports mouse highlight only on the following parts of the display: . mode line . header line . left and right margins (NOT fringes!) . text > If it is intended, why, and is there a way to get the mouse > highlighting nevertheless work or to override the default behavior? There's no way around this current, no. > In my scenario, it is important that the mouse-face works also for > strings consisting of newlines, to indicate that it's clickable > text. Could you please describe your scenario in more detail? Empty lines have no text, so it's unclear how can you talk about "clickable text" in that case. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 08:02:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnrdL-0008CE-PP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:02:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56922) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnrdE-0008C3-MP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:02:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnrdA-000893-1C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:02:20 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:39295) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnrd9-00088S-N0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:02:16 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jan 2012 13:02:08 -0000 Received: from 77.119.200.131.wireless.dyn.drei.com (EHLO localhost) [77.119.200.131] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 19 Jan 2012 14:02:08 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18FUR4Vb0QFLWGCJs+xZPsk3j0ig6t6dSmt9jD+vo MffUueh09cXtis Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:02:03 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> To: eliz@gnu.org Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG In-Reply-To: References: <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:02:26 -0000 >> The section `MULE' (which doesn't exist in TUTORIAL) could >> certainly be improved. > > Or, rather, removed? Translations of the tutorial are not supposed > to have text that doesn't exist in the English tutorial. Hmm. > If we allow that, we will have a tremendous maintenance problem on > our hands, whereby maintainers cannot be sure they control what is > or isn't in the package. The section how to select a German input method, and how to select Latin-1 encoding (and now UTF-8) was there from the very beginning of the translation. > If a translator wants to suggest additions, she should do it first > in the English tutorial. Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign languages, does she? Werner From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 08:08:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnrj8-0000Se-1A for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:08:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59921) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnrj0-0000Qb-Pd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:08:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnriu-0000n8-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:08:18 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:47205) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnriu-0000n3-NJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:08:12 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so6796113obb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:08:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=nQEt3DMZredCAT74Ndxg/9Ax555LgQEKydPS2CYGJIs=; b=Zh6z1S6ivgalbbYOTlN8fdU3U2FVRUxw3k/3yFC6IA4lwwV3furXCVmM3Dw0fryIR2 ffGEussYPQsjQm2E99FFkjlHSS2oFepKwhr4fHFNpLXrZy48mSxvQqcNHboRreLrjI+E yNRMrItY/BDVAdoAmAo7cGt4QXft+UsPvx9SA= Received: by 10.182.212.105 with SMTP id nj9mr22673692obc.62.1326978492201; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:08:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:07:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:07:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore To: Lennart Borgman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f5038b6a6fac004b6e14198 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:08:24 -0000 --e89a8f5038b6a6fac004b6e14198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2012/1/18 Lennart Borgman > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 22:20, Stefan Monnier > wrote: > >> The attached patch provides the desktop frame and windows configuration > >> save&restore feature : the desktop module saves all the frame and their > > > > Thanks. Since we're in feature freeze, this will have to wait. > > In the mean time, you may want to check the new window-state-get and > > window-state-put functions which should provide you with a form of > > window configuration which you can directly print&read, hence > > simplifying your code. > I haven't seen these two function functions. As you propose, I will try to use them. Thanks. Sounds very nice it is finally going to make its way into Emacs. > > Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality > included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to > incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have > actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way > now... ;-) > It sounds interesting but I don't know anything about this nxhtml package, could you please give me some entry point for the feature we are talking about like one or two function name ? :) -- One Emacs to rule them all --e89a8f5038b6a6fac004b6e14198 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/18 Lennart Borgman <= lennart.borgman@gmail.com&= gt;
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 22:20, Stef= an Monnier <monnier@iro.umon= treal.ca> wrote:
>> The attached patch provides the desktop frame and windows configur= ation
>> save&restore feature : the desktop module saves all the frame = and their
>
> Thanks. =A0Since we're in feature freeze, this will have to wait.<= br> > In the mean time, you may want to check the new window-state-get and > window-state-put functions which should provide you with a form of
> window configuration which you can directly print&read, hence
> simplifying your code.
I haven't = seen these two function functions. As you propose, I will try=A0
= to use them. Thanks.

Sounds very nice it is finally going to make its way into Emacs= .

Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality
included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to
incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have
actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way
now... ;-)
It sounds=A0interesting=A0but I don't k= now anything about this nxhtml package,
could you please give=A0m= e some entry point for the feature we are talking
about like one = or two function name ? :)

--
One Emacs to rule them all
--e89a8f5038b6a6fac004b6e14198-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 08:19:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnrtR-0002nd-Lu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:19:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnrtO-0002nH-KU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:19:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnrtM-00036O-KP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:19:02 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:51837) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnrtM-00036H-AE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:19:00 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so2130366lag.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:18:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xGgKYinlwP5LtiUMPD9vStkHJq26VuObSgYLZAwCEAY=; b=li4tOZZcBUEFzdrFOVB8GX7xfOr3ULoLurqnMg/VWUaa4m3jQUFnu9lQlVh9ozZOst Ju8ZD2X0vBtVIOuaM7YaeXw3Z16paWZiX5Mh3vUAU8wcwcEqbOcirxQ2DJX8ewWPCLRQ Pq9BK7usbEWHwhQxJGuC/+7thh6Dd3RFEPcWE= Received: by 10.152.146.99 with SMTP id tb3mr13757283lab.7.1326979139282; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:18:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.194 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:18:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbXkgQ29tcG9zdGVsbGE=?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:19:03 -0000 2012/1/19 J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my Compostella : > 2012/1/18 Lennart Borgman >> >> Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality >> included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to >> incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have >> actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way >> now... ;-) > > It sounds=C2=A0interesting=C2=A0but I don't know anything about this nxht= ml package, > could you please give=C2=A0me some entry point for the feature we are tal= king > about like one or two function name ? :) You will find the package here: https://launchpad.net/nxhtml The description of it there is perhaps a bit misleading ... ;-) The easiest way to find the code is just to download it and load the package. There is a menu entry nXhtml - Options - Save/Restore Frames and Windows From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 08:54:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnsRq-0004Xv-Rk for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:54:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44248) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnsRl-0004Tc-Pi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:54:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnsRk-0000we-6F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:54:33 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:62675) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnsRj-0000wa-Uh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:54:32 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so6179102wic.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:54:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=uoMx0aOFd6C9CRb1uN28BTwqGSYp6dJbQEz3H3xE1hw=; b=EJzBIk1R9dLil361GYCTFSNVSbLy2cYvDQ92Abarq7/Ti4MBVtmYjxlH6Mm6v1JKnX c/Q7CVhGXLzethgEpwGF+hP9oXwbZB5eu45+9EeoIpI13V+UpIHsxZoR+e0QISZszgao ZiIVP7PTe5UAm2qtRlUKj0VuGkdt4fkgUHgBk= Received: by 10.180.91.201 with SMTP id cg9mr44354619wib.15.1326981271143; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Apollo.jerryland.fr (pierre.csie.fr. [212.51.164.178]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bu13sm30847061wib.6.2012.01.19.05.54.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:54:30 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my_Compostella?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] window.el: Remove mark saving and restoring Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:54:45 +0100 Message-ID: <8739bbvlui.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:54:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Working on the "desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore" thread I'm trying to use the `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' functions. I got a bad behavior. Indeed when I restore a window from its previous state, the mark is modified and activated. As long as I know, mark is buffer related and not window related so we don't have to save and restore it here. The author himself commented this code part with : ;; I'm not sure whether we should set the mark here, but maybe ;; it can be used. I propose the attached patch which removes the mark save&restore part. Regards, J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-window.el-Remove-mark-saving-and-restoring.patch Content-Description: 0001-window.el-Remove-mark-saving-and-restoring.patch >From fb68050a5d6ed714d8f80c5a3cb47e5755dd7127 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jeremy Compostella Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:33:32 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] window.el: Remove mark saving and restoring As long as I know mark is related to a buffer and not to a window. It should be saved by buffer functions and not window functions. Moreover, when I call window-state-put on a window-state-get previously stored the mark is changed and activated which does not look like the desired behavior. Signed-off-by: Jeremy Compostella --- lisp/window.el | 16 ++++------------ 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/window.el b/lisp/window.el index 54e5ec9..c6e9605 100644 --- a/lisp/window.el +++ b/lisp/window.el @@ -3612,11 +3612,10 @@ specific buffers." `((parameters . ,list)))) ,@(when buffer ;; All buffer related things go in here - make the buffer - ;; current when retrieving `point' and `mark'. + ;; current when retrieving `point' and `start'. (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) (let ((point (window-point-1 window)) - (start (window-start window)) - (mark (mark t))) + (start (window-start window))) `((buffer ,(buffer-name buffer) (selected . ,selected) @@ -3629,10 +3628,7 @@ specific buffers." (vscroll . ,(window-vscroll window)) (dedicated . ,(window-dedicated-p window)) (point . ,(if ignore point (copy-marker point))) - (start . ,(if ignore start (copy-marker start))) - ,@(when mark - `((mark . ,(if ignore - mark (copy-marker mark)))))))))))) + (start . ,(if ignore start (copy-marker start)))))))))) (tail (when (memq type '(vc hc)) (let (list) @@ -3815,11 +3811,7 @@ value can be also stored on disk and read back in a new session." ;; have been created and sized). (ignore-errors (set-window-start window (cdr (assq 'start state))) - (set-window-point window (cdr (assq 'point state))) - ;; I'm not sure whether we should set the mark here, but maybe - ;; it can be used. - (let ((mark (cdr (assq 'mark state)))) - (when mark (set-mark mark)))) + (set-window-point window (cdr (assq 'point state)))) ;; Select window if it's the selected one. (when (cdr (assq 'selected state)) (select-window window))))))) -- 1.7.2.5 --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 09:10:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnshc-0007p9-PG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:10:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnshS-0007p1-NE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:10:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnshM-0003zy-SP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:10:46 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:52565) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnshM-0003zo-PG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:10:40 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so6886393obb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:10:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=oVQklrKHjTadkK4wVWCWIQraTbL1lZLKYeLqeJxmtJI=; b=rFXwkb7s+7+61PI492Wbr/DT3DSo9dty6spvAiu0O5dTdeTQ9pB294WEUqnScs8wN8 9nzEyCs6hKxESlijnAtFy0FGy5PMefw4lCNxF+TW4I1iZCc44iVN2phLMRXzc06ixn6I giswn1d+T117mgNwx3yfY9EKB+YNN+XUG81QE= Received: by 10.182.75.65 with SMTP id a1mr22913301obw.32.1326982240111; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:10:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:10:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8762g8vq53.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:10:19 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration save&restore To: Lennart Borgman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93996e10b8d2104b6e2212e X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:10:56 -0000 --14dae93996e10b8d2104b6e2212e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2012/1/19 Lennart Borgman > 2012/1/19 J=E9r=E9my Compostella : > > 2012/1/18 Lennart Borgman > >> > >> Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality > >> included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to > >> incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have > >> actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way > >> now... ;-) > > > > It sounds interesting but I don't know anything about this nxhtml > package, > > could you please give me some entry point for the feature we are talkin= g > > about like one or two function name ? :) > > You will find the package here: https://launchpad.net/nxhtml > The description of it there is perhaps a bit misleading ... ;-) > > The easiest way to find the code is just to download it and load the > package. There is a menu entry > > nXhtml - Options - Save/Restore Frames and Windows > Indeed, there are maybe concept I may want to incorporate. Thanks. --14dae93996e10b8d2104b6e2212e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/19 Lennart Borgman <= lennart.borgman@gmail.com&= gt;
2012/1/19 J=E9r=E9my Compostella <jeremy.compostella@gmail.com>:
> 2012/1/18 Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>>
>> Jeremy, you may perhaps want to compare to the same functionality<= br> >> included in nXhtml to see if you find something there you like to<= br> >> incorporate. (It has been there for some years now, but I have
>> actually stopped using it myself since I work in a different way >> now... ;-)
>
> It sounds=A0interesting=A0but I don't know anything about this nxh= tml package,
> could you please give=A0me some entry point for the feature we are tal= king
> about like one or two function name ? :)

You will find the package here: https://launchpad.net/nxhtml
The description of it there is perhaps a bit misleading ... ;-)

The easiest way to find the code is just to download it and load the
package. There is a menu entry

=A0nXhtml - Options - Save/Restore Frames and Windows
Indeed, there are maybe concept I may want to incorporat= e. Thanks.

--14dae93996e10b8d2104b6e2212e-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 09:38:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnt82-0001pm-0Z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:38:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnt7q-0001no-Sa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:38:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnt7m-0000CM-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:38:02 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:42118) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnt7l-0000CC-J7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:37:57 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so6925059obb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:37:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=CG8Cdgqdfz36EaZArNvdLxS16mjOjvkgyHTMK0O2U48=; b=XTBXD7pChm2F3htjLOiVnOgwxBa55j3OjJARMlt0J4MAMgwc3QYOXd0UkQtoSsQUhl uhXfPe0WNsaAmYwBDA7jNBehSvj4DcHtK/qKsvy6I3g6Kd7rNXvGhVq3hE8u24u70jzY oVkyRJO85rQxyaqZ9N4sOGBPhkP4jkK/jSjHM= Received: by 10.182.179.70 with SMTP id de6mr23030672obc.22.1326983877144; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:37:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:37:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8739bbvlui.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> References: <8739bbvlui.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:37:35 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Remove mark saving and restoring To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f6428e09eb17e04b6e2828b X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:38:12 -0000 --e89a8f6428e09eb17e04b6e2828b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but don't read this thread. I should look at it more carefully before ;) 2012/1/19 J=E9r=E9my Compostella > All, > > Working on the "desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration > save&restore" thread I'm trying to use the `window-state-get' and > `window-state-put' functions. I got a bad behavior. Indeed when I > restore a window from its previous state, the mark is modified and > activated. As long as I know, mark is buffer related and not window > related so we don't have to save and restore it here. The author himself > commented this code part with : > > ;; I'm not sure whether we should set the mark here, but maybe > ;; it can be used. > > I propose the attached patch which removes the mark save&restore part. > > Regards, > > J=E9r=E9my > > --e89a8f6428e09eb17e04b6e2828b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but don't read this thread. I should look at it more carefully b= efore ;)

2012/1/19 J=E9r=E9my Compostella= <jere= my.compostella@gmail.com>
All,

Working on the "desktop.el: Add frames and windows configuration
save&restore" thread I'm trying to use the `window-state-get&#= 39; and
`window-state-put' functions. I got a bad behavior. Indeed when I
restore a window from its previous state, the mark is modified and
activated. As long as I know, mark is buffer related and not window
related so we don't have to save and restore it here. The author himsel= f
commented this code part with :

;; I'm not sure whether we should set the mark here, but maybe
;; it can be used.

I propose the attached patch which removes the mark save&restore part.<= br>
Regards,

J=E9r=E9my


--e89a8f6428e09eb17e04b6e2828b-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 09:56:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RntPk-0004mO-0T for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:56:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41541) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntPY-0004jX-Q6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:56:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntPU-00045g-5o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:56:20 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:58401) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntPM-00041d-13; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:56:08 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC54597079B; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:55:47 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AF5A611F72F; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:55:47 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Werner LEMBERG Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated In-Reply-To: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> References: <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:55:47 +0900 Message-ID: <8739bb7nd8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:56:30 -0000 Werner LEMBERG writes: > > If a translator wants to suggest additions, she should do it first > > in the English tutorial. > > Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign > languages, does she? No, but a translator to a language that doesn't yet have a version of TUTORIAL will most likely start from English. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 09:57:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RntQZ-00056b-FY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:57:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41872) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntQT-00056P-36 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:57:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntQO-0004Lz-KU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:57:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59872) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntQO-0004Lv-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:57:12 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:59374 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RntQN-0008Q7-4F; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:57:11 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Kazuhiro Ito Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> <874nvtgiep.fsf@gnu.org> <20120119084410.C0FC94B803A@msa106.auone-net.jp> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:57:03 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20120119084410.C0FC94B803A@msa106.auone-net.jp> (Kazuhiro Ito's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:44:04 +0900") Message-ID: <8739bb91vk.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:57:21 -0000 Kazuhiro Ito writes: > I hope at least Bug#9318 will be installed in Emacs 23.4. Because > that bug can crash Emacs on Windows very easily and Wanderlust (a mail > user agent) sometimes crashes in saving a draft message and loses it. Alright, I'll take the risk and merge in the Bug#9318 fix. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 11:16:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnuei-0004od-3Q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:16:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55595) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuVm-0008Ap-3a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:06:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuKM-0007Ek-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:55:07 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60927) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuKM-0007Eg-6m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:55:02 -0500 Received: from bb119-74-95-73.singnet.com.sg ([119.74.95.73]:60259 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuJn-0000p7-HM; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:54:28 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:53:41 +0800 Message-ID: <87sjjb4rju.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:16:01 -0000 The release candidate for Emacs 23.4 is now available for download at: ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.4rc1.tar.gz Note that although the version number has been bumped to 23.4 in the tarball and in the emacs-23 branch, I have not tagged the release yet, in case there are last minute changes. If no serious problem surfaces in the next couple of days, I'll release this as Emacs 23.4. So please help give it as much testing as possible. Thank you. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 11:20:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnuj2-0005r6-QT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:20:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60386) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnuj0-0005qt-8j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:20:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnuis-0004v7-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:20:30 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:58803) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnuir-0004uo-Na for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:20:22 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jan 2012 16:20:18 -0000 Received: from 77.119.200.131.wireless.dyn.drei.com (EHLO localhost) [77.119.200.131] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 19 Jan 2012 17:20:18 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/r8H5bCdPr/DiB71UDboIHr3S4lW+rcJp7CsaSby cbh/NYYXD0Pzhy Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:20:12 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120119.172012.193898292.wl@gnu.org> To: ulm@gentoo.org Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG In-Reply-To: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:20:31 -0000 DQo+IEkndmUgbm90aWNlZCB0aGF0IHlvdSd2ZSB1cGRhdGVkIGFsbCBgcXVvdGVzJyB0byDCu3F1 b3Rlc8KrIHdoaWNoIGlzDQo+IGNlcnRhaW5seSBhbiBpbXByb3ZlbWVudC4NCj4gDQo+IEJ1dCB3 aHkgbm90IOKAnnF1b3Rlc+KAnCB3aGljaCBpcyB0aGUgbW9yZSBjb21tb24gdmFyaWFudCBpbiBH ZXJtYW4/DQoNCkJlY2F1c2UgdGhvc2UgcXVvdGUgY2hhcmFjdGVycyBhcmUgbm90IGF2YWlsYWJs ZSBpbiBMYXRpbi0xLg0KQWRkaXRpb25hbGx5LCBJIGxpa2UgwrsgYW5kIMKrIG1vcmUgOi0pIEJU VywgSSBkb3VidCB0aGUgYG1vcmUgY29tbW9uJzoNClZpcnR1YWxseSBhbGwgbm92ZWwgYm9va3Mg cHVibGlzaGVkIGluIEdlcm1hbnkgb3IgQXVzdHJpYSB1c2UgwrsgYW5kIMKrLg0KDQoNCiAgICBX ZXJuZXINCg== From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 11:22:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnukn-00075l-BZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:22:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48835) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuVz-0001ZG-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:07:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuI0-0006bV-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:52:42 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:36784) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnuHz-0006Zd-ET; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:52:35 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q0JFqMah009516; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:52:22 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0JFqMkM013595; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:52:22 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0JFqM6r013594; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:52:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-ID: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:52:21 +0100 To: Werner LEMBERG Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated In-Reply-To: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de id q0JFqMah009516 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:22:19 -0000 >>>>> Werner LEMBERG wrote: > I've done a quick update of TUTORIAL.de -- there are certainly > issues which can be improved, but I'm short of time, unfortunately. I've noticed that you've updated all `quotes' to =C2=BBquotes=C2=AB which= is certainly an improvement. But why not =E2=80=9Equotes=E2=80=9C which is the more common variant in = German? (BTW, are there any plans to stop that abuse of the grave accent as an opening quotation mark in the rest of the documentation? Or am I the only one who uses fonts where the `' pair looks so ugly and asymmetric?) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 11:24:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnunI-0007fo-Fm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:24:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnunB-0007dv-T9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:24:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnun3-0005ta-KD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:24:49 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:60103) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnun3-0005tM-8U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:24:41 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 19 Jan 2012 16:24:38 -0000 Received: from 77.119.200.131.wireless.dyn.drei.com (EHLO localhost) [77.119.200.131] by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 19 Jan 2012 17:24:38 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+fgPMx3XqffCtrOSBqC+j3Zt1DJTuprtd31CxOwv UGQSkM1EsyG1P3 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:24:30 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120119.172430.295735170.wl@gnu.org> To: stephen@xemacs.org Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG In-Reply-To: <8739bb7nd8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> <8739bb7nd8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:24:54 -0000 > > > If a translator wants to suggest additions, she should do it > > > first in the English tutorial. > > > > Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign > > languages, does she? > > No, but a translator to a language that doesn't yet have a version of > TUTORIAL will most likely start from English. Ah, yes, I haven't thought of this. Unfortunately, I don't have time to translate the MULE section to English, sorry. Werner From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 11:41:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnv3g-0005ke-0g for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39047) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnv3a-0005j8-H1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnv3U-0001Hw-LR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:46 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:33663) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnv3U-0001Hs-Dx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:40 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnv3S-0001G1-UB; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:38 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> X-Spook: Juiliett Class Submarine quiche BCCI Kosovo Hamas SDI X-Ran: f>0PFp4H=eo.'nqAW3`H/4YQOK;y)dcuCmdW!|?dze* X-Hue: blue X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:41:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> (Ulrich Mueller's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:52:21 +0100") Message-ID: <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:41:50 -0000 Ulrich Mueller wrote: > (BTW, are there any plans to stop that abuse of the grave accent as an > opening quotation mark in the rest of the documentation? http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10443 It will be a hard habit to change. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 12:00:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnvLJ-0006rA-OC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:00:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57353) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnnbe-0003sq-UQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:44:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnnbb-000795-0v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:44:26 -0500 Received: from msa106.auone-net.jp ([61.117.18.166]:54570) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnnbY-00072O-Q9; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:44:21 -0500 Received: from GUNGNIR.med.osaka-cu.ac.jp (unknown [114.179.36.76]) by msa106.auone-net.jp (au one net msa) with ESMTP id C0FC94B803A; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:44:10 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:44:04 +0900 From: Kazuhiro Ito To: Chong Yidong Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 In-Reply-To: <874nvtgiep.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> <874nvtgiep.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/24.0.92 (i386-mingw-nt6.1.7601) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20120119084410.C0FC94B803A@msa106.auone-net.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 61.117.18.166 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:00:03 -0500 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:44:32 -0000 > > Please merge fixes for Bug#8619, Bug#8738, Bug#9318 and Bug#9389 from > > trunk. > > Ah, I didn't realize those fixes were committed to the trunk rather than > the branch. But I think they will have to wait for Emacs 24.1. I hope at least Bug#9318 will be installed in Emacs 23.4. Because that bug can crash Emacs on Windows very easily and Wanderlust (a mail user agent) sometimes crashes in saving a draft message and loses it. -- Kazuhiro Ito From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 12:15:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnvaH-0000dq-Vu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37442) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnvaA-0000ar-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnva1-0000p5-DY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:26 -0500 Received: from mail-vx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169]:43795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnvZv-0000oG-2n; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:11 -0500 Received: by vcbfl11 with SMTP id fl11so155757vcb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.149.200 with SMTP id u8mr15918572vcv.35.1326993309875; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from squish.raeburn.org (c-66-31-202-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [66.31.202.94]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eh3sm16143vdc.2.2012.01.19.09.15.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:15:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ken Raeburn In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:07 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Miles Bader X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.220.169 Cc: Emacs Dev X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:15:32 -0000 On Jan 17, 2012, at 23:32, Miles Bader wrote: > immerrr again writes: >> As some of you might know, lua-mode, Emacs major mode for editing = Lua, is >> undergoing integration to Emacs mainline. >=20 > Hopefully lua-mode's bogus handling of symbols vs. words will finally > be fixed as a result..... >=20 > [lua-mode redefines "_" as a word-component; it shouldn't, as it > really messes with users' instincts, and makes Emacs commands less > useful. Historically this was often done by language-modes as an > simple (though misguided) expedient to allow them to safely use "\<" > and \>" in regexps matching keywords, but nowadays they shouldn't do > that, they should leave "_" alone and use "\_<" and "\_>" instead.] My "instincts" have long been to interpret "word" as "identifier or = keyword" in programming modes, to the point of customizing the syntax = tables at startup to make "_" a word component. Not for regular = expressions, but for word-motion commands; I like the fact that I can = skip over one identifier with M-f no matter how many underscores it = contains -- string_to_widget, stringToWidget, string2widget, and = stringtowidget are all treated the same. It's also more useful in = constructing keyboard macros that kill-word identifiers and later yank = them from the kill ring; typing in a regexp search would be much more = annoying. I haven't made the customization yet at my new (well, ~2 years) job -- = but that's because our coding standards use camelCaseAndNoUnderscores so = the word-motion commands already work on identifiers and not on = (English) words. (Though I've been dealing with Linux code lately, so = it may be time to make the change.) If I often wanted to deal with the = individual English words making up an identifier, the handling of = underscore wouldn't be enough to make Emacs work correctly. I realize I'm much closer to the power-user end of the spectrum than = most typical users, but among those heavily using programming modes, is = this such a strange mind-set? (I have no particular opinion on lua-mode specifically.) Ken= From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 12:15:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnvaM-0000os-47 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37467) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnvaE-0000bV-Rz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnva5-0000pY-7x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:30 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:33432) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnva4-0000pH-Vr; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:21 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY200C002IAHW00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:15:16 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY200BAB2LFO8A0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:15:16 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:15:14 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated In-reply-to: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Werner LEMBERG Message-id: <83pqef4nrx.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87pqegcb3c.fsf@web.de> <20120119.103712.525711725.wl@gnu.org> <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:15:37 -0000 > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:02:03 +0100 (CET) > Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Werner LEMBERG > > The section how to select a German input method, and how to select > Latin-1 encoding (and now UTF-8) was there from the very beginning of > the translation. > > > If a translator wants to suggest additions, she should do it first > > in the English tutorial. > > Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign > languages, does she? Probably not, but then why does a German user need a lesson on how to type German on her keyboard? Is a situation where a native German speaker learns to use Emacs on a machine that doesn't already support German input on the OS level anything but very rare? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 12:22:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnvhH-0003d1-AK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:22:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59714) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnvhC-0003cY-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:22:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnvh6-00021z-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:22:42 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:18420) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnvh6-00021Z-0L; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:22:36 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0JHMQb8020380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:22:27 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0JHMP4p005302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:22:26 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0JHMPHt031542; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:22:25 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:22:25 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Glenn Morris'" , "'Ulrich Mueller'" References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org><20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> Subject: RE: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:22:24 -0800 Message-ID: <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: AczWyUHxfAcpKu6gQnmxR66YT+HXlwAAn05g X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F185153.00D1,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:22:46 -0000 > > (BTW, are there any plans to stop that abuse of the grave > > accent as an opening quotation mark in the rest of the > > documentation? I certainly hope not. Quite misguided, IMO. > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10443 > It will be a hard habit to change. It is not just a question of habit. Having different characters for starting and ending such text simplifies distinguishing that text (e.g. font-locking). Which start and end chars are conventionally chosen for this is not nearly as important as the fact that they be different. The URL that Glenn cites gives this as the (only) rationale for changing: This proposed patch follows up on recent changes to the GNU coding standards. They now suggest that we should quote 'like this' or "like this" instead of `like this'; see . Such a change to "the GNU coding standards" might or might not make sense for C coding (that is the only context cited where "the GNU coding standards" have been changed in this regard). But it definitely does not make sense for Emacs, IMO. `...' is an Emacs doc & UI convention, not simply a "coding standard". From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 13:15:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnwVr-0001av-BU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:15:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59368) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnwVm-0001WU-4V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:15:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnwVg-000375-EE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:14:58 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:36975) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnwVg-00036Y-5X; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:14:52 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295509707DE; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:14:49 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ECE371A32C6; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:14:48 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated In-Reply-To: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:14:48 +0900 Message-ID: <87zkdj5zl3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:15:02 -0000 Ulrich Mueller writes: > >>>>> Werner LEMBERG wrote: > (BTW, are there any plans to stop that abuse of the grave accent as an > opening quotation mark in the rest of the documentation? Or am I the > only one who uses fonts where the `' pair looks so ugly and > asymmetric?) In printed documentation TeX will turn it into proper quotation marks. So, probably no change in Texinfo sources. It should be possible to patch the to-Info and to-HTML drivers in makeinfo to generate proper quotes in Latin-1. Ask Karl Berry if a patch would be accepted. In docstrings, changing this would require teaching various parts of the help system to recognize quotes rather than grave accent. But maybe help display functions (eg, C-h f) could do the translation using display tables. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 13:50:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnx3y-0001Af-07 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:50:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38489) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnx3v-000197-2Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:50:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnx3t-000137-Pi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:50:15 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:37847) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnx3t-000100-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:50:13 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q0JIo3jw013055; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:50:03 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0JIo3X0015697; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:50:03 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0JIo3cr015696; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:50:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20248.26075.153199.234934@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:50:03 +0100 To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: quotation marks (was: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated) In-Reply-To: <87zkdj5zl3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <87zkdj5zl3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:50:16 -0000 >>>>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Stephen J Turnbull wrote: >> (BTW, are there any plans to stop that abuse of the grave accent as >> an opening quotation mark in the rest of the documentation? Or am I >> the only one who uses fonts where the `' pair looks so ugly and >> asymmetric?) > In printed documentation TeX will turn it into proper quotation > marks. So, probably no change in Texinfo sources. Shouldn't it be written as @samp{foo} in Texinfo sources anyway? > It should be possible to patch the to-Info and to-HTML drivers in > makeinfo to generate proper quotes in Latin-1. Ask Karl Berry if a > patch would be accepted. > In docstrings, changing this would require teaching various parts of > the help system to recognize quotes rather than grave accent. But > maybe help display functions (eg, C-h f) could do the translation > using display tables. I think that display tables won't work, because some docstrings contain code with (lisp) backquotes. I guess these shouldn't be shown as quotes. ;-) For example, this one: backquote is a Lisp macro in `backquote.el'. [...] `(a ,b c) => (a (ba bb bc) c) ; insert the value of b `(a ,@b c) => (a ba bb bc c) ; splice in the value of b From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 13:57:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnxAf-0003ow-Rg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60240) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxAb-0003jM-Rq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxAa-00027Q-Mq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:09 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:46768) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxAY-00027A-Ta; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:07 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0JIv29w001711; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:02 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 62FDA130077; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Ken Raeburn Subject: Underscores and word commands Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Ken Raeburn's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:15:07 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4106=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4106> : streams <721241> : uri <1049852> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: Emacs Dev , Miles Bader X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:57:12 -0000 > My "instincts" have long been to interpret "word" as "identifier or keyword" That's OK. > in programming modes, to the point of customizing the syntax tables at > startup to make "_" a word component. Not for regular expressions, but for While you're free to do it in your .emacs of course, it's not a good solution when it makes its way into a package's source code because it then imposes this conflation of the two concepts on every user (they can't easily fix it in their .emacs). C-M-SPC, C-M-f, and C-M-b already jump over symbols in many of the relevant cases, but we should probably offer, along the lines of subword-mode, a new minor mode that makes word commands operate on symbols rather than just words (without messing with syntax tables, since that can have much further reaching consequences). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 14:43:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RnxtH-0008DW-EW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48253) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxtE-0008DC-7Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxtD-0000pP-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:16 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:35956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RnxtC-0000pK-U0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:15 -0500 Received: by werl4 with SMTP id l4so330464wer.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=MYioo9k5dc/qMU/VXnjaem/uRUueAOzzTMVzT+go7pg=; b=OAVFqNJE9Rz13Kovoy4CLABwD3ro4DZWuolU/o9QpA+T4efMD1OXvCcnDvqLUJ6Uxe /+5JspuOI5MIXTFsXzUuYWjt3i7dWTCY9M+XhXW8g2IHT4hss8L+doF2522MdWoYhm1i v5/0cq7okq9zNliZj6Jr2XHrKy9ntBODTxYMc= Received: by 10.216.139.91 with SMTP id b69mr1130904wej.51.1327002193598; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from Apollo.jerryland.fr ([85.69.251.50]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eq5sm1234182wib.2.2012.01.19.11.43.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my_Compostella?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:43:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:43:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I think the current window.el `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' function does not manage the mark well. First, `mark-active' save was missing in the `window-state-get' function. Second, `window-state-put' restore the mark without taking into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restore the active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in restored buffer. Please, review it or merge it, Best Regards, J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-window.el-Improve-mark-management.patch Content-Description: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management >From d50e46f53dd09f9ab133ef3ca048ec3cd8023bdf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jeremy Compostella Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:21:58 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management First, `mark-active' save was missing in the `window-state-get' function. Second, `window-state-put' restore the mark without taking into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restore the active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in restored buffer. Signed-off-by: Jeremy Compostella --- lisp/window.el | 9 +++++---- 1 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/window.el b/lisp/window.el index 54e5ec9..6a2be23 100644 --- a/lisp/window.el +++ b/lisp/window.el @@ -3632,7 +3632,8 @@ specific buffers." (start . ,(if ignore start (copy-marker start))) ,@(when mark `((mark . ,(if ignore - mark (copy-marker mark)))))))))))) + mark (copy-marker mark))) + (mark-active . ,mark-active)))))))))) (tail (when (memq type '(vc hc)) (let (list) @@ -3816,10 +3817,10 @@ value can be also stored on disk and read back in a new session." (ignore-errors (set-window-start window (cdr (assq 'start state))) (set-window-point window (cdr (assq 'point state))) - ;; I'm not sure whether we should set the mark here, but maybe - ;; it can be used. (let ((mark (cdr (assq 'mark state)))) - (when mark (set-mark mark)))) + (when mark + (push-mark mark t) + (setq mark-active (cdr (assq 'mark-active state)))))) ;; Select window if it's the selected one. (when (cdr (assq 'selected state)) (select-window window))))))) -- 1.7.2.5 --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 15:39:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnylp-0002jb-E5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnyln-0002jT-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnylm-0000rw-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:39 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:56521) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnyll-0000rk-3F; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:37 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so474258obb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:39:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BmJ1cAjcsfjks1bWqOVYVqzFAuJf97UDh4/8pnC1Pyg=; b=wmISZ0Zuoif5u87Zjuo0/Lypj6JxQvBBvEomgl4rS8gXL4dkV1jMa6sSkncQ/rmNaN 4O+35A5YqeJ0CkZI3EiM6Vw1icDUhAq7xgcw5yQ8TM34KTL7FNiSFpxk/7YXm8xQRCpT C15BwA5OLQumC168YuO8z3htIJRLlCP4pq55s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.72.74 with SMTP id b10mr24014825obv.69.1327005575892; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:39:35 -0800 (PST) Sender: john.yates.sheets@gmail.com Received: by 10.182.54.73 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:39:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:35 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aSx16CHoJGTmgTIsofGraX-aoxk Message-ID: Subject: Re: Underscores and word commands From: John Yates To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Miles Bader , Ken Raeburn , Emacs Dev X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:39:40 -0000 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > ... we should probably offer, along the lines of > subword-mode, a new minor mode that makes word commands operate on > symbols rather than just words Yes! Please do. 24.2? /john From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 15:47:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnysx-0003ce-DM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:47:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59283) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnysu-0003cU-Ik for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:47:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnyss-000211-Fl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:47:00 -0500 Received: from mail-bk0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41]:35973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnyss-00020a-6B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:46:58 -0500 Received: by bkbzx1 with SMTP id zx1so404108bkb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=dEROObRnALkgw7ppnNzi9r7QRSZECMwNP7uo0jvMK5U=; b=EGcU7uL85x+MoI8Yh/3stVkKkHR6brVquRbTxjmHTL4vYOpxq10oq+IL9wagdHwfxc lWnR9JSa0Rexd//JgKJrRRMOZDE4HKjgDrfXh05zryI8WM5cIu/wm2FKTdC68f+DzpFv qolUqzfiwY+sxE8VML0yn2MD4dkbeZcNW/qKo= Received: by 10.204.156.133 with SMTP id x5mr6579266bkw.86.1327006016217; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.49.10 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Hanchrow Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:35 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: [PATCH] * info/tramp (File): Tweak wording for the `scpc' option. To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:47:02 -0000 ChangeLog | 4 ++++ doc/misc/tramp.texi | 15 ++++++++++++--- 2 files changed, 16 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog index 605ef32..0a3565e 100644 --- a/ChangeLog +++ b/ChangeLog @@ -1,3 +1,7 @@ +2012-01-19 Eric Hanchrow + + * info/tramp (File): Tweak wording for the `scpc' option. + 2011-12-17 Paul Eggert Port HAVE_PTHREAD configuration to MirBSD 10 (Bug#10201). diff --git a/doc/misc/tramp.texi b/doc/misc/tramp.texi index 1cea074..f0de574 100644 --- a/doc/misc/tramp.texi +++ b/doc/misc/tramp.texi @@ -866,13 +866,22 @@ Newer versions of @option{ssh} (for example OpenSSH 4) offer an option @option{ControlMaster}. This allows @option{scp} to reuse an existing @option{ssh} channel, which increases performance. -Before you use this method, you shall check whether your @option{ssh} -implementation does support this option. Try from the command line +Before you use this method, you should check whether your @option{ssh} +implementation supports this option. Try from the command line @example -ssh localhost -o ControlMaster=yes +ssh localhost -o ControlMaster=yes /bin/true @end example +If that command succeeds silently, then you can use @option{scpc}; but +if it fails like + +@example +command-line: line 0: Bad configuration option: ControlMaster +@end example + +then you cannot use it. + This method supports the @samp{-p} argument. -- 1.7.8.rc3.17.gf56ef1 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 16:45:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnznj-0008Du-U0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:45:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36893) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnznh-0008DW-Lz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:45:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzng-0002L0-H9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:45:41 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:45535) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzng-0002Ku-9g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:45:40 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY200700EWHTK00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:45:38 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY2007JIF41QN80@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:45:38 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:45:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks (was: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated) In-reply-to: <20248.26075.153199.234934@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ulrich Mueller Message-id: <83mx9j4b9a.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <87zkdj5zl3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20248.26075.153199.234934@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:45:42 -0000 > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:50:03 +0100 > From: Ulrich Mueller > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > In printed documentation TeX will turn it into proper quotation > > marks. So, probably no change in Texinfo sources. > > Shouldn't it be written as @samp{foo} in Texinfo sources anyway? I believe Stephen was talking about ``quoted text'', not about @samp or @code or @file. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 16:55:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnzx6-00020B-Ux for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:55:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58498) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzx5-0001zh-4A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:55:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzx4-0004Uc-7e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:55:23 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:64728) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzx4-0004UV-05 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:55:22 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY200400FH3PO00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:54:38 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY20038HFJ1T0G0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:54:38 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:54:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [PATCH] * info/tramp (File): Tweak wording for the `scpc' option. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Eric Hanchrow Message-id: <83k44n4aua.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:55:23 -0000 > From: Eric Hanchrow > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:35 -0800 > > +If that command succeeds silently, then you can use @option{scpc}; but > +if it fails like > + > +@example > +command-line: line 0: Bad configuration option: ControlMaster > +@end example > + > +then you cannot use it. You want a @noindent before the last line, otherwise it will be indented as if it were a new paragraph. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 16:57:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rnzz3-0002P7-BV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:57:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58927) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzz0-0002OA-S3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:57:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzyz-0004j8-IE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:57:22 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:39073) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnzyz-0004iq-8J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:57:21 -0500 Received: by werl4 with SMTP id l4so445780wer.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=y4cO7/LC6duUDhlJSG9RLezkMmrQVoSRyJWRW/Qxmac=; b=VCbBD6JglSxSMvIYhJLtS5m88Zt89M0VQ0ykehL5KMPjgJTEOqvx4SWXdJ0sP6YEcE 1N9CC8UV+voMN/dgme7DbapMaL6s4Gv6yfQNUqxKlfBnek3aZW2xj0VKc81A0Q+iwRCj WJgPB1BqQVeScgBIwJnoQ+LGxbfrEFwPYOdvI= Received: by 10.216.131.234 with SMTP id m84mr8126651wei.24.1327010240343; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from Apollo.jerryland.fr ([85.69.251.50]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj10sm30319947wib.9.2012.01.19.13.57.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:57:19 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my_Compostella?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:57:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:57:24 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, When using window hscroll (toggle-truncate-lines on a long lines buffer), windmove misbehaves. I mean : with the following window configuration : +------+-----+ | | | | | 2 | | 1 +-----+ | | | | | 3 | +------+-----+ and with the very long lines buffer as current buffer of window 3 and point to the end of a line, `windmove-up' selects the window 1 instead of the window 2. Please merge the attached patch or review it. Best regards, J=C3=A9r=C3=A9my -- Sent from my Emacs --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-windmove.el-Fix-windmove-reference-loc-miscalculatio.patch Content-Description: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation >From 65341a5b715062679a228c23f74273194334f417 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jeremy Compostella Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:46:17 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation The `windmove-reference-loc' function should not take into account the `window-hscoll'. Signed-off-by: Jeremy Compostella --- lisp/windmove.el | 8 ++------ 1 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/windmove.el b/lisp/windmove.el index 10a5644..424b3e1 100644 --- a/lisp/windmove.el +++ b/lisp/windmove.el @@ -422,12 +422,8 @@ supplied, if ARG is greater or smaller than zero, respectively." bottom-right) ((= effective-arg 0) (windmove-coord-add - top-left - (let ((col-row - (posn-col-row - (posn-at-point (window-point window) window)))) - (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)) - (cdr col-row))))))))) + top-left + (posn-col-row (posn-at-point (window-point window) window)))))))) ;; This uses the reference location in the current window (calculated ;; by `windmove-reference-loc' above) to find a reference location -- 1.7.2.5 --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 18:08:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro15t-0002QV-4x for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:08:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58151) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro15q-0002PI-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:08:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro15p-0007G0-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:08:30 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:42543) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro15o-0007Fs-Rh; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:08:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A1739E800C; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7J3vBzlQXRxQ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E5B539E8006; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111115 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org><20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:08:31 -0000 On 01/19/12 09:22, Drew Adams wrote: > `...' is an Emacs doc & UI convention, not simply a "coding standard". For user interfaces it would be better if Emacs quoted =93like this=94 or =91like this=92 (i.e., using directed quote marks) in the typical case where these quote marks are supported. Quoting `like this' is no longer appropriate, since modern displays typically don't render ` and ' symmetrically, and it confuses new users when Emacs gives unusual interpretations to ` and '. One way to address this would be to prefer directed quote marks within the Emacs source code; the surrounding technology should recognize these quotes and do the right thing when displaying diagnostics on ASCII-only platforms. Use of ` for Lisp backquotes, shell backquotes, etc., would be undisturbed, of course. The only change would be for when we're quoting something in English text. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 21:42:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro4Qj-00086N-H5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:42:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39876) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro2fz-0005JD-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:49:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro2fy-0006va-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:49:55 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:49397) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro2fy-0006vO-Ll for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:49:54 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so88095iad.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1BfbK+NM36t8eH8R0s7tmc4LZjJ0FgFcm4Nkiy4r9tY=; b=XcbEfU6hK0a38fa12hB3w19NApIca7qIa+n3Bulj+SsD/rBZLn5GGtMSgtu88qUB3B GmFFPALxxHRTtlR95rJMBr8NjaLungIWJbPWkfw7g3YlBpnygHfTRMR4Ubl0x/com4mt ggxwrOoGqFWq1fxSCq7Ao5/qxbxH4iksGMP84= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.10.199 with SMTP id k7mr23847530igb.25.1327020593302; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.70 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:49:53 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: New minor mode toggling in V24 From: Frozenlock To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:42:16 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:49:57 -0000 Dear GNU Emacs developers, I've noticed that I can no longer use the form (some-minor-mode) to toggle a minor mode on and off in a function. The function's documentation now says "If called from Lisp, enable the mode if ARG is omitted or nil." My understanding of Lisp would have led me into thinking that a mode is on when true and off when nil. Of course, I'm sure there's a good reason for this, such as the "toggling" behavior. However, that a function could behave differently when called interactively violates the principle of least astonishment. _Especially_ for functions used as often as modes. If only it was that... Now to toggle a mode inside a function, I do something like this: (some-minor-mode (when some-minor-mode-variable) -1) Yet, some modes do not name the some-minor-mode-variable the same as the mode itself, making the action of toggling a mode a one of a kind, built only for this mode. Could minor-modes function behave the same when called by a function as they would if called interactively? I believe The toggling would be easier to understand for everyone (at least for myself). ARG nil --> toggle ARG 1 --> on ARG -1 --> off Thank you for your time, Christian Fortin From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 19 22:02:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro4ka-00038M-Jb for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:02:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47904) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro4kY-00036A-67 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:02:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro4kW-0007hA-0B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:02:46 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:57440) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro4kV-0007h2-MO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:02:43 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98E49707DE; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:02:40 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9404D1A32C6; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:02:40 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:02:40 +0900 Message-ID: <87y5t35b5b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:02:46 -0000 Paul Eggert writes: > Use of ` for Lisp backquotes, shell backquotes, etc., would > be undisturbed, of course. The only change would be for > when we're quoting something in English text. "Of course" is easy for a human to say; do you have code to implement it automatically? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 00:00:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro6aV-0000Vf-14 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:00:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43454) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6aS-0000VZ-Gx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:00:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6aR-0004bp-0B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:00:28 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:56913) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6aQ-0004bj-Kl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:00:26 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 05:00:25 -0000 Received: from 178-190-76-73.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO localhost) [178.190.76.73] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 06:00:25 +0100 X-Authenticated: #54312696 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19JeVdXnGxJ/S/Wl5p6YlCNoCBh5B8CJhGC1t/8ml 9SdaHM+9/IRWI/ Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:00:22 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20120120.060022.312018251.wl@gnu.org> To: eliz@gnu.org Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated From: Werner LEMBERG In-Reply-To: <83pqef4nrx.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> <83pqef4nrx.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.4rc1 on Emacs 24.0.92.1 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:00:29 -0000 >> Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign >> languages, does she? > > Probably not, but then why does a German user need a lesson on how > to type German on her keyboard? It is not too uncommon that German users have a US keyboard because they are programming a lot. The characters [ ] { } are really awkward to type on a German keyboard. > Is a situation where a native German speaker learns to use Emacs on > a machine that doesn't already support German input on the OS level > anything but very rare? Well, on my GNU/Linux box, the Quail input methods for German offered by Emacs are better than SCIM. One main reason is that the latter disables the use of a `.XCompose' file, which is very bad for me. I don't know whether the successor of SCIM (I forgot its name) has fixed this. Regardless of the keyboard and input method issues, there are still three dominant encodings used in Germany and Austria, namely latin-1, windows-1252, and utf-8, and I consider it important that a user knows how to force an encoding in case Emacs fails to recognize it properly. As I said, the MULE section can be certainly improved :-) Werner From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 00:12:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro6mV-0001yi-1I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:12:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53938) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6mS-0001yc-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:12:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6mQ-0005vU-Pz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:12:52 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:58908) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro6mQ-0005vI-KH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:12:50 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so117028lag.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OhIUMIn0Cg+OrAIt5xj0gRyJaboC2DANxBLe2mPTIV4=; b=Nlhs4ieWv2IwsImI62l11aUmrIc7YksSlV1reGU6VaJxGTrosNiiAXy4Cu1/Df4EWH v8JYhRljL7MZoHycC0Gfg625p7f0YU1Xz3KlJcLKhqYwgSTNkNvJUlAuNgcInrVsZ6G+ Y5CXoX9A6/ggLlH9lDw8rTNDdmXJZqMIruKpA= Received: by 10.112.39.138 with SMTP id p10mr7156826lbk.98.1327036369332; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:12:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: snogglethorpe@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.165 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:12:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Miles Bader Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:12:08 +0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aIXJUrYixoCAMqe8pe-QiqTWm7Y Message-ID: Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors To: Ken Raeburn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: Emacs Dev X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:12:53 -0000 2012/1/20 Ken Raeburn : > My "instincts" have long been to interpret "word" as "identifier or > keyword" in programming modes, to the point of customizing the > syntax tables at startup to make "_" a word component. Not for > regular expressions, but for word-motion commands; I like the fact > that I can skip over one identifier with M-f no matter how many > underscores it contains -- string_to_widget, stringToWidget, > string2widget, and stringtowidget are all treated the same. It's > also more useful in constructing keyboard macros that kill-word > identifiers and later yank them from the kill ring; typing in a > regexp search would be much more annoying. Emacs contains convenient commands to do exactly those things regardless of word-syntax: C-M-f (forward-sexp), C-M-k (kill-sexp) etc. Obviously these commands are even _more_ "reliable" in that sense because they work the same in _all_ programming modes, and don't depend on user-customization. So when editing in a programming-mode buffer, one can use whichever unit is most suited for the job: moving over/killing/etc _symbols_ if that's what one wants to do, but allowing convenient editing of words within symbols when _that's_ the goal -- and in my experience, I very often want to the latter, even when programming (which is why lua-mode drives me crazy). One really can have the best of all worlds: convenience, reliability, consistency, flexibility ... but only if modes don't randomly screw around with syntax... For instance, I want to write a new function "mypackage_frob_numnum". I copy an existing function "mypackage_snort_numnum", and change "frob" to "snort" ... but in lua-mode the hardwired-into-my-fingers method of doing this doesn't work, I have to hit C-f a bunch of times (typically only _after_ trying to use M-f and having it do the wrong thing)... > I haven't made the customization yet at my new (well, ~2 years) job > -- but that's because our coding standards use > camelCaseAndNoUnderscores so the word-motion commands already work > on identifiers and not on (English) words. (Though I've been > dealing with Linux code lately, so it may be time to make the > change.) If I often wanted to deal with the individual English > words making up an identifier, the handling of underscore wouldn't > be enough to make Emacs work correctly. [There are actually modes which make word-commands respect "STuDlyCapS" though...] > I realize I'm much closer to the power-user end of the spectrum than > most typical users, but among those heavily using programming modes, > is this such a strange mind-set? Wellllllll.... it does seem like a "power-user," and especially a programmer, would be most likely to know about and use Emacs' programming-specialized movement commands ..... :] -miles --=20 Cat is power. =A0Cat is peace. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 01:23:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro7t5-0008TK-JS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:23:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro7t2-0008TD-Ju for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:23:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro7t1-0005ll-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:23:44 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:55782) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro7t1-0005da-9F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:23:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2579CA60006; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:23:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jf4h1B2LwStm; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA324A60001; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:23:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F190866.4070806@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:23:34 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <87y5t35b5b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <87y5t35b5b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:23:45 -0000 On 01/19/12 19:02, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > "Of course" is easy for a human to say; do you have code to implement > it automatically? No, it will require a human-assisted pass over the sources, to determine which instances of ` are for quoting English text, and which are for other purposes. This can be partly automated, but in general some human judgment is required to change the quoting style to one that's recommended by the GNU coding standards. I've done this for other GNU projects; it wasn't that much work. I expect Emacs will be somewhat harder, but it won't be too hard. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 01:48:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro8HI-0003DZ-ME for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:48:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39496) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8HB-00032s-Hp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:48:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8HA-0000E3-7F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:48:41 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:48350) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8H9-0000De-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:48:40 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY300800480YA00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:48:38 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY3008GP491A3D0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:48:38 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:48:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-reply-to: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83fwfa50oq.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:48:46 -0000 > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > On 01/19/12 09:22, Drew Adams wrote: > > `...' is an Emacs doc & UI convention, not simply a "coding stand= ard". >=20 > For user interfaces it would be better if Emacs quoted > =93like this=94 or =91like this=92 (i.e., using directed > quote marks) in the typical case where these quote marks > are supported. Before we go that way, we will need to make sure the closing quote mark behaves like ' does, wrt syntax (and thus word-level cursor movement commands). Currently it doesn't. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 01:54:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro8N4-0004mc-NL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:54:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56147) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8N2-0004mB-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:54:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8N1-00013T-MR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:54:44 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:49989) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8N1-00013P-Ee; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:54:43 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY3008004IRZ200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:54:42 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY3008174J5I590@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:54:42 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:54:41 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: TUTORIAL.de updated In-reply-to: <20120120.060022.312018251.wl@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Werner LEMBERG Message-id: <83ehuu50em.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120119.140203.338008870.wl@gnu.org> <83pqef4nrx.fsf@gnu.org> <20120120.060022.312018251.wl@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:54:45 -0000 > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:00:22 +0100 (CET) > Cc: parozusa@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Werner LEMBERG > > > >> Well, a typical US user doesn't need to know how to enter foreign > >> languages, does she? > > > > Probably not, but then why does a German user need a lesson on how > > to type German on her keyboard? > > It is not too uncommon that German users have a US keyboard because > they are programming a lot. The characters [ ] { } are really awkward > to type on a German keyboard. Those awkward characters don't appear in the tutorial, and we certainly don't ask the apprentice to type them as part of her working on the tutorial lessons. > > Is a situation where a native German speaker learns to use Emacs on > > a machine that doesn't already support German input on the OS level > > anything but very rare? > > Well, on my GNU/Linux box, the Quail input methods for German offered > by Emacs are better than SCIM. One main reason is that the latter > disables the use of a `.XCompose' file, which is very bad for me. I > don't know whether the successor of SCIM (I forgot its name) has fixed > this. Emacs makes many things easier and better. That doesn't yet mean we need to put all of them, or even some of them, in the tutorial. > Regardless of the keyboard and input method issues, there are still > three dominant encodings used in Germany and Austria, namely latin-1, > windows-1252, and utf-8, and I consider it important that a user knows > how to force an encoding in case Emacs fails to recognize it properly. With the current Emacs, I don't think the user needs that knowledge as badly as it was needed in v20.x or 21.x. It might be that this section was a must 10 or 8 years ago, but I think nowadays it just gets in the way. > As I said, the MULE section can be certainly improved :-) I submit that MULE is not tutorial stuff. So let's agree to disagree, and let Stefan and Chong make the decision about this. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 02:12:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro8dy-0006Wt-MB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:12:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48561) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8dv-0006V7-HB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:12:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8du-00033j-7M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:12:11 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:48980) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro8ds-00033R-Ns; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:12:08 -0500 Received: by qadc11 with SMTP id c11so214330qad.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr31759925qap.9.1327043528043; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.158] (c-66-31-202-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [66.31.202.94]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eb5sm4780727qab.10.2012.01.19.23.12.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:12:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Ken Raeburn In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:12:05 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <73D59FE1-CE29-4A63-8597-94A661DFD757@raeburn.org> References: To: Miles Bader X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 Cc: Emacs Dev X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:12:13 -0000 On Jan 20, 2012, at 00:12, Miles Bader wrote: > Emacs contains convenient commands to do exactly those things > regardless of word-syntax: C-M-f (forward-sexp), C-M-k (kill-sexp) > etc. Obviously these commands are even _more_ "reliable" in that > sense because they work the same in _all_ programming modes, and don't > depend on user-customization. I actually use some of them frequently when dealing with parenthesized = lists like argument lists=85 but I guess for some reason I don't think = of them when I'm working with a single identifier or keyword. Without = the parens or some opening delimiter, I guess it just doesn't say = "s-expression" to me; time to do some retraining I guess=85. It's not immediately obvious looking at the description of forward-sexp, = though, that it's really suitable for other modes. For example, it = refers to a "balanced expression (sexp)", which doesn't tell me very = well what to expect if the cursor is pointing at "int" or "return" = (which aren't expressions) or "sizeof x" (which is an expression only if = you include both words). The help message says it comes out of lisp.el, = which is not encouraging if I'm in C mode; I'd half expect it to assume = Lisp comment syntax or not work with braces. (I'm not saying it doesn't = work; I know it does. I'm saying the description could be improved. = But not by me at this hour.) And now that I'm taking a fresh look at the s-expression bindings I = should be using more, I want eval-last-sexp in C mode to evaluate C = expressions. :-) > [There are actually modes which make word-commands respect > "STuDlyCapS" though=85] If they're minor modes suitable for use in conjunction with programming = modes, that might be suitable, yes. >> I realize I'm much closer to the power-user end of the spectrum than >> most typical users, but among those heavily using programming modes, >> is this such a strange mind-set? >=20 > Wellllllll.... it does seem like a "power-user," and especially a > programmer, would be most likely to know about and use Emacs' > programming-specialized movement commands ..... :] *ahem* Yeah, I guess you got me there=85 I do use some of them, but = after 20+ years I guess I've developed some habits that give me blind = spots to some places where I should be using them. Okay, I'm = convinced.... Ken= From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 02:49:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Ro9Dw-000219-An for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:49:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39243) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro9Ds-0001zp-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:49:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro9Dp-0007JJ-Uo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:49:20 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:60567 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ro9Dp-0007J6-L1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:49:17 -0500 Received: (qmail 41692 invoked by uid 3782); 20 Jan 2012 07:49:12 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9556A0B.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.106.11]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:49:10 +0100 Received: (qmail 3233 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jan 2012 07:49:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:49:22 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:49:22 -0000 Hello, Paul. On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 03:08:26PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/19/12 09:22, Drew Adams wrote: > > `...' is an Emacs doc & UI convention, not simply a "coding standard". > For user interfaces it would be better if Emacs quoted > ?like this? or ?like this? (i.e., using directed > quote marks) in the typical case where these quote marks > are supported. Reading your mail across an SSH link with my ISP, I see these quote marks as an inverted "?". The same in mutt, where I am currently typing, the same when I load it into Emacs. > Quoting `like this' is no longer appropriate, since modern displays > typically don't render ` and ' symmetrically, and it confuses new > users when Emacs gives unusual interpretations to ` and '. I think if ` and ' confuse new users, they perhaps should direct their modest talents to a less demanding editor. ;-) Does anybody really have trouble with a new style of quoting marks, assuming that they can actually see them? I never had trouble with, for example, and (apologies if anybody can't see these. They're double angle bracket quote marks.) I run Emacs on a Linux tty. It's always been a requirement of Emacs that it run OK in this environment. > One way to address this would be to prefer directed > quote marks within the Emacs source code; the surrounding > technology should recognize these quotes and do the right > thing when displaying diagnostics on ASCII-only platforms. What about displaying Elisp source code on ASCII-only platforms? > Use of ` for Lisp backquotes, shell backquotes, etc., would > be undisturbed, of course. The only change would be for > when we're quoting something in English text. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 03:46:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoA6p-0003SF-96 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:46:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51418) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoA6i-0003RS-9v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:46:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoA6e-0006rT-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:46:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:34956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoA6d-0006r6-Mc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:45:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D41A60006; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:45:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gfMa8x00kl6W; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FCA9A60008; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:45:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:45:46 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> In-Reply-To: <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:46:06 -0000 On 01/19/12 23:49, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > What about displaying Elisp source code on ASCII-only platforms? This is not a new problem. The Elisp source code in the Emacs trunk currently has many non-ASCII characters. Although most of these are in the modules that deal with international characters, there are many instances in otherwise-ordinary code, for example, the identifier color-cie-=CE=B5 in lisp/color.el, and the message containing the string "the =E2=80=98+=E2=80=99 in this last example" in lisp/org/org-bibtex.el. Despite the above, one can get lots of useful work done in an ASCII-only environment when editing the Emacs source code. This would continue to be true even if Emacs used directed quotes in the source code more oft= en. > Reading your mail across an SSH link with my ISP, I see these quote > marks as an inverted "?". The same in mutt, where I am currently > typing, the same when I load it into Emacs. Yes, that's the default behavior if one is using the C locale. These days, though, it's typically nicer to use a locale like en_US.utf8 when developing Emacs code. This works across an SSH link on a Linux terminal -- I just now tried it, and the above non-ASCII examples worked fine. Although ASCII-only environments still exist, they're becoming less important for Emacs development. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 04:24:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoAhw-0003LX-QN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:24:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33739) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoAhp-0003LM-Pa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:24:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoAhl-00047M-9J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:24:21 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54346) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoAhl-00047A-0c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:24:17 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY300A00BGCK500@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:24:15 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.115.9]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY300AJABG5F330@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:24:06 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:24:06 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-reply-to: <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:24:27 -0000 > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:45:46 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Although ASCII-only environments still exist, they're becoming less > important for Emacs development. Not very long ago, some people here seemed to think otherwise: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00445.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00447.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00451.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00518.html From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 05:02:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoBIJ-0000gu-RE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59125) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBIE-0000f6-6w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBI9-0002HM-MN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:01:58 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:50249) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBI9-0002GU-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:01:53 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 10:01:50 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.127]) [62.47.50.127] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 11:01:50 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/tk3s7RYvtL/eClH/RGjx9rCqu0UUIjaFmQwyNto KNiG5xA9TxGRkQ Message-ID: <4F193B8D.9070209@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:01:49 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbXkgQ29tcG9zdGVsbGE=?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> In-Reply-To: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:02:02 -0000 > First, `mark-active' save was missing in the `window-state-get' > function. Second, `window-state-put' restore the mark without taking > into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use > `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restore the > active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in > restored buffer. > > Please, review it or merge it, Looks good to me. I shall install this in a couple of days if no one objects. Thanks, martin From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 05:02:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoBIT-00011g-VL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59326) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBIP-0000ww-4E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBIG-0002LR-Sh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:08 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:60065) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoBIG-0002Kz-E7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:02:00 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 10:01:59 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.127]) [62.47.50.127] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 11:01:59 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19ZcAo7oi1ZtGwc3/nVpQnq9jgjQ9c1V8YiQSJ97Q Kbltrnn1DK0O7K Message-ID: <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:01:57 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbXkgQ29tcG9zdGVsbGE=?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> In-Reply-To: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:02:12 -0000 > When using window hscroll (toggle-truncate-lines on a long lines > buffer), windmove misbehaves. I mean : with the following window > configuration : > > +------+-----+ > | | | > | | 2 | > | 1 +-----+ > | | | > | | 3 | > +------+-----+ > > and with the very long lines buffer as current buffer of window 3 and point > to the end of a line, `windmove-up' selects the window 1 instead of the > window 2. Could you kindly provide a simple scenario to reproduce this. Also could you please check whether `window-in-direction' suffers from the same problem? Thanks, martin From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 06:50:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoCzJ-0000Je-61 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:50:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57392) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoC3V-0002CD-CR for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:50:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoC3U-00046N-63 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:50:49 -0500 Received: from sam.nabble.com ([216.139.236.26]:54750) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoC3U-00046H-2D for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:50:48 -0500 Received: from isper.nabble.com ([192.168.236.156]) by sam.nabble.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RoC3T-0002Lk-05 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:50:47 -0800 Message-ID: <33173596.post@talk.nabble.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:50:46 -0800 (PST) From: egnarts-ms To: Emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: indentation of functions inside flet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Nabble-From: egnartsms@gmail.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 216.139.236.26 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:50:30 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:50:50 -0000 Function definitions established by "flet", "flet*" and "labels" are not aligned (indented) the same way as those established with usual "defun". Instead, certainly, they are indented according to what the function name specifies, like the following: (flet ((some-func (a b) (* a b))) (body-form-1) (body-form-2) ...) In most cases function names (like "some-func" in this example) do not have the "lisp-indent-function" symprop attached, and even if they happen to have--that is also not what we want. So it would be nice if Lisp mode indented such function definitions like defuns. I wonder, has anyone cared about this before me (I'm sure someone has) and are there any improvements to the Lisp mode available ? (I managed to introduce a change to "lisp-indent-function" function which does the job, but I'm not sure whether my patch can be considered a decent one.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/indentation-of-functions-inside-flet-tp33173596p33173596.html Sent from the Emacs - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 07:13:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoDLK-0001lL-Tt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54667) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDLD-0001iO-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDL7-0001nR-DX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:11 -0500 Received: from eagle.jhcloos.com ([207.210.242.212]:34467) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDL7-0001nE-86 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:05 -0500 Received: by eagle.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 4A18340182; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:12:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=eagle; t=1327061583; bh=T5rjiaeNzoI0vCarnakaZNMwGRIm2KzfJ2VW6kSx15U=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yAQxuZqswOLnfRE7U9CR9+wxP3hMiWn+ZAEItv1XXoEZK6iAzekMM+DPJ+9wa7wly js2DcUj3qnzG2M82z+SnKwF16iyROEKxO5iWFqd07j8ljO69WQULzh2EMAE29ixCMQ o+y4Gx8gCNlVzaeYpBv+Lb/0jhD3GxIUFnYZTeDo= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 241B136004C; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:01:29 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:49:22 +0000") References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2012 James Cloos OpenPGP: ED7DAEA6; url=http://jhcloos.com/public_key/0xED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:01:29 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Hashcash: 1:30:120120:emacs-devel@gnu.org::xr/xz3suIt2nS/SR:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000l38cf X-Hashcash: 1:30:120120:acm@muc.de::ddECw3vn63MCBk9I:000000QQQMG X-Hashcash: 1:30:120120:eggert@cs.ucla.edu::vRI8EWIMn37xYCCw:0000000000000000000000000000000000000000002vyLy X-Hashcash: 1:30:120120:ulm@gentoo.org::USMTXzQoE1EX80Nt:00IosHV X-Hashcash: 1:30:120120:drew.adams@oracle.com::qCJquMicxXVF9hrQ:000000000000000000000000000000000000000plAOr Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 207.210.242.212 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 'Ulrich Mueller' , Paul Eggert , Drew Adams X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:13:16 -0000 Noting that ASCII ` always was a grave accent, and never a quote, it seems that the proper fix for TeXinfo is to add one or more @foo commands to cover quotations which are not already covered. Adding @quote{} as a generic mechanism would be the starting point, to specify locale-specific quoting. Those locale details can be found in the glibc src. Separating semantics from presentation in document sources is a beneficial goal. Atoms with more specific semantics could be added in the furture. (As a side note, Knuth(, et al?)=E2=80=99s choice of `' and ``'' instead = of a \command{} is one of the *very* few details I think he (they?) got wrong. I presume that TeXinfo=E2=80=99s usage derives from TeX=E2=80=99s= .) (It was most tempting to use =CE=88=CE=BB=CE=BB=CE=B5=CE=BD=CE=B9=CE=BA =CE= =A4=CE=B5=CE=A7 instead of Latin TeX. :) (I hope =C2=BB=CE=88=CE=BB=CE=BB=CE=B5=CE=BD=CE=B9=CE=BA=C2=AB is the cor= rect declension.) (And apologies for the abundance of parenthetical postscripts. ;) -JimC --=20 James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 07:13:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoDLx-00024t-2T for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54919) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDLu-000249-Qs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDLp-0001xN-4v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:54 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:44566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDLo-0001wx-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:13:49 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q0KCDbtR004916; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:13:37 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0KCDahw017208; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:13:36 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0KCDa71017207; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:13:36 +0100 From: Ulrich Mueller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-ID: <20249.23152.15289.5517@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:13:36 +0100 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks In-Reply-To: <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.3.4 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de id q0KCDbtR004916 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:13:55 -0000 >>>>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Paul Eggert wrote: > The Elisp source code in the Emacs trunk currently has many > non-ASCII characters. Although most of these are in the modules that > deal with international characters, there are many instances in > otherwise-ordinary code, for example, the identifier color-cie-=CE=B5 i= n > lisp/color.el, [...] Hey, can we finally have =E2=80=9C=CE=BB=E2=80=9D instead of that clumsy = =E2=80=9Clambda=E2=80=9D then? :-) But seriously, I'd have expected that at least identifiers would stay ASCII-only. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 07:45:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoDqC-0008Ry-2s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:45:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36951) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDq8-0008PV-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:45:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDq2-0007qk-9z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:45:08 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:39622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoDq2-0007qO-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:45:02 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so346462dan.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:45:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R5rGFvd4NZHJmJ+X+RvwFCnwrzw4vcRNhNqu9qYo7Jo=; b=jOar5OZPWOIiBizBRP2g2P2KdS84lmtjbdDqHqESNg4pT7wel7gGtf+BeKM+LnlZPN TR38/Xt1jTaV0mkjTZ2NNOHUT5zlARgihp1/3hnAHQ0ilxHRBFqMe4x0KmltbJmG6yRw U4JC59j6pGoDbnpXRDeVnn8WpXvZp9V0QS2+M= Received: by 10.68.122.202 with SMTP id lu10mr35669950pbb.101.1327063500126; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:45:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.12.15 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:44:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20249.23152.15289.5517@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <20249.23152.15289.5517@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:44:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: quotation marks To: Ulrich Mueller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:45:09 -0000 On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 13:13, Ulrich Mueller wrote: > Hey, can we finally have =E2=80=9C=CE=BB=E2=80=9D instead of that clumsy = =E2=80=9Clambda=E2=80=9D then? :-) Thanks, "(defalias '=CE=BB 'lambda)" just entered my .emacs ;-) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 08:43:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoEkC-0004hN-P8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:43:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35453) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEk6-0004hG-BH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:43:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEk0-0008A7-HU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:42:58 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:47890) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEk0-00089y-DZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:42:52 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAOBuGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrX+BBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLLQcSFBgNJIgPuGmIfoMoBIg8mnCEVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,542,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157766255" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 08:42:50 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 484055946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:42:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Message-ID: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:42:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9my?= Compostella"'s message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:43:28 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:43:03 -0000 > into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use > `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restore the > active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in > restored buffer. `push-mark' is wrong if nothing happened between window-state-get and window-state-put. And the mark & mark-active are buffer-local but not window-local. If we window-state-get in a frame which shows the same buffer several times, window-state-put would end up pushing the same mark several times. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 08:55:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoEvx-0000t0-Lx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36653) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEvo-0000nZ-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEvn-0001Yb-6M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:04 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:26135) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoEvn-0001YS-08 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:03 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAD1xGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgCBBoFyAQEEAScvIwULCzQSFBgNJIgPuF6MJgSIPJpwhFY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,542,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157767755" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 08:55:01 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5376E5946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:01 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Frozenlock Subject: Re: New minor mode toggling in V24 Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:55:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: (frozenlock@gmail.com's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:49:53 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:55:11 -0000 > ARG nil --> toggle > ARG 1 --> on > ARG -1 --> off That's what happened in the past and we changed it, so clearly we're not going back there. Toggling non-interactively is a very rare need. But you can do it with (foo-mode 'toggle) if you don't like (foo-mode (if foo-mode -1 1)). Stefan PS: In case you wonder about the reason for the change, it's for (add-hook 'foo-mode-hook 'bar-mode), eliminating the "need" for those otherwise redundant turn-on-foo-mode. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 09:05:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoF6N-0003Ld-Nj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56246) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoF6I-0003LD-KL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoF6C-0003W7-DC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:54 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:9791) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoF6C-0003W1-Aj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:48 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EALNzGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDDoR2qHyBBoFyAQEEASMzIwULCxgCAhgOAgIUGA0kiA+mdJFjgS+JYYEWBIg8mnCEAVU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,542,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157768888" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 09:05:47 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D5C055946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:46 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:05:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:05:58 -0000 Paul said: > For user interfaces it would be better if Emacs quoted =E2=80=9Clike this= =E2=80=9D or > =E2=80=98like this=E2=80=99 (i.e., using directed quote marks) in the typ= ical case > where these quote marks are supported. I actually much prefer symmetry, the way it was with pre-unicode X fonts. E.g. =E2=80=9Bmyfoo=E2=80=99. > One way to address this would be to prefer directed > quote marks within the Emacs source code; the surrounding > technology should recognize these quotes and do the right > thing when displaying diagnostics on ASCII-only platforms. One other problem (besides display) with directed quote marks is that they're not as easy/convenient to type. Eli wrote: > Before we go that way, we will need to make sure the closing quote > mark behaves like ' does, wrt syntax (and thus word-level cursor > movement commands). Currently it doesn't. While we'd probably want to fine tune this part, I don't think it's a serious problem. After all, the syntax of ' already varies depending on the major mode, so it's already not always doing the right thing (and I regularly bump into such problems where C-h f doesn't properly get the function name from the text around point because of that), and changing to directed quote marks could actually help with this problem. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 09:14:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoFED-0004kQ-1L for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:14:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48952) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFE6-0004jy-Ok for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:14:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFE0-0005Ds-Lh for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:13:58 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:38891) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFE0-0005Do-I7 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:13:52 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAAJ2GU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgCBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA+4W4wmBIg8mnCEVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,542,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157769590" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 09:13:51 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 295835946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: egnarts-ms Subject: Re: indentation of functions inside flet Message-ID: References: <33173596.post@talk.nabble.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:13:51 -0500 In-Reply-To: <33173596.post@talk.nabble.com> (egnarts-ms's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:50:46 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: Emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:14:04 -0000 > So it would be nice if Lisp mode indented such function definitions like > defuns. I wonder, has anyone cared about this before me (I'm sure someone > has) and are there any improvements to the Lisp mode available ? It would be nice if CL macros were indented better, I agree. Note that the way to do it is to put the bulk of the code in cl(-*).el and only change lisp-mode.el so as to provide hooks that CL needs. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 09:17:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoFHO-0005aC-KO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56578) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFHJ-0005Y9-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFHF-0005m8-0l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:17 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:49480) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFHE-0005m3-UP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:12 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAAd3GU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgCBBoFyAQEFHTkjEAs0EhQYDSTAa4wmBIg8mnCEVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,542,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157769839" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 09:17:09 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 1B2D25946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Miles Bader Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Miles Bader's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:32:57 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: Lua mailing list , emacs-devel@gnu.org, immerrr again X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:21 -0000 > [lua-mode redefines "_" as a word-component; it shouldn't, as it > really messes with users' instincts, and makes Emacs commands less > useful. Historically this was often done by language-modes as an BTW, this reminds me: why do word-based movement commands even care about the syntax-table? I understand that it's the way they're currently implemented, but AFAICT we don't actually want their behavior to depend on the major mode, do we? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 10:13:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoGA6-0006KQ-70 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:13:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34267) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoG9z-0006Ip-BP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:13:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoG9t-0006Br-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:13:47 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:43565) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoG9t-00067i-ES for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:13:41 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 15:13:39 -0000 Received: from 62-47-39-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.39.87]) [62.47.39.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 16:13:39 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18NDZFVHqMNlXAorZr8aDhh/HCBh/vt41BVYeMv1E 0P5NhpzZeCVYKz Message-ID: <4F1984A2.5060900@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:13:38 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:13:52 -0000 > `push-mark' is wrong if nothing happened between window-state-get and > window-state-put. > And the mark & mark-active are buffer-local but not window-local. > If we window-state-get in a frame which shows the same buffer several > times, window-state-put would end up pushing the same mark several times. We could refuse pushing the mark when current and old position are the same. But obviously pushing the mark from a non-current buffer is not very reasonable either. IIRC all I tried was to emulate the behavior for window configurations. What would you suggest instead? Not save the mark in the first place? martin From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 10:52:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoGlK-0007hq-4a for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:52:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoGlE-0007h3-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:52:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoGlC-0005z8-CK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:52:16 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:51972) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoGlC-0005yu-7E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:52:14 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0KFq30b002690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:52:04 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0KFq2Zs019268 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:52:02 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0KFq1Tq013122; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:52:01 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.44.241) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:52:01 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" , "'Ulrich Mueller'" References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <20249.23152.15289.5517@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Subject: RE: quotation marks Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:51:58 -0800 Message-ID: <6A7AF720D9EF4580800013DB531E801C@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczXcVQmrAMx5wrKTUGDmrQ5PXt4fgAGNuwg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F198DA4.0125,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: 'Alan Mackenzie' , 'Paul Eggert' , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:52:20 -0000 > > Hey, can we finally have "?" instead of that clumsy > > "lambda" then? :-) > > Thanks, "(defalias '? 'lambda)" just entered my .emacs ;-) Good idea. And for display of existing `lambda' occurrencences: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyLambda http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/pretty-lambdada.el From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 11:01:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoGts-0001ld-QY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:01:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39740) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFbO-00072Y-6v for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:38:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFbI-0000Vb-ET for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:38:02 -0500 Received: from sam.nabble.com ([216.139.236.26]:54461) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFbI-0000VX-9b for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:37:56 -0500 Received: from isper.nabble.com ([192.168.236.156]) by sam.nabble.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RoFbH-0006rQ-DU for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:37:55 -0800 Message-ID: <33174731.post@talk.nabble.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:37:55 -0800 (PST) From: egnarts-ms To: Emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: indentation of functions inside flet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Nabble-From: egnartsms@gmail.com References: <33173596.post@talk.nabble.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 216.139.236.26 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:01:10 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:38:06 -0000 Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> So it would be nice if Lisp mode indented such function definitions like >> defuns. I wonder, has anyone cared about this before me (I'm sure >> someone >> has) and are there any improvements to the Lisp mode available ? > > It would be nice if CL macros were indented better, I agree. > Note that the way to do it is to put the bulk of the code in cl(-*).el and > only change lisp-mode.el so as to provide hooks that CL needs. > > > Stefan > Basically, what is wrong with the current indentation mechanism is its short-sightedness. We have a possibility to specify how to indent macro forms, by attaching "lisp-indent-function" property to macro symbols, usually with (declare (indent ...)) declaration. But the key moment is this: indentation analysis is limited to only the immediate enclosing list. Once we want to indent at some point, we find out what is the innermost containing sexp, then we take its car and analyze it. So the car of immediate parent fully determines the indentation pattern. No further upward search is performed. For most cases this behavior is perfectly OK, but, as we see, for "flet"-like forms this is not the case. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/indentation-of-functions-inside-flet-tp33173596p33174731.html Sent from the Emacs - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 11:11:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoH3x-0005Fw-Ht for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51638) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH3v-0005Fq-1K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH3p-0001uc-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:35 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:63879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH3p-0001uW-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:29 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAM2QGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgSBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA+4UYwmBIg8mnCEVg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,543,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157782422" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 11:11:27 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 730FE5946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:27 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Message-ID: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F1984A2.5060900@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:11:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F1984A2.5060900@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:13:38 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:11:36 -0000 >> `push-mark' is wrong if nothing happened between window-state-get and >> window-state-put. >> And the mark & mark-active are buffer-local but not window-local. >> If we window-state-get in a frame which shows the same buffer several >> times, window-state-put would end up pushing the same mark several times. > We could refuse pushing the mark when current and old position are the > same. But obviously pushing the mark from a non-current buffer is not > very reasonable either. > IIRC all I tried was to emulate the behavior for window configurations. > What would you suggest instead? Not save the mark in the first place? I'm not completely sure. The current code doesn't seem that bad since, as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of window-configurations. So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the current behavior is a problem. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 11:17:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoH9H-0006RZ-6S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41821) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH9A-0006QO-Ol for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH99-00037V-Bh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:00 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]:43603) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH99-00037C-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:16:59 -0500 Received: by wgbdt11 with SMTP id dt11so1125683wgb.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:16:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=yWQe5wFhHeNq89TxlBtftDAwcOwrOnRXz22ZJj3VL34=; b=SqHi+MkV7Ms6nyhUt0wTAPBFv4r4/CsHUv1PaBCYapaKK6ltMdqBZXaHn2ZEQNhKdg CHhw/221CQX9xCs7T48HXWYh+4A/V9AUAexFnKSthZcV9BZ/o+WFhDzzfJxTj3zR4TWC 6yyjrrIIYwNgqTBc6EyDJqT5zVNwgt+FAgIS0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.106.130 with SMTP id gu2mr52859553wib.6.1327076217732; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.1.73 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:16:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:16:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation From: Sylvain Rousseau To: martin rudalics Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2354d58c404b04b6f802f6 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.41 Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:17:05 -0000 --e89a8f2354d58c404b04b6f802f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For example: emacs -Q --eval "(progn (toggle-truncate-lines 1) \ (split-window-right) \ (other-window 1) \ (split-window-below) \ (insert \"blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah\"))" Then try to windmove-down, it moves left! :/ window-in-direction seems to be doing fine anyway! Sylvain. --e89a8f2354d58c404b04b6f802f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For example:

emacs -Q --eval "(progn (toggle-truncate-lines 1) = \
(split-window-right) \
(other-window 1) \
(split-window-below) \=
(insert \"blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah= blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah\"))&q= uot;

Then try to windmove-down, it moves left! :/

window-in-direction= seems to be doing fine anyway!

Sylvain.
--e89a8f2354d58c404b04b6f802f6-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 11:17:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoHA3-0007rd-Rz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42344) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH9w-0007mz-O1 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH9v-0003QP-KN for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:48 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:60594) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoH9v-0003QG-Dv for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:47 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAEeTGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgaBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAs0EhQYDSSID7hXjCYEiDyacIRW X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,543,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157783595" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 11:17:46 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 370A45946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:46 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: egnarts-ms Subject: Re: indentation of functions inside flet Message-ID: References: <33173596.post@talk.nabble.com> <33174731.post@talk.nabble.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:17:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: <33174731.post@talk.nabble.com> (egnarts-ms's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:37:55 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:17:52 -0000 >>> So it would be nice if Lisp mode indented such function definitions like >>> defuns. I wonder, has anyone cared about this before me (I'm sure >>> someone >>> has) and are there any improvements to the Lisp mode available ? >> It would be nice if CL macros were indented better, I agree. >> Note that the way to do it is to put the bulk of the code in cl(-*).el and >> only change lisp-mode.el so as to provide hooks that CL needs. > Basically, what is wrong with the current indentation mechanism is its > short-sightedness. I don't disagree. But all it means is that the lisp-indent-function hook is not flexible enough and needs to be spiced up, so that CL can use it to get better indentation. Maybe we can steal some code from the SLIME guys for that. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 11:53:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoHiN-0000Hc-2Z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:53:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57223) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoHiF-0000Gz-40 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:53:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoHiD-0000M0-Kw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:53:15 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:54798) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoHiD-0000Ll-B8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:53:13 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1210632obb.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:53:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=4cMVE3K7eLMEBWpDmthlHzxjoVSRJieQ1nfg5HhK+6k=; b=bjoGPIep1fbUd8EKfKezm6v2iAiC/FW+yeFJeBvKHyWMKOhksMtHvsF240FcyuR/uv kkKBv46ya9t93BnbEBbAE4DAQgXRRVudeJKwZep/RICi578gD7eG5AGLHYRra0ps31ZI n+BrsKpsrbEq1Dm9ZjMJPQjfaOhAaZD2skyNI= Received: by 10.182.76.135 with SMTP id k7mr251978obw.62.1327078392159; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:53:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:52:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:52:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04478797275be204b6f88418 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:53:21 -0000 --f46d04478797275be204b6f88418 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2012/1/20 Stefan Monnier > > into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use > > `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restore the > > active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in > > restored buffer. > > `push-mark' is wrong if nothing happened between window-state-get and > window-state-put. > I do agree but the use of set-mark leads to the lost of the potential previous mark. Maybe I could just add a control like call `push-mark' only if current if current mark is not equal to the saved one. > And the mark & mark-active are buffer-local but not window-local. > If we window-state-get in a frame which shows the same buffer several > times, window-state-put would end up pushing the same mark several times. That was more of less the subject of my previous thread ("[PATCH] window.el: Remove mark saving and restoring") that I cancel to have time to think about it a little bit more. The proposition was to remove the mark stuff (I did provide a patch for this) that looks not relevant in the `window-state-get' and `window-state-put'. However but thinking more about it I figured out that somebody could want the mark restored. > I'm not completely sure. The current code doesn't seem that bad since, > as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of > window-configurations. > So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the current > behavior is a problem. It's very simple : with the current code, when you call the `window-state-put' function, the mark is restored as active. In conclusion I think we have to make a choice: - Either, we accept the idea that the mark is restored and we should take care of its active state, avoid the previous potential mark loss and do not push-mark when the current `mark' is equal to the saved one. - Either, remove all the mark stuff from `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' functions. - Other ? I have patch almost ready for these two proposals so let me know. J=E9r=E9my --f46d04478797275be204b6f88418 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/20 Stefan Monnier <<= a href=3D"mailto:monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" target=3D"_blank">monnier@iro.um= ontreal.ca>
> into account the previously set mark(s). It looks better to use > `push-mark' instead of `set-mark'. Moreover it does not restor= e the
> active mark state which lead to an automatically active mark in
> restored buffer.

`push-mark' is wrong if nothing happened between window-state-get= and
window-state-put.
I do agree but the use of set-mark l= eads to the lost of the potential previous mark.
Maybe I could ju= st add a control like call `push-mark' only if current if current mark<= /div>
is not equal to the saved one.
=A0
And the mark & mark-active are buffer-local but not window-local.
If we window-state-get in a frame which shows the same buffer several
times, window-state-put would end up pushing the same mark several times.
That was more of less the subject of =A0my previous thread = ("[PATCH] window.el: Remove mark saving and restoring")
that I cancel to have=A0time to think about it a little bit more. The propo= sition was to remove the mark
stuff (I did provide a patch for this) that looks not relevant in the = `window-state-get' and
`window-state-put'. However but th= inking more about it I figured out that somebody could want the mark restor= ed.

List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:55:32 -0000 --14dae9399ac1d6a62204b6f88b7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sylvain, thanks saving my time :) Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related. 2012/1/20 Sylvain Rousseau > For example: > > emacs -Q --eval "(progn (toggle-truncate-lines 1) \ > (split-window-right) \ > (other-window 1) \ > (split-window-below) \ > (insert > \"blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla= hblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah\"))" > > Then try to windmove-down, it moves left! :/ > > window-in-direction seems to be doing fine anyway! > > Sylvain. > --=20 =AB Si debugger, c'est supprimer des bugs, alors programmer ne peut =EAtre = que les ajouter =BB - Edsger Dijkstra --14dae9399ac1d6a62204b6f88b7a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sylvain, thanks saving my time :)

Effectively the issue = is only windmove.el related.

2012/1/20 Sy= lvain Rousseau <t= hisirs@gmail.com>
For example:

emacs -Q --eval "(p= rogn (toggle-truncate-lines 1) \
(split-window-right) \
(other-window= 1) \
(split-window-below) \
(insert \"blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbl= ahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahb= lahblahblah\"))"

Then try to windmove-down, it moves left! :/

window-in-direction= seems to be doing fine anyway!

Sylvain.



-- =AB Si debugger, c'est supprimer des bugs, alors programmer ne peut = =EAtre que les ajouter =BB - Edsger Dijkstra
--14dae9399ac1d6a62204b6f88b7a-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 12:26:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoIEE-0003gL-5X for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:26:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37092) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIE8-0003fJ-2X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:26:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIE1-0005VO-TN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:26:12 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:30895 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIE1-0005VH-HC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:26:05 -0500 Received: (qmail 16728 invoked by uid 3782); 20 Jan 2012 17:26:02 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD951AB18.dip.t-dialin.net [217.81.171.24]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:26:01 +0100 Received: (qmail 3513 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jan 2012 17:26:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:11 +0000 To: Kentaro NAKAZAWA Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers Message-ID: <20120120172611.GA3179@acm.acm> References: <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111221105626.GA3263@acm.acm> <87ehvwxd8g.fsf@nifty.com> <20120106220806.GA3217@acm.acm> <87r4zcjrvm.fsf@nifty.com> <20120107135017.GA15873@acm.acm> <87lipjf0i5.fsf@nifty.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lipjf0i5.fsf@nifty.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: bug-cc-mode@gnu.org, Kan-Ru Chen , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:16 -0000 Hello, Kentaro. On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 10:26:10AM +0900, Kentaro NAKAZAWA wrote: > Hello, Alan. > > Could you be more specific, please - tell me which keywords weren't > > fontified, and exactly what you did for this to happen. > The screen shot was appended. (emacs -Q) OK, I got that. > action.cc.png: > http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gtkmm/3.0/gtkmm-3.0.1.tar.bz2 > gtkmm-3.0.1/gtk/gtkmm/action.cc > The method name is not fontified. > But I execute M-oM-o in function, fontified correctly. I don't see this problem, with the latest version of CC Mode (which has been committed to savannah). Maybe recent changes have solved it. Could you please try again with the latest CC Mode version. Thanks! > -- > Kentaro Nakazawa -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:01:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoImQ-0006RU-Os for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:01:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37751) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoImK-0006Pt-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:01:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoImE-00023U-68 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:01:32 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:53418) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoImD-00023F-R8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:01:25 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so1491484iad.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:01:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=g5dSifNkIELurfu9L32QC0YCSleb5zDjpMyU2NgOeo8=; b=ior525OJkMyhOhsRXaYS3HadZz/q35LPdNegzYb0uevg5tQBhIn8WsOpeU2bVFz0RL 0BGAUs3TKlwUYVCRa/BFwGhtlIr269smPC7nuSm+o5h4lvOv19sfhXQhG25e8rrLRZ6w uJXWbKPjmGyHHET7WdgwI8XPOWjAHVZAQcn3Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.186.226 with SMTP id fn2mr33710644igc.25.1327082484645; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.70 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:01:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:01:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: New minor mode toggling in V24 From: Frozenlock To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:01:36 -0000 Thank you for the answer. I do prefer to use (foo-mode 'toggle), thanks for the suggestion! Alas, this precious info isn't in the foo-mode documentation (C-h f). Unless it's somewhere else and I simply missed it, could it be added in the mode documentation? Christian On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> ARG nil --> toggle >> ARG 1 =A0 --> on >> ARG -1 =A0--> off > > That's what happened in the past and we changed it, so clearly we're not > going back there. > Toggling non-interactively is a very rare need. =A0But you can do it with > (foo-mode 'toggle) if you don't like (foo-mode (if foo-mode -1 1)). > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Stefan > > > PS: In case you wonder about the reason for the change, it's for > (add-hook 'foo-mode-hook 'bar-mode), eliminating the "need" for those > otherwise redundant turn-on-foo-mode. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:07:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoIsK-000895-Ea for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44006) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIsF-00087f-37 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIs8-0002oq-NJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:38 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:36324) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIs8-0002oc-De for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:32 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 18:07:30 -0000 Received: from 62-47-39-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.39.87]) [62.47.39.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 19:07:30 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19Z1O5IKbZZGLzToomfgpBaJIGRpkJf0Zx7DWmDo8 qPD7GqlmrgfxNj Message-ID: <4F19AD62.7090500@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:07:30 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sylvain Rousseau Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:07:43 -0000 > emacs -Q --eval "(progn (toggle-truncate-lines 1) \ > (split-window-right) \ > (other-window 1) \ > (split-window-below) \ > (insert > \"blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah\"))" > > Then try to windmove-down, it moves left! :/ Thanks. I can see it now. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:08:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoIsf-00006B-JZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:08:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIsX-0008Ua-TT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:08:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIsW-0002vo-Ph for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:57 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:35320) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIsW-0002vj-DM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:07:56 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 18:07:55 -0000 Received: from 62-47-39-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.39.87]) [62.47.39.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 19:07:55 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+hWMYO1iOhpLoFCNW9yrAMkGY2osfels8brEpoek Rwemovf01tamLo Message-ID: <4F19AD77.5000705@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:07:51 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: Sylvain Rousseau , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:08:03 -0000 > Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related. So IIUC the issue is that `windmove-reference-loc' (windmove-coord-add top-left (let ((col-row (posn-col-row (posn-at-point (window-point window) window)))) (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)) (cdr col-row))))))))) wrongly subtracts the value returned by `window-hscroll' from a column value correctly calculated by `posn-at-point' (window_box_left_offset)? In this case I think your patch is correct. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:15:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoIzg-0001kJ-Qa for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:15:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40631) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIza-0001jB-T2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:15:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIzW-0004Ai-GU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:15:14 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:34282) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoIzW-0004Ab-8n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:15:10 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1319518obb.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:15:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=i7a7rKyNzW8TR5Yld0noqEbmBnf+MYFEiBtKwY3thGI=; b=sHm4IabKOwzzgk3sU6YULWpt6/8ec0uFzm6G0skt+Np3j1OpvgNzPNYAWqfl6SGC8s hSmIZ2mMKqCCpUV3NqqrjeT27MgXaL0OjP5MyT3DdCWS4sZyIBKCnRNWY3H9SPpM5ZDa lZwRWSezhnBCfAC+p6v9v/MIMQ630eUNkw6O0= Received: by 10.182.116.38 with SMTP id jt6mr27663723obb.52.1327083309076; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:15:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:14:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F19AD77.5000705@gmx.at> References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> <4F19AD77.5000705@gmx.at> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:14:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation To: martin rudalics Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9399ac139920004b6f9a9ba X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Sylvain Rousseau , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:15:19 -0000 --14dae9399ac139920004b6f9a9ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2012/1/20 martin rudalics > > Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related. > > So IIUC the issue is that `windmove-reference-loc' > > (windmove-coord-add > top-left > (let ((col-row > (posn-col-row > (posn-at-point (window-point window) window)))) > (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)) > (cdr col-row))))))))) > > wrongly subtracts the value returned by `window-hscroll' from a column > value correctly calculated by `posn-at-point' (window_box_left_offset)? > > Yes, you're perfectly right that's my point and my patch remove this. Thanks. It's time to friday beer evening now :) --14dae9399ac139920004b6f9a9ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/20 martin rudalics <= rudalics@gmx.at>
> Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related.
So IIUC the issue is that `windmove-reference-loc'

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(windmove-coord-add
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 top-left
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (let ((col-row
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(posn-col-row
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (posn-at-point (window-point windo= w) window))))
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)= )
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (cdr col-row)))))))))

wrongly subtracts the value returned by `window-hscroll' from a column<= br> value correctly calculated by `posn-at-point' (window_box_left_offset)?=

Yes, you're perfectly right that's my poi= nt and my patch remove this.
Thanks.

It's time to friday beer evening now :)
--14dae9399ac139920004b6f9a9ba-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:25:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoJ9y-00066x-UO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39542) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJ9s-00064t-30 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJ9q-0005tk-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:52 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:40263) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJ9q-0005tg-SF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAGuwGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgiBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAs0EhQYDSSID7hbjCYEiDyacIRW X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,544,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157798927" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 13:25:49 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5CA9F5946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:49 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Message-ID: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella"'s message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:52:51 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:25:57 -0000 >> I'm not completely sure. The current code doesn't seem that bad since, >> as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of >> window-configurations. >> So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the current >> behavior is a problem. > It's very simple : with the current code, when you call the > `window-state-put' function, the mark is restored as active. That's easy to fix: use (set-marker (mark-marker)) instead of set-mark. > - Either, remove all the mark stuff from `window-state-get' and > `window-state-put' functions. That's not a bad idea, actually. Stefan PS: BTW, the "multiple push-mark" issue can be solved by saving the mark only once per buffer rather than once per window (i.e. the window-state object would have a separate list of affected buffers with their corresponding state, including the mark, not sure what else could be there). From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 13:41:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoJP4-0004v4-Ej for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:41:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33350) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJP2-0004tp-5l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:41:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJOw-0007q3-Eh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:41:32 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:63434) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoJOw-0007pu-8x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:41:26 -0500 Received: by pbdu6 with SMTP id u6so578129pbd.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:41:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qWz98HZVvji7EtnBbALenkHSLinRIcIXgdnawDGFzzs=; b=mhfKrcXbyMkYeKvM/8E7oWUqx0IzrYoOWTSO0fH7n3iDaVvx6/KZqipO2R/6T/R07r nQA4ruiQrIQR382fDTja9+LfVfqQHWM2xe33iZCbF8fjydFeGXFNPE5tvJEgJzyjcYNR 0XknfjM6+QMGeu74i2BdxhZ8/nHgZt9LE30Wc= Received: by 10.68.72.73 with SMTP id b9mr63279486pbv.67.1327084885193; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:41:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.12.15 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:40:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6A7AF720D9EF4580800013DB531E801C@us.oracle.com> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <20249.23152.15289.5517@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <6A7AF720D9EF4580800013DB531E801C@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:40:44 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: quotation marks To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert , Ulrich Mueller , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:41:33 -0000 On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 16:51, Drew Adams wrote: > Good idea. =C2=A0And for display of existing `lambda' occurrencences: Cool, thanks. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 15:17:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoKtx-0006JL-7a for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:17:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51555) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKtu-0006IX-Jf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:17:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKtt-0005Zm-KS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:17:30 -0500 Received: from fmmailgate01.web.de ([217.72.192.221]:38358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKtr-0005Yj-Fi; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:17:27 -0500 Received: from moweb001.kundenserver.de (moweb001.kundenserver.de [172.19.20.114]) by fmmailgate01.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02571A9591B8; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:17:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from snow ([217.185.137.14]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0McneT-1S5adR1Nar-00Ic0z; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:17:25 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:18:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:19:06 -0500") Message-ID: <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:TVOWgO/Y1DSQfQlQAWjxKd3TRhpGDv5BImc0VUcD1S0 rpIwJvLh6amkG+pCNrIr+khFOw2isr3sfm50aFSOgxdw3PEZix GUU2dxR2DX5N3n1JTR+YwIifAuDZAFt3CYIkQkR9gN2ubWFMdV OLgAPmyWRYe0cdrbQDhYgvnriW1M7C8Fluz8LyFdxUR+iGEewn E0qvBOpAnUAuQU4bLT+AAhxq/ajkwMya7fbLABYx0c= Sender: Michael_Heerdegen@web.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-Received-From: 217.72.192.221 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, michael_heerdegen@web.de List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:17:31 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > Could you please describe your scenario in more detail? Empty lines > have no text, so it's unclear how can you talk about "clickable text" > in that case. I'm talking about completion candidates that can be selected with the mouse. I stumbled over this problem in Icicles, but it also appears in vanilla Emacs. Try this: (completing-read "foo: " '(("aaaa") ("bbbb") ("\n") ("cccc"))) The "\n" candidate gets no visible mouse-face when you move the mouse over it in *Completions*, so the user doesn't see where to click to select it. If you try that: (completing-read "foo: " '(("a\n\nb"))) the whole area between a and b gets a mouse-face (from the left to the right border of the window), but only if the mouse is exactly over the a or the b. Such completion candidates are a bit exotic, right, but they _do_ appear in some situations. - Michael From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 15:21:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoKxY-0006yJ-AE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:21:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49463) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKxW-0006yB-9m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:21:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKxV-00065f-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:21:14 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:59533) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKxV-00065Y-4Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:21:13 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 20:21:10 -0000 Received: from p57BB97E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO detlef.gmx.de) [87.187.151.230] by mail.gmx.net (mp030) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 21:21:10 +0100 X-Authenticated: #3708877 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX191C/dRjYx1eyf0AC5MUV7Q2DjQ0ZdnmkHTdQrsG0 Ue5tvzXafDj75k From: Michael Albinus To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [PATCH] * info/tramp (File): Tweak wording for the `scpc' option. References: <83k44n4aua.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:21:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83k44n4aua.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:54:37 +0200") Message-ID: <87ehuu86s0.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Eric Hanchrow , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:21:15 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Eric Hanchrow >> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:35 -0800 >> >> +If that command succeeds silently, then you can use @option{scpc}; but >> +if it fails like >> + >> +@example >> +command-line: line 0: Bad configuration option: ControlMaster >> +@end example >> + >> +then you cannot use it. > > You want a @noindent before the last line, otherwise it will be > indented as if it were a new paragraph. That's not needed, because it is an @item of a @table. Best regards, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 15:23:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoKzK-0007jA-SU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:23:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49973) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKzI-0007j2-Gc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:23:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKzH-0006J3-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:23:04 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:40963) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoKzH-0006Iz-5c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:23:03 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2012 20:23:01 -0000 Received: from p57BB97E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO detlef.gmx.de) [87.187.151.230] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 20 Jan 2012 21:23:01 +0100 X-Authenticated: #3708877 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/6DbkhCF/6MWF8nWXT7Cpf9rV43RaFS9D79KGUxx heCTVekvLDVLTl From: Michael Albinus To: Eric Hanchrow Subject: Re: [PATCH] * info/tramp (File): Tweak wording for the `scpc' option. References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:22:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Eric Hanchrow's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:46:35 -0800") Message-ID: <87aa5i86p1.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:23:05 -0000 Eric Hanchrow writes: > ChangeLog | 4 ++++ > doc/misc/tramp.texi | 15 ++++++++++++--- > 2 files changed, 16 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) Thanks, I've committed your patch to both Emacs and Tramp repositories. Best regards, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 16:25:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoLxx-00054A-Mo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoLxs-00053F-Qq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoLxr-0007Uf-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:40 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:44546) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoLxq-0007UO-De; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:38 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EALvaGU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrgmBBoFyAQEFViMQCzQSFBgNJMBujCYEiDyacIRW X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,545,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="157817300" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 20 Jan 2012 16:25:36 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 64A5B5946E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:36 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: John Yates Subject: Re: Underscores and word commands Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:25:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: (John Yates's message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:39:35 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Ken Raeburn , Emacs Dev , Miles Bader X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:25:43 -0000 >> ... we should probably offer, along the lines of >> subword-mode, a new minor mode that makes word commands operate on >> symbols rather than just words > Yes! Please do. 24.2? Thank you for volunteering to code it up ;-) Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 17:17:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoMmE-0003p9-JY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:17:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59048) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoMmB-0003p3-Su for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:17:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoMmA-0005ce-53 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:17:39 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:55244) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoMm8-0005bH-6W; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:17:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D5EA60006; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jufJEACBIkTU; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3E33A60001; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:32 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:17:41 -0000 On 01/20/2012 01:24 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00445.html > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00447.html > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00451.html > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00518.html Those messages are about using ASCII-only email, or having Emacs not unexpectedly insert Unicode characters into an ASCII-only document, or things of that sort, things that are about Emacs users in general. Those are all valid issues, but they don't contradict the basic point that it's becoming less important to cater to ASCII-only development environments. We routinely place more requirements on Emacs developers than on Emacs users, and in particular we assume that Emacs developers can routinely view and otherwise deal with non-ASCII characters when they need to. This is not an assumption we could have made 30 years ago, but it's a safe assumption today. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 17:34:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoN2M-00065I-Bx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:34:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47083) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoN2K-000659-CB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:34:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoN2H-0007Ve-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:34:20 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:44409) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoN2H-0007VT-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:34:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A863CA60006; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:34:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s4AJi0HqLkks; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C64EAA60001; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:34:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:34:15 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: 'Ulrich Mueller' , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:34:21 -0000 On 01/20/2012 06:05 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > I actually much prefer symmetry, the way it was with pre-unicode > X fonts. E.g. =E2=80=9Bmyfoo=E2=80=99. > ... > One other problem (besides display) with directed quote marks is that > they're not as easy/convenient to type. Good points both. Perhaps it would be nice to introduce a quoting function that follows the user's preference without our having to type directed quotes in the Elisp source code. This could be a new format flag `, e.g., (format "Cannot open file %`s for reading", "foo.c") could follow the user's preference for quoting, returning "Cannot open file =E2=80=9Blike this=E2=80=99 for reading" in your preferred environment. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 18:30:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoNuD-0005PJ-Cc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39325) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNuB-0005Os-48 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNu6-0007ll-6q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:58 -0500 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:58006) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNu6-0007l1-4A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:54 -0500 Received: by ghrr14 with SMTP id r14so612658ghr.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:29:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:message-id:from:to:cc:newsgroups:subject:in-reply-to :references:x-mailer:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=3Spit3Yhhv7RjdDit5bf6ILOt56XWx+3BZM3Vw9QIs4=; b=hnZpRai+ctytBwCcVsFM8RvXQz2dut6qHdfZyypv4Rjoq5XZniSzq/dBh0XpcKZq7A B6vGlC7DsJS64sdK1yTfG3Gza8y73LKTY9B0gJDSobc6O2kxtmZfSixVToYUlsVo4hNz LD6ysYxcYjL0ZSwv5xHRW39dk+9EnYGnYDets= Received: by 10.236.192.200 with SMTP id i48mr22011503yhn.126.1327102192675; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kipuamutay.com.ryu.edu ([201.240.84.37]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i32sm12264014anm.22.2012.01.20.15.29.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:29:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: "rrandresf@gmail.com" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:21 -0500 Message-ID: <878vl2rm0e.wl%andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> From: andres.ramirez To: Tassilo Horn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Killing a frame sometimes kills emacs In-Reply-To: <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> References: <87d3flnxoo.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <83fwkhdld0.fsf@gnu.org> <871uw04lr9.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjog35jj.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <4E5F7ECD.9060601@swipnet.se> <838vq8e0x5.fsf@gnu.org> <87sjn03tzx.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjmzbmvv.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87vcrvm0dr.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87aa96ogb3.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <8762ijjbzu.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> X-Mailer: Wanderlust/2.15.9 User-Agent: SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 Emacs/23.3 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.169 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, schwab@linux-m68k.org, Stefan Monnier , James Cloos , Eli Zaretskii , "Jan D." , Ulrich Mueller X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:30:00 -0000 Hi. I have revno 106895. And this problem still persist. emacs is configured as follows: In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.2.3) of 2012-01-20 on wari Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11103000 configured using `configure '--prefix=/usr' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--localstatedir=/var' '--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--mandir=/usr/share/man/emacs-24' '--without-sound' '--program-suffix=-emacs-24' '--infodir=/usr/share/info/emacs-24' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk3' 'CFLAGS=-march=i686 -mtune=generic -O2 -pipe -fstack-protector --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,--hash-style=gnu'' Regards At Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:38:39 +0100, Tassilo Horn wrote: > > Stefan Monnier writes: > > Hi Stefan, > > > To avoid the risk of reaching 0 via wrap-around (yes, I know that > > creating a billion frames in the life of a single session is unlikely, > > but still), you could do: > > > > /* If needed, delete the terminal that this frame was on. > > (This must be done after the frame is killed.) */ > > terminal->reference_count--; > > #ifdef USE_GTK > > /* ... (Use C-style not C++ style comments) ... */ > > if (terminal->reference_count == 0 && terminal->type == output_x_window) > > terminal->reference_count = 1; > > #endif > > if (terminal->reference_count == 0) > > { > > Lisp_Object tmp; > > I liked this version best and it's committed now. > > Bye, > Tassilo > -- > (What the world needs (I think) is not > (a Lisp (with fewer parentheses)) > but (an English (with more.))) > Brian Hayes, http://tinyurl.com/3y9l2kf > > From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 18:30:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoNuQ-0005mG-IL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39450) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNuN-0005jZ-Hf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNuJ-0007uU-MY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:11 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:55801) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoNuJ-0007st-26; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:30:07 -0500 Received: by yenm10 with SMTP id m10so601885yen.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:message-id:from:to:cc:newsgroups:subject:in-reply-to :references:x-mailer:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=3Spit3Yhhv7RjdDit5bf6ILOt56XWx+3BZM3Vw9QIs4=; b=Is9eZFscNsjHlFZK0NkK7jJ8B3Phju6/Yd6r2behbpZEIb9SFtRhiuKRFDzKPjIR1g VWpQI7awDz/6sSg301i8ko6tAmlx5G9aiH085cPdbzSVQDIXs7eCAnsA5+Sp6M56BhPj ubJ2ESUAUX++9utjcqbs6gqo7sPrCUaNt/eu4= Received: by 10.236.77.232 with SMTP id d68mr48530853yhe.98.1327102204694; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kipuamutay.com.ryu.edu ([201.240.84.37]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v17sm12265823anm.21.2012.01.20.15.30.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:30:04 -0800 (PST) Sender: "rrandresf@gmail.com" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:37 -0500 Message-ID: <877h0mrlzy.wl%andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> From: andres.ramirez To: Tassilo Horn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Killing a frame sometimes kills emacs In-Reply-To: <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> References: <87d3flnxoo.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <83fwkhdld0.fsf@gnu.org> <871uw04lr9.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjog35jj.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <4E5F7ECD.9060601@swipnet.se> <838vq8e0x5.fsf@gnu.org> <87sjn03tzx.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjmzbmvv.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87vcrvm0dr.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87aa96ogb3.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <8762ijjbzu.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> X-Mailer: Wanderlust/2.15.9 User-Agent: SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 Emacs/23.3 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.169 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, schwab@linux-m68k.org, Stefan Monnier , James Cloos , Eli Zaretskii , "Jan D." , Ulrich Mueller X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:30:13 -0000 Hi. I have revno 106895. And this problem still persist. emacs is configured as follows: In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.2.3) of 2012-01-20 on wari Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11103000 configured using `configure '--prefix=/usr' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--localstatedir=/var' '--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--mandir=/usr/share/man/emacs-24' '--without-sound' '--program-suffix=-emacs-24' '--infodir=/usr/share/info/emacs-24' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk3' 'CFLAGS=-march=i686 -mtune=generic -O2 -pipe -fstack-protector --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,--hash-style=gnu'' Regards At Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:38:39 +0100, Tassilo Horn wrote: > > Stefan Monnier writes: > > Hi Stefan, > > > To avoid the risk of reaching 0 via wrap-around (yes, I know that > > creating a billion frames in the life of a single session is unlikely, > > but still), you could do: > > > > /* If needed, delete the terminal that this frame was on. > > (This must be done after the frame is killed.) */ > > terminal->reference_count--; > > #ifdef USE_GTK > > /* ... (Use C-style not C++ style comments) ... */ > > if (terminal->reference_count == 0 && terminal->type == output_x_window) > > terminal->reference_count = 1; > > #endif > > if (terminal->reference_count == 0) > > { > > Lisp_Object tmp; > > I liked this version best and it's committed now. > > Bye, > Tassilo > -- > (What the world needs (I think) is not > (a Lisp (with fewer parentheses)) > but (an English (with more.))) > Brian Hayes, http://tinyurl.com/3y9l2kf > > From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 19:34:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoOuH-0006Jp-1f for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55707) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoOuE-0006IY-Gk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoOuC-0004LQ-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoOuC-0004LK-PD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:04 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoOuB-0000o7-4H; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:03 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: andres.ramirez Subject: Re: Killing a frame sometimes kills emacs References: <87d3flnxoo.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <83fwkhdld0.fsf@gnu.org> <871uw04lr9.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjog35jj.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <4E5F7ECD.9060601@swipnet.se> <838vq8e0x5.fsf@gnu.org> <87sjn03tzx.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjmzbmvv.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87vcrvm0dr.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87aa96ogb3.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <8762ijjbzu.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <878vl2rm0e.wl%andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> X-Spook: fundamentalist emc INSCOM advisors e-cash Firefly Hugo X-Ran: 7PV[|LZS9~cPm5:Pk)O#k9*\ User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:34:07 -0000 andres.ramirez wrote: > I have revno 106895. And this problem still persist. > > emacs is configured as follows: > In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.2.3) > of 2012-01-20 on wari If you have that revision, why is your version number not 24.0.92? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 20:15:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoPY1-0002W5-9o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:15:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPXz-0002VR-1t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:15:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPXw-0007aV-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:15:11 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38072) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPXw-0007YG-P7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:15:08 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPXu-0001b2-Ql for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:15:06 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:15:06 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:15:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:13:52 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 19 Message-ID: <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WCRbbyNLSzGeWSqzjdi2Nu92Q/s= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:15:12 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:34:15 -0800 Paul Eggert wrote: PE> Perhaps it would be nice to introduce a quoting function that PE> follows the user's preference without our having to type directed PE> quotes in the Elisp source code. This could be a new format flag `, PE> e.g., PE> (format "Cannot open file %`s for reading", "foo.c") PE> could follow the user's preference for quoting, returning PE> "Cannot open file ‛like this’ for reading" PE> in your preferred environment. That would be cool. But maybe it would be nicer to have %` and %' for open/close quote instead. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 20:26:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoPis-0003wo-BC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:26:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38760) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPiq-0003wh-3E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:26:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPio-00055S-CK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:26:24 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:54358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoPio-00055F-71 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:26:22 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C01A60008 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSan8wdf39jU for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1A3DA60007 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:21 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> In-Reply-To: <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:26:25 -0000 On 01/20/2012 05:13 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > maybe it would be nicer to have %` and %' for > open/close quote instead I had thought of that, but %' already has a different meaning with POSIX printf (it inserts thousands grouping characters when formatting numbers), and we might want to implement that in Emacs someday. We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible to support both, that is, one could either write this: (format "Cannot open file %`s for reading" "foo.c") or this: (format "Cannot open file %<%s%> for reading" "foo.c") From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 21:29:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoQiM-0008Mj-KV for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:29:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58341) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoQiJ-0008JS-Bk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:29:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoQiI-00071l-Ay for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:29:55 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:38534) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoQiI-00070u-6v; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:29:54 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so2098091iad.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WNpUJSA/ZEbVygfx6Qb1WG0w8beivPR4ux9z4BQAhrg=; b=q6fR3veYoYBjPdImDeQFiZxsiWqMRWbbfAvj7KB9YwDU+7nhvfIyuo3JkdU8R8ZrTF tA8mSHSZ4Xd7pE6en1J42vW/aiLHEVocFrX1jiI2mOQ0ZLSxLeTRmTdNrzXzyza5TSb6 jARaWCBznl/IxiikEoRKEY9XNpbkSRb4IME9s= Received: by 10.43.117.194 with SMTP id fn2mr150301icc.53.1327112993025; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.176.78]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id or1sm8038254igc.3.2012.01.20.18.29.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:29:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ABC04B73; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:29:43 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Eric Lilja Subject: Re: emacs-20120116-r106877 Windows Binaries References: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:29:43 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Eric Lilja's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:47:30 +0100") Message-ID: <8762g5n5yg.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:29:56 -0000 Eric Lilja writes: > > I imported the GNU keyring, but when I tried to verify the .sig file > accompanying this binary, I got a public key not found error. The key > of the person who used to build and provide this binaries are in that > keyring, but not yours? Maybe I made a mistake, I'm new to gpg. It isn't possible to upload to the GNU ftp server if your public key is not in the GNU keyring, so I think you must have an old version of the keyring. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 21:58:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoRAG-00078M-ML for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:58:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRAE-00076f-Qt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:58:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRAD-0004w2-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:58:46 -0500 Received: from mail-yw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.213.41]:42060) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRAC-0004vq-1V; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:58:44 -0500 Received: by yhpp34 with SMTP id p34so647704yhp.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:58:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:message-id:from:to:cc:newsgroups:subject:in-reply-to :references:x-mailer:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=XsF0o8chsBJgUtkhkk7igC5hKHeQpWZkHezf3c2bG+w=; b=xn+kucc5EVySBlqfWjCPdmH1VvzVV3NfWhjwjgmAtN5A0nEbzzNdtDbgr6nABxOhLZ /p01cypU3ily3lWA8H2BhTA30dOGZF5bH29tX0Tec4G4yE96nlRG97SfeTN+FHUh2dU9 uaFbajB0tv9wcUECHuNttpr5Po4BEsmQXXb2E= Received: by 10.236.185.138 with SMTP id u10mr253427yhm.57.1327114723208; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Nokia-N800-43-7.ryu.edu ([201.240.84.37]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y58sm8717124yhi.17.2012.01.20.18.58.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:58:42 -0800 (PST) Sender: "rrandresf@gmail.com" Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:02:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: andres.ramirez To: Glenn Morris Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Killing a frame sometimes kills emacs In-Reply-To: <2iipk5vqpx.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87d3flnxoo.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <83fwkhdld0.fsf@gnu.org> <871uw04lr9.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjog35jj.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <4E5F7ECD.9060601@swipnet.se> <838vq8e0x5.fsf@gnu.org> <87sjn03tzx.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87sjmzbmvv.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <87vcrvm0dr.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87aa96ogb3.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <8762ijjbzu.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <87sjllepnk.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> <878vl2rm0e.wl%andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> <2iipk5vqpx.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Mailer: Wanderlust/2.15.9 User-Agent: SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 Emacs/23.3 (arm-unknown-linux-gnueabi) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.41 Cc: "andres.ramirez" , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:58:47 -0000 Hi Glenn. the problem was my emacs-build directory, after removing it I got In GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.2.3) of 2012-01-20 on wari Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11103000 configured using `configure '--prefix=/usr' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--localstatedir=/var' '--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--mandir=/usr/share/man/emacs-24' '--without-sound' '--program-suffix=-emacs-24' '--infodir=/usr/share/info/emacs-24' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk3' 'CFLAGS=-march=i686 -mtune=generic -O2 -pipe -fstack-protector --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,--hash-style=gnu'' And also the problem is GONE, sorry for bothering Regards At Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:34:02 -0500, Glenn Morris wrote: > > andres.ramirez wrote: > > > I have revno 106895. And this problem still persist. > > > > emacs is configured as follows: > > In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.2.3) > > of 2012-01-20 on wari > > If you have that revision, why is your version number not 24.0.92? > > From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 20 22:20:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoRVP-0000kj-JA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:20:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58940) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRVN-0000kd-D1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:20:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRVM-0002U4-6S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:20:37 -0500 Received: from smtp11.dentaku.gol.com ([203.216.5.73]:58915) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRVL-0002SZ-Su; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:20:36 -0500 Received: from 218.231.234.50.eo.eaccess.ne.jp ([218.231.234.50] helo=catnip.gol.com) by smtp11.dentaku.gol.com with esmtpa (Dentaku) (envelope-from ) id 1RoRVH-00066q-4A; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:31 +0900 Received: by catnip.gol.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4A4242BD42; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:30 +0900 (JST) From: Miles Bader To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Last call for lua-mode contributors References: System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:30 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:17:09 -0500") Message-ID: <87y5t1kagx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Lines: 32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV GOL (outbound) X-Abuse-Complaints: abuse@gol.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 203.216.5.73 Cc: Lua mailing list , immerrr again , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:20:38 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> [lua-mode redefines "_" as a word-component; it shouldn't, as it >> really messes with users' instincts, and makes Emacs commands less >> useful. Historically this was often done by language-modes as an > > BTW, this reminds me: why do word-based movement commands even care > about the syntax-table? I understand that it's the way they're > currently implemented, but AFAICT we don't actually want their behavior > to depend on the major mode, do we? Dunno, I suppose sometimes maybe it is reasonable to allow the details to be tweaked; it's "consistency of feel" which is the goal, which may not always entail literal consistency.... For instance: is a single-quote part of a word? In text-mode, it is, and that makes some sense, because single-quotes are mostly followed by a single letter to form a contracted thingie. Having word commands stop at the single-letter boundary in such cases would be pretty annoying and not particularly useful, and generally wouldn't feel "right" (even though there's a visual boundary). However in some programming language mode that uses single-quotes like Ada does, as an operator, you really want them to be punctuation, because they are used to separate independent pieces that are thought of as independent. -Miles -- Discriminate, v.i. To note the particulars in which one person or thing is, if possible, more objectionable than another. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 01:11:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoUAN-0005GI-GK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:11:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56283) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoUAI-0005Eu-A9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:11:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoUAE-0003ss-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:11:02 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:50808) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoUAD-0003sZ-V3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:10:58 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2FD9707AA; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:10:49 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8AC881A32C6; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:10:49 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:10:49 +0900 Message-ID: <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:11:06 -0000 Paul Eggert writes: > On 01/20/2012 05:13 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > > maybe it would be nicer to have %` and %' for > > open/close quote instead As Jim Cloos pointed out, we (at least he and I ;-) want to move in the direction of semantic markup. Also, I can just see people abusing the one-sided quotes to get a "pretty" apostrophe. > I had thought of that, but %' already has a different > meaning with POSIX printf (it inserts thousands grouping > characters when formatting numbers), and we might want to > implement that in Emacs someday. > > We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> > (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible > to support both, You're getting carried away. No thank you to multiple ways to do something that's purely cosmetic. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 03:37:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoWS7-0005pA-Dz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:37:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33567) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWS1-0005ot-Ak for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:37:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWRw-000885-Lh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:37:29 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:54279) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWRw-00087x-HC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:37:24 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654761C1D9F7; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:37:18 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: 64PqUckRDyJt0owZmdosPAOW1s8vUbt6fDbYGgTbQxU= Received: from linux.local (ppp-93-104-142-223.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.142.223]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 47E461C00190; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:37:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4DF5E1E5308; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:37:15 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Yow: My nose feels like a bad Ronald Reagan movie... Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:37:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:10:49 +0900") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: Paul Eggert , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:37:33 -0000 "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Paul Eggert writes: > > We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> > > (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible > > to support both, > > You're getting carried away. No thank you to multiple ways to do > something that's purely cosmetic. That's actually what GCC is using. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 03:53:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoWhz-00077M-VF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:53:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35476) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWHw-0005Ec-Kh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:27:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWHv-00073N-Ho for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:27:04 -0500 Received: from msa104.auone-net.jp ([61.117.18.164]:50449) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWHt-00072W-LU; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:27:02 -0500 Received: from GUNGNIR.med.osaka-cu.ac.jp (180-144-122-160f1.nar1.eonet.ne.jp [180.144.122.160]) by msa104.auone-net.jp (au one net msa) with ESMTP id 197C52C037; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:26:53 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:26:44 +0900 From: Kazuhiro Ito To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs pretest 23.0.90 In-Reply-To: <8739bb91vk.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ehv1y5ir.fsf@gnu.org> <20120117153948.1EAA02C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> <874nvtgiep.fsf@gnu.org> <20120119084410.C0FC94B803A@msa106.auone-net.jp> <8739bb91vk.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?UTF-8?B?R29qxY0=?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/24.0.92 (i386-mingw-nt6.1.7601) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20120121082654.197C52C037@msa104.auone-net.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 61.117.18.164 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:53:58 -0500 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:27:05 -0000 > > I hope at least Bug#9318 will be installed in Emacs 23.4. Because > > that bug can crash Emacs on Windows very easily and Wanderlust (a mail > > user agent) sometimes crashes in saving a draft message and loses it. > > Alright, I'll take the risk and merge in the Bug#9318 fix. I've confirmed that on emacs-23 branch. Thank you for taking the risk. -- Kazuhiro Ito From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 03:59:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoWmz-0007jW-V6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42024) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWmu-0007jM-Mh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWmp-0002Qs-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:59:04 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:24317 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWmp-0002Qb-Do for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 03:58:59 -0500 Received: (qmail 74758 invoked by uid 3782); 21 Jan 2012 08:58:57 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95561F9.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.97.249]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:58:56 +0100 Received: (qmail 3114 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jan 2012 08:59:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:59:05 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:59:08 -0000 Hi, Paul. On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 02:17:32PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/20/2012 01:24 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Those messages are about using ASCII-only email, or having Emacs not > unexpectedly insert Unicode characters into an ASCII-only document, > or things of that sort, things that are about Emacs users in general. > Those are all valid issues, but they don't contradict the basic point > that it's becoming less important to cater to ASCII-only development > environments. Sorry, but that's a philosophical point that cannot pass without challenge. Because fewer people are using tty environments (which is basically what is meant here by "ASCII-only") is it really "less important" to support them? Or is there some other reason? There are at least three Emacs developers who use a tty rather than a GUI. There are users who do the same. (Why use a GUI for pure text work, indeed?) To adapt a tty for random Unicode characters is a non-trivial amount of work. > We routinely place more requirements on Emacs developers than on Emacs users, > and in particular we assume that Emacs developers can routinely view and > otherwise deal with non-ASCII characters when they need to. This is not > an assumption we could have made 30 years ago, but it's a safe assumption > today. When I need to view one (which is rare), I use C-u C-x =. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 04:10:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoWyK-0000SY-Tx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:10:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33892) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWyE-0000QC-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:10:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWyA-0003pB-BX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:10:46 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:35695) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoWyA-0003p5-4C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:10:42 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY500C005BM0J00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:40 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.116.75]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY500BGU5HQVFC0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:40 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:40 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-reply-to: <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 Cc: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:10:51 -0000 > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:17:32 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 01/20/2012 01:24 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00445.html > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00447.html > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00451.html > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-08/msg00518.html > > Those messages are about using ASCII-only email, or having Emacs not > unexpectedly insert Unicode characters into an ASCII-only document, > or things of that sort, things that are about Emacs users in general. > Those are all valid issues, but they don't contradict the basic point > that it's becoming less important to cater to ASCII-only development > environments. Read the whole (longish) thread if you want to understand the context. The context was precisely what is being discussed here: should we seriously cater to ASCII-only environments, or can we forget about them or treat them as second-class citizens. The rest were examples invoked to make this point or refute it. > We routinely place more requirements on Emacs developers than on Emacs users, > and in particular we assume that Emacs developers can routinely view and > otherwise deal with non-ASCII characters when they need to. This is not > an assumption we could have made 30 years ago, but it's a safe assumption > today. I don't see how the difference between Emacs developers and users comes into play here. The change of the quotes is proposed for doc strings, manuals, and other user-visible places. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 05:05:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoXpd-0006UG-PJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:05:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34187) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXpY-0006U8-5w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:05:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXpU-0003Ai-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:05:51 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:44117) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXpT-0003Ac-Ua for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:05:48 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so2026866obb.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:05:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=FQjJ7mWoThRCadl1jlQ02gDCYaktoi/PCgtQW03rE74=; b=b2L5ity59NrHJPZ1H/4gn7O+0KFPQVYwWdZkry/6RPQFPz/XcYFhd5urlumtopOpvW nKrxqi7g7HGtLn9Co6zLka4aq8bfTwSFbAMbZD47w89NrSL1JNiy4SGT0cm797vNe3CE I+zrGykYbKVbCNLbuJlMKst8Ipu1WjrKNxbok= Received: by 10.182.222.102 with SMTP id ql6mr1204936obc.2.1327140347219; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:05:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:05:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> <4F19AD77.5000705@gmx.at> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:05:26 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation To: martin rudalics Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044468e1f68eb104b706f0bd X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Sylvain Rousseau , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:05:56 -0000 --f46d044468e1f68eb104b706f0bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As we agreed about the solution, could you please merge this patch ? This bug is really annoying to me and probably to many others. Thanks. J=E9r=E9my 2012/1/20 J=E9r=E9my Compostella > 2012/1/20 martin rudalics > >> > Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related. >> >> So IIUC the issue is that `windmove-reference-loc' >> >> (windmove-coord-add >> top-left >> (let ((col-row >> (posn-col-row >> (posn-at-point (window-point window) window)))) >> (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)) >> (cdr col-row))))))))) >> >> wrongly subtracts the value returned by `window-hscroll' from a column >> value correctly calculated by `posn-at-point' (window_box_left_offset)? >> >> Yes, you're perfectly right that's my point and my patch remove this. > Thanks. > > It's time to friday beer evening now :) > --f46d044468e1f68eb104b706f0bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As we agreed about the solution, could you please merge this patch ?
Th= is bug is really annoying to me and probably to many others.

=
Thanks.

J=E9r=E9my

2012/1/20 J=E9r=E9my Compostella <jeremy.compostella@gmail.com>
=
2012/1/20 martin rudalics= <rudalics@gmx.at>
> Effectively the issue is only windmove.el related.

So IIUC the issue is that `windmove-reference-loc'

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(windmove-coord-add
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 top-left
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (let ((col-row
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(posn-col-row
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (posn-at-point (window-point windo= w) window))))
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (cons (- (car col-row) (window-hscroll window)= )
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (cdr col-row)))))))))

wrongly subtracts the value returned by `window-hscroll' from a column<= br> value correctly calculated by `posn-at-point' (window_box_left_offset)?=

Yes, you're perfectly right that&= #39;s my point and my patch remove this.
Thanks.

It's time to friday beer evening now :)

--f46d044468e1f68eb104b706f0bd-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 05:09:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoXtW-0007sn-S1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:09:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56891) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXtU-0007sh-J9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:09:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXtQ-0003bm-Je for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:09:56 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:38641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXtQ-0003bh-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:09:52 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY500C00802GU00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:50 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.116.75]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY500CAM888AH60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:45 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:46 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property In-reply-to: <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, michael_heerdegen@web.de Message-id: <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:09:57 -0000 > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:18:47 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Could you please describe your scenario in more detail? Empty lines > > have no text, so it's unclear how can you talk about "clickable text" > > in that case. > > I'm talking about completion candidates that can be selected with the > mouse. I stumbled over this problem in Icicles, but it also appears in > vanilla Emacs. Try this: > > (completing-read "foo: " '(("aaaa") ("bbbb") ("\n") ("cccc"))) > > The "\n" candidate gets no visible mouse-face when you move the mouse > over it in *Completions*, so the user doesn't see where to click to > select it. Thanks. But that's not what I meant. You gave a test case, but didn't explain how come "\n" winded up in the list of completion candidates. But let's take this particular example: How would you like the newline to be displayed for the user to understand there's a selectable newline there? If we replace the "\n" with a "_", the *Completions* display is like this: Possible completions are: _ aaaa bbbb cccc What would you say the display should look like with \n instead of _, and which part(s) of the corresponding screen line would need to be highlighted when the mouse hovers over the newline? Most importantly, given the display you want to see, how would the user understand she is suggested a selectable newline? > Such completion candidates are a bit exotic, right, but they _do_ appear > in some situations. Well, I asked for those _situations_ leading to these lists of candidates to be described. TIA. Also, are completion candidates the only situations where these problems arise? The original issue you raised was much more general, AFAIU. Btw, in Emacs 23, you couldn't even select such a newline, neither with a mouse click nor with a RET: you'd get "\naaaa" instead of a lone "\n". In Emacs 24, at least you can select the newline alone. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 05:14:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoXxU-0008Ty-8B for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:14:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57960) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXxR-0008Tm-Uy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:14:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXxQ-0004BK-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:14:01 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:58458) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoXxQ-0004BB-Bc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:14:00 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 21 Jan 2012 10:13:58 -0000 Received: from 62-47-34-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.34.77]) [62.47.34.77] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 21 Jan 2012 11:13:58 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/Gdb8Afc3GWX03Y1e2vZqxZVz2WrHhZK6pgk7glI 9+JEhkc/4/PHb7 Message-ID: <4F1A8FE5.2050703@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:13:57 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] windmove.el: Fix windmove-reference-loc miscalculation References: <87wr8ntkxb.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F193B95.5000808@gmx.at> <4F19AD77.5000705@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 Cc: Sylvain Rousseau , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:14:02 -0000 > As we agreed about the solution, could you please merge this patch ? > This bug is really annoying to me and probably to many others. I've installed your patch already ;-) Next time please make a bug report so it will be easier to provide a suitable reference to the thread from a comment. Thanks, martin From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 05:29:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoYCe-0001xP-4o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:29:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39132) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYCb-0001wQ-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:29:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYCa-0006Vp-Dx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:29:41 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:58715) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYCa-0006VU-63 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:29:40 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY5001008EKMA00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:29:35 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.116.75]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY50000Z957TAD0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:29:33 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:29:33 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-reply-to: <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Alan Mackenzie Message-id: <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:29:42 -0000 > Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:59:05 +0000 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Sorry, but that's a philosophical point that cannot pass without > challenge. Because fewer people are using tty environments (which is > basically what is meant here by "ASCII-only") is it really "less > important" to support them? Or is there some other reason? > > There are at least three Emacs developers who use a tty rather than a > GUI. There are users who do the same. (Why use a GUI for pure text > work, indeed?) To adapt a tty for random Unicode characters is a > non-trivial amount of work. TTY != pure-ASCII. What kind of TTY do you use that needs a "non-trivial amount of work" to support non-ASCII characters? And what that is the work which needs to be done for that? From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 06:12:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoYsC-0006oK-5N for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44950) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYsA-0006oC-Bt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYs9-0003qv-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:38 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:28074 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYs9-0003qV-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 88931 invoked by uid 3782); 21 Jan 2012 11:12:31 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9519E74.dip.t-dialin.net [217.81.158.116]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:12:28 +0100 Received: (qmail 2785 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jan 2012 11:12:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:12:38 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:12:39 -0000 On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:29:33PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:59:05 +0000 > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, > > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Sorry, but that's a philosophical point that cannot pass without > > challenge. Because fewer people are using tty environments (which is > > basically what is meant here by "ASCII-only") is it really "less > > important" to support them? Or is there some other reason? > > There are at least three Emacs developers who use a tty rather than a > > GUI. There are users who do the same. (Why use a GUI for pure text > > work, indeed?) To adapt a tty for random Unicode characters is a > > non-trivial amount of work. > TTY != pure-ASCII. Yes, OK. But they share some of the problems WRT curly quote marks. > What kind of TTY do you use that needs a "non-trivial amount of work" > to support non-ASCII characters? And what that is the work which > needs to be done for that? I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 character set. I'd need somehow to arrange for the quotes to be added to that set. I don't know of any character set which includes both of these (I've had a look through /usr/share/consolefonts/). I don't know how to do this, and finding out is going to be a lot of work. Also, there's the issue of adapting the keyboard to support the new characters. I know how to do this, so it's no big deal for me. But for the vast majority of tty users, I'd guess this is another research project. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 06:16:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoYvb-0007fN-Mn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:16:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58509) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYvZ-0007e9-AG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:16:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYvT-0004WE-IK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:16:09 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:52012) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoYvT-0004W0-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:16:03 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY500D00B5F6R00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:16:01 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.116.75]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY500DZMBAO6Q00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:16:01 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:16:02 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-reply-to: <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Alan Mackenzie Message-id: <83pqed2tn1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:16:10 -0000 > Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:12:38 +0000 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 character set. Is it possible to run it with the UTF-8 character set? AFAIU, this will solve all your problems, while still being compatible with Latin-1. > Also, there's the issue of adapting the keyboard to support the new > characters. That's a different issue. If and when we start using the non-ASCII quotes, we will probably introduce some easy way of typing them anyway. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 07:52:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoaQX-0002SS-RT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:52:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35764) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoaQV-0002Pv-2R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:52:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoaQU-0006iT-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:52:11 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:50034) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoaQQ-0006hv-QW; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:52:07 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6C318000DE; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:52:03 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: GAS7PLD7SpUwjmisDV3KoelunL4wLY1caeTDwwQsv98= Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-142-223.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.142.223]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8BBF61C00050; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:52:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id DBAE1CA29F; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:52:02 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> <83pqed2tn1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: It's NO USE.. I've gone to ``CLUB MED''!! Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:52:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83pqed2tn1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:16:02 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.10 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:52:12 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:12:38 +0000 >> Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Alan Mackenzie >> >> I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 character set. > > Is it possible to run it with the UTF-8 character set? AFAIU, this > will solve all your problems, while still being compatible with Latin-1. A console font cannot contain more than 512 characters. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 09:12:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RobgQ-0007lR-63 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:12:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RobgO-0007ks-6u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:12:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RobgN-00089B-75 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:12:40 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:32770) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RobgN-000897-0g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:12:39 -0500 Received: by wgbds1 with SMTP id ds1so39067wgb.30 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=t4dqPwwfTNapaDn2IXPKBgqchoCtyPWGMKZNIjo+8L0=; b=VzpZ7dwDq4rWgdjFv4tz9MFTk9kSVfWgvEnfdBMZ5L3au6AnJ9nQ4MrmsV0z4qkMTL VTwucGYcN6LSV76bpsZPGf8HeZr3d/ccCsIKiw9aQ96tzmyHXkw5Or6739hk9rQkYDiL ZyGyXaebZolt5yh4Pc1lrm4YTL/f9qyvnWVz0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.19.138 with SMTP id f10mr3741988wie.3.1327155157685; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.25.140 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:12:37 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Memory again/ NS crash From: emacs user To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:12:41 -0000 Please see below another crash that seems NS-related... happy to provide additional details/ do tests, if anyone is interested in further exploring this. On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:37 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: >> Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory. >> Reason: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at address: 0x00007fff5f3aefe8 > > According to the output of the `vmmap' command, 0x00007fff5f3aefe8 is > in the stack guard for the main thread. =A0Together with the long stack > trace, this crash seems to be due to too deeply nested recursive > calls. =A0It might be caused by too deeply nested data structures that > lead to deep the GC traversal, or some NS-specific problem again. =A0It > would be useful to post to the list whether it also happens with an > unoptimized X11 build. Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory. Reason: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at address: 0x00007fff5f3aefe8 0x00000001001d1e12 in mark_object (arg=3D4571286741) at alloc.c:5579 5579 mark_vectorlike (XVECTOR (obj)); (gdb) where #0 0x00000001001d1e12 in mark_object (arg=3D4571286741) at alloc.c:5579 #1 0x00000001001d2354 in mark_object (arg=3D4468885238) at alloc.c:5702 #2 0x00000001001d1edc in mark_object (arg=3D4552798930) at alloc.c:5595 #3 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107b8b050) at alloc.c:53= 91 #4 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424511573) at alloc.c:5579 #5 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107b90390) at alloc.c:53= 91 #6 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424532885) at alloc.c:5579 #7 0x00000001001d2354 in mark_object (arg=3D4468885222) at alloc.c:5702 #8 0x00000001001d1edc in mark_object (arg=3D4552799074) at alloc.c:5595 #9 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107bc6fe0) at alloc.c:53= 91 #10 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424757221) at alloc.c:5579 #11 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107b48eb0) at alloc.c:53= 91 #12 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424240821) at alloc.c:5579 #13 0x00000001001d2354 in mark_object (arg=3D4468885206) at alloc.c:5702 #14 0x00000001001d1edc in mark_object (arg=3D4552770562) at alloc.c:5595 #15 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107b2a360) at alloc.c:53= 91 #16 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424115045) at alloc.c:5579 #17 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107b49170) at alloc.c:53= 91 #18 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424241525) at alloc.c:5579 #19 0x00000001001d2354 in mark_object (arg=3D4468885190) at alloc.c:5702 #20 0x00000001001d1edc in mark_object (arg=3D4552770706) at alloc.c:5595 #21 0x00000001001d17bd in mark_vectorlike (ptr=3D0x107bc8640) at alloc.c:53= 91 #22 0x00000001001d1e17 in mark_object (arg=3D4424762949) at alloc.c:5579 ... this seems to be going on forever, I killed it at some point and am attaching only the beginning of the traceback above. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 09:36:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Roc3j-000296-FN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:36:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44124) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roc3g-00027r-IL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:36:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roc3e-0002E1-S8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:36:44 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:53807) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roc3e-0002Dt-MF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:36:42 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so2168931obb.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:36:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=uVWsDoKdmBpQgrdwrc1WFmtALfF8F92kfhITXYgUWxI=; b=iesQqoha0Twlx0SD8VoC//Zp0lTnlEZWN38ZxFONYg1GuFzQQuUiRqq7Hmq6JB4/jM I6h+kGF3mpuzLQJmzc8KxT62+LiogT1WvB34ou+qQn58n2ZiaQkVMONQypR0cANVf/LW +nafgfR8DNPtR2pMPS4S4tCnc6QQ4buqaSCA4= Received: by 10.182.0.106 with SMTP id 10mr1681596obd.72.1327156602097; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:36:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:36:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:36:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d043c077ed4513804b70ab950 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:36:45 -0000 --f46d043c077ed4513804b70ab950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c077ed4513504b70ab94e --f46d043c077ed4513504b70ab94e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2012/1/20 Stefan Monnier > >> I'm not completely sure. The current code doesn't seem that bad since, > >> as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of > >> window-configurations. > >> So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the current > >> behavior is a problem. > > It's very simple : with the current code, when you call the > > `window-state-put' function, the mark is restored as active. > > That's easy to fix: use (set-marker (mark-marker)) instead of set-mark. > Interesting. > > > - Either, remove all the mark stuff from `window-state-get' and > > `window-state-put' functions. > > That's not a bad idea, actually. > Yes that's was my first idea in fact. After this discussion I think it's the good thing to do and ou I attached the corresponding patch to this email. `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unexpected behavior from user point of view. > > Stefan > > > PS: BTW, the "multiple push-mark" issue can be solved by saving the mark > only once per buffer rather than once per window (i.e. the window-state > object would have a separate list of affected buffers with their > corresponding state, including the mark, not sure what else could be > there). > I do agree but it will change several things and while we are in feature freeze I propose to remove the wrong mark management and see how to do it this way in future development. Thanks. --f46d043c077ed4513504b70ab94e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/20 Stefan Monnier <<= a href=3D"mailto:monnier@iro.umontreal.ca">monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>=
>> I'm not completely sure. =A0The current code= doesn't seem that bad since,
>> as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of
>> window-configurations.
>> So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the= current
>> behavior is a problem.
> It's very simple : with the current code, when you call the
> `window-state-put' function, the mark is restored as active.

That's easy to fix: use (set-marker (mark-marker)) instead of set= -mark.
Interesting.=A0

> - Either, remove all the mark stuff from `window-state-get' and > `window-state-put' functions.

That's not a bad idea, actually.
Yes that= 9;s was my first idea in fact. After this discussion I think it's the g= ood
thing to do and ou I attached=A0the corresponding patch to th= is email.
`window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal with= mark as it's not
relevant at all and leads to an unexpected = behavior from user point of view.



=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Stefan


PS: BTW, the "multiple push-mark" issue can be solved by saving t= he mark
only once per buffer rather than once per window (i.e. the window-state
object would have a separate list of affected buffers with their
corresponding state, including the mark, not sure what else could be
there).
I do agree but it will change several things a= nd while we are in feature freeze I
propose to remove the wrong m= ark management and see how to do it this way
in future developmen= t.

Thanks.

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[71.208.68.16]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id py4sm5119156igc.2.2012.01.21.09.06.54 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1AF0A9.8090903@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:06:49 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Rumney Subject: Re: emacs-20120116-r106877 Windows Binaries References: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> <8762g5n5yg.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <8762g5n5yg.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eric Lilja , emacs-devel@gnu.org, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:07:05 -0000 On 1/20/2012 7:29 PM, Jason Rumney wrote: >> I imported the GNU keyring, but when I tried to verify the .sig file >> accompanying this binary, I got a public key not found error. The key >> of the person who used to build and provide this binaries are in that >> keyring, but not yours? Maybe I made a mistake, I'm new to gpg. > > It isn't possible to upload to the GNU ftp server if your public key is > not in the GNU keyring, so I think you must have an old version of the > keyring. I just downloaded the keyring from http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-keyring.gpg and I could not find my key. Maybe this needs to be updated? Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 12:17:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoeZM-0004Xq-6U for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:17:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36244) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoeZJ-0004Vc-0n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:17:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoeZH-00044z-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:17:32 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:47817) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoeZH-00044v-Fi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:17:31 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RoeZG-0007Kg-Fg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:17:30 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:17:30 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:17:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:17:16 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 14 Message-ID: <87r4yt7z6r.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:RtCOyGKpHETdm56zaS671wxqu2A= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:17:34 -0000 On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:10:49 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: SJT> Paul Eggert writes: >> We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> >> (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible >> to support both, SJT> You're getting carried away. No thank you to multiple ways to do SJT> something that's purely cosmetic. It is as cosmetic as the thousands and decimal separators. In a bg-UTF8 environment, for instance, the US defaults look very awkward. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 12:20:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Roebu-0005CS-UR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47515) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roebs-0005BW-NY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roebr-0004QP-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:12 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roebr-0004QF-C4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:20:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Roebq-0000BD-6D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:20:10 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:20:10 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:20:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:19:27 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 24 Message-ID: <87mx9h7z34.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:07h4zk14hdpxaDeMYkXEleDByzg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:20:13 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:26:21 -0800 Paul Eggert wrote: PE> On 01/20/2012 05:13 PM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: >> maybe it would be nicer to have %` and %' for >> open/close quote instead PE> I had thought of that, but %' already has a different PE> meaning with POSIX printf (it inserts thousands grouping PE> characters when formatting numbers), and we might want to PE> implement that in Emacs someday. PE> We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> PE> (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible PE> to support both, that is, one could either write this: PE> (format "Cannot open file %`s for reading" "foo.c") PE> or this: PE> (format "Cannot open file %<%s%> for reading" "foo.c") That would be nice. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 13:13:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RofRh-0004h7-7y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:13:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59493) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RofRe-0004fG-QZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:13:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RofRd-0002Rj-Oe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:13:42 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:54724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RofRd-0002PH-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:13:41 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC989707E4; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:13:34 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0BC11A32C6; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:13:33 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Andreas Schwab Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:13:33 +0900 Message-ID: <87pqec6i0i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Paul Eggert , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:13:43 -0000 Andreas Schwab writes: > "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > > > Paul Eggert writes: > > > We could use some other combinations, e.g., %< and %> > > > (they kinda look like French quote marks). It's possible > > > to support both, > > > > You're getting carried away. No thank you to multiple ways to do > > something that's purely cosmetic. > > That's actually what GCC is using. GCC is using *both* %` to supply mirrored quotes *and* %<, %> to supply individual quotes? If so, -1 to GCC, too. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 15:08:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RohEL-0008D0-Pg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:08:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36512) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RohEJ-0008Cj-Qr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:08:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RohEG-0005yl-T1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:08:03 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:39620) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RohEG-0005ye-ML for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:08:00 -0500 Received: from int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.23]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0LK7onc004448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:07:51 -0500 Received: from ns3.rdu.redhat.com (ns3.rdu.redhat.com [10.11.255.199]) by int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0LJwZIS013081; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:58:35 -0500 Received: from barimba (ovpn01.gateway.prod.ext.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.9.1]) by ns3.rdu.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q0LJwU7q002687; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:58:31 -0500 From: Tom Tromey To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <4F19EBE7.4010902@cs.ucla.edu> <878vl1amcv.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4F1A143D.8090603@cs.ucla.edu> <87ty3p60wm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87pqec6i0i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Attribution: Tom Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:58:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <87pqec6i0i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:13:33 +0900") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.23 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.132.183.28 Cc: Paul Eggert , Andreas Schwab , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:08:04 -0000 >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen J Turnbull writes: Stephen> GCC is using *both* %` to supply mirrored quotes *and* %<, %> to Stephen> supply individual quotes? Yes, you can use %< and %>, or use the 'q' flag to quote. Stephen> If so, -1 to GCC, too. It is convenient in practice. %<..%> is more frequently used to quote literal text, though I do see a few instances of %<%s%> in the tree, where %qs would have been simpler. Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 22:27:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Roo5d-000701-EI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:27:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41846) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roo5a-0006zu-QR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:27:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roo5Z-0000of-P5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:27:30 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]:58513) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roo5W-0000oK-RZ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:27:26 -0500 Received: from [87.198.47.37] (87-198-47-37.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F43368424; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:27:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F1B821A.5040100@harpegolden.net> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:27:22 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20120104 Icedove/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Schwab Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> <83pqed2tn1.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 65.99.215.13 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:27:32 -0000 On 21/01/12 12:52, Andreas Schwab wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:12:38 +0000 >>> Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, >>> emacs-devel@gnu.org >>> From: Alan Mackenzie >>> >>> I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 character s= et. >> >> Is it possible to run it with the UTF-8 character set? AFAIU, this >> will solve all your problems, while still being compatible with Latin-= 1. > > A console font cannot contain more than 512 characters. > > Andreas. To expand a little, as, while that's true, that doesn't mean there's no way to do it on an X-less system: True text-mode (i.e. PC VGA gfx card) linux kernel VTs inherit that=20 hardware limitation (256 glyphs with 16 colors or 512 glyphs with 8=20 colors) [1] that the kernel can do relatively little about. You can work=20 in unicode (see console-tools docs) ...but you can only set up a font=20 showing a small subset of glyphs at a time. The kernel VTs when on a=20 framebuffer have some fairly similar limits IIRC, despite there not=20 being a hardware reason in that case (lack of demand, compat, shared=20 code, and keeping things simple spring to mind as possible non-hardware=20 reasons, of course). ... However, there is nowadays a way around the limitation (presumably=20 further reducing demand for any more advanced kernel support): Use the userspace =E2=80=9Cfbterm=E2=80=9D [2][3] terminal emulator inste= ad of the linux=20 kernel's more limited built-in. It is essentially a unicode-capable=20 terminal emulator like those commonplace on X11 - but one that targets=20 the framebuffer (and also now vesa modesetting, like (or perhaps using)=20 old libsvga) rather than X11. Though I currently use X11, so have little reason to use fbterm=20 normally, I've just fairly successfully viewed the Hello file (and some=20 curly quotes) in an emacs running under =E2=80=9Cfbterm -n "DejaVu Sans Mono" -s 32 --vesa-mode=3D374=E2=80=9C [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_compatible_text_mode#Fonts [2] http://code.google.com/p/fbterm/ [3] http://packages.debian.org/sid/fbterm From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 22:32:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RooAm-0007bs-VS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:32:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37273) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RooAk-0007bL-Tz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:32:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RooAj-0001Lu-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:32:50 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]:59482) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RooAj-0001Lq-If for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:32:49 -0500 Received: from [87.198.47.37] (87-198-47-37.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CD246684A0 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:32:48 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F1B835F.6050503@harpegolden.net> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:32:47 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20120104 Icedove/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <83sjj92vsi.fsf@gnu.org> <20120121111238.GA2747@acm.acm> <83pqed2tn1.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1B821A.5040100@harpegolden.net> In-Reply-To: <4F1B821A.5040100@harpegolden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 65.99.215.13 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:32:51 -0000 On 22/01/12 03:27, David De La Harpe Golden wrote: > =E2=80=9C...=E2=80=9C hah. meant =E2=80=9C...=E2=80=9D of course. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 21 23:20:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rooue-0002RR-HQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:20:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50259) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roouc-0002Qk-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:20:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rooua-0005kD-KK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:20:13 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:64667) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rooua-0005k9-GM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:20:12 -0500 Received: by yenm10 with SMTP id m10so897076yen.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:20:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=fUXgu3dBZ3ia1cvopnJQt8vxiSO5lUCdMTs0Nj3Qk5A=; b=o0mqTqq7zsK+ormPjJmVZQ7vSBm/jxcnB9TEWX/UFh5kOoZjazOZJLbW/CD34YWn1h N8SnUQvx+LxP5IA05jSJhYQKkV641DTtaIf11qAKBmR9ThDPot8fCCaNy12EbH6nAJTP DAPn486e4EetqiXjuRDEydAkPc819uE0Y1kgE= Received: by 10.236.184.8 with SMTP id r8mr4984305yhm.110.1327206011645; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from isil.kanru.info (61-228-146-126.dynamic.hinet.net. [61.228.146.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q29sm22868614anh.1.2012.01.21.20.20.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:20:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: Kan-Ru Chen Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=isil.kanru.info) by isil.kanru.info with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1RoouT-00080d-Bu; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:20:05 +0800 From: Kan-Ru Chen To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: Slow fontification in C mode buffers References: <83vcpxbxn0.fsf@gnu.org> <20111203151824.GA4566@acm.acm> <87pqfso5d3.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215134332.GA5698@acm.acm> <87y5udizdy.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111215181215.GA3464@acm.acm> <87ty51i6vf.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20111216112617.GA3445@acm.acm> <87pqfngp3r.fsf@isil.kanru.info> <20120115211240.GA4693@acm.acm> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:20:05 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20120115211240.GA4693@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:12:40 +0000") Message-ID: <8762g4tll6.fsf@isil.kanru.info> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:20:14 -0000 Hi! Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Kanru! > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:06:00AM +0800, Kan-Ru Chen wrote: >> Alan Mackenzie writes: > >> Please forgive me for using the other files, it is closer to the real >> case. You can get the file from > >> https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/raw-file/tip/dom/base/nsDOMClassInfo.cpp > > Ah yes, this wonderful file! > > Here's another patch which contains more optimisations than my last > patch. Could you apply it _instead_ of the previous patch, and let me > know how it goes, please. The more serious editing you can do with it, > particularly on C++ files, the better. Thanks! This version works as well as previous one. It seems slightly faster than previous one, though I didn't do any serious profiling. -- Kanru From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 01:30:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Roqx7-0003QM-CR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36146) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx4-0003QF-H3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx3-0000Bd-8e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:54 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54077) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx3-0000BY-3A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:53 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx2-0000AK-3j; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:52 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:52 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:40 +0200) Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:30:56 -0000 > We routinely place more requirements on Emacs developers than on Emacs users, > and in particular we assume that Emacs developers can routinely view and > otherwise deal with non-ASCII characters when they need to. I can "deal with" nonascii characters, but some of them look rather ugly. Some of them cause the display to get out of whack, probably due to mismatch between how wide they really display and how wide Emacs thinks they are. I don't want this to happen in my error messages and documentation! Can you please send me a message containing the character proposed for this? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 01:31:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoqxD-0003cm-IC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:31:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36159) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx8-0003TK-RU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:31:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx2-0000BU-II for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54070) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx2-0000BQ-FP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:52 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roqx0-00009v-Rp; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:30:50 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:59:05 +0000) Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:31:01 -0000 There are at least three Emacs developers who use a tty rather than a GUI. There are users who do the same. (Why use a GUI for pure text work, indeed?) To adapt a tty for random Unicode characters is a non-trivial amount of work. I don't know how to do it. I wish someone would fix these things to "just work" in the future, but who knows how long that will take? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 03:00:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RosLn-0002UY-KK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:00:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54676) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RosLl-0002US-Fb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:00:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RosLk-0008VP-GR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:00:29 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:40143) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RosLi-0008VB-JV; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:00:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D350FA60007; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:00:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d19Nu2BcEm2I; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CFFABA60002; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:00:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1BC20F.2010001@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:00:15 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> In-Reply-To: <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:00:30 -0000 On 01/21/2012 12:59 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Because fewer people are using tty environments (which is > basically what is meant here by "ASCII-only") ... No, by "ASCII-only" I meant displays that can display only ASCII. I use tty environments all the time, and they're never ASCII-only. > I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 > character set.... I don't know how to do this, and finding out > is going to be a lot of work. It shouldn't be a lot of work. I don't normally use the Linux console, but I looked into this problem and on my Ubuntu desktop the fix is simple: export LC_ALL=3Den_US.utf8 setupcon After executing these two shell commands, I can see directed quotes =E2=80=98like this=E2=80=99 with no problem, both within Emacs and= when catting to the terminal. If it matters, I'm running Ubuntu 11.10 x86 on a 5-year-old desktop. Does this approach work for you? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 03:18:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rosd9-000538-GN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:18:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45182) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rosd7-000532-5J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:18:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rosd6-0001aS-93 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:18:25 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:41956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rosd3-0001aG-HK; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:18:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60471A60007; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:18:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2xO6N+yfEr39; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E669A60002; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:18:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:18:21 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:18:25 -0000 On 01/21/2012 10:30 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > I can "deal with" nonascii characters, but some of them look rather ugl= y. > Some of them cause the display to get out of whack, probably due to > mismatch between how wide they really display and how wide Emacs thinks > they are. That shouldn't happen with the quote characters we're talking about, at least, it shouldn't happen on properly-configured platforms that are commonly used today. > Can you please send me a message containing the character proposed for = this? Sure: =E2=80=98foo=E2=80=99 -- directed single quotation marks (U+2018, U+2019) =E2=80=9Cfoo=E2=80=9D -- directed double quotation marks (U+201C, U+201D) If you're running a GNU/Linux distribution that works like Ubuntu, and you're on the Linux console, the following shell commands are meeded to configure the system properly for these characters. export LC_ALL=3Den_US.utf8 setupcon From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 04:36:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RotqO-00036U-PG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:36:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43596) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RotqL-00035N-Sl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:36:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RotqL-0001xE-13 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:36:09 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:33656) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RotqI-0001wo-Kd; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:36:06 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE149707AC; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:36:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 381E41A32C6; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:36:03 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:36:03 +0900 Message-ID: <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:36:10 -0000 Paul Eggert writes: > setupcon That would appear to be an Ubuntu-only command, or require a 3.x kernel if it's a Linux utility. I don't have it on either my Gentoo system or my Debian(!) system, both of which are reasonably up-to-date except for running late 2.6 kernels. IOW, it's nto that easy, Paul. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 05:22:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RouZD-0001QR-Fz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:22:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37492) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RouZA-0001OB-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:22:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RouYv-0006ir-MO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:22:28 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:23818 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RouYv-0006iT-6V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:22:13 -0500 Received: (qmail 14375 invoked by uid 3782); 22 Jan 2012 10:22:10 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9557632.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.118.50]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:22:07 +0100 Received: (qmail 3969 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Jan 2012 10:22:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:22:16 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: <20120122102215.GA3042@acm.acm> References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <4F1BC20F.2010001@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4F1BC20F.2010001@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:22:29 -0000 Morning, Paul. On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:00:15AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/21/2012 12:59 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Because fewer people are using tty environments (which is > > basically what is meant here by "ASCII-only") ... > No, by "ASCII-only" I meant displays that can display only ASCII. > I use tty environments all the time, and they're never ASCII-only. OK. > > I have an ordinary Linux tty, currently running a Latin-1 > > character set.... I don't know how to do this, and finding out > > is going to be a lot of work. > It shouldn't be a lot of work. I don't normally use the Linux > console, but I looked into this problem and on my Ubuntu desktop > the fix is simple: > export LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 > setupcon > After executing these two shell commands, I can see directed > quotes ‘like this’ with no problem, both within Emacs and when > catting to the terminal. If it matters, I'm running Ubuntu 11.10 > x86 on a 5-year-old desktop. > Does this approach work for you? So far I've been at it about 1½ hours and got nowhere. I tried setting LC_ALL (to en_UK.utf8), but haven't got `setupcon'. So I tried Gentoo's way, # /etc/init.d/consolefont restart , no joy. Then I grepped through Gentoo's repository index for setupcon, finding nothing. Then wikipedia - Nothing. Then Google - Hah! I found a man page. This talks about /etc/default/console-setup, yet gives no pointer to a description of that file. At this point I get the familiar feeling of being on a wild goose chase, which happens about every time I need to configure something new on Linux (thankfully, GNU is much easier). So a reversion to logic - whatever utility I use to set the font, that font must exist in /usr/share/consolefonts. But the font I'm already using, lat1-16.psfu.gz, allegedly "[has] a built-in Unicode mapping", whatever that might be. Yet I don't get the curly quotes displayed in Emacs (or anywhere else). > "It shouldn't be a lot of work." Maybe not, but there can be a large gap between "shouldn't be" and "won't be". Maybe you could give a run through of a hypothetical sequence of steps a tty user would go through to find out how to set up his console for this. Up to now it's taken nearly 2 hours now to get absolutely nowhere. Maybe I'm unusually inept at this sort of thing, but I don't think so. I had a head start by virtue of your help, for which thanks, but that misses the point, that it will be very strenuous for a normal tty user to get set up to see these curly quotes. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 05:54:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rov4V-0004KA-0u for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55935) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rov4T-0004JZ-35 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rov4S-00024G-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:49 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:44193) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rov4P-00023p-Ji; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C14AA60007; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:54:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mW0YPUrgXRgd; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 02ED7A60002; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:54:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:54:47 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020202090307030506040501" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:54:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020202090307030506040501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/22/2012 01:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > I don't have it on either my Gentoo system or my Debian(!) system It's from a Debian package, introduced in lenny (Debian GNU/Linux 5.0), which was released about three years ago. Here's a URL: http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/console-setup It's a GPLed shell script and is not that complicated -- it's a front end to help out people who don't want to understand Linux consoles (not that I blame them!). If you don't have setupcon, you can try this recipe instead, as its last two commands are what setupcon does, as far as fonts go: export LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 printf '\033%%G' setfont -v /usr/share/consolefonts/Uni2-Fixed16.psf.gz On 01/22/2012 02:22 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Maybe you could give a run through of a hypothetical sequence of steps a > tty user would go through to find out how to set up his console for this Do you have setfont? If so, do the above commands work? I'll attach a copy of the psf.gz file. (You can get its source from the above URL.) > it will be very strenuous for a normal tty user to get set up > to see these curly quotes. OK, but we're not talking about normal tty users. We're talking about the three Emacs developers who use Linux consoles to develop. 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(envelope-from ) id 1Rov4J-0004wU-8A; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:54:39 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:54:52 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:36:03 +0900 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, > Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com > > Paul Eggert writes: > > > setupcon > > That would appear to be an Ubuntu-only command, or require a 3.x > kernel if it's a Linux utility. I don't have it on either my Gentoo > system or my Debian(!) system, both of which are reasonably up-to-date > except for running late 2.6 kernels. AFAICS, setupcon is a shell script that invokes either consolechars or setfont (whichever it finds), and then invokes kbd_mode to set up the keyboard input as well. If you have those programs, you just need to steal the script from somewhere. (Caveat: I know absolutely nothing about this issue.) From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 06:56:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Row2Q-0002Cl-2Y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:56:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53736) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Row2N-0002Cf-J3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:56:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Row2M-0000F1-JY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:56:43 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:38373 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Row2M-0000Et-Ad for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:56:42 -0500 Received: (qmail 42416 invoked by uid 3782); 22 Jan 2012 11:56:41 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9557632.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.118.50]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:56:27 +0100 Received: (qmail 17997 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Jan 2012 11:56:36 -0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:56:36 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Message-ID: <20120122115636.GB3042@acm.acm> References: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:56:44 -0000 Hello, Paul. On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 02:54:47AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/22/2012 01:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > I don't have it on either my Gentoo system or my Debian(!) system > It's from a Debian package, introduced in lenny (Debian GNU/Linux 5.0), > which was released about three years ago. Here's a URL: > http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/console-setup > It's a GPLed shell script and is not that complicated -- it's a front > end to help out people who don't want to understand Linux consoles > (not that I blame them!). > If you don't have setupcon, you can try this recipe instead, as its > last two commands are what setupcon does, as far as fonts go: > export LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 > printf '\033%%G' > setfont -v /usr/share/consolefonts/Uni2-Fixed16.psf.gz > On 01/22/2012 02:22 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Maybe you could give a run through of a hypothetical sequence of steps a > > tty user would go through to find out how to set up his console for this > Do you have setfont? If so, do the above commands work? > I'll attach a copy of the psf.gz file. (You can get its source from > the above URL.) Yes, the setfont command above did indeed work. Presumably there will be several such fonts corresponding with the different ascii/Latin-1 fonts. For some reason, I didn't have that font in my /usr/share/consolefonts. > > it will be very strenuous for a normal tty user to get set up > > to see these curly quotes. > OK, but we're not talking about normal tty users. We're talking about the > three Emacs developers who use Linux consoles to develop. If we can > get a recipe working for them, then we've handled that problem. Are we? I think I've lost track of this discussion. I thought we were talking about putting curly quotes into doc strings, etc, where ordinary users are going to have to deal with them. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 08:30:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoxV1-0007FF-18 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:30:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58832) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoxUx-0007B4-K5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:30:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoxUw-0003mY-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:30:19 -0500 Received: from eagle.jhcloos.com ([207.210.242.212]:46645) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoxUu-0003mK-Lp; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:30:16 -0500 Received: by eagle.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id BC904400FB; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:29:50 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=eagle; t=1327239014; bh=ei/Q3rohQOpCBIUcpIDkbOaJkV0Ono6ikt0EwY3AG3E=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=J7S7qFQLVzuLrHKN+78VwRXN6QgE3wGoHYfLhhrs5dd0juU8eOmZjHMhKRsI466WL w7fTyoZWqKEHjsDpkTR16iv4bIpK/ItvM91H+A3w09ViSzuCFkUkZFia4FDmPu+0lQ 5FpoCAszaihih3J1rI549u5bEnHPTxFAUJRmlGoE= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id DD2C036004C; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:06:06 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <20120122102215.GA3042@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:22:16 +0000") References: <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <20120121085905.GA3075@acm.acm> <4F1BC20F.2010001@cs.ucla.edu> <20120122102215.GA3042@acm.acm> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2012 James Cloos OpenPGP: ED7DAEA6; url=http://jhcloos.com/public_key/0xED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:06:06 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:acm@muc.de::MSTTu6Bn5LpuZ21P:000000BcCKw X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:eggert@cs.ucla.edu::xJl7EfoxgG31M+Fj:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000BjS5g X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:eliz@gnu.org::GNRD4bxuMmosglcW:0000g+xtG X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:ulm@gentoo.org::dXIUhz+M+Ec63NKX:00xs4ix X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:drew.adams@oracle.com::9ZMFT+QZAWAcN7f0:000000000000000000000000000000000000000pPlif X-Hashcash: 1:30:120122:emacs-devel@gnu.org::MEQbXRi9XiT0z88m:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000Ma26Q Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 207.210.242.212 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:30:20 -0000 >>>>> "AM" =3D=3D Alan Mackenzie writes: AM> So far I've been at it about 1=BD hours and got nowhere. I tried set= ting AM> LC_ALL (to en_UK.utf8), but haven't got `setupcon'. So I tried Gento= o's AM> way,=20 Terminus likely is the best font to use on the console for utf8: media-fonts/terminus-font with the default USE flags will work well. In /etc/conf.d/consolefont set the consolefont variable. I use: consolefont=3D"ter-v20b" the v stands for utf8, 20 is a 10x20 pixel font, b is bold (use n for single pixel wide stems, b for two pixel wide stems). I do not set consoletranslation or unicodemap in that file. Set unicode=3D"YES" in /etc/rc.conf. The default /etc/env.d/02locale is: LC_COLLATE=3D"C" LC_TIME=3D"C" You may want to add LANG=3Den_UK.UTF-8 to that. Or add it to your $HOME shell startup script. I'd leave the two LC_ settings, though. They are important for portage. You might want to set dumpkeys_charset in /etc/conf.d/keymaps. The comment explains it. For that keymap config in that file, I find that emacs2 works quite well. On gentoo that is stored in /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/emacs2.map.gz. (The .map file is plain text.) That said, you might prefer "uk". Either way, though, I suspect that you'll find the quail input methods to be the only good way to enter non-ascii on the console. -JimC --=20 James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 09:08:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Roy66-0003eK-DO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:08:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57838) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rouby-0001nV-KF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:25:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roubx-0007C9-MT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:25:22 -0500 Received: from mta-out.inet.fi ([195.156.147.13]:58728 helo=jenni2.inet.fi) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Roubw-0007Bh-9Y; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:25:20 -0500 Received: from mithlond.arda (84.251.132.215) by jenni2.inet.fi (8.5.140.02) id 4EB3AFE103D47378; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:24:48 +0200 Received: from dtw by mithlond.arda with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RoubM-0003ZT-39; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:24:44 +0200 From: Teemu Likonen To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:36:03 +0900") References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:24:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87obtwnifn.fsf@mithlond.arda> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 195.156.147.13 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:08:40 -0500 Cc: Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , drew adams X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:25:23 -0000 * 2012-01-22T18:36:03+09:00 * Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Paul Eggert writes: >> setupcon > > That would appear to be an Ubuntu-only command, or require a 3.x > kernel if it's a Linux utility. I don't have it on either my Gentoo > system or my Debian(!) system, both of which are reasonably up-to-date > except for running late 2.6 kernels. In Debian the command /bin/setupcon is in the console-setup package. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 10:03:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RoyxJ-0002xV-6i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35286) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoyxG-0002v8-7b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoyxE-0005ic-VL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:38 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:59054) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoyxE-0005iY-SW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:36 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RoyxC-0005PB-FH; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:03:34 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: James Cloos In-reply-to: (message from James Cloos on Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:01:29 -0500) Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: acm@muc.de, ulm@gentoo.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:03:39 -0000 Noting that ASCII ` always was a grave accent, and never a quote, it seems that the proper fix for TeXinfo is to add one or more @foo commands to cover quotations which are not already covered. Texinfo uses ` and ' for quotes because that is the convention in TeX. This will not be changed. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 10:35:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RozS8-00006Z-TS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:35:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RozS7-00006S-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:35:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RozS6-00018x-9r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:35:31 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:34291) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RozS3-00018W-0p; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:35:27 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12AB97075E; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:35:23 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9F1061A32C6; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:35:23 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] In-Reply-To: <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:35:23 +0900 Message-ID: <87ehur698k.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:35:32 -0000 Paul Eggert writes: > On 01/22/2012 01:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > I don't have it on either my Gentoo system or my Debian(!) system > > It's from a Debian package, introduced in lenny (Debian GNU/Linux 5.0), > which was released about three years ago. Here's a URL: > > http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/console-setup Well, the system was installed as stable in early 2007 and since upgraded to testing (currently wheezy, plus some mission-critical stuff from sid that I'm willing to baby-sit because it's mission critical). But that package is not installed on my system, which is a common and up-to-date distribution. It's possible that new installs would always have it, but I suspect Emacs users are more likely to have ancient repeatedly updated systems than the average user. > If you don't have setupcon, you can try this recipe instead, It's not about me, OK? If I want it, I doubt it would take me more than half an hour to figure it out; I've been embedded in the world's most complex linguistic environment (at least as far as computer use goes) for 20 years, and was a recognized expert on the subject of internationalization of GNU/Linux systems a decade ago, though I've slipped quite a bit since then (obviously!) I don't really have an objection to using directed quotes in Emacs, as long as all the syntax tables and various things are set up correctly before public release (and I would not be surprised to find out that set up takes a while to shake down) -- at worst it should be annoying, not work-stopping. But I'd be willing to bet it's going to cause annoyance to more than the three Emacs developers using the Linux console if you start on it right now. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 11:34:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rp0My-0007C0-R2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:34:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49280) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp0Mw-0007Bt-3d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:34:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp0Mu-0007DV-Af for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:34:14 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35758) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp0Mt-0007DK-St for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:34:12 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp0Mq-0006WD-Ro for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:34:08 +0100 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:34:08 +0100 Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:34:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:33:55 +0100 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> <87ehur698k.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEWCenKbl5MOBQWgnpqU ko7NyLRpUEQ9IR/WqZ1NAAACVUlEQVQ4jX2UQXObMBCFhU3E1Sq4vqY6WFcYN+RaJnK5xgflLGNn dQVKpb/fXeE0sTPtztge9tPb94QMTGshRL67KVEwXYhciOoWaBYVN5KquoC8ErsrjcgJRMm1JiqK hjzEZ/OL4IpU+T9AVHyfR+WfwCyp8o9EkLmY416NyqNH8/+4eUQ/GFYSgQ9zAUDP2JJGcssRDKu7 FXhIjDGWpviSJdUKwbfD/pCp8fgGeIqhSq3ZL+wE6LYXUKZEI9gZ48EpAmgM5M74k2a/DQGQe2NO tS3PrOQ2OTeavRrzDAEk/p5aveGLrM+GAUfdGfPiVIig7nnLw7SBI6ay5rCG0BFITq13fDG1XxI8 QWVeXgGcBGOWfTvV8Nj3rSgQPDwz3PVoyaM/c1tjsAaBXJccnB9x1NK5zLrWt8cBPWSK692cytbh BMG7fsK40uMuuFOYbmnr+9x2U1gkGFcG5cF2fk2KDHZ2M2UbTR5SBgJsbU5u+hr6x+Enb/IIZG8z AvEuAVj84ChFALJg94bhfU3wwCuxIjBK6a0L9tUwC8xGEVAqBFvIJJzMktuOJivuE822CJSjBA9L 5mWsLaQ4ymF/lGPAgSxglxaGNKbawiidksqfcVLoqXEkEDx3MqBkArLwZIKpME8H1JajZ93spyym wr9aCKPCM5STxWZ3T6MaUjg82VEiGChtR6PgqWDO47mqGGY4dpdUHBUQXAR4OaTdvI9ozj2GvQC2 eNtgNA/ysu5Y2PkG81TT86EbHb8KfHnoBp+UAi/jC+C9CoSxfQX+SiO5VnyoP2a2Bj36n6VFAAAA AElFTkSuQmCC Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Sandy Denny's _Complete Recordings 3 (Fairport Convention: What We Did On Our Holidays & Unhalfbricking)_: "Fairport Convention - Fotheringay" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:G6EXNhmvtAp4J7f8bI7KwhoFsfw= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:34:15 -0000 "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > But I'd be willing to bet it's going to cause annoyance to more than > the three Emacs developers using the Linux console if you start on it > right now. If I ssh from my cell phone, and use Emacs under that, all unicode-ish characters turn into four-letter monstrosities, which renders the text unreadable. I think it's about a decade too soon to think about making a change from ASCII-mostly help texts in Emacs. Maybe (just maybe) these things will work better in 2022, and we can start discussing it again. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 15:35:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rp48A-0005Go-TT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:35:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56993) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp488-0005Gi-75 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:35:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp487-0000O1-AJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:35:12 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:35294) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp484-0000Mu-8J; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:35:08 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EF0A60004; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99px03gGoOmC; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7A3F7A60002; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:35:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1C72F4.9000005@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:35:00 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> <87k44k5bb0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4F1BEAF7.8010003@cs.ucla.edu> <20120122115636.GB3042@acm.acm> In-Reply-To: <20120122115636.GB3042@acm.acm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Eli Zaretskii , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 20:35:13 -0000 On 01/22/2012 03:56 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > I thought we were talking about putting curly quotes into doc strings, > etc, where ordinary users are going to have to deal with them. No, the idea is doc strings would be automatically formatted for the user's display, and that this would use ASCII quotes unless Emacs is on a display that can handle curly quotes. In other words, curly quotes would appear in the Emacs source, but they're not necessarily what the Emacs user would see. I am not proposing that .texi format be changed. There's no need for that, as Texinfo already generates different quoting styles depending on the output technology, and its current input format already suffices. Nor am I worried about people ssh-ing from their cell phone to develop Emacs. If and when that becomes practical, we can fix it for developers, much as we already have a fix for developers who use Linux consoles. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 17:19:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rp5lX-0000t9-Pl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:19:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38956) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp5lU-0000qI-Aa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:19:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp5lP-0002i6-IL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:19:56 -0500 Received: from fmmailgate03.web.de ([217.72.192.234]:51341) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rp5lN-0002hi-6x; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:19:49 -0500 Received: from moweb002.kundenserver.de (moweb002.kundenserver.de [172.19.20.108]) by fmmailgate03.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9191B05D211; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:19:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from snow ([217.185.137.245]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0LfRiT-1SQfYN0ZD7-00pVuW; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:19:44 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:21:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:46 +0200") Message-ID: <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:gJ0a70txdR1I/4aYZ6wVGmvxZwVBS5DlUJT8Yv0CN3W jIWcn3mrWkrNm5nEv49oashEjC1xzS6itPEsfdPo2xJv6Sq6S4 UeN7lEURQ7bJMjK4v0xL+WHdhmvfGfteboC014T5vh9ThgH5mg V5r891BPZ1y991oBbyshCYAxuYNs5steDza0e17PzgYaaxvkY2 PJBLjzdVIqlDnBeTituHwVZjO1Rc6XFBev8/+TnJ9M= Sender: Michael_Heerdegen@web.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-Received-From: 217.72.192.234 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:19:57 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > But let's take this particular example: How would you like the newline > to be displayed for the user to understand there's a selectable > newline there? If we replace the "\n" with a "_", the *Completions* > display is like this: > > Possible completions are: > _ aaaa > bbbb cccc > > What would you say the display should look like with \n instead of _, > and which part(s) of the corresponding screen line would need to be > highlighted when the mouse hovers over the newline? Most importantly, > given the display you want to see, how would the user understand she > is suggested a selectable newline? If _ is replaced by a newline character, your example would look like that, I guess: Possible completions are: aaaa bbbb cccc since AFAIK the newline character breaks the visual line. So, the whole first line should be highlighted. The 'mouse-face property should appear exactly on the same space where a 'highlight property would be shown. Actually, this is already the case, but: the highlighting gets only "activated" when the mouse pointer is over a printable character. With other words: there is a discrepancy between what gets highlighted, and where the mouse pointer must be to get the highlighting shown. Currently, if there is a newline character, the highlighting is shown until the end of the line. But if I move the mouse pointer there, the highlighting disappears, although I never left the area of the highlighting. Besides, in the `completing-read' example, you can also _select_ the newline candidate when you click near the end of the line. So, currently, the space where the highlighting is "activated" also doesn't correspond to the space where the candidate can be selected. > Well, I asked for those _situations_ leading to these lists of > candidates to be described. TIA. - All commands that prompt for a piece of text to insert may show candidates including newlines, even empty lines. For example a command that prompts for an entry of the kill ring to insert, showing the available pieces of text as completion candidates (or clickable text). Many people use something like that. - dired. Some people like filenames including newlines. I don't, but I want that dired works for files with any name. filenames appear in *Completions* if you do C or R or something like that in dired. - In Icicles, there are many situations where candidates including newlines can appear, be it showing history items for `repeat-complex-command', or `icicle-search'. > Also, are completion candidates the only situations where these > problems arise? The original issue you raised was much more general, > AFAIU. It's not forbidden to mouse-face arbitrary multi-line text. E.g. in *ielm* or *shell*, if you move the mouse over a previous input, it is mouse-faced. There, input is allowed to be multiline. > Btw, in Emacs 23, you couldn't even select such a newline, neither > with a mouse click nor with a RET: you'd get "\naaaa" instead of a > lone "\n". In Emacs 24, at least you can select the newline alone. Good, that's an improvement. Thanks, Michael. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 22 21:52:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpA18-0000O5-Nc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:52:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41353) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpA16-0000MA-Kt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:52:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpA15-0003Jj-FT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:52:20 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpA15-0003Jf-Bx; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:52:19 -0500 Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so5081605iad.0 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K5qFE5LJdoH0sguUgLiK0tErjNhGpcnfoX2P3UZ5qP8=; b=flppYHYyFyG7MItEKIIQTh4VR9L6ZEWZTFBubY0lVcueWRYOOIegzak2kLr23j44y8 BwF2NiOBIbWT4v/3RMZOlRRrc2X+gmwK2TkuPbAjswRDZGr7SGsBLZfZa8nF5sK4MMiN fSLgUBmkBRh0Ru/hZWyCz6OEDBf5js8Wf9MFk= Received: by 10.50.42.199 with SMTP id q7mr7195706igl.9.1327287137730; Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kh9sm1930652igc.1.2012.01.22.18.52.16 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1CCB5A.7070102@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:52:10 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel Subject: emacs-20120122-r106910 Windows Binaries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:52:21 -0000 The Emacs Trunk Windows Binaries (bzr revno 106910) have been published in http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 gnutls-3.0.9 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 01:48:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpDhz-0004vG-9I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDhw-0004vA-BY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDhu-0000io-Sq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDhu-0000ik-RN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:46 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDhu-0003VC-FW; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:46 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: michael_heerdegen@web.de In-reply-to: <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:21:05 +0100) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:48:49 -0000 > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:21:05 +0100 > > > Possible completions are: > > _ aaaa > > bbbb cccc > > > > What would you say the display should look like with \n instead of _, > > and which part(s) of the corresponding screen line would need to be > > highlighted when the mouse hovers over the newline? Most importantly, > > given the display you want to see, how would the user understand she > > is suggested a selectable newline? > > If _ is replaced by a newline character, your example would look like > that, I guess: > > Possible completions are: > > aaaa > bbbb cccc > > since AFAIK the newline character breaks the visual line. So, the whole > first line should be highlighted. Isn't that confusing, though? I think many users will not understand what they are being shown. Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, e.g. "" or some such. > The 'mouse-face property should appear exactly on the same space where a > 'highlight property would be shown. Actually, this is already the case, > but: the highlighting gets only "activated" when the mouse pointer is > over a printable character. With other words: there is a discrepancy > between what gets highlighted, and where the mouse pointer must be to > get the highlighting shown. Currently, if there is a newline character, > the highlighting is shown until the end of the line. But if I move the > mouse pointer there, the highlighting disappears, although I never left > the area of the highlighting. Besides, in the `completing-read' > example, you can also _select_ the newline candidate when you click near > the end of the line. So, currently, the space where the highlighting is > "activated" also doesn't correspond to the space where the candidate can > be selected. These are all side effects of the fact that a newline has no glyph that is displayed on the screen. We are trying to highlight and select an object that doesn't exist on the screen. Again, if we want to handle these cases, we need some way of producing a tangible display of a newline. > - All commands that prompt for a piece of text to insert may show > candidates including newlines, even empty lines. For example a > command that prompts for an entry of the kill ring to insert, showing > the available pieces of text as completion candidates (or clickable > text). Many people use something like that. > > - dired. Some people like filenames including newlines. I don't, but I > want that dired works for files with any name. filenames appear in > *Completions* if you do C or R or something like that in dired. > > - In Icicles, there are many situations where candidates including > newlines can appear, be it showing history items for > `repeat-complex-command', or `icicle-search'. Candidates that just include newlines are not the problem. Candidates that include _only_ newlines are. Anyway, please feel free to file a wishlist bug report about this. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 02:04:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpDws-0007Qy-0w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDwl-0007KU-11 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDwi-0002oD-Ml for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDwi-0002o9-L8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:04 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpDwg-0004Vp-RQ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:04:02 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Paul Eggert In-reply-to: <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:18:21 -0800) Subject: Re: quotation marks [was Re: TUTORIAL.de updated] References: <20120118.161204.348826368.wl@gnu.org> <20248.15413.907023.894588@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <4x1uqv4pbx.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> <056566D61BA5441E860782777E736F44@us.oracle.com> <4F18A26A.1020402@cs.ucla.edu> <20120120074922.GA3095@acm.acm> <4F1929BA.7020004@cs.ucla.edu> <838vl24thl.fsf@gnu.org> <4F19E7FC.40301@cs.ucla.edu> <83zkdh2zfz.fsf@gnu.org> <4F1BC64D.7080906@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: acm@muc.de, eliz@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 07:04:11 -0000 ‘foo’ -- directed single quotation marks (U+2018, U+2019) “foo” -- directed double quotation marks (U+201C, U+201D) On each line, both quotes display alike for me. But at least they look like quotes. setupcon gives me lots of errors; I guess it doesn't work in this version. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 06:17:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpHuP-0004m4-MS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42399) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpHuN-0004jW-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpHuM-00082W-Gy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:55 -0500 Received: from caibbdcaaaaf.dreamhost.com ([208.113.200.5]:36064 helo=homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpHuM-00082O-8Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:54 -0500 Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087FA3A4065; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 03:17:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=cfraizer.com; h=from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=cfraizer.com; b=V9ZnGHC60bFi hB0pp0qFSvwsgu81ipeB7L0rgMDFmvSZIl5pyB4Xg1GWa3kDCq307/hYnb3f5oFz q1y+8vxxo3zJlzYw8od6mnjV0a9FUmJ7/ulnNoDRNv3y7WGNmDi4zPU1Csmy1iEn umcfi+jk7BrP8pNbuu+NUEUPXvdH9oA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cfraizer.com; h=from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding; s=cfraizer.com; bh=/JLE2XXeBn2HBnYeML ccWVtrcc8=; b=XwCZl2PA4rCnsHUwAD4s5Hv1knW5EwSAAmEY2QPxHgQHVTsvR4 oHt36g4Gy0OA90Cx12vY3Yk4qeTE4tAMhg/wATNLv7YmEl+jIB60GExKxAeo0EAW Ee3HwPr7p5kt9ZsW1kkUF3NJfYKg/pFexJtE0kfRdFRPA65N8uUSaxoWM= Received: from colinfhp (unknown [209.43.1.25]) (Authenticated sender: emacs-devel@cfraizer.com) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 908FE3A4074; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 03:17:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Colin Fraizer" To: Subject: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:34 -0500 Message-ID: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 thread-index: AczZv9hZC+EFhAbJQyOb4yVfta2H/A== Content-Language: en-us x-ms-exchange-organization-originalclientipaddress: 172.17.30.56 x-ms-exchange-organization-originalserveripaddress: fe80::69d9:b14a:ac05:704e%11 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Windows 98 (1) X-Received-From: 208.113.200.5 Cc: t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:17:56 -0000 In 2009, Tomohiro Matsuyama sent a message to this list with a patch to add lookahead/lookbehind assertions to Emacs regular expressions (regexps). Is there any plan to incorporate this useful feature into an official release? [IMHO, it is incredibly useful. The only responses to Matsuyama-san's message were positive.] Thanks, --Colin From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 09:11:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpKcI-0007PG-0D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35707) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKcC-0007Lu-0q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKc7-0005uP-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:19 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:13132) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKc7-0005uA-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:15 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAHhpHU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDriSBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgPuBqMJgSIO5pzhFc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158200689" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Jan 2012 09:11:09 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8846258D29; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:09 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Colin Fraizer" Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:11:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> (Colin Fraizer's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:17:34 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:11:24 -0000 > In 2009, Tomohiro Matsuyama sent a message to this list with a patch > to add lookahead/lookbehind assertions to Emacs regular expressions > (regexps). Is there any plan to incorporate this useful feature into > an official release? > [IMHO, it is incredibly useful. The only responses to Matsuyama-san's > message were positive.] I'd like to replace the current regexp engine with one that does not suffer from exponential blowup (i.e. using "Thompson's NFA"). Every feature added to the current regexp engine will make it more difficult to switch, so I'm not too thrilled at the idea of adding lookaround operators. OTOH, noone has submitted code to replace the current regexp engine, and I don't forsee I'll have the time to write it myself, so maybe I should just give up on this plan. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 09:27:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpKsH-0006Pc-VR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41080) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKsB-0006NP-Vw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKs2-0000SU-JQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:51 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:64001) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpKrx-0000Rn-L7; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:37 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAN9tHU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABChQmpG4EGgXIBAQQBIzMjBQsJAhoCGA4CAhQYDSSID6cJkRKBL4lhgRYEiDuac4RX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158204192" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Jan 2012 09:27:36 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2CB9758D29; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Message-ID: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:27:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:48:46 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:27:56 -0000 > Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable > newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, > e.g. "" or some such. I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). There are other similar issues in the *Completions* lists if you have completions which start/end with spaces or tabs, are very long, or worse only contain spaces or tabs: while the mouse-over will be reasonably clear, the list is far from clear if you don't move your mouse over it to see the exact boundaries. Currently, completions are used for entities which typically don't suffer from such issues. But if we want to use it for things like yank-browse (see sample code below), we need to make it handle such cases a bit better. Stefan (defun yank-browse (string) "Browse the `kill-ring' to choose which entry to yank." (interactive (minibuffer-with-setup-hook #'minibuffer-completion-help (let* ((kills (delete-dups (append kill-ring-yank-pointer kill-ring ni= l))) (entries (mapcar (lambda (string) (let ((pos 0)) ;; FIXME: Maybe we should start by removing ;; all properties. (setq string (copy-sequence string)) (while (string-match "\n" string pos) ;; FIXME: Maybe completion--insert-strings should ;; do that for us. (put-text-property (match-beginning 0) (match-end 0) 'display (eval-when-compile (propertize "\\n" 'face 'escape-glyp= h)) string) (setq pos (match-end 0))) ;; FIXME: We may use the window-width of the ;; wrong window. (when (>=3D (* 3 (string-width string)) (* 2 (window-width))) (let ((half (- (/ (window-width) 3) 1))) ;; FIXME: We're using char-counts rather than ;; width-count. (put-text-property half (- (length string) half) 'display (eval-when-compile (propertize "=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6" '= face 'escape-glyph)) string))) string)) kills)) (table (lambda (string pred action) (cond ((eq action 'metadata) '(metadata (category . kill-ring))) (t (complete-with-action action entries string pred))))= )) ;; FIXME: We should return the entry from the kill-ring rather than ;; the entry from the completion-table. ;; FIXME: substring completion doesn't work well because it only mat= ches ;; subtrings before the first \n. ;; FIXME: completion--insert-strings assumes that boundaries of ;; candidates are obvious enough, but with kill-ring entries this is= not ;; true, so we'd probably want to display them with =C2=AB...=C2=BB = around them. (list (completing-read "Yank: " table nil t))))) (setq this-command 'yank) (insert-for-yank string)) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 09:43:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpL7i-0002U0-8Q for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46874) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL7f-0002TY-GS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL7e-0002ps-Dd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:51 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:44109) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL7V-0002f5-4S; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:41 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so2019364lag.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:43:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=bFE4uHAIIt5/ZCUFHXz4T0F4ZI9SEqrQULln+lRgUFc=; b=P3DJeM49FYUJwU2MrC1iVA/Ji4WxuLmd8n/LvK5Xl6Sg0CW5oiG3Txbra2KhseKqW8 LlpZNpGbqCjfcZ32N4NSQI953hL/BTjN2vxSrjnHd/D2C3PA29iHfBG1sUSAxL5/WmIM l8nsqyCkj1jWDrFUh4WROuBMiuZQIdfh1B8h4= Received: by 10.152.131.40 with SMTP id oj8mr4526832lab.24.1327329819207; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:43:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.97.11 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:43:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:43:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:43:52 -0000 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 15:27, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable >> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, >> e.g. "" or some such. > > I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other > places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). Why not show "\n" with a special background face? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 09:44:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpL8e-0002z4-ER for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:44:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45452) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL8X-0002xf-T3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:44:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL8S-0002ys-3c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:44:45 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45403) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL8R-0002yl-RO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:44:40 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RpL8Q-0000IN-Cf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:38 +0100 Received: from 94-21-76-61.pool.digikabel.hu ([94.21.76.61]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:38 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 94-21-76-61.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:44:21 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 94.21.76.61 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:44:51 -0000 Stefan Monnier iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > > OTOH, noone has submitted code to replace the current regexp engine, and > I don't forsee I'll have the time to write it myself, so maybe I should > just give up on this plan. > Why not use simply PCRE with a bridge layer which translates from emacs regexp format to PCRE? AFAIK the emacs regexes are more or less a subset of PCRE, so the translation shouldn't be very difficult. Why reinvent the wheel when PCRE is already there? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 09:51:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpLEb-0005Af-4j for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:51:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37913) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLEV-00059k-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:50:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLER-0003oT-6D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:50:55 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:49491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLER-0003oE-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:50:51 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120441C0F583; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:50:49 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: DNLmfLxQnbDOf71TTRVM10CaFW5J3J99c4Yf6kTyr8Q= Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-98-175.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.98.175]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 06C771C00122; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:50:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 457DFCA29A; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:50:47 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Tom Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> X-Yow: He probably just wants to take over my CELLS and then EXPLODE inside me like a BARREL of runny CHOPPED LIVER! Or maybe he'd like to PSYCHOLOGICALLY TERRORIZE ME until I have no objection to a RIGHT-WING MILITARY TAKEOVER of my apartment!! I guess I should call AL PACINO! Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:50:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Tom's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:44:21 +0000 (UTC)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:51:00 -0000 Tom writes: > Why not use simply PCRE with a bridge layer which translates from emacs > regexp format to PCRE? AFAIK the emacs regexes are more or less a subset > of PCRE, so the translation shouldn't be very difficult. Does PCRE implement \c and \s? Does PCRE provide an interface for searching a memory region with a gap? Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 10:20:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpLh9-0005nF-6E for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:20:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLh2-0005lN-GX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:20:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLgt-0000KU-4G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:20:24 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:60347) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLgr-0000JQ-Se for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:20:14 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLgo-000228-6j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:20:10 +0100 Received: from 94-21-76-61.pool.digikabel.hu ([94.21.76.61]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:20:10 +0100 Received: from adatgyujto by 94-21-76-61.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:20:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Tom Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:19:58 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 94.21.76.61 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.10.229 Version/11.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:20:29 -0000 Andreas Schwab linux-m68k.org> writes: > > Tom gmail.com> writes: > > > Why not use simply PCRE with a bridge layer which translates from emacs > > regexp format to PCRE? AFAIK the emacs regexes are more or less a subset > > of PCRE, so the translation shouldn't be very difficult. > > Does PCRE implement \c and \s? If it doesn't then it's a job for the translation layer. Char syntaxes and categories could be converted into the standard [...] format. I don't know how efficient it would be, it should be tested, but pcre can compile regexps too. I don't know if emacs uses some precompiled format internally if the same regexp is used again and again. > Does PCRE provide an interface for searching a memory region with a gap? > I don't know it should be checked, but other editors use PCRE as their regex search engine, so there may be some support for that. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 10:32:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpLsR-00011B-EG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:32:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40347) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLsK-00010N-Hg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:32:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLsE-00029R-PE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:32:04 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:7703) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLsE-00029K-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:31:58 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAEF8HU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABCriaBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA+4K4wmBIg7mnOEVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158219498" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Jan 2012 10:31:55 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9135158D29; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:31:52 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Tom Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:31:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Tom's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:44:21 +0000 (UTC)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:32:10 -0000 >> OTOH, noone has submitted code to replace the current regexp engine, and >> I don't forsee I'll have the time to write it myself, so maybe I should >> just give up on this plan. > Why not use simply PCRE with a bridge layer which translates from emacs > regexp format to PCRE? AFAIK the emacs regexes are more or less a subset > of PCRE, so the translation shouldn't be very difficult. AFAIK PCRE uses a backtracking implementation, so suffers from the same exponential blowup as the current code. > Why reinvent the wheel when PCRE is already there? I didn't mean to say that I want a fresh new engine written from scratch. But adding pcre to the list of libraries linked with Emacs is not nearly enough: someone has to write the bridge layer and it may turn out not to be as simple as it seems. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 10:34:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpLuo-0001mF-MJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37505) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLuh-0001l3-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLub-0002az-JI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:31 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:3736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpLuS-0002Yv-9F; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:16 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EACZ9HU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABCriaBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAs0EhQYDSSID7gpjCYEiDuac4RX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158219900" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Jan 2012 10:34:13 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id A356358D29; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:10 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Message-ID: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:34:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:43:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:34:37 -0000 >>> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable >>> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, >>> e.g. "" or some such. >> I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other >> places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). > Why not show "\n" with a special background face? Which part of (propertize "\\n" 'face 'escape-glyph) makes you think that we wouldn't want to show \n with a special background face? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 10:41:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpM1L-0003dr-FS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:41:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50372) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpM1F-0003cV-AL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:41:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpM19-0003c0-FZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:41:17 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:59490) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpM12-0003aa-Np; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:41:04 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so2066326lag.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 07:41:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=9uuGTm5CQeNoWnCAaSvkJQJdOJByT4xtmYBDYA3aIeE=; b=A4tLpZLxu0/F+x0n4bFHpbP5Y1nP+aNat2QbnG7Ksvo/oqpwr5U7wipywkJJcpuPrW MLE9o9DwySMoanwYo//zY+F56gIg3FNwH7IJ/siZ4Mq1Fhatii56DvefGV9Wnd7Bd+vC eVtXvVsN+jTWjyeL8ABIbAWgWN0CYyrf/4a08= Received: by 10.152.131.40 with SMTP id oj8mr4637955lab.24.1327333263645; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 07:41:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.97.11 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 07:40:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:40:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:41:23 -0000 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 16:34, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable >>>> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, >>>> e.g. "" or some such. >>> I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other >>> places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). >> Why not show "\n" with a special background face? > > Which part of (propertize "\\n" 'face 'escape-glyph) makes you think > that we wouldn't want to show \n with a special background face? ;-) Sorry. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 11:15:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpMXz-00038P-O5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:15:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35533) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpMXt-00034p-FP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:15:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpMXk-0008KW-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:15:01 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:35824) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpMXk-0008KK-Dz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:14:52 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CCD180013E; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:14:50 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: ywM2Iyf1T2hCf6MavtTYqjjQIjgSCOkbP/uM5IHW/ys= Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-98-175.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.98.175]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5BD491C001F9; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:14:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id F0A73CA29A; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:14:49 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Tom Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> X-Yow: - if it GLISTENS, gobble it!! Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:14:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Tom's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:19:58 +0000 (UTC)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:15:06 -0000 Tom writes: > Andreas Schwab linux-m68k.org> writes: > >> >> Tom gmail.com> writes: >> >> > Why not use simply PCRE with a bridge layer which translates from emacs >> > regexp format to PCRE? AFAIK the emacs regexes are more or less a subset >> > of PCRE, so the translation shouldn't be very difficult. >> >> Does PCRE implement \c and \s? > > If it doesn't then it's a job for the translation layer. Char syntaxes > and categories could be converted into the standard [...] format. Enumerating the syntax/category members is not an option. There is no easy way to do that. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 11:49:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpN5j-0007nE-1h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:49:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47269) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpN5c-0007ll-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:49:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpN5X-0004d8-2p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:49:52 -0500 Received: from icebox.esperi.org.uk ([81.187.191.129]:36945 helo=mail.esperi.org.uk) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpN5W-0004co-LB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:49:47 -0500 Received: from esperi.org.uk (nix@spindle.srvr.nix [192.168.14.15]) by mail.esperi.org.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0NGnbBO021591; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:49:37 GMT Received: (from nix@localhost) by esperi.org.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0NGnbe6021975; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:49:37 GMT From: Nix To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Memory again References: <4ED0F945.5090805@yandex.ru> <83pqge7syw.fsf@gnu.org> <87mxb6tkji.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87borlu0kc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <4EEE0315.60405@yandex.ru> <4EEEF5B4.3050806@yandex.ru> Emacs: because one operating system isn't enough. Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:49:37 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:26:26 -0500") Message-ID: <87vco2cqji.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-STAT_FI_X86_64_VIRTUAL-Metrics: spindle 1245; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 81.187.191.129 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:49:57 -0000 On 19 Dec 2011, Stefan Monnier outgrape: >>> I agree that we're probably going to see better overall results by >>> improving general memory use than by trying to attack >>> fragmentation problems. >> Among this list's subscribers, Nix is constantly >> reporting an enormous memory usage caused by Gnus. > > I think we still have a leak there somewhere. Confirmed. With Dmitry's immediate-string patch (which works perfectly otherwise): RSS VSZ USER STIME 720696 1008752 gnus Jan07 242740 525592 hacking 2011 Despite running for less than half the time, the Gnus Emacs is twice the size. It bloats more slowly than without Dmitry's patch, but it still bloats. I suspect that the only way I'll be able to provide a reproducible recipe for this is to instrument Emacs to record all allocations and GCs and when they happen, so that someone else can play this back to observe WTF is going on. Doing this compactly enough to run over weeks without serving as a DoS-attack on my own system may be... interesting. I haven't done any work toward this yet though. -- NULL && (void) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 12:11:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpNQZ-0002F4-5W for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37256) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpNQW-0002AF-Iq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpNQV-0007Xz-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:28 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:36457) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpNQV-0007Xt-J1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:27 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAFWTHU9MCos2/2dsb2JhbABDrieBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA+4N4wmBIg7mnOEVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158249932" Received: from 76-10-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.139.54]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Jan 2012 12:11:26 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 6763A58D29; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:26 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Andreas Schwab Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Schwab's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:14:49 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:11:29 -0000 >> If it doesn't then it's a job for the translation layer. Char syntaxes >> and categories could be converted into the standard [...] format. > Enumerating the syntax/category members is not an option. Indeed. > There is no easy way to do that. For `categories', there is a way, but the result is a *very* large [...] chunk, so it's impractical. For `syntax' there is indeed no way, since the syntax of a char doesn't only depend on the char itself but also of the `char-table' text-property that might be applied to that particular character position (and of course, if we ignore this problem, we're still back to the same problem of enormous [...] expressions, as is the case for categories). These entities really need to be implemented inside the regexp-engine (but they're usually pretty easy to implement there). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 13:45:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpOtK-0002TJ-31 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:45:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43726) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOtC-0002T3-SP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:45:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOtB-0005nt-2x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:45:10 -0500 Received: from mail-ee0-f41.google.com ([74.125.83.41]:54739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOtA-0005nI-OC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:45:09 -0500 Received: by eekc13 with SMTP id c13so1271034eek.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:45:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bTdKjjicYnhLQ/t3+s3LRs+wBZeUDvYPHpeRz+oYgw8=; b=DJQYFc3/Mt+ovFpE3IQQKey9vfo34BrIS8mKm06O8nqNF26glkKJ4ldouYD/NLrvEB n2AW4lBNgjEVHJhlueeHkixAsRWtiAbpVLHytWuUpO6BxCPtczuex9WnhQyq4KMlNMSU B+o5Q6joSu3nWgGW/QDxKdAbjWW1JXUJvW8Tg= Received: by 10.14.9.150 with SMTP id 22mr3309043eet.105.1327344307238; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (176.119.broadband10.iol.cz. [90.177.119.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y12sm57000542eeb.11.2012.01.23.10.45.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:45:04 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?B?xaB0xJtww6FuIE7Em21lYw==?= To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:26 -0500") References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:45:00 +0100 Message-ID: <874nvm1cnn.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.83.41 Cc: Andreas Schwab , Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:45:17 -0000 On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:11:26 +0100 Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> If it doesn't then it's a job for the translation layer. Char syntaxes >>> and categories could be converted into the standard [...] format. >> Enumerating the syntax/category members is not an option. > > Indeed. > >> There is no easy way to do that. > > For `categories', there is a way, but the result is a *very* large [...] > chunk, so it's impractical. For `syntax' there is indeed no way, since > the syntax of a char doesn't only depend on the char itself but also of > the `char-table' text-property that might be applied to that particular > character position (and of course, if we ignore this problem, we're > still back to the same problem of enormous [...] expressions, as is the > case for categories). > These entities really need to be implemented inside the regexp-engine > (but they're usually pretty easy to implement there). OTOH using something like PCRE would finally fix the currently erroneous implementation of classes like [:space:], which now is the same as \s-. (And personally I would gladly forgo the syntax categories for standard [:classes:], although I imagine the former might be used by the font-locking or somewhere... I never felt the need for them.) --=20 =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 13:47:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpOv8-0003CW-83 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:47:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44218) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOv4-000374-7x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:47:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOv3-00064F-1m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:47:06 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:36266) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpOv2-000649-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:47:05 -0500 Received: by ggnk5 with SMTP id k5so1681894ggn.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=F8J2bfh/Rj0TxSi7pcSRmy2aJ10M5xhY7+e9sjssz0E=; b=AiQ5w2LMntg59qinmADxfnzhMTdt5xgv6VlE3kEG8IlBXnftyZ4ypEV908LFEzuVT/ vF63q6M3y5VM3asRkBepdObvAO/VolLwidxKA/P4tPYYTFuBFLRf0DAvbimiiR9RS5eN owHYMyHBCPBuuxABQOKtYOiNVf7Rxww65FcEw= Received: by 10.50.196.228 with SMTP id ip4mr11033795igc.28.1327344424078; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cv10sm18299646igc.0.2012.01.23.10.47.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:02 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> To: Emacs developers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:47:07 -0000 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 16:34, Stefan Monnier = wrote: >> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable >> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, >> e.g. "" or some such. >=20 > I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other > places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 15:44:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpQl9-0007O0-NU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53351) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpQl7-0007MZ-DA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpQl6-0004tI-DN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:57 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:42776) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpQl6-0004tE-5Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:44:56 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LY900H00QVEQF00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:54 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.18.29]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LY900HZRQYUC050@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:54 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:58 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property In-reply-to: <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> To: chad Message-id: <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:44:58 -0000 > From: chad > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:02 -0800 >=20 > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 16:34, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable > >> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines= , > >> e.g. "" or some such. > >=20 > > I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many = other > > places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). >=20 > Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? What will that do on a TTY? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 16:09:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpR9H-0004Ok-PG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:09:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59439) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpR9F-0004O5-Cl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:09:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpR9D-00084o-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:09:53 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:55311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpR9C-00084c-Fw; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:09:50 -0500 Received: by ggnk5 with SMTP id k5so1798266ggn.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:09:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=oh4pgM0jTkyc5qpezoI1FqaXuY+Ab0GQ9S8djz2lfC4=; b=ZOTWHhwf60scgehVm1Sc01TPP1/oQ+NoLDehCKJYqXf7mUZv1OBiQ/aqNj44U21/6/ T1e7ROZXdELRX7qcxCyw8PfAqYmu/BE0RFeq48GfcoiHKaQOtbip3DcdNPSi3myTCa97 cz4+SFNVd7f87ehsbWh2+HX6HR7ecM/V4jf5Q= Received: by 10.50.76.225 with SMTP id n1mr11647447igw.11.1327352988232; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t1sm3327902igw.7.2012.01.23.13.09.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18650488-AD22-4621-8C2C-59F1C1D9D380" From: chad In-Reply-To: <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:09:45 -0800 Message-Id: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:09:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_18650488-AD22-4621-8C2C-59F1C1D9D380 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jan 23, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: chad >> Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? >=20 > What will that do on a TTY? The same thing that quotation marks do, ala:=20 = http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-01/msg00649.html and = http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-01/msg00722.html *Chad --Apple-Mail=_18650488-AD22-4621-8C2C-59F1C1D9D380 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful = here?

What will that do on a = TTY?

The same thing that = quotation marks do, ala: 

= and

*Chad

= --Apple-Mail=_18650488-AD22-4621-8C2C-59F1C1D9D380-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 20:47:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpVTU-0005rY-GJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:47:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpVTS-0005rS-BK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:47:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpVTR-0000sc-7V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:47:02 -0500 Received: from msv5.zenno.net ([125.53.25.155]:51165) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpVTQ-0000sO-Jt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:47:01 -0500 Received: (qmail 32936 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2012 10:46:53 +0900 Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo-b0c22c0d) (nil@mad.dog.cx@110.66.21.70) by msv5.zenno.net with SMTP; 24 Jan 2012 10:46:53 +0900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 References: <87sjjb4rju.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:46:53 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "HIROSHI OOTA" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87sjjb4rju.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (Win32) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 125.53.25.155 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:47:03 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:53:41 +0900, Chong Yidong wrote: > The release candidate for Emacs 23.4 is now available for download at: > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.4rc1.tar.gz > > Note that although the version number has been bumped to 23.4 in the > tarball and in the emacs-23 branch, I have not tagged the release yet, > in case there are last minute changes. > > If no serious problem surfaces in the next couple of days, I'll release > this as Emacs 23.4. So please help give it as much testing as possible. > Thank you. the ecoding.c:encode_designation_at_bol shuld return EMACS_INT. -- Hiroshi Oota --- src/coding.c (revision 868) +++ src/coding.c (working copy) @@ -944,7 +948,7 @@ static unsigned char *alloc_destination P_ ((struct coding_system *, EMACS_INT, unsigned char *)); static void setup_iso_safe_charsets P_ ((Lisp_Object)); -static int encode_designation_at_bol P_ ((struct coding_system *, +static EMACS_INT encode_designation_at_bol P_ ((struct coding_system *, int *, int *, unsigned char *)); static int detect_eol P_ ((const unsigned char *, EMACS_INT, enum coding_category)); @@ -4509,7 +4513,7 @@ If the current block ends before any end-of-line, we may fail to find all the necessary designations. */ -static int +static EMACS_INT encode_designation_at_bol (coding, charbuf, charbuf_end, dst) struct coding_system *coding; int *charbuf, *charbuf_end; From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 23 22:44:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpXJJ-0004b0-8d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41304) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpO3v-0005jb-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:52:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpO3q-0005TB-N7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:52:11 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:63679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpO3q-0005Sg-Gw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:52:06 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so4190803obb.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=dOBv/l+RtmRC55W7gp5AwjmUhW/m28Y+1mzZQz6Y7nM=; b=uiWGTHpPW405xqzFjSatXaM7zZHvFqfqXyXT2E5o/w9VY3q8zx+KR9kBxithUlPE62 ZGom94mTY+w8svSQZMUePLsXWF8G/z9ZtSwpX62Z0tSNRPtO/bs+tTLDQPITw8Z9tPCe a5evcfbddONXZ1fnMmlRAsttJ/7FJpfj3eBMY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.144.68 with SMTP id sk4mr2347261obb.4.1327341124542; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.81.193 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:52:04 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search From: Gideon Stupp To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=14dae9399ce73960c704b735b056 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:37 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:52:13 -0000 --14dae9399ce73960c704b735b056 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 This patch adds Conkeror like hints to incremental-search's currently matched strings. This way it is possible to choose one of the highlighted possibilities without completing the search string (useful when using incremental search for navigation). The hints can be toggled on or off at any point during the search with isearch-toggle-hints (which is mapped to C-f by default). Note that to save keystrokes characters are used as hints instead of just numbers. Anyway, please review it and if there is any interest in it merge it. Thanks, Gideon. --14dae9399ce73960c704b735b056 Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=US-ASCII; name="0001-Conkeror-like-hints-for-isearch-highlight.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Conkeror-like-hints-for-isearch-highlight.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: file0 RnJvbSBhYTEyYTNkNmFjN2UyZGFlOWUzZjI1MzM2YzRmMDFhMzUwNzkxM2I0IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBnc3R1cHAgPGdzdHVwcEBkZWJpYW4uKG5vbmUpPgpEYXRlOiBT dW4sIDIyIEphbiAyMDEyIDE3OjIyOjQwICswMjAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRDSF0gQ29ua2Vyb3Ig bGlrZSBoaW50cyBmb3IgaW5jcmVtZW50YWwgc2VhcmNoCgpUaGlzIHBhdGNoIGFkZHMgQ29ua2Vy b3IgbGlrZSBoaW50cyB0byBpbmNyZW1lbnRhbC1zZWFyY2gncyBjdXJyZW50bHkgbWF0Y2hlZCBz dHJpbmdzLgpUaGlzIHdheSBpdCBpcyBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byBjaG9vc2Ugb25lIG9mIHRoZSBoaWdo bGlnaHRlZCBwb3NzaWJpbGl0aWVzCndpdGhvdXQgY29tcGxldGluZyB0aGUgc2VhcmNoIHN0cmlu ZyAodXNlZnVsIHdoZW4gdXNpbmcgaW5jcmVtZW50YWwgc2VhcmNoIGZvciBuYXZpZ2F0aW9uKS4K VGhlIGhpbnRzIGNhbiBiZSB0b2dnbGVkIG9uIG9yIG9mZiBhdCBhbnkgcG9pbnQgZHVyaW5nIHRo 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conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYA00I00ADBD200@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:22 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.18.29]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYA00I6UAKLB220@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:22 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:25 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property In-reply-to: To: chad Message-id: <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:48:25 -0000 > From: chad > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:09:45 -0800 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 >=20 > [1:text/plain Hide] >=20 > On Jan 23, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 > >> From: chad > >> Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? > >=20 > > What will that do on a TTY? >=20 >=20 > The same thing that quotation marks do The characters you propose are much less popular, so run greater risk of being not covered by the console fonts. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 00:55:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpZMH-0002NY-5t for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42218) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpZMD-0002NB-O8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpZMC-0003Zu-LR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:33778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpZMC-0003Zq-FO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:48 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpZMC-0006I7-29; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:55:48 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: yandros@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:25 +0200) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:55:50 -0000 > Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:25 +0200 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > >> From: chad > > >> Maybe ␤ and ⇥ would be useful here? > > > > > > What will that do on a TTY? > > > > > > The same thing that quotation marks do > > The characters you propose are much less popular, so run greater risk > of being not covered by the console fonts. E.g., PuTTY in UTF-8 display mode shows them as empty rectangles. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 01:47:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpaAN-0000Hj-FX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:47:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52752) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaAL-0000Go-95 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:47:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaAK-0000qi-6K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:47:37 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:44249) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaAK-0000qb-39 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:47:36 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so634363iad.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:47:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:reply-to:to:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version :x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EX/ABC5WpY/IcnbChaYvV0quE6FLZFX3FHCAfxYAxlM=; b=xYmUOrR9nTRZXRAK3zrEx86jwA3oInyOf90Rn0MF95BVuK+H84p1vY53TjSornNdha 1+O7d1PdWSfC5DOvbim47kg6fr34iE4uqknLruODHvvsafXC6MeoY3qKpnsY1H4o8l8t KHA2NLdJJh8N1ZZOR2WjotFKuWSOBLMMqUdOY= Received: by 10.42.131.136 with SMTP id z8mr10794529ics.5.1327387654671; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.3] (c-98-237-183-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.237.183.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h9sm55400339ibh.11.2012.01.23.22.47.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:47:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. From: Kaushik Srenevasan To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:46:47 -0800 Message-ID: <1327387607.1742.21.camel@garuda3.sysenter> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.30.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:47:38 -0000 All, GUD-MI's disassembly buffer only works when the current frame has debug information. While debugging dynamically generated code it'd be useful to simply follow the program counter. I understand that newer GDBs expose an API that lets a JIT compiler register debug information for dynamically generated code, but JITs typically only do so for real functions. So, having the disassembly buffer follow $PC would still be useful while stepping through dynamically generated, shorter sequences of code (like call stubs, inline caches etc.). The latest GDB (7.4.50.20120122-cvs) does this in its TUI mode while my stable GDB's (7.0.1-debian) behavior is the same as Emacs 23 GUD. Please review and merge. Thanks, -Kaushik === modified file 'lisp/progmodes/gdb-mi.el' --- lisp/progmodes/gdb-mi.el 2012-01-05 09:46:05 +0000 +++ lisp/progmodes/gdb-mi.el 2012-01-24 05:13:10 +0000 @@ -3259,8 +3259,12 @@ (let* ((frame (gdb-current-buffer-frame)) (file (bindat-get-field frame 'fullname)) (line (bindat-get-field frame 'line))) - (when file - (format "-data-disassemble -f %s -l %s -n -1 -- 0" file line))) + (if file + (format "-data-disassemble -f %s -l %s -n -1 -- 0" file line) + ;; If we're unable to get a file name / line for $PC, simply + ;; follow $PC, disassembling the next 10 (x ~15 (on IA) == + ;; 150 bytes) instructions. + "-data-disassemble -s $pc -e \"$pc + 150\" -- 0")) gdb-disassembly-handler ;; We update disassembly only after we have actual frame information ;; about all threads, so no there's `update' signal in this list @@ -3319,8 +3323,12 @@ (gdb-table-add-row table (list (bindat-get-field instr 'address) - (apply #'format "<%s+%s>:" - (gdb-get-many-fields instr 'func-name 'offset)) + (let + ((func-name (bindat-get-field instr 'func-name)) + (offset (bindat-get-field instr 'offset))) + (if func-name + (format "<%s+%s>:" func-name offset) + "")) (bindat-get-field instr 'inst))) (when (string-equal (bindat-get-field instr 'address) address) From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 02:04:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpaQy-0002yC-Tg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:04:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52121) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaQv-0002vK-7x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:04:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaQu-0002zo-48 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:04:45 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:44320) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaQs-0002za-5Z; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:04:42 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so4997478obb.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=fqCTG2WUvx9EDQWqZi6z1kx4DwolNc6g/9aWKgIAAjo=; b=FPk1GapHqZF7XcJyruJqFE/pjSmWAFqsWdmJ9NWupjXsc/7Bk2S4AwN53kKvQiG4Ku 2GFhFCbXUlStunH+Ajmpcz4dXelkZu5u6fi84suAEKZICvSpBbNBIRNoTpnyNVq/Jw99 6uqspdn77Bd9JfaIXSrKx2Lqfsj0CqOirpGAQ= Received: by 10.50.170.73 with SMTP id ak9mr8735712igc.3.1327388681400; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id py9sm27847422igc.2.2012.01.23.23.04.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:39 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:04:46 -0000 On Jan 23, 2012, at 9:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:48:25 +0200 >> From: Eli Zaretskii >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >>>>> From: chad >>>>> Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? >>>>=20 >>>> What will that do on a TTY? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The same thing that quotation marks do >>=20 >> The characters you propose are much less popular, so run greater risk >> of being not covered by the console fonts. >=20 > E.g., PuTTY in UTF-8 display mode shows them as empty rectangles. I trust your experience far more than mine these days, but I have to = wonder if empty rectangle might not be good enough for the suggested use = case. I assume that C-x =3D DTRT with those empty rectangles? *Chad From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 02:18:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpaeS-0006Vh-LR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:18:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaeQ-0006Vb-CE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:18:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaeO-0005a9-3g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:18:42 -0500 Received: from mx1.aist.go.jp ([150.29.246.133]:53520) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpaeN-0005Zh-J3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:18:40 -0500 Received: from rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp (rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp [150.29.254.115]) by mx1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0O7IWJX006028; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:18:32 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: from smtp3.aist.go.jp by rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0O7IWsv014762; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:18:32 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: by smtp3.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0O7IVO1002599; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:18:31 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) From: Kenichi Handa To: "HIROSHI OOTA" Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 In-Reply-To: (nil@mad.dog.cx) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:18:31 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 150.29.246.133 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:18:43 -0000 In article , "HIROSHI OOTA" writes: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:53:41 +0900, Chong Yidong wrote: > > The release candidate for Emacs 23.4 is now available for download at: > > > > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-23.4rc1.tar.gz > > > > Note that although the version number has been bumped to 23.4 in the > > tarball and in the emacs-23 branch, I have not tagged the release yet, > > in case there are last minute changes. > > > > If no serious problem surfaces in the next couple of days, I'll release > > this as Emacs 23.4. So please help give it as much testing as possible. > > Thank you. > the ecoding.c:encode_designation_at_bol shuld return EMACS_INT. > -- > Hiroshi Oota I agree with the change. As my computer for Emacs hacking is begin repaired, it's difficult for me to commit it. Could someone please do it? --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org > --- src/coding.c (revision 868) > +++ src/coding.c (working copy) > @@ -944,7 +948,7 @@ > static unsigned char *alloc_destination P_ ((struct coding_system *, > EMACS_INT, unsigned char *)); > static void setup_iso_safe_charsets P_ ((Lisp_Object)); > -static int encode_designation_at_bol P_ ((struct coding_system *, > +static EMACS_INT encode_designation_at_bol P_ ((struct coding_system *, > int *, int *, unsigned char *)); > static int detect_eol P_ ((const unsigned char *, > EMACS_INT, enum coding_category)); > @@ -4509,7 +4513,7 @@ > If the current block ends before any end-of-line, we may fail to > find all the necessary designations. */ > -static int > +static EMACS_INT > encode_designation_at_bol (coding, charbuf, charbuf_end, dst) > struct coding_system *coding; > int *charbuf, *charbuf_end; From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 02:55:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpbEG-0005F2-97 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:55:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41852) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbED-0005CW-1L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:55:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbEB-0002eD-LA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:55:40 -0500 Received: from deliver.uni-koblenz.de ([141.26.64.15]:41944) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbEB-0002dk-EU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:55:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deliver.uni-koblenz.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6C0D234D; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:55:37 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uni-koblenz.de Received: from deliver.uni-koblenz.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deliver.uni-koblenz.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rqcBmFJSVhog; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:55:37 +0100 (CET) X-CHKRCPT: Envelopesender noch tassilo@member.fsf.org Received: from tsdh.uni-koblenz.de (tsdh.uni-koblenz.de [141.26.67.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deliver.uni-koblenz.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60A9AD2358; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:55:37 +0100 (CET) From: Tassilo Horn To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search References: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:55:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:52:04 +0200") Message-ID: <87aa5dmt54.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 141.26.64.15 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:55:42 -0000 Gideon Stupp writes: Hi Gideon, > This patch adds Conkeror like hints to incremental-search's currently > matched strings. > This way it is possible to choose one of the highlighted possibilities > without completing the search string (useful when using incremental > search for navigation). isearch is my main navigation feature, so I've just given your patch a try. Here's my feedback: - The characters inserted in front of matches are somewhat baffling (First I've thought: Why do I have all those typos?!). At least in X11 frames, I'd make them smaller than the usual text, maybe even superscript. And it would be nice if the hint chars where appended to matches in forward isearch but prepended in backward isearch. That way, the hint char would indicate the position of point when selecting that match. - Concerning navigation speed, I don't feel that those type hints help me. It might do so if the visible buffer portion contains tons of matches, but in my regular use, there are only ~3 matches, so hitting C-s or C-r repeatedly is faster for me than switching my finger to some other key. - I think C-f (and all other keys normally used for navigation) is a bad choice, because that's what people usually use for leaving isearch. Maybe M-h would be ok. It has some mnemonics, and its usual binding of `mark-paragraph' isn't too useful in isearch. Bye, Tassilo From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 03:41:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpbwT-0001Wz-79 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:41:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45665) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbwL-0001Sp-Px for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:41:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbwH-00009l-1R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:41:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:55638) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpbwG-00009Z-S6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:41:13 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so2493452dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:41:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SJQB66pmBExkybpV2Bh/zrAaSd7EpE2MSr1gOizypEI=; b=mpXAjxrxSpPhv7h6/s1qZvw05w7pTzaAtkESFHn0K2SAjCy3zwWeerUnNJUK6XAeMD yiQGp52ecUKecC6BoQtlvSK7JZESqzK0f14Tp7JKUgmG2sTqGv+M3rZ7kYdZP+YEZUVY g8VdKvkMJgS1NY+/OBOJFHLGOrFzDZLIVAyL8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.197.73 with SMTP id is9mr3173147pbc.75.1327394471571; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:41:11 -0800 (PST) Sender: nikolai.weibull@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.136.193 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:41:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:41:11 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ro9fqJyXIaXibqNGehaAtIIER7w Message-ID: Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp From: Nikolai Weibull To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Colin Fraizer , t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:41:23 -0000 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 15:11, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >> In 2009, Tomohiro Matsuyama sent a message to this list with a patch >> to add lookahead/lookbehind assertions to Emacs regular expressions >> (regexps). =C2=A0Is there any plan to incorporate this useful feature in= to >> an official release? > I'd like to replace the current regexp engine with one that does not > suffer from exponential blowup (i.e. using "Thompson's NFA"). > OTOH, noone has submitted code to replace the current regexp engine, and > I don't forsee I'll have the time to write it myself, so maybe I should > just give up on this plan. As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? http://code.google.com/p/re2/ It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple enou= gh to extend it with \c and \s. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 04:11:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpcPz-00065n-Nn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35492) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcPs-00064G-K6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcPr-0003hJ-Nr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37213) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcPr-0003hF-L5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:47 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcPq-0003eF-NY; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:11:46 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: chad In-reply-to: (message from chad on Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:39 -0800) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:11:54 -0000 > From: chad > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:39 -0800 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > >> The characters you propose are much less popular, so run greater risk > >> of being not covered by the console fonts. > > > > E.g., PuTTY in UTF-8 display mode shows them as empty rectangles. > > I trust your experience far more than mine these days, but I have to wonder if empty rectangle might not be good enough for the suggested use case. I doubt that. The issue at hand is how to display mouse-highlighted newline so that it is clear to the user it's a newline that (e.g.) will be inserted when she clicks on it in *Completions* buffer. Showing an empty rectangle hardly accomplishes that effect. > I assume that C-x = DTRT with those empty rectangles? You meant "C-u C-x =", I presume. This does show the name of the character, but you should have the cursor on it, which might be tricky in the *Completions* buffer. Also, at least some methods of displaying something instead of a newline (e.g., display strings) cause "C-x =" to display information about the underlying character, which may or may not explain what is being shown and why. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 04:15:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpcTc-0006q8-FH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:15:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56948) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcTV-0006i4-Ix for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:15:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcTQ-0004Qc-SQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:15:33 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48964) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcTQ-0004Q8-Jq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:15:28 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcTN-0003qh-D9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:25 +0100 Received: from 89.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net ([77.197.77.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:25 +0100 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by 89.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:25 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Request inclusion of ioccur.el in ELPA Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:07 +0100 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <87ipk15un8.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:waQS6mkyg6CtBrH/MQ7YT32TZKs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:15:37 -0000 Hi, would it be possible to include ioccur.el in ELPA? http://mercurial.intuxication.org/hg/ioccur -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 04:18:18 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpcWA-0007Qf-TK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57358) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcW3-0007QT-WD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcW3-0004qE-61 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:37381) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcW3-0004qA-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:11 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpcW2-0004sg-SR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:10 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Character FOO X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:18:17 -0000 In "emacs -Q" try this: M-: (put-text-property 149 154 'display "FOO") RET Then move point to buffer position 149 (under F from "FOO"), and type "C-u C-x =". The popped up buffer shows in its first line that the character at point is "FOO" (while the echo area says it's `e'). Bug? feature? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 05:00:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpdBJ-00060C-6O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:00:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52519) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdBD-0005zu-5Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:00:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdB7-00018e-KN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:00:43 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:39402) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdB6-00018V-FI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:00:37 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdB5-00089n-6e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:00:35 +0100 Received: from 124.72.163.37 ([124.72.163.37]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:00:35 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 124.72.163.37 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:00:35 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Does face support underline other than a straight line? Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:00:18 +0800 Lines: 149 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 124.72.163.37 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUzRVhbQj4eZqO6SjnT eWpxnMetm5b6/PmidmqrAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1F B9cBBwMLBfKABCMAAAFoSURBVCjPtZI9a8MwEIaFoc7aYDdelQMna0Em3tsSr0XUeE2Q6a22a+v+ fk8fSSBkbDUI6dHpfe9OEvRgiD+ApqKPJgJeB6iUUXWESjUe/ig38AJrhqqvaU2nTIXbNvOQ40fe qdry4kyGoVWsfCQalXpHnJGM01wjWdYbMlXNFdsZDO69m9aqNqxEJqTEgbM5OF7wlEfIoll1Ked4 LbM5X2EdILLokEdmI8z7g5cKED0cuTC930TYhy7ZDekkXVGw/L60TguJePPxcJF48lpsSUWEA/Ju jGFNgJOXc4Hz7TmAdBeu5Ve4AEjOi2/2jfd3cAJZ+IbNrvdjgBZY01b+HTuG3cLws6BJZqVOj/pp T0OqVwx3rFq+QmJwx3loK5JSLEhDIt62+mtC2C+SrAUxEbV6C6v2BRbd6pILBKFpepKZJHgGgrKF sptSUUoczpwg2pQ7ZH1tgs0ou/917mzz6Cs2//C978cv5l07L02orIEAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Z2bWAWmo8lgXg5pFPXkgg9E88CI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:00:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hello, I found in other editors something like this: --=-=-= Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=wave.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: wave.png iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADkAAAAfCAIAAADSj/L5AAAXR2lDQ1BJQ0MgUHJvZmlsZQAAeAHV WWVYVVu3nmvtgk13d3d3d3cjSndtSQkJQaQEaSSllFBQUBBEpBSDgyAiKqAIoqIcDgZdd6HH73y3 /t0/dz7PXuvd7xxzzBhjxpgLAKYVdwIhCKYEIDgkIszaQJvT0cmZEzcLIEAJSAAZ4HH3DCdoWVqa gv81bbxApJE0KXak638V+58zqLy8wz0BgCyRbA+vcM9gBN8EANb2JIRFAIDaQvjx6AgCgtEPEUwb hjQQwbNH2PcXXjvCHj8xBv1TxtZaBwAMIwBEpO7uYb4AkPEiPGeUpy+ih0wXACx1iJd/CAA0jghW 9/Rz9wKAqRSREQ0ODj3CwwgW9Pg3Pb7/ht3dPf6l093d91/4V1+QkkjFuv7hhCD3mJ9//i8fwUGR yHj9TNTIkzQkyPzINvTI71OIh7kF8j7iD7zcdU2QNysynpTeIXY2v3hIlBD005aIDKTuE6ZvjfBI WciSEKF9hJExg3wIEZa2f/MJsX465ggmRfhC73C933ouBbgbH9mMHOHbwyKt7RDMi+D+8CgbPQQj 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I am curious whether emacs can do this too? Best wishes, Leo -- Happy Chinese Spring Festival --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 06:14:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpeKq-0005Bw-LP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:14:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36128) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeKj-0005BK-KQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:14:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeKd-0000cv-MA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:14:37 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:53454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeKX-0000cQ-50; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:14:25 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so1043277iad.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:14:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=jLVKPdNMrXKKJphqDpohB0NRujBN7aGPBsqnhU3eZYk=; b=PnowZHqR0pxcyi2t0qWi19UM6zDwrT88OhvfnYnbiWOVB8/4UlVkDQ9oHVoOgP8N4Y aGow8S6O09HVk866BAzBHmx+W3JO1lKGTImWRG1gMnbo1BYcgASBLFd0joH/y/ts0dGf Z5MaOTnxPs33mTWX6SFiKsVUk3X7NGYsSMQGo= Received: by 10.42.117.193 with SMTP id u1mr11383082icq.24.1327403664097; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (c-98-247-148-125.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.247.148.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj1sm22248783igb.0.2012.01.24.03.14.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_23216759-28F3-440F-AEA8-701E6BD6F8E5" From: chad In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:14:21 -0800 Message-Id: <73B792BB-2350-41F5-9790-C836AB2CE7FF@gmail.com> References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> <8339b62lo5.fsf@gnu.org> <83zkdd222e.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:14:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_23216759-28F3-440F-AEA8-701E6BD6F8E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jan 24, 2012, at 1:11 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>=20 >> I trust your experience far more than mine these days, but I have to = wonder if empty rectangle might not be good enough for the suggested use = case. >=20 > I doubt that. The issue at hand is how to display mouse-highlighted > newline so that it is clear to the user it's a newline that (e.g.) > will be inserted when she clicks on it in *Completions* buffer. > Showing an empty rectangle hardly accomplishes that effect. I suppose that there are tricky edges, but I thought that the = first-order problem was being able to tell a newline or tab apart from = nothing. If the use-case is more complicated, then I'll certainly = believe that `something not-normal but not-nothing' is not sufficient. I = had mostly hoped to improve upon Lars' `4 chars of garbage' experience. >=20 >> I assume that C-x =3D DTRT with those empty rectangles? >=20 > You meant "C-u C-x =3D", I presume. =20 Yes, that's what I meant; thanks. In truth, I have quite a bit of very old tty-only experience, but almost = all of it predates reasonable tty+mouse setups, so I tend to forget the = mouse part in this domain. I did check that mouse-selecting such a = character in order to describe-char it was a bust, but I assumed = (probably wrongly) that the mouse-case wasn't as interesting for the tty = users as a the keyboard-motion case. For the mouse case, I was wondering idly about a tooltip version of = describe-char, but it seemed unlikely to be as useful as a special face = for this purpose.=20 Thanks! *Chad --Apple-Mail=_23216759-28F3-440F-AEA8-701E6BD6F8E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I = trust your experience far more than mine these days, but I have to = wonder if empty rectangle might not be good enough for the suggested use = case.

I doubt that.  The issue at hand is how = to display mouse-highlighted
newline so that it is clear to the user = it's a newline that (e.g.)
will be inserted when she clicks on it in = *Completions* buffer.
Showing an empty rectangle hardly accomplishes = that effect.

I suppose that = there are tricky edges, but I thought that the first-order problem was = being able to tell a newline or tab apart from nothing. If the use-case = is more complicated, then I'll certainly believe that `something = not-normal but not-nothing' is not sufficient. I had mostly hoped to = improve upon Lars' `4 chars of garbage' experience.


I assume that C-x =3D = DTRT with those empty rectangles?

You meant "C-u C-x = =3D", I presume.  

Yes, = that's what I meant; thanks.

In truth, I have = quite a bit of very old tty-only experience, but almost all of it = predates reasonable tty+mouse setups, so I tend to forget the mouse part = in this domain.  I did check that mouse-selecting such a character = in order to describe-char it was a bust, but I assumed (probably = wrongly) that the mouse-case wasn't as interesting for the tty users as = a the keyboard-motion case.

For the mouse case, I = was wondering idly about a tooltip version of describe-char, but it = seemed unlikely to be as useful as a special face for this = purpose. 

Thanks!
*Chad
=
= --Apple-Mail=_23216759-28F3-440F-AEA8-701E6BD6F8E5-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 06:37:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpegZ-0000Xj-Jz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:37:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60051) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpegQ-0000WY-MQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:37:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpegL-0003st-3d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:37:02 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:63413) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpegD-0003s5-UO; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:36:50 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so2582163dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:36:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iJnTM9MSlQj/7S1/VXO/gN9dPM3P5TcUFLtsT8+MPJg=; b=AuXguwtq/iIabPgJMl6u+21Syp3QsPXb+3/I6vohRYH/2wfiCzObaZRVsRecuW0gG9 Z6N3ktUZBEKOMHTHj4/9o9oRL3YpSwzfGCgCeIXsc4qSsDs335WUg8x/+uzzFKJ/+BE/ fWHu9HVkUcCETt8psLKoUnRFnKUxkV7I8ORwM= Received: by 10.68.199.38 with SMTP id jh6mr29919208pbc.77.1327405008359; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:36:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:36:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:36:07 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Character FOO To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:37:10 -0000 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:18, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Bug? feature? `(("character" ,(format "%s (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" (apply 'propertize char-description (text-properties-at pos)) char char char)) ... Now, applying the properties to the char is obviously a feature. The question is, should display properties be ignored when displaying the character? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 06:45:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpeoK-00032Z-2k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34447) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeoH-00031K-HS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeoB-0004td-Hr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:09 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:41478) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpeoB-0004tS-6V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:03 -0500 Received: by pbdu6 with SMTP id u6so2590337pbd.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sj9VlEHnrnYdj++smU0t/Z+9b8r4M+BYDSG4Nm/qnmo=; b=Sp6V97Lyr5Z5lgMftwU83x+kllF8HSbG6io97GkfLv8mRcacvNmHOyfY0o7EsGHdiE TTx7XW15eAsBohlXvG7eirgJYQLZsBa2j4G4SkbGkYxZ2YQDW9T8XCSMe7zuJN8AfTwP aVVKmrooti3GGAdnTSdNRatsOYRS2eGN4yLxI= Received: by 10.68.224.6 with SMTP id qy6mr22095178pbc.60.1327405502191; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:44:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1327387607.1742.21.camel@garuda3.sysenter> References: <1327387607.1742.21.camel@garuda3.sysenter> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:44:22 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:45:10 -0000 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 07:46, Kaushik Srenevasan w= rote: > Please review and merge. Please send proposed patches to the bug tracker , starting the message with Package: emacs Tags: patch and also appropriate "Version:" and "Severity:" pseudo-headers, if required= . The file admin/notes/bugtracker contains additional information on the use of the Emacs bug tracker. Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 06:45:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpeou-00044W-PT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34679) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeor-00043C-Vv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeom-00056T-1O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:45 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:50837) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeol-00056J-RQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:45:39 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so2586936dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TN4n+2RioodCvrDJYtzI7gBF9WSI2KlggFKpIboP1Bw=; b=HFWp4TExXUE06p42s1pacAwuQ0crlp27BjhNigSOxmGJKRKQZjRetjTG+EVeYxIvKq +VzSjts9kRfWiwLL8rnlj8FBJO2Q8Ve9kNn2T3oQ8fSwxapt3fc9Ncs4ikR3WpA+alAX AlH5KMrpu0Wko1rzm8P8EVLrRjDX1A729VVz0= Received: by 10.68.72.8 with SMTP id z8mr29910853pbu.111.1327405537279; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:44:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:44:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search To: Gideon Stupp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:45:47 -0000 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 18:52, Gideon Stupp wrote: > Anyway, please review it and if there is any interest in it merge it. Please send proposed patches to the bug tracker , starting the message with Package: emacs Tags: patch and also appropriate "Version:" and "Severity:" pseudo-headers, if required= . The file admin/notes/bugtracker contains additional information on the use of the Emacs bug tracker. Thanks, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 06:51:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpeut-0004m6-Cm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:51:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36205) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeuq-0004lU-KJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:51:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeuj-0005wL-MI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:51:56 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:46280) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpeuj-0005wD-8w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:51:49 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so2590398dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:51:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O6KDBtTuXy4wdwQ6ILQG7nRAaYe2IQOKZlALC7Wn9ds=; b=wE2ncQaEo9cxgzk9rFtyfKIRBQaBecpaCGElV6xCNYk3ARoeKNsgXXrKPpkNJQuhD/ FY/V6FFpySiJhPMvsWpBvyFHoc54TJtCuxwqhMmBYNIIGR+YBGgZSNuj9t3/V7+PKyJZ 3EueWlOOweDhBw5caxsFqBmABFmgwjADMWnvo= Received: by 10.68.75.135 with SMTP id c7mr30081942pbw.43.1327405908219; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:51:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:51:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:51:07 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 To: Kenichi Handa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: HIROSHI OOTA , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:51:57 -0000 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 08:18, Kenichi Handa wrote: > I agree with the change. =C2=A0As my computer for Emacs hacking > is begin repaired, it's difficult for me to commit it. > Could someone please do it? For 23.4 or trunk? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 09:41:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RphYb-0003wM-M0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:41:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57464) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RphYP-0003tG-T5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:41:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RphYG-00016y-0d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:40:57 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:48553) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RphYE-00015e-UK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:40:47 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OEecAO014042; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:40:39 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id BFC84B4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:40:38 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Nikolai Weibull Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:40:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Nikolai Weibull's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:41:11 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4110=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4110> : streams <722606> : uri <1052841> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Colin Fraizer , t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:41:07 -0000 >>> In 2009, Tomohiro Matsuyama sent a message to this list with a patch >>> to add lookahead/lookbehind assertions to Emacs regular expressions >>> (regexps). =C2=A0Is there any plan to incorporate this useful feature i= nto >>> an official release? >> I'd like to replace the current regexp engine with one that does not >> suffer from exponential blowup (i.e. using "Thompson's NFA"). >> OTOH, noone has submitted code to replace the current regexp engine, and >> I don't forsee I'll have the time to write it myself, so maybe I should >> just give up on this plan. > As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, > doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? > http://code.google.com/p/re2/ > It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple en= ough > to extend it with \c and \s. That might work, indeed (tho someone still has to write the corresponding code). Note that it does not support lookaround assertions. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 10:01:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RphsC-0002E1-CN for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41569) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rphs5-000294-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rphrv-0004yK-Mp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:17 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:48117) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rphrv-0004y5-HR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:07 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OF15r2020266; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:05 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 14119B4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:05 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: chad Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property Message-ID: References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:01:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> (chad's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:02 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4110=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4110> : streams <722611> : uri <1052852> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:01:22 -0000 >>> Therefore, I think if we want to be able to display selectable >>> newlines, we need to have a special way to display such newlines, >>> e.g. "" or some such. >> I'd suggest \n rather than , since it's already used at many other >> places in Emacs (tho it's not often visible to the "end user"). > Maybe =E2=90=A4 and =E2=87=A5 would be useful here? Maybe, but I think not: I don't think "=E2=90=A4" is more commonly recogniz= ed as newline than "\n", so it's not worth the trouble of having to deal with cases where that char can't be displayed. Same thing for =E2=87=A5 (which on my current setup displays as something barely recognizable): I actually wondered what you intended to use it for, so it's not obvious enough. I think for TAB and SPC, the problem is only when they're at the beginning/end of the completion element (or when the element is made of nothing else than TABs and SPCs), so I think that adding quotes around the element will be more clear. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 10:09:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpi0G-00049a-UO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48417) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpi0E-00049T-7F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpi09-0006AK-OX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:42 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:60373) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpi09-0006AD-HP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:37 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so2714532dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:09:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oOkFWOTZ4iHk6/iK6ct7hP+QNSBi9/ovRK6v3PAV+G4=; b=VourG197bSp/+jcPMawF6wGoxx0LUIN0BNIFtZfXtL0qOLsJtgZ/1sWts9E8GVM9mV W5RW0cXqkJBkjM1MvGOMtHS6UdcBsXefXAsFlg8q7XXVJiPbN4KoVmCGNY7SzalE/+9J kd+esUFbbyARfLJMVkkkaER1lxSWONNlqeS6Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.189.69 with SMTP id gg5mr31260508pbc.41.1327417776631; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:09:36 -0800 (PST) Sender: nikolai.weibull@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.136.193 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 07:09:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:09:36 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: smHQTM13Hy9nsFR45jL6zm4Ziow Message-ID: Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp From: Nikolai Weibull To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Colin Fraizer , t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:09:43 -0000 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 15:40, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >> As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, >> doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? >> http://code.google.com/p/re2/ >> It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple e= nough >> to extend it with \c and \s. > That might work, indeed (tho someone still has to write the > corresponding code). > Note that it does not support lookaround assertions. True, but you can, as far as I know, not do so without (allowing for) exponential behavior. I don=E2=80=99t want to detract from the merits of lookaround assertions (o= r start a discussion on the subject), but I=E2=80=99ve always found them to b= e a sign of improper use of (no longer) regular expressions. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 11:29:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpjFE-00081R-V2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:29:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34224) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdK3-0007ZQ-1w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:09:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdJy-0002Ey-4Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:09:51 -0500 Received: from mail-ey0-f199.google.com ([209.85.215.199]:41299) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpdJx-0002Eu-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:09:46 -0500 Received: by eaad11 with SMTP id d11so937002eaa.6 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:09:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.185.130 with SMTP id u2mr2540228eem.6.1327399785005; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:09:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87aa5dmt54.fsf@tsdh.uni-koblenz.de> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Tassilo Horn , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec517a790a90bb004b7435859 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.199 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:29:15 -0500 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:52 -0000 --bcaec517a790a90bb004b7435859 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Hi Tassilo, thanks for taking the time to the the patch! On , Tassilo Horn wrote: > Gideon Stupp gideon.stupp@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Gideon, > > This patch adds Conkeror like hints to incremental-search's currently > > matched strings. > > This way it is possible to choose one of the highlighted possibilities > > without completing the search string (useful when using incremental > > search for navigation). > isearch is my main navigation feature, so I've just given your patch a > try. Here's my feedback: > - The characters inserted in front of matches are somewhat baffling > (First I've thought: Why do I have all those typos?!). At least in > X11 frames, I'd make them smaller than the usual text, maybe even > superscript. Agreed. Maybe the face should be customizable. > And it would be nice if the hint chars where appended > to matches in forward isearch but prepended in backward isearch. > That way, the hint char would indicate the position of point when > selecting that match. Interesting. I played around with various possibilities and finally decided to always put the hints at the beginning because that is what Conkeror does. Again, maybe it should be customizable. > - Concerning navigation speed, I don't feel that those type hints help > me. It might do so if the visible buffer portion contains tons of > matches, but in my regular use, there are only ~3 matches, so > hitting Cs or Cr repeatedly is faster for me than switching my > finger to some other key. As you say, the usefulness of the hints is really for those infrequent but annoying cases where there are more than a few matches. There are two typical scenarios where I find myself using them. The first one is when I need to jump to a position on the screen that is not unique. For example lets say I am editing isearch.el and I see call to function "isearch-toggle-hints" that I want to change. Since searching for "isearch" is futile, I can search for "toggle", hopefully reach the correct line and then go back a word. But it seems easier to start the search with Cs Cf, type in a few characters of the prefix of "isearch" (3 characters are usually enough) and then use the hint if necessary. The second even more annoying use case is when I am searching for a string that I believed to be unique, but turns out to have multiple hits. In this case, instead of cancelling the search and starting a new one I can just press Cf and use the hints to jump to the correct place. > - I think Cf (and all other keys normally used for navigation) is a > bad choice, because that's what people usually use for leaving > isearch. Maybe Mh would be ok. It has some mnemonics, and its > usual binding of `mark-paragraph' isn't too useful in isearch. Understood. Still it would be nice to be able to start a hinted search without switching between the control key (for Cs) and the Meta key. > Bye, > Tassilo Thanks again, Gideon. --bcaec517a790a90bb004b7435859 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tassilo, thanks for taking the time to the the patch!

On , Ta= ssilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> wrote:
> Gideon Stupp gid= eon.stupp@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> = Hi Gideon,
>
>
>
> > This patch adds = Conkeror like hints to incremental-search's currently
>
&= gt; > matched strings.
>
> > This way it is possible= to choose one of the highlighted possibilities
>
> > w= ithout completing the search string (useful when using incremental
>= ;
> > search for navigation).
>
>
> <= br />> isearch is my main navigation feature, so I've just given you= r patch a
>
> try. =A0Here's my feedback:
> >
>
> =A0- The characters inserted in front of ma= tches are somewhat baffling
>
> =A0 =A0(First I've th= ought: Why do I have all those typos?!). =A0At least in
>
>= ; =A0 =A0X11 frames, I'd make them smaller than the usual text, maybe = even
>
> =A0 =A0superscript.

Agreed. Maybe the= face should be customizable.

>=A0 And it would be nice if= the hint chars where appended
>
> =A0 =A0to matches in f= orward isearch but prepended in backward isearch.
>
> =A0= =A0That way, the hint char would indicate the position of point when
= >
> =A0 =A0selecting that match.
>

Interes= ting. I played around with various possibilities and finally decided to alw= ays put the hints at the beginning because that is what Conkeror does. Agai= n,
maybe it should be customizable.

>
>
= > =A0- Concerning navigation speed, I don't feel that those type hi= nts help
>
> =A0 =A0me. =A0It might do so if the visible = buffer portion contains tons of
>
> =A0 =A0matches, but i= n my regular use, there are only ~3 matches, so
>
> =A0 = =A0hitting C-s or C-r repeatedly is faster for me than switching my
&g= t;
> =A0 =A0finger to some other key.

As you say, the = usefulness of the hints is really for those infrequent but annoying cases w= here there are more than a few matches. There are two typical scenarios whe= re I find myself using them. The first one
is when I need to jump to a= position on the screen that is not unique. For example lets say I am editi= ng isearch.el and I see call to function "isearch-toggle-hints" t= hat I want to change. Since searching for "isearch" is futile, I = can search for "toggle", hopefully reach the correct line and the= n go back a word. But it seems easier to start the search with C-s C-f, typ= e in a few characters of the prefix of "isearch" (3 characters ar= e usually enough) and then use the hint if necessary. The second even more = annoying use case is when I am searching for a string that I believed to be= unique, but turns out to have multiple hits. In this case, instead of canc= elling the search and starting a new one I can just press C-f and use the h= ints to jump to the correct place.

>
>
> > =A0- I think C-f (and all other keys normally used for navigation= ) is a
>
> =A0 =A0bad choice, because that's what peo= ple usually use for leaving
>
> =A0 =A0isearch. =A0Maybe = M-h would be ok. =A0It has some mnemonics, and its
>
> = =A0 =A0usual binding of `mark-paragraph' isn't too useful in isearc= h.
Understood. Still it would be nice to be able to start a hinted sea= rch without switching between the control key (for C-s) and the Meta key.
>
>
>
> Bye,
>
> T= assilo
>
>

Thanks again, Gideon. --bcaec517a790a90bb004b7435859-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 11:49:41 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpjYz-0005Dy-BZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpjYs-0005Cp-MA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpjYm-0005Uc-Sz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:34 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:44509) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpjYm-0005UY-Rb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:28 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpjYm-0007Xj-EI; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:49:28 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Richard Stallman To: chad In-reply-to: <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> (message from chad on Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:47:02 -0800) Subject: Re: face vs. mouse-face text property References: <87pqegeluf.fsf@web.de> <87y5t2f7q0.fsf@web.de> <83vco52wph.fsf@gnu.org> <87bopv8jla.fsf@web.de> <883D91EC-D57E-4A97-A1F9-B3C37F74EF49@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:49:40 -0000 Maybe ␤ and ⇥ would be useful here? They both appear as a diamond shape for me. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 12:35:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpkH5-0002Gb-TB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:35:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57829) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkH0-0002GS-58 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:35:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkGu-0003Mm-AK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:35:09 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:46924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkGu-0003Ld-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:35:04 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OHYxeI007888; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:34:59 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 239A9B4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:34:59 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Nikolai Weibull Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Message-ID: References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:34:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Nikolai Weibull's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:09:36 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4111=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4111> : streams <722640> : uri <1052923> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Colin Fraizer , t.matsuyama.pub@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:35:14 -0000 >>> As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, >>> doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? >>> http://code.google.com/p/re2/ >>> It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple = enough >>> to extend it with \c and \s. >> That might work, indeed (tho someone still has to write the >> corresponding code). >> Note that it does not support lookaround assertions. > True, but you can, as far as I know, not do so without (allowing for) > exponential behavior. Actually, no. Contrary to backreferences (which are outside of the mathematical notion of regular expressions, and can't be matched in linear time), lookahead assertions are "normal". So RE2 may get support for lookahead assertions in the future (maybe for lookbehind as well, tho that's more difficult). > I don=E2=80=99t want to detract from the merits of lookaround assertions = (or > start a discussion on the subject), but I=E2=80=99ve always found them to= be a > sign of improper use of (no longer) regular expressions. I just pointed it out as supporting my argument that I'd rather not add lookaround assertions since it may make it more difficult to change to an linear-time matcher later on. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 12:39:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpkLa-0004eM-NA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkLT-0004e7-Pg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkLO-0004Bz-7z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:47 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:60676) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkLO-0004Be-3P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:42 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OHddwo020250; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:39 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C8058B4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:39 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: gideon.stupp@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:39:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: (gideon stupp's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:09:45 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4111=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4111> : streams <722642> : uri <1052926> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: Tassilo Horn , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:39:53 -0000 This looks like an interesting addition. Could you try and refactor it as a separate package? I guess you'd still need a few changes to isearch, so please try and refactor it so as to modify isearch.el as little as possible and only by adding one (or maybe two) hooks. Hopefully those hooks can be "generic" rather than specific to your particular extension. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 12:59:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpkec-0000gu-5O for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46387) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkeU-0000g6-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkeQ-0006xR-9z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:26 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:60950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpkeP-0006xL-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:22 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OHxJX3021877; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:19 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 48F01B4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:19 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Re: Request inclusion of ioccur.el in ELPA Message-ID: References: <87ipk15un8.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87ipk15un8.fsf@gmail.com> (Thierry Volpiatto's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:07 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4111=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4111> : streams <722645> : uri <1052935> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:59:33 -0000 > would it be possible to include ioccur.el in ELPA? > http://mercurial.intuxication.org/hg/ioccur Of course, bzr-hg doesn't want to cooperate right now, so we can either wait until I get it to work, or I can add the file as is, losing the history. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 13:47:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RplPQ-00069D-Pn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:47:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RplPN-00067T-EA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:47:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RplPM-0005e3-7P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:47:53 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:48661) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RplPL-0005dg-Px for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:47:52 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so4240469wic.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:47:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=IlSZHjJsCVbEZAtILrY1uYMhvfvKKvLl3PMwh4Zr34c=; b=TxPtyv78pJOFr5UXlfJ81+DObe7TNyzKJ7RpDCSggnv5YjPOHKZcdrwsIih1vf2T9L mrZoxELUSi5u8YRS5wmha5RYfJJJaHMu2LtECg5+Zk0+ckxyGlMDISWvLBZRsuiBu9+U jVOH1DzpaN2JMosueb44dJnzztxLjbAvClNu8= Received: by 10.180.95.199 with SMTP id dm7mr23006825wib.9.1327430870239; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.20.12] (80.179.201.120.cable.012.net.il. [80.179.201.120]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u12sm20213169wiv.10.2012.01.24.10.47.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:47:48 -0800 (PST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:47:42 +0200 To: Stefan Monnier X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: Tassilo Horn , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:47:54 -0000 Hi Stefan. I need to think about it a bit to see how to do it but I will try to come up= with a solution following your guidelines.=20 Thanks, Gideon. On 24 =D7=91=D7=99=D7=A0=D7=95 2012, at 19:39, Stefan Monnier wrote: > This looks like an interesting addition. > Could you try and refactor it as a separate package? > I guess you'd still need a few changes to isearch, so please try and > refactor it so as to modify isearch.el as little as possible and only by > adding one (or maybe two) hooks. Hopefully those hooks can be "generic" > rather than specific to your particular extension. >=20 >=20 > Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 14:04:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rplf5-0002eY-0o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58506) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpley-0002eN-ED for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rplew-0007xK-Ow for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:00 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:33599) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rplew-0007xE-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:03:58 -0500 Received: by wicr5 with SMTP id r5so4255404wic.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:03:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=RNFPeQarTgN+8ED6JKVL3Fbp6N7itdi3UEDmv6Yc4mc=; b=l2My4Xj4F42I2Cl55II8UgyZSrpT9+uExZqCM0+/XKyX100h0lxSxBWijN61AorFwq OUC23u4zbjFKjkOMaZs54MsjwCIzqbvoDjTXdAipZdvT4Nr9lotL1fr5h0l/tP6YOBhS 3deowg7QPSXkOJ1Z1LoCHtrA1zngcwnlTJHo4= Received: by 10.180.77.228 with SMTP id v4mr22951333wiw.8.1327431837104; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from thierry-MM061 (234.77.197.77.rev.sfr.net. [77.197.77.234]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cb8sm15891965wib.0.2012.01.24.11.03.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:03:56 -0800 (PST) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Request inclusion of ioccur.el in ELPA References: <87ipk15un8.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:03:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:59:19 -0500") Message-ID: <87zkdcj52e.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:04:06 -0000 Hi Stefan, Stefan Monnier writes: >> would it be possible to include ioccur.el in ELPA? >> http://mercurial.intuxication.org/hg/ioccur > > Of course, bzr-hg doesn't want to cooperate right now, so we can either > wait until I get it to work, Ok, better waiting you fix this, take your time, no urgency! Thanks. > or I can add the file as is, losing the history. > > > Stefan -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 14:12:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RplnG-0004v3-Lj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41283) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RplnE-0004uv-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpln9-0000jT-13 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:31 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:43084) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpln8-0000jE-SB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:26 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OJCNSv020636; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:23 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3FCCEB4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:23 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:12:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:47:42 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4111=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4111> : streams <722660> : uri <1052971> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Tassilo Horn , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:12:33 -0000 > I need to think about it a bit to see how to do it but I will try to come up > with a solution following your guidelines. Feel free to think out loud on this list ;-) Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 15:31:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpn1h-00060z-T8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33159) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpn1e-00060D-Sd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpn1d-0004Xn-DP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:30 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:54968) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpn1d-0004Xi-3y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:29 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0OKVQd8002076; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:26 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 0C19EB4431; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:26 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Message-ID: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:31:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella"'s message of "Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:36:21 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4111=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4111> : streams <722676> : uri <1053006> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:31:32 -0000 >> >> I'm not completely sure. The current code doesn't seem that bad since, >> >> as you say, it basically reproduces the behavior of >> >> window-configurations. >> >> So I'd like to first hear of what are concrete cases where the current >> >> behavior is a problem. >> > It's very simple : with the current code, when you call the >> > `window-state-put' function, the mark is restored as active. >> That's easy to fix: use (set-marker (mark-marker)) instead of set-mark. > Interesting. It's actually a trivial bug-fix. >> > - Either, remove all the mark stuff from `window-state-get' and >> > `window-state-put' functions. >> That's not a bad idea, actually. > Yes that's was my first idea in fact. After this discussion I think > it's the good thing to do and ou I attached the corresponding patch to > this email. `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal > with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unexpected > behavior from user point of view. I tend to agree. Martin, what do you think? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 16:58:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpoOG-0004CJ-LQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55826) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpoOE-0004C8-8x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpoOC-0002Sa-NY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:54 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:35022) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpoOC-0002SB-GH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:52 -0500 Received: by wera13 with SMTP id a13so2166358wer.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:58:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=HBfaDYL+wOc4tp8U61ogyzvAwUXCcKZP/Wb3ZSjGJBs=; b=BKb2pnmuLPXln02VyhWwcsgj/aoAa+cy9lgFz3TXXYswnRytQJLPE6ZYjFRBlqVEGQ 4+Zv5TbFLNfL3Hav2Ou/M7diETVlvOb9K+Uu5BTiGroA5WJjLzYUVWST6BvSAwXx5oKz vzHewMuVlXcO9Li3Afxy8AqF9ZHD/ZGfaxULs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.131.210 with SMTP id m60mr3652267wei.47.1327442330285; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:58:50 -0800 (PST) Sender: jordigh@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.2.2 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:58:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:49 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5HVV9EgV6x9WvEy0xqzxf59BoV8 Message-ID: Subject: Should configure fail if pkg-config fails? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jordi_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Hermoso?= To: Emacs development discussions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:58:55 -0000 Today while trying to build the Emacs 24 alpha, I discovered that I had messed up some things in my local Debian system and pkg-config was failing. I didn't notice this until I was well into the build system. The configure script didn't immediately report that something was wrong, and didn't exit with nonzero status. Shouldn't the configure script emit a clear warning if pkg-config fails? Thanks, - Jordi G. H. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 17:26:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpopK-0003Hl-5z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45520) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpopD-0003HZ-HL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpopA-0006lt-8X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:47 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:50799) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpop9-0006lC-Vk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDC4A60018; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVmGB82wIKp4; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DF9BA60014; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:26:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1F3019.8060808@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:26:33 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZGkgR3V0acOpcnJleiBIZXJtb3Nv?= Subject: Re: Should configure fail if pkg-config fails? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:26:52 -0000 On 01/24/2012 01:58 PM, Jordi Guti=C3=A9rrez Hermoso wrote: > Shouldn't the configure script emit a clear warning if pkg-config fails= ? Could be. What exactly was the failure? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 17:43:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpp4y-00065O-29 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:43:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41943) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpp4r-00062W-TO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:43:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpp4n-0000Zx-Um for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:42:57 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:55542) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpp4n-0000Zt-Nt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:42:53 -0500 Received: by wibhj13 with SMTP id hj13so38958wib.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:42:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LXGCHZeTi3dlSc0zf94SAyXsPPKpL5bi7tI/LBnJpOM=; b=AZxFot6NSDkm6zn23trPySi+TVft/9V/4AjM6Pq/Y26Z9G501wNa49S8WU1ORfqoU4 y5+5aIQOqqwwwDvp3ALqugOTMnvjVYM4a3UNccrc4O/D0xgT2c4ui0pU0JI798z3Wxdd 38dlcxuKtdOzwxPE0V9Yp3AI1Cu7VYIt36Xxg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.77.228 with SMTP id v4mr24074647wiw.8.1327444972882; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:42:52 -0800 (PST) Sender: jordigh@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.2.2 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:42:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F1F3019.8060808@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4F1F3019.8060808@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:42:52 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bhNYCBSCOGjuZ_Kj3KMBgnocp00 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Should configure fail if pkg-config fails? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jordi_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Hermoso?= To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:43:01 -0000 2012/1/24 Paul Eggert : > On 01/24/2012 01:58 PM, Jordi Guti=C3=A9rrez Hermoso wrote: >> Shouldn't the configure script emit a clear warning if pkg-config fails? > > Could be. =C2=A0What exactly was the failure? One of the .pc files relevant to GTK+ was in the wrong location because I stupidly mixed Debian packages from different Debian releases. Newer packages put the the .pc files in a different location. pkg-config produced an error message to stderrr and exited with nonzero status, but the configure script didn't pick this up. - Jordi G. H. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 17:49:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RppBD-0007p0-32 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:49:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43871) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RppB7-0007nH-R5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:49:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RppB3-0001bT-NG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:49:25 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:34023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RppB3-0001bM-9d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:49:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A135A60018; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRhwU95s1jcA; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF052A60014; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:49:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1F356F.9040501@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:49:19 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZGkgR3V0acOpcnJleiBIZXJtb3Nv?= Subject: Re: Should configure fail if pkg-config fails? References: <4F1F3019.8060808@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:49:30 -0000 On 01/24/2012 02:42 PM, Jordi Guti=C3=A9rrez Hermoso wrote: > pkg-config produced an error message to stderrr and exited > with nonzero status Which invocation of pkg-config was it, exactly? What arguments were passed to pkg-config? What was the diagnostic message? and the exit status? Those of the sorts of things we'd need to look at, to avoid this problem in the future. 'configure' can't simply exit whenever pkg-config returns a nonzero exit status; sometimes pkg-config is *supposed* to return a nonzero exit status. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 18:27:08 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpplc-0005wO-Vd for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:27:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rppla-0005wI-Tf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:27:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpplZ-000645-NR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:27:06 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]:49381) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpplZ-000641-JY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:27:05 -0500 Received: from [87.198.47.37] (87-198-47-37.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.47.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47DC8683D8 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:27:03 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4F1F3E45.80606@harpegolden.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:27:01 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20120104 Icedove/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 65.99.215.13 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:27:07 -0000 On 24/01/12 08:41, Nikolai Weibull wrote: > As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, > doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? > > http://code.google.com/p/re2/ > > It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple = enough > to extend it with \c and \s. > If we're mentioning engines, CL-PPCRE by Dr. Edi Weitz is _in_ (common)=20 lisp and generally nice (also 2-clause BSD-style licensed):=20 http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 18:49:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpq7h-0000Wa-Fh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:49:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34031) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpq7e-0000WU-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:49:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpq7e-0000IK-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:49:54 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:49221 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpq7d-0000I6-Qz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:49:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1DC451C73C; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:48:46 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search Organization: JURTA References: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:55:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:52:04 +0200") Message-ID: <87pqe8g16p.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:49:55 -0000 > Anyway, please review it and if there is any interest in it merge it. Thanks for proposing a useful feature. I suggest to implement more simple and clean design that is based on well-known Emacs features: 1. On the next matched strings display numbers counting from 1. You could try doing with tooltips that will look like in Conkeror, (this might be too slow, but worth trying). This is easy to do in `isearch-lazy-highlight-update' 2. Add a new numeric argument `count' to `isearch-repeat-forward' (`C-s') and `isearch-repeat-backward' (`C-r'). This would allow easy navigation with e.g. `C-8 C-s' for the 8-th match in forward direction. 3. For backward matches we could display negative numbers, and `C-s' will treat negative arguments like `C- C-8 C-s' as positive counts for backward search. Also `C-r' would treat positive arguments like `C-8 C-r' as positive counts in backward direction. A negative arguments for `C-r' like `C- C-8 C-r' would go to the 8-th match in forward direction, naturally. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 19:48:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpr2J-00073d-0d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:48:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56894) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr2G-00073X-Tl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:48:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr2F-0006yl-JN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:48:24 -0500 Received: from mx1.aist.go.jp ([150.29.246.133]:63709) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr2F-0006xZ-2y; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:48:23 -0500 Received: from rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp (rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp [150.29.254.123]) by mx1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0mApF027486; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:10 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: from smtp4.aist.go.jp by rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0m9Mo005353; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:10 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: by smtp4.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0m9gr002675; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:09 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) From: Kenichi Handa To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Character FOO In-Reply-To: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:18:10 -0500) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:09 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 150.29.246.133 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:48:25 -0000 In article , Eli Zaretskii writes: > In "emacs -Q" try this: > M-: (put-text-property 149 154 'display "FOO") RET > Then move point to buffer position 149 (under F from "FOO"), and type > "C-u C-x =". The popped up buffer shows in its first line that the > character at point is "FOO" (while the echo area says it's `e'). > Bug? feature? It's a feature, but it has a bad effect in the above case. C-u C-x = (describe-char) tries to display the character at position in *Help* buffer as the same way as in the original buffer by adding the same text properties. (setq item-list `(("character" ,(format "%s (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" (apply 'propertize char-description (text-properties-at pos)) char char char)) Changing that part to something like this: (setq item-list `(("character" ,(format "%s (displayed as %s) (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" char-description (apply 'propertize char-description (text-properties-at pos)) char char char)) may be an improvement. --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 19:56:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpr9w-0007xj-RJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:56:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39140) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr9u-0007ug-Jx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:56:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr9t-00080z-2U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:56:18 -0500 Received: from mx1.aist.go.jp ([150.29.246.133]:33348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpr9s-00080t-I0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:56:17 -0500 Received: from rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp (rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp [150.29.254.115]) by mx1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0uBx4000066; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:11 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: from smtp1.aist.go.jp by rqsmtp1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0uAEV019120; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:11 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: by smtp1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0P0uAVn007744; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:10 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) From: Kenichi Handa To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 In-Reply-To: (message from Juanma Barranquero on Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:51:07 +0100) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:09 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 150.29.246.133 Cc: nil@mad.dog.cx, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:19 -0000 In article , Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 08:18, Kenichi Handa wrote: > > I agree with the change. =A0As my computer for Emacs hacking > > is begin repaired, it's difficult for me to commit it. > > Could someone please do it? > For 23.4 or trunk? 23.4 is better because the change to let encode_designation_at_bol return bytes was in 23.4. --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 21:15:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpsOb-0001lH-7h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40627) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpsOY-0001kf-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpsOV-0001M1-Ao for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:30 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:64122) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpsOV-0001Ln-1K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:27 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so2230361iad.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:15:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZZqWZckDxsZvu0QVEAjuNSyAySlfqfroIFQWC68GBKs=; b=wPTyebQp+wDbhYwMVf1WJ8xg6DApDQvxxWLhK0Vw1XUIoDGogDAODjO/vqfdpDevri DHY5mcz7tbhG7XklN+9zPfRqkwSxtixK7nYpcqhxovU363ebZjbvb5009WJAqZSWg4bv BomGvHWLe5nlNQ7fA1TtAQgLA5Xs2UH6YJq2I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.168.197 with SMTP id x5mr13750025icy.6.1327457726509; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:15:26 -0800 (PST) Sender: jordigh@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.59.145 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:15:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F1F356F.9040501@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4F1F3019.8060808@cs.ucla.edu> <4F1F356F.9040501@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:26 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aPMDoNN5aqC7EJLej6uzNORBjt8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Should configure fail if pkg-config fails? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jordi_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Hermoso?= To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Emacs development discussions X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:15:32 -0000 2012/1/24 Paul Eggert : > On 01/24/2012 02:42 PM, Jordi Guti=C3=A9rrez Hermoso wrote: >> pkg-config produced an error message to stderrr and exited >> with nonzero status > > Which invocation of pkg-config was it, exactly? > What arguments were passed to pkg-config? pkg-config --cflags --libs gtk+-2.0 > What was the diagnostic message? Package pixman-1 was not found in the pkg-config search path. Perhaps you should add the directory containing `pixman-1.pc' to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable Package 'pixman-1', required by 'cairo', not found > and the exit status? 1 > 'configure' can't simply exit whenever pkg-config returns > a nonzero exit status; sometimes pkg-config is *supposed* > to return a nonzero exit status. No, but it shouldn't assume that GTK+ is working correctly if pkg-config returns nonzero exit status. - Jordi G. H. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 24 22:53:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RptvK-0004KT-OI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:53:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34403) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpqA8-00019I-QB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:52:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpqA6-0000Xz-Le for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:52:28 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:42900) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpqA6-0000Xd-Bk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:52:26 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Jan 2012 23:52:23 -0000 Received: from 133.67.114.78.rev.sfr.net (EHLO nzebook.haselwarter.org) [78.114.67.133] by mail.gmx.net (mp029) with SMTP; 25 Jan 2012 00:52:23 +0100 X-Authenticated: #26138819 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18SGS4KwsYSXfsd2C4iN9FOTI1OvvUnpPz8q4Nphm 5yNxrgX9X/pcR7 From: Philipp Haselwarter To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] hide ERC messages X-NSA-Fodder: CDC 9/11 Taiwan Tony Blair fundamentalist counter terrorism Tomato: Green Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:52:21 +0100 Message-ID: <87k44gpsju.fsf@nzebook.haselwarter.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AUTODIN/Bin-Laden/Echelon/smuggle/Audiotel/JFK/TPzTCU+Hsf" X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.23 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:53:23 -0500 Cc: Michael Olson X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:52:29 -0000 --AUTODIN/Bin-Laden/Echelon/smuggle/Audiotel/JFK/TPzTCU+Hsf Content-Type: text/plain This patch for ERC offers an alternative method of hiding IRC messages in `erc-hide-list' by using the invisible text-property. This really /hides/ them instead of simply discarding them, which is the current way. The new method has the advantage of allowing to toggle the visibility as a minor-mode, buffer-locally or globally. The default behaviour is left unchanged, but it could easily be set to using invisible by modifying the `erc-hide-method' default. --AUTODIN/Bin-Laden/Echelon/smuggle/Audiotel/JFK/TPzTCU+Hsf Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=erc-hide_mode.patch Content-Description: hide irc messages using invisible text property --- /proc/self/fd/11 2012-01-24 20:14:43.208972689 +0100 +++ erc.el 2012-01-24 20:09:40.485514822 +0100 @@ -256,10 +256,23 @@ (defcustom erc-hide-list nil "*List of IRC type messages to hide. +Behaves according to `erc-hide-method'. A typical value would be '(\"JOIN\" \"PART\" \"QUIT\")." :group 'erc-ignore :type 'erc-message-type) +(defcustom erc-hide-method 'discard + "Either discard messages in `erc-hide-list' or make them invisible. + +The value discard results in complete dismissal of the message. +invisible means the messages are inserted into the erc-buffer but +hidden in `erc-hide-mode'. + +NOTE: Invisible messages are logged if `erc-log-mode' is active!" + :group 'erc-ignore + :type '(choice (const :tag "discard" discard) + (const :tag "make invisible" invisible))) + (defvar erc-session-password nil "The password used for the current session.") (make-variable-buffer-local 'erc-session-password) @@ -2469,11 +2482,37 @@ (if (not (erc-response-p parsed)) (erc-display-line string buffer) - (unless (member (erc-response.command parsed) erc-hide-list) + (when (or (not (member (erc-response.command parsed) erc-hide-list)) + (and (eq erc-hide-method 'invisible) + (progn + (unless (string-match "\n$" string) + (setq string (concat string "\n"))) + (erc-put-text-property + 0 (length string) 'invisible 'erc-hide string) + t))) (erc-put-text-property 0 (length string) 'erc-parsed parsed string) (erc-put-text-property 0 (length string) 'rear-sticky t string) (erc-display-line string buffer))))) +(define-minor-mode erc-hide-mode + "Make IRC messages matching `erc-hide-list' invisible. + +This mode only has an effect if `erc-hide-method' is set invisible." + :group 'erc-ignore + (if erc-hide-mode + (add-to-invisibility-spec 'erc-hide) + (remove-from-invisibility-spec 'erc-hide))) + +(defun erc-hide-mode-maybe (&optional buffer) + "Turn on `erc-hide-mode' in BUFFER (defaults to `current-buffer')." + (with-current-buffer (or buffer (current-buffer)) + (when (derived-mode-p 'erc-mode) + (erc-hide-mode)))) + +(define-globalized-minor-mode global-erc-hide-mode + erc-hide-mode erc-hide-mode-maybe + :group 'erc-ignore) + (defun erc-message-type-member (position list) "Return non-nil if the erc-parsed text-property at POSITION is in LIST. --AUTODIN/Bin-Laden/Echelon/smuggle/Audiotel/JFK/TPzTCU+Hsf Content-Type: text/plain Best regards, -- Philipp Haselwarter --AUTODIN/Bin-Laden/Echelon/smuggle/Audiotel/JFK/TPzTCU+Hsf-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 00:56:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpvqa-00051m-T8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvqX-0004zL-L8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvqV-0000E8-Oc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvqV-0000E3-LE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:35 -0500 Received: from [155.69.18.169] (port=36740 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvqR-0003WO-QV; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:56:32 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Kenichi Handa Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 References: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:56:20 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Kenichi Handa's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:09 +0900") Message-ID: <87vco0iauz.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: nil@mad.dog.cx, Juanma Barranquero , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:56:38 -0000 Kenichi Handa writes: > In article > , > Juanma Barranquero writes: > >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 08:18, Kenichi Handa wrote: >> > I agree with the change. =C2=A0As my computer for Emacs hacking >> > is begin repaired, it's difficult for me to commit it. >> > Could someone please do it? > >> For 23.4 or trunk? > > 23.4 is better because the change to let > encode_designation_at_bol return bytes was in 23.4. Committed to the emacs-23 branch, and merged to trunk. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 01:03:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpvxU-0006Pm-34 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:03:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55381) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvxR-0006Pe-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:03:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvxQ-0000vd-8b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:03:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57191) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvxQ-0000vY-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:03:44 -0500 Received: from [155.69.18.169] (port=36750 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpvxP-0003sI-98; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:03:43 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Leo Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? References: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:03:36 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:00:18 +0800") Message-ID: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:03:46 -0000 Leo writes: > Hello, > > I found in other editors something like this: > > ie they support wave underline. I am curious whether emacs can do this > too? I think implementing this would be a pain in the butt, since underlining is currently done with primitive X calls. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 01:07:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpw12-000771-Lz for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:07:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34269) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpw0z-00075k-TN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:07:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpw0y-0001Mw-BJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:07:25 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:56927) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpw0y-0001Mq-3j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:07:24 -0500 Received: by dang27 with SMTP id g27so3307797dan.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:07:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9M9jmq/klqKr1PhMCeGDOy+7OXM0jpxNhbv5rSqs6Mo=; b=xHSIMfaAqieB4lodU21OASwNFkvGcXbFHFgGbxKDiGxMQfAeJ5hFwBe60au6k14WzC yoYYn+athScTnmD6WAL6njKy+ZrRQ0SAYUg7HDpnRrekeyO21geNfpWT5WwXSQjwysYJ tIfLyJBLr8G0IcHd8dq/k8uUAV/lhYSJvKBac= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.189.69 with SMTP id gg5mr37637348pbc.41.1327471643168; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:07:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: nikolai.weibull@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.136.193 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:07:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F1F3E45.80606@harpegolden.net> References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> <4F1F3E45.80606@harpegolden.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:07:22 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: j_IM51lleeJH8DskYiRiBVMIqdw Message-ID: Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp From: Nikolai Weibull To: David De La Harpe Golden Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:07:27 -0000 On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 00:27, David De La Harpe Golden wrote: > On 24/01/12 08:41, Nikolai Weibull wrote: >> >> As an alternative to PCRE, which, as has already been pointed out, >> doesn=E2=80=99t match any of these requirements, how about RE2? >> >> http://code.google.com/p/re2/ >> >> It=E2=80=99s written in C++, which is a minus, but it should be simple e= nough >> to extend it with \c and \s. > If we're mentioning engines, CL-PPCRE by Dr. Edi Weitz is _in_ (common) l= isp > and generally nice (also 2-clause BSD-style licensed): > http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ CL-PPCRE is implemented using a backtracing NFA, so it=E2=80=99s not suited= to Stefan=E2=80=99s requirements. It would, had it not been for this fact, be= en a nice alternative. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 01:32:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpwPa-00032a-VQ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57405) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpwPY-00032U-AZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpwPW-0004Lk-LR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57749) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpwPW-0004Le-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:46 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpwPW-0008Iu-G3; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:32:46 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Kenichi Handa In-reply-to: (message from Kenichi Handa on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:09 +0900) Subject: Re: Character FOO References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:32:49 -0000 > From: Kenichi Handa > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:09 +0900 > > (setq item-list > `(("character" > ,(format "%s (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" > (apply 'propertize char-description > (text-properties-at pos)) > char char char)) > > Changing that part to something like this: > > (setq item-list > `(("character" > ,(format "%s (displayed as %s) (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" > char-description > (apply 'propertize char-description > (text-properties-at pos)) > char char char)) > > may be an improvement. Thanks. Does anyone object to this change on the trunk? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 01:46:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpwd1-0005wy-Lf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45442) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwcy-0005ws-Ue for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwcx-00060W-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:40 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:57964) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwcx-00060S-Qb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:39 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwcx-0003MM-Nq; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:46:39 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Chong Yidong In-reply-to: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Chong Yidong on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:03:36 +0800) Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:46:42 -0000 > From: Chong Yidong > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:03:36 +0800 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Leo writes: > > > I found in other editors something like this: > > > > ie they support wave underline. I am curious whether emacs can do this > > too? > > I think implementing this would be a pain in the butt, since underlining > is currently done with primitive X calls. What would be a less painful way of implementing the "wave" underlining? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 01:49:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpwfe-0006wc-JI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:49:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35645) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwfc-0006wT-4Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:49:24 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwfa-0006UX-Ff for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:49:24 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:43745) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpwfa-0006TB-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:49:22 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3689707F3; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:49:08 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A98FC1A2770; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:49:08 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? In-Reply-To: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:49:08 +0900 Message-ID: <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Leo , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:49:25 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > Leo writes: > > > Hello, > > > > I found in other editors something like this: > > > > ie they support wave underline. I am curious whether emacs can do this > > too? > > I think implementing this would be a pain in the butt, since underlining > is currently done with primitive X calls. If Emacs supports background pixmaps to attach to faces, then it should be possible to create an appropriate pixmap on the fly. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 02:13:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpx2z-0001bY-GH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33871) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpx2s-0001YG-9A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpx2o-0000eT-8R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:58252) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpx2o-0000eO-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:22 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpx2n-0007gD-U3; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 02:13:21 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" In-reply-to: <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (stephen@xemacs.org) Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: cyd@gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:13:31 -0000 > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:49:08 +0900 > Cc: Leo , emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Chong Yidong writes: > > Leo writes: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I found in other editors something like this: > > > > > > ie they support wave underline. I am curious whether emacs can do this > > > too? > > > > I think implementing this would be a pain in the butt, since underlining > > is currently done with primitive X calls. > > If Emacs supports background pixmaps to attach to faces, then it > should be possible to create an appropriate pixmap on the fly. We have the :stipple attribute of faces; is that what you mean? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 04:03:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RpylL-0003GT-Oh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:03:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55202) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpylI-0003DP-VE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:03:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpylE-0005bD-GJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:03:24 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60284) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpylE-0005b9-Eq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:03:20 -0500 Received: from [155.69.18.169] (port=38513 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RpylD-0006Id-9n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:03:20 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Next Emacs 24 pretest Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:03:13 +0800 Message-ID: <87aa5ctar2.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:03:25 -0000 I plan to make the next Emacs 24 pretest (24.0.93) this Sunday, the 29th. Please plan your commits accordingly. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 04:26:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rpz7x-0000M8-Lu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:26:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60276) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpz7q-0000IT-51 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:26:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpz7l-0000HT-W7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:26:42 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:55973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rpz7d-0000GL-FL; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:26:29 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCE19707DE; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:25 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ABC221A2770; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:25 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? In-Reply-To: References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:25 +0900 Message-ID: <871uqo3zge.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: cyd@gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:26:47 -0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: > > If Emacs supports background pixmaps to attach to faces, then it > > should be possible to create an appropriate pixmap on the fly. > > We have the :stipple attribute of faces; is that what you mean? I don't know how that works; never used it. In X11, "stipple" means a bitmap (mask), and I don't think that would cut it, you need to paint the whole background. I wouldn't be surprised if in Emacs it just means "background image", though. In XEmacs you can specify a color or a pixmap as background (bitmaps are promoted to pixmaps, but with -- until about a week ago -- less than satisfactory results). So you could specify a background pixmap (eg, as an XPM) as +------+ | | | | | | | | | ** | |* * | | **| +------+ and it will be tiled appropriately over the extent of the face, and the text will be printed over that in the foreground color. Sort of like poor man's image layers. Of course you have to set the background color of the pixmap to the background of the face, and you also have to get the height of the pixmap in pixels exactly right, I suspect. The latter might be difficult for some fonts, especially with sizes specified in printer's units rather than pixels. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 05:33:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq0A5-0007RI-2u for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:33:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36858) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq09y-0007R4-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:33:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq09t-00019u-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:32:57 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:38475) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq09t-00019B-D0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:32:53 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jan 2012 10:32:46 -0000 Received: from 62-47-40-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.40.234]) [62.47.40.234] by mail.gmx.net (mp070) with SMTP; 25 Jan 2012 11:32:46 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/wbHo2BcnwlBOaDw+MHqjAANYYg1I03QkULU1zRc Af3keAIfXUoH+E Message-ID: <4F1FDA4D.6040502@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:32:45 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:33:03 -0000 >> `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal >> with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unexpected >> behavior from user point of view. > > I tend to agree. Martin, what do you think? I agree as well. I'll also remove the parts dealing with `window-size-fixed'. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 06:04:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq0e0-0005El-2w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:04:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56788) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq0du-0005CW-AH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:03:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq0dq-0005LW-3X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:03:54 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f199.google.com ([74.125.82.199]:46234) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq0dp-0005LS-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:03:50 -0500 Received: by werg1 with SMTP id g1so1475455wer.6 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:03:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.69 with SMTP id g5mr464464ebd.1.1327489428681; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:03:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqe8g16p.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Message-ID: <0015174be6c8d6fc6104b758379c@google.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:03:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Juri Linkov , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be6c8d6fc3b04b7583799 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.199 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:03:58 -0000 --0015174be6c8d6fc3b04b7583799 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Nice idea. Let me try and tweak the patch to work in this way. I want to test it and see how it feels. Thanks, Gideon. On , Juri Linkov wrote: > > Anyway, please review it and if there is any interest in it merge it. > Thanks for proposing a useful feature. > I suggest to implement more simple and clean design that is > based on well-known Emacs features: > 1. On the next matched strings display numbers counting from 1. > You could try doing with tooltips that will look like in Conkeror, > (this might be too slow, but worth trying). > This is easy to do in `isearch-lazy-highlight-update' > 2. Add a new numeric argument `count' to `isearch-repeat-forward' (`Cs') > and `isearch-repeat-backward' (`Cr'). > This would allow easy navigation with eg `C-8 Cs' for the 8-th match > in forward direction. > 3. For backward matches we could display negative numbers, > and `Cs' will treat negative arguments like `C- C-8 Cs' > as positive counts for backward search. > Also `Cr' would treat positive arguments like `C-8 Cr' as positive > counts in backward direction. A negative arguments for `Cr' like > `C- C-8 Cr' would go to the 8-th match in forward direction, naturally. --0015174be6c8d6fc3b04b7583799 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice idea. Let me try and tweak the patch to work in this way. I want to te= st it and see how it feels.

Thanks, Gideon.

On , Juri= Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:
> > Anyway, please review = it and if there is any interest in it merge it.
>
>
= >
> Thanks for proposing a useful feature.
>
>=
>
> I suggest to implement more simple and clean design = that is
>
> based on well-known Emacs features:
> =
>
>
> 1. On the next matched strings display num= bers counting from 1.
>
> =A0 You could try doing with to= oltips that will look like in Conkeror,
>
> =A0 (this mig= ht be too slow, but worth trying).
>
> =A0 This is easy t= o do in `isearch-lazy-highlight-update'
>
>
>=
> 2. Add a new numeric argument `count' to `isearch-repeat-fo= rward' (`C-s')
>
> =A0 and `isearch-repeat-backwa= rd' (`C-r').
>
>
>
> =A0 This w= ould allow easy navigation with e.g. `C-8 C-s' for the 8-th match
= >
> =A0 in forward direction.
>
>
> =
> 3. For backward matches we could display negative numbers,
= >
> =A0 and `C-s' will treat negative arguments like `C- C= -8 C-s'
>
> =A0 as positive counts for backward searc= h.
>
>
>
> =A0 Also `C-r' would tre= at positive arguments like `C-8 C-r' as positive
>
> = =A0 counts in backward direction. =A0A negative arguments for `C-r' lik= e
>
> =A0 `C- C-8 C-r' would go to the 8-th match in = forward direction, naturally.
>
> --0015174be6c8d6fc3b04b7583799-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 06:39:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq1C7-0006lA-5c for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:39:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1C1-0006kp-PX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:39:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1Bx-0002ru-Tj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:39:09 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:55176 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1Bx-0002ra-Jq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:39:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72AC451C7EB; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:37:58 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: gideon.stupp@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search Organization: JURTA References: <0015174be6c8d6fc6104b758379c@google.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:29:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0015174be6c8d6fc6104b758379c@google.com> (gideon stupp's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:03:48 +0000") Message-ID: <87zkdcm2wb.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:39:13 -0000 > Nice idea. Let me try and tweak the patch to work in this way. I want to > test it and see how it feels. BTW, there is another useful search feature missing in Isearch. In Chromium, the Search prompt displays the current search position and the total number of matches. It would be useful to implement this in Isearch. It helps to orient oneself while searching - to see how many matches are remaining to visit with C-s, etc. This information could be displayed in the mode-line in the usual format that can be seen in some Emacs packages, e.g. "7/24". The main problem is in the performance impact to count the total number of matches. Perhaps to not affect the responsiveness these computations should be placed in `isearch-lazy-highlight'. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 07:00:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq1WG-0006kq-EU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:00:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1W4-0006a4-HI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1W0-0006Vh-2d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:52 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f199.google.com ([209.85.212.199]:47637) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq1Vz-0006Vd-S0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:48 -0500 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so226122wib.6 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:59:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.104.103 with SMTP id gd7mr2247657wib.4.1327492786588; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:59:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87zkdcm2wb.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:59:46 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Juri Linkov , gideon.stupp@gmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d041825f0fc8d4b04b758ff31 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.199 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:59:59 -0000 --f46d041825f0fc8d4b04b758ff31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Chromium counts all the matches in the page, presented or hidden. For Emacs I don't think it is feasible to read the entire file. BTW isearch-lazy-highlight takes into consideration only the matches that are currently on screen. Thanks, Gideon. On , Juri Linkov wrote: > > Nice idea. Let me try and tweak the patch to work in this way. I want to > > test it and see how it feels. > BTW, there is another useful search feature missing in Isearch. > In Chromium, the Search prompt displays the current search position > and the total number of matches. It would be useful to implement this > in Isearch. It helps to orient oneself while searching - to see > how many matches are remaining to visit with Cs, etc. > This information could be displayed in the mode-line in the usual format > that can be seen in some Emacs packages, eg "7/24". > The main problem is in the performance impact to count the total > number of matches. Perhaps to not affect the responsiveness > these computations should be placed in `isearch-lazy-highlight'. --f46d041825f0fc8d4b04b758ff31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chromium counts all the matches in the page, presented or hidden. For Emacs= I don't think it is feasible to read the entire file. BTW isearch-lazy= -highlight takes into consideration only the matches that are currently on = screen.

Thanks, Gideon.

On , Juri Linkov <juri@jur= ta.org> wrote:
> > Nice idea. Let me try and tweak the patch = to work in this way. I want to
>
> > test it and see ho= w it feels.
>
>
>
> BTW, there is anothe= r useful search feature missing in Isearch.
>
>
>=
> In Chromium, the Search prompt displays the current search posi= tion
>
> and the total number of matches. =A0It would be u= seful to implement this
>
> in Isearch. =A0It helps to ori= ent oneself while searching - to see
>
> how many matches = are remaining to visit with C-s, etc.
>
>
>
> This information could be displayed in the mode-line in the usual for= mat
>
> that can be seen in some Emacs packages, e.g. &quo= t;7/24".
>
>
>
> The main problem i= s in the performance impact to count the total
>
> number = of matches. =A0Perhaps to not affect the responsiveness
>
>= ; these computations should be placed in `isearch-lazy-highlight'.
>
> --f46d041825f0fc8d4b04b758ff31-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 07:48:09 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq2Gn-0004uo-EI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:48:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59877) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq2Gk-0004ui-KL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:48:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq2Gj-0005sP-HL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:48:06 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:49566 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq2Gj-0005rv-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:48:05 -0500 Received: (qmail 78201 invoked by uid 3782); 25 Jan 2012 12:48:01 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9556726.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.103.38]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:47:59 +0100 Received: (qmail 3806 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jan 2012 12:48:04 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:48:04 +0000 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Hannu Koivisto X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:48:07 -0000 Hi, Emacs. (define-minor-mode font-lock-mode ....), calls font-lock-default-function which calls font-lock-mode-internal which calls font-lock-fontify-buffer. This call of f-l-fontify-buffer happens before font-lock-mode-hook is run, since the defined-minor-mode runs the hook as the _very_ last thing. Thus the buffer's f-l-stuff is potentially not fully initialised at this first call of f-l-fontify-buffer. This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC Mode crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't happen for every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. Suggested fix: (i) Amend define-minor-mode to have an extra parameter :run-hooks with default t. (ii) Set it to nil for f-l-mode, and explicitly write the hook run in the appropriate place. Incidentally, XEmacs does run this hook in the correct place. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 08:45:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq3AA-0007Bu-57 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39027) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq3A2-000781-1I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq39x-0001jY-Kp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:13 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:56673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq39x-0001jU-Gc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:09 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAHQGIE9soXGu/2dsb2JhbABCrj2BBoFyAQEFViMQCzQSFBgNJMBBiSsCAQUCBQYWBAICAQIBg1gBCQUQBoM1BIg/mneEVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,568,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158859761" Received: from 108-161-113-174.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([108.161.113.174]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 25 Jan 2012 08:45:08 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 863795907B; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:08 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management Message-ID: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F1FDA4D.6040502@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:45:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F1FDA4D.6040502@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:32:45 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my?= Compostella , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:45:20 -0000 >>> `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal >>> with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unexpected >>> behavior from user point of view. >> I tend to agree. Martin, what do you think? > I agree as well. I'll also remove the parts dealing with > `window-size-fixed'. Great, thank you, Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 09:00:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq3PB-0006dh-4p for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:00:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59660) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq3Oz-0006Gr-6m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:00:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq3Os-0005AN-MU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:00:40 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:44787) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq3Os-00059W-4w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:00:34 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676609707E4; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:00:30 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 364B51A2770; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:00:30 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: gideon.stupp@gmail.com Subject: Re: Re: [PATCH] Conkeror like hints for incremental search In-Reply-To: References: <87zkdcm2wb.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:00:30 +0900 Message-ID: <87ty3j3mrl.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:00:51 -0000 gideon.stupp@gmail.com writes: > Chromium counts all the matches in the page, presented or hidden. For Emacs > I don't think it is feasible to read the entire file. For non-regexp search, in interactive use, Emacs should be plenty fast to search and count entire files up to a few MB, and maybe an order of magnitude or three more. At the very least it should be tried! From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 09:52:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq4DG-00028Z-Nb for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:52:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49877) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4DC-00028Q-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:52:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4DB-0000L2-1q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:52:34 -0500 Received: from icebox.esperi.org.uk ([81.187.191.129]:42440 helo=mail.esperi.org.uk) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4DA-0000KY-ND for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:52:33 -0500 Received: from esperi.org.uk (nix@spindle.srvr.nix [192.168.14.15]) by mail.esperi.org.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0PEqNAH004924; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:52:23 GMT Received: (from nix@localhost) by esperi.org.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0PEqNL7007872; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:52:23 GMT From: Nix To: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com Subject: Re: Memory Leak was: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 8 messages References: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Emacs: a compelling argument for pencil and paper. Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:52:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (T. V. Raman's message of "Sat, 7 Jan 2012 19:28:03 -0800") Message-ID: <877h0f7s2g.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-DCC-wuwien-Metrics: spindle 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 81.187.191.129 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:52:38 -0000 On 8 Jan 2012, T. V. Raman outgrape: > Before starting Emacs: `free' shows 2gb in use. An aside: the memory-in-use numbers from free are essentially meaningless. ps -o rss,vsz -C emacs from a shell buffer is what you probably want. (er, assuming that you can *get* a shell buffer without bringing Emacs to its knees). -- NULL && (void) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 10:02:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq4MY-0003Ym-Vm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:02:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50967) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4MR-0003Ye-Sv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:02:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4MQ-0001qB-7y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:02:07 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:38259) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4MQ-0001q5-1P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:02:06 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so7282820obb.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:02:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=eXPvNfkKwlbxRkPY+/xhg9/JHumbmO8EH9X7rNH6FUc=; b=aGA5JTKMn1kJMgjARiebBNihFxUcjm7mY4RiAM3TgeFzC9hQMiyuH0FhnwIomu8onc aNgr1E7f+MEO1IhbDb+Vp/Lr9iPTRlDTtcmJoSPwCpd5ElcS4T7Y0B9myKExK5oGgDkr xOGh4vbxPsm7Zr6F1xwrjrIS++AKZF9jKGc7c= Received: by 10.182.36.35 with SMTP id n3mr15942697obj.66.1327503725158; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:02:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.49.103 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:01:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87zkdjtr4v.fsf@Apollo.jerryland.fr> <4F1FDA4D.6040502@gmx.at> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:01:44 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] window.el: Improve mark management To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444ef37f9dfe804b75b8b66 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: martin rudalics , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:02:13 -0000 --f46d0444ef37f9dfe804b75b8b66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you to both of you. J=E9r=E9my 2012/1/25 Stefan Monnier > >>> `window-state-get' and `window-state-put' should not deal > >>> with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unexpected > >>> behavior from user point of view. > >> I tend to agree. Martin, what do you think? > > I agree as well. I'll also remove the parts dealing with > > `window-size-fixed'. > > Great, thank you, > > > Stefan > --=20 =AB Si debugger, c'est supprimer des bugs, alors programmer ne peut =EAtre = que les ajouter =BB - Edsger Dijkstra --f46d0444ef37f9dfe804b75b8b66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you to both of you.

J=E9r=E9my

2012/1/25 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
>>> `window-state-get'= and `window-state-put' should not deal
>>> with mark as it's not relevant at all and leads to an unex= pected
>>> behavior from user point of view.
>> I tend to agree. =A0Martin, what do you think?
> I agree as well. =A0I'll also remove the parts dealing with
> `window-size-fixed'.

Great, thank you,


=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Stefan



--
=AB Si debug= ger, c'est supprimer des bugs, alors programmer ne peut =EAtre que les = ajouter =BB - Edsger Dijkstra
--f46d0444ef37f9dfe804b75b8b66-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 10:20:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq4eX-0000Lg-A9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:20:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42105) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4eU-0000La-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:20:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4eQ-0004kA-G3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:20:46 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55210) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4eQ-0004jc-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:20:42 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq4eM-000546-Hx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:20:38 +0100 Received: from 38.98.147.133 ([38.98.147.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:20:38 +0100 Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:20:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Memory again Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:53 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 36 Message-ID: <87obtrhhzq.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <4ED0F945.5090805@yandex.ru> <83pqge7syw.fsf@gnu.org> <87mxb6tkji.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87borlu0kc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <4EEE0315.60405@yandex.ru> <4EEEF5B4.3050806@yandex.ru> <87vco2cqji.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.133 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:pjUSNybT/vARp+No+h9kJp9sruo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:20:48 -0000 On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:49:37 +0000 Nix wrote: N> On 19 Dec 2011, Stefan Monnier outgrape: >>>> I agree that we're probably going to see better overall results by >>>> improving general memory use than by trying to attack >>>> fragmentation problems. >>> Among this list's subscribers, Nix is constantly >>> reporting an enormous memory usage caused by Gnus. >> >> I think we still have a leak there somewhere. N> Confirmed. With Dmitry's immediate-string patch (which works perfectly N> otherwise): N> RSS VSZ USER STIME N> 720696 1008752 gnus Jan07 N> 242740 525592 hacking 2011 N> Despite running for less than half the time, the Gnus Emacs is twice the N> size. It bloats more slowly than without Dmitry's patch, but it still N> bloats. N> I suspect that the only way I'll be able to provide a reproducible N> recipe for this is to instrument Emacs to record all allocations and GCs N> and when they happen, so that someone else can play this back to observe N> WTF is going on. Doing this compactly enough to run over weeks without N> serving as a DoS-attack on my own system may be... interesting. I N> haven't done any work toward this yet though. Some valgrind recipes were posted that may help. Can you try them? I could not put together a test case to cause memory bloat with GnuTLS usage alone. Do you want to try that? If such a test case can be shown to cause bloat without Gnus, we'll know where to look. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 11:58:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq6BN-0007I3-DW for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:58:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39890) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6BF-0007Fm-UM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:58:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6BA-0003dJ-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:58:41 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:53825) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6B3-0003bc-Vt; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:58:30 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0PGwPvH009879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:58:26 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0PGwOWY003344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:58:25 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0PGwNiU028733; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:58:24 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:58:22 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , "'Kenichi Handa'" References: Subject: RE: Character FOO Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:58:21 -0800 Message-ID: <165D22A23B7643CD9563B716D06BDC38@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczbKy16hAkatwl2TPW1VjjNEAgFwQAVr/Lg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4F2034B2.0138,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:58:47 -0000 > > Changing that part to something like this: ... > > may be an improvement. > > Does anyone object to this change on the trunk? It's a good change. Why not apply this patch as well, while you're at it: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10129 From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 12:46:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq6vM-0006D1-3h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50536) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6vD-0006C4-17 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6v8-0004yF-Ou for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:10 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:58608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6v8-0004yB-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:06 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAJY+IE9soXGu/2dsb2JhbABDrkGBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgPuCiJKwIBBQIFBhYEAgIBAgGDWAEJBRAGgzUEiD+ad4RX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,569,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158939194" Received: from 108-161-113-174.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([108.161.113.174]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 25 Jan 2012 12:46:05 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C4FE75905C; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:48:04 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Hannu Koivisto , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0000 > This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC Mode > crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't happen for > every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. I think the behavior depends on the use of font-lock-support-mode. With jit-lock, fontification takes place after running the mode-hook, whereas without it, fontification takes place before. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 13:27:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq7Yn-0007fr-TT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:27:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56756) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq7Yg-0007T5-60 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:27:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq7Ya-0002j4-6l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:26:57 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:63305 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq7YZ-0002ii-SL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:26:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 3754 invoked by uid 3782); 25 Jan 2012 18:26:48 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9556726.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.103.38]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:26:47 +0100 Received: (qmail 3632 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jan 2012 18:26:51 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:51 +0000 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Hannu Koivisto , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:27:02 -0000 Hello, Stefan. On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 12:46:04PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC Mode > > crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't happen for > > every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. > I think the behavior depends on the use of font-lock-support-mode. > With jit-lock, fontification takes place after running the mode-hook, > whereas without it, fontification takes place before. Surely this cannot be - the hooks are run at the end of the define-minor-mode expansion no matter what. Surely the hooks are not being run twice. Though I admit I haven't tracked down the stages in initialising jit-lock-mode. Hannu's bug report said nothing about disabling jit-lock, so I presume it was enabled. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 14:36:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq8dv-00044X-RP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35566) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq8dt-00041w-Gf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq8ds-0005dH-4Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:25 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:33532) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq8ds-0005cK-21 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:24 -0500 Received: by mail-gx0-f169.google.com with SMTP id k5so3189427ggn.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=vbVtvoGf56W5lrLJ9glUm040QLz3cdY6QlNC2f1SAko=; b=Q2ABXG0mZPvicuo2yEpD3AfLSKZSRRCad4iggFTe8pgzil8tjxnzMacZdS0JrV937i T+6daHujqhd5/6d3L8NtqWuhfSF+rbt9fgEm+yojD9uuJ8lOKUVU0IHjLI3dYChezPuI P1dU6pdSgcjENSfjnEP+UETQHAjCODaYd4bU4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.77.234 with SMTP id v10mr7671127igw.29.1327520183144; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.138 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20233.3395.93384.91217@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Memory Leak was: Re: Update on the Emacs release schedule? 8 messages From: "T.V. Raman" To: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:36:26 -0000 Hi Stephane, I just installed the emacs 23.4 prebuild on the workstation that shows the memory leak with emacs-24 from git, and am happy to report there is no leak. On 1/8/12, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Before starting Emacs: `free' shows 2gb in use. > > FWIW, "free" is not a very good tool to track the memory use of > a specific process. Better check the VSZ and RSS of the process itself > (and note that RSS can stay stable even in the presence of a leak, > so VSZ is important). > >> Start Emacs 24 -- with just emacspeak loaded -- no immediate >> signs of a leak -- `free' shows abut 6gb in use -- which does >> seem a lot. > > What is Emacs's RSS and/or VSZ at startup? > >> M-x shell in that emacs >> and wait for a couple of minutes. > >> Running `free' on a separate terminal shows that all 12GB of >> memory in use -- emacs RSS is at 10GB. > >> If you dont kill the runnning emacs-24 at that point, it brings >> the workstation to its knees and the machine stops responding and >> needs to be rebooted. > > So you're saying that "emacs -Q" plus emacspeak plus "M-x shell" results > on this machine in a process hat keeps growing even if you leave > it alone? > Could you run it under GDB (from the `emacs/src' directory) and > interrupt the process (with C-z) every once in a while to try and see > what it's doing? > > > Stefan > From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 15:28:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq9SI-0000di-Mo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:28:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46884) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq9SF-0000L9-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:28:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq9Mn-0003mJ-6l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:22:50 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:47816 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq9Mm-0003m1-Pc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:22:49 -0500 Received: (qmail 14866 invoked by uid 3782); 25 Jan 2012 20:22:46 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9556726.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.103.38]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:22:45 +0100 Received: (qmail 4036 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jan 2012 20:22:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:22:49 +0000 To: Hannu Koivisto Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: <20120125202249.GC3624@acm.acm> References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> <83vcnzy4c3.fsf@kalahari.s2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83vcnzy4c3.fsf@kalahari.s2.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:28:29 -0000 Hi, Hannu. On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 09:22:52PM +0200, Hannu Koivisto wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 12:46:04PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> > This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC > >> > Mode crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't > >> > happen for every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. > Indeed yesterday, after my initial report, I debugged the problem a bit > more and also noticed that it happens with some files but not with > others. It seemed that there was asynchronous behaviour at play that > might explain that but I didn't have time to track why the asynchronity > happened with some files but with others font-lock-mode ended up > calling font-lock-fontify-buffer before running the hooks. It will only happen on the first file (or a initial sequence of files), since it is a global variable not being set which triggered the crash. Looking at lazy-lock.el, there appears to be a minimum size below which lazy-lock won't be active. That size is 25,600 by default. Could it be that files smaller than this cause the crash, files bigger don't? > >> I think the behavior depends on the use of font-lock-support-mode. > >> With jit-lock, fontification takes place after running the mode-hook, > >> whereas without it, fontification takes place before. > So do you agree that the code should be changed so that fontification > always happens after running the mode-hook? Yes, absolutely. > > Surely this cannot be - the hooks are run at the end of the > > define-minor-mode expansion no matter what. Surely the hooks are not > > being run twice. Though I admit I haven't tracked down the stages in > > initialising jit-lock-mode. > > Hannu's bug report said nothing about disabling jit-lock, so I presume it > > was enabled. > I didn't talk about my configuration at all because I was hoping to > eventually reproduce the problem starting with emacs -q if my > observation about what I felt was clearly problematic call chain didn't > lead to a fix. My configuration uses lazy-lock. Gladly I can see from > your mail to bug-cc-mode that you have been able to reproduce the > problem with emacs -q and font-lock-support-mode set to nil with small > files. > I'd guess that with lazy-lock it decides to postpone fontification > with some files but not with others. I can't help but wonder why > the problem doesn't occur with all files when > font-lock-support-mode is set to nil. Then again, I don't know > what font-lock-support-mode being nil really means, I'm just > assuming that in that case fontification should never be postponed. Pretty much. > -- > Hannu -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 16:02:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq9zY-0007OU-Ku for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45408) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6ie-0008QH-6Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:33:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6iZ-0002qY-5D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:33:11 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:63244) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6iM-0002oK-1Y; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:32:54 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so7494560obb.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:32:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=j6XC/ntXbB0eQsq0gWboyozadez2KuhQR+xtnLxA+dI=; b=InJ7wiTowcTPyUn2V+ELzbvE/Pd42AdJIbA4YOxRdAlSt6ultrbr8oitQN+iuDnh1w Nzsdb5nX7Ua94IctuGnrJKtJwplGnvHnK3TFqT+Rh+wdiWLBxB7bQw7nvHRqJoDIZrsb m6r254PbYwXzgsO+c890y661WamB+O/5lzFI0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.116.38 with SMTP id jt6mr16514450obb.52.1327512772326; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:32:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <871uqo3zge.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <871uqo3zge.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:32:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=14dae9399ac13ab5ca04b75da75c X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:48 -0500 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:33:18 -0000 --14dae9399ac13ab5ca04b75da75c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > In XEmacs you can specify a color or a pixmap as background (bitmaps > are promoted to pixmaps, but with -- until about a week ago -- less > than satisfactory results). =C2=A0So you could specify a background pixma= p > (eg, as an XPM) as > [...] > and it will be tiled appropriately over the extent of the face, and > the text will be printed over that in the foreground color. =C2=A0Sort of > like poor man's image layers. I think it would be simpler to do directly in C. I'm new to this but it should be simple to add a new field "underwave_p" in struct face ( with underline_p, overline_p) in dispextern.h:1590 and handle it (for X11) near xterm.c:2756. 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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d04446c570d8b7604b75db4c9 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:48 -0500 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:36:41 -0000 --f46d04446c570d8b7604b75db4c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Screenshot attached for the lazy (and because i'm happy with the result :) --f46d04446c570d8b7604b75db4c9 Content-Type: image/png; name="underwave.png" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="underwave.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_gxun24vf1 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABAAAAAJYCAIAAABzcgN0AAAAA3NCSVQICAjb4U/gAAAgAElEQVR4 Xu3dPXbsunYg4Cuvm3Xk0KntpOPnKTjstIfwxtA9gx7DG0JPwVNw3ont1KGHoIYEXRw8AATJAllF FD8FWhSIn40POmvtXVVH/PjTn/702+avv/vnP2/u+9t//stftnfWkwABAgQIECBAgACBJwj8Htb4 r//6ry0r/e3f/m3o9m///h9bOv/jP/z99pm3TLilT4xw43a2TKgPAQIECBAgQOBwARnL4aQm3C4Q fv2+CoD6689//vNf/rLp9fv/93//Txz+3//n/6rn0UKAAAECBAgQILBRYEsCVvepW+rl9vYJ/fNJ OmnhdWYOAaewlwJu7mt1VHPmB0Y1V0/OuWStWrfEgZ1RnQgbBUARXP07lFpC9p/y/vy6M8QtAgQI 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esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq8Qw-0002iI-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:23:02 -0500 Received: from azure by kalahari.s2.org with local (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq8Qm-0003Te-K0; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:22:52 +0200 From: Hannu Koivisto To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:22:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:51 +0000") Message-ID: <83vcnzy4c3.fsf@kalahari.s2.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: azure@iki.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on kalahari.s2.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.83.7.53 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:48 -0500 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:23:05 -0000 Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Stefan. > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 12:46:04PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> > This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC Mode >> > crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't happen for >> > every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. Indeed yesterday, after my initial report, I debugged the problem a bit more and also noticed that it happens with some files but not with others. It seemed that there was asynchronous behaviour at play that might explain that but I didn't have time to track why the asynchronity happened with some files but with others font-lock-mode ended up calling font-lock-fontify-buffer before running the hooks. >> I think the behavior depends on the use of font-lock-support-mode. >> With jit-lock, fontification takes place after running the mode-hook, >> whereas without it, fontification takes place before. So do you agree that the code should be changed so that fontification always happens after running the mode-hook? > Surely this cannot be - the hooks are run at the end of the > define-minor-mode expansion no matter what. Surely the hooks are not > being run twice. Though I admit I haven't tracked down the stages in > initialising jit-lock-mode. > > Hannu's bug report said nothing about disabling jit-lock, so I presume it > was enabled. I didn't talk about my configuration at all because I was hoping to eventually reproduce the problem starting with emacs -q if my observation about what I felt was clearly problematic call chain didn't lead to a fix. My configuration uses lazy-lock. Gladly I can see from your mail to bug-cc-mode that you have been able to reproduce the problem with emacs -q and font-lock-support-mode set to nil with small files. I'd guess that with lazy-lock it decides to postpone fontification with some files but not with others. I can't help but wonder why the problem doesn't occur with all files when font-lock-support-mode is set to nil. Then again, I don't know what font-lock-support-mode being nil really means, I'm just assuming that in that case fontification should never be postponed. -- Hannu From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 16:02:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rq9za-0007U9-C5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52839) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq96K-0000BX-4v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:05:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq96H-0001Pw-Mi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:05:48 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:35033) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq96E-0001PG-S1; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:05:43 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so7705283obb.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:05:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=rMTS60Qd81nhCiYjI+SbTjxCDE8N1QovTkwTuIGXixY=; b=RpY6j1YdDjja0pNk+foYZTel1kJFYCmAe9anNBIuBbjjmehqr9XEbecwUl5leBf/xR 2PYxne2wO/SjtIMJoNmUig7jSQMKBKU6bMJn7nRlGY1FCF2iT0Cp5shEdBVwlQVcqaX+ 4RsfM7BYvDovhpHKdRhdNOyXrIIFKiPjeXIRg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.116.38 with SMTP id jt6mr16945045obb.52.1327521941808; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:05:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <87r4yoiaiv.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b446qj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <871uqo3zge.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:05:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Does face support underline other than a straight line? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=14dae9399ac1c5e4a704b75fc9cb X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:02:48 -0500 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:05:49 -0000 --14dae9399ac1c5e4a704b75fc9cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Oops, there's a typo in the source, s/XColorMap/Colormap/ Fixed source attached, sorry for spamming. --14dae9399ac1c5e4a704b75fc9cb Content-Type: text/x-csrc; charset=US-ASCII; name="underwave.c" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="underwave.c" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_gxusepjq1 LyogCiAgIFgxMSB1bmRlcndhdmVkIHRleHQgZXhhbXBsZSBieSA8YXVyZWxpZW4uYXB0ZWxAZ21h aWwuY29tPgogICBVc2FnZTogZ2NjIC1sWDExIHVuZGVyd2F2ZS5jICYmIC4vYS5vdXQgCiAgIFBy ZXNzIEVTQyB0byBxdWl0LCBhbnkgb3RoZXIga2V5IHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgc3RyaW5ncwoqLwoj aW5jbHVkZSA8c3RkaW8uaD4KI2luY2x1ZGUgPHN0ZGxpYi5oPgojaW5jbHVkZSA8c3RyaW5nLmg+ CiNpbmNsdWRlIDx0aW1lLmg+CiNpbmNsdWRlIDxYMTEvWGxpYi5oPgojaW5jbHVkZSA8WDExL2tl eXN5bS5oPgoKI2RlZmluZSBSQU5EKG1pbixtYXgpIChyYW5kKCklKChtYXgpLShtaW4pKSsobWlu 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(envelope-from ) id 1RqAMe-0004MF-FF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:26:45 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f41.google.com ([209.85.215.41]:39829) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqAMe-0004MB-7b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:26:44 -0500 Received: by lagw12 with SMTP id w12so4068325lag.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=0PheYotusaQQDaTM4sV5CbaEodj4pnGYaSn06ZQKGLk=; b=vFApyyFJzl/d0FKRVVuziHyR047C2vAwEFmGuH4wh8wd+deCmq8OsSNKUJSYmWslKD 7tcQ2x6V+niiP1+gaUMuPl31Vla0WrQDiSb+e+LKRAgVfKa+xcW1ylsPSk/i0rH3/akX Ib21r0Zpxnl2AQgRrAykIi5ghwP7s4H8IeO8E= Received: by 10.152.110.102 with SMTP id hz6mr2549400lab.21.1327526803132; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.97.11 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:26:22 -0800 (PST) From: Lennart Borgman Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:26:22 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Shouldn't it be easier to find info on how to learn Emacs to recognize compiler output? To: Emacs-Devel devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:26:46 -0000 I have for a while just plovr (a javascript compiler). The output from plovr is infortunately not following the usual standard so Emacs does not recognize it. Two questions: - I can't remember how to change the way Emacs looks for errors. And it is hard to find it. Should not that be a bit easier? For example compilation-mode might have a link to it. - What is the normal formatting of compilation errors called? From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 16:55:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqAoF-0005XZ-RE for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43503) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqAoD-0005Wc-JN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqAoC-00005L-Lt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:53088) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqAoC-00005H-Ez for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:12 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqAoB-0004y2-Lm; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:11 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: doc/lispref/makefile.w32-in questions X-Spook: eavesdropping radar IDEA mailbomb EuroFed 22nd SAS X-Ran: }U~XCO4[>]W\#MRK0c*-!V4l_eT2IGqMr2NK{b4ay+k'y2@no1Al]M~dWJ,X|sIPdX=Duj X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:55:11 -0500 Message-ID: <9ity3j1m80.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:55:14 -0000 doc/lispref/makefile.w32-in: Q1) texinputdir = $(srcdir)\..\..\nt\envadd.bat \ "TEXINPUTS=$(srcdir);$(texinputdir);$(TEXINPUTS)" \ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should that not be $(texinfodir)? Q2): VERSION=2.9 ## FIXME can this be set by configure, as per Makefile.in? manual = elisp-manual-23-$(VERSION) Unused? If not, version number needs bumping to 24. (It was used by the dist target prior to Emacs 23.) From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 19:38:04 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqDLo-0005pD-U8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:38:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqDLm-0005p4-A2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:38:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqDLk-0003IQ-Gl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:38:02 -0500 Received: from mx1.aist.go.jp ([150.29.246.133]:62089) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqDLj-0003IJ-R5; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:38:00 -0500 Received: from rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp (rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp [150.29.254.123]) by mx1.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0Q0bphC015761; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:37:51 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: from smtp2.aist.go.jp by rqsmtp2.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0Q0bo0w014798; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:37:50 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) Received: by smtp2.aist.go.jp with ESMTP id q0Q0bnEF020029; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:37:50 +0900 (JST) env-from (handa@m17n.org) From: Kenichi Handa To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release candidate 1 In-Reply-To: <87vco0iauz.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Chong Yidong on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:56:20 +0800) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:37:49 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 9 X-Received-From: 150.29.246.133 Cc: nil@mad.dog.cx, lekktu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:38:03 -0000 In article <87vco0iauz.fsf@gnu.org>, Chong Yidong writes: > Kenichi Handa writes: > > In article > > , > > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 08:18, Kenichi Handa wrote: >>> > I agree with the change. =A0As my computer for Emacs hacking >>> > is begin repaired, it's difficult for me to commit it. >>> > Could someone please do it? > > >>> For 23.4 or trunk? > > > > 23.4 is better because the change to let > > encode_designation_at_bol return bytes was in 23.4. > Committed to the emacs-23 branch, and merged to trunk. Thanks. Thank you! --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 20:43:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqENW-0006Bo-Ts for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37335) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqENU-00069E-1C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqENS-00033Y-V6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:51 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:65427) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqENS-00033U-RM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAGKvIE9FpZaC/2dsb2JhbABDrkSBBoFyAQEEAVYeBQULCw4mEhQYDSSID7gbiSsCAQUCBQYWBAIFg1kBCQUQBoM1BIg/mneEVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,572,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="159065289" Received: from 69-165-150-130.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.165.150.130]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 25 Jan 2012 20:43:49 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 145D366107; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:43:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:26:51 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: Hannu Koivisto , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:43:53 -0000 >> > This situation was found and analysed by Hannu Koivisto after CC Mode >> > crashed for this reason on a C++ buffer. Why it doesn't happen for >> > every CC Mode buffer is not yet clear. >> I think the behavior depends on the use of font-lock-support-mode. >> With jit-lock, fontification takes place after running the mode-hook, >> whereas without it, fontification takes place before. > Surely this cannot be I'm pretty sure this is the source of the difference. > the hooks are run at the end of the define-minor-mode expansion no > matter what. Yes, but fontification can take place even later, depending on font-lock-support-mode. > Surely the hooks are not being run twice. No, indeed, they should only be run once. > Though I admit I haven't tracked down the stages in initialising > jit-lock-mode. jit-lock postpones fontification to whenever the text is actually displayed, i.e. much later than initialization; it may very well never fontify any part of the text at all, if the buffer is never displayed. > So do you agree that the code should be changed so that > fontification always happens after running the mode-hook? Yes, I agree. This was the behavior in Emacs-20, and is also the behavior with jit-lock (i.e. the default behavior). I'm not sure what's the best way to get that result, tho: adding yet-another keyword to define-minor-mode is something I'd rather avoid. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Jan 25 21:13:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqEqN-00019R-Te for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58218) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqEqM-00019L-Fh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqEqK-0005xr-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:42 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:35641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqEqK-0005xd-Hv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:40 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAHy2IE9FpZaC/2dsb2JhbABDrkSBBoFyAQEFViMQCzQSFBgNJMAxiSsCAQUCBQYWBAEBAgECAYNYAQkFg0sEiD+ad4RX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,572,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="159074255" Received: from 69-165-150-130.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.165.150.130]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 25 Jan 2012 21:13:39 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9D91E66107; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:39 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: Shouldn't it be easier to find info on how to learn Emacs to recognize compiler output? Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:13:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:26:22 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:13:43 -0000 > - What is the normal formatting of compilation errors called? The one we recommend is the GNU standard (looks like "file:line:message"). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 01:05:19 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqISV-0004tK-Ag for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:05:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48009) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqISQ-0004mE-7y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:05:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqISP-0001mq-4Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:05:14 -0500 Received: from mail-lpp01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.217.169]:53733) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqISO-0001mk-QP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:05:13 -0500 Received: by lbbgg6 with SMTP id gg6so8857lbb.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:05:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=HauBiwa0XqBbEvTBLLjjweQnhOCL9m8vCPeZ7qrcxBM=; b=AbkB0p2lrTHSlwlNIgV+CAQOp6gc4qXLzqtFF0tFUfp8M0OIDpKS5zr2+sIlxGeyK3 HUVBxAo/KRWIIzP5uJMePOWuvJF3XMTlOopd+EmMV9uph16CUMCC0X40F1lzXpUhrkkQ k5Z8QEZUlo5PHH8ZyBmye1Oa+Y9IsMP8BInBA= Received: by 10.112.103.131 with SMTP id fw3mr161711lbb.78.1327557910452; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:05:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.97.11 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:04:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lennart Borgman Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:04:50 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Shouldn't it be easier to find info on how to learn Emacs to recognize compiler output? To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.217.169 Cc: Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 06:05:15 -0000 On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 03:13, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> - What is the normal formatting of compilation errors called? > > The one we recommend is the GNU standard (looks like "file:line:message"). Thanks. And if they want to give the column? From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 02:00:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqJKG-0001VF-5i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:00:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34823) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJK8-0001Uf-Ev for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:00:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJK7-0007VO-C6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:00:44 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:52181) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJK6-0007Ul-R1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:00:43 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jan 2012 07:00:40 -0000 Received: from p4FC76414.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO turtle.gmx.de) [79.199.100.20] by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 26 Jan 2012 08:00:40 +0100 X-Authenticated: #28250155 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+2Ftg815q27hd+AZ0JWnd1QQnhy4snKQ1ENQH9z9 nEPMXMYWdiXnJG Received: by turtle.gmx.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1952E3F49D; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:00:39 +0100 (CET) From: Sven Joachim To: Lennart Borgman Subject: Re: Shouldn't it be easier to find info on how to learn Emacs to recognize compiler output? References: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:00:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:04:50 +0100") Message-ID: <87k44fvtgo.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Stefan Monnier , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:00:50 -0000 On 2012-01-26 07:04 +0100, Lennart Borgman wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 03:13, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> - What is the normal formatting of compilation errors called? >> >> The one we recommend is the GNU standard (looks like "file:line:message"). > > Thanks. And if they want to give the column? They should use "file:line:column:message". Sven From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 02:28:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqJkl-0003qJ-VL for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:28:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42537) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJkj-0003pp-1T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:28:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJkh-000223-MT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:28:12 -0500 Received: from mail.uni-ulm.de ([134.60.1.11]:63938) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqJkh-00021p-5O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:28:11 -0500 Received: from bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de (bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de [134.60.10.175]) by mail.uni-ulm.de (8.14.3/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0Q7S1Et019553; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:28:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43D710F72; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:27:32 +0100 (CET) From: Reiner Steib To: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer (was: summary shows R2L) References: X-Face: mtjf/D:es1T0wHO:&CJ'ZXe"l; 3C--rw\z!{`eFwL){|]RpI+4{u25L=5C /0>KuGeTsk<~<&NE-AKV1560e!+RJeyWmSskkrJm?[vUV#66{T_m|Ae<||Ku#Mk5`y&O`n~z2; n8eP J5#2h@2eQgV@E70IY_0WlEx!"&giy{+\%h1LJox$zv@/l%ZmU4^tZA>xQpnkUBVC5.jpg#0'(+2?Rs )NAr:>3<=WxHE$ktbLysDIM5TbmHu*3 (=?utf-8?B?Itin2YTYs9mR2YTYp9mFINi5?= =?utf-8?B?2YTZitmD2YUiJ3M=?= message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:07:36 +0900") Message-ID: <87k44ej53y.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-DCC-Misty-Metrics: poseidon 1170; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.60.1.11 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Reiner Steib List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:28:14 -0000 [ Full quote below for emacs-devel ] On Thu, Jan 26 2012, =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B3=D9=91=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=85 =D8=B9=D9= =84=D9=8A=D9=83=D9=85 wrote: [ Suggestions for Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer ] > I think it worth making Gnus do it by default. WDYT? Please disuss this on emacs-devel. See also the long thread around . Bye, Reiner. [ Full quote below for emacs-devel: ] On Thu, Jan 26 2012, =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B3=D9=91=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=85 =D8=B9=D9= =84=D9=8A=D9=83=D9=85 wrote: > =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B3=D9=91=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=85 =D8=B9=D9=84=D9=8A=D9=83=D9=85= (Hello), > > You will see the summary buffer is drawn right to left if: > - You use Emacs 24. > - The subject of this article is at the beginning of the summary > buffer. > - The summary line of this article has no mark, i.e., begins with > a space. > > If you don't see it so, try setting `gnus-summary-line-format' to > the default value ("%U%R%z%I%(%[%4L: %-23,23f%]%) %s\n"). > > I found this today in a trash folder. The other summary lines > are also drawn right to left even if those are English messages. > So, I added this snippet as a workaround: > > (add-hook 'gnus-summary-mode-hook > (lambda () > (setq bidi-paragraph-direction 'left-to-right))) > > I think it worth making Gnus do it by default. WDYT? > In addition, I also tried the next one: > > (add-hook 'gnus-article-mode-hook > (lambda () > (setq bidi-paragraph-direction 'left-to-right))) > > But I couldn't see whether it is worthwhile or not, since I'm not > familiar with R2L text. --=20 ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 03:41:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqKu6-000092-1o for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34444) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqKty-00005c-LU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqKtx-0001mS-8d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:36924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqKtx-0001mO-5z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:49 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqKtw-0002NW-2z; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:41:48 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Reiner Steib In-reply-to: <87k44ej53y.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> (message from Reiner Steib on Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:27:29 +0100) Subject: Re: Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer (was: summary shows R2L) References: <87k44ej53y.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:41:56 -0000 > From: Reiner Steib > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:27:29 +0100 > Reply-To: Reiner Steib > > On Thu, Jan 26 2012, السّلام عليكم wrote: > [ Suggestions for Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer ] > > I think it worth making Gnus do it by default. WDYT? Summary buffers should definitely have left-to-right paragraph direction by default. I said it long ago, several times AFAIR. It should definitely be done before 24.1 is released. Now is a good time, IMO. > Please disuss this on emacs-devel. See also the long thread around > . That thread is about something different: it's about how to avoid a jumble caused by reordering of the _fields_ in the summary lines. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 03:52:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqL4j-0002YK-SI for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:52:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36318) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqL4h-0002YE-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:52:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqL4g-0003GN-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:52:55 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:63389) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqL4g-0003GE-Py for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:52:54 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so555354pba.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:52:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=190zwSz9oBKhe6XjLgox0bmjRgE2nIcDnbfo+EeAdmI=; b=i8eil+40tap7wDCJq51sRXYEAMt+o8TX3nJdSygM/JzM63TOCPiDBkV8heEeLvgqSw fBfTwirz98leA9utqR4pigsK2VXdZcQ5XCwELmBnKX2FLteNhUThRCHEHNfz+w1NyLJP Hu3CEkBgjlEfFzWS203DjdYw62SnBD2+9N9Ak= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.189.69 with SMTP id gg5mr3500372pbc.41.1327567973280; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:52:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: nikolai.weibull@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.136.193 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:52:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87k44fvtgo.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> References: <87k44fvtgo.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:52:53 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: cQfVWaKc5I_KYuQCF7enxpjiX3M Message-ID: Subject: Re: Shouldn't it be easier to find info on how to learn Emacs to recognize compiler output? From: Nikolai Weibull To: Sven Joachim Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Lennart Borgman , Stefan Monnier , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:52:57 -0000 On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 08:00, Sven Joachim wrote: > On 2012-01-26 07:04 +0100, Lennart Borgman wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 03:13, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> - What is the normal formatting of compilation errors called? >>> The one we recommend is the GNU standard (looks like "file:line:message"). >> Thanks. And if they want to give the column? > They should use "file:line:column:message". According to http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Errors its sourcefile:lineno: message and sourcefile:lineno:column: message or sourcefile:lineno.column: message (Note the space between the colon after lineno/column and message.) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 05:39:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqMk2-000138-RR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:39:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34507) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMjv-00012q-S7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:39:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMju-00015E-6W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:39:35 -0500 Received: from orlando.hostforweb.net ([216.246.45.90]:48977) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMju-000155-0v; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:39:34 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51527) by orlando.hostforweb.net with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMjq-0006V5-Q9; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 04:39:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:39:24 +0900 Message-ID: From: Katsumi Yamaoka To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer References: <87k44ej53y.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> Organization: Emacsen advocacy group X-Face: #kKnN,xUnmKia.'[pp`; Omh}odZK)?7wQSl"4o04=EixTF+V[""w~iNbM9ZL+.b*_CxUmFk B#Fu[*?MZZH@IkN:!"\w%I_zt>[$nm7nQosZ<3eu; B:$Q_:p!',P.c0-_Cy[dz4oIpw0ESA^D*1Lw= L&i*6&( User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (i686-pc-cygwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:6UD6szInZFQXdZjEJJFCd99lFFo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - orlando.hostforweb.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jpl.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-Received-From: 216.246.45.90 Cc: ding@gnus.org, Reiner.Steib@gmx.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:39:41 -0000 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Reiner Steib >> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:27:29 +0100 >> Reply-To: Reiner Steib >> >> On Thu, Jan 26 2012, =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B3=D9=91=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=85 =D8=B9= =D9=84=D9=8A=D9=83=D9=85 wrote: >> [ Suggestions for Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer ] >>> I think it worth making Gnus do it by default. WDYT? > Summary buffers should definitely have left-to-right paragraph > direction by default. I said it long ago, several times AFAIR. It > should definitely be done before 24.1 is released. Now is a good > time, IMO. Done in Emacs trunk and Gnus trunk. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 05:52:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqMwn-0004zu-CK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:52:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49427) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMwl-0004yC-6Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:52:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMwf-0002YX-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:52:51 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:40490) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMwf-0002YI-26 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:52:45 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqMwb-0003Gl-Tn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:52:41 +0100 Received: from c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.229.140.53]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:52:41 +0100 Received: from mindcooler by c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:52:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Eric Lilja Subject: Re: emacs-20120116-r106877 Windows Binaries Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:52:26 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <4F14F54F.9050308@gmail.com> <8762g5n5yg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-358ce555.04-73-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 In-Reply-To: <8762g5n5yg.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:52:52 -0000 On 2012-01-21 03:29, Jason Rumney wrote: > > It isn't possible to upload to the GNU ftp server if your public key is > not in the GNU keyring, so I think you must have an old version of the > keyring. > > The day when I wrote the original post (18th jan, 2012), I googled for "download gnu public keys" and selected the third hit: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5701388/where-can-i-find-the-public-key-for-gnu-emacs and on that page I used a download link I found: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-keyring.gpg And Mr Scholtes key was not in the keyring at the time, some 350+ other keys were, but not his. It was strange I thought since Mr Scholtes has been providing Windows binaries for some time now. I didn't check the past few days if his key is now present in the keyring, since I didn't see any posts on this mailing list that it was. Best regards, Eric Lilja From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 05:58:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqN2R-0007cK-KU for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:58:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33975) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqN2L-0007c8-2h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:58:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqN2F-0003GV-B3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:58:37 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:32462 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqN2F-0003GJ-0M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:58:31 -0500 Received: (qmail 73965 invoked by uid 3782); 26 Jan 2012 10:58:29 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95560EF.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.96.239]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:58:21 +0100 Received: (qmail 2764 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Jan 2012 10:58:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:58:25 +0000 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: First fontification of a buffer happens before font lock is fully initialised. Message-ID: <20120126105825.GA2735@acm.acm> References: <20120125124804.GB3638@acm.acm> <20120125182651.GA3624@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 Cc: Hannu Koivisto , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:58:42 -0000 On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 08:43:48PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > jit-lock postpones fontification to whenever the text is actually > displayed, i.e. much later than initialization; it may very well never > fontify any part of the text at all, if the buffer is never displayed. Ah, OK. > > So do you agree that the code should be changed so that > > fontification always happens after running the mode-hook? > Yes, I agree. This was the behavior in Emacs-20, and is also the > behavior with jit-lock (i.e. the default behavior). I'm not sure what's > the best way to get that result, tho: adding yet-another keyword to > define-minor-mode is something I'd rather avoid. I can understand that. How about writing `font-lock-mode' explicitly rather than using `define-minor-mode'? The explicit fontification of the whole buffer could be removed from jit-lock (?and lazy-lock) since it will be redundant, and possibly because that explicit fontification might somehow depend on something in font-lock-mode-hook. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 09:14:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqQ6B-0003Sa-4D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:14:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47589) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqQ64-0003Qk-09 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:14:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqQ5M-0007pn-T7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:14:39 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55743) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqQ5M-0007o1-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:13:56 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqQ5L-00049f-HU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:13:55 +0100 Received: from 38.98.147.133 ([38.98.147.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:13:55 +0100 Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:13:55 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Can we set-network-process-option process :keepalive t by default? Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:13:15 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 16 Message-ID: <87ipjya450.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.133 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Fu8SsZM0dFd9MR2JJr5PM+r/1Ik= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:14:45 -0000 This is the code we use currently on Gnus IMAP and NNTP connections: (when (and (fboundp 'set-network-process-option) ;; Unavailable in XEmacs. (fboundp 'process-type) ;; Emacs 22 doesn't provide it. (eq (process-type process) 'network)) ;; Use TCP-keepalive so that connections that pass through a NAT router ;; don't hang when left idle. (set-network-process-option process :keepalive t)) I think nowadays it makes sense to set that as the default for all Emacs network connections (though the user should be able to turn it off, and the OS has to allow it of course). Can we make that change after 24.1 is out? Thanks Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 10:16:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqR3v-0007ii-27 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:16:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38588) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqR3j-0007bz-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:16:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqR3f-0000sE-DY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:16:19 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:55394) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqR3V-0000rQ-ST; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:16:06 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so825891pba.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:16:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MBGPvpMusQKPL78uB2n5EMzIu23TS6rYKxK+D4T/xW8=; b=jTCS1ZK//wzHIeLMV/y5WKHpBAmw2aAy9YIpQPmP9UgzHg+IyKn8dft2FiSk2QaDX+ c4j8MxzXEkisyCiF3yXiHn2kcBO/9X/98FavIDUfHirVkacZkNM1trvrGn+mvV1LV5G9 OTdH7pxC0wUzMU/fnwWPnZcvn4yBeCsq23Kp0= Received: by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr94702pbc.111.1327590964194; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:16:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 07:15:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:15:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries (was: bug#10215: 24.0.92; Can't contact nnimap (gnutls-cli not found)) To: 10612@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:16:28 -0000 2012/1/26 Ted Zlatanov : > Christoph has been doing that, I think, so we can rely on his binaries. > > Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for > Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform? =C2= =A0We > had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be > the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core > Emacs developers). =C2=A0If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produc= e > the GnuTLS DLLs for you. Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not include the GnuTLS DLLs. Note (again) that the issue is not who builds the GnuTLS DLLs, but whether they should be included with official (or semi-official, like the snapshots) releases. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 11:43:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqSPe-0002wJ-0k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:43:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35862) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSPV-0002sn-Px for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:43:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSPL-0004KD-T1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:42:53 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSPL-0004Jt-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:42:43 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYE00L00ZPIRS00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:42:41 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYE00KG1ZR3FAD0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:42:40 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:42:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer In-reply-to: To: Katsumi Yamaoka Message-id: <838vku1kle.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87k44ej53y.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: ding@gnus.org, Reiner.Steib@gmx.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:43:00 -0000 > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:39:24 +0900 > From: Katsumi Yamaoka > Cc: Reiner.Steib@gmx.de, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Reiner Steib > >> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:27:29 +0100 > >> Reply-To: Reiner Steib > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 26 2012, =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B3=D9=91=D9=84=D8=A7=D9= =85 =D8=B9=D9=84=D9=8A=D9=83=D9=85 wrote: > >> [ Suggestions for Bidi (R2L) in Gnus summary buffer ] > >>> I think it worth making Gnus do it by default. WDYT? >=20 > > Summary buffers should definitely have left-to-right paragraph > > direction by default. I said it long ago, several times AFAIR. = It > > should definitely be done before 24.1 is released. Now is a good > > time, IMO. >=20 > Done in Emacs trunk and Gnus trunk. Thanks. Thank you. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 12:19:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqSyY-0002CD-HX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:19:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46526) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSyR-00026v-Vp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:19:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSyQ-000226-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:18:59 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:41950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqSyQ-00021E-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:18:58 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0QHIvWm000381; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:18:57 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 38E7FB4431; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:18:57 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Can we set-network-process-option process :keepalive t by default? Message-ID: References: <87ipjya450.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:18:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87ipjya450.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:13:15 -0600") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4113=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4113> : streams <723200> : uri <1054166> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:19:03 -0000 > This is the code we use currently on Gnus IMAP and NNTP connections: > (when (and (fboundp 'set-network-process-option) ;; Unavailable in XEmacs. > (fboundp 'process-type) ;; Emacs 22 doesn't provide it. > (eq (process-type process) 'network)) > ;; Use TCP-keepalive so that connections that pass through a NAT router > ;; don't hang when left idle. > (set-network-process-option process :keepalive t)) > I think nowadays it makes sense to set that as the default for all Emacs > network connections (though the user should be able to turn it off, and > the OS has to allow it of course). Can we make that change after 24.1 > is out? I think I'd rather keep the default behavior of Elisp code close to the default behavior of C code in this respect. BTW, instead of process-type, couldn't you use (eq (process-status process) 'open), so as to avoid the (fboundp 'process-type)? Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 12:44:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqTNC-0008AC-5G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:44:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqTKD-00067k-Vd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:41:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqT6X-0004fG-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:27:22 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:42179) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqT6P-0004bc-Aa; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:27:13 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1005669obb.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:27:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=odT9nxdMh4eU5wxHo6WotDgKKDAbSv/aWSZSJ9wCGBQ=; b=SR/JoQlaehbi/j81s8AureB20oNwiXGZVALkiY5ju1h8ll97F4eElPQSPhCW3a4grl 0NZoH7Mbbv8LucNeLqHJG8NAIlbfXCOAHY1eKKKOtwfujgp22p3U0UW1EZVxQMhWKzr9 Emgm8F2iTzmr2JM1Vs6evEyn5h4xH8uy6dhxU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.231.7 with SMTP id tc7mr3192325obc.29.1327598826474; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.242.41 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:27:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:27:06 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov From: Gideon Stupp To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d0447887774cb2e04b771b0c5 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:44:33 -0000 --f46d0447887774cb2e04b771b0c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Package: emacs Tags: patch Severity: wishlist This experimental patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to extend isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument. Instead of pressing C-s / C-r multiple times it is possible with this patch to enter a prefix argument which runs the command multiple times for you. If a negative argument is given for isearch-repeat-forward then isearch-repeat-backward is run and visa versa. Visual hints are added to the matched strings to help figure out what argument should be given. Please try it out. 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2012 13:36:12 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.44]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38E620E6B for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.161]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:36:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=lhBRiDJEfqkSr1PJsdifl0RcK+A=; b=rLdcUkB6znt1Ej+QwVyiHGevvJKo idKU0hLNQxef0ToZ6Ohj3Nh7fnJ3Btb/h9y7MccOqpfI8nGVU0DA47u7bKMXJIu5 si99ooT9GLMZcx3TRqdhScG1jnhZZVkDkL1YbscDbLFBLsoFOgEUgbYn3nccOJUR 30G8JNSPSq1r2KM= X-Sasl-enc: 91iPFRp0PwuEJUjhSa4PjeCFscER/nJ1ic4h+tBIPQMA 1327602965 Received: from thinkpad.tsdh.de (91-67-11-43-dynip.superkabel.de [91.67.11.43]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 891484825D6; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: Tassilo Horn To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov References: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:36:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:27:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.27 Cc: juri@jurta.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:40:00 -0000 Gideon Stupp writes: Hi Gideon, > This experimental patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to extend > isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument. I like it. I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the position where point would be if that one's selected, and I added also a bit superscript magic, which suits me better, visually. (Well, that should be customizable, of course.) But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? When I do C-s foo C-3, isearch is exited... Bye, Tassilo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 13:46:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqUL6-0004FY-9S for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:28 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=59056 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUL2-0004F3-UJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUKp-0004Cp-BI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:22 -0500 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:59410) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUKp-0004Cg-8d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:11 -0500 Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id C017320EB0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=+CVF31FFISg7zKiepPX74M2bntM=; b=PtpyDmtllauyqYLinKa5mSu3bpGF tn/yJlzf2xiaKAP4HWiNVmIfWqZbEgy4Jqhkgirs7eOXx0ozsBzfezT9gCnp/3mO ZRDMZZjGAjrlsoL4G8+vlKFuoF4T52Mg20IjgzUKoutFEa57NnxcXhLU+weN+6db NoT5XItbjzS/1UQ= X-Sasl-enc: 29Fks2M/MDA9jTaF29VxduXiX6MXN4pDfe85kCZXUkD+ 1327603570 Received: from thinkpad.tsdh.de (91-67-11-43-dynip.superkabel.de [91.67.11.43]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FD968E0124; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:46:08 -0500 (EST) From: Tassilo Horn To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov References: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:46:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> (Tassilo Horn's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:36:02 +0100") Message-ID: <8762fyfgk0.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.27 Cc: juri@jurta.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:46:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Tassilo Horn writes: >> This experimental patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to >> extend isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument. > > I like it. I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the position where > point would be if that one's selected, and I added also a bit > superscript magic, which suits me better, visually. (Well, that should > be customizable, of course.) Ups, I forgot to attach the patch. Bye, Tassilo --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=isearchnavjuri.patch === modified file 'lisp/isearch.el' --- lisp/isearch.el 2012-01-19 07:21:25 +0000 +++ lisp/isearch.el 2012-01-26 18:32:18 +0000 @@ -333,6 +333,21 @@ 'lazy-highlight-face "22.1") (defvar lazy-highlight-face 'lazy-highlight) + +(defface lazy-highlight-hint + '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light)) + (:background "paleturquoise" :bold t)) + (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark)) + (:background "paleturquoise4" :bold t)) + (((class color) (min-colors 16)) + (:background "turquoise3" :bold t)) + (((class color) (min-colors 8)) + (:background "turquoise3" :bold t)) + (t (:underline t))) + "Face for lazy highlighting hints." + :group 'lazy-highlight + :group 'basic-faces) + ;; Define isearch help map. @@ -417,10 +432,25 @@ ;; We need these explicit definitions because, in a dense keymap, ;; the binding for t does not affect characters. ;; We use a dense keymap to save space. + (while (< i ?\s) (define-key map (make-string 1 i) 'isearch-other-control-char) (setq i (1+ i))) + ;; Bring universal-argument and friends back in + (define-key map "\C-u" 'universal-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) + (define-key map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument) + ;; Single-byte printing chars extend the search string by default. (setq i ?\s) (while (< i 256) @@ -434,7 +464,20 @@ ;; default local key binding for any key not otherwise bound. (let ((meta-map (make-sparse-keymap))) (define-key map (char-to-string meta-prefix-char) meta-map) - (define-key map [escape] meta-map)) + (define-key map [escape] meta-map) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "-") 'negative-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument)) + (define-key map (vector meta-prefix-char t) 'isearch-other-meta-char) ;; Several non-printing chars change the searching behavior. @@ -528,6 +571,7 @@ ;; These are all set with setq while isearching ;; and bound locally while editing the search string. +(defvar isearch-hint-count 0) (defvar isearch-forward nil) ; Searching in the forward direction. (defvar isearch-regexp nil) ; Searching for a regexp. (defvar isearch-word nil) ; Searching for words. @@ -1340,15 +1384,30 @@ (isearch-push-state) (isearch-update)) -(defun isearch-repeat-forward () +(defun isearch-repeat-forward (arg) "Repeat incremental search forwards." - (interactive) - (isearch-repeat 'forward)) + (interactive "p") + (while (> arg 0) + (isearch-repeat 'forward) + (setq arg (1- arg)) + (setq isearch-hint-count (1+ isearch-hint-count))) + (while (< arg 0) + (isearch-repeat 'backward) + (setq arg (1+ arg)) + (setq isearch-hint-count (1+ isearch-hint-count))) + (isearch-update)) -(defun isearch-repeat-backward () +(defun isearch-repeat-backward (arg) "Repeat incremental search backwards." - (interactive) - (isearch-repeat 'backward)) + (interactive "p") + (while (> arg 0) + (isearch-repeat 'backward) + (setq arg (1- arg)) + (setq isearch-hint-count (1+ isearch-hint-count))) + (while (< arg 0) + (isearch-repeat 'forward) + (setq arg (1+ arg))) + (setq isearch-hint-count (1+ isearch-hint-count))) (defun isearch-toggle-regexp () "Toggle regexp searching on or off." @@ -2627,6 +2686,7 @@ (defvar isearch-lazy-highlight-word nil) (defvar isearch-lazy-highlight-forward nil) (defvar isearch-lazy-highlight-error nil) +(defvar isearch-lazy-highlight-hint-count nil) (defun lazy-highlight-cleanup (&optional force) "Stop lazy highlighting and remove extra highlighting from current buffer. @@ -2671,6 +2731,9 @@ isearch-lazy-highlight-window-end)) (not (eq isearch-forward isearch-lazy-highlight-forward)) + (not (eq isearch-lazy-highlight-hint-count + isearch-hint-count)) + ;; In case we are recovering from an error. (not (equal isearch-error isearch-lazy-highlight-error)))) @@ -2693,6 +2756,7 @@ isearch-lazy-highlight-regexp isearch-regexp isearch-lazy-highlight-space-regexp search-whitespace-regexp isearch-lazy-highlight-word isearch-word + isearch-lazy-highlight-hint-count isearch-hint-count isearch-lazy-highlight-forward isearch-forward) (unless (equal isearch-string "") (setq isearch-lazy-highlight-timer @@ -2739,7 +2803,8 @@ "Update highlighting of other matches for current search." (let ((max lazy-highlight-max-at-a-time) (looping t) - nomore) + nomore + (count 1)) (with-local-quit (save-selected-window (if (and (window-live-p isearch-lazy-highlight-window) @@ -2773,8 +2838,19 @@ (forward-char -1))) ;; non-zero-length match - (let ((ov (make-overlay mb me))) + (let ((ov (make-overlay mb me)) hint) (push ov isearch-lazy-highlight-overlays) + (if (not isearch-lazy-highlight-wrapped) + (progn + (setq hint (number-to-string count)) + (setq count (1+ count)) + (set-text-properties 0 (length hint) + '(face lazy-highlight-hint + display ((height 0.7) (raise 0.3))) + hint) + (if isearch-lazy-highlight-forward + (overlay-put ov 'after-string hint) + (overlay-put ov 'before-string hint)))) ;; 1000 is higher than ediff's 100+, ;; but lower than isearch main overlay's 1001 (overlay-put ov 'priority 1000) --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:00:27 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqUYd-00070V-6u for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:00:27 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52793 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUYa-0006zm-Oc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:00:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUYN-0006z1-3Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:00:19 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f71.google.com ([74.125.82.71]:56918) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUYM-0006y7-P6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:00:11 -0500 Received: by wgbdy1 with SMTP id dy1so349850wgb.6 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:00:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.105.41 with SMTP id gj9mr469907wib.0.1327604408945; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:00:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:00:08 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Tassilo Horn , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04428262328ec104b772fde5 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.71 Cc: juri@jurta.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:00:25 -0000 --f46d04428262328ec104b772fde5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes hmm. It shouldn't exit. I probably have a bug in the patch (that's the problem with experimental patches ;)). I will look at it again in (my) morning. Thanks, Gideon. On , Tassilo Horn wrote: > Gideon Stupp gideon.stupp@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Gideon, > > This experimental patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to extend > > isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument. > I like it. I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the position where > point would be if that one's selected, and I added also a bit > superscript magic, which suits me better, visually. (Well, that should > be customizable, of course.) > But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? When > I do Cs foo C-3, isearch is exited... > Bye, > Tassilo --f46d04428262328ec104b772fde5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmm. It shouldn't exit. I probably have a bug in the patch (that's = the problem with experimental patches ;)). I will look at it again in (my) = morning.

Thanks, Gideon.

On , Tassilo Horn <tassil= o@member.fsf.org> wrote:
> Gideon Stupp gideon.stupp@gmail.com&g= t; writes:
>
>
>
> Hi Gideon,
> =
>
>
> > This experimental patch implements a = suggestion by Juri Linkov to extend
>
> > isearch-repea= t-forward/backward to support a prefix argument.
>
>
>
> I like it. =A0I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the = position where
>
> point would be if that one's select= ed, and I added also a bit
>
> superscript magic, which su= its me better, visually. =A0(Well, that should
>
> be cust= omizable, of course.)
>
>
>
> But how th= e heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? =A0When
> <= br />> I do C-s foo C-3, isearch is exited...
>
>
>
> Bye,
>
> Tassilo
> --f46d04428262328ec104b772fde5-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:10:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqUiO-0004OC-Jy for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:10:32 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=51802 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUiM-0004MK-4u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:10:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUiE-0000fc-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:10:24 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f199.google.com ([209.85.212.199]:61399) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUiE-0000fN-Fw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:10:22 -0500 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so504015wib.6 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:10:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.107.164 with SMTP id hd4mr149873wib.0.1327605021308; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:10:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:10:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argum From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Tassilo Horn , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba085b27a5204b7732156 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.199 Cc: juri@jurta.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:10:31 -0000 --e89a8f3ba085b27a5204b7732156 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Oh, I just thought of something. If you try to patch isearch.el and then load-file it the new keybindings won't take place (the map is defvar'ed). I think you have to compile isearch.el to isearch.elc and then run with temacs. Hope this helps, Gideon. On , gideon.stupp@gmail.com wrote: > hmm. It shouldn't exit. I probably have a bug in the patch (that's the > problem with experimental patches ;)). I will look at it again in (my) > morning. > Thanks, Gideon. > On , Tassilo Horn tassilo@member.fsf.org> wrote: > > Gideon Stupp gideon.stupp@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > > > > Hi Gideon, > > > > > > > > > This experimental patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to > extend > > > > > isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument. > > > > > > > > I like it. I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the position where > > > > point would be if that one's selected, and I added also a bit > > > > superscript magic, which suits me better, visually. (Well, that should > > > > be customizable, of course.) > > > > > > > > But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? When > > > > I do Cs foo C-3, isearch is exited... > > > > > > > > Bye, > > > > Tassilo > > --e89a8f3ba085b27a5204b7732156 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, I just thought of something. If you try to patch isearch.el and then lo= ad-file it the new keybindings won't take place (the map is defvar'= ed). I think you have to compile isearch.el to isearch.elc and then run wit= h temacs.

Hope this helps,

Gideon.

On , gi= deon.stupp@gmail.com wrote:
> hmm. It shouldn't exit. I probabl= y have a bug in the patch (that's the problem with experimental patches= ;)). I will look at it again in (my) morning.
>
> Thanks,= Gideon.
>
> On , Tassilo Horn tassilo@member.fsf.org> = wrote:
> > Gideon Stupp gideon.stupp@gmail.com> writes:
= > >
> >
> >
> > Hi Gideon,
&= gt; >
> >
> >
> > > This experime= ntal patch implements a suggestion by Juri Linkov to extend
> > =
> > > isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix ar= gument.
> >
> >
> >
> > I li= ke it. =A0I adapted it a bit to show the hints at the position where
&= gt; >
> > point would be if that one's selected, and I a= dded also a bit
> >
> > superscript magic, which sui= ts me better, visually. =A0(Well, that should
> >
> >= ; be customizable, of course.)
> >
> >
> &g= t;
> > But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed= to work? =A0When
> >
> > I do C-s foo C-3, isearch = is exited...
> >
> >
> >
> >= Bye,
> >
> > Tassilo
> > --e89a8f3ba085b27a5204b7732156-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:11:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqUjD-0004lM-P8 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:23 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52041 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUj7-0004kg-0w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUj0-0000sG-P6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:16 -0500 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:39155) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUj0-0000rz-D5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:10 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.44]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAE020FFD for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1.nyi.mail.srv.osa ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=smtpout; bh=0/OL0LARBVLEeA4A0bkNTRa+6OM=; b=tQ6pTFn+4pH3Zfb+SJuStZutGXFw Z/LbRJALP2q787xnbKcghE2lJWrCaC4sZpr/rdWWOrnBYlQ0rgF0vtDrGmozwDu/ v+HEgttA4Hys8G8vldYZHl00WO3ezvAwR2xZFySWgQd2dKYJlg8qPMm7HLXeFNbc fNE6ZF4e8S8Hgmk= X-Sasl-enc: QBcgiidCanV5W2Q9SS5KHFkv8o4HrS60AGpzbmnlCQyO 1327605069 Received: from thinkpad.tsdh.de (91-67-11-43-dynip.superkabel.de [91.67.11.43]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 194708E00FF; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:11:07 -0500 (EST) From: Tassilo Horn To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov References: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:11:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> (Tassilo Horn's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:36:02 +0100") Message-ID: <871uqmffee.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.27 Cc: juri@jurta.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:11:22 -0000 Tassilo Horn writes: > But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? > When I do C-s foo C-3, isearch is exited... That was my fault. Of course, loading the patched isearch.el didn't make the changed isearch-mode-map active (defvar). It works fine, now. Usability-wise, C-s foo C- C-s makes only sense if that keystroke is shorter to type than C-s multiple times. So maybe the numbering should start with some offset, say, with the 5th next match? And the typing of C-s after the number is a bit inconvenient, so maybe, C-7 could jump directly to the match hinted with 7, and only for two-digit matches C-s was needed, i.e., C-u 1 2 C-s to jump to the 12th match? Bye, Tassilo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:28:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqUzp-0002Eh-P9 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:28:33 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=54709 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUzm-0002AH-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:28:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUzh-0003um-Di for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:28:26 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:60293) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqUzh-0003ui-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:28:25 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1164918obb.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:28:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=t/qXnR9UhlM6SWOG1s97U6iZdRGQ051hKTvULli7okk=; b=xlM01bqIAas6ZjbNL+RVsAmbn+HF+mbVdBfAMibGnaockMisrxTMi6aYnGilR4BynH ZFibBn9XdRz9Q6aaAiOuXirw1r+hQGsifwZv7IZK+eWikw8juTQ73+KMfJlVbo0Xxucj ECpNc8HTSgN1c1/xwBbDEAFe5jxxsnwavZBNY= Received: by 10.182.74.102 with SMTP id s6mr3565868obv.46.1327606103092; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:28:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.50.37 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:28:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <871uqmffee.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> References: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871uqmffee.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=E9my_Compostella?= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:28:02 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10614: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov To: Tassilo Horn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044471a32d2e2004b77362c9 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: 10614@debbugs.gnu.org, Gideon Stupp , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:28:31 -0000 --f46d044471a32d2e2004b77362c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2012/1/26 Tassilo Horn > Tassilo Horn writes: > > > But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work? > > When I do C-s foo C-3, isearch is exited... > > That was my fault. Of course, loading the patched isearch.el didn't > make the changed isearch-mode-map active (defvar). It works fine, now. > > Usability-wise, C-s foo C- C-s makes only sense if that > keystroke is shorter to type than C-s multiple times. So maybe the > numbering should start with some offset, say, with the 5th next match? > > And the typing of C-s after the number is a bit inconvenient, so maybe, > C-7 could jump directly to the match hinted with 7, and only for > two-digit matches C-s was needed, i.e., C-u 1 2 C-s to jump to the 12th > match? > > I just played play with it too and I really like it. Here my notes: - I do agree with Tassilo, C-7 should directly jump to match hinted 7. - When more than lazy-highlight-max-at-a-time are visible in the window, the prefix number is restarted from 1 on the next match hinted. It's confusing and I think it should not appear on these items. - A defcustom variable should be added to enable/disable the match hinted prefix number. Anyway, it's an very interesting improvement. J=E9r=E9my --f46d044471a32d2e2004b77362c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2012/1/26 Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org>
Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> But how the heck is the usage of the prefix arg supposed to work?
> When I do C-s foo C-3, isearch is exited...

That was my fault. =A0Of course, loading the patched isearch.el didn&= #39;t
make the changed isearch-mode-map active (defvar). =A0It works fine, now.
Usability-wise, C-s foo C-<number> C-s makes only sense if that
keystroke is shorter to type than C-s multiple times. =A0So maybe the
numbering should start with some offset, say, with the 5th next match?

And the typing of C-s after the number is a bit inconvenient, so maybe,
C-7 could jump directly to the match hinted with 7, and only for
two-digit matches C-s was needed, i.e., C-u 1 2 C-s to jump to the 12th
match?


I just played play with it too and I r= eally like it. Here my notes:
- I do agree with Tassilo, C-7 shou= ld directly jump to match hinted 7.
- When more than=A0lazy-highl= ight-max-at-a-time are visible in the window,
=A0=A0the prefix number is restarted from 1 on the next match hinted. = It's confusing
=A0=A0and I think it should not appear on thes= e items.
- A defcustom variable should be added to enable/disable= the match hinted prefix
=A0=A0number.

Anyway, it's an very=A0inte= resting=A0improvement.

J=E9r=E9my

--f46d044471a32d2e2004b77362c9-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:32:26 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqV3a-00033Z-8i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:32:26 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58255 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV3X-00032r-UF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:32:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV3S-0004ZB-Pn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:32:19 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.10] (port=36229 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV3S-0004YL-N9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:32:18 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV3L-0001E3-NP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:32:11 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: gideon.stupp@gmail.com Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argum References: X-Spook: wire transfer FBI corporate security Bellcore North Korea X-Ran: ] (gideon stupp's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:10:21 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:32:25 -0000 Hi - please could you either: 1) start cc'ing 10614@debbugs.gnu.org instead of bug-gnu-emacs 2) stop having this discussion on two mailing lists because otherwise you will end up creating multiple bug reports every time you change the subject header. Personally I think very few things need to be discussed on multiple Emacs mailing lists at the same time, and this is not one of them. So I suggest you pick one list and stick with it. Note that if you want to cc someone on a new bug report, the right way is to use an x-debbugs-cc header when you make the initial report (see debbugs docs). Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 14:36:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqV7w-0005LG-Sk for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:36:56 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=55983 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV7u-0005H6-0z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:36:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV7i-0005H9-7W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:36:48 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:43848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqV7h-0005Gz-VW; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:36:42 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYF00J007P01O00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:36:39 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYF00IOE7T327G0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:36:39 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:36:11 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries In-reply-to: <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org Message-id: <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:36:55 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:32:12 -0600 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > JB> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not > JB> include the GnuTLS DLLs. > > Right, and GnuTLS 3.0.9 is not the latest. I meant he should be > building against the latest GnuTLS, not include it. You are being unreasonable. 3.0.9 was released just a month ago. A new GnuTLS release happens every 2 weeks, how can you expect each one of them be ported to Windows at that pace? Do you think it's just the "./configure && make" dance we are used to on GNU/Linux? It took me a full week of uphill battle to do that with 3.0.9, what with all the prerequisite packages I needed to port first. The previous port before that was of v2.10, from a year and a half ago. How come it suddenly is so urgent to have the latest and the greatest? In any case, feel free to join the battle and help out, instead of coming up with such unreasonable requirements. > I was gonna bring that up next :) What does "semi-official" mean? Can > I work with Christoph to include the GnuTLS DLLs or not? If not, can we > add a notice to his binaries announcements to tell users where to find > prebuilt GnuTLS DLLs? You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of GnuTLS 3.0.9 here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 15:08:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqVcK-0008Iy-E6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:08:20 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50994 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVcG-0008Hb-C0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:08:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVc7-0000lE-R9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:08:10 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44682) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVc7-0000jq-IO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:08:07 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVbs-0000ul-Mm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:07:52 +0100 Received: from 38.98.147.133 ([38.98.147.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:07:52 +0100 Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:07:52 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:07:05 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.133 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:x4idJYgfbcAeYMY20OQbKsN3NGI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:08:18 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:36:11 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Ted Zlatanov >> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:32:12 -0600 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> JB> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not JB> include the GnuTLS DLLs. >> >> Right, and GnuTLS 3.0.9 is not the latest. I meant he should be >> building against the latest GnuTLS, not include it. EZ> You are being unreasonable. 3.0.9 was released just a month ago. A EZ> new GnuTLS release happens every 2 weeks, how can you expect each one EZ> of them be ported to Windows at that pace? Do you think it's just the EZ> "./configure && make" dance we are used to on GNU/Linux? It took me a EZ> full week of uphill battle to do that with 3.0.9, what with all the EZ> prerequisite packages I needed to port first. The previous port EZ> before that was of v2.10, from a year and a half ago. How come it EZ> suddenly is so urgent to have the latest and the greatest? EZ> In any case, feel free to join the battle and help out, instead of EZ> coming up with such unreasonable requirements. My point was not that 3.1.2 is needed right now, but that Christoph should be building against the latest GnuTLS in general. Sorry if that was not clear. I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs, so I don't think I was unreasonable. If the BuildBot can compile them automatically, it should be easy to use the latest. If not... I'll work with you and the GnuTLS developers to make it so. >> I was gonna bring that up next :) What does "semi-official" mean? Can >> I work with Christoph to include the GnuTLS DLLs or not? If not, can we >> add a notice to his binaries announcements to tell users where to find >> prebuilt GnuTLS DLLs? EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here: EZ> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've done. I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they came with the binary. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 15:16:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqVkJ-00040q-IF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:16:35 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=57279 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVkC-0003xp-Bd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:16:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVjx-0001qo-Cj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:16:22 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:39867) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqVjw-0001qb-Fy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:16:13 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1224843obb.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=PM7k/iBN/6Gt+JH7q50VXlzrG4OQLaRObEeu4T2kVRg=; b=XkUoN4pLIXbU8TYQSoAmLuQZau+3lQFlgK8qdbQWveS101KE0eJK44colLE+c2gCwy xrEF5k1BdWJkITod9J7dPvcwWHQT8iMjfAGBKIR8EFnfqaJWhIrz4bllTUm2deYyNB+7 GLIDMzMcZuGqCZoW0k+A9Btu/0c1hHuQDGV78= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.75.65 with SMTP id a1mr3733750obw.32.1327608971762; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Sender: aurelien.aptel@gmail.com Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:16:11 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: noDdZWafCuKX1_QVPTBRfmnIW7M Message-ID: Subject: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=14dae93996e1299b2f04b7740d3b X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:16:30 -0000 --14dae93996e1299b2f04b7740d3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi all, I implemented a new face attribute "underwave". It does exactly what this thread[1] asked for. It only works on X11 currently. I've basically followed whatever "overline" was doing across all the source tree so it should be ok. I don't have a windows/mac machine to port this feature but it should be easy to do: just port the changes made to xterm.c to other *term.c. I've attached the diff and a screenshot of the splash screen with the default and link face changed to use underwaving. Note that it looks good on both X11 core fonts and Xft fonts. I would love to see this merged in emacs so -- if everything is alright -- what's the next step? PS: if you receive this message twice you can ignore the other one, sorry. 1: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/147873/focus=147905 --14dae93996e1299b2f04b7740d3b Content-Type: image/png; name="sample.png" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sample.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_gxw85tmd0 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABAAAAAJYCAIAAABzcgN0AAAAA3NCSVQICAjb4U/gAAAgAElEQVR4 XuydB3wU1RPHL40kpNB7k14FEbCA9I703qSH3gQRlKJ0AQvNP9KbAgIiSJMmoChYQFBAkd4hBQjp /T/JC49l97293btL5XefsOzNmzcz7/v27ma2OlWrVs2SMq8CjQemjGE9q3cPLNNrRhsIgAAIgAAI gAAIgAAIPN8EXGn4Dx8+NAIhR44cZpUvXb5ixLKjdEqVLGE8Qkc5hR0QAAEQAAEQAAEQMEXAVE5l yjKUQcAqAdr8EgsA1WvgwOQ998uWWdmbzjWZBav6ak94DwIgAAIgAAIgAAIg8IQAZVZWsymljvFM zKxlFpFtvbTzmToxG6Gh1dFKhPErhTRHRnpRF66mnFYm1E60ipJKQdmqDEanl9A766suAHSsaHFo B6PVgQQEQAAEQAAEQAAEQMAqAZaDyfI81l2lYzATM2hZFSFPH3Uit8GywZh1nPImVYQyyyqk2sxb KyEX+r1kvpRhKy3wdZVZ4TC1VFUjlfWy6p0rOKtMCBEI3ch86Cj/s/kj9sd0+Dqt8F4qHZIbkeg4 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ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0QLhGY2014754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:43:16 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0QLhE2J009884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:43:15 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0QLhDJg001741; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:43:14 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:43:13 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Tassilo Horn'" , "'Gideon Stupp'" References: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Subject: RE: bug#10614: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] ExtendingIsearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argumentfollowing suggesion by Juri Linkov Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:43:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87lioufh0t.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Thread-Index: AczcWlPro172RqOZTOW6lRCWnDcKcQAGRbSQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F21C8F5.0036,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: 10614@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:45:55 -0000 Please do not send stuff to both emacs-devel and the bug list. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 16:46:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqX9I-0004tO-0w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:46:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44109) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqX9F-0004sA-64 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:46:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqX3R-0004eo-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:40:26 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:43596) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqX3Q-0004ee-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:40:25 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYF00B00DDTW500@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:40:23 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYF00B4UDJARO30@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:40:23 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:39:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries In-reply-to: <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83ty3iywh3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:46:26 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:07:05 -0600 > Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org > > My point was not that 3.1.2 is needed right now, but that Christoph > should be building against the latest GnuTLS in general. The latest GnuTLS that's available to Christoph is 3.0.9. You cannot possibly expect him to build against the latest GnuTLS that was not yet been built on Windows. So I'm not sure what exactly do you mean. > I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers? And a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that? What if it fails one of the tests in the test suite? > EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of > EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here: > > EZ> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've > done. I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be > nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they > came with the binary. The URLs for optional DLLs are in the file README.W32 that is part of the binary distribution. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 17:30:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqXpS-00047q-0g for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:30:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43213) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqXpP-00047i-6B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:30:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqXpO-0002lr-5a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:29:59 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:61484) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqXpO-0002lk-0Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:29:58 -0500 Received: by wibhj13 with SMTP id hj13so1078044wib.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IHRz+FzJrPE9t6BUj02GsdelC82BzAmh9JEnFae/3II=; b=dP76DC6jw3nZRmkVw+xDiQGUwprWNH8kVjb4cnR2DWQKpTq819o97P10MJ+8PxpcTu plfvM+dlzFGN5cHUwKJ9YnG+1Gw0sf93A63is+0pfZnAeQYoYeo3SWLOyumiHcTfaI4G J5xm9yYp8r81J541jy7FjOIXxU6Tk6Ig+EGrk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.82.41 with SMTP id f9mr6955252wiy.7.1327616996472; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.171.65 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:29:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: AUCTeX Mode From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Fenn?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:30:00 -0000 Hello, I just would like to ask why AUCTeX mode still isn't a part of Emacs? Why has the olden TeX mode still not been replaced by AUCTeX? Thanks in advance. Regards, J=FCrgen (using AUCTeX since I started using LaTeX some ten years ago in NTEmacs...) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 17:53:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqYCW-0008Lt-Ns for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:53:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40943) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqYCU-0008GP-AB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:53:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqYCT-0005nz-LU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:53:50 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:65152) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqYCR-0005nY-CW; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:53:47 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so1196387pba.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:53:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9rCVwuhr2yyWhVKaIxH03IRdbQ4Yq+bvPhPXLgdS/qI=; b=vluIa0HEkN6huzLKjYbKqtqeUukYNsjyVW3O+7oQX8ldzzx1i1S1Bt5gK+CH3TMw0V DXx/VMS2j7autv8avA1H5pJYca/VZqW0dqQwy2J1tf7VE8lczhiiRESnOWZfihXNZ8Ur g0CDtu5cYjQ63CNzGhKXlqOeOK8o+QKh9fNDo= Received: by 10.68.224.6 with SMTP id qy6mr8913411pbc.60.1327618426169; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:53:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:53:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:53:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries To: Emacs developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:53:51 -0000 2012/1/26 Ted Zlatanov : > That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've > done. =C2=A0I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be > nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs It's in README.W32, but the URL could also be mentioned in the release announcements. > and even nicer if they came with the binary. I still think we should not do that. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 20:00:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqaBI-0003AS-Cm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:00:44 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=36907 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqTYD-0001yG-Fz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:56:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqTY6-0003xW-GF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:55:53 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:45552) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqTY6-0003xC-7E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:55:50 -0500 Received: by ggnk5 with SMTP id k5so476891ggn.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:55:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=baIFkRJIsszat+1xePTEoGhuAhMkATlHtkrmTljwZVM=; b=doOBfjsTXRt8q0jyoK7+uU/bcMaXRyH0CXf4JxmkpMT7Pdh3XbGlpl2VKc4bGBqmO9 tbQOQjLfXfaKwPQQwXqN+LRBA+hMbmhbzx4P0/NXsRmaKImkLfGO9WVCiLZ/yyWVf6iA 7zse8xnUJH8XmAeY+H8NiXWZJLwCg82R/i+qE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.0.106 with SMTP id 10mr3183107obd.72.1327600548142; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:55:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:55:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d043c077e135d9c04b772178c X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:00:42 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:56:02 -0000 --f46d043c077e135d9c04b772178c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi all, I implemented a new face attribute "underwave". It does exactly what this thread[1] asked for. It only works on X11 currently. I don't have a windows/mac machine to port this feature but it should be easy to do: just port the changes made to xterm.c to other *term.c. I've basically followed whatever "overline" was doing so it should be ok. I've attached the diff and a screenshot of the splash screen with the default and link face changed to use underwaving. Note that it looks good on both X11 core fonts and Xft fonts. I would love to this this merged in emacs so -- if everything's alright -- what's the next step? 1: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/147873/focus=147905 --f46d043c077e135d9c04b772178c Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=US-ASCII; name="underwave.diff" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="underwave.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_gxw330yf0 ZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL2RvYy9saXNwcmVmL2Rpc3BsYXkudGV4aSBiL2RvYy9saXNwcmVmL2Rpc3Bs YXkudGV4aQppbmRleCAzODFlYWY2Li4xYWE4NzEyIDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9kb2MvbGlzcHJlZi9k aXNwbGF5LnRleGkKKysrIGIvZG9jL2xpc3ByZWYvZGlzcGxheS50ZXhpCkBAIC0yMDg5LDYgKzIw ODksMTAgQEAgdmFsdWUgQGNvZGV7bmlsfSBtZWFucyBkbyBub3QgdW5kZXJsaW5lLgogV2hldGhl ciBvciBub3QgY2hhcmFjdGVycyBzaG91bGQgYmUgb3ZlcmxpbmVkLCBhbmQgaW4gd2hhdCBjb2xv ci4KIFRoZSB2YWx1ZSBpcyB1c2VkIGxpa2UgdGhhdCBvZiBAY29kZXs6dW5kZXJsaW5lfS4KIAor QGl0ZW0gOnVuZGVyd2F2ZQorV2hldGhlciBvciBub3QgY2hhcmFjdGVycyBzaG91bGQgYmUgdW5k ZXJ3YXZlZCwgYW5kIGluIHdoYXQgY29sb3IuCitUaGUgdmFsdWUgaXMgdXNlZCBsaWtlIHRoYXQg 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AAIIIIBAdgTYAGTnXFAJAggggAACCCCAAAIFF2ADUHBiBkAAAQQQQAABBBBAIDsCbACycy6oBAEE EEAAAQQQQACBgguwASg4MQMggAACCCCAAAIIIJAdgZZPARozelR2CqISBBBAAAEEEEAAAQQQKJDA svkl/x9a+e1l5aSIPQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --f46d043c077e135d9c04b772178c-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 20:52:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqazq-00031a-Ji for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:52:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51788) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqazm-0002uE-9K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:52:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqazl-0006jj-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:52:54 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:53801 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqazk-0006jf-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:52:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47435451C762; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:51:45 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Organization: JURTA References: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:44:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:27:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:52:55 -0000 > Please try it out. Thanks. A few comments below: > + ;; Bring universal-argument and friends back in > + (define-key map "\C-u" 'universal-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "-") 'negative-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument)) Instead of adding these keybindings, you can just set `isearch-allow-scroll' to t. Also there are plans to add a better variable `isearch-enable-prefix' in 24.2, you can see more information at this link - http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/143829 > -(defun isearch-repeat-forward () > +(defun isearch-repeat-forward (arg) > -(defun isearch-repeat-backward () > +(defun isearch-repeat-backward (arg) Please use (&optional arg) for backward-compatibility. > + (setq hint (number-to-string count)) > + (setq count (1+ count)) > + (set-text-properties 0 (length hint) '(face lazy-highlight-hint) hint) > + (overlay-put ov 'before-string hint))) A suggestion by Tassilo to use superscripts looks good too, but then these hints look like references to footnotes :-) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 22:00:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqc2z-0007wO-Sa for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:00:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43867) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqc2x-0007wI-Nx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:00:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqc2w-0006Ja-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:00:15 -0500 Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:33953) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqc2w-0006Cp-BH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:00:14 -0500 Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8D97063E; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:59:57 +0900 (JST) Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B630D1A2770; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:59:57 +0900 (JST) From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen?= Fenn Subject: AUCTeX Mode In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" e6b5c49f9e13 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:59:57 +0900 Message-ID: <87ipjx3l5e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:00:16 -0000 J=C3=BCrgen Fenn writes: > Hello, >=20 > I just would like to ask why AUCTeX mode still isn't a part of Emacs? Because it's not wholly-owned by the FSF, and despite heroic efforts by one David Kastrup inter alia, AFAIK it's unlikely to achieve that status any time soon. For further information, you should ask on AUCTeX channels. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 23:01:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqd0c-0005sN-RP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:01:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41839) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd0a-0005sH-U4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:01:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd0Z-0003ts-VY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:01:52 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:59214) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd0Z-0003to-PE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:01:51 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd0X-0005P1-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:01:49 +0100 Received: from 124.72.163.37 ([124.72.163.37]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:01:49 +0100 Received: from sdl.web by 124.72.163.37 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:01:49 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Leo Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:01:33 +0800 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 124.72.163.37 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAG1BMVEUAAAA9Cgm3Hx1WWFWA gn+WmJWsrqv4+vcCAwCRl2MkAAAAAXRSTlMAQObYZgAAAAFiS0dEAIgFHUgAAAAJcEhZcwAAAYoA AAGKATOXMFgAAAAHdElNRQfXAQwDNR+ZJmElAAABIklEQVQoz22SPW+DQAyGWUq65qasd9PNUSX4 AZHK2C1rJy5jpDS4IwRVup9dn7GNafpKIPPgzztXFSujqq1eM2n8h22oMkvxI/i9C97kRfMRUN55 dS3BrsAwBXUtMLAO4lryh8kTjOxKpQNniNxAgZOEe4bZwsDTFhKdqZRLNII4OQNHhEuq/RMkm6Cj TnnEA/fk0BorcYn5qA3oaeAxbaBOLrX+9G48NZ2Fzc2tzDM8Q+tMypEOqYHh8mAWaaK3U/cDMOT5 aMZMABgPXc7zPMs1A8DXO756GFJ/4fMEq47hTsAdn5avoxZ4ywl0c2w4Flu2Ybeyb3S+EqxX2DYA H8veJGEDTnHnrXvRaPyt+2kSfK6rfBZ2tUtfP/mR+pR6sX8BUZ/cDV7tvkoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:QpeBxonWWac9s1WWk/+SOQzziCE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 04:01:53 -0000 On 2012-01-27 01:55 +0800, Aurlien Aptel wrote: > I implemented a new face attribute "underwave". It does exactly what > this thread[1] asked for. > It only works on X11 currently. I don't have a windows/mac machine to > port this feature but it should be easy to do: just port the changes > made to xterm.c to other *term.c. I've basically followed whatever > "overline" was doing so it should be ok. Thank you for taking the trouble to implement it. Looks nice. > I've attached the diff and a screenshot of the splash screen with the > default and link face changed to use underwaving. Note that it looks > good on both X11 core fonts and Xft fonts. > > I would love to this this merged in emacs so -- if everything's > alright -- what's the next step? Probably submit the patch to the bug tracker M-x report-emacs-bug. Get someone to review it. Thanks again. Leo From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jan 26 23:05:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqd4P-0006Tx-GM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33980) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd4N-0006SZ-2w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd4M-0004T3-0H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:47 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:35378) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqd4L-0004Sz-Sc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:45 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAGkhIk9FpZaC/2dsb2JhbABCrlKBBoFyAQEEAVYjEAs0EhQYDSSID7gUiT4PAgQCBwIFAgIBBA8HCQECAQKEHgYFg10EiD+aeIRX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,578,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="159380287" Received: from 69-165-150-130.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.150.130]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 26 Jan 2012 23:05:44 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id B30E45923E; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode Message-ID: References: <87ipjx3l5e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:05:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87ipjx3l5e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:59:57 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen?= Fenn X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 04:05:47 -0000 >> I just would like to ask why AUCTeX mode still isn't a part of Emacs? > Because it's not wholly-owned by the FSF, and despite heroic efforts > by one David Kastrup inter alia, AFAIK it's unlikely to achieve that > status any time soon. Actually, things have changed over time: nowadays it pretty much is, hence its place in ELPA. We could move it from ELPA to Emacs without any legal trouble. Stefan "Using `plain' latex-mode very happily, especially liking the C-c C-c command" From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 01:17:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqf8A-0007UV-Vv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:17:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqf87-0007SA-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:17:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqf85-0000e6-Oj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:17:47 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:36781) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqf85-0000e2-FQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:17:45 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so1723799obb.0 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:17:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=c96A7lMVB4Ni8DoLL5wWzHMFEHiGrOhdePpZCy4etro=; b=LX8AqenJ/i5oDWSZ/TeMBxNbFGEUV0+gvQo5LSP0on8lz0rMLRA7U/KytFFS/dk1Am 3ZTkCplUN+ZwnToemwLSwmaHpEjBh0iTKWPKQDdLGU/uB6MlOk5up7hJwe337vjPa+KO VgpGmFQznjTwhOSv358ZCEJZWzORNh/g6/oUo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.41.5 with SMTP id b5mr5057895obl.79.1327645064635; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.242.41 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:17:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:17:44 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov From: Gideon Stupp To: Juri Linkov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0445179b77260a04b77c7446 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:17:49 -0000 --f46d0445179b77260a04b77c7446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thank you for your comments Juri. Do you have a thought on how to implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for? Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I implemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with the opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects. For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 isearch-forward does not go back one matched string but rather just switches to isearch-backward and so on. I did implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that would require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly (lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that point you can't know the negative argument for the current match). On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Juri Linkov wrote: > > Please try it out. > > Thanks. A few comments below: > > > + ;; Bring universal-argument and friends back in > > + (define-key map "\C-u" 'universal-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument) > > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "-") 'negative-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) > > + (define-key meta-map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument)) > > Instead of adding these keybindings, you can just set > `isearch-allow-scroll' to t. > > Also there are plans to add a better variable `isearch-enable-prefix' > in 24.2, you can see more information at this link - > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/143829 > > > -(defun isearch-repeat-forward () > > +(defun isearch-repeat-forward (arg) > > > -(defun isearch-repeat-backward () > > +(defun isearch-repeat-backward (arg) > > Please use (&optional arg) for backward-compatibility. > > > + (setq hint (number-to-string count)) > > + (setq count (1+ count)) > > + (set-text-properties 0 (length hint) > '(face lazy-highlight-hint) hint) > > + (overlay-put ov 'before-string hint))) > > A suggestion by Tassilo to use superscripts looks good too, > but then these hints look like references to footnotes :-) > --f46d0445179b77260a04b77c7446 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your comments Juri.=A0 Do you have a thought= on how to implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked f= or? Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I im= plemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with the o= pposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects. For example th= e search message changes,=A0 C-- C-1 isearch-forward does not go back one m= atched string but rather just switches to isearch-backward and so on.=A0 I = did=A0 implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that would= require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly (lazy-highligh= t loop wraps around back to the first line and at that point you can't = know the negative argument for the current match).


On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Juri Li= nkov <juri@jurta.org= > wrote:
> Please try it out.

Thanks. =A0A few comments below:

> + =A0 =A0;; Bring universal-argument and friends back in
> + =A0 =A0(define-key map "\C-u" 'universal-argument)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argument)=
> + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argument) > + =A0 =A0(define-key map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argument)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "-") 'negative-argume= nt)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C--") 'negative-argu= ment)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-0") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-1") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-2") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-3") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-4") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-5") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-6") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-7") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-8") 'digit-argumen= t)
> + =A0 =A0(define-key meta-map (kbd "C-9") 'digit-argumen= t))

Instead of adding these keybindings, you can just set
`isearch-allow-scroll' to t.

Also there are plans to add a better variable `isearch-enable-prefix' in 24.2, you can see more information at this link -
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/143829

> -(defun isearch-repeat-forward ()
> +(defun isearch-repeat-forward (arg)

> -(defun isearch-repeat-backward ()
> +(defun isearch-repeat-backward (arg)

Please use (&optional arg) for backward-compatibility.

> + =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (setq hint (= number-to-string count))
> + =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (setq count = (1+ count))
> + =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (set-text-pr= operties 0 (length hint) '(face lazy-highlight-hint) hint)
> + =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (overlay-put= ov 'before-string hint)))

A suggestion by Tassilo to use superscripts looks good too,
but then these hints look like references to footnotes :-)

--f46d0445179b77260a04b77c7446-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 01:41:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqfUm-0006HN-BM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:41:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqeKK-0006KB-Ep for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:26:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqeKJ-0003rW-CX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:26:20 -0500 Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:43918) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqeKC-0003qh-Vs; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:26:13 -0500 Received: by wgbds1 with SMTP id ds1so1097910wgb.30 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=sA3dPh0Q8SH1oqFIPwsOy02mkbAK48San1P6nXV5/X4=; b=xt1VUWu57WTznY4putWdlH5a3ccHbhZCZ3L5nB1krPraC3eqFJQaSZ1PWNO6GXTVc3 JKSUHxd9VDLk/q/VLvRwVwL7QtrKDD3tHESy/IaXxmrbeogacDKk4ry7ZS8OgN1JHnyN H/x++5Lnk9KNQs2p0XT4yznjrB+TaeX1s6wwA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.92.71 with SMTP id ck7mr10620457wib.3.1327641970699; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.93.131 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:10 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: find-dired does not work on emacs24 + win + mingw From: sthfrnth To: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c80700d6e4804b77bbc25 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.49 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:41:10 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:26:21 -0000 --f46d043c80700d6e4804b77bbc25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, My env. is Window 7 64bit + MinGW. I find that find-dired of emacs24 does not work on this env. (I got emacs24 from http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/**emacs/windows/ ) The output of find-dired is like below: * c:/emacs/lisp/:* * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls* * 227084 7 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 12792 Jan 19:38 find-dired.el* * 956351 6 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan 05:35 find-dired.el.ok* * 227085 5 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 8669 Jan 19:38 find-dired.elc* * 3731074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 7530 Jan 13:35 find-dired.elc.ok* * * * find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:09:23* When enter pressed on file line, it prompted "Unrecognized line! Check directory-listing-before-filename-regexp". I replaced find-dired.el with emacs23's version, it works ok. The output is like below: * c:/emacs/lisp/:* * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -exec ls -ld "{}" ";"* * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan 11 05:35 find-dired.el* * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 12792 Jan 16 19:38 find-dired.el.bak* * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 7530 Jan 22 13:35 find-dired.elc* * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 8669 Jan 16 19:38 find-dired.elc.bak* * * * find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:17:44* I think the output of "*find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls*" is not matching some parsing functions in find-dired.el. I tried to modify it but did not succeed. Can anyone fix this? --f46d043c80700d6e4804b77bbc25 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

My env. is Window 7 64bit + MinGW.
<= div>I find that find-dired of emacs24 does not work on this env. (I got ema= cs24 from=A0http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/)

The output of find-dired is like below:

<= /div>
=A0 c:/emacs/lisp/:
=A0 find . "(&q= uot; -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls
=A0 = 227084 =A0 =A07 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A012792 Jan = =A019:38 find-dired.el
=A0 956351 =A0 =A06 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 = =A011411 Jan =A005:35 find-dired.el.ok
=A0 227085 =A0 =A05= -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A0 8669 Jan =A019:38 find-di= red.elc
=A0 3731074 =A0 =A04 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Adm= inistrators =A0 =A0 7530 Jan =A013:35 find-dired.elc.ok
=A0=A0
=A0 find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:09:23

When enter pressed on file line, it prompt= ed "Unrecognized line! =A0Check directory-listing-before-filename-rege= xp".

I replaced find-dired.el with emacs23's version, it= works ok. The output is like below:

=A0 c= :/emacs/lisp/:
=A0 find . "(" -name "*find-= dired*" ")" -exec ls -ld "{}" ";"
=A0 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A011411 Jan 11 05= :35 find-dired.el
=A0 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administra= tors =A0 =A012792 Jan 16 19:38 find-dired.el.bak
=A0 -rw-r= --r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A0 7530 Jan 22 13:35 find-dired.el= c
=A0 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A0 8669 Jan 16 19= :38 find-dired.elc.bak
=A0=A0
=A0 find fi= nished at Fri Jan 27 13:17:44

I think th= e output of "find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" &q= uot;)" -ls" is not matching some parsing functions in find-di= red.el.
I tried to modify it but did not=A0succeed.

C= an anyone fix this?


--f46d043c80700d6e4804b77bbc25-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 02:15:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqg1b-0003hR-1A for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:15:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55803) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqg1Y-0003g7-ML for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:15:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqg1X-00071x-8V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:15:04 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:57212) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqg1W-00071o-Sj; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:15:03 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYG001003T77200@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:15:01 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYG000KS44YJNK0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:14:59 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:12:55 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: find-dired does not work on emacs24 + win + mingw In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: sthfrnth Message-id: <83r4ylzki0.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:15:05 -0000 > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:10 +0800 > From: sthfrnth > > My env. is Window 7 64bit + MinGW. > I find that find-dired of emacs24 does not work on this env. (I got emacs24 > from http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/**emacs/windows/ > ) And where did you get the port of GNU Find? > The output of find-dired is like below: > > * c:/emacs/lisp/:* > * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls* > * 227084 7 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 12792 Jan 19:38 find-dired.el* > * 956351 6 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan 05:35 find-dired.el.ok* > * 227085 5 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 8669 Jan 19:38 find-dired.elc* > * 3731074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 7530 Jan 13:35 find-dired.elc.ok* > * * > * find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:09:23* This output is wrong: it doesn't show the date after the month, only the hour. "Jan 13:35" etc. is not a valid date-time format. With the port of GNU Findutils I have, I don't see that problem. > When enter pressed on file line, it prompted "Unrecognized line! Check > directory-listing-before-filename-regexp". With my find.exe, this error doesn't happen. I'm quite sure you see the error message because of the invalid date format. > I replaced find-dired.el with emacs23's version, it works ok. The output is > like below: > > * c:/emacs/lisp/:* > * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -exec ls -ld "{}" ";"* > * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan 11 05:35 find-dired.el* As you see, Emacs 23 instructed find.exe to invoke ls, instead of using the built-in -ls option. Your ls.exe produces valid date format, so the command works. > I think the output of "*find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls*" is not > matching some parsing functions in find-dired.el. > I tried to modify it but did not succeed. > > Can anyone fix this? See above: you need to "fix" your Findutils. E.g., try this port: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/findutils-4.2.30-w32-bin.zip/download From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 03:34:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqhGq-0004d7-LB for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:34:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43162) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqhGn-0004bL-Sc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:34:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqhGj-0008FV-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:34:53 -0500 Received: from smtp206.alice.it ([82.57.200.102]:34385) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqhGj-0008FI-Mj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 03:34:49 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (79.56.182.94) by smtp206.alice.it (8.6.023.02) id 4F1836AD00EE0E63 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:29:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:29:00 +0100 From: Angelo Graziosi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.102 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:34:54 -0000 Stefan Monnier wrote: > We could move it from ELPA to Emacs without > any legal trouble. Do it soon, then... :-) Thanks, Angelo. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 05:26:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqj0P-0008MO-4H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:26:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47728) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqj0H-0008Ll-To for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:26:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqj0C-0005fJ-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:25:57 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:38973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqj0C-0005eu-7g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:25:52 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F35E1C0C174; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:25:48 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: kkfKmmiYI45UrFDrR/L5roMNy5EY2xiSrdIsD2P+sr4= Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-140-204.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.140.204]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 243051C00187; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:25:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8ADBCCA29A; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:25:47 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: =?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute References: X-Yow: I'm wet! I'm wild! Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:25:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel"'s message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:55:47 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:26:03 -0000 Aurélien Aptel writes: > I've attached the diff and a screenshot of the splash screen with the > default and link face changed to use underwaving. Note that it looks > good on both X11 core fonts and Xft fonts. It doesn't yet look good on variable width fonts. The underwave really needs to be drawn independent of the characters. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 07:31:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqkxs-0006qz-Lu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51325) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqkxp-0006qP-Iy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqkxk-0004Sd-QI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:33 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:51792 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqkxk-0004SV-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955A1451C7FC; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 04:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Organization: JURTA References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:07:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:17:44 +0200") Message-ID: <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:31:34 -0000 > Thank you for your comments Juri. Do you have a thought on how to > implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for? Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pretty unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. But if you want to do fancy stuff with hint display then you could add a hook to `isearch-lazy-highlight-update' and implement fancy features in a separate package whose functionality is added by the hook. > Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I > implemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with the > opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects. > For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 isearch-forward does > not go back one matched string but rather just switches to > isearch-backward and so on. Then you need to take into account this situation and to add 1 to the counter when isearch-forward switches to isearch-backward with C-- C-1. > I did implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that > would require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly > (lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that > point you can't know the negative argument for the current match). There are other problems with negative arguments: sometimes backward regexp search finds more matches than forward regexp search. For instance, trying to search a regexp like "a+" forward on a string like "aaa" finds all occurrences of "aaa" as one match, but backward regexp search matches every "a" individually. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 08:02:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqlS1-0007Vs-A5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:02:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59031) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlRs-0007Uo-U8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:02:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlRn-0000Dw-6G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:02:36 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:46719) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlRm-0000Dh-P4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:02:31 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so2156519obb.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:02:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=omHqh7DFv01SIezm3nPYMHxkAss861BaUuPxYFU2bmA=; b=G8K6E214RTIGJXri+UfEU6Q93SJD69lr85JtLUyYL35BnccP4yhEP4zcURB2STDHpe 2RRc9IF8570rqgKFtKEvaSUW6akDDZJcV9rxI9goQ6r8dogyhCF/b46laOIFswhLIj87 3TksBtApYQKBi5UDhFMs3C1ZHdPGynKGWaZYI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.74.97 with SMTP id s1mr6346698obv.42.1327669350015; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:02:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:02:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: Andreas Schwab Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d04447ff3fca1ff04b7821b2c X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:02:42 -0000 --f46d04447ff3fca1ff04b7821b2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Andreas Schwab wr= ote: > Aur=C3=A9lien Aptel writes: > >> I've attached the diff and a screenshot of the splash screen with the >> default and link face changed to use underwaving. Note that it looks >> good on both X11 core fonts and Xft fonts. > > It doesn't yet look good on variable width fonts. =C2=A0The underwave rea= lly > needs to be drawn independent of the characters. I've tested every font available on my system and it looks good. I've attached a screenshot using bitstream vera. Could you post a font name and a file that doesn't look good? --f46d04447ff3fca1ff04b7821b2c Content-Type: image/png; name="variable-width.png" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="variable-width.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_gxx86voe0 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABAAAAAJYCAIAAABzcgN0AAAAA3NCSVQICAjb4U/gAAAgAElEQVR4 XuydB1wUxxfH6VUUUESwJRYUSzQiGjX2XmLvWFGwi4rGji1qNGpsiQr23hV774ka/7bYYu+gFOkd jv87Btf1dm9v7+j6289ls/f2zXtvvrOHb3Zmd/RdXFz0smZzaOqZNYalrAae9JU6jXMgAAIgAAIg AAIgAAIg8HUTMKLqh4WFyYFgY2OjrfKTp8/kWM4snTKlS8mPMLOcwg4IgAAIgAAIgAAIaEVAq5xK K8tQBgGNBOjyU3YAhJunp6evr6xb6aTJisvUF/qCBARAAARAAARAAARAgAjIScBEdUSFfKQaFVS8 cwkeMyKR5mlrmRlk9iXM6kBDTszqdKRrISwllIhewJwaq6l0KX4MwniEEo4kh1FFR8U7P0KRDoBK cKL10ehSohROgQAIgAAIgAAIgAAIqBBg2Zu6PI8pi+pozNxES0l756fmEvZ1sEx+peso/8JQCUxd zCruhL0O0QrySwktCyXCsPkW2LGcUhwfleJC+8IW5EuE3vlnDYSFhVzUuZSvySw82Pkr+/C/0jEJ ORcqOuwsv5SoRF2EkIMACIAACIAACIBA7ifApWuUXInmo1QFUR1+nidaTdFSKpoSOhL2JUpx9oU6 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mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:05:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49212) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlUG-00087r-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:05:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlUA-0000jV-M2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:05:04 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:40691) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlUA-0000iQ-Gz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:04:58 -0500 Received: from 93-41-188-50.ip82.fastwebnet.it ([93.41.188.50] helo=rusty) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlTq-00035T-N9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:04:38 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Possible GnuTLS-related hard hang Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:04:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87ehul9tzv.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RqlTq-00035T-N9 X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1328274280.18632@R4ASrtG9QD4jEsKPpqY98Q X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:05:09 -0000 My laptop went into sleep mode, and when it came back, Emacs hung hard. It may have changed its IP address or something. strace showed the following: Process 12143 attached with 3 threads - interrupt to quit [pid 12143] sendto(10, "\340\204s\374\204\22\231\26M;?\307\220=^\206T\371Q\374o\324\246i\31\256\31$\314\315\367\362"..., 136, 0, NULL, 0 [pid 12145] restart_syscall(<... resuming interrupted call ...> [pid 12144] restart_syscall(<... resuming interrupted call ...> [pid 12143] <... sendto resumed> ) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) [pid 12143] sendto(10, "\340\204s\374\204\22\231\26M;?\307\220=^\206T\371Q\374o\324\246i\31\256\31$\314\315\367\362"..., 136, 0, NULL, 0) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) [pid 12143] sendto(10, "\340\204s\374\204\22\231\26M;?\307\220=^\206T\371Q\374o\324\246i\31\256\31$\314\315\367\362"..., 136, 0, NULL, 0) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) [pid 12143] sendto(10, "\340\204s\374\204\22\231\26M;?\307\220=^\206T\371Q\374o\324\246i\31\256\31$\314\315\367\362"..., 136, 0, NULL, 0) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) larsi@rusty:~/pgnus$ ls -l /proc/12143/fd/10 lrwx------ 1 larsi larsi 64 2012-01-27 13:14 /proc/12143/fd/10 -> socket:[586673] larsi@rusty:~/pgnus$ lsof | grep 586673 emacs 12143 larsi 10u IPv4 586673 0t0 TCP 10.0.1.2:50099->dough.gmane.org:nntp (ESTABLISHED) This is a STARTTLS connection, so I'm guessing that the sendto up there is from GnuTLS. Assuming that my guess is correct, does anybody know whether there's some option we can set to make GnuTLS less, er, willing to infloop while trying to send data? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no * Sent from my Rome From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 08:35:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqlxY-0000jJ-6I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:35:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39286) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlxV-0000gG-4K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:35:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlxP-0005Hj-F8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:35:17 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57686) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlxP-0005HX-9s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:35:11 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlxM-00032K-Tu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:35:09 +0100 Received: from 88-97-43-165.dsl.zen.co.uk ([88.97.43.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:35:08 +0100 Received: from draxil by 88-97-43-165.dsl.zen.co.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:35:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Joe Higton Subject: Changing the default perl mode Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:30:13 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 21 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 88.97.43.165 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/535.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/16.0.912.32 Safari/535.7) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:35:18 -0000 Hi, As an emacs evangelist in the Perl community I like to give people advise on how to get started using emacs for Perl development. Unfortunately step 1 is to tell them that whilst the standard emacs perl-mode isn't very good, it can be easily be swapped for the vastly superior cperl-mode via a quick modification to their .emacs file... Getting them start hacking around in their configuration files isn't always the best start for people who are trying emacs for the first time. After a recent debate on the Perl subreddit I thought I'd come and at least ask the question: What are the chances of changing the default emacs mode for Perl to cperl-mode? I realise that changing such things from underneath users is probably something which you don't undertake lightly, but cperl-mode seems to be mature and also the established favourite with developers, so I'd say there is a strong case for this. Thanks, Joe Higton. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 09:06:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqmRl-0000mA-7r for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:06:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60846) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqmRc-0000RI-9y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:06:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqmRV-0001J2-Mq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:06:23 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:54438) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqmRV-0001If-I0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:06:17 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6704D18000CC; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:06:15 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: Od2yr5UeSjZl+u70S8wP+q7uf5DEAV4GwRKoSr/U8dE= Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-140-204.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.140.204]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C21A61C000AF; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:06:15 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7BDFFCA29A; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:06:15 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: =?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute References: X-Yow: SHHHH!! I hear SIX TATTOOED TRUCK-DRIVERS tossing ENGINE BLOCKS into empty OIL DRUMS.. Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:06:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel"'s message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:02:29 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:06:31 -0000 Aur=C3=A9lien Aptel writes: > Could you post a font name and a file that doesn't look good? Just try C-h h and put an underwave over it. Andreas. --=20 Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint =3D 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED= 5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 09:55:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqnD0-0000nS-D5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:55:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34793) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnCs-0000nJ-Ne for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:55:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnCn-0000N5-68 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:55:14 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:47393) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnCn-0000Mw-2y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:55:09 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so2305373obb.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:55:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Kee3Ealp9tHc332kybHF3NYCry3BZ/f+G8qwq18GxzU=; b=VFtTjgkjoFlEIRYg6aQxvwl6MQoTDl7NXRj7EM/ucBMD2hBWVVb9RY+EELZ7TVoDh4 8KLq+7MzxBws6a840hB3WY/JQYhxrl2EnaWjto4fR/ESC27X+R7EUA74K02gYSo552NE OkuaizhqHQDob+hv/XI6qDnsGhtOo2afT6KdU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.75.65 with SMTP id a1mr6726885obw.32.1327676108447; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:55:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:55:08 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: Andreas Schwab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:55:20 -0000 I think you are nitpicking. It looks good enough. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:00:54 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqnIM-0002jm-As for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:00:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48744) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnIG-0002UK-HQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:00:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnIA-00014g-KC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:00:48 -0500 Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:53473) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnIA-00014Y-8R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:00:42 -0500 Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RqnI8-00015I-Qs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:00:40 +0100 Received: from 38.98.147.133 ([38.98.147.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:00:40 +0100 Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:00:40 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:59:53 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 38 Message-ID: <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ty3iywh3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.133 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wQqv37YaHrM+BvU+9uvgHstVa/k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:00:52 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:39:36 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs EZ> How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform EZ> that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers? And EZ> a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that? What if it fails EZ> one of the tests in the test suite? Someone has to do the work. I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBot so I don't have to do it manually every time. I will obviously make it run the tests and if it fails, it will not deliver the DLLs. Do you have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the builds or you know volunteers who want to do it)? I'm certainly not looking for more work for myself, but it seems no one else wants to automate this. The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due to the lack of binary builds for that platform. I think things will improve as up-to-date DLLs become available. EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here: >> EZ> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ >> >> That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've >> done. I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be >> nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they >> came with the binary. EZ> The URLs for optional DLLs are in the file README.W32 that is part of EZ> the binary distribution. I'm asking *Christoph* if he could add that URL to the announcement for the W32 binaries. I think it would be a courtesy to the users. I know where to find the URL, but many users won't. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:27:12 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqnho-0001H5-O6 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:27:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48303) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnhm-0001Ed-K6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:27:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnhh-0004k7-2I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:27:10 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:42908) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnhg-0004jl-Rx; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:27:05 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYG00D00QROKJ00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:27:02 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYG00DU9QX2DT40@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:27:02 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:24:59 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: find-dired does not work on emacs24 + win + mingw In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: sthfrnth Message-id: <83boppyxpw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83r4ylzki0.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:27:11 -0000 > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:04:53 +0800 > From: sthfrnth > Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > I tried the port you suggested. It works, but not quite convenient. It can > not run in this way: "find . -name *foo*". What do you mean "can not run"? You need to quote the *foo* part, but otherwise it works for me. If you quote it, what do you see? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:31:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqnmJ-0002J3-AY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:31:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42429) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnm9-0002Ia-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:31:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnm0-0005L0-Dh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:31:41 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:45392) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqnm0-0005Kq-7e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:31:32 -0500 Received: by dake40 with SMTP id e40so1641645dak.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GZTTUG/KSJJg9lf0dbnB8RkaReB3uYzPQYt5w5N07F8=; b=JX49BGKP3+hxlvrb+/4USDtf7kIJnhOmekB9z3A+WmiAh6UHaeECsv2CT9l1cknxAR uh62U5i5l/rnp4sbxnk3FKT4+PRdy11o3UwnoFbKoZi3mBliBIEU080f7x3nJSQaPCjs 99FVleKownvkOTLm7PN86i/hx7VNp5t1hL04Q= Received: by 10.68.226.135 with SMTP id rs7mr15598043pbc.9.1327678290212; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:31:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:30:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ty3iywh3.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:30:50 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:31:50 -0000 2012/1/27 Ted Zlatanov : > Someone has to do the work.=C2=A0I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBo= t > so I don't have to do it manually every time. =C2=A0I will obviously make= it > run the tests and if it fails, it will not deliver the DLLs. =C2=A0Do you > have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the builds or > you know volunteers who want to do it)? =C2=A0I'm certainly not looking f= or > more work for myself, but it seems no one else wants to automate this. "Someone has to do the work" and "be[ing] in charge of the builds" sort of implies that there's that weird *obligation* to provide the binaries. If there *is* in fact any obligation, it is certainly unrelated to Emacs. You seem to think that those who oppose distributing the binaries do so because of the burden of building them. At least in my case, the opposition is philosophical/political, and utterly unrelated with who wil bear the work of producing binaries. > The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due > to the lack of binary builds for that platform. I think things will > improve as up-to-date DLLs become available. If you can set a bot to build the DLLs, the GnuTLS project surely could, too. And it would be *their* binaries. You can't get more official than that. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:47:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqo1j-0007p2-39 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:47:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34247) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo1g-0007oX-Ff for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:47:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo1e-0007Uv-Ov for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:47:44 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:46849) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo1e-0007Um-Gx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:47:42 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYG00700RUBM900@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:47:40 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYG007HMRVELO20@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:47:39 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:45:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries In-reply-to: <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83aa59ywrj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ty3iywh3.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:47:45 -0000 > From: Ted Zlatanov > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:59:53 -0600 > > On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:39:36 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > EZ> How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform > EZ> that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers? And > EZ> a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that? What if it fails > EZ> one of the tests in the test suite? > > Someone has to do the work. I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBot > so I don't have to do it manually every time. The build itself is not where most of the efforts need to be invested. It's the careful examination of any compiler and linker warnings and test suite results that takes most of the time. That, and the need to refresh the packages that are prerequisites (at least 4 are required), each one of which has its own share of quirks and problems. > I will obviously make it run the tests and if it fails, it will not > deliver the DLLs. Then I think you will never deliver. E.g., my perfectly good build failed 3 times in the test suite, due to problems in the test suite itself. I would expect at least one test to fail with each new release. > Do you have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the > builds or you know volunteers who want to do it)? I don't know what it means to be "in charge". I did the port of 3.0.9, and I can refresh it from time to time, as my time permits. I cannot make any promises, and I certainly cannot produce a fresh port every 2 weeks. If some grave problem gets detected in the last port, and someone reports that a new version fixes that, I could try doing a quick port of that. If that's good enough, this part is covered; if not, someone else will have to do it. > I'm certainly not looking for more work for myself, but it seems no > one else wants to automate this. As I said, automation is not the issue (how hard is it to type the 3 commands, including "make install-strip", needed to produce a new set of binaries?). But feel free to set it up, maybe I'm wrong and the problem is not as complicated as I think it is. > The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due > to the lack of binary builds for that platform. I think things will > improve as up-to-date DLLs become available. Well, they are available now, but I see no change, at least not judging by the traffic on the mailing list. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:50:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqo4p-0000Kg-S1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46723) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo4l-0000Ka-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo4g-00082O-NV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:55 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:6844) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo4g-00082K-JR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAG3GIk9FpZaC/2dsb2JhbABErlCBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiA+4J4k1DwIEAgcCBQICAQQPBwkDAQKEHgYFg10EiD+ab4RX X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,580,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="159478211" Received: from 69-165-150-130.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.150.130]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 27 Jan 2012 10:50:20 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C97C758E6D; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:19 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien?= Aptel Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:50:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Aur=E9lien?= Aptel"'s message of "Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:16:11 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:50:59 -0000 > I would love to see this merged in Emacs so -- if everything is > alright -- what's the next step? The feature sounds good, I'll let others judge the implementation quality, but I have one issue with the "user interface": do we really want to let faces specify underline and underwave separately? Maybe another approach is to include it as an additional value for underline (which can currently be either a boolean or a color name, so we'd have to extend the set of value so as to be able to specify shape and color separately). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 10:53:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqo7b-0001hU-Cw for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47215) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo7V-0001fC-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo7P-0008Lz-RJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:45 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:60438) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqo7P-0008Ll-Lf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:39 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B971C0C140; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:53:37 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: /uN5CcHpq06lqgjPkm8LBt8RT4TKnYcAJ+D0++EGt+U= Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-140-204.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.140.204]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D43F51C00153; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:53:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B8C9CA29A; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:53:37 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: =?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute References: X-Yow: Yow! Now we can become alcoholics! Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:53:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien?= Aptel"'s message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:55:08 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:53:49 -0000 The wave is broken in many places. The phase should always be computed relative to the left margin. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 12:05:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqpEw-0004ii-BJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:05:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41545) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpEt-0004ic-Hx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:05:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpEo-0002sv-Oh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:05:27 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41959) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpEo-0002sp-Jw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:05:22 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0RH5Jdu017872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:05:20 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0RH5JBU012708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:05:19 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0RH5IfW016421; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:05:18 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.238) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:05:18 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" , "'Gideon Stupp'" References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward tosupport a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:05:15 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Thread-Index: Aczc758DIhijKfUVSkqWbb/JsB/S1AAJdj8w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4F22D950.00D3,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:05:28 -0000 > Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pretty > unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. Not really following this thread, so I don't have an opinion on the proposed change (not even sure what it is). I'd just point out that the use of a prefix arg for the count does change the current UI, where the prefix arg has a different meaning. (Not a big deal, IMO.) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 12:08:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqpHc-0005ZA-Kl for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:08:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42162) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpHV-0005YP-VT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:08:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpHV-0003IB-1g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:08:09 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:36559) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqpHU-0003Hu-SY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:08:09 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0RH85EE029726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:08:06 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0RH84YR017703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:08:05 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0RH84Hd018539; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:08:04 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.238) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:08:04 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Aur=E9lien_Aptel'?=" References: Subject: RE: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:08:00 -0800 Message-ID: <037B3467A9FE4EC9B681DF3B1171A539@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczdC3ocv2xmJP5oTyqvAiUsPw206QACo79A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F22D9F6.0134,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:08:14 -0000 > The feature sounds good, I'll let others judge the implementation > quality, but I have one issue with the "user interface": do we really > want to let faces specify underline and underwave separately? No. > Maybe another approach is to include it as an additional value > for underline (which can currently be either a boolean or a > color name, so we'd have to extend the set of value so as to be > able to specify shape and color separately). +1 (And please implement it on other platforms as well.) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 12:50:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqpwe-00074n-PX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:50:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49273) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlUQ-0008IN-BE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:05:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlUK-0000p5-83 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:05:14 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:38251) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqlU7-0000is-3g; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:04:55 -0500 Received: by wera13 with SMTP id a13so1503976wer.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:04:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/RwiXyfpxGxBG6HpxyIcf4gvniWW/g9M93IGKNGRWsw=; b=XOzwu9gITF8mvrZ8VwlayNBEr53c4aDbEYENVz9dwyHgRfGHQAJT+cSHMCxtS8C1dh DKi+npeNQwJLikdbVKninURLkWSgk1agttOImPn/z/ERvl/a+KGqddioMcqqdTexlyMf JbWzrHP4xcTU96DmcxZt7QngxfDbgLlgcPDq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.106.202 with SMTP id gw10mr14411709wib.3.1327669493789; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.93.131 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:04:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83r4ylzki0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83r4ylzki0.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:04:53 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: find-dired does not work on emacs24 + win + mingw From: sthfrnth To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f234bfb8e728204b78224ff X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:50:39 -0500 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:05:20 -0000 --e89a8f234bfb8e728204b78224ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Eli, You are right. It is because the invalid date format in the output of my find with -ls option. My find comes from MinGW msys 1.0. I tried the port you suggested. It works, but not quite convenient. It can not run in this way: "find . -name *foo*". The find port in this package works better for me: http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/ Thank you very much. On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:10 +0800 > > From: sthfrnth > > > > My env. is Window 7 64bit + MinGW. > > I find that find-dired of emacs24 does not work on this env. (I got > emacs24 > > from http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/**emacs/windows/< > http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/> > > ) > > And where did you get the port of GNU Find? > > > The output of find-dired is like below: > > > > * c:/emacs/lisp/:* > > * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls* > > * 227084 7 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 12792 Jan > 19:38 find-dired.el* > > * 956351 6 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan > 05:35 find-dired.el.ok* > > * 227085 5 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 8669 Jan > 19:38 find-dired.elc* > > * 3731074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 7530 Jan > 13:35 find-dired.elc.ok* > > * * > > * find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:09:23* > > This output is wrong: it doesn't show the date after the month, only > the hour. "Jan 13:35" etc. is not a valid date-time format. > > With the port of GNU Findutils I have, I don't see that problem. > > > When enter pressed on file line, it prompted "Unrecognized line! Check > > directory-listing-before-filename-regexp". > > With my find.exe, this error doesn't happen. I'm quite sure you see > the error message because of the invalid date format. > > > I replaced find-dired.el with emacs23's version, it works ok. The output > is > > like below: > > > > * c:/emacs/lisp/:* > > * find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -exec ls -ld "{}" ";"* > > * -rw-r--r-- 1 sthfrnth Administrators 11411 Jan 11 05:35 > find-dired.el* > > As you see, Emacs 23 instructed find.exe to invoke ls, instead of > using the built-in -ls option. Your ls.exe produces valid date > format, so the command works. > > > I think the output of "*find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")" -ls*" is not > > matching some parsing functions in find-dired.el. > > I tried to modify it but did not succeed. > > > > Can anyone fix this? > > See above: you need to "fix" your Findutils. E.g., try this port: > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/findutils-4.2.30-w32-bin.zip/download > --e89a8f234bfb8e728204b78224ff Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eli,

You are right. It is because the invalid date fo= rmat in the output of my find with -ls option. My find comes from MinGW msy= s 1.0.

I tried the port you=A0suggested. It works,= but not quite=A0convenient. It can not run in this way: "find . -name= *foo*".

The find port in this package works better for me:=A0http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/=

Thank you very much.


On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:12 PM, = Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gn= u.org> wrote:
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:26:10 +0800
> From: sthfrnth <sthfrnth@gmai= l.com>
>
> My env. is Window 7 64bit + MinGW.
> I find that find-dired of emacs24 does not work on this env. (I got em= acs24
> from http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/**emacs/windows/<http://alpha.gnu.o= rg/gnu/emacs/windows/>
> )

And where did you get the port of GNU Find?

> The output of find-dired is like below:
>
> * =A0c:/emacs/lisp/:*
> * =A0find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")"= -ls*
> * =A0227084 =A0 =A07 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A01= 2792 Jan =A019:38 find-dired.el*
> * =A0956351 =A0 =A06 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A01= 1411 Jan =A005:35 find-dired.el.ok*
> * =A0227085 =A0 =A05 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A0 = 8669 Jan =A019:38 find-dired.elc*
> * =A03731074 =A0 =A04 -rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A0= 7530 Jan =A013:35 find-dired.elc.ok*
> * =A0*
> * =A0find finished at Fri Jan 27 13:09:23*

This output is wrong: it doesn't show the date after the month, only the hour. =A0"Jan =A013:35" etc. is not a valid date-time format.=

With the port of GNU Findutils I have, I don't see that problem.

> When enter pressed on file line, it prompted "Unrecognized line! = =A0Check
> directory-listing-before-filename-regexp".

With my find.exe, this error doesn't happen. =A0I'm quite sur= e you see
the error message because of the invalid date format.

> I replaced find-dired.el with emacs23's version, it works ok. The = output is
> like below:
>
> * =A0c:/emacs/lisp/:*
> * =A0find . "(" -name "*find-dired*" ")"= -exec ls -ld "{}" ";"*
> * =A0-rw-r--r-- =A0 1 sthfrnth Administrators =A0 =A011411 Jan 11 05:3= 5 find-dired.el*

As you see, Emacs 23 instructed find.exe to invoke ls, instead of
using the built-in -ls option. =A0Your ls.exe produces valid date
format, so the command works.

> I think the output of "*find . "(" -name "*find-di= red*" ")" -ls*" is not
> matching some parsing functions in find-dired.el. > I tried to modify it but did not succeed.
>
> Can anyone fix this?

See above: you need to "fix" your Findutils. =A0E.g., try t= his port:

=A0http://sourceforge.net/projec= ts/ezwinports/files/findutils-4.2.30-w32-bin.zip/download

--e89a8f234bfb8e728204b78224ff-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 14:01:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rqr3R-00052R-6k for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:01:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51547) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqr3N-00051Z-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:01:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqr3M-0002qF-IA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:01:41 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:38408) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqr3M-0002q6-BP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:01:40 -0500 Received: from 93-41-188-50.ip82.fastwebnet.it ([93.41.188.50] helo=rusty) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rqr3D-0008Ij-R9; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:01:32 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Elias Pipping Subject: Re: [PATCH] browse-url-mailto In-Reply-To: <8739bnyw20.fsf@lavabit.com> (Elias Pipping's message of "Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:31:03 +0100") Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:00:26 +0100 Message-ID: <87mx9955th.fsf@gnus.org> References: <8739bnyw20.fsf@lavabit.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1Rqr3D-0008Ij-R9 X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1328295692.26722@KVM2QWEe7UU5ovVdVOI8BQ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: bugs@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: bugs@gnus.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:01:43 -0000 Elias Pipping writes: > clicking a mailto link in an html mail rendered by shr did not work for > me. The reason appeared to be that the function browse-url-mailto that > shr.el uses and autoloads does not exist. Instead, the function > browse-url-mail was probably meant(*). Thanks; applied. > (*) The naming is quite confusing: The variable > browse-url-mailto-function generalises the function > browse-url-mail. Maybe one of the two should be renamed. Yeah, that's a less than optimal naming. Emacs-devel people -- would it make sense to change `browse-url-mailto-function' to `browse-url-mail-function'? The variable was introduced (by, ahem, me) about a year ago, so it's within the pretest period... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no * Sent from my Rome From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 27 21:48:32 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RqyLA-0002in-Nc for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:48:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37794) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqyL4-0002iZ-I1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:48:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqyKy-0003NB-GK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:48:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:49171) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqyKy-0003N6-Dg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:48:20 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-168.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.168]:38583 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqyKw-0003Ng-7q; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:48:18 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: bugs@gnus.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] browse-url-mailto References: <8739bnyw20.fsf@lavabit.com> <87mx9955th.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:48:09 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87mx9955th.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:00:26 +0100") Message-ID: <8739b0o846.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: Elias Pipping , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:48:31 -0000 Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >> (*) The naming is quite confusing: The variable >> browse-url-mailto-function generalises the function >> browse-url-mail. Maybe one of the two should be renamed. > > Yeah, that's a less than optimal naming. Emacs-devel people -- would it > make sense to change `browse-url-mailto-function' to > `browse-url-mail-function'? The variable was introduced (by, ahem, me) > about a year ago, so it's within the pretest period... The variable browse-url-mailto-function is used to respond to mailto: urls. Its value happens to be browse-url-mail, but I don't think it is quite correct to say that this variable "generalises" browse-url-mail. I think the present naming is fine. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 01:12:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rr1Wh-0000vu-1G for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:12:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43310) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1WZ-0000qg-LH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:12:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1WU-0004Jm-Jb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:12:31 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:38814) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1WI-0004IG-8e; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:12:14 -0500 Received: by wera13 with SMTP id a13so2253256wer.0 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:12:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=nFFXUj482VjSx17qfebQ0qg2M6mIhZNirPwcVW99gKQ=; b=D4jcq4v8cxitlfCXZuqU2GIBTWJffAkMkU8Sg6rvZQne9mw+i/ZN3lWTXF6ksHNoap RNCUmdS/RodU6fZ2ebfLMgVCxzVpwvv7XjLHyCiTH95nlYIoN6q7k0nauKDb1RquvSgQ gwJ83r02Nr1H64B1g0Vk/G3YgIG8Z4ZBEA3U0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.132.148 with SMTP id o20mr4133342wei.33.1327731132399; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.93.131 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:12:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83boppyxpw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83r4ylzki0.fsf@gnu.org> <83boppyxpw.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:12:12 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: find-dired does not work on emacs24 + win + mingw From: sthfrnth To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dee8f28100ad04b7907e47 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 06:12:35 -0000 --0016e6dee8f28100ad04b7907e47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The "find.exe" in this package http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/findutils-4.2.30-w32-bin.zip/download produces: * * *C:\emacs\lisp>find . -name *find** *find: paths must precede expression* *Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [path...] [expression]* * * *C:\emacs\lisp>find . -name "*find*"* *find: paths must precede expression* *Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [path...] [expression]* whether or not name quoted. The "find.exe" in this package http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/ produces: C:\emacs\lisp>find . -name *find* .\cedet\semantic\db-find.el .\cedet\semantic\db-find.elc .\cedet\semantic\find.el .\cedet\semantic\find.elc .\cedet\srecode\find.el ... C:\emacs\lisp>find . -name "*find*" .\cedet\semantic\db-find.el .\cedet\semantic\db-find.elc .\cedet\semantic\find.el .\cedet\semantic\find.elc .\cedet\srecode\find.el ... I don't know why. I think the second "find.exe" is more powerful in my env.. On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:04:53 +0800 > > From: sthfrnth > > Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > I tried the port you suggested. It works, but not quite convenient. It > can > > not run in this way: "find . -name *foo*". > > What do you mean "can not run"? You need to quote the *foo* part, but > otherwise it works for me. If you quote it, what do you see? > --0016e6dee8f28100ad04b7907e47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
produces:

C:\emacs\lisp>fi= nd . -name *find*
find: paths must precede expression<= /div>
Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [path...] [expression]

C:\emacs\lisp>find . -name "*find*&qu= ot;
find: paths must precede expression
U= sage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [path...] [expression]

whether or not name quoted.

The "f= ind.exe" in this package
produces:

C:\emacs\lisp>find . = -name *find*
.\cedet\semantic\db-find.el
.\cedet\semant= ic\db-find.elc
.\cedet\semantic\find.el
.\cedet\semanti= c\find.elc
.\cedet\srecode\find.el
...
C:\emacs\li= sp>find . -name "*find*"
.\cedet\semantic\db-find.el=
.\cedet\semantic\db-find.elc
.\cedet\semantic\find.el<= /div>
.\cedet\semantic\find.elc
.\cedet\srecode\find.el
...

I don't know why.
I think = the second "find.exe" is more powerful in my env..


On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:24= PM, Eli Zaretskii <el= iz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:04:53 +0800
> From: sthfrnth <sthfrnth@gmai= l.com>
> Cc: help-emacs-windows@g= nu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org<= br>
>
> I tried the port you suggested. It works, but not quite convenient. It= can
> not run in this way: "find . -name *foo*".

What do you mean "can not run"? =A0You need to quote the *f= oo* part, but
otherwise it works for me. =A0If you quote it, what do you see?

--0016e6dee8f28100ad04b7907e47-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 01:40:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rr1y1-0003ea-TK for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:40:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33718) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1xy-0003eR-Kq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:40:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1xx-00086S-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:40:50 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:55362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr1xx-00086O-Cp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:40:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595D6A60063; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Z6ixJ1qaUYw; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C4E2A60034; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F239871.90405@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:49 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111229 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Higton Subject: Re: Changing the default perl mode References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 131.179.128.62 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 06:40:52 -0000 On 01/27/2012 05:30 AM, Joe Higton wrote: > What are the chances of changing the default > emacs mode for Perl to cperl-mode? If that's the established favorite, then I'd say the chances should be fairly good. I suggest filing a bug report (you can use M-x report-emacs-bug), preferably with a patch; you can then track its status at . Emacs is in feature-freeze right now, in preparation for Emacs 24, so any change wouldn't happen right away. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 05:38:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rr5fV-0003Cj-Ef for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:38:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36622) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr5fS-0003Ad-6g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:37:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr5fP-00082I-Qg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:37:58 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54272) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr5fP-000827-KH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:37:55 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYI001007TNX200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:17 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYI002TF8648I00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:17 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:35:14 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Character FOO In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Kenichi Handa Message-id: <83sjj0xggt.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:37:59 -0000 > From: Kenichi Handa > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:48:09 +0900 > > In article , Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > In "emacs -Q" try this: > > M-: (put-text-property 149 154 'display "FOO") RET > > > Then move point to buffer position 149 (under F from "FOO"), and type > > "C-u C-x =". The popped up buffer shows in its first line that the > > character at point is "FOO" (while the echo area says it's `e'). > > > Bug? feature? > > It's a feature, but it has a bad effect in the above case. > > C-u C-x = (describe-char) tries to display the character at position in > *Help* buffer as the same way as in the original buffer by > adding the same text properties. > > (setq item-list > `(("character" > ,(format "%s (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" > (apply 'propertize char-description > (text-properties-at pos)) > char char char)) > > Changing that part to something like this: > > (setq item-list > `(("character" > ,(format "%s (displayed as %s) (%d, #o%o, #x%x)" > char-description > (apply 'propertize char-description > (text-properties-at pos)) > char char char)) > > may be an improvement. Thanks, I installed this change. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 07:31:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rr7RA-0004MD-4R for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:31:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7R8-0004KD-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:31:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7R6-0005WK-3F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:31:18 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f199.google.com ([209.85.212.199]:57348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7R5-0005WA-PK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:31:16 -0500 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so1296571wib.6 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:31:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.84.1 with SMTP id u1mr1302132wiy.2.1327753874603; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:31:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:31:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Juri Linkov , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444023a0b825404b795ca18 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.199 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:31:19 -0000 --f46d0444023a0b825404b795ca18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes So it seems that the support for negative arguments will be best effort anyway. Ok, I will make sure the counting is done right. Also I believe that when C-- C-1 isearch-forward is pressed the user expects to stay in isearch-forward and not switch to isearch-backward so I will add another call to isearch-forward just to change the direction. Not pretty but should do the job. Thanks, gideon. On , Juri Linkov wrote: > > Thank you for your comments Juri. Do you have a thought on how to > > implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for? > Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pretty > unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. But if you want > to do fancy stuff with hint display then you could add a hook to > `isearch-lazy-highlight-update' and implement fancy features in a separate > package whose functionality is added by the hook. > > Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I > > implemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with > the > > opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects. > > For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 isearch-forward does > > not go back one matched string but rather just switches to > > isearch-backward and so on. > Then you need to take into account this situation and to add 1 to the > counter when isearch-forward switches to isearch-backward with C-- C-1. > > I did implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that > > would require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly > > (lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that > > point you can't know the negative argument for the current match). > There are other problems with negative arguments: sometimes backward > regexp search finds more matches than forward regexp search. > For instance, trying to search a regexp like "a+" forward on a string > like "aaa" finds all occurrences of "aaa" as one match, but backward > regexp search matches every "a" individually. --f46d0444023a0b825404b795ca18 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So it seems that the support for negative arguments will be best effort any= way.
Ok, I will make sure the counting is done right. Also I believe = that
when C-- C-1 isearch-forward is pressed the user expects to stay = in isearch-forward and not switch to isearch-backward so I will add another= call to isearch-forward just to change the direction. Not pretty but shoul= d do the job.

Thanks, gideon.

On , Juri Linkov <ju= ri@jurta.org> wrote:
> > Thank you for your comments Juri. = =A0Do you have a thought on how to
>
> > implement this= functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for?
>
> =
>
> Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forwar= d' is a pretty
>
> unobtrusive change and is standard = Emacs practice. =A0But if you want
>
> to do fancy stuff w= ith hint display then you could add a hook to
>
> `isearch= -lazy-highlight-update' and implement fancy features in a separate
>
> package whose functionality is added by the hook.
>= ;
>
>
> > Negative arguments in particular se= em to be challenging. Right now I
>
> > implemented neg= ative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with the
>
> > opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects.>
> > For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 is= earch-forward does
>
> > not go back one matched string= but rather just switches to
>
> > isearch-backward and= so on.
>
>
>
> Then you need to take in= to account this situation and to add 1 to the
>
> counter = when isearch-forward switches to isearch-backward with C-- C-1.
> <= br />>
>
> > I did implement visual hints for the n= egative arguments because that
>
> > would require chan= ging the way lazy highlight works significantly
>
> > (= lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that
&g= t;
> > point you can't know the negative argument for the c= urrent match).
>
>
>
> There are other p= roblems with negative arguments: sometimes backward
>
> re= gexp search finds more matches than forward regexp search.
>
= > For instance, trying to search a regexp like "a+" forward on= a string
>
> like "aaa" finds all occurrences o= f "aaa" as one match, but backward
>
> regexp se= arch matches every "a" individually.
> --f46d0444023a0b825404b795ca18-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 07:40:52 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rr7aO-0006jU-RR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:40:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36468) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7aM-0006in-5q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:40:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7aK-0006oD-Os for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:40:50 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f199.google.com ([74.125.82.199]:63154) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr7aK-0006o9-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:40:48 -0500 Received: by werc1 with SMTP id c1so159265wer.6 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:40:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.135.100 with SMTP id t78mr670737wei.2.1327754447139; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 04:40:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0016e6de03cf2bb53304b795ec2c@google.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:47 +0000 Subject: Re: RE: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward tosupport a prefix argument f From: gideon.stupp@gmail.com To: Drew Adams , Gideon Stupp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6de03cf2bb52204b795ec29 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.199 Cc: Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:51 -0000 --0016e6de03cf2bb52204b795ec29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Thanks for pointing that out Drew. I think that if I follow Juri's suggestion and rely on isearch-allow-scroll instead of changing the key mapping it should be ok. Gideon. On , Drew Adams wrote: > > Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pretty > > unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. > Not really following this thread, so I don't have an opinion on the > proposed > change (not even sure what it is). > I'd just point out that the use of a prefix arg for the count does change > the > current UI, where the prefix arg has a different meaning. (Not a big deal, > IMO.) --0016e6de03cf2bb52204b795ec29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for pointing that out Drew. I think that if I follow Juri's sugg= estion and rely on isearch-allow-scroll instead of changing the key mapping= it should be ok.

Gideon.

On , Drew Adams <drew.ad= ams@oracle.com> wrote:
> > Adding a new count argument to `is= earch-repeat-forward' is a pretty
>
> > unobtrusive= change and is standard Emacs practice.
>
>
> > Not really following this thread, so I don't have an opinion on= the proposed
>
> change (not even sure what it is).
= >
>
>
> I'd just point out that the use o= f a prefix arg for the count does change the
>
> current U= I, where the prefix arg has a different meaning. =A0(Not a big deal,
&= gt;
> IMO.)
>
>
> --0016e6de03cf2bb52204b795ec29-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 12:36:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrCCn-0003xg-Qn for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:36:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrCCl-0003wD-3p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:36:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrCCk-00024t-3h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:36:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:60480) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrCCh-00024J-FP; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:36:43 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:45623 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrCCg-0001i8-Dm; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:36:43 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Emacs 23.4 released Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:36:29 +0800 Message-ID: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:36:48 -0000 GNU Emacs 23.4 has been released, and is now available at ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/ and the GNU FTP mirrors (see http://www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html). The SHA1 checksums are: 0a78466fff52d1f43c0db0ea66651a0b13b7e473 emacs-23.4.tar.gz 5effbd2af6bf7a4feb2d80810e49b0ce47b463cb emacs-23.4.tar.bz2 Please send bug reports to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. You can use the command M-x report-emacs-bug to do this. Emacs 23.4 mainly fixes a security flaw in EDE (CVE-2012-0035), described at http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-01/msg00387.html It also contains a number of other bugfixes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 14:05:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrDaj-0000na-FH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:05:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52716) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrDah-0000mC-JW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:05:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrDag-0003ZL-Go for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:05:35 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:46249) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrDag-0003ZE-7M; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:05:34 -0500 Received: from 93-41-188-50.ip82.fastwebnet.it ([93.41.188.50] helo=rusty) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RrDaZ-00043b-Op; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:05:27 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: [PATCH] browse-url-mailto References: <8739bnyw20.fsf@lavabit.com> <87mx9955th.fsf@gnus.org> <8739b0o846.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:05:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8739b0o846.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:48:09 +0800") Message-ID: <8739azvea2.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1RrDaZ-00043b-Op X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1328382328.0364@79zK4JdGYmgYyNY8OvPqhw X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 Cc: Elias Pipping , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:05:36 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > I think the present naming is fine. Okidoke. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no * Sent from my Rome From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 17:59:40 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrHFE-0001sX-BA for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53221) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHFB-0001rF-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHFA-00061K-Ci for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:37 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183]:18443) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHF8-000613-Uc; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:34 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwIAF99JE9FpZaC/2dsb2JhbABBrVCBCIEGgXIBAQQBViMFCwsOJhIUGA0kHIdzCbguiGEPAgQCBwIFAgIBBA8HBwEBAQIBAoQeBgUgCYM0BIg/mnOEVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,586,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="159766030" Received: from 69-165-150-130.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.150.130]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Jan 2012 17:59:34 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id B92B059328; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:33 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released Message-ID: References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:36:29 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.183 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:59:38 -0000 > GNU Emacs 23.4 has been released, and is now available at > ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/ and the GNU FTP mirrors (see > http://www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html). Yay! Than1 Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 18:23:25 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrHcD-0004r8-1s for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:23:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43401) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHcA-0004r2-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:23:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHc9-0000Cn-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:23:22 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:49643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrHc7-0000Cb-Se; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:23:20 -0500 Received: by wera13 with SMTP id a13so2789668wer.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:23:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=MbKGRWskIsRjIAbyZ/fDdE0795GBbPB/N4SvWy8VgmY=; b=CBlpwyhTTl2cZ7x4W+DMC9OA2Rp7QZ9C4ejjvCFNAUELC+/cwmhifgzFUD9Uci5eJI K4htY3EsDbmuSiA6EVwNkkvlWhTkUBj8wH+LJMsVdufdbMA0rCbRS//+HhXzMTCRY6Fb w6NTK6ZK0VldDwa3GeIWaaGIOcKXZWlJSVKF0= Received: by 10.216.132.32 with SMTP id n32mr1561724wei.41.1327792997560; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:23:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from myhost.localdomain (pha75-11-82-236-86-204.fbx.proxad.net. [82.236.86.204]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m8sm37016205wia.11.2012.01.28.15.23.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:23:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: Bastien Guerry Received: by myhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 353F8AA1C; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:24:29 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:59:33 -0500") References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:24:29 +0100 Message-ID: <87ipjvwguq.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.82.169 Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:23:23 -0000 Stefan Monnier writes: >> GNU Emacs 23.4 has been released, and is now available at >> ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/ and the GNU FTP mirrors (see >> http://www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html). > > Yay! Than1 +1 Than2! -- Bastien From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jan 28 21:45:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrKlk-0002Jl-A4 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:45:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrKlh-0002Hg-Kd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:45:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrKlf-0003xa-Nf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:45:25 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:54394) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrKlf-0003xP-EN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:45:23 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so2983346pba.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:45:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4MPVf+gizSJLIEyhXtC1iWNTCqwxD0Oa23tNtyFe+3Q=; b=aqdFut7xgti3MJQ0TjOup/Zm9abT8fYmbxvdqUGXF9WEtTdBbtMqoHvNa31LgqfAx0 XOBHJIGsoB/ABgwaANksqhku4VRCjufSn7NuDIv6UR9uOvqGTWMCT2r9S7+zB3yVMlK8 UEPEJql8X99HVueVlvckqFBy0RlxcXZj+nlgQ= Received: by 10.68.75.199 with SMTP id e7mr28317329pbw.128.1327805122222; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:45:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:44:40 -0800 (PST) From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:44:40 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Some question about display-buffer action functions To: Emacs developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:45:26 -0000 A long and boring and two just boring questions regarding the new window machinery for display-buffer. 1) [tl;dr: perhaps some sort of display-buffer hook (or hook actions) would make action functions more flexible.] I'm converting window-related functions from my .emacs to use display-buffer's "action functions" (AF from now on), with the goal of getting rid of as much custom code as possible, or at least converting my custom ad hoc functions into more generic custom AFs. Ideally, the AFs should be generic enough to be worthy candidates for inclusion in future releases (for example, display-buffer-choose-window-with-predicate). A repeated problem I find is what to do when windows need to be set up in some specific way; for example, to make them dedicated, or to add my own window parameters. [In the following example, I'm not claiming my setup is generally useful to anyone else; I'm talking only about the "window setup" problem.] In most cases, I use a single-window configuration, except when I'm developing code in a mode with an inferior process (sql, lisp, scheme, python, and I also use ielm as "inferior mode" of elisp buffers). In these cases, I split the frame in two windows, with the one above (SUP) showing the code, and the one below (INF) showing the inferior process. INF has a specific height, a window parameter that says that it is to be used only for inferior processes, and it is strongly dedicated, to prevent bs-cycle-*, which use "(switch-to-buffer next nil t)", to switch buffers by accident. Suppose I have a Python buffer in SUP, and no INF. Starting the inferior process should create INF, and display *Python*. Now, in SUP I switch to an SQL-mode buffer (INF is not affected). Starting the MySQL inferior process generates and displays the *SQL* buffer, which must appear in INF. I have a custom AF called jb-inferior, and a function jb-setup which sets up the window to my liking. It seems straightforward to use display-buffer-alist for that, so I add "*SQL*" and "*Python*" to that variable, with an AF of jb-inferior. Now, in an ideal world, after calling (pop-to-buffer BUFFER) for one of these buffers, the process would be: - jb-inferior is called, looks for INF; if found and alive, use it, and return INF; else return nil. - If nil, another, non-custom AF (likely display-buffer-pop-up-window) will take care of selecting/creating the appropriate window and returning it. - Then, call jb-setup for the window selected. which is quite modular and elegant. But there's no way to call jb-setup after selecting the window, at least not easily. I can think of a few answers, but they start ugly and go down from there: - Invoke pop-to-buffer (or display-buffer) from inside a custom function, like this: (defun my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window (my-buffer) (pop-to-buffer my-buffer) (jb-setup (get-buffer-window my-buffer))) which will work in this particular case, but it's not a generic answer in cases where display-buffer and friends are called from code not under my control. - Modify jb-inferior to always return a window, either finding INF or spliting SUP, so it can run jb-setup before returning INF. This works and it's easy, but it just kills modularity and elegance, and forces jb-inferior to do a poor job of duplicating the work of the standard AFs. - Use window hooks (window-scroll-functions, window-size-change-functions or window-configuration-change-hook), which is not nice because the correspondence buffer<->window, known while running display-buffer, is lost and has to be recomputed; and additionally, these hooks run for every window created or buffer displayed, which is wasted work. - Or use a custom split-window-preferred-function. Most horrible because it would destroy abstraction. One possible answer would be having a display-buffer-(after-)functions, which would get passed the buffer and window after the window has been selected. (A -before-hook seems less useful, and can be simulated with an AF which runs the code you're interested and always return nil). Another one would be to have a hook entry for the action alist (after-selecting-window-function or somesuch) that would be run by the (custom and non-custom) AFs as the last thing done upon selecting a window, just before returning it. 2) Is there any way to set up the quit-window parameter of a window so quit-window just always deletes the window? In the case above, when I'm in INF and type quit-window I always want to destroy the window. Even if INF was assigned to *Python* and then *SQL*, quit-window should not go back to *Python*. Currently I'm forced to do (defun jb-bury-interact (&optional finish) "Bury inferior interactive buffer. If FINISH, terminate inferior process." (interactive "P") (unless (one-window-p t) (when finish (comint-send-eof)) (bury-buffer) (window--delete nil t))) 3) It would be nice to make writing custom AFs simpler. Currently I'm just ignoring the inhibit-same-window and reusable-frames actions in my AFs (not to mention display-buffer-reuse-frames and pop-up-frames) because it is a PITA to wrap your head around them... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 05:01:03 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrRZH-00068I-Tb for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:01:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53974) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrRZD-000689-Kp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:01:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrRZC-0001Gc-2S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:00:59 -0500 Received: from smtp207.alice.it ([82.57.200.103]:60195) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrRZB-0001Fq-R4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:00:58 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (79.35.222.74) by smtp207.alice.it (8.6.023.02) id 4F05A66502A17E68 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:55 +0100 Message-ID: <4F2518D5.1090208@alice.it> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:53 +0100 From: Angelo Graziosi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode References: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> In-Reply-To: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.103 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:01:02 -0000 aquamacs has AUCTeX by default... Il 27/01/2012 9.29, Angelo Graziosi ha scritto: > Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> We could move it from ELPA to Emacs without >> any legal trouble. > > Do it soon, then... :-) > > Thanks, > Angelo. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 05:46:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrSHd-0005HP-1d for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:46:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56491) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSHa-0005Gc-U5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:46:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSHa-0006oX-2x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:46:50 -0500 Received: from a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de ([134.93.134.1]:49885) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSHZ-0006oC-RW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:46:50 -0500 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.134.92]) by a1iwww1.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id q0TAkavZ023790 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:46:36 +0100 Received: from a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0TAkapn020418; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:46:36 +0100 Received: (from ulm@localhost) by a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0TAkaSQ020417; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:46:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20261.9100.530243.54527@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:46:36 +0100 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Could distributed tarballs be compressed with xz instead of bzip2? X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 23.4.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) From: Ulrich Mueller X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 134.93.134.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:46:51 -0000 It would be considerably smaller (sizes are for "bzip2 -9" and "xz -6" which is the default): 51056640 emacs-24.0.92.tar.gz 41410560 emacs-24.0.92.tar.bz2 34443264 emacs-24.0.92.tar.xz Also xz can be uncompressed much faster: $ time bunzip2 emacs-24.0.92.tar.bz2 real 0m11.840s user 0m10.393s sys 0m0.423s $ time unxz emacs-24.0.92.tar.xz real 0m4.251s user 0m3.833s sys 0m0.412s From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 06:15:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrSjW-0001wc-VO for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:15:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45777) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSjS-0001nC-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:15:39 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSjR-0001Th-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:15:38 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:52842) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrSjQ-0001Ta-Qc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:15:37 -0500 Received: by wibhj13 with SMTP id hj13so3239532wib.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:15:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T7Tt0fjZ4D9iIY9y8FnRW5JZFeXnl0FDth/xb8pXBDc=; b=CHk4SADGL0UqvW1ECeZAU308Q20i4lkEotMYLssOCwuAtGy3GWDHS3TYaQVbofNvHI Iabl/GP6VpmQifKvLM5aJisWmTo0+YINyGsBNrPTk3jVKGldBx99yDoFuHsM8+ebIIh5 rv5D0eEnoy3UetZ1Q2hsUxR555uxdqpplHbgM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.105.129 with SMTP id gm1mr19852164wib.1.1327835734847; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.171.65 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:15:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F2518D5.1090208@alice.it> References: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> <4F2518D5.1090208@alice.it> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:15:34 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Fenn?= To: Angelo Graziosi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 Cc: emacs X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:15:39 -0000 Am 29. Januar 2012 11:00 schrieb Angelo Graziosi = : > aquamacs has AUCTeX by default... No point against finally including it in Emacs proper. Regards, J=FCrgen. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 09:42:56 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrVy4-0004PT-CJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:42:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrVy2-0004PN-J6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:42:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrVy1-0000dG-Nc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:42:54 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:38136) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrVy1-0000d1-JR; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:42:53 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so5221864iad.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:42:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s0nxdTuvS5hqH2Klft8dacMuT1oh+TbPTETlBILyJWI=; b=ZKsOwG+dKbSGlXFdn4EF25Y0ppd+xfN8xwltv6GhWH7OP1hpXvv5vstjq0zGgo+0DV Pvx1WC6/ZVYE8Ehz6EWpnM+I5ApGaOGmteqqjaIxLRFIsrC+4chdtJepS9bi0JeLWYYB D/Vz+8yxoELVwv+IvnB+lJvdlQhPPXv0UJWww= Received: by 10.42.161.73 with SMTP id s9mr11301144icx.16.1327848171636; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xu6sm7841006igb.7.2012.01.29.06.42.50 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:42:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F255AE1.203@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 07:42:41 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel Subject: Emacs 23.4 release build flags Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Jason Rumney X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:42:55 -0000 Hi Eli and Jason, for the release build of Emacs 23.4 are the following options OK? configure.bat --no-debug --with-gcc --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include It's mainly a question about building an optimized build without debug symbols. Thanks, Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 11:00:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrXBM-0006ZN-OP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47731) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXBF-0006Vu-T9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXBB-00018q-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:37 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:44013) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXBB-00018l-E7; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:00:33 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so5285969iad.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:00:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SoYvZEtkoOT9V3k5Pi2BTUSMV2H77UlGdqs6FdSOQw4=; b=iAI4Gyl0pE4NJ0k0fAf8F2kN/H/MZ+aiGKyBQKi9lhJmG8ZcSrjs9n0BcqYteXL+xP L8XuvqyFCj6pdTbZdDexpE0DVoUacRzLF9fN/HdLtEFGhxS23nzTWYk8dMD6sV8DIww8 PO2Gw3cAJk3G5xQdhTSeXQwZ21yhi5yCp2x2E= Received: by 10.50.189.194 with SMTP id gk2mr15005405igc.0.1327852832449; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id or2sm7685194igc.5.2012.01.29.08.00.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:00:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:00:30 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel , Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> In-Reply-To: <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: Juanma Barranquero , Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:00:41 -0000 Ted, On 1/26/2012 8:44 AM, Ted Zlatanov wrote: > Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for > Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform? We > had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be > the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core > Emacs developers). If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produce > the GnuTLS DLLs for you. From what Eli said about his experience building GnuTLS on W32 this is something I'd rather not take on. My time is rather limited. I am happy to build against whichever GnuTLS lib with binaries is available for W32 wherever. Whether that is on Eli's site or the official GnuTLS site. I will also include a link to a location where to obtain the binaries in my release announcements from now on. Regarding shipping Emacs with the GnuTLS binaries, I am generally not opposed to doing that. But what about jpeg, gif, tiff support? I agree with Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary distribution_. This whole model does not fit the expectations in the Windows world. In 2012, Windows users expect an "Emacs for Windows" with all (binary) batteries included, an installer/uninstaller, etc. We don't supply that and unless somebody steps up and does the work necessary we won't. Whether politically speaking we should is another question. Right now I am building against Eli's library v3.0.9. If you provide a more recent, working, binary build for Windows and there is a somewhat convenient way for me to get it (I can script downloading and unzip'ing) I can include it in the binary distribution. That is, of course, if nobody has compelling arguments why I should not. Do we have to provide the source for GnuTLS if we include it in the distro or is it enough for it to be available on the GnuTLS site? Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 11:11:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrXM5-0008Hy-DJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:11:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50800) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXM2-0008Hs-MK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:11:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXM1-0002Nv-8u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:11:46 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:46015) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXM0-0002Nl-UZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:11:45 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so4111358obb.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:11:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AM0fVvemuW7VmlEwFbkbFCLwfq5WPiCpz08p35Ho8C4=; b=nXnXoi0CxpkGZOmwHW3pLZCzFLzZKnFR7BE+21LCnb/trAXm/2A46OlXZTgx9B1DMK i9jlkpTbisXz2oh+h6mTqFIUJSIDEUv3GkT1RzfMLVyY3ZhxV3smVk9rPC9QoLqYJ/ph YONAiLHE/yW66caC/d2Vh/Mo9vjABlgkq4Fdg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.231.7 with SMTP id tc7mr21702288obc.29.1327853504037; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.242.41 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:11:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:11:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov From: Gideon Stupp To: Juri Linkov Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d044788776c028504b7acfc46 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:11:47 -0000 --f46d044788776c028504b7acfc46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044788776c028204b7acfc44 --f46d044788776c028204b7acfc44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Juri, I am attaching a short patch which implements prefix arg support for 'isearch-repeat-forward' and 'isearch-repeat-backward'. It does not contain any visual hints or even hooks for visual support because it seems worthwhile to test this functionality for a while before adding anything "fancy" as you say. Negative arguments are supported in what seems to me a reasonable way, though clearly not ideal for regex searches as point out. Please let me know if you think any more changes are required. Thanks, Gideon. On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Juri Linkov wrote: > > Thank you for your comments Juri. Do you have a thought on how to > > implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for? > > Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pretty > unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. But if you want > to do fancy stuff with hint display then you could add a hook to > `isearch-lazy-highlight-update' and implement fancy features in a separate > package whose functionality is added by the hook. > > > Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I > > implemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat with > the > > opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects. > > For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 isearch-forward does > > not go back one matched string but rather just switches to > > isearch-backward and so on. > > Then you need to take into account this situation and to add 1 to the > counter when isearch-forward switches to isearch-backward with C-- C-1. > > > I did implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that > > would require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly > > (lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that > > point you can't know the negative argument for the current match). > > There are other problems with negative arguments: sometimes backward > regexp search finds more matches than forward regexp search. > For instance, trying to search a regexp like "a+" forward on a string > like "aaa" finds all occurrences of "aaa" as one match, but backward > regexp search matches every "a" individually. > --f46d044788776c028204b7acfc44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Juri,

I am attaching a short patch which impleme= nts prefix arg support for 'isearch-repeat-forward' and 'isearc= h-repeat-backward'. It does not contain any visual hints or even hooks = for visual support because it seems worthwhile to test this functionality f= or a while before adding anything "fancy" as you say.=A0 Negative= arguments are supported in what seems to me a reasonable way, though clear= ly not ideal for regex searches as point out.

Please let me know if you think any more changes are required.

T= hanks, Gideon.


On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 a= t 2:07 PM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:
> Thank you for your co= mments Juri. =A0Do you have a thought on how to
> implement this functionality as a package the way Stefan asked for?
Adding a new count argument to `isearch-repeat-forward' is a pret= ty
unobtrusive change and is standard Emacs practice. =A0But if you want
to do fancy stuff with hint display then you could add a hook to
`isearch-lazy-highlight-update' and implement fancy features in a separ= ate
package whose functionality is added by the hook.

> Negative arguments in particular seem to be challenging. Right now I > implemented negative argument navigation by calling isearch-repeat wit= h the
> opposite functionality but that has all kinds of odd effects.
> For example the search message changes, C-- C-1 isearch-forward does > not go back one matched string but rather just switches to
> isearch-backward and so on.

Then you need to take into account this situation and to add 1 to the=
counter when isearch-forward switches to isearch-backward with C-- C-1.

> I did implement visual hints for the negative arguments because that > would require changing the way lazy highlight works significantly
> (lazy-highlight loop wraps around back to the first line and at that > point you can't know the negative argument for the current match).=

There are other problems with negative arguments: sometimes backward<= br> regexp search finds more matches than forward regexp search.
For instance, trying to search a regexp like "a+" forward on a st= ring
like "aaa" finds all occurrences of "aaa" as one match,= but backward
regexp search matches every "a" individually.

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:17:21 -0000 Emacs pretest 24.0.93 is now available for download via FTP, at the following location: ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/emacs-24.0.93.tar.gz This is the fourth pretest for what will become Emacs 24.1. See etc/NEWS for a list of changes since Emacs 23.4. Please send me an email reporting success or failure on your build platform. Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. Thank you for helping to test Emacs. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 11:39:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrXmZ-0002k8-Gv for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:39:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40553) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXmX-0002hw-2z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:39:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXmV-00069z-Oj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:39:09 -0500 Received: from mx.meyering.net ([88.168.87.75]:55540) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXmV-00069v-Fg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:39:07 -0500 Received: from rho.meyering.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rho.meyering.net (Acme Bit-Twister) with ESMTP id E240E603F7; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:39:05 +0100 (CET) From: Jim Meyering To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: Changing the default perl mode In-Reply-To: <4F239871.90405@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:49 -0800") References: <4F239871.90405@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:39:05 +0100 Message-ID: <871uqiqx92.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 88.168.87.75 Cc: Joe Higton , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:39:10 -0000 Paul Eggert wrote: > On 01/27/2012 05:30 AM, Joe Higton wrote: >> What are the chances of changing the default >> emacs mode for Perl to cperl-mode? > > If that's the established favorite, then I'd say the chances > should be fairly good. I suggest filing a bug report (you can > use M-x report-emacs-bug), preferably with a patch; you can then > track its status at . Emacs is > in feature-freeze right now, in preparation for Emacs 24, > so any change wouldn't happen right away. Good idea. Long overdue. It would be good for new Perl/Emacs users everywhere. I've been a happy user of cperl-mode since 1997, and never looked back (so I don't know if perl-mode is now a competitor). From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 11:48:13 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrXvJ-0003dY-Ln for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:48:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57667) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXvG-0003bY-MP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:48:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXvF-0007RD-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:48:10 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:56615) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrXvB-0007QW-Fz; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:48:07 -0500 Received: by dake40 with SMTP id e40so3116938dak.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:48:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TGwzQuXpXWOZD86nd8BDedgE+HEGE4emnf+XOUAiuAc=; b=vpIfUqN+Xbt3wJ/5wacB1cdQGLPSx5afxM4dIg2a4OLuVssyKqT2nge8s0fZwEuY56 AiIKS2eWH401G4CCvioauBr1xQq+5v+rhnqoXaczsK8AX2N5XEsWWO8P9SHdfbymFEmq B4lt3J7zQYjjDazv7dmExTGp4w2schbLLlcmc= Received: by 10.68.74.134 with SMTP id t6mr34326919pbv.26.1327855684177; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:48:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:47:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:47:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries To: Christoph Scholtes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Eli Zaretskii , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:48:11 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 17:00, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > I agree with > Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary distribution_= . Yes, and only because we're sort of forced to do it. > I can include > it in the binary distribution. That is, of course, if nobody has compelli= ng > arguments why I should not. Apart from politics, the other reason against (whether other people finds it compelling or not, I don't know), is that including the binary means taking responsibility. For example, to release security upgrades as soon as possible, at least for serious bugs. That also means monitoring the GnuTLS lists (or security bulletins). Which is currently done, I think, but what if the people doing it suddently lacks time or just moves to other pursuits? It's easy to start distributing the GnuTLS DLLs, harder to stop doing it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:02:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrY92-0007eb-2H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:02:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48571) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrY8y-0007aI-5X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:02:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrY8w-00015A-Tg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:02:20 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:56341) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrY8w-00014x-J1; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:02:18 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYK00300JB2U900@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:01:33 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYK003D1KMKWO20@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:01:33 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:59:32 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 release build flags In-reply-to: <4F255AE1.203@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Christoph Scholtes Message-id: <831uqixx57.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4F255AE1.203@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: jasonr@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:02:21 -0000 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 07:42:41 -0700 > From: Christoph Scholtes > CC: Eli Zaretskii , Jason Rumney > > for the release build of Emacs 23.4 are the following options OK? > > configure.bat --no-debug --with-gcc --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include --cflags > -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include > > It's mainly a question about building an optimized build without debug > symbols. I think this is correct, yes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:07:42 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrYEA-0008KW-Nj for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:07:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60393) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYE8-0008KP-Qc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:07:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYE7-0001rV-JG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:07:40 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:56899) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYE7-0001rN-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:07:39 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYK00300KRLY300@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:07:38 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYK003HIKWPWO30@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:07:38 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:05:37 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries In-reply-to: <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Christoph Scholtes Message-id: <83y5sqwiam.fsf@gnu.org> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, tzz@lifelogs.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:07:42 -0000 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:00:30 -0700 > From: Christoph Scholtes > CC: Eli Zaretskii , Juanma Barranquero > > Do we have to provide the source for GnuTLS if we include it in the > distro Yes, we do. For GnuTLS and for all its dependency DLLs as well (4 other packages, you will find them in my binary distro). From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:08:55 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrYFL-0000Ld-8z for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:08:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYFI-0000Ju-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:08:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYFG-0002AM-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:08:52 -0500 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:64633) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYFG-0002AI-JV; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:08:50 -0500 Received: by ghrr14 with SMTP id r14so1596523ghr.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:08:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IISPYbrgfgIdxbRT8my4i6EYOXzSZq93SMgcjDvqsuU=; b=n9h/WX4BmR522k4xB+3bwSMd5X6/hnj9Mjk3YU8MMxDwLHp2vr3pDZIZGUXM0gMtAe z//dfYM9C95jeKvk/AjAkW0Rrx5JCSyMdSrDO+yvV/0BJ72e8/ZhkIOQ0nyGmk+bZY4l VsvkiXKrShkDKGw7Vapnyq+6qajrqVGctY9+A= Received: by 10.236.123.47 with SMTP id u35mr21391847yhh.115.1327856929876; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o9sm26206460yhk.20.2012.01.29.09.08.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:08:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F257D1F.5050105@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:08:47 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.169 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Eli Zaretskii , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:08:53 -0000 On 1/29/2012 9:47 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: >> I agree with >> Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary distribution_. > > Yes, and only because we're sort of forced to do it. Why is that? > Apart from politics, the other reason against (whether other people > finds it compelling or not, I don't know), is that including the > binary means taking responsibility. For example, to release security > upgrades as soon as possible, at least for serious bugs. That also > means monitoring the GnuTLS lists (or security bulletins). Which is > currently done, I think, but what if the people doing it suddently > lacks time or just moves to other pursuits? It's easy to start > distributing the GnuTLS DLLs, harder to stop doing it. I agree, but doesn't that also start with compiling support for GnuTLS into the prebuilt Emacs? Don't we start taking responsibility at that point? If there is a security update for GnuTLS that requires the user to use the latest certain version, don't we have to provide support for the latest version in the binary? Assuming that you can't use the fixed binary with the previous versions headers, that is. Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:27:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrYXX-0002oi-Ny for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:27:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55888) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYXV-0002oc-9A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:27:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYXU-0004AH-Cj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:27:41 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:39994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYXT-00049l-0h; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:27:39 -0500 Received: by dake40 with SMTP id e40so3135909dak.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RRHHgD5rwlY8S5z2zR9hec3L8kA33JVROefo5KrMjls=; b=NNBxJE/fZ3ppf3JV2my9QIawQ0+3iPVmeMjgjhmUxmvCOIpxFbZ32MdwgOO7p7p3Yg Y9EiKem+IDQVkIbiwG+RtEcZbWkEacDFLS7uaXhO95Dtm7H6ZLMZgyHASAgntTKrJm6D kia0aRwucVy7mWHn60oPEosildMN7QKaJ7Wmo= Received: by 10.68.75.199 with SMTP id e7mr34289221pbw.128.1327858057153; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:26:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F257D1F.5050105@gmail.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> <4F257D1F.5050105@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:26:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries To: Christoph Scholtes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Eli Zaretskii , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:27:42 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 18:08, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > Why is that? Because the number of Windows machines with a compiler and a build environment is almost zero, and though they are available (and free) the average Windows users knows nothing about them and wouldn't know how to (or be interested in) install and use them. It's been said a few times here, by RMS and others, than providing Emacs for Windows (binary or not) is intended to be a bridgehead to introduce users of non-free software to the advantages of free software (not to facilitate them using Windows). If we didn't offer binaries for Windows, almost nobody would use it. It's politically convenient to provide them. > I agree, but doesn't that also start with compiling support for GnuTLS in= to > the prebuilt Emacs? No. That's just an enabler. Whether they use it or not is their decision, and they should be aware of the risks and benefits before doing it. > If there is a security update for GnuTLS that requires the user to use t= he > latest certain version, don't we have to provide support for the latest > version in the binary? Yes, but bugs that force a change in the API are less frequent. Of course as soon as we add some capability we expose the user to security risks (23.4 wouldn't be needed without EDE). We have to put the line at some point. And, in any case, bearing the responsibility of the upgrades isn't my main objection, and never has, just another inconvenience. The main argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects and maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building and distributing it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:33:58 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrYda-0003XU-9l for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33079) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYdP-0003UI-VJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYd6-0004sK-5b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:47 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:38549) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYd5-0004ru-EX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:27 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 Jan 2012 17:33:24 -0000 Received: from 62-47-39-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.39.221]) [62.47.39.221] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 29 Jan 2012 18:33:24 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/9DS0TEyP9EaoHYSvDLClZyDKI9vh6WjeBRmXiBO CrYoanwBhnS8Jt Message-ID: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:32:15 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:33:56 -0000 > It seems straightforward to use display-buffer-alist for that, so I > add "*SQL*" and "*Python*" to that variable, with an AF of > jb-inferior. > > Now, in an ideal world, after calling (pop-to-buffer BUFFER) for one > of these buffers, the process would be: > > - jb-inferior is called, looks for INF; if found and alive, use it, > and return INF; else return nil. > - If nil, another, non-custom AF (likely > display-buffer-pop-up-window) will take care of selecting/creating the > appropriate window and returning it. Basically that's what side windows should eventually do. In your case the INF window would be the bottom side window with slot number zero. It's either reused or created and weakly dedicated so it's not reused by other buffer display functions. > - Then, call jb-setup for the window selected. > > which is quite modular and elegant. But there's no way to call > jb-setup after selecting the window, at least not easily. I can think > of a few answers, but they start ugly and go down from there: > > - Invoke pop-to-buffer (or display-buffer) from inside a custom > function, like this: > > (defun my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window (my-buffer) > (pop-to-buffer my-buffer) > (jb-setup (get-buffer-window my-buffer))) How is `my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window' different from `jb-inferior' (apart from the missing ALIST argument)? Also, wouldn't `pop-to-buffer' (indirectly, via `display-buffer-alist') call `my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window' again? > which will work in this particular case, but it's not a generic > answer in cases where display-buffer and friends are called from code > not under my control. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here: Shouldn't the setup of _any_ buffer appearing in INF be under your control via `jb-setup'? > - Modify jb-inferior to always return a window, either finding INF or > spliting SUP, so it can run jb-setup before returning INF. This works > and it's easy, but it just kills modularity and elegance, and forces > jb-inferior to do a poor job of duplicating the work of the standard > AFs. Do you mean that jb-inferior cannot call `display-buffer-pop-up-window' or that it's clumsy to do that? > - Use window hooks (window-scroll-functions, > window-size-change-functions or window-configuration-change-hook), > which is not nice because the correspondence buffer<->window, known > while running display-buffer, is lost and has to be recomputed; and > additionally, these hooks run for every window created or buffer > displayed, which is wasted work. Neither of these hooks is appropriate here. > - Or use a custom split-window-preferred-function. Most horrible > because it would destroy abstraction. Indeed. > One possible answer would be having a > display-buffer-(after-)functions, which would get passed the buffer > and window after the window has been selected. It should be passed just the window after `set-window-buffer' since then the buffer can be easily derived from the window. BTW `display-buffer' doesn't necessarily select the window. > (A -before-hook seems > less useful, and can be simulated with an AF which runs the code > you're interested and always return nil). Another one would be to have > a hook entry for the action alist (after-selecting-window-function or > somesuch) that would be run by the (custom and non-custom) AFs as the > last thing done upon selecting a window, just before returning it. It should probably be a `display-buffer-hook'. But note that a hook always requires people knowing how to write the corresponding function. What about people who want to accomplish the necessary functionality via the customization interface? > 2) Is there any way to set up the quit-window parameter of a window > so quit-window just always deletes the window? In the case above, when > I'm in INF and type quit-window I always want to destroy the window. > Even if INF was assigned to *Python* and then *SQL*, quit-window > should not go back to *Python*. Currently I'm forced to do > > (defun jb-bury-interact (&optional finish) > "Bury inferior interactive buffer. > If FINISH, terminate inferior process." > (interactive "P") > (unless (one-window-p t) > (when finish (comint-send-eof)) > (bury-buffer) > (window--delete nil t))) Calling (display-buffer-record-window 'window window buffer) from within `jb-inferior' should do that. > 3) It would be nice to make writing custom AFs simpler. Currently I'm > just ignoring the inhibit-same-window and reusable-frames actions in > my AFs (not to mention display-buffer-reuse-frames and pop-up-frames) > because it is a PITA to wrap your head around them... I'm by no means against a `display-buffer-hook'. But first I'd like to know why `display-buffer-alist' together with the ALIST argument cannot be used to do that without calling a hook function. That is, why can't you do something like (defun jb-inferior (buffer alist) (let ((window (window-with-parameter 'inferior-only))) (if window (set-window-buffer window buffer) (setq window (display-buffer-pop-up-window buffer alist))) (display-buffer-record-window 'window window buffer) (jb-setup window) window)) martin From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 12:53:29 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrYwT-00062w-S0 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:53:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57195) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYwR-00061i-0Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:53:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYwM-0006vJ-MY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:53:26 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:38359) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrYwK-0006ut-Ju; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:53:20 -0500 Received: by ggnr5 with SMTP id r5so970683ggn.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:53:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M1aQadDYjcmSP3SNokV5FY/3cVJ0nw6IKJNwEwYehzc=; b=IeuZ9lwRjOaSRaR9NoRBf3xAbyMBYoqvEfbSCHAgG8hKjMifUPcATkVzRJsOmACTpg vwUpsf+aMjRkS27QPIvJWPWfncX1I8M1oWr8s8y/ebEKbhvzQlfVISAVfDAGsHO4ltKC o8zg6/6+OFUUARM5DMUBd9yN1IpmLUOAqVcuw= Received: by 10.101.74.1 with SMTP id b1mr6613598anl.43.1327859599904; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 34sm38974760anp.13.2012.01.29.09.53.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:53:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:53:15 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:53:28 -0000 Chong, On Windows, Emacs 23.4 crashes during dumping with return code -1073741819 (0xC0000005, Access Violation). The 23.3.90 built fine, but unfortunately I didn't get to build the 23.4 RC1, which crashes also. I just did a test build. I apologize for that. Eli, any pointers on how to troubleshoot this would be appreciated. "../nt/oo-spd/i386/addsection" "oo-spd/i386/temacs.bin" "oo-spd/i386/temacs.exe" EMHEAP 21 Dumping from oo-spd/i386/temacs.bin to oo-spd/i386/temacs.exe "./oo-spd/i386/temacs.exe" -batch -l loadup dump mingw32-make[1]: *** [oo-spd/i386/emacs.exe] Error -1073741819 mingw32-make[1]: Leaving directory `D:/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/sr c' mingw32-make: *** [all-other-dirs-gmake] Error 2 Using C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exe as shell. After cancelling the crash dialog it goes on to "./oo-spd/i386/temacs.exe" -batch -l loadup dump mingw32-make[1]: *** [oo-spd/i386/emacs.exe] Error -1073741819 mingw32-make[1]: Leaving directory `D:/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/sr c' mingw32-make: *** [all-other-dirs-gmake] Error 2 and crashes again. Thanks, Christoph On 1/28/2012 10:36 AM, Chong Yidong wrote: > GNU Emacs 23.4 has been released, and is now available at > ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/ and the GNU FTP mirrors (see > http://www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html). > > The SHA1 checksums are: > > 0a78466fff52d1f43c0db0ea66651a0b13b7e473 emacs-23.4.tar.gz > 5effbd2af6bf7a4feb2d80810e49b0ce47b463cb emacs-23.4.tar.bz2 > > Please send bug reports to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. You can use the > command M-x report-emacs-bug to do this. > > Emacs 23.4 mainly fixes a security flaw in EDE (CVE-2012-0035), > described at > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2012-01/msg00387.html > > It also contains a number of other bugfixes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 13:34:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrZZv-0002x7-F2 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:34:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58562) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZZt-0002ws-Hu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:34:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZZs-0003jq-MT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:34:13 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:48138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZZn-0003ft-L4; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:34:07 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYK00200ORT4800@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:34:06 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYK001Z8OWPWJ10@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:34:02 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:32:01 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released In-reply-to: <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Christoph Scholtes Message-id: <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:34:14 -0000 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:53:15 -0700 > From: Christoph Scholtes > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii > > On Windows, Emacs 23.4 crashes during dumping with return code > -1073741819 (0xC0000005, Access Violation). > > The 23.3.90 built fine, but unfortunately I didn't get to build the 23.4 > RC1, which crashes also. I just did a test build. I apologize for that. > > Eli, > any pointers on how to troubleshoot this would be appreciated. Does the unoptimized build (and with debug info) crash as well? If so, try running this command: > "./oo-spd/i386/temacs.exe" -batch -l loadup dump under GDB, and see where it crashes. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 13:42:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrZhV-0003rg-PX for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:42:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44989) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZhT-0003rP-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:42:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZhS-0004lf-Hi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:42:03 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:54835) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZhH-0004kr-US; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:41:52 -0500 Received: by ggnr5 with SMTP id r5so980166ggn.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GpxhMkijcc5xOuJNVCShlKA7KJ3QXmWnsWyCe9ZyElA=; b=YaNlZyW+3Kn381CmTb38gfvFKBfUOjwmpiXcwjGSesgfhvbMeoxXU10nqpfh+lxhy/ tcPfPMlQaVFQm7FubJjT+iQAempvrQmpdPF3+pmjus4+/h48Yls6Dd0ZYatYQ8MTGog5 YmVPmKwzwsVCzzWepF2zjlLYgbRQY5Ql0D2Zk= Received: by 10.101.152.7 with SMTP id e7mr6475748ano.83.1327862511072; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 44sm9974278yhs.5.2012.01.29.10.41.49 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:41:48 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: Christoph Scholtes , cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:42:04 -0000 On 1/29/2012 11:32 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Does the unoptimized build (and with debug info) crash as well? No, --no-opt does not crash. Does it still makes sense to run it in the debugger? Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 13:44:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrZk6-0004ER-4L for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:44:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZk3-0004EG-ON for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:44:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZk2-000599-Hu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:44:43 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:60321) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZk2-000591-8C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:44:42 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so3393438pba.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:44:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SyQJQ2cc0brATBUPiptVMLjfLAMbMgm1w7BNFo3VdeM=; b=CbR8CP9mu5Um429u8iIAgj5ECqxTlUkOxPPsAI/olvLJxLj9x2kWzoGcsZZT0sYAFE auc/IVQdXPp4bHrIA2Dm/yWvZ0B+lX8rxLFfPET+RdYGWtI++Ql4DNsD/tYbFZVq3Y4Y Vww6p+Bq29Hl3UK22gJNDU0sE74TFri2jnv4g= Received: by 10.68.199.38 with SMTP id jh6mr34502220pbc.77.1327862681173; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:44:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:44:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:44:01 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions To: martin rudalics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:44:45 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 18:32, martin rudalics wrote: > Basically that's what side windows should eventually do. =C2=A0In your ca= se > the INF window would be the bottom side window with slot number zero. > It's either reused or created and weakly dedicated so it's not reused by > other buffer display functions. As I said, weak dedication fails for the "(switch-to-buffer next nil t)" call in bs-cycle-next. I'd like a style of dedication that said "that window can only display a buffer from THIS list, and nothing else". > How is `my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window' different from > `jb-inferior' (apart from the missing ALIST argument)? =C2=A0Also, wouldn= 't > `pop-to-buffer' (indirectly, via `display-buffer-alist') call > `my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window' again? In my example, jb-inferior is an AF, to be used from display-buffer-alist. But my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window is not an AF, it's a user command that I invoke through a keybinding to create INF and display the inferior buffer. It relies on jb-inferior being set up in display-buffer-alist. If jb-setup could be done via a hook (or any other suitable method), my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window wouldn't be required at all. > I'm not sure I understand what you mean here: Shouldn't the setup of > _any_ buffer appearing in INF be under your control via `jb-setup'? Please, forget INF/SUP. Suppose I do "M-x list-buffers", and I've customized display-buffer-alist for the "*Buffer List*" buffer, using only standard AFs (the ones supplied with Emacs right now). How do I, additionally, run a setup function to modify the window chosen by the display-buffer call in list-buffers? Currently, I have to use window hooks, or wrap list-buffers in a custom user command, or advice it. (In fact, I use lot of advices just to run fit-window-to-buffer, which is another example of the same problem.) > Do you mean that jb-inferior cannot call `display-buffer-pop-up-window' > or that it's clumsy to do that? I mean that I'm being forced to decide in jb-inferior things that do not really concern jb-inferior. AFs should ideally be able to either choose and return a window, or return nil and pass the work to the rest of AFs according to the user setup. If the current design forces me to write custom AFs that always find and return a window, by hook or by crook, OK, I can do that, but that's working against the spirit of the feature, IMHO. > Neither of these hooks is appropriate here. Oh, I'm sure they could be beaten into submission; but I prefer not to follow that route. > It should be passed just the window after `set-window-buffer' since then > the buffer can be easily derived from the window. =C2=A0BTW `display-buff= er' > doesn't necessarily select the window. You're right. Twice. :-) > What about people who want to accomplish the necessary functionality via > the customization interface? Cannot answer that, as I try to avoid the customization interface as much as possible. > Calling (display-buffer-record-window 'window window buffer) from within > `jb-inferior' should do that. The code for quit-window does: ((and (not prev-buffer) (memq (nth 1 quit-restore) '(window frame)) (eq (nth 3 quit-restore) buffer) ;; Delete WINDOW if possible. (window--delete window nil kill)) which doesn't kill if there's a previous buffer. But even doing (let ((w (get-buffer-window buffer)) (window-size-fixed nil)) (display-buffer-record-window 'window w buffer) (set-window-prev-buffers w nil) (window-resize w (- my-inferior-window-max-height (window-total-height w)))) when I set up the window, quit-window still does not kill it. My setup is a bit complex; I'll try to isolate a test case and file a bug. > I'm by no means against a `display-buffer-hook'. Note that my preferred fix is not a hook variable, but a hook action. >=C2=A0But first I'd like to > know why `display-buffer-alist' together with the ALIST argument cannot > be used to do that without calling a hook function. =C2=A0That is, why ca= n't > you do something like > > (defun jb-inferior (buffer alist) > =C2=A0(let ((window (window-with-parameter 'inferior-only))) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0(if window > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(set-window-buffer window buffer) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(setq window (display-buffer-pop-up-window buffer ali= st))) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0(display-buffer-record-window 'window window buffer) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0(jb-setup window) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0window)) There are two reasons against that: 1) I'd prefer not to couple jb-inferior to `display-buffer-pop-up-window'. As a principle, I don't think AFs should call other AFs if possible. That's something for display-buffer-alist and the other user-configurable options to decide. 2) Because that makes jb-inferior depend on jb-setup, so any generality is lost. Of course my jb-inferior example is anything but generic (I said as much). But if I write a new AF `display-buffer-choose-window-with-predicate', which understands actions like `(predicate . (lambda (w) (>=3D (window-body-height w) 10)))', that's a completely generic AF, and it cannot depend on any setup function. So, as currently implemented, either AFs are generic, and any window setup is done post-facto via hooks or the like, or they are strongly coupled to the window they choose and generality is lost. Hope I made myself clear. Thanks for the effort in understanding my ramblings, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 13:52:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrZrg-0005mv-LH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:52:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56325) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZrd-0005lg-RI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:52:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZrd-0005ym-6E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:52:33 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:51494) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrZra-0005xu-66; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:52:30 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so3397143pba.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:52:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tsyhnfuXgd79F7sbDHoVZuos9PPwZgHdhmTW0PFncg0=; b=ECJ32lr2WDmfcTv5r/IIB0RnpYYZ+TIPBsuRa6kXCs5h3vrGe+uwTcmY6XN3TibaZ8 S1ZHybTEGxS7lcdIxtYjJZybBKMt6C0wFmOqkF+PZ1aVDh8+NroLk76/hWss68bq6GkX 6zuFm09OFWPLnrxU65CASD6Snp+8YsBlOFYys= Received: by 10.68.226.135 with SMTP id rs7mr35511874pbc.9.1327863149187; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:52:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:51:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:51:49 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released To: Christoph Scholtes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:52:34 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 19:41, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > No, --no-opt does not crash. Could it be related to the omit-frame-pointer problem, if you're using a 4.x gcc? Does it build with optimizations if you use -fno-omit-frame-pointer? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 14:06:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rra4l-0006w3-AJ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:06:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rra4j-0006vN-Jj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:06:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rra4i-0008NQ-Q0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:06:05 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:39188) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rra4g-0008Mk-4f; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:06:02 -0500 Received: by yenm10 with SMTP id m10so1599607yen.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:06:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PAP67AizLm0f+0QMOH297OlQbkDDmpU1AHPTb4xyj3A=; b=uKYfFKgknPPLER/WPG9xxq4LbBWiWa+vlwIlq3ioYjsgLEnfGtIstVrv2RtfymixtF uHNvXUwUlVoWrZQAEw9kpMvJmX3RwS7nM6rnCBqDBlDIL8t9RxtjpgOfkrIdA7uTyW0Q 4llOs1IF5KpwQbYlWoIhuyK7ByEr8t/INF1Gg= Received: by 10.236.78.231 with SMTP id g67mr5221820yhe.117.1327863961476; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b7sm26731972yhm.0.2012.01.29.11.06.00 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:06:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:05:59 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:06:06 -0000 On 1/29/2012 11:51 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > Could it be related to the omit-frame-pointer problem, if you're using > a 4.x gcc? Does it build with optimizations if you use > -fno-omit-frame-pointer? I tried that. Still crashes. Backtrace from optimized build with debug symbols: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x010719e8 in lookup_volume_info (root_dir=0x88fcdc "d:\\") at w32.c:2051 2051 if (xstrcasecmp (info->root_dir, root_dir) == 0) (gdb) bt #0 0x010719e8 in lookup_volume_info (root_dir=0x88fcdc "d:\\") at w32.c:2051 #1 GetCachedVolumeInformation (root_dir=0x88fcdc "d:\\") at w32.c:2114 #2 0x01071bf6 in get_volume_info ( name=0x2d543ee "/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/etc/charsets", pPath=0x88fe3c) at w32.c:2198 #3 0x01071cb4 in is_fat_volume ( name=0x2d543ec "d:/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/etc/charsets", pPath=0x88fe3c) at w32.c:2213 #4 0x01071d01 in map_w32_filename (pPath=0x0, name=0x2d543ec "d:/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/etc/charsets") at w32.c:2235 #5 map_w32_filename (name=, pPath=0x0) at w32.c:2220 #6 0x010723b5 in sys_access ( path=0x2d543ec "d:/devel/emacs/pretest/23.4rc1/emacs-23.4/etc/charsets", mode=0) at w32.c:2618 #7 0x010a7dad in init_charset () at charset.c:2384 #8 0x0117db15 in main (argc=, argv=0xd92e00) at emacs.c:1743 (gdb) From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 14:17:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RraFu-0004MD-64 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:17:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RraFo-0004L5-Sy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:17:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RraFn-0001Mv-JQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:17:32 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:61009) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RraFn-0001Mm-7R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:17:31 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYK00200QNXF900@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:17:27 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.102.195]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYK002CEQWYG200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:17:25 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:15:16 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released In-reply-to: <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Christoph Scholtes Message-id: <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:17:36 -0000 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:05:59 -0700 > From: Christoph Scholtes > CC: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 1/29/2012 11:51 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > Could it be related to the omit-frame-pointer problem, if you're using > > a 4.x gcc? Does it build with optimizations if you use > > -fno-omit-frame-pointer? > > I tried that. Still crashes. I just tried to build Emacs 23.4, and I'm sorry to say that neither the optimized build nor the unoptimized one crash for me. They both build just fine and come up without crashing. > Backtrace from optimized build with debug symbols: > > Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. > 0x010719e8 in lookup_volume_info (root_dir=0x88fcdc "d:\\") at w32.c:2051 > 2051 if (xstrcasecmp (info->root_dir, root_dir) == 0) What's the problem that causes the crash? Is `info' or `info->root_dir' a NULL pointer or something? If nothing else gives a clue, diff Emacs 23.4 sources against 23.3.90, and then apply the diffs one by one until you get the crash. This should pinpoint the change which causes this. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 15:36:44 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrbUS-0004ad-E7 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:36:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrbUO-0004YM-71 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:36:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrbUN-0002R0-DR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:36:40 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:35517) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrbUL-0002Qd-9k; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:36:37 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so3447775pba.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:36:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QN8epVj/TziHpdtxQgmPue2hMPSkTWH1eq2LmwQ8mEk=; b=tgeO2F3tpjUVj61p441FJGjiSMy5p9+NwK77vpVk/6TzjKbLYa2BWhLXhG5s3UbidG 5n4obidqOhD6zyIzEZEcrASavg8GozdjMeb1N2LYlAn4btsj8AGQqZmr7iZiPQw5GDxz MfeiLApAFNFG/uBaGwTVq9gUyCLFN6q7vImGs= Received: by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr29653467pbc.111.1327869396182; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:36:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:35:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Christoph Scholtes , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:36:42 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 20:15, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I just tried to build Emacs 23.4, and I'm sorry to say that neither > the optimized build nor the unoptimized one crash for me. =C2=A0They both > build just fine and come up without crashing. Same here. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 16:23:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrcE9-0001MM-NT for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:23:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33563) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcE6-0001MC-Rs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:23:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcE6-0002CZ-22 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:23:54 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:60846) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcE4-0002Bx-EL; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:23:52 -0500 Received: by ggnr5 with SMTP id r5so1010869ggn.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:23:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PtwQ76HV2rZzwAkB8VqCtNIjslE6x0EE/WQ0t7sIyU0=; b=nMIMAPJPEyQlofguShBjdN+RHce/0LhohZ1Gm5texG1rSRhFGueB0g8cFKuPSQBB4P jURQvlbRr9Z7ahiZ2xm4CGQazW2lO0w60y5FYKcFQmXZ/kDhBdr6GvjfSMpmpFifxvAh 5Qo/Ku53ex9W473lDDGX+QYEjXoEql50WajaI= Received: by 10.101.182.2 with SMTP id j2mr3401922anp.35.1327872231355; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b7sm27293904yhm.0.2012.01.29.13.23.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:23:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F25B8E3.3080800@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:23:47 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.161.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:23:55 -0000 On 1/29/2012 1:35 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 20:15, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> I just tried to build Emacs 23.4, and I'm sorry to say that neither >> the optimized build nor the unoptimized one crash for me. They both >> build just fine and come up without crashing. > > Same here. > > Juanma Confirmed. gcc 4.5.2 builds the 23.4 release fine. Builds with gcc 4.6.1 crash with optimizations enabled. I will build the release with gcc 4.5.2 then. I also will verify that the problem persists in the trunk build with gcc 4.6.1 and switch to 4.5.2 for the weekly builds also. I will add a note to INSTALL in the trunk, if applicable. As time permits I am going to try to figure out why it is crashing. Thanks guys. Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 16:37:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrcRj-00041x-F3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:37:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43757) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcRg-0003zQ-3E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:37:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcRf-0005wm-66 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:37:56 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:42691) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrcRd-0005vc-KI; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:37:53 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so3477564pba.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K1TUMpxZE76Qbvl9gmZQq+WmyEmKqjumpwUZSltZzh8=; b=i6xBjmFpvGYVE7Oq5ts8AVtlP/wP3anYKHfh8xDuL+JwcpgKX1SQ8GrYaUMfxRPqqw 1O6IkyYY3cvMSKblsmUQgQd8eUEzcyjGtNESqH1ZG80rXson0AAkVS44CRelN4d/x+Mb 88Sc5WPGxu3V9k46TEew1McSxVUTJ2yOz8gNo= Received: by 10.68.75.135 with SMTP id c7mr35777422pbw.43.1327873072201; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:37:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F25B8E3.3080800@gmail.com> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25B8E3.3080800@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:37:12 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released To: Christoph Scholtes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:37:57 -0000 On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 22:23, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > Confirmed. gcc 4.5.2 builds the 23.4 release fine. Builds with gcc 4.6.1 > crash with optimizations enabled. > > I will build the release with gcc 4.5.2 then. I also will verify that the > problem persists in the trunk build with gcc 4.6.1 and switch to 4.5.2 fo= r > the weekly builds also. I will add a note to INSTALL in the trunk, if > applicable. In the past, I've had assorted random crashes building with 4.5.X and 4.6.1; sometimes optimized builds, sometimes not. I've been using 4.6.2 for a while now and so far it works beautifully. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 18:50:23 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RreVr-00082T-OG for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:50:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33773) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RreVm-00081F-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:50:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RreVi-0003iT-LZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:50:18 -0500 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:35206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RreVe-0003hz-7p; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:50:10 -0500 Received: by ghrr18 with SMTP id r18so7617ghr.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:50:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y2z4/o5dFJ9QWIziHAKVMM4dRQ2FTnehTPsyss7Aaeo=; b=hk7oWYz30UZvMNjod3JtwnIj1ey0m1Xxrs3IGV/zbg1SmbGKGKeu/m7P91fYk7Mk6p Yplzd/xpwoqUg7GUtx9q5LWx3dYSD2tY5muBmlx248aFnMK7+v+yc05b8hymAbgJUv+H xdsA43I2LY9zBF4lG2D2GBKfHyIyUmcQz3Oig= Received: by 10.236.139.234 with SMTP id c70mr22972332yhj.33.1327881009487; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p63sm27854306yhj.22.2012.01.29.15.50.05 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:50:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F25DB2C.2040609@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:50:04 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25B8E3.3080800@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.169 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:50:22 -0000 On 1/29/2012 2:37 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > In the past, I've had assorted random crashes building with 4.5.X and > 4.6.1; sometimes optimized builds, sometimes not. 4.6.1 does not crash with the Emacs 24 pretest and the current trunk when building optimized. So it must be Emacs 23 code that makes it crash. > I've been using 4.6.2 for a while now and so far it works beautifully. Where did you get gcc 4.6.2? I installed the latest mingw and gcc --version says 4.6.1. Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 19:00:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rreg7-0002kE-St for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:00:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58293) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rreg4-0002iH-Sj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:00:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rreg0-0004wk-8V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:00:56 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:41969) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrefy-0004wY-IC; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:00:50 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so3544975pba.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:00:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NlG9HME82iWKGmu5Pq613lr2foYDyLGetMcPusA5lcM=; b=JPrNX6hYelNIPgC6G6h8BcfbiYWGukvAw8+PFSws2UzXyVy/izBig9smpe1wRgNWHA mi0tna8Qu7psRiroV7VaJaJ+dVla81L/e/qJpWDPIcIvWgXhNSUKWmX8H/+VenxxbDj8 ugJpPGjtG7u89AfHn6jl57cd7JpHjrP0VGXps= Received: by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr30912966pbc.111.1327881649202; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:00:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:00:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F25DB2C.2040609@gmail.com> References: <87pqe3ivaa.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25878B.3090800@gmail.com> <837h0aqs0u.fsf@gnu.org> <4F2592EC.6030108@gmail.com> <4F259897.1020602@gmail.com> <83d3a2s4l7.fsf@gnu.org> <4F25B8E3.3080800@gmail.com> <4F25DB2C.2040609@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:00:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23.4 released To: Christoph Scholtes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:00:57 -0000 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 00:50, Christoph Scholtes wrote: > Where did you get gcc 4.6.2? I installed the latest mingw and gcc --versi= on > says 4.6.1. http://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw/files/MinGW/Base/gcc/Version4/gcc-4.6= .2-1/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 19:45:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrfNJ-00081N-9L for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36415) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNH-00081C-2e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNG-0000mk-4l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:35 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:56139 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNG-0000mc-0S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB2A451C7FF; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:44:24 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Organization: JURTA References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 02:38:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:11:43 +0200") Message-ID: <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:45:36 -0000 > I am attaching a short patch which implements prefix arg support for > 'isearch-repeat-forward' and 'isearch-repeat-backward'. It does not contain > any visual hints or even hooks for visual support because it seems > worthwhile to test this functionality for a while before adding anything > "fancy" as you say. Negative arguments are supported in what seems to me a > reasonable way, though clearly not ideal for regex searches as point out. > > Please let me know if you think any more changes are required. It's not yet clear what is the most expected behavior. With your patch, typing `C-s a C-3 C-s C- C-3 C-s' returns the isearch point to the original position - this is good, thanks. But its behavior is not deterministic: it depends on the current search direction before calling these commands with a numeric argument. So e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-r C- C-3 C-s' (where `C-r' just switches the search direction) doesn't return it to the original position. Perhaps you need to check the current direction defined in the variable `isearch-forward' and take it into account. Another question is why e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-3 C-r' doesn't handle switching of search direction and does not return to the original position? In terms of implementation, the question is: why in `isearch-repeat-forward' and `isearch-repeat-backward' you don't add code that switches the current direction to the `(> arg 0)' code branch? From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 19:45:37 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrfNJ-00081Y-BZ for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36404) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNF-00081B-VY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNF-0000mV-3k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:33 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:56116 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfNE-0000mI-Va for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:45:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F07451C602; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:44:20 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: =?utf-8?B?xaB0xJtww6FuIE7Em21lYw==?= Subject: Re: Patch for lookaround assertion in regexp Organization: JURTA References: <009001ccd9c0$9bde09f0$d39a1dd0$@cfraizer.com> <874nvm1cnn.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 02:31:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874nvm1cnn.fsf@gmail.com> (=?utf-8?B?IsWgdMSbcMOhbiBOxJtt?= =?utf-8?B?ZWMiJ3M=?= message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:45:00 +0100") Message-ID: <878vkqgm0j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Andreas Schwab , Stefan Monnier , Tom X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:45:36 -0000 > OTOH using something like PCRE would finally fix the currently erroneous > implementation of classes like [:space:], which now is the same as \s-. > (And personally I would gladly forgo the syntax categories for standard > [:classes:], although I imagine the former might be used by the > font-locking or somewhere... I never felt the need for them.) `pcrecallout' could help to translate \c and \s to PCRE. >From `man pcrecallout(3)': PCRE provides a feature called "callout", which is a means of temporarily passing control to the caller of PCRE in the middle of pattern matching. The caller of PCRE provides an external function by putting its entry point in the global variable pcre_callout. By default, this variable contains NULL, which disables all calling out. Within a regular expression, (?C) indicates the points at which the external function is to be called. Different callout points can be identified by putting a number less than 256 after the letter C. For example, this pattern has two callout points: (?C1)abc(?C2)def From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 20:00:20 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrfbY-0000zm-7X for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:00:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51506) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfbV-0000zg-MD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:00:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfbU-0002HX-D1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:00:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:52322) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfbU-0002HT-AD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:00:16 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:49988 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfbS-0003Kb-TR; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:00:15 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> <4F257D1F.5050105@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:00 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:26:57 +0100") Message-ID: <87aa566m3z.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: Christoph Scholtes , Ted Zlatanov , Eli Zaretskii , Emacs-Devel devel X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:00:18 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > The main argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects > and maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building > and distributing it. Agreed. I think it is sufficient to have a URL to the GnuTLS binaries (and sources!). If the worry is that Windows users won't see that URL, we can put the notice somewhere on our webpage next to the download link, and/or in a "read me first" file on the FTP site. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 20:09:39 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrfkZ-0001jq-CC for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:09:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58998) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfkW-0001jj-Te for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:09:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfkU-00036n-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:09:36 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:39084) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrfkT-00036j-Vm; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:09:34 -0500 Received: by yenm10 with SMTP id m10so1668840yen.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:09:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+KfyZnioavcp5ANwnuqvF7qyaUmmXQn9KGKf1Dqwt68=; b=S3iqFfOfFIpcdJ8BQh3yw5Yo+jKdIZeXYwekixSi3aj131qiajgnsh1IB6XrrgNS6F 0AyHWkzILBGGEXoYIlSTeUDdLhrnignsLO0YB7VuJQXjBlJcLTvziSk47oClh1ryHv05 jKW+n//PnkS0hco+Jb84nRRhcUQcg75KO1mcY= Received: by 10.236.179.67 with SMTP id g43mr12431462yhm.66.1327885773166; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h20sm41655722ang.7.2012.01.29.17.09.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:09:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F25EDC9.6040104@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:09:29 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel , help-emacs-windows@gnu.org Subject: Emacs 23.4 Windows Binaries published Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:09:38 -0000 The Emacs 23.4 Windows Binaries have been published in http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 21:02:31 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrgZj-0006md-1i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:02:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36850) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrgZf-0006lV-TF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:02:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrgZe-000062-QQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:02:27 -0500 Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:54566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrgZe-00005y-Kv; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:02:26 -0500 Received: by ghrr18 with SMTP id r18so37826ghr.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:02:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U3PFM11uxoW7VoFnKG060a0s4Hi6QQRLvk47pQXmdf0=; b=f1gNe1ihWG49gmby2B4nQUIBU4dM8EC3OQwDvlSugnL919sBcrRASZ51E+3jV54KT+ pekd+e5jtANlgFxkYvIxYA5KCEPAUdvLpGtpHtPRdz2mXHDP0gT2VPrtrUyYilYxzXAj bqXYkyGsy+aLroImsivekeBUVZBruZXSR7ncg= Received: by 10.236.79.37 with SMTP id h25mr22431212yhe.76.1327888945971; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b4sm41963068and.18.2012.01.29.18.02.24 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:02:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:02:23 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emacs-Devel devel , help-emacs-windows@gnu.org Subject: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 02:02:29 -0000 The Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries have been published in http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/ The binaries were built using the following libraries: giflib-4.1.4-1 gnutls-3.0.9 jpeg-6b-4 libXpm-3.5.8 libpng-1.4.3-1 tiff-3.8.2-1 zlib-1.2.5-2 Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at this location: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ See the file included README.W32 file for more information on how to obtain other binaries necessary to make use of certain Emacs features. Please report any bugs that you come across via M-x report-emacs-bugs, or email bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org. For questions, email emacs-devel@gnu.org. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 29 23:55:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrjHO-0003sm-3i for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:55:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36558) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrjHM-0003sf-2W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:55:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrjHL-0004ZB-1R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:55:44 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:37190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrjHK-0004Z4-RD; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:55:43 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0U4tee9016234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:55:41 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0U4tevI024748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:55:40 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0U4tdK0020290; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:55:39 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.41.108) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:55:39 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Christoph Scholtes'" , "'Emacs-Devel devel'" , References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:55:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Acze8zx6r7Kamw+6SOab6s+Uzsan7QAF//dg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4F2622CD.0074,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:55:45 -0000 > The Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries have been published in > http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/ > > The binaries were built using the following libraries: > giflib-4.1.4-1 > gnutls-3.0.9 > jpeg-6b-4 > libXpm-3.5.8 > libpng-1.4.3-1 > tiff-3.8.2-1 > zlib-1.2.5-2 > > Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at this location: > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? How does it relate to Emacs? From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 00:33:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrjrh-0006l5-RH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:33:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:58581) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrjre-0006ky-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:33:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrjrd-0000V9-83 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:33:14 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:62724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrjrd-0000V4-2a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:33:13 -0500 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32so2615694qad.0 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:33:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wYrIJMphLZOkkhe9GelVfJzN3TfOpoXVFSLAZr+JVUg=; b=FGCZbFkFOWjS6C/WfFST2vidGc0Yu2VKz20XIPSDlNF2o6NAjEcCtbtZ9RDhwJPaYd 1jWTK0ywFc4VgGIdHv89Kn/F1YFgKAn3ak69DjPpbEeuxQs4shqTiMVwlYYEKN/Yu71X 8XzCzPP3BTGCvozy4J0tJ0w4TIitWotKmJdp8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.78.206 with SMTP id m14mr19345775qak.18.1327901592375; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:33:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.110.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:33:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:33:12 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Emacs crashed on OS X now what? From: Le Wang To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3074d3beb5d32504b7b82ec2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:33:16 -0000 --20cf3074d3beb5d32504b7b82ec2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, My Emacs (OSX Lion, Emacss 24, I built myself a few days old) has crashed. I've put the gdb "where" output here: https://gist.github.com/1702723 Is there something else I can do to help debug the issue? -- Le --20cf3074d3beb5d32504b7b82ec2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

My Emacs (OSX Lion, Emacss 24, I built myself a few days old) ha= s crashed.=A0 I've put the gdb "where" output here: https://gist.github.com/1702723
Is there something else I can do to help debug the issue?
=
--
Le
--20cf3074d3beb5d32504b7b82ec2-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 04:53:47 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrnvn-0002ND-0H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:53:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43589) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrnvf-0002N5-6e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:53:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrnva-0001Zn-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:53:39 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:52090) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrnva-0001Zj-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:53:34 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so4787791obb.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:53:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=HWwtQWDz6bw43mMtMcIhLiK1QhrMh+NijGgOg6gteQM=; b=iJwc7gI3tjAtGUaWcg5HOwqwL77SkNvwTI4qHp5H8FO+ewoNAPzPMQF3ffn11K1m/n l+gECdv6zABAHZj1hpdOXvPP6MXbfnCsiUu3lLVvLjxkbiWjJLkmhvxmEpRxO0Ue4scm Zrnj9m/kS6Gyqs9Ny4pGZ2tNNLJGPE18ewVEQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.41.5 with SMTP id b5mr27306953obl.79.1327917213654; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.242.41 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:53:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:53:33 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov From: Gideon Stupp To: Juri Linkov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0445179bcf9dd304b7bbd180 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:53:45 -0000 --f46d0445179bcf9dd304b7bbd180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Juri Linkov wrote: > > I am attaching a short patch which implements prefix arg support for > > 'isearch-repeat-forward' and 'isearch-repeat-backward'. It does not > contain > > any visual hints or even hooks for visual support because it seems > > worthwhile to test this functionality for a while before adding anything > > "fancy" as you say. Negative arguments are supported in what seems to > me a > > reasonable way, though clearly not ideal for regex searches as point out. > > > > Please let me know if you think any more changes are required. > > It's not yet clear what is the most expected behavior. > > With your patch, typing `C-s a C-3 C-s C- C-3 C-s' returns the isearch > point > to the original position - this is good, thanks. > > But its behavior is not deterministic: it depends on the current search > direction before calling these commands with a numeric argument. > So e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-r C- C-3 C-s' (where `C-r' just switches > the search direction) doesn't return it to the original position. > Perhaps you need to check the current direction defined in the variable > `isearch-forward' and take it into account. > > This is bug; I did not think of this scenario. Thanks for pointing it out. > Another question is why e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-3 C-r' doesn't handle > switching of search direction and does not return to the original position? > In terms of implementation, the question is: why in > `isearch-repeat-forward' and `isearch-repeat-backward' you don't add code > that switches the current direction to the `(> arg 0)' code branch? > I did not add code that switches the current direction in the (> arg 0) case for compatibility reasons; I wanted C-3 C-s to behave exactly like C-s C-s C-s. But I do see your point. So how about the following behavior (for brevity I will describe only isearch-repeat-forward): (1) if you use isearch-repeat-forward then at the end of the operation you must be in a search-forward state; (2) the numerical value decides how many searches are done and (3) the sign defines the direction. More specifically isearch-repeat-forward -| the usual "interactive" mode. C-0 isearch-repeat-forward -| if in backward search switch to forward search but don't do any actual search, otherwise don't do anything. C- isearch-repeat-forward -| switch to forward search (if necessary) and search times forward. C-u isearch-repeat-forward -| like C-4 C-- C- isearch-repreat-forward -| go back times of search but make sure to finish in forward-search state. C-- isearch-repeat-forward -| like C- C-1 isearch-repeat-forward. Thanks, Gideon. --f46d0445179bcf9dd304b7bbd180 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at= 2:38 AM, Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> wrote:
> I am attaching a short patch which implements prefix= arg support for
> 'isearch-repeat-forward' and 'isearch-repeat-backward'= . It does not contain
> any visual hints or even hooks for visual support because it seems
> worthwhile to test this functionality for a while before adding anythi= ng
> "fancy" as you say. =A0Negative arguments are supported in w= hat seems to me a
> reasonable way, though clearly not ideal for regex searches as point o= ut.
>
> Please let me know if you think any more changes are required.

It's not yet clear what is the most expected behavior.

With your patch, typing `C-s a C-3 C-s C- C-3 C-s' returns the isearch = point
to the original position - this is good, thanks.

But its behavior is not deterministic: it depends on the current search
direction before calling these commands with a numeric argument.
So e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-r C- C-3 C-s' (where `C-r' just switches the search direction) doesn't return it to the original position.
Perhaps you need to check the current direction defined in the variable
`isearch-forward' and take it into account.

This is bug; I did not think of this scenario. Thanks= for pointing it out.
=A0
Another question is why e.g. `C-s a C-3 C-s C-3 C-r' doesn't handle=
switching of search direction and does not return to the original position?=
In terms of implementation, the question is: why in
`isearch-repeat-forward' and `isearch-repeat-backward' you don'= t add code
that switches the current direction to the `(> arg 0)' code branch?<= br>

I did not add code that switches the current directi= on in the (> arg 0) case for compatibility reasons; I wanted C-3 C-s to = behave exactly like C-s C-s C-s.
But I do see your point. So how about t= he following behavior (for brevity I will describe only isearch-repeat-forw= ard):=A0 (1) if you use isearch-repeat-forward then at the end of the opera= tion you must be in a search-forward state; (2) the numerical value decides= how many searches are done and (3) the sign defines the direction. More sp= ecifically

isearch-repeat-forward=A0=A0 -|=A0 the usual "interactive" mo= de.

C-0 isearch-repeat-forward -|=A0 if in backward search switch to= forward search but don't do any actual search, otherwise don't do = anything.
C-<number> isearch-repeat-forward -| switch to forward search (if nec= essary) and search <number> times forward.
C-u isearch-repeat-forw= ard=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -| like C-4

C-- C-<num= ber> isearch-repreat-forward -| go back <number> times of search b= ut make sure to finish in forward-search state.
C-- isearch-repeat-forward=A0 -|=A0 like C- C-1 isearch-repeat-forward.
=
Thanks, Gideon.






--f46d0445179bcf9dd304b7bbd180-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 05:23:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RroOF-0005dp-SF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:23:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42861) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RroO8-0005dg-I3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:23:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RroO6-0005II-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:23:04 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:57279) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RroO6-0005ID-ES for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:23:02 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jan 2012 10:22:58 -0000 Received: from 62-47-49-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.49.102]) [62.47.49.102] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 30 Jan 2012 11:22:58 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+O4TceyXaOSYGgx4ttiwHq9phX5Kc95skrLePTqP QozWD2zkymiBJu Message-ID: <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:21:49 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:23:10 -0000 > As I said, weak dedication fails for the "(switch-to-buffer next nil > t)" call in bs-cycle-next. I forgot that `switch-to-buffer' has ((eq (window-dedicated-p) t) Actually `bs-cycle-next' should use `pop-to-buffer-same-window'. I'm still convinced that calling `switch-to-buffer' from Elisp is harmful. OTOH I don't understand: You invoke bs from the INF window and get surprised that it wants to switch to another buffer there? But this is inherently what you asked it to do, so the problem is more general. > I'd like a style of dedication that said > "that window can only display a buffer from THIS list, and nothing > else". That's what side windows try to tackle (unless the user explicitly overrides it by interactively calling `switch-to-buffer' in such a window). Alternatively, one could make `set-window-dedicated-p' accept a list of names of buffers that may replace the one currently shown in the corresponding window. > In my example, jb-inferior is an AF, to be used from > display-buffer-alist. But my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window is not > an AF, it's a user command that I invoke through a keybinding to > create INF and display the inferior buffer. It relies on jb-inferior > being set up in display-buffer-alist. If jb-setup could be done via a > hook (or any other suitable method), > my-create-inferior-buffer-and-window wouldn't be required at all. I still don't understand why `jb-inferior' should not call `jb-setup'. After all there could be some setup specific to INF windows. > Please, forget INF/SUP. Suppose I do "M-x list-buffers", and I've > customized display-buffer-alist for the "*Buffer List*" buffer, using > only standard AFs (the ones supplied with Emacs right now). How do I, > additionally, run a setup function to modify the window chosen by the > display-buffer call in list-buffers? Currently, I have to use window > hooks, or wrap list-buffers in a custom user command, or advice it. > (In fact, I use lot of advices just to run fit-window-to-buffer, which > is another example of the same problem.) And I'm still not sure whether this should be done in a hook. The fact that we have to resort to a hook means the alist concept sucks. In particular, because the hook function would have to discriminate, probably based on the name of the window's buffer, how to proceed. >> Do you mean that jb-inferior cannot call `display-buffer-pop-up-window' >> or that it's clumsy to do that? > > I mean that I'm being forced to decide in jb-inferior things that do > not really concern jb-inferior. AFs should ideally be able to either > choose and return a window, or return nil and pass the work to the > rest of AFs according to the user setup. If the current design forces > me to write custom AFs that always find and return a window, by hook > or by crook, OK, I can do that, but that's working against the spirit > of the feature, IMHO. Agreed. >> What about people who want to accomplish the necessary functionality via >> the customization interface? > > Cannot answer that, as I try to avoid the customization interface as > much as possible. I think that it should be possible to set up most properties of the window used (like minimum or ideal size, fixed-sizeness, dedicatedness to name a few) via `display-buffer-alist'. > The code for quit-window does: > > ((and (not prev-buffer) > (memq (nth 1 quit-restore) '(window frame)) > (eq (nth 3 quit-restore) buffer) > ;; Delete WINDOW if possible. > (window--delete window nil kill)) > > which doesn't kill if there's a previous buffer. And the buffer must be still the same too. Maybe `quit-window' should always delete the window when it's dedicated. But maybe you should rather use C-x 0 to get rid of a window for sure ;-) > But even doing > > (let ((w (get-buffer-window buffer)) > (window-size-fixed nil)) > (display-buffer-record-window 'window w buffer) > (set-window-prev-buffers w nil) > (window-resize w (- my-inferior-window-max-height > (window-total-height w)))) > > when I set up the window, quit-window still does not kill it. That would be a bug. If I do (progn (display-buffer-record-window 'window nil (window-buffer)) (set-window-prev-buffers nil nil)) in an arbitrary window, `quit-window' deletes it if there are other windows around. > My setup is a bit complex; I'll try to isolate a test case and file a bug. Please do. >> I'm by no means against a `display-buffer-hook'. > > Note that my preferred fix is not a hook variable, but a hook action. What is a "hook action"? Do you mean that the function called should be specified via `display-buffer-alist'? >> (defun jb-inferior (buffer alist) >> (let ((window (window-with-parameter 'inferior-only))) >> (if window >> (set-window-buffer window buffer) >> (setq window (display-buffer-pop-up-window buffer alist))) >> (display-buffer-record-window 'window window buffer) >> (jb-setup window) >> window)) > > There are two reasons against that: > > 1) I'd prefer not to couple jb-inferior to > `display-buffer-pop-up-window'. As a principle, I don't think AFs > should call other AFs if possible. That's something for > display-buffer-alist and the other user-configurable options to > decide. I wouldn't be too strict about this. > 2) Because that makes jb-inferior depend on jb-setup, so any > generality is lost. Of course my jb-inferior example is anything but > generic (I said as much). But if I write a new AF > `display-buffer-choose-window-with-predicate', which understands > actions like `(predicate . (lambda (w) (>= (window-body-height w) > 10)))', that's a completely generic AF, and it cannot depend on any > setup function. Why would calling `jb-setup' mean that `jb-inferior' _depends_ on it? Would this mean that when I call `jb-setup' from `display-buffer-hook' displaying a buffer depends on `jb-setup'? So far I thought that `jb-setup' would only do some additional adjustments after a suitable window has been found. If it fails, the window is still around and returned. > So, as currently implemented, either AFs are generic, and any window What does "generic" stand for in this context? > setup is done post-facto via hooks or the like, or they are strongly > coupled to the window they choose and generality is lost. Do you mean that we should avoid here to invoke `jb-setup' twice - once directly in an AF like `jb-inferior' and once via a hook? But this should be addressed by the coder of `jb-inferior'. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 05:54:02 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rros6-00035B-F5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:54:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42868) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrorz-00034e-NV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:54:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rroru-0001Ih-6h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:53:55 -0500 Received: from snapmx1.ironport.snap.net.nz ([202.37.100.100]:8195) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrort-0001Hd-R8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:53:50 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlQPAFh1Jk9vRfcc/2dsb2JhbABDKIJ7gWipTYJ5BSNWNQImAlmvM5EngS+HDgEJBwELCQECAwQKAgIDBwIEBQEDAgMEFQIBAgGCeQMBBhIJAgEBCAICXhE+ggaBFgSVGoVWjRE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,591,1320577200"; d="scan'208";a="94292247" Received: from rupert.snap.net.nz ([202.37.100.140]) by smtp1.ironport.snap.net.nz with ESMTP; 30 Jan 2012 23:53:43 +1300 X-Sender-IP: 111.69.247.28 X-Sender-IP: 111.69.247.28 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (28.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz [111.69.247.28]) by rupert.snap.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5575B1FD43; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:53:43 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. From: Nick Roberts To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com In-Reply-To: 1327387607.1742.21.camel@garuda3.sysenter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:17:42 +1300 Message-ID: <1327828662.12356.4.camel@totara.tehura.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.30.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 202.37.100.100 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:54:01 -0000 That looks fine but would it be better to place the overlay arrow further down the window so that the user can see previous instructions? e.g, "-data-disassemble -s \"$pc - 80\" -e \"$pc + 80\" -- 0" Nick From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 07:49:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrqfa-0005Wd-Hp for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:49:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42912) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqfS-0005V4-Q1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:49:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqfM-0001xv-PS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:49:06 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:63852) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqfM-0001xp-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:49:00 -0500 Received: by dake40 with SMTP id e40so3820462dak.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:48:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3gp9Pif2xpYbcp0gXWqJM3wEYpjdMg4aA3OJL9KETi8=; b=oiuirE0M21THXNXqvZevAGf0NJmNKdRBN6sUWQ13/g8q3ELt6r4xKDdJZKkSrCImgO fTCMgmX4xiCpQggQNgpPens6iMKSfAwTfXMilS+OBR9ra95J+nJeOXBFfUjXb49+66Ej XZku1/XpzNuNu1hzcflujZ/qs9W23ZnqHLQ2E= Received: by 10.68.75.199 with SMTP id e7mr41820473pbw.128.1327927739243; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:48:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:48:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:48:19 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions To: martin rudalics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:49:12 -0000 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:21, martin rudalics wrote: > Actually `bs-cycle-next' should use `pop-to-buffer-same-window'. Perhaps. But we've already gone through a few iterations of what bs-cycle-next should call ;-) > OTOH I don't understand: You invoke bs from the INF window and get > surprised that it wants to switch to another buffer there? In that particular case, I'm not complaining about what bs-cycle-next does. If I invoke bs-cycle-next in INF, it's only by mistake (but a frequent one, because I use b-c-n all the time). As it is a mistake that annoys me, I make INF strongly dedicated to avoid it. I would prefer to make it softly dedicated, but that does not work currently. > That's what side windows try to tackle (unless the user explicitly > overrides it by interactively calling `switch-to-buffer' in such a > window). Aha, I see. > Alternatively, one could make `set-window-dedicated-p' accept > a list of names of buffers that may replace the one currently shown in > the corresponding window. Well, that would help me, though I don't know if it is a very common need. Dedicated windows do not seem to get much use yet in user code. > I still don't understand why `jb-inferior' should not call `jb-setup'. > After all there could be some setup specific to INF windows. Because I did a poor job of explaining myself. I should not have used my own case as an example. In my .emacs, jb-inferior calls jb-setup. They are strongly coupled. That has forced me to *write* jb-inferior, which is an AF for creating and setting up INF. I would have preferred to write display-buffer-choose-window-with-parameter (an AF to choose a window according to some window parameter, passed through the action list), and then use that to implement my SUP/INF setup. Then, after 24.1, I would surely suggest that d-b-c-w-w-p could be a worthy addition to window.el. jb-inferior isn't ;-) > And I'm still not sure whether this should be done in a hook. =C2=A0The f= act > that we have to resort to a hook means the alist concept sucks. I'm not enamoured of the hook idea. I just happen to think that being forced to advise list-buffers is even worse. But you're the expert, I trust you to find a better mechanism ;-) >=C2=A0In > particular, because the hook function would have to discriminate, > probably based on the name of the window's buffer, how to proceed. Yes. That's why I talked about "hook actions". > I think that it should be possible to set up most properties of the > window used (like minimum or ideal size, fixed-sizeness, dedicatedness > to name a few) via `display-buffer-alist'. That would be very nice. > And the buffer must be still the same too. =C2=A0Maybe `quit-window' shou= ld > always delete the window when it's dedicated. That would work for me, but I'm not sure is the best answer. > =C2=A0But maybe you should > rather use C-x 0 to get rid of a window for sure ;-) Well, yes. I don't do that, because I use a single keybinding () that subsumes all this: If I'm in SUP and there's no INF, create INF. If I'm in SUP and there's an INF, switch to INF; and if I'm in INF, kill it, bury the buffer and get back to SUP. Of course the function bound to does use delete-window (or, in fact, window--delete). My comment was about a case where quit-window does not do what I expect. However: > That would be a bug. =C2=A0If I do > > (progn > =C2=A0(display-buffer-record-window 'window nil (window-buffer)) > =C2=A0(set-window-prev-buffers nil nil)) > > in an arbitrary window, `quit-window' deletes it if there are other > windows around. ...perhaps I was sleeping the last time I tried it, because now it works. > What is a "hook action"? =C2=A0Do you mean that the function called shoul= d be > specified via `display-buffer-alist'? Yes. >> 1) I'd prefer not to couple jb-inferior to >> `display-buffer-pop-up-window'. As a principle, I don't think AFs >> should call other AFs if possible. That's something for >> display-buffer-alist and the other user-configurable options to >> decide. > > I wouldn't be too strict about this. Not too strict, but it's preferable IMO. > Why would calling `jb-setup' mean that `jb-inferior' _depends_ on it? Just that it makes harder to use jb-inferior for things other than SUP/INF. > Would this mean that when I call `jb-setup' from `display-buffer-hook' > displaying a buffer depends on `jb-setup'? No, but it sets the window height and its dedicatedness. It's un-useful, and even harmful, if I ever want to use it for anything else. Generality is lost. >> So, as currently implemented, either AFs are generic, and any window > > What does "generic" stand for in this context? Useful to other people. Not tied to one user's specific details of implementation. Like d-b-(pop-up|reuse|same|use-some)-window and friends. > Do you mean that we should avoid here to invoke `jb-setup' twice - once > directly in an AF like `jb-inferior' and once via a hook? =C2=A0But this > should be addressed by the coder of `jb-inferior'. That's what I'm trying to do in this discussion: find a way to run it once, *after* the window is chosen and set-window-buffer called. In my original message, I listed the ways I know to make that happen (hooks, advices, a wrapper function, etc.). (Note that I already have implemented a strongly coupled jb-inferior/jb-setup, so this is not about how to fix my .emacs; it's about how to make AFs, and action lists, more useful and flexible.) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 07:54:15 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrqkR-0007GD-QM for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:54:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36207) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqkL-0007Fu-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:54:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqkG-0002nT-40 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:54:09 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:49878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqkF-0002n9-SK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:54:04 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrqk9-0006W5-LN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:57 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:57 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:57 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:53:50 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87wr894aht.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> <4F257D1F.5050105@gmail.com> <87aa566m3z.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Lz5SgXEuOkA9MATAlqExb7ZZMyM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:54:13 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:00 +0800 Chong Yidong wrote: CY> Juanma Barranquero writes: >> The main argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects >> and maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building >> and distributing it. CY> Agreed. I think it is sufficient to have a URL to the GnuTLS binaries CY> (and sources!). If the worry is that Windows users won't see that URL, CY> we can put the notice somewhere on our webpage next to the download CY> link, and/or in a "read me first" file on the FTP site. That would be wonderful. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 07:59:51 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrqpr-0000v5-Qh for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49483) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrqpo-0000uz-P3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrqpn-0003Uv-Op for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:48 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:45043) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrqpn-0003Uq-IE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:47 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrqpg-0001Ae-4G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:40 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:40 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:40 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:26 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 10 Message-ID: <87sjix4a8h.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87ipjy6z0j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83zkdaz26s.fsf@gnu.org> <8739b26ume.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83ty3iywh3.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwf13zly.fsf@lifelogs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:TCLoHdaFG0QzIvf7c3DeKc/A82w= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:59:49 -0000 On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:30:50 +0100 Juanma Barranquero wrote: JB> If you can set a bot to build the DLLs, the GnuTLS project surely JB> could, too. And it would be *their* binaries. You can't get more JB> official than that. Yes, I made a mistake having this discussion on emacs-devel. Sorry about the noise. I'll move it to the GnuTLS dev list. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 08:07:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrqxV-0002q0-PR for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:07:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqxO-0002ps-Jb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:07:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqxN-0005IL-MI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:07:38 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:44105) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqxN-0005IG-FW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:07:37 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RrqxM-0004ou-C3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:07:36 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:07:36 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:07:36 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:07:28 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Lines: 19 Message-ID: <87obtl49v3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:sxrqaSILdlTPyckE2Up9LoXOuak= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:07:44 -0000 On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:00:30 -0700 Christoph Scholtes wrote: CS> Regarding shipping Emacs with the GnuTLS binaries, I am generally not CS> opposed to doing that. But what about jpeg, gif, tiff support? I agree CS> with Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary CS> distribution_. This whole model does not fit the expectations in the CS> Windows world. In 2012, Windows users expect an "Emacs for Windows" CS> with all (binary) batteries included, an installer/uninstaller, CS> etc. We don't supply that and unless somebody steps up and does the CS> work necessary we won't. Whether politically speaking we should is CS> another question. I will work on a W32 Emacs installer shell, wrapping your latest binaries and the other libraries' binaries, with other volunteers outside the emacs-devel scope, once I have GnuTLS builds automated. At that point it will probably automatically build the other libraries as well. Thanks for your feedback. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 08:18:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrr8L-0005rw-2H for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:18:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46766) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrr8F-0005py-6X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:18:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrr88-0006iH-NX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:18:50 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:34686) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrr88-0006hw-E9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:18:44 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so4066596pba.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:18:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YXNwGDoArQ8boK6hBVFvifZVBGJ/6mIprnkbnDY8Jxw=; b=AJfHISc78XOjSikDnqI2VNrlYimaZaXui4kTisEE7ZBTQuXzn0pYRY1XTN3s09hkwd v9505F9e0pDCU89cQEtipAlvB/fRS6TmuVf2cNu6NzimzUw2lF85IWN3EpBekQYP6Mpu Jw/XrWHgz0bWvAFGw0MljErDgHLql+2W1BJ6k= Received: by 10.68.226.135 with SMTP id rs7mr42603630pbc.9.1327929523207; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:18:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:18:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87obtl49v3.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <84boromyob.fsf@tum.de> <84ipknew07.fsf@tum.de> <87ipjzs512.fsf@gnus.org> <87wr8e8o58.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <4F256D1E.4070902@gmail.com> <87obtl49v3.fsf@lifelogs.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:18:03 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries To: Emacs developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:18:55 -0000 2012/1/30 Ted Zlatanov : > I will work on a W32 Emacs installer shell, wrapping your latest > binaries and the other libraries' binaries, with other volunteers > outside the emacs-devel scope I would be glad to help. > At > that point it will probably automatically build the other libraries as > well. If that project also makes availables the other libraries' binaries to download (not just as part of an installer), that would be swell. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 10:10:05 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrsrt-0004Cb-6u for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:10:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54736) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrsrh-0004B8-3O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:10:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrsrb-0000w3-Ts for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:09:53 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:43036) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrsrb-0000vw-Rd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:09:47 -0500 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32so2914172qad.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mroUbeo+31PIg0oZ/o5PJiO7XmjyfGHA6oW3d49UbDc=; b=hC/32/EwbsOu/Xscp1HjL/FTZYbNXbhAIN/KQnfKm7hZcr65F8jHzxQ19It8FSM8Zb 0sCDfoylBhY8YltvOVKdk5LJ7KzO1rqr0uARZlsa1kCWZ7YO6f2qcDgGNfhGJ35fmhe4 SHdpADAIRQ97DQO8MJM5ISvHZFi7UQiRqWEvo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.177.68 with SMTP id bh4mr685711qab.2.1327936187162; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.24.8 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:09:47 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: lexical-let cause memory leaks? From: =?UTF-8?B?0JrQvtC90YHRgtCw0L3RgtC40L0g0JrRg9C70LjQutC+0LI=?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30334dd5b85fa904b7c03c31 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:10:04 -0000 --20cf30334dd5b85fa904b7c03c31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Original: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9062580/when-does-emacs-lisps-lexical-let-leak-memory So... Is it true, that "variables bound with lexical-let are never released, even if they are never used"? And if so, may it be fixed? --20cf30334dd5b85fa904b7c03c31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Original: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9062= 580/when-does-emacs-lisps-lexical-let-leak-memory
So... Is it true,= that "variables bound with lexical-let are n= ever released, even if they are never used"?
And if so, may it be fixed?
--20cf30334dd5b85fa904b7c03c31-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 12:50:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrvMl-0004SU-Ks for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50866) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrvMg-0004PG-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrvMd-0007Zg-Ay for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:01 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54069) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrvMc-0007Wh-Sv; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:49:59 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYM00I00H7Y3400@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:49:25 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.57.191]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYM00IAOHIC1Y20@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:49:25 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:47:24 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:50:06 -0000 > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:55:30 -0800 > > > The Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries have been published in > > http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/ > > > > The binaries were built using the following libraries: > > giflib-4.1.4-1 > > gnutls-3.0.9 > > jpeg-6b-4 > > libXpm-3.5.8 > > libpng-1.4.3-1 > > tiff-3.8.2-1 > > zlib-1.2.5-2 > > > > Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at this location: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why might an Emacs user > want to obtain a binary for it? How does it relate to Emacs? It's an email authentication package. See the node "Authentication" in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 13:14:11 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrvk3-0001gS-Tg for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:14:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33607) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvjv-0001cQ-Kh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:14:09 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvjp-0007xD-Oj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:14:03 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:42389) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvjp-0007wA-BN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:13:57 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Jan 2012 18:13:54 -0000 Received: from 62-47-55-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.55.78]) [62.47.55.78] by mail.gmx.net (mp070) with SMTP; 30 Jan 2012 19:13:54 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/LLzUfqQDLf2ezQo2iusmTQxj6FTHhtao/pUReGO T6W6NTou6zS0t8 Message-ID: <4F26DD9D.1080101@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:12:45 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:14:09 -0000 > In that particular case, I'm not complaining about what bs-cycle-next > does. If I invoke bs-cycle-next in INF, it's only by mistake (but a > frequent one, because I use b-c-n all the time). As it is a mistake > that annoys me, I make INF strongly dedicated to avoid it. I would > prefer to make it softly dedicated, but that does not work currently. Another possibility would be to give the window a `no-switch-to-buffer' dedicated value and have `switch-to-buffer' / `display-buffer' observe that. > I would have preferred > to write display-buffer-choose-window-with-parameter (an AF to choose > a window according to some window parameter, passed through the action > list), and then use that to implement my SUP/INF setup. Then, after > 24.1, I would surely suggest that d-b-c-w-w-p could be a worthy > addition to window.el. jb-inferior isn't ;-) Sounds reasonable. Maybe a `display-buffer-in-window-with-predicate' would cover this. >> And the buffer must be still the same too. Maybe `quit-window' should >> always delete the window if it's dedicated. > > That would work for me, but I'm not sure is the best answer. `bury-buffer' does it. > Well, yes. I don't do that, because I use a single keybinding () > that subsumes all this: If I'm in SUP and there's no INF, create INF. > If I'm in SUP and there's an INF, switch to INF; and if I'm in INF, > kill it, bury the buffer and get back to SUP. Of course the function > bound to does use delete-window (or, in fact, window--delete). Where do you call `quit-window' here? Or did you want to call it here? >> What is a "hook action"? Do you mean that the function called should be >> specified via `display-buffer-alist'? > > Yes. It would be easy to do that. We would only have to decide on a name. >> Why would calling `jb-setup' mean that `jb-inferior' _depends_ on it? > > Just that it makes harder to use jb-inferior for things other than SUP/INF. And I thought that `jb-setup' would be the more general function. >> Do you mean that we should avoid here to invoke `jb-setup' twice - once >> directly in an AF like `jb-inferior' and once via a hook? But this >> should be addressed by the coder of `jb-inferior'. > > That's what I'm trying to do in this discussion: find a way to run it > once, *after* the window is chosen and set-window-buffer called. In my > original message, I listed the ways I know to make that happen (hooks, > advices, a wrapper function, etc.). IIUC we have three reasonable ways to do it: (1) Put all the things we want (like desired window size, dedicatedness, ...) into `display-buffer-alist'. That's what my original idea was and it's downside is that it makes `display-buffer-alist' bloated - we would have to put all this into its documentation. (2) Provide some sort of a hook within `display-buffer-alist'. That's easy to document and allows to call a function only for buffers that want it. The downside of this is that a user has to replicate it for each and every alist entry since entries are not merged. (3) Provide a standard `display-buffer-functions' hook. This means that the function called there has to handle every possible detail based on the window and the buffer's name. > (Note that I already have implemented a strongly coupled > jb-inferior/jb-setup, so this is not about how to fix my .emacs; it's > about how to make AFs, and action lists, more useful and flexible.) Sure. But you would have to test the usability of this first. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 13:18:17 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrvo1-0002qv-LH for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:18:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvnt-0002ow-W1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:18:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvns-0001nt-Vh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:18:09 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:42824) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrvnm-0001kf-Qw; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:18:02 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0UII0Ft029985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:18:01 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0UIHxT3023941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:18:00 GMT Received: from abhmt109.oracle.com (abhmt109.oracle.com [141.146.116.61]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0UIHwPB016853; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:17:59 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:17:58 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: [h-e-w] Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:17:57 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Aczfd6NBa9wca+eBQIm+gOx5oJ07BAAAyOVg In-Reply-To: <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4F26DED9.007F,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:18:15 -0000 > > > Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at > > > this location: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why > > might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? > > How does it relate to Emacs? > > It's an email authentication package. See the node "Authentication" > in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. The point was for you to say that _in the announcement email_. It doesn't make much sense, in an email about "Pretest Windows Binaries", to provide a link to something that is separate and different from "Pretest Windows Binaries", without saying anything about what that link is for. Sure, users can always google "GnuTLS", but they should not have to. Please add a one-line description to the link that is provided. Preferably, _link_ that description to a page with more info (e.g. GNU page or Wikipedia page for GnuTLS). From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 13:51:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrwKQ-0002Kr-Gm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:51:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47097) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwKN-00029y-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:51:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwKI-00010t-U6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:51:42 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:64920) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwKI-00010A-Mt; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:51:38 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYM00600JREGK00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:51:02 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.57.191]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYM0060AKD0E750@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:51:01 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:49:01 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published In-reply-to: <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: drew.adams@oracle.com, cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Message-id: <83vcntqb4y.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:51:45 -0000 > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:47:24 +0200 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > From: "Drew Adams" > > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:55:30 -0800 > > > > > The Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries have been published in > > > http://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/ > > > > > > The binaries were built using the following libraries: > > > giflib-4.1.4-1 > > > gnutls-3.0.9 > > > jpeg-6b-4 > > > libXpm-3.5.8 > > > libpng-1.4.3-1 > > > tiff-3.8.2-1 > > > zlib-1.2.5-2 > > > > > > Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at this location: > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why might an Emacs user > > want to obtain a binary for it? How does it relate to Emacs? > > It's an email authentication package. See the node "Authentication" > in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. See also a short note in etc/NEWS (which is more Lisp programmer oriented). From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 13:59:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrwRx-0004Gu-9r for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46440) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwRs-0004Gk-0g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwRn-0003XD-KC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:27 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:40765) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwRn-0003X4-8V; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:59:23 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYM00I00KBERK00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:59:21 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.57.191]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYM00I9PKQWR620@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:59:21 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:57:21 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [h-e-w] Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83sjixqar2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:59:32 -0000 > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , , > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:17:57 -0800 > > > > > Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at > > > > this location: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why > > > might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? > > > How does it relate to Emacs? > > > > It's an email authentication package. See the node "Authentication" > > in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. > > The point was for you to say that _in the announcement email_. Then make your point explicitly. For some weird reason I thought you actually wanted to know the answer, and made an effort of looking for an providing a reference for you to read about that. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 14:08:53 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrwaz-0007Bc-89 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:08:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40574) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrwaw-0007BU-HO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:08:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrwav-0000ov-Ml for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:08:50 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:37106) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rrwat-0000m1-Om; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:08:47 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0UJ8iXt026753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:08:45 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0UJ8hmv017752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:08:44 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0UJ8hGC022145; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:08:43 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:08:43 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com><834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> <83sjixqar2.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: [h-e-w] Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:08:42 -0800 Message-ID: <6F31DC5229CE4ED999DD8061CD959964@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AczfgVEF1ih3IvTyQn2BMTkhzkueigAAMjkg In-Reply-To: <83sjixqar2.fsf@gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F26EABD.0130,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:08:51 -0000 > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why > > > > might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? > > > > How does it relate to Emacs? > > > > > > It's an email authentication package. See the node > > > "Authentication" in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. > > > > The point was for you to say that _in the announcement email_. > > Then make your point explicitly. For some weird reason I thought you > actually wanted to know the answer, and made an effort of looking for > an providing a reference for you to read about that. I replied to the _announcement_ mail and its author, requesting that it describe GnuTLS. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 14:11:34 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rrwda-0008Bn-44 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:11:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60587) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwdT-000832-TX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:11:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwdO-00022v-6T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:11:27 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:44013) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrwdN-00022j-TH; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:11:22 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LYM00I00L7YW000@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:11:20 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.57.191]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LYM00IABLAVVQ10@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:11:20 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:09:20 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [h-e-w] Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published In-reply-to: <6F31DC5229CE4ED999DD8061CD959964@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83mx95qa73.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> <834nvdrsk3.fsf@gnu.org> <83sjixqar2.fsf@gnu.org> <6F31DC5229CE4ED999DD8061CD959964@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 Cc: cschol2112@googlemail.com, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:11:33 -0000 > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , , > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:08:42 -0800 > > > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why > > > > > might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? > > > > > How does it relate to Emacs? > > > > > > > > It's an email authentication package. See the node > > > > "Authentication" in the smtpmail manual that comes with Emacs. > > > > > > The point was for you to say that _in the announcement email_. > > > > Then make your point explicitly. For some weird reason I thought you > > actually wanted to know the answer, and made an effort of looking for > > an providing a reference for you to read about that. > > I replied to the _announcement_ mail and its author, requesting that it describe > GnuTLS. Your questions requested nothing about the announcement. They were questions about GnuTLS. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 16:27:30 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rryl8-0007PZ-Hu for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:27:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38365) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rryl4-0007M4-Mr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:27:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rryl3-00082H-Ap for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:27:26 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:36661) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rryl3-000827-5z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:27:25 -0500 Received: by dake40 with SMTP id e40so4256882dak.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lekktu@gmail.com designates 10.68.225.4 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.68.225.4; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lekktu@gmail.com designates 10.68.225.4 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lekktu@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=lekktu@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.68.225.4]) by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr47464742pbc.111.1327958843798 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:27:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5u1Mes+L5KKJAgpJPfsm06O7Ad0QL8jX3HPwm4wRcqc=; b=h/nPZb86XrFPQrJGS24Oq5JMGdl1bjGNbEXGmMWrr9RcQjS0uTjJ4yst4n5otVf0bX vEU/0oh7mJmawRmkvVAA08vvjNYqjTuYxcm0ZDVztbbSDzjRN43S1PB/b+ZNKzQbsL7v 47rpvD8yHd2pw2axZcaYTftcLoE3pm6eP3fjY= Received: by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr38863279pbc.111.1327958843699; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:27:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F26DD9D.1080101@gmx.at> References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> <4F26DD9D.1080101@gmx.at> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:26:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions To: martin rudalics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:27:28 -0000 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 19:12, martin rudalics wrote: > Another possibility would be to give the window a `no-switch-to-buffer' > dedicated value and have `switch-to-buffer' / `display-buffer' observe > that. Well, yes, but isn't that like doing dedication all over again? > Maybe a `display-buffer-in-window-with-predicate' > would cover this. Yes, I proposed such function one or two messages ago ;-) > Where do you call `quit-window' here? =C2=A0Or did you want to call it he= re? I wanted to call it there, and also in case I do use quit-window interactiv= ely. > It would be easy to do that. =C2=A0We would only have to decide on a name= . Suit yourself :-) > And I thought that `jb-setup' would be the more general function. No, in the cases I was describing, choosing the window is generic, and setting it up is specific of each use case. > IIUC we have three reasonable ways to do it: > > (1) Put all the things we want (like desired window size, dedicatedness, > =C2=A0 =C2=A0...) into `display-buffer-alist'. =C2=A0That's what my origi= nal idea was > =C2=A0 =C2=A0and it's downside is that it makes `display-buffer-alist' bl= oated - > =C2=A0 =C2=A0we would have to put all this into its documentation. I like that, but I think Stefan would dislike the added complexity. > (2) Provide some sort of a hook within `display-buffer-alist'. =C2=A0That= 's > =C2=A0 =C2=A0easy to document and allows to call a function only for buff= ers that > =C2=A0 =C2=A0want it. =C2=A0The downside of this is that a user has to re= plicate it > =C2=A0 =C2=A0for each and every alist entry since entries are not merged. Still, it seems quite flexible. > (3) Provide a standard `display-buffer-functions' hook. =C2=A0This means = that > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the function called there has to handle every possible detai= l based > =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the window and the buffer's name. Yes, that's the least optimal answer. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 16:53:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrzAj-00025N-Pm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51761) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzAg-00023G-UK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzAf-0008Tk-Ci for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:54 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:48278) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzAf-0008TP-9W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:53 -0500 Received: by iadk27 with SMTP id k27so7378263iad.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ksrenevasan@gmail.com designates 10.42.168.133 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.42.168.133; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ksrenevasan@gmail.com designates 10.42.168.133 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ksrenevasan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ksrenevasan@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.42.168.133]) by 10.42.168.133 with SMTP id w5mr19839338icy.38.1327960432304 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type :date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHrf9IBlJwv7GXx2iDCggKrnhGl2GVSQjlbf9CKyRHY=; b=DD5RO4yv8nTnIFvhKL2tGlFeU5j5n31QKmo1TA6hD6Rddn0N2ER+FIo2oLskR2tngz OmICQzcEHuf5i2ACz2zfgc73D4atTivA9Gd5QpuebG0Wu2ZeT+3yeF3jviphS2A4dWLP 7kvL739T94hCBYuOaM7ekuZgUheAVBgJ7Ag7c= Received: by 10.42.168.133 with SMTP id w5mr15520330icy.38.1327960432202; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.3] (c-98-237-183-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.237.183.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj1sm10285757igb.0.2012.01.30.13.53.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. From: Kaushik Srenevasan To: Nick Roberts In-Reply-To: <1327828662.12356.4.camel@totara.tehura.co.nz> References: <1327828662.12356.4.camel@totara.tehura.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:52:38 -0800 Message-ID: <1327960358.2892.5.camel@garuda3.sysenter> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.30.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:53:55 -0000 On Sun, 2012-01-29 at 22:17 +1300, Nick Roberts wrote: > That looks fine but would it be better to place the overlay arrow > further down the window so that the user can see previous instructions? > > e.g, > > "-data-disassemble -s \"$pc - 80\" -e \"$pc + 80\" -- 0" Yes, that would definitely be useful except I couldn't figure out how to reliably get to an instruction boundary while subtracting from $PC. GDB doesn't seem to do it automatically. Ideas? - Kaushik From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 17:04:45 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrzLB-0008QN-8D for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:46791) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzL5-0008PH-Th for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzL1-0007ef-Lk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:39 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:60053) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzL1-0007eM-HY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:35 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0UM4W5c016022; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:32 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5DBDCB4431; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions Message-ID: References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:04:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:21:49 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4117=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4117> : streams <724356> : uri <1056750> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: Juanma Barranquero , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:04:44 -0000 > Actually `bs-cycle-next' should use `pop-to-buffer-same-window'. No, since that could cause it to pop up a new frame, whereas bs-cycle-next is not about "I want to see this buffer" but "I want to change this window's content", so popping up a new frame wouldn't help. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 17:08:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrzOK-0001ik-Tt for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:08:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47666) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzOI-0001iA-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzOH-0000SI-9m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:58 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:52193) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzOH-0000S7-65 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:57 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0UM7rk7015633; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:53 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3EE00B4431; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions Message-ID: References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:07:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:48:19 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4117=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4117> : streams <724357> : uri <1056750> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.20 Cc: martin rudalics , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:07:59 -0000 >> Alternatively, one could make `set-window-dedicated-p' accept >> a list of names of buffers that may replace the one currently shown in >> the corresponding window. Yes, we could generalize it to accept a predicate. > Well, that would help me, though I don't know if it is a very common > need. Dedicated windows do not seem to get much use yet in user code. I think it's a common-enough case to want to use a window for "this kind of buffers only" (e.g. *diff* and *vc-diff*, or for *TeX-shell* and *compilation*). Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 17:13:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RrzTm-0003mD-I3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47575) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzTj-0003l7-HH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzTh-0002Tf-S3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:35 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:47192) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzTh-0002Ta-HO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:33 -0500 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q0UMDW87016848; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:32 -0500 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3E3D8B4431; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?utf-8?B?0JrQvtC90YHRgtCw0L3RgtC40L0g0JrRg9C70LjQutC+0LI=?= Subject: Re: lexical-let cause memory leaks? Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:13:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?B?ItCa0L7QvdGB0YLQsNC90YLQuNC9INCa0YPQu9C40LrQvtCyIidz?= message of "Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:09:47 +0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4117=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9309 : core <4117> : streams <724359> : uri <1056754> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:13:36 -0000 > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9062580/when-does-emacs-lisps-lexical-let-leak-memory > So... Is it true, that "variables bound with lexical-let are never > released, even if they are never used"? Not that I know. Of course, this code is not bug-free, but I don't know of any concrete case that bumps into such a bug. Stefan From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 18:10:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs0ML-0007lA-Ir for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:10:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52756) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs0MJ-0007ku-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:10:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs0MI-0004We-4y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:09:59 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:57249 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs0MH-0004W4-SF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:09:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4274451C816; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:08:46 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Organization: JURTA References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:53:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:53:33 +0200") Message-ID: <87wr88lt1i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:10:00 -0000 > So how about the following behavior (for brevity I will describe only > isearch-repeat-forward): (1) if you use isearch-repeat-forward then at > the end of the operation you must be in a search-forward state; (2) > the numerical value decides how many searches are done and (3) the > sign defines the direction. Thanks. I agree that these rules are reasonable. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 22:46:00 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs4fQ-0006oy-Mo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:46:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38288) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzzQ-0003dh-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:46:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzzP-0005BV-0U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:46:20 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com ([209.85.212.169]:40490) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RrzzO-0005B6-SM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0500 Received: by wibhj13 with SMTP id hj13so4828958wib.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dan@haxney.org designates 10.180.78.233 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.180.78.233; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dan@haxney.org designates 10.180.78.233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dan@haxney.org Received: from mr.google.com ([10.180.78.233]) by 10.180.78.233 with SMTP id e9mr35700910wix.0.1327963577186 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.78.233 with SMTP id e9mr29810752wix.0.1327963577135; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:46:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.4.170 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:45:57 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Hackney Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:45:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Interest in "Elisp lint"-like tool? To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.169 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:45:58 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:46:21 -0000 Having done random hacking on and reading of some of the elisp libraries around the web, especially in the various ELPA archives, there is a lack of consistency across the different packages. They can range from small-ish things like newline characters to documentation styles to more significant things like the presence of autoloads, which are especially significant for packages installed via ELPA. There are a few tools which check various elements of style or consistency like `checkdoc', `package', and `byte-compile', but there's no comprehensive reference and validator for the whole range of style-like things. I've put together a preliminary list of some of the checks and warning I think might be useful. A number of these would require some sort of agreement or decision by the community (indentation style, for example), and for those, I've left the "check specification" as a question. - short docstring on first line, blank line following - document all args - specify defcustom format - custom group - keymap in mode definition - can setup purely through autoloads and custom - all customs, defuns, and modes documented, especially interactive ones - variable and face for text faces, prefer existing face or inheritance from an existing face - quote symbol references (in docstrings) - Standard indent format? What to use? - whitespace, tabs and newline policy? - Single vs. double space after end of sentence? - warn about runtime CL funcs, suggest alternatives? - document free variables? - should section character be present or not? - where do file-local variables go? - how should global minor modes be handled? - document prefix arguments for interactive commands - warn when accessing the prefix argument without it being declared in the interactive specification - standardized keybinding declaration (defvar vs. let) and specification (`kbd' vs "\C") - `global-set-key' vs. global minor mode? - Don't override reserved keys (unless you are sure) - Autoload mode custom variables - no * in docstring - header and footer comments - enable modes by custom - use `define-*-mode' rather than raw `defun' - proper copyright, license, author, version, etc. headers - warn about comments in the header not in a standard section - avoid `defadvice' - use ";;" for comments - "namespace" should match filename - warn about deprecated variables and functions - `provide' call at end of file - semver.org (or "ruby gem") version policy - order of headers? - no comment ASCII art boxes (e.g. ";;;;;; Section description ;;;;;;") - `require's at top (except when not) - in-code version number? (e.g. (defvar FOO-version "1.2.3")) - warn on `require's without declared package dependency - unnecessary `require' - complain about too many function arguments? - should keyword args be suggested? Encouraged? Discouraged? - Check for author email and home page (possibly more?) - Document public vs. private vars and functions Also, I thought there were some interesting/important behaviors which such a package would require: - Magic comment to override style checks (;;;###stop-whining) - set strictness level/style group to check - Different checks (e.g. deprecated) for different Emacs versions So you could have a group called `documentation' which would contain checks that related to comments and docstrings, for example. Then, if you wanted to run the checks without the documentation checks, you could remove the `documentation' group from the list of applied checks. As for a name, I came up with a couple (not particularly attached to any of them): - styEl (style for elisp) - elLint - elCritic (in the same vain as Perl::Critic) - CriticEl - StyleEl Some of these style choices seem fairly uncontroversial (like making sure `provide' is at the end of the file), and I think it would be a boon to the community to have some further standardization around best practices and expected patterns. This becomes especially relevant in light of the "packagization" of an increasing number of Elisp libraries, as they do not go through the rigors of making it into Emacs core. What do you all think? -- Daniel M. Hackney From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 30 22:53:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs4mk-0008Ld-Um for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43719) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs4mi-0008Im-GZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs4mh-0001Qr-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:32 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:51369) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs4mh-0001Qn-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:31 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs4mg-0003TY-FJ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:30 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Daniel Hackney Subject: Re: Interest in "Elisp lint"-like tool? References: X-Spook: USDOJ Rule Psix Ansar al-Islam CISU MILSATCOM Aldergrove X-Ran: npUh-q!zHJ(maj,m&Vwx]5:C=*Bf2P99|y/y^I@ZZ#\!<-os4ca.m9DjW{V$NGU.*,O,qK X-Hue: white X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:53:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Daniel Hackney's message of "Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:45:57 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 03:53:33 -0000 (trivial comments only) Daniel Hackney wrote: > - elLint A bad name, since elint.el already exists. (See also lisp-mnt.el.) > Some of these style choices seem fairly uncontroversial (like making > sure `provide' is at the end of the file) It is not always possible though (to avoid recursive requires is the usual reason). From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 01:25:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs79d-0000WC-T3 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:25:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47203) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs79b-0000W6-Sj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:25:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs79Z-0003Jj-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:25:19 -0500 Received: from snapmx1.ironport.snap.net.nz ([202.37.100.100]:11650) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs79Y-0003Jf-R8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:25:17 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvwEAOmAJ09vRfiH/2dsb2JhbABDrmSCdwEBAQQ6PxALGC4sK8EyE4pvAQUCAgkFDAcGAQoCAgMGAgQCAQQCAgYEDwMDAQSCdAMIFQkDAQteDQZAgxwElR6SaA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,594,1320577200"; d="scan'208";a="94486845" Received: from rupert.snap.net.nz ([202.37.100.140]) by smtp1.ironport.snap.net.nz with ESMTP; 31 Jan 2012 18:53:44 +1300 X-Sender-IP: 111.69.248.135 X-Sender-IP: 111.69.248.135 Received: from totara (135.248.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz [111.69.248.135]) by rupert.snap.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869D11FD26; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:53:44 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by totara (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 68452118E94; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:53:44 +1300 (NZDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20263.33256.329678.646727@totara.tehura.co.nz> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:53:44 +1300 From: Nick Roberts To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. In-Reply-To: <1327960358.2892.5.camel@garuda3.sysenter> References: <1327828662.12356.4.camel@totara.tehura.co.nz> <1327960358.2892.5.camel@garuda3.sysenter> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 23.1.1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 202.37.100.100 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:25:20 -0000 Kaushik Srenevasan writes: > On Sun, 2012-01-29 at 22:17 +1300, Nick Roberts wrote: > > That looks fine but would it be better to place the overlay arrow > > further down the window so that the user can see previous instructions? > > > > e.g, > > > > "-data-disassemble -s \"$pc - 80\" -e \"$pc + 80\" -- 0" > > Yes, that would definitely be useful except I couldn't figure out how to > reliably get to an instruction boundary while subtracting from $PC. GDB > doesn't seem to do it automatically. Ideas? It seemed work OK when I tried it on x86_64. I don't know in what situations it wouldn't work or how to fix it when it doesn't. Nick From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 01:52:24 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs7Zo-0003W7-Mp for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:52:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60252) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs7Zk-0003RC-C3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:52:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs7Zi-0006pp-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:52:20 -0500 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:62795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs7Zi-0006pg-5j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:52:18 -0500 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA37AC055D for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:52:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:52:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port In-Reply-To: References: <2282B3B4-D844-4E26-BB94-9F79EEA2E847@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: NetBSD 3.0 (DF) X-Received-From: 133.82.132.2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:52:21 -0000 I am pleased to announce the release of Emacs 23 Mac port 2.0 today. It is available from ftp://ftp.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp/emacs/emacs-23.4-mac-2.0.tar.gz This version is based on Emacs 23.4. ** Fixed bugs *** Wrong relief color calculation. ** Improvements *** Add sections for the Mac port in the Emacs info. YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 02:21:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1Rs81h-0006mT-VF for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:21:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45803) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs81b-0006m4-Sq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:21:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs81X-00025K-Ol for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:21:07 -0500 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:32959) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rs81X-00025D-LS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:21:03 -0500 Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so629550iag.0 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:21:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type :date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MbJPXPbwpu8TG/ER4jJ3dwHqqejS4Z0s9IzfYJFAd4Y=; b=GJEbtVmUHKhvV13KfGAFCE1bgG1V47E54MBcAygQSynGoBK/9lUl4Y4ZTbNmCr94BN JnF8iIMPSKm3MUoBGymlb9f2XHpLXZcGxqIbZacNAUd5n3XCyWja232hxInljCOJPwJk Y2NbuXQXdEi8jAHYylwXO3oGLqJoovA9wKmL0= Received: by 10.50.36.230 with SMTP id t6mr20897319igj.5.1327994462843; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.3] (c-98-237-183-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [98.237.183.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g34sm20960695ibk.10.2012.01.30.23.21.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:21:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] GUD-MI's disassembly buffer should follow $PC in the absence of debug information. From: Kaushik Srenevasan To: Nick Roberts In-Reply-To: <20263.33256.329678.646727@totara.tehura.co.nz> References: <1327828662.12356.4.camel@totara.tehura.co.nz> <1327960358.2892.5.camel@garuda3.sysenter> <20263.33256.329678.646727@totara.tehura.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:19:56 -0800 Message-ID: <1327994396.10781.11.camel@garuda3.sysenter> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.30.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: ksrenevasan@gmail.com List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:21:12 -0000 On Tue, 2012-01-31 at 18:53 +1300, Nick Roberts wrote: > It seemed work OK when I tried it on x86_64. I don't know in what situations > it wouldn't work or how to fix it when it doesn't. > It generally works except, AFAIK, when making a call where both the callee and the caller don't have debug information. In such a situation, executing a step while stopped at a CALL instruction produces the wrong disassembly. There are other GDB commands too (such as NEXTI) that don't work when both the caller and callee don't have debug information, that I'm trying to fix (in GDB); and would prefer to fix GUD-MI (to display a few instructions before $PC) once GDB works as expected in these cases. What do you think? -Kaushik From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 05:51:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsBIw-0006B7-F5 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:51:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59500) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsBIu-0006Aa-1F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:51:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsBIm-00057b-AD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:51:12 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:54683) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsBIm-00057N-59 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:51:04 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RsBIh-0006AP-32 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:50:59 +0100 Received: from c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net ([76.28.40.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:50:59 +0100 Received: from tzz by c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:50:59 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: Ted Zlatanov Subject: Re: Interest in "Elisp lint"-like tool? 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:51:12 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:45:57 -0500 Daniel Hackney wrote: DH> Having done random hacking on and reading of some of the elisp libraries DH> around the web, especially in the various ELPA archives, there is a lack DH> of consistency across the different packages. They can range from DH> small-ish things like newline characters to documentation styles to more DH> significant things like the presence of autoloads, which are especially DH> significant for packages installed via ELPA. ... DH> Some of these style choices seem fairly uncontroversial (like making DH> sure `provide' is at the end of the file), and I think it would be a DH> boon to the community to have some further standardization around best DH> practices and expected patterns. This becomes especially relevant in DH> light of the "packagization" of an increasing number of Elisp libraries, DH> as they do not go through the rigors of making it into Emacs core. DH> What do you all think? I would appreciate such a tool. Ted From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 06:42:36 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsC6e-00068S-58 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:42:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54616) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsC6c-00068L-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:42:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsC6W-0005TR-On for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:42:34 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:43570) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsC6W-0005TD-DQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:42:28 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 Jan 2012 11:42:27 -0000 Received: from 62-47-40-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.40.148]) [62.47.40.148] by mail.gmx.net (mp012) with SMTP; 31 Jan 2012 12:42:27 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18vnC4YHn4vtBzCRPiAC1fCslH2CwcNPtbZWk4AUg i8BM3B2qb0WMDk Message-ID: <4F27D35E.1060009@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:41:18 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> <4F26DD9D.1080101@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 213.165.64.22 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:42:35 -0000 >> Another possibility would be to give the window a `no-switch-to-buffer' >> dedicated value and have `switch-to-buffer' / `display-buffer' observe >> that. > > Well, yes, but isn't that like doing dedication all over again? It would be weaker than t and stronger than other non-nil values. >> Maybe a `display-buffer-in-window-with-predicate' >> would cover this. > > Yes, I proposed such function one or two messages ago ;-) It was your proposal I had in mind. >> (2) Provide some sort of a hook within `display-buffer-alist'. That's >> easy to document and allows to call a function only for buffers that >> want it. The downside of this is that a user has to replicate it >> for each and every alist entry since entries are not merged. > > Still, it seems quite flexible. Let's add this for Emacs 24.2 then. martin From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 06:53:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsCGs-0008B3-5I for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56203) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsCGn-0008At-4o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsCGi-0007Vx-Nt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:05 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:40534) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsCGi-0007Vn-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:00 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so6579629obb.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 03:52:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=t9VN49VXwM/sqNIOW5KaS63uJdjvI4sP9s0THuX6tsQ=; b=bG0sl+hdhHSWcd21zzqMrXmFS1Sm2PCkgqKPHUOtuIjox/NpPMFZqAVpIj18jMbcqr ameMqDDZKLQL5rgSPfsVAskIQREWvqEtGMDKV3vlGya6iGfhb66skAqBBPDGbO6a9hK+ 4Yi7QskZ3jyieuDtSojEfESTUWbomMjTC7Q8U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.75.102 with SMTP id b6mr20750770obw.9.1328010779033; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 03:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.242.41 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 03:52:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87wr88lt1i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87wr88lt1i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:52:58 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov From: Gideon Stupp To: Juri Linkov Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=14dae93994a9be00c104b7d19aee X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:53:09 -0000 --14dae93994a9be00c104b7d19aee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 1/31/12, Juri Linkov wrote: >> So how about the following behavior (for brevity I will describe only >> isearch-repeat-forward): (1) if you use isearch-repeat-forward then at >> the end of the operation you must be in a search-forward state; (2) >> the numerical value decides how many searches are done and (3) the >> sign defines the direction. > > Thanks. I agree that these rules are reasonable. > Hi Juri, Please see attached patch. Note that I decided to stop the repeated search at wraparound and any other case where the search fails (eq isearch-sucess nil). 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X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp04.sth.basefarm.net 1RsE3K-0007VB-EW 20794a69c1a6b3363682060f80abdd68 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.76.153.5 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:48:12 -0000 Why is `make-string' implemented in C? Why not something like: (apply 'string (make-list LENGTH INIT)) ? Deniz From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 09:03:28 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsEIy-0006QM-N1 for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55827) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEIs-0006N6-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEIn-0003HW-0S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:22 -0500 Received: from mail-yw0-f51.google.com ([209.85.213.51]:62241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEIm-0003HQ-QG; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:16 -0500 Received: by yhr47 with SMTP id 47so62228yhr.38 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:03:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tn1sx97h4EzvgCPm4hhXGf3JnpxCwgM/BKBBQHtEg50=; b=kc+PRgocN2G7/+cSioBTgznBI+xIpFDsnHCEkvbNZ/DXU78l7PeWaTbe7MLOTnxieW nr98y3iz+XSI9ga2rD3QrpyUM+RMbPE4C7LvDYyvjYempQ2GMGWUlJkExGP5lUH9YiqN XKm10ncM6EbkKYudYfkb38DN9it6POwv2IFhU= Received: by 10.236.46.232 with SMTP id r68mr34875675yhb.80.1328018595741; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (71-212-144-226.hlrn.qwest.net. [71.212.144.226]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n35sm39118349yhh.19.2012.01.31.06.03.14 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:03:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F27F4A1.6030907@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:03:13 -0700 From: Christoph Scholtes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.213.51 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, 'Emacs-Devel devel' X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:03:26 -0000 On 1/29/2012 9:55 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at this location: >> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why might an Emacs user > want to obtain a binary for it? How does it relate to Emacs? This is an announcement email nothing more. Do I also have to explain what a Pretest is? What you omitted in your quote is the reference to README.W32. IF we need to include any clarifying information we should include it in README.W32 and I will only reference the it in any future announcement. Christoph From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 09:06:50 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsEME-0007Y4-OP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:06:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEMB-0007Xr-Tl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:06:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEM6-0004Dh-7N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:06:47 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:51266) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEM6-0004DU-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:06:42 -0500 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976121C0C0C8; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:06:39 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: ICAgwlIGY3vTl0qHjD+Tyv6EQP05gwDgSbkW9dK5/wU= Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-120-178.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.120.178]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E6C8E1C00043; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:06:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 798F1CA29A; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:06:39 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: Deniz Dogan Subject: Re: The implementation of `make-string' is in C References: <4F27F0E2.8020605@dogan.se> X-Yow: I was in a HOT TUB! I was NORMAL! I was ITALIAN!! I enjoyed th' EARTHQUAKE! Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:06:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4F27F0E2.8020605@dogan.se> (Deniz Dogan's message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:47:14 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 212.18.0.9 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:06:49 -0000 Deniz Dogan writes: > Why is `make-string' implemented in C? Why not something like: > > (apply 'string (make-list LENGTH INIT)) That creates a lot of cons garbage. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 09:16:57 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsEW1-0003ML-1g for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:16:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50036) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEVt-0003Ft-FU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:16:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEVo-0005wQ-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:16:49 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:19900) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEVo-0005wJ-5u; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:16:44 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0VEFtFX015545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:16:11 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0VEFstT022221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:15:55 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0VEFs8j016292; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:15:54 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.34.120) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:15:54 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Christoph Scholtes'" References: <4F25FA2F.2010401@gmail.com> <4F27F4A1.6030907@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Emacs 24.0.93 Pretest Windows Binaries published Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:15:51 -0800 Message-ID: <6E4BE1E758D04283A7C3A660ED379966@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F27F4A1.6030907@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AczgIRSJx1CcKmAjTsuv5insL/B7owAAJPBg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F27F7B1.00CC,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org, 'Emacs-Devel devel' X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:16:55 -0000 > >> Pre-built Windows binaries for GnuTLS are available at > >> this location: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/ > > > > Can you say what that means? What is GnuTLS for, and why > > might an Emacs user want to obtain a binary for it? > > How does it relate to Emacs? > > This is an announcement email nothing more. Do I also have to explain > what a Pretest is? It is an _Emacs_ announcement. If you also mention other stuff then some brief description of its relation to Emacs is in order (i.e., helpful). > IF we need to include any clarifying information we should > include it in README.W32 and I will only reference the it > in any future announcement. Agreed. The readme is the only place we mention other Windows binaries - e.g. image binaries. Why treat GnuTLS specially? Either mention GnuTLS only in the readme (preferred) or mention in the announcement each of the binaries that mentioned in the readme (not preferred). Wherever GnuTLS is mentioned, the mention should be accompanied by a short description. IMO, the readme is the proper place for this. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 09:38:48 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsErA-0002eA-Qe for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:38:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42634) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEqx-00023m-OF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:38:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEqp-00022T-3H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:38:35 -0500 Received: from smtp209.alice.it ([82.57.200.105]:50831) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEqo-0001xj-PU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:38:26 -0500 Received: from ambire (87.0.69.144) by smtp209.alice.it (8.6.023.02) id 4EF08A63041CE2E3; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:38:06 +0100 Received: from ttn by ambire with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RsEq5-000444-1Y; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:37:41 +0100 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Deniz Dogan Subject: Re: The implementation of `make-string' is in C References: <4F27F0E2.8020605@dogan.se> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:37:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4F27F0E2.8020605@dogan.se> (Deniz Dogan's message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:47:14 +0100") Message-ID: <87zkd40wgb.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:38:46 -0000 () Deniz Dogan () Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:47:14 +0100 Why is `make-string' implemented in C? Why not something like: (apply 'string (make-list LENGTH INIT)) ? Did you try this on your source tree? What happened? From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 09:51:01 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsF2z-0000Bh-5T for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:51:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60169) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsF2o-0000B3-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:50:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsF2i-0005kp-OF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:50:50 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:33283) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsF2i-0005kd-JB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:50:44 -0500 Received: by dadv6 with SMTP id v6so17168dad.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:50:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vpcUBg6Bb8IwsCgHX3mzdSOsKzwkFpkwBmLWCE0dRBQ=; b=lDMNXDyhqGgPrIn6xhrGx4XRZtyqh5nhSoTAI/P2obuqoktHCkjJTWDHpz62a/HzZH RFzpYciJQQ5KP/ZcXxQpN7bQ6ZvWF7UlYHkET0H9BEpgORaCozhlkU5lBXiZLjxZqVJO SsoHianOusjKzu+DIwBhMHnGITZM+vXejLDmg= Received: by 10.68.225.4 with SMTP id rg4mr44642989pbc.111.1328021443363; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:50:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:50:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F27D35E.1060009@gmx.at> References: <4F25829F.8000104@gmx.at> <4F266F3D.6030105@gmx.at> <4F26DD9D.1080101@gmx.at> <4F27D35E.1060009@gmx.at> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:50:03 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Some question about display-buffer action functions To: martin rudalics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: Emacs developers X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:50:59 -0000 On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:41, martin rudalics wrote: > It would be weaker than t and stronger than other non-nil values. Well, yes, but at the end, strong, weak, or intermediate dedications are just ways to define how pop-to-buffer, switch-to-buffer, etc. react when confronted with changing the buffer for that window. At some point, wouldn't it just be easier to have an alist mapping buffer-switching functions vs. dedication values, that each buffer-switching function would look at? At a minimum, it would make setup easier, I think. > Let's add this for Emacs 24.2 then. Great. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 10:57:38 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsG5S-00014r-9h for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:57:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35264) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsG5K-00012G-W5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:57:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsG5F-0000Jq-EM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:57:30 -0500 Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.212.41]:62098) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsG5F-0000Je-AH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:57:25 -0500 Received: by vbip1 with SMTP id p1so154096vbi.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:57:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/0VFY+hOg/J+mFrWxZbjWjlKKzoLhtL1I7v8h7cP5H4=; b=Q1v69hJMc/hMhEHZMOa8x+zxczUup9OEZ8VTnHv+qfYV9JwcpKUh79EieFtIudnbWS fdz0vb0dpHskAh/L09qXPze5o/muhqP1GrXJURn8+rsHYiEHtc383fa0nEngTHSir+lV 6qPqqusnXRRjtQcOqpS1TiJY9MPnIiOMwtqu8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.68.132 with SMTP id w4mr11560395vdt.124.1328025444303; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.65.11 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:57:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2282B3B4-D844-4E26-BB94-9F79EEA2E847@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:57:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port From: Xu Xin Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.212.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:57:36 -0000 On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:52 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote: > I am pleased to announce the release of Emacs 23 Mac port 2.0 today. > It is available from > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0ftp://ftp.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp/emacs/emacs-23.4-mac-2.0.tar.= gz > > This version is based on Emacs 23.4. > > ** Fixed bugs > > *** Wrong relief color calculation. > > ** Improvements > > *** Add sections for the Mac port in the Emacs info. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp > Thanks Yamamoto-san for the great job! I updated the self-contained build of Emacs 23 Mac port with the newest patch emacs-23.4-mac-2.0 Check it out with https://github.com/downloads/railwaycat/emacs-mac-port/Emacs.zip From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 11:35:07 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsGfj-0005Vg-Cx for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:35:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48907) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsGfb-0005Qx-AA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:35:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsGfX-00064v-45 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:34:59 -0500 Received: from mail-ee0-f41.google.com ([74.125.83.41]:59047) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsGfW-00064p-QU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:34:55 -0500 Received: by eekc13 with SMTP id c13so51308eek.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=SQ/IDi2oHuR8xtcfD+YUYIHamOeO2TLwaZfodD4f1z0=; b=wsqrWTb2+7reZk3WnTHD4GWjeryXKeoIQ0E+Z8uIo2jLFEdn7y4PkMv0dEMTpbWzbC hjCST3L8RZ8p9LisCjYsrvbAlu87rv2c9wTEnmZ+YJ4JzsDgrQ/cNOSsU+dhMjUnfWCS mCT4b7CM4yBDyfP7Jy5kADqjbXmWEUqWBWm9U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.17.210 with SMTP id j58mr1271103eej.77.1328027693371; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.29.16 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:34:53 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: lexical-let cause memory leaks? From: Takafumi Arakaki To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.125.83.41 Cc: monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA, zxnotdead@gmail.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:35:04 -0000 > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9062580/when-does-emacs-lisps-lexical-let-leak-memory > > So... Is it true, that "variables bound with lexical-let are never > > released, even if they are never used"? > > Not that I know. Of course, this code is not bug-free, but I don't know > of any concrete case that bumps into such a bug. Hi, I'm the one who wrote the stackoverflow question. Good to know that there is no known leak. Thank you. Takafumi From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 15:07:22 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsJz8-0001Gp-LY for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:07:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55841) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsJz1-00015q-60 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:07:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsJyw-0005Xu-VL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:07:15 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:51359) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsJyw-0005Xj-QF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:07:10 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RsJys-0001zp-Rm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 Received: from c-98-214-102-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net ([98.214.102.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 Received: from jwiegley by c-98-214-102-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:07:06 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: John Wiegley Subject: Re: Emacs 23 Mac port Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:01:53 -0600 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <2282B3B4-D844-4E26-BB94-9F79EEA2E847@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-98-214-102-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/23.4 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:bMx1ry0Q/lcMUO6voVGIZjVvsD0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:07:20 -0000 >>>>> Xu Xin writes: > Thanks Yamamoto-san for the great job! Yes, thank you very much for my favorite-of-all Emacs Mac ports! > I updated the self-contained build of Emacs 23 Mac port with the newest > patch emacs-23.4-mac-2.0 I've also created an easier means for distribution. If you add the following line to /opt/local/etc/macports/source.conf: http://www.newartisans.com/macports Then you can install the latest Macport Emacs using: sudo port install emacs-macport One thing to note: I've disabled file-interlocking behavior in this version (those funny symbolic links starting with .# that get littered around), because I find it never useful, and often annoying. If someone really wants it to be an option, let me know and I'll add a +interlocking variant. John From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 15:24:46 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsKFy-0005Ww-2y for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:24:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41082) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsKFq-0005U3-Ry for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:24:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsKFl-0000Gl-CA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:24:38 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:58163 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsKFl-0000Gh-84 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:24:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B342451C7C7; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:23:14 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov To: Gideon Stupp Subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL PATCH] Extending Isearch-repeat-forward/backward to support a prefix argument following suggesion by Juri Linkov Organization: JURTA References: <87pqe5x6ju.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ty3h2uvp.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87r4yiav0w.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87wr88lt1i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:18:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gideon Stupp's message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:52:58 +0200") Message-ID: <87y5snws5s.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 69.163.218.105 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:24:44 -0000 > Please see attached patch. Note that I decided to stop the repeated > search at wraparound and any other case where the search fails (eq > isearch-sucess nil). I think you are right that repeated Isearch should stop at wraparound and other search errors. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 18:09:10 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsMp4-0005K2-Ho for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:09:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35496) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsMoz-0005Hg-4F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:09:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsMov-0002vi-7g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:09:05 -0500 Received: from smtp208.alice.it ([82.57.200.104]:36510) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsMou-0002vQ-Up for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:09:01 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.103] (79.11.35.125) by smtp208.alice.it (8.6.023.02) id 4F056E8502BA4034; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 00:08:58 +0100 Message-ID: <4F28748A.1050103@alice.it> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 00:08:58 +0100 From: Angelo Graziosi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emacs Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode References: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> <4F2518D5.1090208@alice.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.104 Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Fenn?= X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:09:08 -0000 Hi guys... any news? which is the final decision? Thanks, Angelo. Il 29/01/2012 12.15, J=FCrgen Fenn ha scritto: > Am 29. Januar 2012 11:00 schrieb Angelo Graziosi: >> aquamacs has AUCTeX by default... > > No point against finally including it in Emacs proper. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 18:38:49 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsNHl-0003rg-TS for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:38:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51492) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsNHg-0003rF-Vp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:38:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsNHe-0004Qc-39 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:38:44 -0500 Received: from mail-tul01m020-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:54330) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsNHd-0004QY-M4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:38:42 -0500 Received: by obbta7 with SMTP id ta7so735839obb.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=s+U2j+Aknu8yJL2Jf+i/uADGznywXnoW/63k2gqOMtg=; b=GoPUazcj6J/m98heAQYn53+qLybrQbW5JqZAwrhq/HZHD16Vaq5xrTf9YVTTF7NOkz 7DqUvu29bEImO6hcJmvaiQkvZHQR/Szv4qX57KZRatbd6KjMFw+lJ66RZwTujvg9asKA OCkcPJuq97flA4qB7Zn8Vm6+uhKpGfvnCnEO0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.36.35 with SMTP id n3mr37093364obj.66.1328053120635; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: aurelien.aptel@gmail.com Received: by 10.182.165.40 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:38:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <037B3467A9FE4EC9B681DF3B1171A539@us.oracle.com> References: <037B3467A9FE4EC9B681DF3B1171A539@us.oracle.com> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 00:38:40 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VvvRGkLeeYPFcWAEx2ihMeeimKU Message-ID: Subject: Re: [patch] add "underwave" face attribute From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_Aptel?= To: Drew Adams Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d0444ef377f948704b7db76cb X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.214.169 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:38:47 -0000 --f46d0444ef377f948704b7db76cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Ok so I've taken into account what has been said on the list. Here's another attempt. For a quick glance at the result, apply my patch, compile and run. $ ./emacs -Q --eval "(set-face-attribute 'default nil :underline '(:color \"red\" :style wave)) It works on X11, see below for the rest. Summary of the changes ====================== The :underline attribute has now a new way to be set: (:color color :style style) If `color' is a string, underline in it. If `color' is `foreground-color', underline with the foreground color of the face. If `style' is `wave' underline with a wave. If `style' is `line' underline with a line. If the attribute :color is omited, underline with the foreground color of the face. If the attribute :style is omited, underline with a line. All the previous ways to set :underline behave the same. Customize menu -------------- The customize menu now looks like this: Underline: [Off/On] Color: [Foreground color/...] Style: [Line/Wave] Implementation -------------- -- src/dispextern.h -- Add a new enum for the underlining type. enum face_underline_type { FACE_UNDER_LINE, FACE_UNDER_WAVE, }; And a new field in struct face. struct face { ... enum face_underline_type underline_type; ... }; -- src/xterm.c -- Update X11 backend. Add x_draw_underwave() The code seems to use unsigned long for pixel offsets so that's what I used. The wave is drown correctly now. No more wave breaks in C-h h. static void x_draw_underwave (Display *dpy, Window win, GC gc, unsigned long x0, unsigned long y0, unsigned long width, unsigned long wave_height, unsigned long wave_length) Add a new codepath in x_draw_glyph_string() to handle the new style. /* Draw underline. */ if (s->face->underline_p) { if (s->face->underline_type == FACE_UNDER_WAVE) { ...new code... } else if (s->face->underline_type == FACE_UNDER_LINE) { ...re-indented old code... } -- src/w32term.m -- -- src/nsterm.c -- ================================================================ I do not have access to a Window/Mac OSX system. Someone needs to test and complete this. I don't event know if it compiles. ================================================================ First attempt at porting to Windows and Mac OSX. Same change made to src/xterm.c, basically. Just replaced line drawing primitive by the system one. -- src/xfaces.c -- Add List_Object for symbol `line' and `wave'. Reuse Qforeground_color, QCstyle, QCcolor. Change checks made to :underline value to accept CONS construct. Handle CONS construct when updating struct face attribute. -- lisp/faces.el -- -- doc/lispref/display.texi -- Update :underline documentation -- lisp/cus-face.el -- Update customize menu for :underline. (:underline (choice :tag "Underline" :help-echo "Control text underlining." 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IAl7Cg== --f46d0444ef377f948704b7db76cb-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 21:06:16 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsPaS-0000GL-Sm for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52758) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsPaM-0000F6-U4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsPaI-0005Qn-NS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:10 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:45859) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsPaI-0005Qf-Gc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:06 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RsPaE-0005xk-Ev for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:06:02 +0100 Received: from cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com ([86.24.57.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:06:02 +0100 Received: from yhvh2000 by cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:06:02 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: William Stevenson Subject: /etc/TODO: define-minor-mode & minor-mode-list Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:05:49 +0000 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:FTzQcnBSOVUtfqYL/fOxJTrPj4M= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:06:15 -0000 Looking in the TODO file for a beginner item I started with: ** Check what minor modes don't use define-minor-mode and convert them to use it. I'm confused about minor-mode-list. Why are some minor-modes added in the definition even though they are defined with define-minor-mode? I also found that abbrev-mode remained in the list if it was removed from this definition. Also is this todo considered todone? ;; If a minor mode is not defined with define-minor-mode, ;; add it here explicitly. ;; isearch-mode is deliberately excluded, since you should ;; not call it yourself. (defvar minor-mode-list '(auto-save-mode auto-fill-mode abbrev-mode overwrite-mode view-mode hs-minor-mode) "List of all minor mode functions.") From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 21:33:33 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQ0r-0005QZ-3J for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:33:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQ0p-0005QQ-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:33:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQ0o-0001CI-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:33:31 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:47010) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQ0o-0001CA-0M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:33:30 -0500 Received: by pbaa12 with SMTP id a12so785139pba.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:33:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=st1AHIVRoi47S5inPfnjFaq3NC1vOjk6G10EnIMkH8k=; b=N1AGMAI9yhO5rnLXDwk/L+YAzpfKkk/VnbB//m+FRNiKlN8ADw0H/6xTw38pVXl86n ogBQK0p3hC/ermAwl4kqpGpCsIkMO9fA5rtWQXGDuIvVB5iLHKuG0uilxIT6I59l/+hZ 3Y3x2BYNOth9/WRkKfU+iEi6jyVlez/jq6VfU= Received: by 10.68.75.199 with SMTP id e7mr55226383pbw.128.1328063608632; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:33:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 18:32:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> References: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 03:32:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: /etc/TODO: define-minor-mode & minor-mode-list To: William Stevenson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:33:32 -0000 On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 03:05, William Stevenson wrote: > I'm confused about minor-mode-list. Why are some minor-modes added in > the definition even though they are defined with define-minor-mode? Likely because these minor modes were converted to use define-minor-mode, but not removed from minor-mode-list. > I also found that abbrev-mode remained in the list if it was removed > from this definition. define-minor-mode (conditionally) calls add-minor-mode, which does (unless (memq toggle minor-mode-list) (push toggle minor-mode-list)) so minor modes defined with define-minor-mode will end in the list. For preloaded minor modes, that's already so: emacs -Q --batch --eval "(princ (length minor-mode-list))" =3D> 30 > Also is this todo considered todone? There are 300+ instances of "(defun .*-mode " in the sources. Not all are really modes, and many are major modes, but surely there are still unconverted minor modes. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 21:46:43 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQDb-0001DW-Jo for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:46:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQDZ-0001DP-9N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:46:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQDY-0002lP-CE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:46:41 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:57520) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQDY-0002lL-76 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:46:40 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQDV-00049G-4d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:46:37 +0100 Received: from cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com ([86.24.57.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:46:37 +0100 Received: from yhvh2000 by cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:46:37 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-devel@gnu.org From: William Stevenson Subject: Re: /etc/TODO: define-minor-mode & minor-mode-list Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:46:24 +0000 Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8739avfeyn.fsf@gmail.com> References: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cpc10-belf9-2-0-cust411.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:mPtpdTP75dfIpqKOt0j6ut/QXkc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:46:42 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 03:05, William Stevenson wrote: > >> I'm confused about minor-mode-list. Why are some minor-modes added in >> the definition even though they are defined with define-minor-mode? > > Likely because these minor modes were converted to use > define-minor-mode, but not removed from minor-mode-list. > >> I also found that abbrev-mode remained in the list if it was removed >> from this definition. > > define-minor-mode (conditionally) calls add-minor-mode, which does > > (unless (memq toggle minor-mode-list) > (push toggle minor-mode-list)) > > so minor modes defined with define-minor-mode will end in the list. > For preloaded minor modes, that's already so: > > emacs -Q --batch --eval "(princ (length minor-mode-list))" => 30 Sorry, I didn't explain clearly. I found that abbrev-mode was the _only_ mode that could be removed from the definition and still end up in the list. And my confusion arose from my inability to see what caused this when all 5 of these modes are defined using define-minor-mode. For example: (defvar minor-mode-list '() "List of all minor mode functions.") emacs -Q --batch --eval "(princ (length minor-mode-list))" => 25 >> Also is this todo considered todone? > > There are 300+ instances of "(defun .*-mode " in the sources. Not all > are really modes, and many are major modes, but surely there are still > unconverted minor modes. Thanks for your reply, I will do a thorough search. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 21:51:21 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQI5-000247-6w for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48411) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQI2-00022E-KV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQI1-0003gC-P7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46253) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQI1-0003g8-Lw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:17 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:37004 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQI0-0003Ps-F8; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:17 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: Could distributed tarballs be compressed with xz instead of bzip2? References: <20261.9100.530243.54527@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:51:09 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20261.9100.530243.54527@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> (Ulrich Mueller's message of "Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:46:36 +0100") Message-ID: <871uqfuuzm.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:51:19 -0000 Ulrich Mueller writes: > It would be considerably smaller (sizes are for "bzip2 -9" and "xz -6" > which is the default): > > 51056640 emacs-24.0.92.tar.gz > 41410560 emacs-24.0.92.tar.bz2 > 34443264 emacs-24.0.92.tar.xz > > Also xz can be uncompressed much faster: I'll do that for Emacs 24.4. Thanks for the suggestion. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 21:51:59 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQIh-0002cQ-GP for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48683) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQIf-0002cJ-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQIe-0004E2-9u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46270) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQIe-0004Dy-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:56 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:37005 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQId-0003SB-Ap; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:51:56 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Ulrich Mueller Subject: Re: Could distributed tarballs be compressed with xz instead of bzip2? References: <20261.9100.530243.54527@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <871uqfuuzm.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:51:48 +0800 In-Reply-To: <871uqfuuzm.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:51:09 +0800") Message-ID: <87ty3btge3.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:51:58 -0000 Chong Yidong writes: > I'll do that for Emacs 24.4. Thanks for the suggestion. Whoops, I mean 24.1. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 22:10:35 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQah-0001hk-Sd for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:10:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQaf-0001hd-Ff for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:10:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQae-00070H-9X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:10:33 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46441) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQae-00070D-4M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:10:32 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:37009 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQad-0007Qo-Ao; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:10:31 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Angelo Graziosi Subject: Re: AUCTeX Mode References: <4F22604C.8090507@alice.it> <4F2518D5.1090208@alice.it> <4F28748A.1050103@alice.it> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:10:22 +0800 In-Reply-To: <4F28748A.1050103@alice.it> (Angelo Graziosi's message of "Wed, 01 Feb 2012 00:08:58 +0100") Message-ID: <87pqdztfj5.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen?= Fenn , emacs X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:10:34 -0000 Angelo Graziosi writes: > Hi guys... > > any news? which is the final decision? We won't do it in Emacs 24.1 for sure, since we are well into pretest. I have no major objection to including AUCTeX in future Emacs releases, if the AUCTeX developers are amenable and willing to help do the integration work (stuff like using define-derived-mode and completion-at-point). (Personally, I prefer using tex-mode.el because AUCTeX "feels" a bit too heavyweight for me, but I can see how AUCTeX's features would be a draw for most.) From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 22:14:14 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsQeE-0002oJ-1L for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:14:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33003) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQeB-0002lP-3S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:14:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQe9-0007n0-Sm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:14:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46472) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQe9-0007mw-NU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:14:09 -0500 Received: from bb121-7-229-69.singnet.com.sg ([121.7.229.69]:37010 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsQe9-0007YB-1j; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:14:09 -0500 From: Chong Yidong To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: /etc/TODO: define-minor-mode & minor-mode-list References: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:14:01 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Wed, 1 Feb 2012 03:32:48 +0100") Message-ID: <87liontfd2.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.10 Cc: William Stevenson , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:14:12 -0000 Juanma Barranquero writes: > There are 300+ instances of "(defun .*-mode " in the sources. Not all > are really modes, and many are major modes, but surely there are still > unconverted minor modes. Probably many of those major modes should use define-derived-mode and inherit from text-mode/prog-mode/special-mode. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jan 31 22:40:06 2012 Received: from list by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.71) id 1RsR3G-000774-Kf for mharc-emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:40:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43613) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsR3D-00075B-A9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:40:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsR3A-0003Po-Gh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:40:02 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:52426) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RsR3A-0003Pk-9l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:40:00 -0500 Received: by dadv6 with SMTP id v6so571040dad.0 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vk08gZIvNDPXeryY72pjYPO1S4TEl39RqQu2O7RbcHc=; b=V09jAALGxMC90rQV2ZnFdFT1w8BOY3GY1YJkIW9ijv9JFpJxyNM3m2v7qH4Yc8OzVO 49vO2p8uihvJtTTa8RWOoBanHAlHTQT43uH4A6e09PwMx1UcNICb/uYhveovME/aFz2l E3HsUy1KupBt0hn7wDRYj42/gXUBMXOUStvb4= Received: by 10.68.75.135 with SMTP id c7mr55109514pbw.43.1328067599193; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:39:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8739avfeyn.fsf@gmail.com> References: <877h07fgua.fsf@gmail.com> <8739avfeyn.fsf@gmail.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 04:39:19 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: /etc/TODO: define-minor-mode & minor-mode-list To: William Stevenson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.210.41 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:40:04 -0000 On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 03:46, William Stevenson wrote: > Sorry, I didn't explain clearly. I found that abbrev-mode was the _only_ > mode that could be removed from the definition and still end up in the > list. And my confusion arose from my inability to see what caused this > when all 5 of these modes are defined using define-minor-mode. These modes are all auto-loaded, but if you look at the definition of define-minor-mode, you'll see that the part that invokes add-minor-mode (and so, sets minor-mode-list) is not autoloaded (it's after :autoload-end). So these modes do not enter into minor-mode-list until they are run. I haven't checked, but I suspect that abbrev-mode is run at some point during initialization and so it does enter the list. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma