From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jun 20 08:17:24 2009 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1MHzVc-00037l-8C for mharc-help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:17:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MHzVa-00037O-C2 for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:17:22 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MHzVV-00034s-Qa for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:17:21 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=57220 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MHzVV-00034p-Iq for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:17:17 -0400 Received: from mo-p00-ob.rzone.de ([81.169.146.162]:19960) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MHzVV-00059O-8L for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:17:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1245500236; l=1417; s=domk; d=akfoerster.de; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From: Date:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; bh=NqgnSfnqnF45+T17iYDHeYJv87I=; b=aZ23a3x29Ly5e/0gvjB8ooisXR9r2iIVUhOm3TbqXJcqNUHVc3xg/fhlMcaOIk9AcLS y7j94RIq7r4xGsgPdssNBYFehlL0PVO+CAt7G7Y8VqoSLodaicInWmpbPUYC9qpw3dlrX j8/iTVc6aISoVK0ZuxRx7qRbZCMVUIasdY8= X-RZG-AUTH: :IW0Ne2CpcPkRKcNoBVPeC09YE+Mv+LyGT8dKEQRzHnMssggKYJeQr5Kkixnc9bM= X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from castrophe.akfoerster.de (dslb-088-078-235-102.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.78.235.102]) by post.strato.de (fruni mo17) (RZmta 18.42) with AES128-SHA encrypted ESMTP id w0387el5KCCLYv for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:17:16 +0200 (MEST) Received: from listen by castrophe.akfoerster.de with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MHzWW-000831-88 for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:18:20 +0200 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:18:20 +0200 From: list@akfoerster.de To: help-texinfo@gnu.org Message-ID: <20090620121819.GA20989@castrophe.akfoerster.de> Mail-Followup-To: help-texinfo@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-PGP-Key: http://akfoerster.de/AKFoerster.key User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) Subject: [help-texinfo] problems with German characters X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:17:22 -0000 Hello, I'm using Texinfo for one of my projects. Well, I can live with it for the English documentation, but the German documentation just gives me trouble. Can you help me? I use @documentlanguage de @documentencoding UTF-8 The main problem is using German characters in Nodes. When I used normal Unicode characters it worked to some extend. But in the PDF output the table of content in the sidebar was messed up. It replaced for example "ä" with "a". This is not only weird to read, but it can even change the meaning. The headline "Einfache Andwendugs-Fälle" (="simple use-cases") suddenly became "Einfache Anwendungs-Falle" (="simple use-trap") When I experimented with the docbook output and tried it with yelp, those links where even not accessible at all. I found out, that the docbook output was fine, when I replaced the German characters in the Nodes and section-names with @-codes like '@"a'. So I was pleased for a moment... until I saw, that this messed up the HTML-output again. :-( Another area, which is really problematic is the hyphanation. I found the command @hyphenation{} could help me in some cases. But this again breaks, when there are German characters in a word. Using "@-" throughout the text is not an option! Would it be at least possible to switch the hyphenation completely off? I think, that would be by far the best solution. -- AKFoerster From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jun 20 17:47:36 2009 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1MI8PQ-0007dQ-G5 for mharc-help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:47:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MI8PO-0007dF-84 for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:47:34 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MI8PJ-0007bN-Ji for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:47:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=57780 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MI8PJ-0007ay-Dy for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:47:29 -0400 Received: from server1.f7.net ([64.34.169.74]:54869 helo=f7.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MI8PJ-000454-1G for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:47:29 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org X-Envelope-To: help-texinfo@gnu.org Received: (from karl@localhost) by f7.net (8.11.7-20030920/8.11.7) id n5KLlRJ24623; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:47:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:47:27 -0500 Message-Id: <200906202147.n5KLlRJ24623@f7.net> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) To: list@akfoerster.de Subject: Re: [help-texinfo] problems with German characters In-Reply-To: <20090620121819.GA20989@castrophe.akfoerster.de> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) Cc: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:47:34 -0000 output the table of content in the sidebar was messed up. It replaced for example "ä" with "a". Doing things right in the bookmarks is very difficult, because it does not use the same encoding as the rest of the PDF. I don't envision any fix for this. I found out, that the docbook output was fine, when I replaced the German characters in the Nodes and section-names with @-codes like '@"a'. I'm surprised, but hey, if it works, great. German characters in the Nodes and section-names with @-codes like '@"a'. So I was pleased for a moment... until I saw, that this messed up the HTML-output again. :-( Try makeinfo --commands-in-node-names --html. I don't know whether it will work. Another area, which is really problematic is the hyphanation. BTW, with current texinfo.tex and a current TeX installation, it should read German patterns ("ngerman", to be specific). Would it be at least possible to switch the hyphenation completely off? @tex \global\hyphenpenalty=10000 @end tex Best, karl From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jun 21 08:24:10 2009 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1MIM5i-0001C0-Q4 for mharc-help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:24:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MIM5f-00018A-QV for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:24:07 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MIM5b-000141-87 for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:24:07 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=34479 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MIM5b-00013y-2r for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:24:03 -0400 Received: from mo-p00-ob.rzone.de ([81.169.146.160]:41586) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MIM5a-0004AT-Mm for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:24:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1245587040; l=2145; s=domk; d=akfoerster.de; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; bh=FGf0bHWxTMJPSPLuITqGiBhglPQ=; b=kv7vPQrc+q+NjYtqDYPEmZ2Dgm54g8gU9yGKAwHRrakD7o1KmA9ykLvQT4XRTLWN8Ib NhN9fhti14p2i5X8WRWIYyx3n6KGPPSqgS4E+5rc1sArP4nMWEg9z5PQscYEzP6LJ1QyH In9pi2M97TjFRCs4JF2rPWKiD8FUOCmMQeY= X-RZG-AUTH: :IW0Ne2CpcPkRKcNoBVPeC09YE+Mv+LyGT8dKEQRzHnMssggKYJeQr5Olix/emg== X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from castrophe.akfoerster.de (dslb-088-078-224-072.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.78.224.72]) by post.strato.de (mrclete mo13) (RZmta 18.42) with AES128-SHA encrypted ESMTP id y009a9l5LBqVdz ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:24:00 +0200 (MEST) Received: from listen by castrophe.akfoerster.de with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MIM6c-0006Zh-Bn; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:25:06 +0200 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:25:06 +0200 From: list@akfoerster.de To: Karl Berry Subject: Re: [help-texinfo] problems with German characters Message-ID: <20090621122506.GA5793@castrophe.akfoerster.de> Mail-Followup-To: Karl Berry , help-texinfo@gnu.org References: <20090620121819.GA20989@castrophe.akfoerster.de> <200906202147.n5KLlRJ24623@f7.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200906202147.n5KLlRJ24623@f7.net> X-PGP-Key: http://akfoerster.de/AKFoerster.key User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) Cc: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:24:08 -0000 Am Samstag, dem 20. Jun 2009 schrieb Karl Berry: > output the table of content in the sidebar was messed up. > It replaced for example "ä" with "a". > > Doing things right in the bookmarks is very difficult, because it does > not use the same encoding as the rest of the PDF. I don't envision any > fix for this. using iconv? If you really must use plain ascii, it would help, if it could be transcribed as follows: @"A=Ae, @"a=ae, @"O=Oe, @"o=oe, @"U=Ue, @"u=ue, @"s=ss That replacements are known to every German, although we don't like it. (note: historically the diaresis where little e's written above the vovels) > I found out, that the docbook output was fine, when I replaced the > German characters in the Nodes and section-names with @-codes like > '@"a'. > > I'm surprised, but hey, if it works, great. or not... the html output is more important to me. > German characters in the Nodes and section-names with @-codes like > '@"a'. So I was pleased for a moment... until I saw, that this messed > up the HTML-output again. :-( > > Try makeinfo --commands-in-node-names --html. I don't know whether it > will work. That doesn't help. It seems to be really broken in more than just one way. Not only the internal link-names are different, but even the printed output is garbled in some places. It sometimes uses for example "&Uuml;berblick" instead of "Überblick". > Another area, which is really problematic is the hyphanation. > > BTW, with current texinfo.tex and a current TeX installation, it should > read German patterns ("ngerman", to be specific). I already installed the latest texinfo.tex and txi-de.tex. But it is not really that much better. > Would it be at least possible to switch the hyphenation completely off? > > @tex > \global\hyphenpenalty=10000 > @end tex That is much better! Thanks for that tip. It would be nice, if you could make a Texinfo command for that. P.S.: I think I'm going to have a look at the source code of makeinfo, after the next release of my project and when I have time... no promise though. -- AKFoerster From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jun 21 17:28:24 2009 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1MIUaO-0001w1-FS for mharc-help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:28:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MIUaN-0001vw-9Z for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:28:23 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MIUaI-0001tf-DK for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:28:22 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=34092 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MIUaI-0001ta-A5 for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:28:18 -0400 Received: from server1.f7.net ([64.34.169.74]:53356 helo=f7.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MIUaH-0000N1-Vs for help-texinfo@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:28:18 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org X-Envelope-To: help-texinfo@gnu.org Received: (from karl@localhost) by f7.net (8.11.7-20030920/8.11.7) id n5LLSGR00808; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:28:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:28:16 -0500 Message-Id: <200906212128.n5LLSGR00808@f7.net> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) To: list@akfoerster.de Subject: Re: [help-texinfo] problems with German characters In-Reply-To: <20090621122506.GA5793@castrophe.akfoerster.de> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) Cc: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:28:23 -0000 I already installed the latest texinfo.tex and txi-de.tex. But it is not really that much better. You also have to have a tex engine with the german patterns loaded. TeX Live 2008 has it, don't know what version (if any) of MiKTeX. Earlier releases won't work. P.S.: I think I'm going to have a look at the source code of makeinfo, Don't waste your time. The C makeinfo will be replaced with the Perl texi2html in the next release. I don't know its behavior with UTF-8 and/or commands in node names; check out http://texi2html.nongnu.org if you like.