From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 01 05:31:05 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B8zTU-0004vS-Bl for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:31:04 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B8zTL-0004tY-Pk for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:30:55 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B8zSp-0004OC-9y for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:30:54 -0500 Received: from [62.49.20.1] (helo=joker.webarchitects.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1B8zSD-0003hW-Gk for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:29:45 -0500 Message-ID: <406BEF08.1070309@mkdoc.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:29:28 +0100 From: Adam Moran Organization: http://mkdoc.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031114 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Fsfe-uk] [Fsfe-ie] Conference on software patents and free software at European Parliament X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:30:56 -0000 *****************PLEASE HELP TO WIDESPREAD*************** 14-15 April 2004 : Brussels is the Hub to go Conferences and LUG in Brussels European Parliament Chaired by Dany Cohn-Bendit MEP ___________________________________________________ http://plone.ffii.org/events/2004/bxl04 http://www.greens-efa.org/agenda http://laurence.domainepublic.net Most legal frame related to new technologies is cooked up at Brussels. To get a feet into European Parliament's door and show that you care right before the election. Its future Members will decide on the patentability of software, on data privacy issues, TPRM, and so on), join an install party within parliament (and bring your favourite MEP with you), attend a panel with eg Alan COX, Georg GREVE, Jon Lech JOHANSEN (of decss fame), participate in a guided tour through brussels (anti-swpats "demo"), meet LUGs and programming rights groups from all over the place, and some chaotic nerds of FFII. A Wiki DSL connection will be available. On 14 April evening, there will be a diner/party at restaurant La Tentation, in the center of Brussels. http://plone.ffii.org/events/2004 (also to book you hotel). Entrance is free however to access the building you have to register online before 7 April http://www.greens-efa.org/agenda Contact : lvandewalle@europarl.eu.int euroG/LUGparty Brussels European Parliament room ASP 1G2 15 April 2004 ____________________________________________ The Greens in European parliament invite representatives of GNU/Linux Users Groups of the 25 Member States of the European Union to come to Brussels to - enhance the networking among the free software community in Europe(in particular with the New Member states) - prepare the second reading on the software patents directive - show inside EP what free software is, how it works and what ideas lie behind - participate to the FFII conference and demo against software patents on 14 April Programme and registration on http://www.greens-efa.org lvandewalle@europarl.eu.int PROGRAMME 9.00-11.00 25 G/LUGs for a Free Europe Gathering European GNU/Linux Users Groups and associations for the promotion of free software : BxLUG - Belgium, RWO -Plug - Poland, Vrijschrift - The Netherlands, LiLux - Luxemburg, FFS Software - Austria, APRIL - HNS-info.net - France, GUUG - Germany, SSLUG - Sweden&Denmark, LUGOS - Slovenia, Debian - Latvia, AKL - Lithuania, LugRoma - Italy, Grece, Cyprus, Finland, Estonia, ... 11.00-12.30 Linux Install Party for MEps with Monica Frassoni Dany Cohn-Bendit, Hiltrud Breyer, Bart Staes, ... organized by BxLug 15.00 PANEL I: FAIR USE/COPIE PRIV E Gwen Hinze(Electronic Fronteer Foundation) Laurence Lebersorg(Test-Achat Belgium) Jon Lech Johansen(DVD-Jon) 16.00 PANEL II: FREE/OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE Cristiano Paggetti(Italy): eGovernment Andrea Glorioso (Italy) : Free Content Herman Bruynickx(Belgium): Free software in education Jens Muhlhaus(Germany): Public administration: Linux f r Munchen 17.00 PANEL III : FREE AS IN FREEDOM Georg Greve, FSF Europe (Germany) Agenda 1910 17.30 Alan Cox www.linux.org.uk co-signatory of the letter sent by Linus Torvalds to the President of EP against software patents(UK) ---------- Teresa Hackett 114 Cedar House Mespil Estate, Sussex Road Dublin 4, Ireland Email: teresahackett@eircom.net Mobile +353 87 6253768 ---------- _______________________________________________ fsfe-ie@fsfeurope.org mailing list List information: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/fsfe-ie Public archive: https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-ie From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 01 15:46:21 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B994u-00068J-5R for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:46:20 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B994o-00060F-SY for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:46:14 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B993g-0005Ib-0S for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:45:35 -0500 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B993f-0005HH-DT for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:45:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD2BE6E0B for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:43:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23436-04 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:43:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (m455-mp1.cvx1-a.big.dial.ntli.net [213.104.109.199]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F38AE6DFB for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:43:38 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:43:36 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Govt considering tax on Free Software? X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:46:17 -0000 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1646201 Apparently, the Treasury is *considering* taxing FLOSS on the basis that, often being given away with no charge, they're losing out on income tax. The AFFS really should respond to this. Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 01 15:58:31 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B99Gg-00065l-QP for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:58:30 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99Gd-000635-6o for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:58:27 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99A2-00031u-Vv for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:52:10 -0500 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B999p-0002qa-Le for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:51:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F86E6D83 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:50:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23549-07 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:50:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (m455-mp1.cvx1-a.big.dial.ntli.net [213.104.109.199]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264BFE6DFB for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:50:01 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:49:59 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404012149.59750.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: Govt considering tax on Free Software? X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:58:29 -0000 Please ingore me, in future I should check the date before I browse Slashdot. It was an April Fools. *rolls eyes* Tom On Thursday 01 Apr 2004 21:43, Tom Chance wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1646201 > > Apparently, the Treasury is *considering* taxing FLOSS on the basis that, > often being given away with no charge, they're losing out on income tax. > The AFFS really should respond to this. > > Regards, > Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 01 15:59:22 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B99HV-0006MF-OE for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:59:21 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99HT-0006M4-OE for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:59:19 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99Gw-0006Am-Mq for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:59:18 -0500 Received: from [149.170.192.65] (helo=reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B99Gw-0006A2-4w for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:58:46 -0500 Received: from server2.nims.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.39.59] helo=student.mmu.ac.uk) by reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1B99Gu-0004IT-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:58:44 +0100 Received: from e82.csh.hor.mmu.ac.uk 03078811 [149.170.53.160] by student.mmu.ac.uk with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.22.1.13 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:58:44 +0100 From: David Johnson To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Govt considering tax on Free Software? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:58:59 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404012158.59741.dj@david-web.co.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:59:20 -0000 On Thursday 01 Apr 2004 21:43, Tom Chance wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1646201 > > Apparently, the Treasury is *considering* taxing FLOSS on the basis that, > often being given away with no charge, they're losing out on income tax. > The AFFS really should respond to this. > That's not the only problem on the horizon. It also seems that Linus is going to start charging for Linux starting from kernel 2.7 - $1 per CPU: http://trends.newsforge.com/trends/04/03/06/139232.shtml?tid=149 Maybe "other systems" really are cheaper after all??? -- David Johnson http://www.david-web.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 01 16:14:52 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B99WC-0007qZ-JY for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:14:32 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99VR-0006gG-Qx for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:13:45 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B99Tg-0005Cy-K0 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:12:29 -0500 Received: from [217.42.92.80] (helo=wolfbone.ath.cx) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B99TG-0004Xa-6Z for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:11:30 -0500 Received: by wolfbone.ath.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1F0D817CD6D; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:11:28 +0100 (BST) From: "P.L.Hayes" To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Govt considering tax on Free Software? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:11:27 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404012211.27736.paul@wolfbone.ath.cx> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:14:23 -0000 On Thursday 01 April 2004 21:43, Tom Chance wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1646201 > > Apparently, the Treasury is *considering* taxing FLOSS on the basis that, > often being given away with no charge, they're losing out on income tax. > The AFFS really should respond to this. > > Regards, > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > Fsfe-uk mailing list > Fsfe-uk@gnu.org > http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk Heh! In today's other news, following complaints from the catering, food processing and agricultural industries, the government has decided to tax people who grow edible plants in their gardens and window-boxes, keep chickens or other edible or dairy animals, or provide culinary services to their friends and relatives without charge. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 02 04:00:42 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1B9KW6-0008Lc-P3 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:59:10 -0500 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B9KVi-0007nA-7R for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:58:46 -0500 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B9KS7-0004cP-Lm for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:55:35 -0500 Received: from [80.0.192.110] (helo=ccserver.keris.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B9KS4-0004TX-Nf for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:55:00 -0500 Received: from ccrough by ccserver.keris.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B9KRq-0000po-00; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:54:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:54:46 +0100 From: Chris Croughton To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Govt considering tax on Free Software? Message-ID: <20040402095446.A2026@keris.net> References: <200404012143.36669.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <200404012211.27736.paul@wolfbone.ath.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200404012211.27736.paul@wolfbone.ath.cx>; from paul@wolfbone.ath.cx on Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 10:11:27PM +0100 Organization: Keristor Systems Sender: Chris Croughton X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:59:05 -0000 On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 10:11:27PM +0100, P.L.Hayes wrote: > On Thursday 01 April 2004 21:43, Tom Chance wrote: > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1646201 > > > > Apparently, the Treasury is *considering* taxing FLOSS on the basis that, > > often being given away with no charge, they're losing out on income tax. > > The AFFS really should respond to this. > > Heh! In today's other news, following complaints from the catering, food > processing and agricultural industries, the government has decided to tax > people who grow edible plants in their gardens and window-boxes, keep > chickens or other edible or dairy animals, or provide culinary services to > their friends and relatives without charge. The trouble is that with the current government idiocies both are all too believable. Perhaps if they did tax home food production people might finally realise it and do something... Chris C From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 04 12:52:16 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BAAqo-0004wY-57 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:52:02 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BAAqd-0004bj-J0 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:51:51 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BAApr-0003PJ-E4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:51:36 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BAApq-0003Le-29 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:51:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B40E6EE7 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:49:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00832-05 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:49:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from babylon.local.lan (dsl213-218-232-193.as15444.net [213.218.232.193]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEECE6A97 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:49:19 +0100 (BST) From: Kevin Donnelly To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 16:55:31 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200404041755.31735.kevin@dotmon.com> Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Eight IT Textbooks, 4,031 Pages, 17 Mentions of Linux X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: kevin@dotmon.com List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 16:51:58 -0000 Food for thought: http://www.linuxinsider.com/perl/story/33301.html -- Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 05 09:07:28 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BATp1-00027s-VT for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:07:27 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BAToy-00027V-VC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:07:24 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BAToS-00022z-3R for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:07:23 -0400 Received: from [146.87.255.98] (helo=iapetus.salford.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BAToR-00022E-IL for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:06:51 -0400 Received: (qmail 93671 invoked by uid 1236); 5 Apr 2004 13:06:47 -0000 Received: from paul@all-the-johnsons.co.uk by pan.salford.ac.uk by uid 401 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamuko: 0.65. uvscan: v4.2.40/v4347. spamassassin: 2.61. Clear:RC:1(146.87.55.8):. Processed in 0.365206 secs); 05 Apr 2004 13:06:47 -0000 Received: from [146.87.55.8] (HELO [146.87.55.8]) (146.87.55.8) by iapetus.salford.ac.uk (qpsmtpd/0.27-dev) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:06:47 +0100 From: PFJ To: fsfe-uk Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GTs4D2GHR1m29ftyCMh+" Message-Id: <1081170406.26374.52.camel@jeeves.music.salford.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:06:46 +0100 Subject: [Fsfe-uk] [Fwd: [off-topic] NO Software Patents in Europe] X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:07:25 -0000 --=-GTs4D2GHR1m29ftyCMh+ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-HStW0t89enT1aS62sgI5" --=-HStW0t89enT1aS62sgI5 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has Europe become this stupid? --=20 "Discovery is, in it's essence, a matter of re-arranging or transforming evidence in such a way that one is enabled to go beyond the evidence so re-assembled to additional new insights" - Bruner --=-HStW0t89enT1aS62sgI5 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Forwarded message - [off-topic] NO Software Patents in Europe Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nodoid@ukpost.com Delivered-To: nodoid@ukpost.com Received: from raq344.uk2net.com (raq344.uk2net.com [213.239.42.177]) by mail.ukpost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C771F8053 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:00:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from hormel.redhat.com (hormel.redhat.com [209.132.177.30]) by raq344.uk2net.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07374 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:05:00 +0100 Received: from listman.util.phx.redhat.com (listman.util.phx.redhat.com [10.8.4.110]) by hormel.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE9473A91; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by listman.util.phx.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i35D0lRV024859 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:00:47 -0400 Received: (from mail@localhost) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i35D0lo14716 for fedora-list@listman.util.phx.redhat.com; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:00:47 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [172.16.48.31]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i35D0lj14712 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:00:47 -0400 Received: from fep04-svc.swip.net (fep04.swip.net [130.244.199.132]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i35D0j5D028415 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:00:45 -0400 Received: from [213.101.200.56] by fep04-svc.swip.net with ESMTP id <20040405130039.DDYE12365.fep04-svc.swip.net@[213.101.200.56]> for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 15:00:39 +0200 From: Matias Feliciano To: fedora-list@redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1081170034.11468.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 (1.4.6-1) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 15:00:34 +0200 X-RedHat-Spam-Score: 0 X-loop: fedora-list@redhat.com Subject: [off-topic] NO Software Patents in Europe X-BeenThere: fedora-list@redhat.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: junk Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases List-Id: For users of Fedora Core releases List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com Errors-To: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://bh.udev.org/filez/swpat/onlinedemo2/demopage-en-1.06.html The Commission and the Council of Ministers are covertly pushing for unlimited patentability of software, heavily lobbied by multinationals and patent lawyers. They are ignoring the democratically voted decision of the European Parliament from 24 september 2003, which has the support of more than 300.000 citizens, 2.000.000 SMEs, dozens of economists and scientists. =20 It's up to you to join this online protest. Thanks. --=20 fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list --=-HStW0t89enT1aS62sgI5-- --=-GTs4D2GHR1m29ftyCMh+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAcVnmdhM/KdX2XRURAi3rAKCz2zh67u71ZMPtWn7iwyTHiEAF+ACdFya/ 6E1+OX4SWuhHX0c5GeWq1rA= =qntD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GTs4D2GHR1m29ftyCMh+-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 07 11:08:52 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEfc-0005PE-Bd for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:52 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEfT-0005OD-Qy for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:43 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEeu-0005GP-S4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:41 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.44] (helo=mta04-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEeu-0005Fe-HH for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:08 -0400 Received: from neptune ([81.106.181.26]) by mta04-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040407150741.TBMX1202.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@neptune> for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:07:41 +0100 Received: from 192.168.0.50 by neptune ([192.168.0.2] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:07:04 +0100 From: ian To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1081350531.25892.99.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4-8mdk Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:08:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0g - Registered Subject: [Fsfe-uk] E-learning strategy analysis published X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:08:49 -0000 The DfES has just published an analysis of the reponses in the E-learning strategy consultation document. I haven't read them yet but the files are in Word and Powerpoint format. This is contrary to the E-envoy offices policy for distribution of public documents. While the Word document will open in OpenOffice.org it does not position the graphics accurately. There really is no need for this to be a Word document. Its not very long and could easily have been displayed as an HTML page or pdf. Please E-mail complaints.peu@dfes.gsi.gov.uk A more comprehensive complaints procedure is at http://www.dfes.gov.uk/contactus/complaint.shtml Please get as many people to complain (politely) as possible so they start to take these issues seriously. Thanks, -- ian From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 07 11:09:05 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEfo-0005TJ-Qt for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:09:04 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEfk-0005SD-Sh for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:09:00 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEfA-0005Ie-Vj for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:56 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBEf7-0005HD-9c for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:08:21 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BBEew-000428-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:08:10 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BBBfh-00055G-00 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 12:56:45 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:56:45 +0100 To: AFFS mailing list Message-ID: <20040407115644.GB19425@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: AFFS mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard Subject: [Fsfe-uk] AFFSAC 2004 and AFFS AGM X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:09:02 -0000 Dear all, as 15 MAY 2004 seems to be free from conflicting events, we will hold AFFSAC 2004 and AFFS's AGM on that date. So far we have three offers at hand for the venue: - Handsworth Grammar School, Birmingham (room offered for free) - Aston Uni, Birmingham (room GBP 170 + VAT for up to 99 people) - UMIST or UofM, Manchester (similar price to Aston Uni) If someone can offer another venue, please email frontdesk@affs.org.uk with prices as soon as possible. Otherwise we will choose between these with Handsworth Grammar School being the clear favourite at the moment. We're also playing with the idea of selling stand space to interested companies or organisations wanting to exhibit their free software services, solutions or products at AFFSAC 2004. If someone is interested in this possibility, please contact frontdesk@affs.org.uk to discuss details. The event will be free to AFFS members (same as last year). Unless we manage to attract enough extra funding by selling stand space, catering will not be included (again same as last year, we should be able to organise at least a tea / coffee maker and a few cups, but not more). In that case we will compile extra information for people about what food they can get where and perhaps priming a local establishment to take a large number of people. The programme will be similar in that we start off with presentations for AFFSAC followed by at least a two hour time slot for the AGM at the end of the event. Starting and finishing times will be convenient for same day travel to and from the venue. Interested speakers can contact frontdesk@affs.org.uk. Further details and an official call for presentations will follow shortly. Concerning new applications to join AFFS, we will follow the same procedure as last year: Applications received more than 21 days before the AGM (15 MAY 2004 - 21 days = 24 APR 2004) are processed as normal and can vote at the AGM. Applications received after this date, will be put on hold and you will be able to attend AFFSAC and the AGM, but you will not be allowed to vote at the AGM. These applications are then formally processed on 15 MAY 2004 after the end of the AGM. As the two year term of the current committee is coming to an end, we will need new nominations for committee members and most of all a quorable AGM to elect new or reelect existing committee members! A separate call for this will be issued with the official AGM invitation to all AFFS members. Another important issue is the framework for free software grants, which I will follow up again on this list soon, so that it can be thoroughly discussed on the list and then be decided upon at the AGM. We will be discussing changes to our constitution too, to make it more workable. The current constitution is mainly copied from a template and has proven to have several problems with an organisation as distributed across one country as ours. Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 08 10:40:12 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBahQ-0002Fz-15 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:40:12 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBahJ-0002Ax-Qt for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:40:05 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBage-0001j5-7P for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:39:55 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.45] (helo=mta05-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBagd-0001iJ-Mm for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:39:23 -0400 Received: from neptune ([81.106.181.26]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040408143809.XPXE4091.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@neptune> for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:38:12 +0100 Received: from 192.168.0.50 by neptune ([192.168.0.1] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:38:19 +0100 From: ian To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-13 Message-Id: <1081435208.3599.71.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4-8mdk Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:40:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0g - Registered Subject: [Fsfe-uk] E-learning strategy X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:40:07 -0000 Thanks to those who have already responded. The more the better. It might be helpful to know that the E-envoy says this 4.3.4 Microsoft Word (.DOC)=20 Documents can also be saved in Microsoft Word format. A range of free Word readers is available from Microsoft. This is the least desirable format as it is proprietary and it cannot be guaranteed that a reader exists for a particular user=FFs computer.=20 at http://www.e-envoy.gov.uk/Resources/WebHandbookIndex2Article/fs/en?CONTENT_= ID=3D4000213&chk=3DDX7NxX I haven't used this reference so please feel free to do so. Someone might also like to point out that if they use OpenOffice.org they can save directly as a pdf file. Thanks for your help. --=20 ian From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 07:14:05 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBtwY-0004CK-CU for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:13:06 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBtpq-0002g6-Mo for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:06:10 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBtlN-0001Wp-2K for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:02:05 -0400 Received: from [212.42.179.107] (helo=fortytwo.seamlessrecruitment.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBtlM-0001Gt-CD for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:01:32 -0400 Received: from monnsta.net (roi.seamlessrecruitment.com [10.0.0.3]) by fortytwo.seamlessrecruitment.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF8F443A425 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2004 11:56:45 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <40768189.6000902@monnsta.net> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:57:13 +0100 From: Matthew King User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040306) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Buglet X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: matthew.king@seamlessrecruitment.com List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:12:53 -0000 I've just signed up (you'd have thought I'd do this ages ago) and noticed a typo on /joinup.html, where the 'Newletter' is referred to. Matthew -- GIT/CM d+(-) s++:- a-->? C++++ UL++++$ P+++>++++ L++>++++ E>++ W--$ N o? K++ w--- O-- M V? PS+>+++ PE-- Y+>++ PGP++@ t+ 5- X- R tv b+++>++++ DI++ D++ G e(*) h!>- r--- y->+++ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 08:08:14 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBujk-0006ML-7g for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 08:03:56 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBujB-0006Es-WD for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 08:03:21 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBueJ-0004oF-VC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:58:20 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBuco-0004R4-M4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:56:46 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3281A27DED for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:56:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Buglet From: Alex Hudson To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <40768189.6000902@monnsta.net> References: <40768189.6000902@monnsta.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1081511787.2203.35.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:56:27 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:03:53 -0000 On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 11:57, Matthew King wrote: > I've just signed up (you'd have thought I'd do this ages ago) and > noticed a typo on /joinup.html, where the 'Newletter' is referred to. Should really be reported to webmaster@, but thanks - both for noticing the error and for joining :o) Cheers, Alex. PS. Yes, you should have joined ages ago ;) From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 10:50:28 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKu-00083n-6r for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:50:28 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKr-00082e-TB for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:50:25 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKK-0007kf-5m for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:50:24 -0400 Received: from [212.74.114.47] (helo=mk-smarthost-8.mail.uk.tiscali.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKJ-0007jJ-Dz for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:49:51 -0400 Received: from ppp-225-5-182.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.225.5.182]:4310 helo=ucl.ac.uk) by mk-smarthost-8.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxHQ-0002EP-7D; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:46:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4076B802.6070304@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:49:38 +0100 From: James Heald User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031208 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org, free-sklyarov-uk@xenoclast.org, fsfe-ie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: [Fsfe-uk] FFII news: ACCU conference panel on software patents, Oxford, Thursday April 15. X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 14:50:26 -0000 -- FFII News Release -- 9 April 2004 -- +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ -- For immediate release -- Please redistribute widely -- ACCU conference panel on software patents, Oxford, Thursday April 15. --------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition to the events organised in Brussels by the FFII next week on Wednesday and Thursday, http://plone.ffii.org/events/2004/bxl04/ there will be a lively discussion of Software Patents in Oxford in the UK, on Thursday afternoon at the ACCU conference at the Randolph Hotel: http://www.accu.org/conference/opensource.html The intention is to give over as much of the session as possible to real software developers, speaking from the floor, to explain what they think of software patents, whether or not they are in favour, and how they think the industry would be affected. Responding to their comments will be a well-informed panel made up of Dr Puay Tang (Research Fellow, Sussex University), Steve Probert (Deputy Director, UK Patent Office), James Heald (UK Co-ordinator, FFII), and Dr Sarah Weir (Senior Business Manager, Cancer Research Technology). [Further details below]. Registration for the conference costs £160 per day, or £595 for the full conference, with reductions available for students and academics. Journalists can be admitted free, but must be accredited first. For details and contact address, see http://www.accu.org/conference/press.html The ACCU spring conference (Association of C and C++ Users) is a professional conference now in its tenth year, typically attracting several hundred leading software developers, and extensive media. http://www.accu.org/conference/index.html The session on Software Patents (Thurs 4pm to 5.30) is timetabled as the conclusion of a special two-day theme, running alongside the more detailed technical strands, to take stock of Open Source in the software industry, five years on from the initial hype -- from a business perspective, where does it now stand, and where it is going ? This strand is intended to be of more general wider interest to journalists and decision-makers, as well as the high-calibre developers at the conference. It will kick off on Wednesday with a special keynote address from renowned Open Source thinker and speaker Eric Raymond, and panels include the latest developments for Open Source in e-Government, Open Source and Open Standards in Finance, a multitude of case studies, and "Open Source Business Models That Work" -- all presented by speakers right at the cutting edge of current developments. For full details see, http://www.accu.org/conference/opensource.html It should be an interesting couple of days! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Details: ACCU Conference Panel on Software Patentability (Randolph Hotel, Oxford, Thursday 15 April, 4pm to 5.30) Panel chair: Andy Robinson (Reportlab), overall co-ordinator for the Open Source strand of the conference. Panellists (proposed speaking order): * Dr Puay Tang (Sussex University), to introduce the economics of patentability in general, and some of the particular pros and cons of software patentability. Dr Tang is a Research Fellow at the Science and Technology Policy Research Unit (SPRU), University of Sussex. Her research focusses on intellectual property rights and management; and the application and development of new information and communication technologies. She has done extensive research on the implications of software patentability, and wrote a report on the subject for the European Commission in 2001. * Steve Probert (Patent Office), to explain the Patent Office view, and who can speak authoritatively about what is and is not patentable both now and under the latest versions of the proposed EU Directive. Steve Probert is a Deputy Director of the UK Patent Office. He has handed down several decisions on "computer-implemented invention" patents, and now has the immediate responsibility in the Patent Office for technical aspects of the negotiations on the EU software patents Directive. * James Heald (FFII), to explain some of the fears which have motivated the Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure's campaign against the directive. James Heald is the FFII's UK co-ordinator. * Dr Sarah Weir (Cancer Research Technology), to discuss and contrast the experience of patents in the pharmaceutical/biotech sector, where patents are long established, and widely considered to be essential. Dr Weir oversees the protection and commercialisation of research from the research portfolios funded by Cancer Research UK and other funding bodies both in the UK and abroad. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The overall session length is 90 minutes, and there has been a lot of interest from attendees wanting to make floor speeches, from a variety of different perspectives. The session will therefore take the form of opening remarks from the panel of no more than about five minutes each, followed by as many comments from the floor as possible, with further responses from the panel as appropriate. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 11:00:13 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxUL-0003MT-AL for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:00:13 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxT3-00033n-To for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:58:53 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxMX-0000Ld-GF for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:52:41 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKi-0007TZ-Cu for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:50:16 -0400 Received: from [212.74.114.47] (helo=mk-smarthost-8.mail.uk.tiscali.com) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxKh-0003KX-06 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:50:15 -0400 Received: from ppp-225-5-182.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.225.5.182]:4313 helo=ucl.ac.uk) by mk-smarthost-8.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxHf-0002KP-0O; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:47:07 +0100 Message-ID: <4076B811.2000404@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:49:53 +0100 From: James Heald User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031208 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org, free-sklyarov-uk@xenoclast.org, fsfe-ie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: [Fsfe-uk] FFII news: EU Software patents, round 2 -- the gloves are off X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:00:11 -0000 -- FFII News Release -- 9 April 2004 -- +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ -- For immediate release -- Please redistribute widely -- The gloves come off for Round Two in the EU fight over Software Patents. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2004/04/09 For immediate Release After months of closed back room discussions, the Irish Presidency of the European Union has referred the proposed EU Directive on software patents back up to "political" level. The Irish want members of the Council of Ministers of the member states to agree to drop all objections by May. The Presidency proposed draft text rejects all clarifying amendments made by the European Parliament and instead pushes for direct patentability of computer programs, data structures and process descriptions. A last ditch attempt by the Luxembourg delegation to ensure interoperability with patented standards was rejected. In support of the Council's position, the Patent Department at Nokia is collecting signatures from top company executives for a "Call for Action" in favour of the Presidency text. In the other corner, supporters of the European Parliament's position have arranged conferences to explain the dangers of software patents, and are mobilising for a "net strike" and a rally in Brussels on April 14th under the slogan "No Software Patents -- Power to the Parliament". They are hoping for a repeat of the impact of similar actions in the run-up to September 2003, which helped convince the European Parliament to vote clearly against software patents. * Software Patents return to the EU Political Centre Stage * New Pro-Patent Lobbying Efforts from Nokia * Reactions by MEPs to the Council Working Party position * Presidency Text Rejects Interoperability * Net Strike, Rallies, Conferences * Annotated Links * Media contacts * About the FFII -- www.ffii.org * Permanent URL of this Press Release Software Patents return to the EU Political Centre Stage -------------------------------------------------------- Following months hidden away deep in the Brussels undergrowth, debate on the controversial European Directive on software patents is returning back to the political high level. On Tuesday 6 April, the Irish Presidency of the EU referred the issue to the CoRePer committee of Member States' Permanent Representatives, the traditional venue for difficult political horse trading. In response, campaigners against software patents have announced a day of mass action in Brussels on Wednesday 14 April, culminating in a high-level conference in the European Parliament building itself. Additionally, they are urging their supporters to go on "net strike" next week, blacking out the front pages of their websites to highlight the possible consequences of software patents. (http://demo.ffii.org) The move by the Irish Presidency on Tuesday to refer the dossier was not unexpected, but marks a significant return of the dossier to the political centre-stage. According to one source familiar with the Presidency position, "there has been some clear progress in the Working Group on problems that some of the Member States had had with some particular questions of wording; but there are still significant differences between Member States on some of the most fundamental issues. The general feeling is that work at the technical level has gone as far as it can, and a strong input from the political level is now going to be needed, if general agreement is to be achieved by May". The member states are supposed to sign off their common position at a meeting of the Competiveness Council of Ministers to be held in Brussels on May 17-18. New Pro-Patent Lobbying Efforts from Nokia ------------------------------------------ Meanwhile, lobbyists in favour of software patents are also gearing up for the fight. FFII has obtained a copy of a round-robin letter being circulated by Nokia's Tim Frain (Nokia/Southwood) and Dany Ducoulombier (Nokia/Brussels) for pro-patent signatures before April 8th. The letter calls on ministers to drop their objections, and to support a draft text issued by the Irish Presidency on March 17th. (http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/europarl0309/nokia0404/index.en.html) "All of Europe's innovators, including individual inventors, small and medium size enterprises (SMEs), as well as large multinational companies, require patents to protect their inventions, provide incentives to undertake research and development in Europe, and to promote licensing and technology transfer", claims the letter. "Nokia doesn't seem to be counting Opera among the European innovators", comments Håkon Wium Lie, CTO of Opera Software Inc, an innovation leader in the web browser market and producer of much of the software used in Nokia's mobile phones. And, as Hartmut Pilch president of FFII and speaker of the Eurolinux Alliance explains, Opera is just one of "more than 5000 European CTOs and 2000 CEOs who have publicly endorsed our petitions against software patents". Pilch continues: "The Nokia patent department's claim that patents are needed to fund research in the software sector looks like a desperate attempt to mobilise the misconceptions of people who are not familiar with the ICT sector. All the economic studies we know of, including those ordered by the European Commission and by member state governments, have shown that software patents are only of very secondary importance as a means of securing investment in research and development. The main drivers of competitive advantage are copyright, in-house capability, unavoidable complexity, and the ability to react quickly to customer needs. In fact, according to the most detailed economic studies, patent investments in the United States have actually tended to reduce spending and divert it *away* from R&D investment in this sector. These points came out particularly clearly in the testimony given by directors of large companies to the US Federal Trade Commission at governmental hearings in the USA last year". "The letter from Nokia is written from a perspective of a corporate patent lawyer concerned about a possible erosion of his department's importance within his company. Ministers should see it for what it is." Reactions by MEPs to the Council Working Party position ------------------------------------------------------- The proposed Presidency draft text for the Directive, recommended in the Nokia letter, is singled out for particularly vehement attack by the software patent opponents. According to Nokia, the proposed Presidency text is to be commended for "presenting a balanced text which preserves the incentives for European innovation in sectors as diverse as telecommunications, information technology, consumer electronics, household appliances, transportation and medical instruments while responding to the European Parliament's call for limitations to ensure that patentability does not extend into non-technical areas or unduly hinder interoperability in our increasingly networked society". However, this claim of balance is flatly rejected by campaigners. According to James Heald, FFII's UK co-ordinator, the text is actually "the most extreme yet seen, put together only from the most pro-patent sections of all the previous texts. All of the important amendments passed by the European Parliament in September are completely ignored. The draft text is deliberately blind to all of the problems which the Parliament tried to address". The view is shared by leading MEPs. Piia-Noora Kauppi MEP, Finnish MEP of the European People's Party (Conservatives/Christian Democrats), expresses dismay at the Council Working Party's contempt for parliamentary democracy: "As the Council is trying to look for a compromise with the European Parliament on the proposal for patenting of computer-implemented innovations (software patents), it should base its work on the final decision taken by the plenary session of the Parliament, not on that of the Commission or of the Legal Affairs Committee. Judging from the papers produced so far by the Council's working party, it seems that the Council is not treating the will of Europe's elected legislators with the respect which it deserves". Daniel Cohn-Bendit MEP, chairman of the Greens/EFA group puts it more bluntly: "The Council working party has so far completely failed to address the problems which the European Parliament's Cultural and Industrial Affairs committees tried to solve. They behave in the same way as the Legal Affairs Committee behaved last year, and we can expect that they will fail in the same way. "It is clear that the national patent officials in the Council do not want what they call 'harmonisation' or 'clarification'. They merely want to secure the interests of the patent establishment. If they don't get what they want, they simply bury the directive project and try to find other ways to get around the existing law, whose clarity is so painful to them". Presidency Text Rejects Interoperability ---------------------------------------- FFII's most hollow laughter is directed at the claim that the Irish proposed text would not "unduly hinder interoperability". Jonas Maebe, Belgian speaker of FFII, explains: "The Industry committee, and the Legal Affairs committee, and the full session of the European Parliament, all demanded a special provision to allow data to be inter-converted between different packages and software platforms. Otherwise companies can use software patents to lock in users' data to a particular program or operating system, and competition would be impossible". "It's a systematic problem. Each and every market niche is individually potentially at risk. That's why, in the final vote in September, the European Parliament voted in favour of the provision by 393 votes to 35". "But according to Nokia, the Council Working Party has 'responded' to the European Parliament's call, so everything's all right. And how (despite a valiant last-ditch opposition by the Luxemburgers) does the Working Party propose to respond ? By deleting the European Parliament's clause entirely, and instead replacing it with a recital that says any problems can be left to existing antitrust law". "Remember, this is the antitrust law which has just taken four years, at vast expense, to go after a /single/ accused company, Microsoft; which Microsoft says it can tie up in appeals for another four years; and which at the end of the day looks like the case will be settled with a cosy cross-licensing deal between Microsoft and Sun, and Samba definitely not invited to the party". "One starts to wonder about what kind of idealised dreamworld these people live in." Net Strike, Rallies, Conferences -------------------------------- The FFII is meanwhile mobilising its 50,000 supporters and 300,000 petition signatories to demonstrate both on the Internet and in Brussels on April 14th. The website http://demo.ffii.org states: "In February 2002, the European Commission proposed a directive that would legalise software patents. However, the European Parliament decided in its Plenary Vote of 24th September 2003 to fix all the loopholes in this proposal and explicitly banned software patents. "Currently, the European Council of Ministers is discussing this directive. Their internal working party proposes to simply discard all clarifying amendments from the Parliament. They want to make everything patentable. "That is not an option Europe is willing to accept. We showed them this on 27 August 2003. We will show them again on 14 April 2004. "Black out the front page of your website in protest" The site provides numerous sample strike pages and banners which can be used by webmasters to support the action. The rally begins at 11.30 at Luxemburg Square in Brussels. Participants will wear t-shirts with the slogans "No Software Patents -- Power to the Parliament". There will be speeches and performances. The marchers will thank the European Parliament and protest against the lack of accountability in the Commission, in the Council, and sectoral bodies such as UNICE and EICTA, which they accuse of misrepresenting the industry by leaving policy decisions to specialist patent lawyer committees, similar to the patent working party of the EU Council. The rally will be followed by an interdisciplinary conference in the European Parliament, again room AG2, at 14.00. Among the participants of the intensely prepared discussion agenda are members of the European Parliament, officials from the European Commission, the Council Working Party and the European Patent Office, software developers, economists, and lawyers from all corners of the debate. Full details can be found at: http://plone.ffii.org/events/2004/bxl04/ So far, more than 150 participants have registered with FFII for the event. Media contacts -------------- mail: media at ffii org phone: Hartmut Pilch +49-89-18979927 (German/English/French) Benjamin Henrion +32-498-292771 (French/English) Jonas Maebe +32-485-36-96-45 (Dutch/English/French) Dieter Van Uytvanck +32-499-16-70-10 (Dutch/English/French) Erik Josefsson +46-707-696567 (Swedish/English) James Heald +44 778910 7539 (English) More Contacts to be supplied upon request About the FFII -- www.ffii.org ------------------------------ The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) is a non-profit association registered in Munich, which is dedicated to the spread of data processing literacy. FFII supports the development of public information goods based on copyright, free competition, open standards. More than 300 members, 700 companies and 50,000 supporters have entrusted the FFII to act as their voice in public policy questions in the area of exclusion rights (intellectual property) in data processing. Permanent URL of this Press Release ----------------------------------- http://swpat.ffii.org/news/04/cons0408/index.en.html From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 11:29:16 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxwS-0006l9-6o for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:29:16 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxwP-0006ku-Vc for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:29:13 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxvt-0006dW-6B for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:29:13 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBxvs-0006dS-TO for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 11:28:41 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 402FE1C000A3 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 31632 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:28:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 16:28:02 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: FSFE-UK/ AFFS Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: [Fsfe-uk] NotCon, ICU London, Sun 6 June X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:29:14 -0000 Seen in ntk.net: * NOTCON '04 Call for Participation - Please Redistribute Freely * NotCon '04, Sunday 6th June 2004, Imperial College Union, London http://www.notcon04.com/ Proposals due by: Friday 14th May 2004 I'm interested to hear about any AFFS members and supporters who will be there. Please reply on- or off-list, as you wish. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 09 15:56:27 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BC270-0004su-UF for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:56:26 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BC26w-0004qa-TL for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:56:22 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BC26M-0004dz-VG for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:56:18 -0400 Received: from [217.42.92.80] (helo=wolfbone.ath.cx) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BC26M-0004cb-1e for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:55:46 -0400 Received: by wolfbone.ath.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 47008C1182; Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:55:45 +0100 (BST) From: "P.L.Hayes" To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] FFII news: ACCU conference panel on software patents, Oxford, Thursday April 15. Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:55:44 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <4076B802.6070304@ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <4076B802.6070304@ucl.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404092055.44767.paul@wolfbone.ath.cx> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 19:56:23 -0000 On Friday 09 April 2004 15:49, James Heald wrote: > Panellists (proposed speaking order): > > > * Dr Puay Tang (Sussex University), to introduce the economics of > patentability in general, and some of the particular pros and cons of > software patentability. Well I don't know what her stance is but even if she's anti-swpats I hope she doesn't manage to bamboozle the audience into believing that software patents are purely a matter for consideration by economists and businessmen. Just as I don't expect to find myself prohibited from writing down some minuet I made up or painting a seascape and giving away as many bloody copies as I like, I'll be damned if I'll have people telling me what software I can and cannot write. > * Steve Probert (Patent Office), to explain the Patent Office view, and > who can speak authoritatively about what is and is not patentable both > now and under the latest versions of the proposed EU Directive. > > Steve Probert is a Deputy Director of the UK Patent Office. He has > handed down several decisions on "computer-implemented invention" > patents, and now has the immediate responsibility in the Patent Office > for technical aspects of the negotiations on the EU software patents > Directive. "...and who can speak authoritatively about what is and isn't patentable..." If that's the Patent Office's description Is it just me or does it sound like a declaration of intent to mislead? Well here's another declaration of intent: You can tell Mr. Probert that if the UK Patent Office succeeds in it's abominable and underhand attempts to help make software 'officially' patentable in the UK and Europe, I will ignore such a law as loudly as I can and I hope others will too. Loudly enough perhaps, that the European court of human rights will hear, and restore my right to freedom to engage in the arts and sciences. If they think they can get away with proprietarising an art/science/form of communication simply because it's new and only a few geeks care about it, they are mistaken. > * Dr Sarah Weir (Cancer Research Technology), to discuss and contrast > the experience of patents in the pharmaceutical/biotech sector, where > patents are long established, and widely considered to be essential. > > Dr Weir oversees the protection and commercialisation of research from > the research portfolios funded by Cancer Research UK and other funding > bodies both in the UK and abroad. What's she doing here? Nobody's trying to take away her rights to make her stupid little molecules. What the hell's the pharmaceutical industry got to do with it? Oh yeah! - I had a great idea for a molecule last night, just hang on while I check I've still got that billion quid in my wallet so I can buy a lab to finish off the research and start up a molecule factory.... I read there's a free/OSS in education part to this conference too. Well it just so happens that last week a friend of mine in his final year of physics asked me if I could help him out. He's got some project to do that involves analysing images of the sun from the ESA. He's downloaded some IDL code from somewhere to do the analysis but this code is written (groan!) for reading gifs only. It uses the READ_GIF function which is built in to the proprietary IDL interpreter.... only it isn't built in anymore ! - at least not in the version (5.4) that the university has. Apparently, RS Inc. who make IDL, had a problem with Unisys about licensing the LZW patents and helpfully removed the ability to read and write gifs from version 5.4. At the same time as I was discussing possible solutions to that problem, another physics student said he knew of a third party who's using Excel in his project and wondered what I thought about that. http://www.csdassn.org/software_reports/gnumeric.pdf I hope there's going to be some academic and educational eye-opening at this conference too. Cheers, Paul. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 14 09:19:13 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BDkIK-0003d9-ML for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:19:12 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BDkID-0003c2-23 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:19:05 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BDkHg-0003SJ-Mh for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:19:03 -0400 Received: from [205.188.157.37] (helo=imo-d05.mx.aol.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BDkHg-0003Rt-0m for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:18:32 -0400 Received: from MgtDee@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id k.d.266e8efa (18555); Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:18:25 -0400 (EDT) From: MgtDee@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:18:25 EDT Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] FFII news: ACCU conference panel on software patents, Oxford, T... To: paul@wolfbone.ath.cx, fsfe-uk@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d.266e8efa.2dae9421_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 Cc: X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:19:10 -0000 --part1_d.266e8efa.2dae9421_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps the Pharamacist/biotech person will be talking about the way patents have affected botany, agriculture and gardening. How varieties of plant, including many that have been available for many years now have to be registered and maintained on a register (at a cost only affordable by huge companies) before they can be sold. And of course they cannot be sold except by the owner of the patent. Many long established varieties of flowers, fruits and vegetables are now very rare and indeed threatened by extinction leading to increased vulnerability to desease in the few strains remaining. The only way to keep them going is to create organisations which will propogate and pass them on free since, unregistered, they cannot be bought and sold. Perhaps alternatively, if code could be patented only if it were published for all to see (and improve and register their improvements) it could be a good thing? Mgt --part1_d.266e8efa.2dae9421_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps the Pharamacist/biotech per= son will be talking about the way patents have affected botany, agriculture=20= and gardening. How varieties of plant, including many that have been availab= le for many years now have to be registered and maintained on a register (at= a cost only affordable by huge companies) before they can be sold. And of c= ourse they cannot be sold except by the owner of the patent. Many long estab= lished varieties of flowers, fruits and vegetables are now very rare and ind= eed threatened by extinction leading to increased vulnerability to desease i= n the few strains remaining. The only way to keep them going is to create or= ganisations which will propogate and pass them on free since, unregistered,=20= they cannot be bought and sold.


Perhaps alternatively, if code could  be patented only if it were pu= blished for all to see (and improve and register their improvements) it=20= could be a good thing?

Mgt
--part1_d.266e8efa.2dae9421_boundary-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 15 13:24:57 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEAZ7-0006Zp-UF for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEAZ3-0006U6-KG for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:22:13 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEAYR-0005hF-3U for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:22:06 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BEAXh-0004eY-Dc for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:20:49 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id AEBC94C005EB; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:20:46 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1577 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:20:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:20:27 +0100 Message-ID: <5ea1e3655a7b3bbc2e3916a6e814ba83@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk, fsfe-uk/ AFFS Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: Subject: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxExpo "fringe" meeting: Olympia's Back X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:22:16 -0000 I'm at the Linux Expo next Tuesday only (travel and time pressures). I'd like to meet some free software hackers, learn about recent developments, perhaps create a few if we can, and give others an opportunity to do the same. I was told there is no suitable venue in the show, so I've hired a small hall nearby for an hour (doors 3.20 for 3.30 start, tables to work at rather than talks... talks at AFFSAC next month hopefully). Do you want to come along and do you want to show something off? Please reply off list. Thanks in advance, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 15 14:11:39 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEBKs-0005BI-Oh for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:11:38 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEBKp-00058p-GR for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:11:35 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEBHc-0003gQ-GL for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:08:48 -0400 Received: from [80.84.72.21] (helo=s1.uklinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BEBHb-0003ey-E4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:08:15 -0400 Received: from mail.uklinux.net (mail.uklinux.net [80.84.72.21]) by s1.uklinux.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i3FI85T24712; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:08:06 +0100 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:08:03 +0100 (BST) From: Brian Teeman To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxExpo "fringe" meeting: Olympia's Back In-Reply-To: <5ea1e3655a7b3bbc2e3916a6e814ba83@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: fsfe-uk/ AFFS , debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:11:37 -0000 On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, MJ Ray wrote: > I'm at the Linux Expo next Tuesday only (travel and time pressures). > I'd like to meet some free software hackers, learn about recent > developments, perhaps create a few if we can, and give others an > opportunity to do the same. I was told there is no suitable venue in > the show, so I've hired a small hall nearby for an hour (doors 3.20 > for 3.30 start, tables to work at rather than talks... talks at AFFSAC > next month hopefully). Do you want to come along and do you want to > show something off? > > Please reply off list. Thanks in advance, > Who did you ask?? Not me. I'm in charge of the .Org Village, but then you already know that. There is a suitable venue but once again it looks like you like to do your own thing. Brian .Org-aniser (Why is it that people always try to make life hard) From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 15 18:19:43 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEFCw-0001uN-Fw for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:19:42 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEFCn-0001sG-TN for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:19:33 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEFCF-0001hs-VP for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:19:32 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BEFCF-0001hi-Kh for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:18:59 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E91A1C003F9; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 23:18:57 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 294 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:18:38 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 23:18:37 +0100 Subject: Re: [Debian-uk] Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxExpo "fringe" meeting: Olympia's Back Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: Brian Teeman Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: fsfe-uk/ AFFS , debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:19:40 -0000 On 2004-04-15 19:08:03 +0100 Brian Teeman wrote: > Who did you ask?? I used the show's enquiry form and was answered by James Drake-Brockman. > Not me. I'm in charge of the .Org Village, but then you already know > that. I'm not a .org, so it didn't seem appropriate. Anyway, I was told by the organisers that your venue is only for "informal meetings," not developer meetings with published times. I don't think it's fair of you to criticise me for believing an apparently official answer. If they are giving out the wrong info, that's not my fault. > There is a suitable venue but once again it looks like you like to do > your > own thing. Too late now it's booked. Oh well, so be it. > Brian > .Org-aniser MJR/slef Just a man, not a .org > (Why is it that people always try to make life hard) Dunno, why do you? Replying to lists rather than "please reply off-list" makes my life harder. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 09:14:11 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BETAY-0007dF-Jw for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:14:10 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETAW-0007ci-IY for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:14:08 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BET8s-00079G-11 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:12:57 -0400 Received: from [81.103.126.128] (helo=router.darlow.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BET8r-00078E-0k for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:12:25 -0400 Received: from ideal.darlow.co.uk (IDENT:500@ideal.darlow.co.uk [192.168.0.233]) by router.darlow.co.uk (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i3GDCGpT079136 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:12:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from neil@darlow.co.uk) From: Neil Darlow To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:12:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> Subject: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:14:09 -0000 Hi, Just thought I'd check with other list members attending the LUD Expo next week. I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable confirmation, haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not received theirs yet? Regards, Neil Darlow -- ICQ: 135505456 E-Mail, Jabber and MSNM: Free Software and Open Standards Consultants - http://www.darlow.co.uk/ The Association of Free Software Professionals - http://www.afsp.org.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 09:22:45 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BETIW-0003gD-AS for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:22:24 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETHy-00038Z-7W for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:21:50 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETG9-0001k0-Q8 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:20:29 -0400 Received: from [212.104.129.88] (helo=mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BETA7-0007V7-QK for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:13:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D242E2B53 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:12:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 13800-01-9 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:12:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from debian (unknown [81.168.52.182]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id D92AE2E2A57 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:12:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:13:45 +0100 From: Adam To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] E-learning strategy analysis published Message-Id: <20040416141345.62384b47@debian> In-Reply-To: <1081350531.25892.99.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> References: <1081350531.25892.99.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) X-Face: {Q{`}r_k$e}NZu*[!g|"_4DD\%5u:"du!; $Hw6i2JDI!nt?a^[z^eHPnsXy,6#?"|PrS#OgWd\#}HTh%K8`7h80, JcxUBMqvp-z+iOSuR]@4xwi}X R)WC5{{q; zpAB6ak'R"n+X`h"zO<"fd,!`&Im_H`UPcNG}iTlbg; 9j<; 8(#:XeAhydTu/nd&XJl]Tc ,T(t7JF!O5rvN~Ol1>zrYJyq+u!1i1A.; SIC/Lw[sF<)GaS,zY"(56{`],=U][>yc,tTYf+AV+u]`( VLeXFW8&GVm_D\oH*4xB4:Al^_Gy;pD?ZY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:22:18 -0000 On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:08:51 +0100 ian wrote: > The DfES has just published an analysis of the reponses in > the E-learning strategy consultation document. I haven't > read them yet but the files are in Word and Powerpoint > format. This is contrary to the E-envoy offices policy for > distribution of public documents. While the Word document > will open in OpenOffice.org it does not position the > graphics accurately. There really is no need for this to > be a Word document. Its not very long and could easily > have been displayed as an HTML page or pdf. > > Please E-mail complaints.peu@dfes.gsi.gov.uk > > A more comprehensive complaints procedure is at > http://www.dfes.gov.uk/contactus/complaint.shtml > > Please get as many people to complain (politely) as > possible so they start to take these issues seriously. > > Thanks, > -- > ian I've just received an email telling me that the document is now also available in PDF and RTF formats. However, there are some further documents which are only available in powerpoint and word formats, which makes me think that they will only produce other formats if people ask. Adam From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 09:29:33 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BETPR-0000eY-Ju for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:29:33 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETNV-00089k-K5 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:27:33 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETMY-0007A8-1s for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:27:05 -0400 Received: from [80.84.72.21] (helo=s1.uklinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BETJH-0004KP-0u for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:23:11 -0400 Received: from mail.uklinux.net (mail.uklinux.net [80.84.72.21]) by s1.uklinux.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i3GDN3a07100; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:23:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:23:03 +0100 (BST) From: Brian Teeman To: Neil Darlow Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets In-Reply-To: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:29:31 -0000 On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Neil Darlow wrote: > Hi, > > Just thought I'd check with other list members attending the LUD Expo next > week. > > I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable confirmation, > haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not > received theirs yet? > > Regards, > Neil Darlow > I recieved mine this morning Brian From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 09:47:01 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BETgL-0000j5-9o for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:47:01 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETf1-0008EL-9a for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:45:39 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETe2-0007VY-Es for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:45:11 -0400 Received: from [212.159.14.213] (helo=ptb-relay02.plus.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BETd9-0006oD-M2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:43:43 -0400 Received: from [212.159.73.122] (helo=Apollo.PRIORYROAD) by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1BETcz-0007fm-0t for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:43:33 +0000 Received: from clive by Apollo.PRIORYROAD with local (Exim 4.31) id 1BETdl-0006bW-2d for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:44:21 +0100 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:44:20 +0100 From: Clive Menzies To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets Message-ID: <20040416134420.GP13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:46:59 -0000 On (16/04/04 14:12), Neil Darlow wrote: > Hi, > > Just thought I'd check with other list members attending the LUD Expo next > week. > > I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable confirmation, > haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not > received theirs yet? I registered some time ago and have received mine Suggest you take the email confirmation. Regards Clive -- http://www.clivemenzies.co.uk strategies for business From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 09:56:46 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEToO-0006np-HB for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:55:20 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETo8-0006eW-Sl for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:55:04 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BETnV-0006Kk-5i for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:54:57 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BETnN-0006En-DZ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:54:17 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E9E531C000D4 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:54:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 751 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:53:59 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:53:59 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets Message-ID: <3ea9dd7f46573bdbd07ef3ac6c42f93f@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:55:17 -0000 On 2004-04-16 14:12:18 +0100 Neil Darlow wrote: > I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable > confirmation, > haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not > received theirs yet? I registered online much more recently (not sure exactly when) and received my paper ticket last week. See some of you on Tuesday, I hope. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 13:01:46 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEWio-0006hW-3C for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:01:46 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEWen-0004N6-2Y for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:57:37 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEWX7-0000pj-He for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:50:12 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BEWWy-0000RY-Bn for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:49:32 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.48] (helo=mta08-svc.ntlworld.com) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BEWQ5-0001th-5D for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:42:25 -0400 Received: from neptune ([81.106.181.26]) by mta08-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040416164224.YIAB20754.mta08-svc.ntlworld.com@neptune>; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:42:24 +0100 Received: from 192.168.0.50 by neptune ([192.168.0.2] running VPOP3) with ESMTP; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:40:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] E-learning strategy analysis published From: Ian Lynch To: Adam In-Reply-To: <20040416141345.62384b47@debian> References: <1081350531.25892.99.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> <20040416141345.62384b47@debian> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: ZMS Ltd Message-Id: <1082133778.18160.6.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4-8mdk Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:42:58 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0g - Registered Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ian.lynch@zmsl.com List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:01:44 -0000 On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 14:13, Adam wrote: > On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:08:51 +0100 > ian wrote: > > > The DfES has just published an analysis of the reponses in > > the E-learning strategy consultation document. I haven't > > read them yet but the files are in Word and Powerpoint > > format. This is contrary to the E-envoy offices policy for > > distribution of public documents. While the Word document > > will open in OpenOffice.org it does not position the > > graphics accurately. There really is no need for this to > > be a Word document. Its not very long and could easily > > have been displayed as an HTML page or pdf. > > > > Please E-mail complaints.peu@dfes.gsi.gov.uk > > > > A more comprehensive complaints procedure is at > > http://www.dfes.gov.uk/contactus/complaint.shtml > > > > Please get as many people to complain (politely) as > > possible so they start to take these issues seriously. > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > ian > > I've just received an email telling me that the document is > now also available in PDF and RTF formats. However, there > are some further documents which are only available in > powerpoint and word formats, which makes me think that they > will only produce other formats if people ask. I think its more likely that they do it if they are sufficiently embarrassed! The people responsible are probably just ignorant when it comes to these issues. In practical terms it might come to the same thing, but they might not simply do it if asked unless there is the lever that its their own policy to do it. I also sent the message out on BECTa's research list and it *is* embarrassing for the DfES to make this sort of gaff. The more we embarrass them (politely) the more likely they are to remember next time ;-) I was told at a meeting to-day that the website that gives guidance on E-GIF compliance is itself not E-GIF compliant :-) Complaining about such things only costs an E-mail so its a practical way for all Free software advocates to make a difference by keeping Government officials on their toes. -- Ian Lynch ZMS Ltd From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 16 20:21:11 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BEda2-000580-1G for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:21:10 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEdZs-0004yT-PM for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:21:00 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BEdZ7-0004ez-AP for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:20:45 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BEdYT-0003y5-4b for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:19:33 -0400 Received: from [194.217.242.92] (helo=anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BEdVl-0002RM-6J for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:16:45 -0400 Received: from startext.demon.co.uk ([158.152.63.191] helo=caxton.startext.demon.co.uk) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BEdVi-0007Fw-0Y; Sat, 17 Apr 2004 01:16:43 +0100 Received: from caxton.startext.demon.co.uk ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost) by caxton.startext.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BEdT4-0006Gk-00; Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:13:58 +0000 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:13:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Martin WHEELER X-X-Sender: To: Neil Darlow Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets In-Reply-To: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:21:03 -0000 On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Neil Darlow wrote: > I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable confirmation, > haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not > received theirs yet? All mine arrived today. (From three separate sources -- don't ask me why I got three. I only registered once. I must have left my business card with someone at the last expo.) But as my name begins with a W I'm used to always being at the end of the queue, anyway. -- Martin Wheeler - StarTEXT / AVALONIX - Glastonbury - BA6 9PH - England mwheeler@startext.co.uk http://www.startext.co.uk/mwheeler/ GPG pub key : 01269BEB 6CAD BFFB DB11 653E B1B7 C62B AC93 0ED8 0126 9BEB - Share your knowledge. It's a way of achieving immortality. - From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 18 18:34:28 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BFKrr-0006Rz-K9 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:34:27 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BFKrn-0006O3-Uf for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:34:23 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BFKrG-00063Y-JF for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:34:21 -0400 Received: from [195.112.4.54] (helo=smtp.nildram.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BFKrG-0005zF-8b for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:33:50 -0400 Received: from minke (home.aptanet.net [213.208.111.220]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BFE2546F4 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:33:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from paul by minke with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BFKqj-0001a8-00 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:33:17 +0100 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:33:17 +0100 From: Paul Tansom To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] LinuxUser and Developer Expo Tickets Message-ID: <20040418223317.GA4190@aptanet.com> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200404161412.18634.neil@darlow.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Paul Tansom X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:25 -0000 ** Neil Darlow [2004-04-16 14:19]: > Just thought I'd check with other list members attending the LUD Expo next > week. > > I registered online on 01/02/2004 but, other than the printable confirmation, > haven't yet received my Expo entry ticket. Have others, likewise, not > received theirs yet? ** end quote [Neil Darlow] I registered online on 04/03/2004 and received my ticket on Friday (16/04/2004), so on that basis you're probably looking at around the 13th May?! I trust they don't really work like that and just wait until closer to the date to send out tickets, but the last one I went to I received my tickets about 4 days after the event. Will be there on the 20th though. -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 19 04:08:09 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BFTp3-0006hL-MC for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 04:08:09 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BFTp0-0006fC-V5 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 04:08:06 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BFToU-0006PW-3a for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 04:08:05 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.45] (helo=mta05-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BFTnp-00060B-Mx for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 04:06:53 -0400 Received: from ntlworld.com ([217.137.148.53]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040419080519.ZIVO15734.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com>; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:05:19 +0100 Message-ID: <40838896.4010008@ntlworld.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:06:46 +0100 From: Richard Smedley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040312 Debian/1.6-3 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jono@jonobacon.org References: <20040419065454.GD29332@afs.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040419065454.GD29332@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org, linux-users@lists.man.ac.uk, South Cheshire GNU/Linux Users Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [linux-users] Re: Infopoints X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:08:08 -0000 Dr A V Le Blanc wrote: >Jono Bacon http://www.jonobacon.org) has sent >the following message. > > -- Owen > LeBlanc@mcc.ac.uk > > >I have struck a deal with Northern Computer Markets to >provide a free space for advocating Linux to computer >fair visitors. This free space will be given at every >computer fair that they run, once a month. I have also >got some coverage of this in Linux Format and I think >it could really be a great opportunity for true >advocacy of Linux to regular people. > >To get the project of to a flying start we need >volunteers to run some infopoints. We need volunteers >for the following areas: > >- Birmingham >- Leeds >- Bradford >- Manchester >- Hull >- Doncaster >- Stoke-on-trent >- Derby >- Nottingham >- Burton-on-trent > >(See www.computermarkets.co.uk for more details) > >I have created some pages about the project at >http://www.jonobacon.org/infopoint/ with a simple FAQ. > >If anyone is interested in getting involved could you >let me know either on this list or privately. > > Hello Jono, I'd be interested in helping to promote Free Software and GNU/Linux at Bowlers and other Northern Computer Markets, and I rather suspect some of the other SC.LUG members would to - so I've cc'd them in. This is a great idea, which could work well if enough volunteers can be found. An LTSP set-up would be ideal, enabling us to cope with whatever machines volunteers (or curious members of the public) bring along, and allowing us to present the possibilities of recycling old machines into use for school, charities and small businesses. AFFS(1) should be happy to provide some information leaflets for this project, and we should perhaps produce some with a local slant. One point: you mention distributing Knoppix on your site. iirc Knoppix currently contains non-free software - perhaps we could look at the next release of Morphix, which should be OK. - Richard Smedley South Cheshire Local User Group (1) www.affs.org.uk - have a leaflet introducing and advocating Free Software From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 21 09:20:26 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGHeL-00015t-Sn for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:20:25 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGHe9-00013l-P9 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:20:13 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGHdb-0000xy-Fi for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:20:10 -0400 Received: from [80.0.192.110] (helo=ccserver.keris.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGHda-0000vu-FX for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:19:38 -0400 Received: from ccrough by ccserver.keris.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGHdL-0003Kg-00; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:19:23 +0100 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:19:23 +0100 From: Chris Croughton To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Message-ID: <20040421141923.A8969@keris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Keristor Systems Sender: Chris Croughton Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Court slaps injunction on GPL infringer X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:20:21 -0000 Spotted on The Register: A German court has granted an injunction for an infringement of general public licence (GPL) software. Munich District Court granted the preliminary injunction against Sitecom Germany, in response to a request from the netfilter/iptables project. Sitecom sells a wireless access router product which uses software developed by the netfilter project. Under the terms of the GPL, this is OK - so long as Sitecom, as redistributor, makes the full source code available too. netfilter says the company has not only failed to do this, but has also neglected to include the terms of the GPL with its products. Lawyers acting for the netfilter/iptables project said that to the best of their knowledge, this is the first case in which a judge has ruled on the validity of the GNU GPL. More at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/21/licence_germany/ It's the first real test case I've heard of for the GPL that has gone to a court decision... Chris C From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 13:12:21 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGhfy-00021M-Oh for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:07:50 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGgjI-0004Ka-64 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:07:12 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGgVy-0001Jj-IC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:53:57 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.130] (helo=mail.ukpost.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGgQ0-0000Ga-RU for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:47:16 -0400 Received: from mail.ukpost.com (mail.ukpost.com [217.158.120.132]) by mail.ukpost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465DB1F80BB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:45:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:45:40 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Clifford To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:07:49 -0000 Can anyone recommend an accountant who is able to handle data from a Free= =20 Software accounting application such as SQL-Ledger (or any other similar=20 app that is suitable for us by a small business)? Jason Clifford --=20 UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband from just =A323.75 / month=20 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 16:17:22 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkdN-0004TB-SF for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:17:21 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkdH-0004R8-U2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:17:15 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkcj-0004Kl-2Z for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:17:12 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGjNL-0003KH-SJ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:56:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1536DE6FBC for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13045-02 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FEAE6EE2 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:09 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:54:24 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404221954.24662.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Open Formats workgroup progress report X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:17:17 -0000 Hello, After being quite enthusiastic about this idea back in February, I've had a lot of things cropping up, mostly to do with Uni work and software patents. I've also been having to wait for my Students' Union officers to pull their fingers out and contact other universities. But, since I've started some work within the Sustainable Development Commission, and I've been pestering them about open formats, I made up a leaflet, as a first draft of the sort of thing we can hand out at any kind of public meeting, and to our boss/head of dept./leader. I'd appreciate constructive comments, though not about the layout... it was a quick job in openoffice! Download it at: http://www.tomchance.org.uk/_files/affs-oip-explaining-leaflet.pdf Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 16:23:10 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkiz-00069B-Mk for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:23:09 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkir-00067X-9u for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:23:01 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkiI-0005w0-64 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:22:58 -0400 Received: from [212.159.14.214] (helo=ptb-relay03.plus.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BGkiH-0005uf-S3 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:22:25 -0400 Received: from [212.159.73.122] (helo=Apollo.PRIORYROAD) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1BGkiE-0003Ht-1Y; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:22:22 +0000 Received: from clive by Apollo.PRIORYROAD with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BGkjB-0006Xd-BU; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:23:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:23:21 +0100 From: Clive Menzies To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Message-ID: <20040422202321.GD13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org, Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Cc: Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:02 -0000 On (22/04/04 16:45), Jason Clifford wrote: > Can anyone recommend an accountant who is able to handle data from a Free > Software accounting application such as SQL-Ledger (or any other similar > app that is suitable for us by a small business)? Hi Jason There's a chartered accountant who hangs out on debian user although I believe he no longer practices; he runs a software consultancy. However, he may have some ideas or contacts: Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk Isle of Wight, UK http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver Regards Clive PS Oliver, I hope you don't mind me passing your details on ;) -- http://www.clivemenzies.co.uk strategies for business From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 17:23:55 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlfm-0003y5-UC for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:23:54 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlff-0003w0-IL for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:23:47 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlf0-0003hF-Iu for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:23:39 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlez-0003gO-Dv for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:23:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C17E6E54 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:19:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21204-04 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:19:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (dsl-80-42-146-2.access.uk.tiscali.com [80.42.146.2]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5931E6E3F for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:19:28 +0100 (BST) Received: by localhost with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGlea-0000Ex-00 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:22:40 +0100 From: Brian Gough To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:22:40 +0100 Subject: [Fsfe-uk] RMS talk in Bristol, May 22. X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:23:50 -0000 This may be of interest to those in the Southwest: See http://www.watershed.co.uk/exhibition/digital/listings/plugincinema.html From: Watershed News Subject: May at Watershed Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:32:03 +0100 (BST) Richard Stallman: Copyright vs Community in the Age of Computer Networks Sat 22 May 1400hrs Waterside 3 Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, has been cited as one of the most important people in computing today. He will be discussing his belief that the copyright system does not fit well with computer networks, with global corporations that profit from copyright lobbying for harsh punishments to increase their copyright powers, whilst suppressing free public access to technology. There will also be the opportunity to ask Stallman questions about his work and ideas. Fee: £3.00 full/ £2.00 concessions (fee to cover room hire costs) This event is organised by plugincinema - Stallman provided comment and inspiration for their forthcoming book 'Plug In & Turn On: A Guide to Internet Filmmaking' (see below). -- Brian Gough Network Theory Ltd, Publishing Free Software Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 17:47:41 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGm2n-0000ug-MN for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:47:41 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGm2m-0000ub-2X for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:47:40 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGm2F-0000pm-Q9 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:47:38 -0400 Received: from [212.104.129.89] (helo=mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGm2F-0000pg-B4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:47:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E87406394 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:45:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 19470-01-88 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:45:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from sunrise (unknown [81.168.112.26]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3EAB406089 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:45:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from jim by sunrise with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGm2C-0001B4-00 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:47:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:47:04 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Message-ID: <20040422214704.GC31932@uazu.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Jim Peters X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Fsfe-uk] [E.Barker@intrallect.com: JISC DRM Workshop - Manchester Friday 14th May] X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:47:40 -0000 Apologies if this is old news or off-topic, but I received this message with an open TO list (deleted below) with only about 30 names on it, none of which I recognised. If it really has been distributed to so few people, I thought I should pass it around in case people would like to get involved. Incidentally, as far as I can see, DRM and open-source do not mix at all well. A DRM decoder would ideally be closed-source and run in the most restrictive environment possible for the decoder design to meet its objectives (which I'm assuming are to totally prevent the user from accessing the content in ways not permitted by the DRM packagers, whether those restrictions be fair and legal or otherwise). =20 But someone please correct me if I am missing something here -- e.g. if there are perhaps some forms of DRM which might be workable or even perhaps useful in an open-source setting. =20 (I can't think of anything off the top of my head, except perhaps the Creative Commons license tagging system which helps search engines and programs recognise content that is legal to re-use, generally granting freedoms instead of attempting to take them away; does this count as a form of "DRM", though?) Jim ----- Forwarded message from Ed Barker ----- From: Ed Barker Subject: JISC DRM Workshop - Manchester Friday 14th May Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:15:34 +0100 Dear Colleagues, Intrallect Limited is currently carrying out a study on behalf of JISC,=20 the objective of which is "to make recommendations on the best approach=20 for JISC and the UK education and research communities to adopt in=20 relation to digital rights management.". The study will consider all=20 aspects of Digital Rights Management (DRM) including recognition,=20 assertion, expression, dissemination, exposure and enforcement of=20 rights. The focus will be on the JISC information environment and=20 e-Learning Framework but will take account of the many dimensions which=20 define these environments: activities; resources; the law; technology;=20 preservation; architectures; licenses. In addition, the study will=20 consider personal and cultural issues. We are holding a workshop on Friday, 14th May from 10.30 - 3.30 at=20 Manchester University and we hope to include a selection of=20 representatives with knowledge of the issues affecting the publishing, =20 library, FE and HE teaching and research, and resource management=20 community. During the workshop we will spend some time discussing digital rights=20 management generally but the main purpose of the workshop is to develop=20 some "use cases" or scenarios in which digital rights management is=20 important or problematic. These "use cases" will feed into the=20 requirements for possible solutions. If you would be interested in attending this workshop or possible future=20 workshops please let me know. Also if you are aware of colleagues who=20 have an interest in this field we would appreciate it if you could=20 forward this email to them. Links to information about the project are included at the end of this=20 email but if you require further information, please do not hesitate to=20 contact us. Best Wishes, Ed Barker Senior Consultant Intrallect Limited http://www.intrallect.com Tel +44 870 234 3933 Fax +44 1506 505 117 The Digital Rights Management Study (DRM) is part of the JISC's=20 "Middleware and Shared Services Studies" programme =20 (http://www.jisc.ac.uk/index.cfm?name=3Dprog_middss_studies). There is JISC mailing list to receive information:=20 http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/JISC-DRM.html. The project website is=20 http://www.intrallect.com/drm-study/index.htm. ----- End forwarded message ----- --=20 Jim Peters (_)/=3D\~/_(_) jim@uazu.net (_) /=3D\ ~/_ (_) Uaz=FA (_) /=3D\ ~/_ (_) http:/= / Brighton, UK (_) ____ /=3D\ ____ ~/_ ____ (_) uazu.net BWView: a fast visual browser for brainwave files: http://uazu.net/BW From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 17:58:33 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGmDJ-0003If-Bt for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:58:33 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGm7w-0002DV-15 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:53:00 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlwe-0008RX-Ba for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:41:51 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.47] (helo=mta07-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGlhH-0004Me-8h for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:25:27 -0400 Received: from neptune ([81.106.181.26]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040422205407.PLDX1587.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@neptune> for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:54:07 +0100 Received: from 192.168.0.50 by neptune ([192.168.0.2] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:52:19 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? From: Ian Lynch To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20040422202321.GD13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> References: <20040422202321.GD13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: ZMS Ltd Message-Id: <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4-8mdk Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:54:33 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0g - Registered X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ian.lynch@zmsl.com List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:58:31 -0000 On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 21:23, Clive Menzies wrote: > On (22/04/04 16:45), Jason Clifford wrote: > > Can anyone recommend an accountant who is able to handle data from a Free > > Software accounting application such as SQL-Ledger (or any other similar > > app that is suitable for us by a small business)? > Hi Jason > > There's a chartered accountant who hangs out on debian user although I > believe he no longer practices; he runs a software consultancy. > However, he may have some ideas or contacts: This really is a stumbling block to get free software into small businesses. More than 50% of the business done in the country is small businesses and most just need an office suite, web browser, E-mail and an accounts package acceptable to accountants. -- Ian Lynch ZMS Ltd From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 18:27:16 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGmf6-00045E-GR for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:27:16 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGmet-000412-S3 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:27:03 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGmLb-0006G9-Ji for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:07:39 -0400 Received: from [80.0.192.110] (helo=ccserver.keris.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGmL9-0005zL-3o for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:06:39 -0400 Received: from ccrough by ccserver.keris.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGmL1-0000xr-00; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:06:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:06:31 +0100 From: Chris Croughton To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] RMS talk in Bristol, May 22. Message-ID: <20040422230631.B20527@keris.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from bjg@network-theory.co.uk on Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 10:22:40PM +0100 Organization: Keristor Systems Sender: Chris Croughton X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:27:05 -0000 On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 10:22:40PM +0100, Brian Gough wrote: > This may be of interest to those in the Southwest: I may be able to visit friends there that weekend... > Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, has been > cited as one of the most important people in computing today. He will > be discussing his belief that the copyright system does not fit well > with computer networks, with global corporations that profit from > copyright lobbying for harsh punishments to increase their copyright > powers, whilst suppressing free public access to technology. There will > also be the opportunity to ask Stallman questions about his work and > ideas. He's also a very good speaker, and knows how to defuse irrelevant (and provocative) comments without getting things heated (like when someone comments about 'open source' versus 'free'). I must admit I'd love to talk to him about non-computing topics as well, we seem to share a number of interests and opinions, but I doubt there's time... > Fee: £3.00 full/ £2.00 concessions (fee to cover room hire costs) Well worth it. Do you have any idea how quickly they might sell out? Chris C From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 19:00:07 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnAt-0006qW-A5 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:00:07 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnAq-0006pq-8P for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:00:04 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnAJ-0006fv-It for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:00:02 -0400 Received: from [212.159.14.214] (helo=ptb-relay03.plus.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnAI-0006f3-UZ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:59:31 -0400 Received: from [212.159.73.122] (helo=Apollo.PRIORYROAD) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1BGnAH-00044x-VE for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:59:30 +0000 Received: from clive by Apollo.PRIORYROAD with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BGnBF-0006sf-HD for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:00:29 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:00:29 +0100 From: Clive Menzies To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Message-ID: <20040422230029.GH13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <20040422202321.GD13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:00:05 -0000 On (22/04/04 21:54), Ian Lynch wrote: > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 21:23, Clive Menzies wrote: > > On (22/04/04 16:45), Jason Clifford wrote: > > > Can anyone recommend an accountant who is able to handle data from a Free > > > Software accounting application such as SQL-Ledger (or any other similar > > > app that is suitable for us by a small business)? > > Hi Jason > > > > There's a chartered accountant who hangs out on debian user although I > > believe he no longer practices; he runs a software consultancy. > > However, he may have some ideas or contacts: > > This really is a stumbling block to get free software into small > businesses. More than 50% of the business done in the country is small > businesses and most just need an office suite, web browser, E-mail and > an accounts package acceptable to accountants. Hi Ian I couldn't agree more ;) We are consigned to using Sage (Aaarrgh!) because it is what our accountants use but I would love to use something else. When I get time I mean to have a look at GnuCash and see whether it could output in an acceptable format. But as my partner (on XP) does the accounts, I fear it may be a while before I get around to it ;) Regards Clive -- http://www.clivemenzies.co.uk strategies for business From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 22 19:14:38 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnOv-00070O-D2 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:14:37 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnOr-0006v7-5n for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:14:33 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnOJ-0006bn-1i for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:14:30 -0400 Received: from [213.162.101.47] (helo=joran.homelinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGnOI-0006ZW-6m for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:13:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by joran.homelinux.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B285CBF828; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:13:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from joran.homelinux.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (joran.homelinux.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 07551-03; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:13:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by joran.homelinux.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA4BBF814; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:13:51 +0100 (BST) From: Martyn To: Clive Menzies , fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:13:25 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> <20040422230029.GH13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040422230029.GH13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200404230013.50265.ranyardm@lineone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at joran.homelinux.net Cc: X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:14:34 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, Please excuse the non-Free software talk, but I thought I'd mention=20 something someone else looked at... >BTW I have found that "Wages Clerk" from www.taxoffice.co.uk is an excelle= nt=20 >UK payroll program, very low cost (free for 2 employees, or =A350 per annu= m for=20 >more), installs, and works perfectly under wine (no config file changes, j= ust=20 >vanilla wine as in the SuSE8.2/9.0 distro), =A0and also with Codeweavers=20 >Office. On Friday 23 April 2004 00:00, Clive Menzies wrote: > Hi Ian > > I couldn't agree more ;) We are consigned to using Sage (Aaarrgh!) > because it is what our accountants use but I would love to use something > else. When I get time I mean to have a look at GnuCash and see whether > it could output in an acceptable format. But as my partner (on XP) does > the accounts, I fear it may be a while before I get around to it ;) > > Regards > > Clive =2D -- Martyn =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAiFGcattE3HYwfkwRAp+9AJ9Az5SgUGPV6b4CUKsk4OuNQfVZagCdHczY TB79fHltOqSy4iOB6Kvl9CY=3D =3DQLeF =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 03:15:00 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGutn-0001LT-Sm for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:14:59 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGutk-0001Je-9s for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:14:56 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGutC-00014d-M8 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:14:54 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGutC-000147-1m for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:14:22 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BGut9-0005Ft-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:14:19 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGut2-0005fR-00 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:14:12 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:14:12 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Open Formats workgroup progress report Message-ID: <20040423071412.GA21529@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <200404221954.24662.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200404221954.24662.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:14:57 -0000 On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 07:54:24PM +0100, Tom Chance wrote: > public meeting, and to our boss/head of dept./leader. I'd appreciate > constructive comments, though not about the layout... it was a quick job in Nice document! Some quick comments: I'd rather not name (and blame) one company in such a document. Vendor lock-in through proprietary formats is so wide spread, that naming only one company gives the wrong impression, that it is only this one company using this strategy. So I'd rather write this in a more general way, maybe using this as an example to highlight the point, but not the other way around. HTML is obviously a well-documented format, but unfortunately different companies have been pushing different extensions, which only work with their browsers. Every web designer can tell you about the nightmare of writing HTML code, that will look reasonable on all browsers. And most HTML code on the web is not validated and usually not really conforming to the standards. This isn't helped by products to write HTML documents, which produce non-standard HTML. So, yes it is the better way, but it isn't working without any problems and thus it seems a bit to enthusiastic to sell this as a "solution". I guess, I would add something about HTML conforming to the standards (which is a solution) and HTML containing extensions in an attempt to undermine this idea (with obvious thoughts behind it -> vendor lock-in again). Similar arguments apply to RTF and PDF. Also as you mention office products, I wouldn't advertise PDF as a replacement for Word documents as PDF is (for most people) not editable. I'd rather compare proprietary office products with OpenOffice. The OpenOffice format is well documented and can be supported by everyone. I would sell this format as the alternative, not plain text, RTF or PDF. Just some quick thought... Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 04:36:04 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGw3g-0000di-NY for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:29:16 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGw3G-0008Oi-BU for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:28:50 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGw2G-0006tI-AD for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:28:20 -0400 Received: from [212.159.14.212] (helo=ptb-relay01.plus.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BGw1m-0006Ig-JB for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:27:18 -0400 Received: from [212.159.73.122] (helo=Apollo.PRIORYROAD) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1BGw1l-000Lbc-8O; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:27:17 +0000 Received: from clive by Apollo.PRIORYROAD with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BGw2j-0000Vr-FD; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:28:17 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:28:17 +0100 From: Clive Menzies To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Message-ID: <20040423082817.GA1951@clivemenzies.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org, Maggie Dusnic References: <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> <20040422230029.GH13691@clivemenzies.co.uk> <200404230013.50265.ranyardm@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200404230013.50265.ranyardm@lineone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Cc: Maggie Dusnic X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:29:12 -0000 On (23/04/04 00:13), Martyn wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi all, > > Please excuse the non-Free software talk, but I thought I'd mention > something someone else looked at... > > somebody called Ray spake thus : > > >BTW I have found that "Wages Clerk" from www.taxoffice.co.uk is an excellent > >UK payroll program, very low cost (free for 2 employees, or £50 per annum for > >more), installs, and works perfectly under wine (no config file changes, just > >vanilla wine as in the SuSE8.2/9.0 distro),  and also with Codeweavers > >Office. Thanks Martyn Ah yes! Wine ..... now there's another little project to add to my list ;) Regards Clive -- http://www.clivemenzies.co.uk strategies for business From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 05:09:07 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGwg5-0001A8-Bf for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:08:57 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGwft-00017E-QS for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:08:45 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGwfF-0000oi-Th for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:08:38 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGwfF-0000oB-4s for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:08:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6883CE6F2D for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:04:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14488-17 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:04:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (dsl-80-42-171-34.access.uk.tiscali.com [80.42.171.34]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083EDE6D72 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:04:28 +0100 (BST) Received: by localhost with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGwUj-00017q-00 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:57:13 +0100 From: Brian Gough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16520.55913.617536.311571@network-theory.co.uk> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:57:13 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] RMS talk in Bristol, May 22. In-Reply-To: <20040422230631.B20527@keris.net> References: <20040422230631.B20527@keris.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 20.7.2 X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:08:48 -0000 Chris Croughton writes: > Do you have any idea how quickly they might sell out? I don't know, but you can reserve tickets by phone with a credit/debit card. The room holds 200 people. -- Brian Gough Network Theory Ltd, Publishing Free Software Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 06:56:22 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGyM1-0000JI-F7 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:56:21 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGyLx-0000Ih-TL for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:56:17 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGyLQ-0000ET-8m for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:56:16 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.42] (helo=mta02-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGyJq-0008UD-Fu for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:54:06 -0400 Received: from neptune ([81.106.181.26]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040423105312.PUXW7240.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@neptune>; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:53:12 +0100 Received: from 192.168.0.50 by neptune ([192.168.0.2] running VPOP3) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:52:53 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Open Formats workgroup progress report From: Ian Lynch To: Marc Eberhard In-Reply-To: <20040423071412.GA21529@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> References: <200404221954.24662.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <20040423071412.GA21529@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: ZMS Ltd Message-Id: <1082717708.20678.24.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4-8mdk Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:55:09 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0g - Registered Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ian.lynch@zmsl.com List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:56:19 -0000 On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 08:14, Marc Eberhard wrote: > Also as you mention office products, I wouldn't advertise PDF as a > replacement for Word documents as PDF is (for most people) not editable. I'd > rather compare proprietary office products with OpenOffice. The OpenOffice > format is well documented and can be supported by everyone. I would sell > this format as the alternative, not plain text, RTF or PDF. Agreed. As a longer term replacement its far more sensible because of its openness and XML relationship. In general the compressed document format is also more efficient than raw .doc etc. There is a chicken and egg situation in establishing any new standard where one is entrenched but the first part of doing that is to educate people. -- Ian Lynch ZMS Ltd From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 07:42:58 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BGz57-0001H3-0S for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:42:57 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGz53-0001GN-LS for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:42:53 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BGz4W-0001Bp-Rd for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:42:52 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGyo7-00076q-7Q for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:25:23 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 49F8F1C00222 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:25:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 413 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:25:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:25:05 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <1082667273.12451.288.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:42:55 -0000 On 2004-04-22 21:54:33 +0100 Ian Lynch wrote: > [...] most just need an office suite, web browser, E-mail and > an accounts package acceptable to accountants. Most would be better served by better knowledge of financial management than an accounts package. It seems much cheaper for *small* businesses to deal with an accountant without them encountering your accounts package, from a straw poll around here. I wonder what size you need to be before it's cheaper to use an accounts package. I'll let you know ;-) -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 09:43:56 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH0yC-00056z-LS for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:43:56 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH0yA-00056U-VJ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:43:54 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH0y9-000560-Cu for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:43:53 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH0y9-00055m-1W for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:43:53 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC1027EE7 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:43:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1082727815.13155.4.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:43:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Zope UK? X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:43:55 -0000 Hey everyone. Does anyone here have anything to do with, or had any contact with, the "Zope UK Association"? http://www.zopeuk.org/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/23/open_source_trade_association/ Supposedly this is a general "Open Source" organisation, although it does seem quite plainly aimed at Python/Plone/Zope. It would be useful to know if anyone here is part of it before we go trying to contact them separately :D Cheers, Alex. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 10:30:24 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1h9-0008Ra-EJ for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:30:23 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1h4-0008Ph-C8 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:30:18 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1fC-00080U-0N for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:28:54 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1cw-0007XA-VR for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:26:03 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGzOb-0001fG-3G for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:03:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D89E70AC for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:54:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31718-07 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:54:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3E1E6EF5 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:54:47 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Open Formats workgroup progress report Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:55:58 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <200404221954.24662.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <20040423071412.GA21529@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> <1082717708.20678.24.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> In-Reply-To: <1082717708.20678.24.camel@zaphod.uk.irlcomputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404231255.59217.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:30:21 -0000 On Friday 23 Apr 2004 11:55, Ian Lynch wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 08:14, Marc Eberhard wrote: > > Also as you mention office products, I wouldn't advertise PDF as a > > replacement for Word documents as PDF is (for most people) not editable. > > I'd rather compare proprietary office products with OpenOffice. The > > OpenOffice format is well documented and can be supported by everyone. I > > would sell this format as the alternative, not plain text, RTF or PDF. > > Agreed. As a longer term replacement its far more sensible because of > its openness and XML relationship. In general the compressed document > format is also more efficient than raw .doc etc. There is a chicken and > egg situation in establishing any new standard where one is entrenched > but the first part of doing that is to educate people. Part of the problem with this approach, however, is that it wouldn't work. Trying to convince a company or organisation to switch wholesale to OpenOffice would be far more difficult than trying to convince them to convert their documents to PDF, or save them as RTF or HTML. The idea of this campaign/workgroup is to give grassroots activists something they can work on and achieve without a huge amount of work. It took next to no work to get it through my Students' Union, and so it shouldn't be much more work in other orgs or companies. Once you have established policies on open formats, then you can really start to push for Free Software, and the adoption of new open formats like OpenOffice's filetypes. Though I will include OpenOffice in the list, and when I expand it to cover how to save documents in open formats, I'll include a note about downloading and using OpenOffice. Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 10:34:27 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1l4-000140-M7 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:34:26 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1ku-000105-GJ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:34:16 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1kJ-0000qF-QQ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:34:10 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BH1bL-0007Fs-Rx for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:24:24 -0400 Received: from [80.0.192.110] (helo=ccserver.keris.net) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGzfZ-00040m-1B for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:20:37 -0400 Received: from ccrough by ccserver.keris.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGzb2-0003pM-00; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:15:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:15:56 +0100 From: Chris Croughton To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] RMS talk in Bristol, May 22. Message-ID: <20040423131556.A14533@keris.net> References: <20040422230631.B20527@keris.net> <16520.55913.617536.311571@network-theory.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <16520.55913.617536.311571@network-theory.co.uk>; from bjg@network-theory.co.uk on Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 09:57:13AM +0100 Organization: Keristor Systems Sender: Chris Croughton X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:34:18 -0000 On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 09:57:13AM +0100, Brian Gough wrote: > Chris Croughton writes: > > Do you have any idea how quickly they might sell out? > > I don't know, but you can reserve tickets by phone with a credit/debit > card. The room holds 200 people. Ah, I couldn't find the room capacity on the website. Thanks. Chris C From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 12:27:32 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3WW-0000cN-BS for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:27:32 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3Vh-0000Lj-Am for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:26:41 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3V8-0008VT-15 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:26:38 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3V7-0008V5-Hr for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:26:05 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A2DB1C002FC for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:26:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1408 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:25:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:25:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] [E.Barker@intrallect.com: JISC DRM Workshop - Manchester Friday 14th May] Message-ID: <24b3ae7c8cba65c8a8710b3586f710cc@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <20040422214704.GC31932@uazu.net> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:27:28 -0000 On 2004-04-22 22:47:04 +0100 Jim Peters wrote: > Incidentally, as far as I can see, DRM and open-source do not mix at > all well. A DRM decoder would ideally be closed-source and run in the > most restrictive environment possible for the decoder design to meet > its objectives Supposedly closed decoders for sat-tv seem to get cracked fairly regularly. I suspect strength of the encryption is more critical once it's non-stupid. Things like modularity are also important, to allow the "arms race" to continue in the face of more computer power. > programs recognise content that is legal to re-use, generally granting > freedoms instead of attempting to take them away; does this count as a > form of "DRM", though?) I think so, although people normally mean "Digital Rights *Restrictions by Technology*" (DRRT, pronounced "dirt") rather than rights management when they write DRM. Here, they explicitly say they want to cover all of it. Things like the Copyright headers in package files or archive sections of some GNU-Linux distributions are probably also really forms of DRM, making licensing easier to manage. > We are holding a workshop on Friday, 14th May from 10.30 - 3.30 at > Manchester > University [...] > The Digital Rights Management Study (DRM) is part of the JISC's > "Middleware > and Shared Services Studies" programme > (http://www.jisc.ac.uk/index.cfm?name=prog_middss_studies). > > There is JISC mailing list to receive information: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/JISC-DRM.html. The project website > is > http://www.intrallect.com/drm-study/index.htm. Will someone please monitor these and tell AFFS about it? Jim, would you? If required, I would expect we could formally "ennoble"(?) people with titles ("AFFS-MIDDSS liaison"?) and crap that the outside world like. How does this interact with the open formats workgroup? Are things like OEBPS here again? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 12:35:28 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3eA-0005FD-6A for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:35:26 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3dW-0004i3-6E for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:34:46 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3Z6-0001cd-V2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:30:44 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3Uv-0008Pg-TV for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:25:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2710E6DE4; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:22:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16858-10; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:22:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700C2E6E42; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:22:13 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: free-sklyarov-uk@xenoclast.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:23:24 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404231723.24038.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:35:22 -0000 Hello all, Sorry for cross-posting but it concerns all three orgs. Having roamed around between the three different campaigning organisations in the expo, I've a few thoughts. In general, I thought the .ORG village was pretty awful; there wasn't enough space, it didn't look inviting at all, and, whereas with the Debian booth it was clear when a passer-by was interested in your wares, for us it was impossible. I appreciate that the event is first and foremost a trade show, and that we should be thankful we get any space at all. But I've been thinking of how to improve how we use this. Since the UKCDR, AFFS and FFII are all interested in similar things (the UKCDR and FFII in particular), would it not make sense to club together for one "campaigns" stall, similar to the Debian booth, where we could have more space, and be further than 10cm away from competing stalls. Would we be able to get something like Debian had last week, at future expos? I think it'd be better if we had one big stall, selling the usual wares, giving away the usual info, as well as pushing one or two specific things people can do then and there... e.g. sign up to a mailing list, sign a petition, write a letter. It might then be a little more productive. Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 12:51:04 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3tI-00070p-GB for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:51:04 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3tF-0006zd-Ob for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:51:01 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3sf-0006qe-U3 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:50:57 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.130] (helo=mail.ukpost.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3sa-0006py-Aa for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:50:20 -0400 Received: from mail.ukpost.com (mail.ukpost.com [217.158.120.132]) by mail.ukpost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD59B1F8022; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:48:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:48:40 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Clifford To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:51:02 -0000 On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, MJ Ray wrote: > Most would be better served by better knowledge of financial=20 > management than an accounts package. It seems much cheaper for *small*=20 > businesses to deal with an accountant without them encountering your=20 > accounts package, from a straw poll around here. I wonder what size=20 > you need to be before it's cheaper to use an accounts package. I'll=20 > let you know ;-) I don't think the size of the business is at all relevant - rather the=20 nature and scale of the business processes in terms of income and=20 expenditure is what should drive considerations with regard to the=20 processes involves in tracking and managing those things. For me, I could not easily use a proprietary package even were I inclined= =20 to do so. I *think* it may be possible to integrate sql-ledger with my=20 existing processes for handling registrations and other billing events.=20 The key for me is automation but then running an ISP is not entirely like= =20 most other small businesses I expect. Jason Clifford --=20 UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband from just =A323.75 / month=20 From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 12:57:20 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3zL-0000pz-Ru for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:57:19 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3zI-0000nH-Um for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:57:17 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3zB-0000kR-Ra for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:57:12 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH3wp-0008HD-GZ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:54:43 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5E327EE7 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:54:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK In-Reply-To: <200404231723.24038.lists@tomchance.org.uk> References: <200404231723.24038.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1082739267.13155.77.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:54:27 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:57:18 -0000 Hey Tom, (Thanks for turning up to Expo, and for your formats work - much appreciated, nice to meet you). On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 17:23, Tom Chance wrote: > Sorry for cross-posting but it concerns all three orgs. Just for reference, we did all have a bit of a pow-wow, and we are hopefully going to have a meeting sometime soon to hash out some practical areas where we can work together more. As is often pointed out, there are a number of areas where we have similar concerns and should join forces. > In general, I thought the .ORG village was pretty awful; there wasn't > enough space, it didn't look inviting at all, and, whereas with the > Debian booth it was clear when a passer-by was interested in your > wares, for us it was impossible. I will be sending some officious feedback on the village sometime late weekend/early next week. The main problem I think was differentiating the projects - for example, I even had someone ask me what the ".org village" did and why they should join :o) As for the stand, I did like being able to put up mini-posters on the board. For AFFS, the width of the stand etc. was fine, although I think a couple of people would have liked wider. There is the whole "behind the stand"/"in front of stand" debate. Sitting behind the stand would have meant no board to stick things on, but I think would have meant more space for visitors to get to the stand. Overall, I suspect I prefer the "behind stand", but I don't think it would have made a huge difference either way. Being opposite the BBC, on the other hand, definitely helped :o) I don't envy the stand designers - there are certain physical requirements (i.e., for the structure to be self-supporting) which rules out some of the more progressive designs. For my money, though, the Birmingham Village seemed to work the best, although I know not everyone was happy with it. Part of why it seemed to work was the location too, with the village kind of at the centre - having everything on one floor seems to make things work better. I'm not sure the organisers can do anything about the design of Olympia, however ;) > Since the UKCDR, AFFS and FFII are all interested in similar things > (the UKCDR and FFII in particular), would it not make sense to club > together for one "campaigns" stall, similar to the Debian booth, where > we could have more space, and be further than 10cm away from > competing stalls. Would we be able to get something like Debian had > last week, at future expos? Hmm, not sure. I think Debian got the stand they did on basically practical grounds; they need to be there, but they also generate crowd, which makes it difficult for people to move around. I'm not sure what the various costings, etc., would be, and whether or not us three clubbing together would be practical on that basis (since the argument is basically grounded in 'would like', rather than 'needs to be'). I would also be a little worried about potential ghettoisation. Potentially possible, though. After all, AFFS wasn't just AFFS - we were also FSF/GNU, and have been AFSP, FSFE-ish and other things in the past at the same time. We could have a freedom village all to ourselves ;) Cheers, Alex. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 13:05:42 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH47S-00051L-6Q for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:05:42 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH47P-00050J-D6 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:05:39 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH46s-0004pH-3A for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:05:38 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH46r-0004pA-QX for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:05:05 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5ECD01C00206 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:05:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1601 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:04:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:04:55 +0100 Message-ID: <900e4574a3af5a958ee35b616f0f146c@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: FSFE-UK/ Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [Debian-uk] Vector Logos (was: Re: LUDEX results part 2: Money) (fwd) X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:05:40 -0000 Probably handy to record Paul's help on the list archive. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2004-04-23 15:43:15 +0100 From: Paul Sladen Subject: Re: [Debian-uk] Vector Logos (was: Re: LUDEX results part 2: Money) http://www.paul.sladen.org/expo/vector/affslogo.{eps,pdf} [...] This AFFS uses a mask to remove the `F' so should paint over non-white surfaces okay (the original just used a white square to hide the `F'). [...] http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-uk -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 13:12:34 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH4DK-0007tZ-AR for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:11:46 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH457-0003wi-B6 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:03:17 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH44O-0003Pr-VY for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:03:04 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH43v-000336-Dy for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:02:03 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E5894C00135 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:02:00 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1587 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:01:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:01:49 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Open Formats workgroup progress report Message-ID: <38514664312565f5409e223576339bb9@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <200404231255.59217.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:11:44 -0000 On 2004-04-23 12:55:58 +0100 Tom Chance wrote: > Part of the problem with this approach, however, is that it wouldn't > work. > Trying to convince a company or organisation to switch wholesale to > OpenOffice would be far more difficult than trying to convince them > to > convert their documents to PDF, or save them as RTF or HTML. I think we are talking about file formats, not applications. The OOWriter format is documented, but which applications support it now? RTF and HTML seem better than PDF for most uses still. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 15:05:18 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH5zC-0003XH-Cz for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:05:18 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH5zA-0003VF-5T for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:05:16 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH5yc-00033v-Sy for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:05:15 -0400 Received: from [212.104.129.89] (helo=mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH5yH-0002mS-6l for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:04:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0695406DB6 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:02:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 11555-01-69 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:02:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from sunrise (unknown [81.168.112.26]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D964061C6 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:02:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from jim by sunrise with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BH5yE-0001jy-00 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:04:18 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:04:18 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] [E.Barker@intrallect.com: JISC DRM Workshop - Manchester Friday 14th May] Message-ID: <20040423190417.GA6413@uazu.net> References: <20040422214704.GC31932@uazu.net> <24b3ae7c8cba65c8a8710b3586f710cc@bouncing.localnet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24b3ae7c8cba65c8a8710b3586f710cc@bouncing.localnet> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Jim Peters X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:05:16 -0000 MJ Ray wrote: > I think so, although people normally mean "Digital Rights=20 > *Restrictions by Technology*" (DRRT, pronounced "dirt") rather than=20 > rights management when they write DRM. Here, they explicitly say they=20 > want to cover all of it. Things like the Copyright headers in package=20 > files or archive sections of some GNU-Linux distributions are probably=20 > also really forms of DRM, making licensing easier to manage. Interesting point. But you're right that DRM =3D=3D dirt for many people= . Perhaps trying to include informational licence tagging in the same category only confuses the discussion, especially as the people who came up with the DRM acronym were probably thinking more about technical restrictions. =20 There again, if JISC want a full discussion, perhaps it is useful to separate the concept of technical restrictions from the concept of providing machine-readable licence information (i.e. separate automated licence enforcement from automated licence notification). > >The Digital Rights Management Study (DRM) is part of the JISC's=20 > >"Middleware and Shared Services Studies" programme=20 > > http://www.jisc.ac.uk/index.cfm?name=3Dprog_middss_studies > >There is JISC mailing list to receive information:=20 > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/JISC-DRM.html > >The project website is=20 > > http://www.intrallect.com/drm-study/index.htm >=20 > Will someone please monitor these and tell AFFS about it? Jim, would > you? Sorry, no -- I don't have time for that. Jim --=20 Jim Peters (_)/=3D\~/_(_) jim@uazu.net (_) /=3D\ ~/_ (_) Uaz=FA (_) /=3D\ ~/_ (_) http:/= / Brighton, UK (_) ____ /=3D\ ____ ~/_ ____ (_) uazu.net SBaGen: binaural beats for brainwave entrainment: http://uazu.net/SB From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 18:37:54 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9Iv-0006Rm-Ds for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:37:53 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9Io-0006Ir-Jq for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:37:46 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9IF-0005ho-4a for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:37:43 -0400 Received: from [144.82.100.148] (helo=vscane-a.ucl.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9IE-0005hE-RA for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:37:10 -0400 Received: from dial-62-64-212-202.access.uk.tiscali.com ([62.64.212.202] helo=ucl.ac.uk) by vscane-a.ucl.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9I5-0006yN-E8; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:37:02 +0100 Message-ID: <40899A6B.50101@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:36:27 +0100 From: James Heald User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031208 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Hudson Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Zope UK? References: <1082727815.13155.4.camel@lapland.alexworld> In-Reply-To: <1082727815.13155.4.camel@lapland.alexworld> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UCL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the UCL Helpdesk, helpdesk@ucl.ac.uk for more information X-UCL-MailScanner: Found to be clean Cc: FSFE-UK X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:37:49 -0000 Alex Hudson wrote: > Hey everyone. > > Does anyone here have anything to do with, or had any contact with, the > "Zope UK Association"? > > http://www.zopeuk.org/ > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/23/open_source_trade_association/ > > Supposedly this is a general "Open Source" organisation, although it > does seem quite plainly aimed at Python/Plone/Zope. It would be useful > to know if anyone here is part of it before we go trying to contact them > separately :D > > Cheers, > > Alex. > As a Content Management System, Zope has been very successful in establishing itself with a lot of continental governments and public organisations -- it's said that in France, if you now want to use a CMS other than Zope for a public project, you have to submit a detailed memo saying why. One of the key selling points is how, being open source, diferent public bodies can use Zope/Python/Plone solutions and build on each others' work. There were quite a lot of Zope/Plone/Python people at ACCU in Oxford last week (the last two days of which included a whole Python UK meet). Paul Everitt of Zope was there for the whole programme, and there were several mentions of the launch do in the Houses of Parliament. My impression is that this is primarily an umbrella group for people providing Zope-based solutions/support; but acceptance of Zope may act as a spearhead for other Open Source / Free Software offerings. "Zope is an open source web application server primarily written in the Python programming language. It has many features to rival closed source alternatives including a transactional object oriented database, dynamic HTML templates, scripts, a search engine and many connectors to the leading relational database platforms." Paul Everitt was at the panel session I did on Software Patents, but I never really got to talk to him -- I imagined that pushing Zope was message enough for the Houses of Parliament launch, and they probably wouldn't have wanted the topic of eg software patents raised there. But I probably should have tried to find out from him whether he has made contacts who might be able to bring any influence to bear. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 18:52:38 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9XB-0006jx-FW for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:52:37 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9X6-0006i0-H2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:52:32 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9WT-0006Z5-8L for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:52:25 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9WS-0006Y4-L6 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:51:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA567E6EDF for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:48:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06267-20 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:48:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91078E6ECA for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:48:11 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Zope UK? Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:49:21 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <1082727815.13155.4.camel@lapland.alexworld> <40899A6B.50101@ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <40899A6B.50101@ucl.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404232349.21299.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:52:34 -0000 On Friday 23 Apr 2004 23:36, James Heald wrote: > Alex Hudson wrote: > > Hey everyone. > > > > Does anyone here have anything to do with, or had any contact with, the > > "Zope UK Association"? > > > > http://www.zopeuk.org/ > > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/23/open_source_trade_association/ > > > > Supposedly this is a general "Open Source" organisation, although it > > does seem quite plainly aimed at Python/Plone/Zope. It would be useful > > to know if anyone here is part of it before we go trying to contact them > > separately :D > > > > Cheers, > > > > Alex. > > As a Content Management System, Zope has been very successful in > establishing itself with a lot of continental governments and public > organisations... [snip] If it's of any use, I've been involved with a project involving People & Planet and Christian Aid, who are developing a major new active supporter web site based on Plone, aimed at the UK but mostly written by a team of Christian Aid programmers in India (I'd love to hear someone whine about offshoring to them!). Maybe it's not really that relevant to the original post, but given that, for example, Greenpeace UK have also been making siginificant inroads into using Free Software, NGOs' tech depts. might be an avenue to explore re: promoting Free Software, fighting software patents, etc. Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 19:22:37 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9zl-0008Hl-3t for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:22:09 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9wD-0006zR-JA for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:18:29 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9vR-0006jz-Er for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:18:12 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BH9r1-0005F3-7O for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:13:07 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FD144C00098; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:13:05 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 415 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:12:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:12:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Accountant recommendations? Message-ID: <1f12dd8b001b5bb1ce589d677c2b4c19@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: Jason Clifford Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:21:57 -0000 On 2004-04-23 17:48:40 +0100 Jason Clifford wrote: > I don't think the size of the business is at all relevant - rather > the nature > and scale of the business processes in terms of income and > expenditure is > what should drive considerations [...] I think we agree. I see your measures of nature and scale as a type of size measure. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 19:35:25 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAC2-0005RS-Aa for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:34:50 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHABb-0004sX-AC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:34:23 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAAw-0003rs-FJ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:34:13 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAAv-0003qv-R2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:33:41 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 75D931C000B6 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:33:35 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 464 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:33:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:33:27 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <200404231723.24038.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:34:35 -0000 On 2004-04-23 17:23:24 +0100 Tom Chance wrote: > [...] Would we be able > to get something like Debian had last week, at future expos? Yes, but would it be the best use of our money? Debian got theirs this time mainly by being very popular at the last expo, I think. Will we ever be in that league? From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 19:49:48 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAMt-00024T-O8 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:46:03 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAMM-0001Pb-CY for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:45:30 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHALY-0000Z9-Vg for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:45:12 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.9] (helo=shockwave.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHAKu-000089-HT for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:44:00 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E21651C000BC for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:43:55 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 481 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:43:48 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:43:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <1082739267.13155.77.camel@lapland.alexworld> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:45:51 -0000 On 2004-04-23 17:54:27 +0100 Alex Hudson wrote: > There is the whole "behind the stand"/"in front of stand" debate. This should not be a debate. Putting a barrier between you and the people you are trying to talk with is terrible behaviour. I think I have been told this in every training session for fairs that I have ever had. At the NEC, we got away with it because there was space to move around inside and outside the bench and the ceiling was high enough that you can be heard across the desk pretty easily. Olympia is a bit more crowded and echo-prone. I think this stand was the best .org I have seen at Olympia and probably one of the best stands there besides the big companies, but there may be still some improvement possible in its design and/or our use of it. Hard for me to suggest on that, as I didn't work by the stand much this time. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Apr 23 20:56:18 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHBS3-0000aM-H9 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:55:27 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHBRf-0008R1-1g for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:55:03 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHBQW-0006uu-Et for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:54:23 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHBPZ-0006Cs-Tk for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:52:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F5FE6E1B for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:49:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09673-18 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:49:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748D6E6DBC for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:49:12 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:50:21 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> In-Reply-To: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:55:24 -0000 On Saturday 24 Apr 2004 00:43, MJ Ray wrote: > On 2004-04-23 17:54:27 +0100 Alex Hudson wrote: > > There is the whole "behind the stand"/"in front of stand" debate. > > This should not be a debate. Putting a barrier between you and the > people you are trying to talk with is terrible behaviour. I think I > have been told this in every training session for fairs that I have > ever had. At the NEC, we got away with it because there was space to > move around inside and outside the bench and the ceiling was high > enough that you can be heard across the desk pretty easily. Olympia is > a bit more crowded and echo-prone. > > I think this stand was the best .org I have seen at Olympia and > probably one of the best stands there besides the big companies, but > there may be still some improvement possible in its design and/or our > use of it. Hard for me to suggest on that, as I didn't work by the > stand much this time. How are you defining "best" here? In terms of the materials on the stand, and the preparation by AFFS members (especially in Alex's radio interview, and the leaflets), it was excellent. But aside from that interview, a few people buying books and t-shirts, even fewer actually talking to us while I was there, having the AFFS name present to improve recognition, and some good discussion with related groups, I'm not sure it was worth our while being there. I've not done anything similar at other expos, so maybe it's par course, but I've achieved more on a campaign stall in a cafe in an hour than I did all day there. That's not a reflection on my skills on public stalls (I'm pretty bad, to be honest), but on the fact that I don't see what the AFFS and other groups like us gain from giving up two full days to stand there. I've been thinking a bit more about things we could do with that sort of set-up: 1) Provide a Q&A on Free Software issues, and advertise it wherever possible around the expo (even if it means handing out leaflets at the entrance) 2) Have a specific campaign message to deliver to all the stands in the expo, minus those staffed exclusively by sales reps (e.g. "can your project publicly endorse this campaign?") 3) Have something like a petition, a postcard or pre-written letter, a mailing list signup form, or something similar so people can achieve something on the spot by giving up all of 30 seconds 4) Organise a proper pow-wow between activists, inviting anyone present to join in What do people think? Am I being too negative, or can we do something more productive than stand and chat amongst ourselves all day? :-) Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 04:50:03 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHIrE-0007Bh-VP for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:49:56 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHIr8-00074o-PZ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:49:50 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHIqW-0006oN-LT for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:49:43 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.30) id 1BHIqW-0006nY-CB for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:49:12 -0400 Received: from [213.152.57.82] (helo=d.me) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHIhC-0004on-R1 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:39:34 -0400 Received: from nickhill.co.uk (d [127.0.0.1]) by d.me (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FAF284352 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:39:29 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:39:29 +0100 From: Nick Hill User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-gb MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.6.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:49:52 -0000 The level of public engagement at the stall was a small fraction of the engagement at the October event. The visitor numbers to the expo were way, way down. The .org stand, being on the ground floor, could easily be missed by those not already aware of it. I feel the majority of visitors to the .org stands were friends of free software and/or know people on the projects. It was a great opportunity to network within the community and put faces to names. Tom Chance wrote: > On Saturday 24 Apr 2004 00:43, MJ Ray wrote: >>>There is the whole "behind the stand"/"in front of stand" debate. >>This should not be a debate. Putting a barrier between you and the >>people you are trying to talk with is terrible behaviour. If you are behind a counter, the visitor feels they have their own space and can come and go easily. Having a counter between you can be less intimidating for both parties. I believe not having a counter is good only once a relationship and comfort zone have been established, unless you have a strong 'natural magnetism'. Therefore, the .org village scared visitors but created a great .org talking shop. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 05:05:11 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJ5z-0002tI-NQ for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:11 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJ5x-0002t7-Ma for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:09 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJ5R-0002TA-07 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:08 -0400 Received: from [195.188.213.7] (helo=smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJ5Q-0002T0-Jr for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:04:36 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.101] ([82.42.48.22]) by smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:04:36 +0100 From: Paul To: FSFE Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hw4FyvotwMEpVAsxCdlD" Organization: At home. Message-Id: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.5.7 (1.5.7-2) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:04:33 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2004 09:04:36.0838 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AF34860:01C429DB] Subject: [Fsfe-uk] An idea X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:05:10 -0000 --=-hw4FyvotwMEpVAsxCdlD Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, A while back, I ran a small operation called RISC OS Charity Projects - it was rather successful. At one point, it was suggested that I take it to be a proper charity with all the fun it entailed. As an idea, would it worthwhile making FSFE a charitable institution? It would mean that people could donate (as with any charity) and get not only the benefits of giving to support free software, but also to write off part of the donation against tax. Just a though. TTFN Paul --=20 "There are four stages to any war First they ignore you, then they laugh at you Then they fight you, then YOU win." Ghandi --=-hw4FyvotwMEpVAsxCdlD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAii2husSVe5EZv3wRAgyuAKCWu+Pj6xT3M88ag+3G1I7pNc242QCdHJg0 Jr7roBmHsmfm7aRIGdRU25I= =I/eu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hw4FyvotwMEpVAsxCdlD-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 05:39:16 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJcy-0006MG-15 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:39:16 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJcv-0006Iv-Ac for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:39:13 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJcP-00060F-Mv for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:39:12 -0400 Received: from [213.152.57.82] (helo=d.me) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJcP-000606-Ah for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:38:41 -0400 Received: from nickhill.co.uk (d [127.0.0.1]) by d.me (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3745284352 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:38:40 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <408A359F.9000109@nickhill.co.uk> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:38:39 +0100 From: Nick Hill User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-gb MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.6.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:39:13 -0000 Tom Coady wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2004, at 09:39, Nick Hill wrote: > >> The visitor numbers to the expo were way, way down. > > > Really? Is that official? I haven't checked oficial figures. >I wonder why? Too much sunshine outside? I asked an editor at LinuxUser, who suggested this be due to LinuxFormat and HPaQ not supporting the expo. > >> The .org stand, being on the ground floor, could easily be missed by >> those not already aware of it. > > > Only by the bind and the intentionally ignorant:... In normal situations, yes. However, when you enter a show, your senses are bombarded. You have to filter stuff out. Things which are normally obvious become non-obvious. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 05:45:02 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJiY-0001m0-15 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:45:02 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJiV-0001lA-9x for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:44:59 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJiT-0001kF-1T for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:44:57 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJiS-0001jw-JC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:44:56 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82F727EE7 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:44:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK In-Reply-To: <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1082799880.13155.183.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:44:40 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:45:00 -0000 On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 09:39, Nick Hill wrote: > The level of public engagement at the stall was a small fraction of > the engagement at the October event. > > The visitor numbers to the expo were way, way down. It would be nice to know the figures. A lot of people have said it was much quieter; but, I've also heard that upstairs was much busier than down. Since I didn't really go upstairs at all I have no idea. We seemed to get good surges of people from the actual conference every time something finished; although many just seemed to walk back upstairs. Wednesday seemed to be a lot quieter than Tuesday too; I wonder whether it was to do with the weather? > It was a great opportunity to network within the community and put > faces to names. Absolutely. I would say it was definitely worth going - I think Tom's point about it not being worthwhile was because he probably saw the quietest part of the show; Weds morning was almost dead downstairs at times. > If you are behind a counter, the visitor feels they have their own space > and can come and go easily. Having a counter between you can be less > intimidating for both parties. I believe not having a counter is good > only once a relationship and comfort zone have been established, unless > you have a strong 'natural magnetism'. > > Therefore, the .org village scared visitors but created a great .org > talking shop. I wouldn't go as far to say it scared visitors. But, it was quite easy to fill up the space in front of the counter, and if stand staff could be behind the counter it would have freed things up a little bit. However, as I said, I liked being able to stick stuff up on the noticeboards - that was really useful. I'd also like to know whether more projects got in the village this time - it seemed like there were more people there, which is again a bonus. Cheers, Alex. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 05:54:42 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJrt-000589-BG for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:54:41 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJrj-00055Z-RI for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:54:31 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJrf-00052Q-Vv for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:54:29 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJoA-0003zm-GU for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:50:50 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56B227EE7 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:50:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] An idea From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK In-Reply-To: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> References: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:50:34 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:54:33 -0000 On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 10:04, Paul wrote: > As an idea, would it worthwhile making FSFE a charitable institution? > It would mean that people could donate (as with any charity) and get > not only the benefits of giving to support free software, but also to > write off part of the donation against tax. FSFE is a charitable institution. One of the reasons it's split into the various chapters is because there is no such thing Europe-wide (FSFE is German), and the chapters attempt to be a local charity of sorts. AFFS looked at charitable status when we first set up; the problem we encountered was basically how political you can be. Being a charity doesn't stop you doing political things, but you have to be very careful about how you go about it (the charities commission do a leaflet about it) and there are always various things you can't do (like spend money achieving political goals). So, it is potentially more trouble than it's worth, although I think the German setup is substantially different than what you can achieve in the UK. Cheers, Alex. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 06:05:09 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK1s-00052S-HC for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:05:00 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK1O-0004Qb-1Z for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:04:30 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJxX-0002z2-Fk for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:01:04 -0400 Received: from [80.0.192.110] (helo=ccserver.keris.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHJxK-0002bE-QO for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:00:18 -0400 Received: from ccrough by ccserver.keris.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BHJx7-0000RJ-00; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:00:05 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:00:05 +0100 From: Chris Croughton To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <20040424110005.C20527@keris.net> References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk>; from nick@nickhill.co.uk on Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:39:29AM +0100 Organization: Keristor Systems Sender: Chris Croughton X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:04:54 -0000 On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:39:29AM +0100, Nick Hill wrote: > If you are behind a counter, the visitor feels they have their own space > and can come and go easily. Having a counter between you can be less > intimidating for both parties. I believe not having a counter is good > only once a relationship and comfort zone have been established, unless > you have a strong 'natural magnetism'. As a visitor to such things (not ones the FSFE have been at, but others) I agree. And to me people with "strong 'natural magnetism'" are even more of a threat, I want them behind bars (er, desks) not crowding me. I want to know that if I feel threatened or pressurised I can just walk away in my own 'space'. There is a good reason that most car salesmen have desks between them and the customers, and it's largely to do with that feeling of a safety distance. I'm sure most people will have had encounters with salesmen and others who get up close and 'intimate', sorry but if someone I don't know does that with me they are likely to get a knee in the groin or other painful place. Once a relationship has been established, a visitor can then be invited behind the desk where the intimacy of "you're one of us now" can be used to good effect. And of course those who are already part of the team have somewhere of their own... Chris C From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 06:07:39 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK3Z-0006QY-Ni for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:06:45 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK3F-0006C2-Md for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:06:25 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK2I-0005ab-Kb for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:06:00 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHK1n-0004wa-Sn for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:04:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8221CE6EB9 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:01:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00456-18 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:01:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from piglet.bogusdomain.com (cpc1-kemp1-6-0-cust126.lutn.cable.ntl.com [81.96.114.126]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48472E6EB4 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:01:12 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] An idea Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:02:24 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> In-Reply-To: <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404241102.24575.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:06:44 -0000 On Saturday 24 Apr 2004 10:50, Alex Hudson wrote: > On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 10:04, Paul wrote: > > As an idea, would it worthwhile making FSFE a charitable institution? > > It would mean that people could donate (as with any charity) and get > > not only the benefits of giving to support free software, but also to > > write off part of the donation against tax. > > FSFE is a charitable institution. One of the reasons it's split into the > various chapters is because there is no such thing Europe-wide (FSFE is > German), and the chapters attempt to be a local charity of sorts. > > AFFS looked at charitable status when we first set up; the problem we > encountered was basically how political you can be. Being a charity > doesn't stop you doing political things, but you have to be very careful > about how you go about it (the charities commission do a leaflet about > it) and there are always various things you can't do (like spend money > achieving political goals). > > So, it is potentially more trouble than it's worth, although I think the > German setup is substantially different than what you can achieve in the > UK. We'd also not be able to give money to any other charities, i.e. the FSF or FSFE. To be clear, the AFFS could pursue political campaigns, so long as: - They were ancillary to the main purposes of the AFFS - They specifically further the main purposes of the AFFS - They don't take any party line - They don't oppose specific legislation To get an idea, Oxfam is a charity, but Greenpeace isn't. But, I'm not sure the AFFS would have substantial goals not related to political campaigns, to which the campaigns can be seen only as contributory. Regards, Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 06:50:14 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHKg7-00044q-Jb for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:46:35 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHKfy-0003zP-2c for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:46:26 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHKf1-0003l0-Ix for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:45:59 -0400 Received: from [212.104.129.89] (helo=mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHKez-0003k7-QR for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:45:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1D64068C3 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:43:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24526-01-78 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:43:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from bagpuss.thebowery (unknown [81.168.118.51]) by mra02.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFE14067BB for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:43:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from adam by bagpuss.thebowery with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BHKev-0001v5-00 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:45:21 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:45:21 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <20040424104521.GJ560@thebowery.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: adam@thebowery.co.uk X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:46:31 -0000 On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:39:29AM +0100, Nick Hill wrote: > The level of public engagement at the stall was a small fraction of the > engagement at the October event. > > The visitor numbers to the expo were way, way down. > > The .org stand, being on the ground floor, could easily be missed by > those not already aware of it. I couldn't make this Expo this time due to sickness :( but last year in October we had a massive draw because the stand was covered in Nicks Gnu merchandise which was a really big positive and also we were right next to the coffee and sandwich stand so people would take about 3 steps after getting their food/beverage and blindly wander into the front of our stand. I think it was easy for people to be sipping their coffee and looking at pretty merchandise then to be asked with a friendly "hi there, would you like a leaflet" and then it was easy to gauge if they wanted you to shutup and leave them alone or they wanted be talked to. Just as another point of reference I think at the October expo we signed up 3x-4x as many people as this time. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 08:52:22 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHMZQ-0001sP-A8 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:47:48 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHMXa-000128-OC for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:45:54 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHMWc-0000Dn-Gd for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:45:26 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHMTw-0006po-Vc for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:42:09 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D6F621C000AC for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:42:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 453 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:41:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:41:58 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <6b6afe708bf22e8108a65356c1343d86@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:47:46 -0000 On 2004-04-24 01:50:21 +0100 Tom Chance wrote: > On Saturday 24 Apr 2004 00:43, MJ Ray wrote: >> I think this stand was the best .org I have seen at Olympia and >> probably one of the best stands there besides the big companies [...] > How are you defining "best" here? Just the physical, really. This design was much more usable than past ones. I think the problems with it were probably caused by physical constraints on its venue. I agree with all of your suggestions and would love to see as many as possible used at future events. We probably hit limits on volunteer time unless we get more help. When's the next show and can we get volunteers started now? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 10:20:14 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO0K-0005fF-Bf for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:19:40 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO02-0005No-DV for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:19:22 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHNzO-0004Vp-99 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:19:14 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHNzN-0004TM-G7 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:18:41 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BHNzH-0004qr-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:18:35 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BHNzM-0001I3-00 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:18:40 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:18:40 +0100 To: FSFE-UK Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] An idea Message-ID: <20040424141840.GA4890@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: FSFE-UK References: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:19:35 -0000 On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:50:34AM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote: > So, it is potentially more trouble than it's worth, although I think the > German setup is substantially different than what you can achieve in the > UK. True, German laws do not contain any restrictions in terms of political activities. I believe all political parties (like SPD, CDU, etc) themselves have charitable status. Surely an advantage for something like FSFE. Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 10:23:19 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO3q-0001Bk-Do for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:23:18 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO3f-0000zR-6f for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:23:07 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO32-0008F2-7p for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:23:00 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHO1P-0006nZ-8K for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:20:47 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EC0311C0012D for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:20:44 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 592 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:20:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:20:37 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <312cfbb2728d3c3c0fc1823c182990ac@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:23:10 -0000 On 2004-04-24 09:39:29 +0100 Nick Hill wrote: > The visitor numbers to the expo were way, way down. Anyone know where we can get data? I'm not sure we had an official number for the October one, only the rumour of 6000. > If you are behind a counter, the visitor feels they have their own > space and > can come and go easily. Having a counter between you can be less > intimidating > for both parties. Stand staff really need not be intimidated by a show situation. If they do feel that way, that's something we need to fix. > I believe not having a counter is good only once a > relationship and comfort zone have been established, unless you have > a strong > 'natural magnetism'. Of course, invading your visitors' space is not good behaviour, but I don't suggest it. You must give visitors space and allow them to move. Did some .org stand staff start "trapping"? Yikes. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 10:32:17 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOCX-0000Vd-BT for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:32:17 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOCU-0000U1-F3 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:32:14 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOBt-0000Dj-Po for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:32:08 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOBZ-0008Vu-RJ for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:31:17 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 700F21C00041 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:31:08 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 603 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:31:02 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:31:01 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <13544766ddfba5586935070671605e34@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <20040424110005.C20527@keris.net> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:32:15 -0000 On 2004-04-24 11:00:05 +0100 Chris Croughton wrote: > As a visitor to such things (not ones the FSFE have been at, but > others) > I agree. And to me people with "strong 'natural magnetism'" are even > more of a threat, I want them behind bars (er, desks) not crowding me. > I want to know that if I feel threatened or pressurised I can just > walk > away in my own 'space'. Sure, this space and freedom is vital, but there needs to be an invitation to approach. Stands with a counter barring entry usually have the staff lined along the desk looking out and trying to attract people to talk (reminds me of perching vultures) or in small activities or discussions behind the desk (reminds me of vultures ripping carcasses to shreds). > There is a good reason that most car salesmen have desks between them > and the customers, and it's largely to do with that feeling of a > safety > distance. In my experience (and I don't buy that many cars), the desk only seems to come into play when negotiating and doing paperwork. Before then, the salesman is wandering around the vehicle with the customer, enticing them to investigate and highlighting points. The role of the added distance during negotiations seems more complex than just safety distance. If the car salesroom was designed like a counter-barred stand, with cars lined up on the counter-top, customers one side of the counter and salesmen the other, would many be sold? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 11:02:55 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOgA-0007Xy-PO for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:02:54 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOg7-0007UC-5O for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:02:51 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOXh-0002PZ-By for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:54:41 -0400 Received: from [195.188.213.9] (helo=smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHOXT-0002C3-6v for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:53:55 -0400 Received: from j12.org ([82.41.72.252]) by smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:53:56 +0100 Message-ID: <408A8DA1.4070904@j12.org> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:54:09 +0100 From: Space Bunny User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040115 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FSFE-UK Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] An idea References: <1082797473.13699.12.camel@T7.linux> <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> In-Reply-To: <1082800234.13155.190.camel@lapland.alexworld> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2004 14:53:57.0045 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8350E50:01C42A0B] X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:02:51 -0000 Alex Hudson wrote: >So, it is potentially more trouble than it's worth, although I think the >German setup is substantially different than what you can achieve in the >UK. > > England and Wales rather than UK as Charity law and regulation is very different in Scotland. There is no Charities Commission it is all administered by inland revenue. There is less over sight of charities, which means it it a lost less hassle. But this may change in future as their have been scandal with charities the sort that do pub collections often saying for medical causes having 80% admin costs. But for now it makes much more sense to set up a charity in Scotland it is still a hassle to set one up, but once set up their there is little active auditing of activity which bogs down campaigning aspects of ones in England and Wales. One result in Scotland that to get some of advantages of being a charity one has to go through another process of assessment almost as much as getting status rather than status acting as 100% passport to benefit. Getting 80% reduction in rates from local council but again it was one off and once got ongoing. btw I think the TheOpenCD/SoftwareFreedomDay bods were thinking of setting up an organisational vehicle of some form to handle funds with them, and looking into what that form should be. But their key bods are based in Oxford. http://theopencd.org In US it is so complex to set up and run what they call a 508 Non-Profit that mainly orgs have a big group that is one sponsoring them to get tax advantage. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 13:12:25 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHQg6-0006Yf-Df for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:10:58 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHQfh-00063g-BG for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:10:33 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHQf0-0005Tj-Gp for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:10:22 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHQez-0005SS-Lv for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:09:49 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F7A41C00128 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:09:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1153 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:09:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:09:41 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] An idea Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <408A8DA1.4070904@j12.org> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:10:56 -0000 On 2004-04-24 16:54:09 +0100 Space Bunny wrote: > But for now it makes much more sense > to set up a charity in Scotland it is still a hassle to set one up, > but once > set up their there is little active auditing of activity which bogs > down > campaigning aspects of ones in England and Wales. I never thought of that. What information do you have on it? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 13:33:25 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHR1o-0003gv-NP for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:33:24 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHR1j-0003W3-Mq for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:33:19 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHR14-0002Wu-N9 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:33:10 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHR14-0002We-10 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:32:38 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F0534C0024B for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:32:35 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1305 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:32:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:32:27 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: [Fsfe-uk] swpat: illegal? X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:33:22 -0000 An interesting point of view? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2004-04-22 23:35:04 +0100 From: Christian Beauprez Subject: Software Patenting is illegal Dear Sirs, As someone who studied law and as a programmer I have taken these issues to heart and conducted extensive research into the subject of international obligations and "software inventions" I wanted to bring to your attention the fact that such software patenting is in breach of international agreements namely the Berne Convenetion, WIPO Copyright, and the TRIPS Treaty despite what many IP lawyers would have us believe. (The European Communities and the US signed these treaties) I gave a speech on this at the FFII conference in the EU Parliament and wanted to make sure that people understand this. My speech comes with hyperlinked footnotes linking to all the relevant treaties so that people can see for themselves and make their own minds up. You can find it at: http://www.beauprez.net/softpat/ffii-talk140404.html For your reference I have added a compliance chart that shows conformity to these obligations showing both Parliament and Council proposals. http://www.beauprez.net/softpat/compliance.html I have also written a "dream directive" that shows how simple it is to have a directive on "computer implemented inventions" that would allow inventions with teachings to applied natural science while disallowing pure software patentability. http://www.beauprez.net/softpat/dreamdirective.html Kindest Regards, Christian Beauprez From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 14:42:39 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHS6p-0002Xv-Hl for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:42:39 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHS6m-0002WC-6E for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:42:36 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHS69-0001U0-Qx for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:42:29 -0400 Received: from [195.188.213.8] (helo=smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHS69-0001SH-Bz for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:41:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.101] ([82.42.48.22]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:41:59 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo From: Paul To: FSFE In-Reply-To: <408A359F.9000109@nickhill.co.uk> References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> <408A359F.9000109@nickhill.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-4ceTbkNhJConnmO9NJu3" Organization: At home. Message-Id: <1082832114.13699.23.camel@T7.linux> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.5.7 (1.5.7-2) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:41:55 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2004 18:41:59.0731 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3B94030:01C42A2B] X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:42:37 -0000 --=-4ceTbkNhJConnmO9NJu3 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > >I wonder why? Too much sunshine outside? >=20 > I asked an editor at LinuxUser, who suggested this be due to LinuxFormat > and HPaQ not supporting the expo. Possibly, though I have heard tell that C18 would be paying a visit which bulked up security. From noises I've heard, Mr Gomeche has been trying to get some sort of agro put onto DNUK, UK Linux, LU and Jason Clifford via C18. May have had an impact, it's hard to say. TTFN Paul --=20 "There are four stages to any war First they ignore you, then they laugh at you Then they fight you, then YOU win." Ghandi --=-4ceTbkNhJConnmO9NJu3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAirTyusSVe5EZv3wRAgo7AJ0XSu2T99u1PlR++1i4rwIL6MPf7wCeNLFA BBG6+GousboVeUUU0wg+EKk= =nOG6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-4ceTbkNhJConnmO9NJu3-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 14:52:51 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSGg-0003Zg-Ku for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:52:50 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSGS-0003SE-B1 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:52:36 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSG3-00031J-Nm for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:52:14 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSFl-0002cK-VF for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:51:54 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B00A27EE7 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:51:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK In-Reply-To: <1082832114.13699.23.camel@T7.linux> References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> <408A359F.9000109@nickhill.co.uk> <1082832114.13699.23.camel@T7.linux> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1082832697.20831.3.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:51:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:52:49 -0000 On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 19:41, Paul wrote: > > I asked an editor at LinuxUser, who suggested this be due to > > LinuxFormat and HPaQ not supporting the expo. (Personally, I think the weather was a key-ish factor... ;) > Possibly, though I have heard tell that C18 would be paying a visit > which bulked up security. From noises I've heard, Mr Gomeche has been > trying to get some sort of agro put onto DNUK, UK Linux, LU and Jason > Clifford via C18. Well, if they were on the lookout for C18, I'm not sure what kind of descriptions they had - this leather-clad skinhead got into the hall with a funny looking bag, no ID and a crap excuse about looking for the exhibitor's office ;) Clearly my weights mornings are not bulking me up to sufficient meanness. Cheers, Alex. PS. Paul - nice to see Scribus well represented at the show; we were next door to you. Franz is an absolute star :o) From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Apr 24 15:24:38 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSi3-0003hT-2E for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:21:07 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHShS-0002qo-VU for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:20:30 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSgg-0001e0-80 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:20:14 -0400 Received: from [195.188.213.6] (helo=smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHSfu-0000mZ-QT for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:18:54 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.101] ([82.42.48.22]) by smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:18:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo From: Paul To: FSFE In-Reply-To: <1082832697.20831.3.camel@lapland.alexworld> References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408A27C1.5070605@nickhill.co.uk> <408A359F.9000109@nickhill.co.uk> <1082832114.13699.23.camel@T7.linux> <1082832697.20831.3.camel@lapland.alexworld> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-ZL/eMNe0hDne/I9DPoVq" Organization: At home. Message-Id: <1082834332.3186.1.camel@T7.linux> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.5.7 (1.5.7-2) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:18:53 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2004 19:18:57.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[FD5E77C0:01C42A30] X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:21:02 -0000 --=-ZL/eMNe0hDne/I9DPoVq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > PS. Paul - nice to see Scribus well represented at the show; we were > next door to you. Franz is an absolute star :o) Franz is one of the best - he is an absolute pleasure to work with. It's a pity I couldn't make it to the Linux Expo (I was at the ACCU conference the week before), but with a bit of luck, we'll have enough nominations for the LU awards again this year and as they've increased the number of catagories, we won't be up against the might of Sun and OpenOffice. TTFN Paul --=20 "There are four stages to any war First they ignore you, then they laugh at you Then they fight you, then YOU win." Ghandi --=-ZL/eMNe0hDne/I9DPoVq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAir2cusSVe5EZv3wRAuYMAJ97LDMUGOofe7AvaKORH01oTCwdUACePE0G kESJXBPO7ZwDRPrrhq+MxMs= =3mRl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ZL/eMNe0hDne/I9DPoVq-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 25 08:52:26 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHj6y-0000Eo-JI for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:51:56 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHj6b-00084l-7b for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:51:33 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHj5m-0006wd-D5 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:51:14 -0400 Received: from [80.84.72.21] (helo=s1.uklinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHiyb-0004lI-Ao for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:43:17 -0400 Received: from mail.uklinux.net (mail.uklinux.net [80.84.72.21]) by s1.uklinux.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i3PChFU05745 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:43:15 +0100 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:43:14 +0100 (BST) From: Brian Teeman To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo In-Reply-To: <1082832697.20831.3.camel@lapland.alexworld> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:51:47 -0000 I'll try and answer many of the comments made in this one email. Visitor numbers. I'm not sure of the actual numbers but I suspect they were very similar to last time. But you have to remember that the show floor space was over double that of the last Expo in London. So obviously it will have seemed quieter. In front or behind a counter. Personaly I prefer the behind a counter option but the stand was changed to be in front as a result of feedback from the last expo. Specifically from AFFS. Being in front of the counter does increase the amount of wall space available for posters etc Grouping political/campaigns together. This was specifically not done this time after complaints from AFFS at previous expos. The feeling expressed to me from AFFS that the visitors were unable to differentiate between the different campaigns. (Note UKCDR and FFII wanted to be together as did GLLUG and LONIX and Rosegarden and LinuxAudio) Amount of stand space. I tried to allocate stand space so that everyone had the same amount of space (appprox 2m). Debian are a separate case as they are by far the largest .org in the UK. Every square metre of stand space at the expo costs over #300. Just because there is empty space in the hall doess not mean that it is free. Number of participants This year there were more participants in the .Org village than ever before. In fact it was the largest .Org Village at any linux expo in the english language world. As each expo passes the demand for stand space increases. Where at all possible I will not make a decision on who can or cannot particpate. (The only exceptions were when requests came in in the last 2 weeks before the show and I did my best to fit them in although one of the late requests chose not to repky when I ahd arranged some extra space for them). If AFFS want to have their own stand there is nothing to stop it. You would then be able to do what you wanted with it and have it located wherever in the expo you can negotiate with the oragnisers. Of course you will then have to pay for it. AFAIK the cheapest stand at the expo this year was #1000. Is that the best use of AFFS funds? (Does AFFS even have that amount of money? Brian .Org-aniser and Sponsor of the .Org Village From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 25 14:30:01 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoO9-0004ZQ-MI for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:30:01 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoO7-0004ZJ-6j for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:29:59 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoNb-0004SC-GW for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:29:58 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoNb-0004S0-6l for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:29:27 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D6231C001FF for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:29:24 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 2449 invoked by uid 1000); Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:29:20 -0000 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:29:17 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <2bf6d2f0103cd544a6fab39b3e88b845@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:29:59 -0000 On 2004-04-25 13:43:14 +0100 Brian Teeman wrote: > be in front as a result of feedback from the last expo. Specifically > from > AFFS. In the feedback form answers I saw sent to Alex about the last expo (who was the hard-working stand contact, then as this time) (Subject: Re: Linux Expo .Org Village (Feedback request)), there was nothing about front/back or stand groupings, but I guess it might have been done by direct mail. > AFAIK the cheapest stand at the expo this year was #1000. Is > that the best use of AFFS funds? I don't think so, but I might be persuaded. > (Does AFFS even have that amount of money? Yes. It fluctuates a little, but on 13 April, AFFS had 1820 pounds in its current account alone (ready to start writing cheques when the awards process is decided). -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 25 14:40:06 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoXu-0004J9-HB for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:40:06 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoVz-0003ls-Rh for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:38:07 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoVB-0002NO-10 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:37:49 -0400 Received: from [80.84.72.21] (helo=s1.uklinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHoUp-0001XF-8i for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:36:55 -0400 Received: from mail.uklinux.net (mail.uklinux.net [80.84.72.21]) by s1.uklinux.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i3PIapM03260; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:36:52 +0100 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:36:51 +0100 (BST) From: Brian Teeman To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo In-Reply-To: <2bf6d2f0103cd544a6fab39b3e88b845@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:40:04 -0000 On Sun, 25 Apr 2004, MJ Ray wrote: > On 2004-04-25 13:43:14 +0100 Brian Teeman wrote: > > be in front as a result of feedback from the last expo. Specifically > > from > > AFFS. > > In the feedback form answers I saw sent to Alex about the last expo > (who was the hard-working stand contact, then as this time) (Subject: > Re: Linux Expo .Org Village (Feedback request)), there was nothing > about front/back or stand groupings, but I guess it might have been > done by direct mail. Yes from you. You were quite specific about not wanting to be next to cdr etc. > > > AFAIK the cheapest stand at the expo this year was #1000. Is > > that the best use of AFFS funds? > > I don't think so, but I might be persuaded. > > > (Does AFFS even have that amount of money? > > Yes. It fluctuates a little, but on 13 April, AFFS had 1820 pounds in > its current account alone (ready to start writing cheques when the > awards process is decided). > > < From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 25 17:56:06 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrba-0006vt-5Z for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:56:06 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrbX-0006vf-B4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:56:03 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrb1-0006iT-MK for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:56:02 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrb1-0006hp-Bj for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 17:55:31 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B95D84C0008F; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:55:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1306 invoked by uid 1000); Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:55:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:55:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <191c4e68a42490dfc8f0382d50f048d1@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: Brian Teeman Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:56:03 -0000 On 2004-04-25 19:36:51 +0100 Brian Teeman wrote: > Yes from you. > You were quite specific about not wanting to be next to cdr etc. Brian, I am not AFFS. No need to blame the other hundred-and-whatever people for something I do personally. My emails are usually quite clear about this. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 25 18:15:05 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrtw-00077H-QR for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:15:04 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrtt-00074F-Bl for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:15:01 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrtL-0006oj-OB for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:14:59 -0400 Received: from [80.84.72.21] (helo=s1.uklinux.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BHrtL-0006oP-Ap for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:14:27 -0400 Received: from mail.uklinux.net (mail.uklinux.net [80.84.72.21]) by s1.uklinux.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i3PMEPk00599; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:14:25 +0100 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:14:24 +0100 (BST) From: Brian Teeman To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo In-Reply-To: <191c4e68a42490dfc8f0382d50f048d1@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:15:03 -0000 On Sun, 25 Apr 2004, MJ Ray wrote: > On 2004-04-25 19:36:51 +0100 Brian Teeman wrote: > > > Yes from you. > > You were quite specific about not wanting to be next to cdr etc. > > Brian, I am not AFFS. No need to blame the other hundred-and-whatever > people for something I do personally. My emails are usually quite > clear about this. > > It would seam that whatever I do you, that is you personally and not AFFS, will never be happy. As a committee member of AFFS and as one of the members of AFFS who was at the last expo I can only presume that when you provided feedback on the last expo you were speaking as AFFS. I have reviewed your emails after the last expo and you were extremely specific about your likes and dislikes. I was not blaming anyone else. But I was suprised to see you personaly complaining about something you personally had requested. This is my last comment on this as I am not going to be drawn into what is obviously going to be a futile discussion. Please note however that in future I will only act upon emails that are specifically signed on behalf of AFFS. Brian Teeman .Organiser and Sponsor of the .Org Village From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 26 10:58:53 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7ZN-00075p-94 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:58:53 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7ZI-00073p-F4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:58:48 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7KQ-0003VG-RT for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:43:59 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.46] (helo=mta06-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7Jz-0003JI-Fn for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:42:59 -0400 Received: from ntlworld.com ([217.137.148.44]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040426144258.GESC20741.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com> for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:42:58 +0100 Message-ID: <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:43:14 +0100 From: Richard Smedley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040413 Debian/1.6-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:58:50 -0000 Tom Chance wrote: [snip] >there, having the AFFS name present to improve recognition, and some good >discussion with related groups, I'm not sure it was worth our while being >there. > One thing that would help immeasurably would be an AFFS or FSFE rep on the "Big Linux Debate" held on Weds lunchtime. There was a lot of talk about the"Linux desktop" taking over, but the "Open Source" solutions discussed were very much inclusive of proprietary software :-( The only people speaking up for Free Software were Don de Silva with a question from the audience and Jeremy Allison on the panel, who spoke up for the GNU GPL, and how it worked as a unifying force in Free Software, creating a level playing field. The other expo, this autumn, has a similar debate - we should act soon to get Free Software represented on the panel. - Richard btw Thanks to Alex and everyone else who helped out on the stand, and to Brian T for taking our comments on stand design into account this year ;-) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 26 11:12:34 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7hy-0000dK-Im for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:07:46 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7Rz-0005Yn-UP for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:51:15 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7MK-0004L7-H6 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:45:56 -0400 Received: from [62.253.162.44] (helo=mta04-svc.ntlworld.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BI7Ki-0003bC-Qy for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:43:44 -0400 Received: from ntlworld.com ([217.137.148.44]) by mta04-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040426144314.QSCE5565.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com> for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:43:14 +0100 Message-ID: <408D2033.1040300@ntlworld.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:44:03 +0100 From: Richard Smedley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040413 Debian/1.6-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: [OT] Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <13544766ddfba5586935070671605e34@bouncing.localnet> In-Reply-To: <13544766ddfba5586935070671605e34@bouncing.localnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:07:44 -0000 MJ Ray wrote: > If the car salesroom was designed like a counter-barred stand, with > cars lined up *on* the counter-top, customers one side of the counter > and salesmen the other, would many be sold? Only very small ones ;-P - Richard From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 26 15:18:15 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIBcM-0003Dz-US for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:18:14 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIBcK-0003Dh-0T for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:18:12 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIBbm-00039z-Sn for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:18:11 -0400 Received: from [194.73.73.93] (helo=rhenium.btinternet.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIBbm-00039l-DP for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:17:38 -0400 Received: from [81.131.179.84] (helo=localhost) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #25) id 1BIBbh-00029S-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:17:33 +0100 Received: from roger by localhost with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIA2P-0000c1-00 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:37:01 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> From: Roger Leigh Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:37:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> (Richard Smedley's message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:43:14 +0100") Message-ID: <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:18:12 -0000 Richard Smedley writes: > There was a lot of talk about the"Linux desktop" > taking over, but the "Open Source" solutions > discussed were very much inclusive of proprietary > software :-( > > The only people speaking up for Free Software were > Don de Silva with a question from the audience and > Jeremy Allison on the panel, who spoke up for the > GNU GPL, and how it worked as a unifying force > in Free Software, creating a level playing field. This is a very important point to get across. It's unfortunate that quite a number of people believe untruths spread by others about the nature of the GPL, to such an extent that they believe that it imposes usage restrictions and infects the systems they install it on. I didn't attend this year, but I came for a day to Birmingham last year, and I was quite shocked at the lack of knowledge of some of the other exhibitors. For example, some were manned by completely ignorant saledroids who didn't even understand what they were selling. On enquiring if $product would interoperate with $well_known_free_software they were well out of their depth (a database-related product, and they hadn't heard of PostgreSQL). And they hadn't the first clue about Free software. I'm sure this applied to many of the attendees as well. Was the situation improved this year? Could AFFS do more to advocate users of free software (particularly companies) make contributions to the development of the software that they depend on? I'm thinking of things like this: - Financial donations to specific individuals/projects - Donation of equipment - Donations of employee time and expertise (have you got your employer to disclaim copyright on work on free software, or assign it to the FSF?) - Employing free software programmers to work on free software As an example, I've recently ported GTK+ 2.2 and friends to Cygwin, and I'm now doing 2.4. This was done in work time for my employer (unfortuately, I don't get to work on free software all the time). I think the latter two are perhaps even better and longer lasting contributions than money, since you can see exactly what your "investment" has achieved. One argument that could be used it that given the savings the company makes by using free software over proprietary alternatives, could part of that saving be donated to free software projects? Regards, Roger -- Roger Leigh Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/ GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848. Please sign and encrypt your mail. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 26 16:53:54 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BID6f-00009b-4D for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:53:37 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BID4F-0007ds-K5 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:51:07 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BID29-0007Aw-7Y for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:49:28 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.143] (helo=mail.ukfsn.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BICzj-0006AC-V7 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:46:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD325E6F2B for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.ukfsn.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lucy.ukfsn.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14315-02 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (cpc4-rdng1-6-0-cust55.winn.cable.ntl.com [81.103.152.55]) by mail.ukfsn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B96E6F25 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) From: Tom Chance To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:43:52 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200404262143.52932.lists@tomchance.org.uk> X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:53:33 -0000 On Monday 26 Apr 2004 15:43, Richard Smedley wrote: > The other expo, this autumn, has a similar debate - > we should act soon to get Free Software represented > on the panel. I agree. It'd also be good if there could be a talk from an AFFS person, alongside all the presentations about the potential of Open Source in business, etc. if only to confuse PHBs with a slideshow that doesn't mention "strategy" or "syngery" ;-) And if nobody else volunteers, I'd be happy to do it, just so this doesn't get bounced around and nothing happens. Tom From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Apr 26 19:57:50 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIFyv-00034D-Lx for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:57:49 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIFyY-0002kY-Dz for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:57:26 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIFxb-0001xU-3b for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:56:58 -0400 Received: from [80.253.98.226] (helo=utopiav.ukhostslin.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.30) id 1BIFxa-0001tf-7a for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:56:26 -0400 Received: from mjr by utopiav.ukhostslin.com with local (Exim 4.22) id 1BIFxW-0002rw-LU; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:56:22 +0100 Received: (nullmailer pid 3272 invoked by uid 1002); Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:39:29 -0000 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo To: brian@uklinux.net (Brian Teeman) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:39:28 -0300 (BRT) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Teeman" at Apr 25, 2004 11:14:24 PM From: MJ Ray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1083026369.174726.3271.nullmailer@me> Sender: MJ Ray Cc: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:57:47 -0000 Brian Teeman wrote: > It would seam that whatever I do you, that is you personally and not AFFS, > will never be happy. Brian, please have some sense of proportion. I don't have my exact words here, but it was along the lines of "best stand". I probably won't be happy with you misattributing, even if I was happy with the stand. I'm even less happy about this chip you seem to have about me on lists recently. > As a committee member of AFFS and as one of the members of AFFS who was at > the last expo I can only presume that when you provided feedback on the > last expo you were speaking as AFFS. You could presume that, or you could believe me when I write "My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know". > This is my last comment on this as I am not going to be drawn into what is > obviously going to be a futile discussion. Cool. Works for me. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Apr 27 04:34:22 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIO2o-0000Cd-LK for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 04:34:22 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIO2i-0000Ai-H4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 04:34:16 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIO2C-0008SF-Em for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 04:34:15 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIO2B-0008Ra-Ud for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 04:33:44 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BIMkn-0006hR-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:11:41 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIMkL-0001dG-00 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:11:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:10:45 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <20040427071045.GA6094@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <200404262143.52932.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200404262143.52932.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:20 -0000 On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 06:37:01PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: > Could AFFS do more to advocate users of free software (particularly > companies) make contributions to the development of the software that > they depend on? I'm thinking of things like this: > > - Financial donations to specific individuals/projects > - Donation of equipment > - Donations of employee time and expertise > (have you got your employer to disclaim copyright on work on free > software, or assign it to the FSF?) > - Employing free software programmers to work on free software It's mainly a question of finding someone to do the actual work. There are lots of good things, we could do, if we only had a few more people being able to invest some time. We are clearly more limited in terms of volunteers than we are in financial terms. > One argument that could be used it that given the savings the company > makes by using free software over proprietary alternatives, could part > of that saving be donated to free software projects? Sure. Do you volunteer to get this started? On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 09:43:52PM +0100, Tom Chance wrote: > On Monday 26 Apr 2004 15:43, Richard Smedley wrote: > > The other expo, this autumn, has a similar debate - > > we should act soon to get Free Software represented > > on the panel. > > I agree. It'd also be good if there could be a talk from an AFFS person, > alongside all the presentations about the potential of Open Source in > business, etc. if only to confuse PHBs with a slideshow that doesn't mention > "strategy" or "syngery" ;-) > > And if nobody else volunteers, I'd be happy to do it, just so this doesn't get > bounced around and nothing happens. I think, you have the job. :-) Thanks for volunteering!!! Seriously, I fully agree, that we need to be more present at talks and events. Even if it is only one person in the audience asking some questions or even better someone giving a presentation. Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Apr 27 15:33:53 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIYL3-0005nW-Ht for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:33:53 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIYKy-0005l4-4K for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:33:48 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIYKO-0005WL-Kt for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:33:43 -0400 Received: from [194.73.73.92] (helo=carbon.btinternet.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIYKO-0005Va-8h for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:33:12 -0400 Received: from [81.131.83.161] (helo=localhost) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #25) id 1BIYKI-0000bY-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:33:09 +0100 Received: from roger by localhost with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIWrZ-0000ar-00 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:59:21 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <200404262143.52932.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> <20040427071045.GA6094@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> From: Roger Leigh Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:59:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040427071045.GA6094@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> (Marc Eberhard's message of "Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:10:45 +0100") Message-ID: <87llkhfgjq.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:33:49 -0000 Marc Eberhard writes: > On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 06:37:01PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: >> Could AFFS do more to advocate users of free software (particularly >> companies) make contributions to the development of the software that >> they depend on? I'm thinking of things like this: >> >> - Financial donations to specific individuals/projects >> - Donation of equipment >> - Donations of employee time and expertise >> (have you got your employer to disclaim copyright on work on free >> software, or assign it to the FSF?) >> - Employing free software programmers to work on free software > > It's mainly a question of finding someone to do the actual work. There are > lots of good things, we could do, if we only had a few more people being > able to invest some time. We are clearly more limited in terms of volunteers > than we are in financial terms. OK. >> One argument that could be used it that given the savings the company >> makes by using free software over proprietary alternatives, could part >> of that saving be donated to free software projects? > > Sure. Do you volunteer to get this started? What would this entail? I don't have many connections with companies (and certainly no-one in any position of influence), but would writing some material for AFFS about how people and companies could contribute to free software projects be a reasonable start? -- Roger Leigh Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/ GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848. Please sign and encrypt your mail. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 28 03:34:49 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjaj-0005L5-3q for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:34:49 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjag-0005KX-G1 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:34:46 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjaA-0005CD-KR for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:34:45 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjaA-0005C1-6x for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:34:14 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BIja7-00073v-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:34:11 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIja9-0004yL-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:34:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:34:13 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <20040428073413.GC18903@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org References: <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <200404262143.52932.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <0f8257d8623b019ca32cd928dc0e8151@bouncing.localnet> <200404240150.22079.lists@tomchance.org.uk> <408D2002.305@ntlworld.com> <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> <20040427071045.GA6094@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> <87llkhfgjq.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87llkhfgjq.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:34:47 -0000 On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:59:21PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: > What would this entail? I don't have many connections with companies > (and certainly no-one in any position of influence), but would writing > some material for AFFS about how people and companies could contribute > to free software projects be a reasonable start? Definitely! We surely need more information for interested people or companies on our web site and probably some as leaflets. Most stuff on gnu.org and FSFE is not that well suited for non-technical people, e.g. management. If you are willing to contribute and organise this a bit, I'm sure you'll get a lot of support and hints from other people here on the list! In terms of publicity: Does anyone know, how expensive ad space on walls, trains, etc is? Maybe we could run a campaign with a few good posters in the UK? Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 28 03:36:29 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjcK-0005ji-U7 for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:36:28 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjcI-0005jM-7X for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:36:26 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjbm-0005el-Hz for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:36:25 -0400 Received: from [134.151.79.46] (helo=hermes.aston.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIjbm-0005ed-4W for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:35:54 -0400 Received: from [134.151.54.165] (helo=nepomuk.aston.ac.uk) by hermes.aston.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 1BIjbj-00078d-00 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:35:51 +0100 Received: from marc by nepomuk.aston.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIjbl-0004yv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:35:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:35:53 +0100 To: AFFS mailing list Message-ID: <20040428073553.GD18903@nepomuk.aston.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: AFFS mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en,de X-PGP-KeyID: 7AE9CD6E X-PGP-CertKey: 4689 6D5B 4229 97CC D1D6 1972 0AEC D623 EB5C 8D9A X-Request-PGP: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/gpg.html Organization: Aston University, UK User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Marc Eberhard Subject: [Fsfe-uk] AFFSAC 2004 and AFFS AGM X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:36:26 -0000 Dear all, AFFS can now confirm Handsworth Grammar School as the venue for AFFSAC 2004 and AFFS's AGM on 15 MAY 2004. Many thanks to Richard Rothwell (head of ICT at the school) for the offer! Agenda for the AGM and proposed changes to the constitution will follow shortly. We can also confirm, that there will be tables available for interested companies to exhibit at the event. Thanks to all the companies who have already responded and taken up the offer! The price is GBP 100 and we still have a few tables left, but hurry! Catering will very very likely be on site this year as we're currently finalising details. Thanks, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________ email: marc@greenie.net, marc.eberhard@alumni.tum.de, marc@affs.org.uk email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Apr 28 22:21:32 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ1B5-0000rC-Ht for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:21:31 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ1B1-0000k9-5i for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:21:27 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ1AS-0000DX-4B for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:21:24 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ1AR-00008w-R9 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:20:51 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id DBFE74C00041; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:20:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1920 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:20:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:20:46 +0100 Message-ID: <726cafdf7b05b3f014342af1ee1ef64a@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk, FSFE-UK Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Free software and UK law X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:21:29 -0000 Do you know of any free software licences designed or audited for the law of one of the UK countries? Please reply off-list (I will summarise if asked) or on. Thanks for any help, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 03:33:07 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ62d-0004ow-Cd for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:33:07 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ62a-0004ng-2s for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:33:04 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ621-0004b9-2e for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:33:00 -0400 Received: from [217.158.120.130] (helo=mail.ukpost.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ620-0004az-PI for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:32:28 -0400 Received: from mail.ukpost.com (mail.ukpost.com [217.158.120.132]) by mail.ukpost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C871A1F8022; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:32:24 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:32:24 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Clifford To: MJ Ray In-Reply-To: <726cafdf7b05b3f014342af1ee1ef64a@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FSFE-UK , debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [Debian-uk] Free software and UK law X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:33:05 -0000 On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, MJ Ray wrote: > Do you know of any free software licences designed or audited for the=20 > law of one of the UK countries? Are *any* software licenses, including proprietary ones, written with UK=20 law in mind? Bearing in mind that without the license the user/distributor has no=20 rights at all, does it matter that much? The courts here (both in England= =20 and Scotland) have accepted license terms in the past. Jason Clifford --=20 UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ ADSL Broadband from just =A323.75 / month=20 From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 06:23:20 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ8hL-0000dn-Cv for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:23:19 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ8gK-0000Hc-QX for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:22:16 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ8et-0008J1-Tf for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:21:19 -0400 Received: from [216.136.174.114] (helo=smtp017.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ8es-0008Ho-S4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:20:46 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.78?) (northlondonjohn@80.42.84.223 with plain) by smtp017.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2004 10:20:45 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <726cafdf7b05b3f014342af1ee1ef64a@bouncing.localnet> References: <726cafdf7b05b3f014342af1ee1ef64a@bouncing.localnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: NorthLondon John Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Free software and UK law Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:21:37 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:23:17 -0000 On 29 Apr 2004, at 03:20, MJ Ray wrote: > Do you know of any free software licences designed or audited for the > law of one of the UK countries? > > Please reply off-list (I will summarise if asked) or on. Thanks for > any help, > Not really what you're looking for, but there's a creative commons UK localization project: http://creativecommons.org/projects/international/uk/ One of a number of localizations, the aim is to audit CC licenses for the UK (and shake out any US-specifics from the original licenses), and there's some heavyweight legal minds involved. Regards john From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 07:03:14 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9II-0001RW-MP for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:01:30 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ98z-0007lP-7v for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:51:53 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ983-0007Re-2O for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:51:38 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ982-0007RN-B3 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:50:54 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A652C1C0017E; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:50:53 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 534 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:50:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:50:53 +0100 Message-ID: <9fe75f1b166bfd5e3214b1aa051387b7@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: Jason Clifford Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: FSFE-UK , debian-uk@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [Debian-uk] Free software and UK law X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:01:27 -0000 On 2004-04-29 08:32:24 +0100 Jason Clifford wrote: > Are *any* software licenses, including proprietary ones, written with > UK law > in mind? Yes, as far as I know at the moment. The Poly/ML licence (non-free because of forced disclosure upstream) is one licence that I have found which seems to be and which I am enquiring about. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 07:18:58 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9UX-0003sL-Hz for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:14:09 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9PV-0002no-Q2 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:08:57 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9PP-0002mF-MP for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:08:53 -0400 Received: from [82.152.39.130] (helo=lapland.alexworld) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9Ol-0002fS-U1 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:08:12 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (lapland.alexworld [127.0.0.1]) by lapland.alexworld (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000E927EE7 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:07:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: CC-UK (was: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Free software and UK law) From: Alex Hudson To: FSFE-UK In-Reply-To: References: <726cafdf7b05b3f014342af1ee1ef64a@bouncing.localnet> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1083236875.15739.22.camel@lapland.alexworld> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-7) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:07:55 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:14:07 -0000 On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 11:21, NorthLondon John wrote: > Not really what you're looking for, but there's a creative commons UK > localization project: > http://creativecommons.org/projects/international/uk/ > One of a number of localizations, the aim is to audit CC licenses for > the UK (and shake out any US-specifics from the original licenses), and > there's some heavyweight legal minds involved. That's incredibly interesting, especially from the point of view of being able to bring QCs and Lord Justices on board (Lord Justice Jacob raising the same point Jason raised earlier - UK-only licenses are a bit of an exercise in futility, he describes them as "hopeless"). The Lord Justice's comments on fair use are interesting too (more in a bit). However, the *really* interesting thing is the last clause of the CC-UK clause (and, inter alia, the comments on it or in similar areas): h. A person who is not a party to this Licence will have no rights under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 to enforce any of its terms. Ok. This isn't a problem in itself, but raises two issues: i. does a party to the licence have contractual rights? ii. does UK law imply a contract in the scenario of a copyright licence, and can third parties enforce rights with other licences without the above clause? The reason I pose those is because the clause h) above seems to be entirely meaningless: I would have said that a person would not be able to invoke ROTP because there was no contract existent. Going back to Justice Jacob's commentary, his remark on the fair use clause within the licence was that it was unnecessary, since you "cannot contract out of these rights" (paraphrasing). Again, implying that contract rights exist. There are a couple of reasons why they feel this might be important (and I think it's worth asking them). It could be that they think these licences are contracts - this would be very significant, if the case (for example, the GPL starts becoming self-inconsistent at best; at worst, unusable). The second could be that there are no grounds for a licence to enforce rights other than those provided for by copyright law: if a licence somehow attempts to enforce rights outside of those - by design or accident - does it fall back to a contract somehow? Or, is it simply another way of trying to say "this is not a contract"? Or, are they so used to looking through the eyes of contract law they have missed the point? After all, although I suspect copyright law tends to be used to prosecute "misuse" of software, the defence would usually be reliant on a contract between customer and supplier rather than a general copyright grant per se. Maybe no-one else designs their licences like this (entirely possible). Cheers, Alex. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 08:00:54 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJA0Q-0000Tt-3l for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:47:06 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9zA-0000Fe-E9 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:45:48 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9qC-0007R2-1p for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:37:04 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJ9hC-000634-RM for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:27:14 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 506884C002FE for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:27:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 626 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:27:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:27:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <8d46055e46f2759687e771e6f91d8b8c@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <877jw23aki.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:47:03 -0000 On 2004-04-26 18:37:01 +0100 Roger Leigh wrote: > they hadn't the first clue about Free software. I'm sure this applied > to many of the attendees as well. Was the situation improved this > year? Not as far as I found, but I was not there for long this year, preferring to meet cool people like Jon Masters, Hugo Mills and others. > One argument that could be used it that given the savings the company > makes by using free software over proprietary alternatives, could part > of that saving be donated to free software projects? I am delighted to receive donations and add them to the AFFS funds intended for free software projects (something over 700 pounds at present IIRC), but I feel a little uncomfortable really driving for them until there is a decided way to use that money. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 09:08:35 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJBHG-0002PT-PK for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:08:34 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJBHD-0002OS-1F for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:08:31 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJAXA-0004mD-Dl for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:21:27 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.73] (helo=colossus.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJAU8-0004HA-Pz for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:17:48 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3813C1C00255 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:17:43 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 845 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:17:43 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:17:42 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <87llkhfgjq.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:08:32 -0000 On 2004-04-27 18:59:21 +0100 Roger Leigh wrote: > What would this entail? I don't have many connections with companies > (and certainly no-one in any position of influence), but would writing > some material for AFFS about how people and companies could contribute > to free software projects be a reasonable start? I would welcome that and put it on the AFFS web site (with a link to your working copy, if you wish) if people agree. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 09:53:41 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJByv-0002gs-3B for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:53:41 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJByr-0002fz-EK for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:53:37 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJByI-0002YV-D1 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:53:33 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJBi0-000884-VI for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:36:13 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FE3D4C00144 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:36:09 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1088 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:36:09 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:36:09 +0100 Subject: Re: CC-UK (was: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Free software and UK law) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <1083236875.15739.22.camel@lapland.alexworld> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:53:38 -0000 On 2004-04-29 12:07:55 +0100 Alex Hudson wrote: > [...] (Lord Justice Jacob > raising the same point Jason raised earlier - UK-only licenses are a > bit > of an exercise in futility, he describes them as "hopeless"). I agree. I'm not interested in UK-only licences (for they seem non-free immediately), but I am interested in UK laws analysis of major free software licence, as well as any designed for UK laws. The contract/licence thing happening again is worrying. This should probably go into some AFFS info sheet if we find good answers. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 17:14:53 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJIrs-0000Kr-Kq for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:14:52 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJIrq-0000KG-6U for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:14:50 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJIrI-0000D0-U4 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:14:49 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJIrI-0000CW-DB for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:14:16 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D770C4C0040A for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:14:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1878 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:14:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:14:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3c5eb413509dadc75a4cf32417fb6195@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: FSFE-UK Organization: Very poor X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Speakers, in general and at AFFSAC X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:14:51 -0000 I am sure someone mentioned the need for good AFFS speakers to appear at events like the LUDEx, but I think I deleted the email without replying. If you want to be listed as a potential speaker on a page on the AFFS site, please email frontdesk@affs.org.uk with the text you would like to appear (xhtml would be very helpful, but not essential). We will probably want to list when you joined AFFS and places where you have spoken, with links to their sites if possible. If you want another speaking opportunity, ideal for listing on the AFFS site, we still have too many unclaimed speaking slots for this year's AFFSAC for my liking. If you want to describe or present some free software in Birmingham on 15 May, please email me ASAP. Please pass this invitation on to other free software groups that you know. Once again, we want most of the talks to be practical and useful. Last year, even the legal talk was a practical guide to competition law. Thanks for any help, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 17:39:02 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJJFF-0007cC-RG for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:39:01 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJJF1-0007ZI-Vw for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:38:47 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJJER-0007L2-IF for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:38:42 -0400 Received: from [217.12.12.142] (helo=smtp800.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJJEQ-0007K1-Rc for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:38:10 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (fsfe-uk@gnu.org@81.131.159.219 with poptime) by smtp800.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 2004 21:38:06 -0000 Received: from roger by localhost with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BJIsN-0007VA-00 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:15:23 +0100 To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo References: <8d46055e46f2759687e771e6f91d8b8c@bouncing.localnet> From: Roger Leigh Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:15:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8d46055e46f2759687e771e6f91d8b8c@bouncing.localnet> (MJ Ray's message of "Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:27:12 +0100") Message-ID: <87oepa1o5x.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:38:50 -0000 MJ Ray writes: > On 2004-04-26 18:37:01 +0100 Roger Leigh > wrote: > >> they hadn't the first clue about Free software. I'm sure this applied >> to many of the attendees as well. Was the situation improved this >> year? > > Not as far as I found, but I was not there for long this year, > preferring to meet cool people like Jon Masters, Hugo Mills and others. > >> One argument that could be used it that given the savings the company >> makes by using free software over proprietary alternatives, could part >> of that saving be donated to free software projects? > > I am delighted to receive donations and add them to the AFFS funds > intended for free software projects (something over 700 pounds at > present IIRC), but I feel a little uncomfortable really driving for > them until there is a decided way to use that money. I would rather advise people on how they can contribute directly, rather than through an intermediary such as AFFS--this way they can donate to exactly the project/group they wish. This means we don't need to worry about how best to use the money. For example, I would include the FSF, FSFE, AFFS, FFII, EFF, Debian, =C2=BFSourceForge? and other organisations in this category. It's not going to be possible to list everyone, but pointing out the main projects which will put the money to good use should be doable. I'd very much like to encourage non-monetary contributions though. For non-programmers, I imagine the free software community can seem quite intimidating, but there are many ways in which non-coders can contribute, e.g. docs, testing, bug reporting, usability testing, feature requests, helping other users etc., and they can play a very important part. --=20 Roger Leigh Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/ GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848. Please sign and encrypt your m= ail. From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Apr 29 19:44:53 2004 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.30) id 1BJLD2-0006NT-1F for mharc-fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:44:52 -0400 Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJLCq-0006KT-L0 for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:44:40 -0400 Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BJLCD-00068R-WA for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:44:33 -0400 Received: from [62.241.160.193] (helo=pengo.systems.pipex.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BJKxN-0003w8-GN for fsfe-uk@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:28:41 -0400 Received: from me (81-86-163-141.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.163.141]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A7E24C00124 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:28:31 +0100 (BST) Received: (nullmailer pid 2181 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:28:31 -0000 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:28:31 +0100 Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User & Developer Expo Message-ID: <6bc3eb51f833028fb8fa2f9e313b79a3@bouncing.localnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Pantomime 1.1.2) From: MJ Ray To: fsfe-uk@gnu.org Organization: Very poor In-Reply-To: <87oepa1o5x.fsf@wrynose.whinlatter.uklinux.net> X-Mailer: GNUMail.app (Version 1.1.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: fsfe-uk@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: fsfe-uk.gnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:44:43 -0000 On 2004-04-29 22:15:22 +0100 Roger Leigh wrote: > I would rather advise people on how they can contribute directly, > rather than through an intermediary such as AFFS--this way they can > donate to exactly the project/group they wish. Yes, this sounds tricky and some guidance would be really helpful. From a general point-of-view, we need to avoid projects having to please a large group of small funders. That's part of the reason I think pooling money for UK projects through AFFS will be a good thing when it starts working. > I'd very much like to encourage non-monetary contributions though. I agree, donations in kind should go directly to the chosen project. There seems to be some confusion about how to do that well. If you send a badly-written email to a volunteer, even if you are trying to help test something, that volunteer may not spend extra time dealing with your email. I have seen some people get quite outraged that their block-caps missives get ignored by developers. It would be good to make siblings for "How to report bugs effectively" by Simon Tatham http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing