From albert.kinderman@csun.edu Fri Aug 3 19:05:05 2001 Received: from csun.edu ([130.166.1.51]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f73Evlf10654 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:57:47 +0400 (MSD) Received: from csun.edu (s097n152.csun.edu [130.166.97.152]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.4)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA2444234; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: vcmgt00b@csun.edu Message-ID: <3B6ABB24.ACA26850@csun.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:54:28 -0700 From: Albert Kinderman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Feature Request: @Graph dataformat {swapxandy } Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff: I would appreciate a dataformat option of {swapxandy } to @Graph I often make scatter diagrams (plots) from data that are imported from a spreadsheet. The data are exported from the spreadsheet to text format and then inserted into the Data portion of a Graph. Often I discover that I want to switch the x and y variables. Currently, I have to go back to the spreadsheet, switch the columns, re-export as text, and re-import the data into my lout document. [A personal problem: I have to dual boot between Windows for the spreadsheet and FreeBSD for lout and the rest of my computing.] The only other option is to cut and paste the first number for the second in every row (which could be over 100 rows). That is more painful for me than re-importing the data. I have looked at graphf and graphf.lpg where dataformat and its options are defined. I don't program in Postscript (or anything else for that matter!), so I am not prepared to try to define a new option myself. I realize it will be more difficult than xonly or yonly, since the issue is not just where to put the marks on the page, but computing the min, max, ticks, etc. for both axes after you have swapped x and y. My first thought is that all the xmin, xmax, etc, whether computed by default or specified by the user, should apply to the visual x axis, i.e., all x items would apply to the original y's (now the x's). My reasoning is that after I have done the swap in my mind, I am thinking about the new x's when I think about the ticks, etc. Thanks for considering my request to add this to the end of the list of things you might like to add to Lout. Thanks again for all you have done. We really appreciate all that Lout can do. Al -- Albert Kinderman Department of Management Science California State University, Northridge From thorsten.seitz@ngi.de Sat Aug 4 18:15:07 2001 Received: from sender.ngi.de (sender.ngi.de [212.79.47.18]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f74E9wf41034 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:09:58 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hobbes.localdomain (mrbg-3e365d18.pool.mediaWays.net [62.54.93.24]) by sender.ngi.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A6A96DE4 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from thorsten by hobbes.localdomain with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15T2Fc-0000Bt-00 for ; Sat, 04 Aug 2001 16:18:00 +0200 From: Thorsten Seitz Reply-To: thorsten.seitz@web.de Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:18:00 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: problem with merged index entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01080416180000.00686@hobbes> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: Thorsten Seitz Hi, I've got a problem with merged index entries: the merging simply does not happen. The following test file reproduces the problem (I'm using lout 3.24): @SysInclude { book } @Book // @Chapter @Title { Index-Test } @Begin test test @Index Test @NP test test @Index Test @End @Chapter The resulting index entry is just "Test, 1" instead of the expected "Test, 1, 2". Commenting out the first "test @Index Test" results in an index entry of "Test, 2", just as expected. The curious thing is that @Common, @Rump and @Meld do work as described with literals, but in the @Merge command (in @DoIndex in file dsf) the result of {x @Rump y} is always "", even though x seems to be "Test, 1" and y seems to be "Test, 2". {{Test, 1} @Rump {Test, 2}} and {{Test &"0.03fu" , 1} @Rump {Test &"0.03fu" , 2}} both give the expected result of "2". Is this a known bug or am I doing something wrong? Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks, Thorsten -- Thorsten Seitz thorsten.seitz@web.de From albert.kinderman@csun.edu Thu Aug 9 23:55:22 2001 Received: from csun.edu ([130.166.1.51]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f79Jn2f13532 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:49:02 +0400 (MSD) Received: from csun.edu (s097n152.csun.edu [130.166.97.152]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.4)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA5199872; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: vcmgt00b@csun.edu Message-ID: <3B72E8E5.EC0080E6@csun.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:47:49 -0700 From: Albert Kinderman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thorsten.seitz@web.de CC: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: Re: problem with merged index entries References: <01080416180000.00686@hobbes> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thorsten: I have done some experimenting and have no answer for you. However, I think this is a bug in 3.24 that may not have existed in earlier versions of lout. I tried your test and several variations of it. None produced the second index reference. I was puzzled, because I have a book that has multiple references in the index, so I know that it worked at one time (the book was probably produced with lout 3.17). Long story short: I went back and reran my book with lout 3.24 - the multiple references in the index were gone. I then looked more closely at the index produced by 3.17. It too had errors, but of a different nature. For example, if there were references on pages 5, 11, 29, 40, 44, and 49, the index produced error, 5 11, 29 40 44, 49 Note the missing commas. I first thought that perhaps the commas were missing within single chapters, but that is not the case. Although 5 and 11 are in Chapter 1, 29 is in Chapter 2, and 40, 44, and 49 are in Chapter 3. Perhaps Uwe or Jeff will have an answer after vacations are over. Al Thorsten Seitz wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got a problem with merged index entries: the merging simply does not > happen. > > The following test file reproduces the problem (I'm using lout 3.24): > > @SysInclude { book } > > @Book > // > @Chapter > @Title { Index-Test } > @Begin > test > test @Index Test > @NP > test > test @Index Test > @End @Chapter > > The resulting index entry is just "Test, 1" instead of the expected "Test, 1, > 2". > > Commenting out the first "test @Index Test" results in an index entry of > "Test, 2", just as expected. > > The curious thing is that @Common, @Rump and @Meld do work as described with > literals, but in the @Merge command (in @DoIndex in file dsf) the result of > {x @Rump y} is always "", even though x seems to be "Test, 1" and y seems to > be "Test, 2". {{Test, 1} @Rump {Test, 2}} and {{Test &"0.03fu" , 1} @Rump > {Test &"0.03fu" , 2}} both give the expected result of "2". > > Is this a known bug or am I doing something wrong? > > Any help is greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Thorsten > -- > Thorsten Seitz > thorsten.seitz@web.de -- Albert Kinderman Department of Management Science California State University, Northridge From albert.kinderman@csun.edu Thu Aug 16 18:40:42 2001 Received: from csun.edu (krusty.csun.edu [130.166.1.51]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7GEPnf31097 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:25:49 +0400 (MSD) Received: from csun.edu (s097n152.csun.edu [130.166.97.152]) by csun.edu (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.4)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA8220367; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: vcmgt00b@csun.edu Message-ID: <3B7BD7AA.167EB0FC@csun.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:24:42 -0700 From: Albert Kinderman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru CC: thorsten.seitz@web.de Subject: Re: problem with merged index entries References: <01080416180000.00686@hobbes> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made up a similar test to Thorsten's. When run on lout 3.21, the index contains two correct entries: first page, 1,2 last page, 2 When run on lout 3.24, the first entry contains only the reference to the first occurrence: first page, 1 last page, 2 Something changed between 3.21 and 3.24 to introduce a bug (unless the difference is in how lout compiles on different operating systems). @SysInclude { book } @Book @Title { A Reference Test} // @Chapter @Title {Testing References} @Begin This is the first page. first @Index {first page} @NP This is not the first page. first @Index {first page} @LP This is the last page. last @Index {last page} @End @Chapter Al Thorsten Seitz wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got a problem with merged index entries: the merging simply does not > happen. > > The following test file reproduces the problem (I'm using lout 3.24): > > @SysInclude { book } > > @Book > // > @Chapter > @Title { Index-Test } > @Begin > test > test @Index Test > @NP > test > test @Index Test > @End @Chapter > > The resulting index entry is just "Test, 1" instead of the expected "Test, 1, > 2". > > Commenting out the first "test @Index Test" results in an index entry of > "Test, 2", just as expected. > > The curious thing is that @Common, @Rump and @Meld do work as described with > literals, but in the @Merge command (in @DoIndex in file dsf) the result of > {x @Rump y} is always "", even though x seems to be "Test, 1" and y seems to > be "Test, 2". {{Test, 1} @Rump {Test, 2}} and {{Test &"0.03fu" , 1} @Rump > {Test &"0.03fu" , 2}} both give the expected result of "2". > > Is this a known bug or am I doing something wrong? > > Any help is greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Thorsten > -- > Thorsten Seitz > thorsten.seitz@web.de -- Albert Kinderman Department of Management Science California State University, Northridge From fyawitz@actcom.co.il Thu Aug 16 21:15:41 2001 Received: from lmail.actcom.co.il (IDENT:root@lmail.actcom.co.il [192.114.47.13]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7GHDxf36048 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:13:59 +0400 (MSD) Received: from p27.j1.actcom.co.il (p27.j1.actcom.co.il [192.115.22.64]) by lmail.actcom.co.il (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f7GHCYV11199 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:12:34 +0300 Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:21:41 +0300 (IDT) From: Efraim Yawitz X-Sender: aba@yawitz.org.il To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: changing def's Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi! The list seems to be very quiet lately. Is everyone on vacation? Does anyone know if there is any way to change a definition in one of the @Include files without changing the source? I know that if you write def @PageNum{...} you just get an error for redefining something, since that is how functional languages work, but is there any way around it? Thanks, Ephraim From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Thu Aug 16 21:57:13 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7GHvCf38208 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:57:12 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA18283 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:55:46 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:55:46 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: changing def's Message-ID: <20010816215546.C16752@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout Mailing List References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Efraim Yawitz" on Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:21:41 On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:21:41 +0300, Efraim Yawitz wrote: > Does anyone know if there is any way to change a definition in one of the > @Include files without changing the source? I know that if you write def > @PageNum{...} you just get an error for redefining something, since that > is how functional languages work, but is there any way around it? I added these two old postings http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/lout/essays/496.scoping.txt http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/lout/essays/636.scoping.txt to my essays page at http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/lout/essays/essays.html The second one is more pertinent to your question (and if it's an answer, then I guess it's a "no"). SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From jeff@cs.usyd.edu.au Fri Aug 17 02:15:41 2001 Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (daemon@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with SMTP id f7GM9Of46422 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:09:25 +0400 (MSD) Received: from mumps0.cs.usyd.edu.au. by staff.cs.usyd.edu.au.; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:08:03 +1000 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:07:56 +1000 From: Jeff Kingston Subject: Re: changing def's To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Message-Id: <997999682.925.449922997@cs.usyd.edu.au> References: X-FaceURL: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/faces/au/edu/usyd/cs/jeff/face.jpg Organization: Sydney University Computer Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:21:41 +0300 (IDT), Efraim Yawitz wrote: > > Hi! The list seems to be very quiet lately. Is everyone on vacation? I'm a slave in my current job; it's no vacation, believe me! > Does anyone know if there is any way to change a definition in one of the > @Include files without changing the source? I know that if you write def > @PageNum{...} you just get an error for redefining something, since that > is how functional languages work, but is there any way around it? > > Thanks, > > Ephraim No, there is nothing like inheritance and redefinition. The original source has to anticipate the need for changes by supplying a parameter. Jeff From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Sun Aug 19 04:15:47 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7J0BNf15463 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:11:23 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7J0A2B21401 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:10:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7J0A2q14372 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:10:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA00993 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:04:45 +0200 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:04:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Lout mailing list Subject: Parallel text on two pages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, is it possible to set text on two pages in parallel? This is intended to be used in texts in two different languages, where on one page is the text in one language and on the other side there is the related text in the other language. The paragraphs on both pages should be related in their positions, so that it is possible to use paragraphs of different length in both languages and the related text in the second language is positioned in relation to the according text of the first language. Is there a way to solve this problem in lout? Ciao, Oliver -- Obviously, because programming is a creative activity there is not going to be a set of rules which will always lead us mechanically to a solution to a problem. (Simon Thompson: Haskell - The Craft of Functional Programming) From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Sun Aug 19 06:15:49 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7J2BOf17770 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:11:24 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7J2A4B24101 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:10:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7J2A4o19975 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:10:04 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA01366 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:46:38 +0200 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:46:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Lout mailing list Subject: html-to-lout? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, are there converters to create lout-documents from html or are there other filters, which can convert to lout (e.g. rtf2lout etc.)? Ciao, Oliver From mxp@dynalabs.de Sun Aug 19 19:15:49 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7JF9Yf32636 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:09:34 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10664 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:08:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id RAA02354; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:08:06 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: html-to-lout? References: From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:07:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Oliver Bandel's message of "Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:46:37 +0200 (MET DST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 13 Oliver Bandel writes: > are there converters to create lout-documents from > html or are there other filters, which can convert > to lout (e.g. rtf2lout etc.)? There's xxx2lout , for example. If your HTML is well-formed, you might want to consider using XSLT--I've used it very successfully to convert DocBook XML to Lout. -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From radek@balga.cz Sun Aug 19 20:25:49 2001 Received: from fors.balga.cz (fors.balga.cz [193.165.212.138]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7JGPBf34831 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:25:11 +0400 (MSD) Received: from kvark.balga.cz (kvark.balga.cz [193.165.212.251]) by fors.balga.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5633AA09C for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:23:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from radek by kvark.balga.cz with local (Exim 3.31 #1 (Debian)) id 15YVLb-00043Y-00 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:22:47 +0200 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:22:32 +0200 To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: DocBook XML to Lout Message-ID: <20010819182231.T1014@kvark.balga.cz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i From: Radek Hnilica On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 05:07:38PM +0200, Michael Piotrowski wrote: > There's xxx2lout , for > example. If your HTML is well-formed, you might want to consider > using XSLT--I've used it very successfully to convert DocBook XML to > Lout. Please can you share your xsl for transforming DocBook XML to Lout. I begin using DocBook XML 4.1.2 for my documentation, but not resolve the printing side of that yet. -- Radek Hnilica will be in near future http://www.balga.cz/hnilica will be http://www.hnilica.cz/ in near future =========================== No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back. Turkish proverb From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Tue Aug 21 02:15:52 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7KM6Tf81145 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:06:30 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KM52P03743 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:05:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7KM52326618 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:05:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01423 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:02:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:02:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Lout mailing list Subject: A meter/measure-paper Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I want to create a paper with lines for measures/meters. I want to use it as a helping tool in writing dance-notations. It should be possible to give the numers of measures and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). I want the measures in thicker lines and the meter in thinner lines. If the measures and meters are numerized, it would be good. 4 ================================== (4)---------------------------------- (3)---------------------------------- (2)---------------------------------- 3 ================================== (4)---------------------------------- (3)---------------------------------- (2)---------------------------------- 2 ================================== (4)---------------------------------- (3)---------------------------------- (2)---------------------------------- 1 ================================== Example with 4 measures of 4/4-meter. The numbers in parantheses should be written small, and maybe italic, but that is not my main problem. The main problem is: How can I create such lines easy with lout? Graphical loops... I'm not very experienced with lout. Any hint would be a good help. ThanX In Advance, Oliver From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Tue Aug 21 05:38:05 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7L1c1f85746 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:38:01 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA23576 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:36:29 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:36:29 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper Message-ID: <20010821053629.A22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 00:02:20 On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 00:02:20 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > It should be possible to give the numers of measures > and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). Well, this measures and meters don't make sense to me ;) so I don't know which params are which, but I hope my example will help you with the basic idea. import @BasicSetup # for @FullWidthRule def @NLines right n { def @DoLines right i { @OneCol { { 0.8f Slope } @Font { ({n @Minus i @Plus 1}) } ^|1f @FullWidthRule } /1v i @Case { n @Yield @Null else @Yield @DoLines @Next i } } @DoLines 1 } Of course in real definition for the notation you'll need to make line widths and number formats into paramters and you'll have two nested loops for measures and meter and you might want to use a symbol for line drawing that uses different alignemnt etc, etc, etc. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Tue Aug 21 06:38:29 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7L2cPf87255 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:38:25 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id GAA23633 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:36:52 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:36:52 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages Message-ID: <20010821063652.B22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 02:04:43 On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 02:04:43 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > is it possible to set text on two pages in parallel? For two pages, i.e. a "spread" the problem is hard to solve, since the spread is just two unrelated pages. In other words, Lout doesn't know that these two pages will eb aligned horizontally in the final book. For two columns an over-simplistic approach is: def @EnPlace { @Galley } def @DePlace { @Galley } def @En into { @EnPlace && preceding } right @Body { @Body } def @De into { @DePlace && preceding } right @Body { @Body } def @Bilingual { 3i @Wide @EnPlace ||1i 3i @Wide @DePlace @NotRevealed // @Bilingual } With usage like: @Bilingual // @En { ... } // @De { ... } // @En { ... } // @De { ... } (in real package you would take care of hiding syntactic warts like // with a macro etc.) The problem with this is that paragraphs can't flow into the next page, since the way 3i @Wide @EnPlace ||1i 3i @Wide @DePlace are concatenated prevents it. I'm not sure if it's possible to overcome this. Basicly it requires a way to preserve horiziontal alignment across galleys so that it's possible to "synchronize" two columns. Lout can do this for vertical direction (algined displays is an example), but I'm not sure you can do this for horizonal direction. May you can use another clever trick, I don't know. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Tue Aug 21 17:08:00 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LD7wf04723 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:07:58 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA24209 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:06:25 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:06:25 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages Message-ID: <20010821170625.A24127@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <20010821063652.B22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <20010821063652.B22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru>; from "Valeriy E. Ushakov" on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 06:36:52 Well, I just thought it's a good example to show @NotRevealed in action because of the regular and straightforward pattern this example exhibits. On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 06:36:52 +0400, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > def @Bilingual > { > 3i @Wide @EnPlace ||1i 3i @Wide @DePlace @NotRevealed > // @Bilingual > } Let's consider this definition but with @NotRevealed omitted. What happens when Lout encounters: @Bilingual // @En { ... } // @De { ... } When Lout encounters @Bilingual it just lazily leaves it unexpanded. Then when it hits @En it starts a search for @EnPlace and it expands @Bilingual one time to get (omitting gaps etc): @EnPlace || @DePlace // @Bilingual # <- @DePlace is visible Now when Lout hits @De it will search for @DePlace and it will find it in the yet unexpanded @Bilingual! So the result will look like en en en en en en en en en en en en de de de de de de de de de de de de That's where @NotRevealed comes to rescue. With @NotRevealed in place @EnPlace || @DePlace // @Bilingual # <- @DePlace is not wisible the @DePlace in the unexpanded @Bilingual is, well, not revealed - so when Lout searches for a preceding @DePlace for @De it won't consider the unexpanded @Bilingual and @De will be sent to the first @DePlace producing the desired result. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Wed Aug 22 01:05:58 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LL1Rf19194; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:01:27 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7LL02I19100; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:00:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7LL02o08561; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:00:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01063; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:45:10 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:45:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" cc: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper In-Reply-To: <20010821053629.A22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 00:02:20 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > It should be possible to give the numers of measures > > and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). > > Well, this measures and meters don't make sense to me ;) Hey, that were different meters. A waltz is in 3/4, most popular music is in 4/4, jazz comes in these two but also in 6/8, 5/4, and so on... > so I don't > know which params are which, but I hope my example will help you with > the basic idea. Ok, I will try it with your examples. Ciao, Oliver From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Wed Aug 22 01:05:58 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LL1Rf19195; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:01:27 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7LL01I19096; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:00:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7LL01F08543; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:00:01 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01056; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:42:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:42:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" cc: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages In-Reply-To: <20010821063652.B22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 02:04:43 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > is it possible to set text on two pages in parallel? > > For two pages, i.e. a "spread" the problem is hard to solve, since the > spread is just two unrelated pages. In other words, Lout doesn't know > that these two pages will eb aligned horizontally in the final book. Oh, I thought, Lout does not know "pages". So I thought, it should be possible to relate two boxes with vertical distance, before the text will be put to the different pages....? Hmhhh. This seems to be a hard problem at all, because the problem - discussed in the german TeX-Mailinglist some days ago - has yielded a lot of questionmarks in the faces of the people there too... Ciao, Oliver From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Wed Aug 22 01:58:38 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LLwPf22036 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:58:25 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA24987 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:56:51 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:56:50 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper Message-ID: <20010822015650.A24980@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <20010821053629.A22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 17:45:09 On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 17:45:09 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > It should be possible to give the numers of measures > > > and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). > > > > Well, this measures and meters don't make sense to me ;) > > Hey, that were different meters. > > A waltz is in 3/4, most popular music is in 4/4, > jazz comes in these two but also in 6/8, 5/4, and so on... Mmm, I have some vague idea about this music thing :), I'm just not sure how this is intended to be visualized - I'm extremely bad at visual comprehension in general (e.g., my copy of The MetaFont Book was printed from the TeX source and lacks any pictures, not that it bothers me :). And you've chosen a "symmetric" example (4 of 4/4), so I was unable to guess ;). SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Wed Aug 22 02:17:56 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LMHtf22727 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:17:55 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id CAA25021 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:16:22 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:16:21 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages Message-ID: <20010822021621.B24980@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <20010821063652.B22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 17:42:48 On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 17:42:48 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 02:04:43 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > > > is it possible to set text on two pages in parallel? > > > > For two pages, i.e. a "spread" the problem is hard to solve, since the > > spread is just two unrelated pages. In other words, Lout doesn't know > > that these two pages will eb aligned horizontally in the final book. > > Oh, I thought, Lout does not know "pages". It really depends on the value of "knows". Lout doesn't have a *concept* of a page - it just replace top-level // operators with "showpage" plus some DSC goo. So the problem here is that you want a horizontal alignment between objects concatenated with // (aka pages). It *might* be possible to cheat and, say, print text 90 rotated degrees on a landscape pages so that the alignment is vertical, or printing spreads at once on A paper, or some other clever hack. But that's gonna be hard if at all possible. > So I thought, it should be possible to relate two boxes > with vertical distance, before the text will be put to > the different pages....? The question is "vertical distance from what?" The example I posted (btw, it works) relies on Lout alignment rules, but doing alignment across pages is a very tricky thing. > This seems to be a hard problem at all, because the problem - > discussed in the german TeX-Mailinglist some days ago - has yielded > a lot of questionmarks in the faces of the people there too... I think I own only three books printed like that: Revised report on Algol 68 (english/russian) - the only one aligned across pages - and Kalevala (finnish/russian) and 4 Gospels (old church slavonic/russian) - aligned across two columns on a page. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Wed Aug 22 03:05:57 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LMuQf23934; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:56:26 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7LMt1I25403; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:55:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7LMt1Y15594; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:55:01 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA00770; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:34:39 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:34:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" cc: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper In-Reply-To: <20010822015650.A24980@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 17:45:09 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > > > It should be possible to give the numers of measures > > > > and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). > > > > > > Well, this measures and meters don't make sense to me ;) > > > > Hey, that were different meters. > > > > A waltz is in 3/4, most popular music is in 4/4, > > jazz comes in these two but also in 6/8, 5/4, and so on... > > Mmm, I have some vague idea about this music thing :), I'm just not > sure how this is intended to be visualized - I'm extremely bad at > visual comprehension in general (e.g., my copy of The MetaFont Book > was printed from the TeX source and lacks any pictures, not that it > bothers me :). And you've chosen a "symmetric" example (4 of 4/4), so > I was unable to guess ;). I don't know your kind of humor, but I think, you are Mr. Funny. ;-) And it sounds really ironic.... MetaFont-Book without any Pictures? Ok, man, characters/letters are a kind of a picture too, so you are writing texts without letters? Hmhhh.... ...if it was not all a joke, what you wrote above, and if you may want to know, how daces can be visualized, then the keywords for that are: - laban-notation (very detailed and complex, but for all kinds of _movement_ - any kind of dance and not only dance) - motif-notation (a more practical version of laban-notation, with a lot of defaults) - kahn-notation (specialized tap-dance-notation) I want to combine motif-/laban-notation and kahn-notation and add conventional muscial-staffs (@Rotate 90d {staff}). Ciao, Oliver From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Wed Aug 22 03:05:57 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7LMuQf23935; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:56:26 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7LMt2I25407; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:55:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7LMt1915612; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:55:01 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA00832; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:52:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:52:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" cc: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages In-Reply-To: <20010822021621.B24980@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: [...] > I think I own only three books printed like that: Revised report on > Algol 68 (english/russian) - the only one aligned across pages - and > Kalevala (finnish/russian) and 4 Gospels (old church slavonic/russian) > - aligned across two columns on a page. column-alignment in (La)TeX would be answered with parallel.sty. But across-pages-alignment seems to be much harder. But isn't it a recursive problem? If these are columns or pages doesn't matter, if they would be handled in the same manner - each with some special way of processing (can we call it methods?!). And when we are at that point, we could think about section- alignment, or chapter-alignment, or whole-text-alignment (when we can put pages into pages, we should be able to align complete-texts with complete-texts...). And we can go further with this... If we go in the other direction and thgrow away current Lout-layout-algorithms, we do not only see words as objects, we can see characters as objects -> and then can use the layouting algorithms character-wise, not only word-wise. (Adding individual spacing (\kern in TeX) would produce TeX-like typography-results). This would be nearly perfect: alignment from any page to any other page or any paragraph to any other paragraph or pages and paragraphs or complete-texts and individual letters or ... ... ... ... -> No problem to have @Language de {"Registerhaltigkeit"}. -> No problem to have the cross-pages alignment. -> No problem to have any other layout problem from the software itself -> have a lot more problems in finding the right rules, because the focus is not, how to get the program acchieving the known rules, but rather to find the coorect rules, the syntax and grammar of good/practical typography... Ciao, Oliver From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Wed Aug 22 05:55:56 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7M1pff28147 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:51:41 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA25244 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:50:09 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:50:08 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper Message-ID: <20010822055008.B25175@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <20010822015650.A24980@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 00:34:39 On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 00:34:39 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > Mmm, I have some vague idea about this music thing :), I'm just not > > sure how this is intended to be visualized - I'm extremely bad at > > visual comprehension in general (e.g., my copy of The MetaFont Book > > was printed from the TeX source and lacks any pictures, not that it > > bothers me :). And you've chosen a "symmetric" example (4 of 4/4), so > > I was unable to guess ;). > > I don't know your kind of humor, but I think, you are Mr. Funny. ;-) While that paragraph carries a touch of humor, I'm mostly serious about that - I'm just not a "visual" type of person. > And it sounds really ironic.... MetaFont-Book without any > Pictures? Absolutely. > Ok, man, characters/letters are a kind of a picture too, so you are > writing texts without letters? Letter are mostly immaterial. Humans don't read letters, they visually parse chunks of text - words, phrases and with special training even lines at a time. > ...if it was not all a joke, what you wrote above, and if you may > want to know, how daces can be visualized, then the keywords for > that are: Oh my! I took a look. Now I know where Hollywood artists borrows the graphics for inscriptions on alien spacecrafts. ;) SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From rjhare@holyrood.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 22 12:06:09 2001 Received: from holyrood.ed.ac.uk (holyrood.ed.ac.uk [129.215.16.14]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7M80Gf35676; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:00:16 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from rjhare@localhost) by holyrood.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15232; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:58:49 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200108220758.IAA15232@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:58:49 BST From: rjhare@ed.ac.uk Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages To: Oliver Bandel cc: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" , Lout mailing list In-reply-to: Your message > But across-pages-alignment seems to be much harder. I'm not really a louter, but I read this list with interest. Dare I suggest a slightly different approach to the solution of this problem? Create *two* books with the text of language A on even pages in the first and the text of language B on odd pages in the second. All other pages are blank. I think lout can do the blank pages? Then simply collate the even pages of the first book and the odd pages of the second book and bingo, you have your parallel-text! RH From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Wed Aug 22 15:55:58 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7MBlEf44979 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:47:14 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA25591 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:45:40 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:45:40 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages Message-ID: <20010822154540.B25209@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <200108220758.IAA15232@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <200108220758.IAA15232@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>; from "rjhare@ed.ac.uk" on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 08:58:49 On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 08:58:49 +0100, rjhare@ed.ac.uk wrote: > Then simply collate the even pages of the first book and the odd pages of > the second book and bingo, you have your parallel-text! But you miss the point, the two texts need to be *aligned*. E.g. a German paragrpah will typically be longer than its English counterpart, so after just a few "free-flow" pages the two texts will diverge dramatically layout-wise. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From mxp@dynalabs.de Thu Aug 23 00:55:58 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7MKrlf62852 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:53:47 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15428 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:52:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id WAA02377; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:52:07 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: DocBook XML to Lout References: <20010819182231.T1014@kvark.balga.cz> From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:51:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010819182231.T1014@kvark.balga.cz> (Radek Hnilica's message of "Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:22:32 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 19 Radek Hnilica writes: > On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 05:07:38PM +0200, Michael Piotrowski wrote: > >> There's xxx2lout , for >> example. If your HTML is well-formed, you might want to consider >> using XSLT--I've used it very successfully to convert DocBook XML to >> Lout. > > Please can you share your xsl for transforming DocBook XML to Lout. > I begin using DocBook XML 4.1.2 for my documentation, but not resolve > the printing side of that yet. My actual stylesheet is still very rough, and probably hard to understand. I'll put together a minimal example, and post it here, but it'll take a few more days, I guess. -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Thu Aug 23 01:16:03 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7ML6Vf63535; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:06:31 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7ML54t08952; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:05:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7ML54O25972; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:05:04 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01179; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:12:30 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:12:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: rjhare@ed.ac.uk cc: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" , Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Parallel text on two pages In-Reply-To: <200108220758.IAA15232@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On 22 Aug 2001 rjhare@ed.ac.uk wrote: > > But across-pages-alignment seems to be much harder. > > I'm not really a louter, but I read this list with interest. > > Dare I suggest a slightly different approach to the solution of this > problem? > > Create *two* books with the text of language A on even pages in the first > and the text of language B on odd pages in the second. All other pages > are blank. I think lout can do the blank pages? > > Then simply collate the even pages of the first book and the odd pages of > the second book and bingo, you have your parallel-text! No, the problem is, that languages do not use the same amount of words for the same contents of the text. So the paragraphs should be related, so that the reader has all related text in a good readble way. If the paragraphs are not of same length, this could confude the reader, even if pages are related (and they are only at related at begin of the pages.) Ciao, Oliver From mxp@dynalabs.de Thu Aug 23 01:45:58 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7MLakf65204 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:36:46 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06173 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:35:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id XAA02413; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:35:18 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: DocBook XML to Lout References: <20010819182231.T1014@kvark.balga.cz> From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:31:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Michael Piotrowski's message of "Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:51:24 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 114 Ok, here's a minimal XSLT stylesheet to convert a DocBook XML article into a Lout report: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @SysInclude {report} @Report @InitialSpace {tex} @Title {} @Author { } @Abstract {} // @Section @Title {} @Begin @End @Section @LP @PP ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Only a _very_ limited number of elements are considered, but it would be sufficient for converting an XML document like this one: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report title Michael Piotrowski This is the executive summary. General Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ One does need a little preprocessing, though, to escape the Lout special characters: " # & / @ \ ^ { | } ~ There are several ways to do this. If there's some interest, I'm willing to expand on this, but right now it's getting late... -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Fri Aug 24 05:15:04 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7O1Dvf13868 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:13:57 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA28360 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:12:21 +0400 (MSD) Resent-Message-Id: <200108240112.FAA28360@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Received: from flux.ptc.spbu.ru (flux.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.195]) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28356 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:04:26 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from list@localhost) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) id f7O161h13744 for uwe@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:06:01 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:06:01 +0400 (MSD) X-From_: mghsm@sion.com Fri Aug 24 05:06:01 2001 Received: from smtp.sion.com (smtp.sion.com [200.69.32.234]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7O0waf13642 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:58:37 +0400 (MSD) Received: from pti159.sion.net (pti159.sion.net [200.69.37.159]) by smtp.sion.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7O0sXs28795 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:54:34 -0300 Old-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:57:19 -0300 From: Marcelo Huerta X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53d) Reply-To: Marcelo Huerta Organization: KilroySoft X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> To: Lout mailing list Subject: Caret over consonant letters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: lout Resent-From: uwe@ptc.spbu.ru Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:12:21 +0400 Resent-To: Lout Mailing List Greetings, I would like to know what would be your suggestions about the easiest way of adding a caret over several letters (cC, gG, hH, jJ, sS) and a caron over the u and U, to get the additional letters Esperanto uses. Thank you in advance for any clues on that... -- o-=< Marcelo >=-o bicho boleta. Bicho bolita mal estacionado. From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Fri Aug 24 05:19:24 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7O1JKf14068 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:19:20 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA28370 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:17:44 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:17:44 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Caret over consonant letters Message-ID: <20010824051744.B26905@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar>; from "Marcelo Huerta" on Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 05:06:01 On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 05:06:01 +0400, Marcelo Huerta wrote: > I would like to know what would be your suggestions about the > easiest way of adding a caret over several letters (cC, gG, hH, jJ, > sS) and a caron over the u and U, to get the additional letters > Esperanto uses. Input Esperanto in whatever 8859 standard supports it and use the extra metrics feature to compose missing glyphs. Look at "plus" files in fonts for examples for Czech. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From mghsm@sion.com Fri Aug 24 09:06:01 2001 Received: from smtp.sion.com (smtp.sion.com [200.69.32.234]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7O55ff18900 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:05:42 +0400 (MSD) Received: from pti129.sion.net (pti129.sion.net [200.69.37.129]) by smtp.sion.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7O51hs03229 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:01:43 -0300 Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:04:28 -0300 From: Marcelo Huerta X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53d) Reply-To: Marcelo Huerta Organization: KilroySoft X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8019284220.20010824020428@uol.com.ar> To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re[2]: Caret over consonant letters In-Reply-To: <20010824051744.B26905@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> References: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> <20010824051744.B26905@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Input Esperanto in whatever 8859 standard supports it and use the extra > metrics feature to compose missing glyphs. Look at "plus" files in fonts for > examples for Czech. Thanks, helpful enough to begin. However, a doubt (maybe silly for experts, but I'm no fonts cognoscenti: Is this enough to ensure that the new glyphs will be printed? If it's not, what should I do to be able to print those new glyphs? -- o-=< Marcelo >=-o abajo. Abeja deprimida, o abeja con el síndrome de Down. From kahl@heraklit.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de Fri Aug 24 13:56:02 2001 Received: from gatesrv.RZ.UniBw-Muenchen.de (gatesrv.RZ.UniBw-Muenchen.de [137.193.11.27]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7O9tqf29756 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:55:52 +0400 (MSD) Received: from demokrit.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de (demokrit.Informatik.UniBw-Muenchen.de [137.193.60.65]) by gatesrv.RZ.UniBw-Muenchen.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f7O9qa921760 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:52:47 +0200 (MEST) Received: (qmail 9973 invoked by uid 210); 24 Aug 2001 09:52:34 -0000 Date: 24 Aug 2001 09:52:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20010824095234.9972.qmail@demokrit.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de> From: kahl@heraklit.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de To: mghsm@sion.com CC: lout@ptc.spbu.ru In-reply-to: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> (message from Marcelo Huerta on Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:06:01 +0400 (MSD)) Subject: Re: Caret over consonant letters References: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> Marcelo Huerta wrote: > I would like to know what would be your suggestions about the easiest way of > adding a caret over several letters (cC, gG, hH, jJ, sS) and a caron over the > u and U, to get the additional letters Esperanto uses. I used the following in a Latin1 context: {c |0.06fo @Char caron} For capitals, you probably need to add @VShift, perhaps along the lines of: {U |0.06fo {{0.9f} @VShift @Char caron}} Wolfram From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Fri Aug 24 17:40:07 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7ODe0f40535 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:40:00 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA29020 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:38:23 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:38:22 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: Caret over consonant letters Message-ID: <20010824173822.C26905@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> <20010824095234.9972.qmail@demokrit.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de> <1564452052.20010823215719@uol.com.ar> <20010824051744.B26905@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> <8019284220.20010824020428@uol.com.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <8019284220.20010824020428@uol.com.ar>; from "Marcelo Huerta" on Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 02:04:28 On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 02:04:28 -0300, Marcelo Huerta wrote: > Thanks, helpful enough to begin. However, a doubt (maybe silly for > experts, but I'm no fonts cognoscenti: Is this enough to ensure that > the new glyphs will be printed? If it's not, what should I do to be > able to print those new glyphs? Well, it obviously works for Czech ;) Check list archives for the discussion of composite glyphs for more details. Basicly they are not new glyphs, rather lout uses existing base letter and existing diacritic mark and impose them to obtain a letter with diacritic that doesn't have a precomposed glyph in the font. Thus you can use just standard Adobe fonts. Of course you can also use fonts that have all the precomposed glyphs. Pros and cons were already discussed to death. On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:52:34 -0000, Wolfram Kahl wrote: > I used the following in a Latin1 context: > > {c |0.06fo @Char caron} > > For capitals, you probably need to add @VShift, perhaps along the lines of: > > {U |0.06fo {{0.9f} @VShift @Char caron}} And the glyph composition feature basicly does just that only at the very low level. The obvious benefit is that with lout doing the composition at the backend level hyphenation is possible, because at upper levels Lout deals with words not complex objects. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From Samuel.Lacas@trusted-logic.fr Tue Aug 28 11:26:13 2001 Received: from crozet.trusted-logic.fr (mailhost.trusted-logic.fr [194.250.150.5]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7S7KVf00699 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:20:32 +0400 (MSD) Received: from ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (ouessant.trusted-logic.fr [192.168.1.201]) by crozet.trusted-logic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DC943D for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:18:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from lacas@localhost) by ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01469 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:18:52 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:18:52 +0200 From: Samuel Lacas To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: Vim macros for Lout Message-ID: <20010828091852.A1162@ouessant.trusted-logic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3us X-Operating-System: Linux ouessant.trusted-logic.fr 2.2.19 Hi, I've just written a bundle of Vim macros to ease Lout editing, but I'm not sure I can post them directly to the list (11Ko for 365 lines). I do not have a web/ftp page, and won't have one anyway. If anyone is interested, or if someone (Lout page ?) wants to host this, please contact me (or post to the list). Sincerely, sL From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Tue Aug 28 20:36:14 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7SGQbf28680 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:26:37 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7SGP2D07083 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:25:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7SGP2X06246 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:25:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA00160 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:22:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:22:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Lout mailing list Subject: @VerbatimInput Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I into the Lout-documentation for the verbatim-possibilities. I found some, but nothing like a \verbatiminput{filename} like in the verbatim.sty for LaTeX. I think a @VerbatimInput{ filename } would be a very useful command. I would prefer Lout to print ASCII-textfiles over a2ps, if it is easy to use. What do you think? Ciao, Oliver From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Tue Aug 28 21:16:17 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7SH6Zf29998; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:06:35 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7SH51D08916; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:05:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7SH51V09155; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:05:01 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA01053; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:02:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:02:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" cc: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper In-Reply-To: <20010821053629.A22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 00:02:20 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > > > It should be possible to give the numers of measures > > and the meter (4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 6/8, 13/11 etc.). > > Well, this measures and meters don't make sense to me ;) so I don't > know which params are which, but I hope my example will help you with > the basic idea. > > import @BasicSetup # for @FullWidthRule > def @NLines > right n > { > def @DoLines > right i > { [...] Ok, thanks for that little script. Today I had a little time and tried it. Between the lowest line (the one with number 1) and the line (2) there is a greater space than between the other lines. I hope I can find the problem, but if you see it, you may help me again? Ciao, Oliver From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Wed Aug 29 02:25:10 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7SMP5f38756 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:25:05 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id CAA03881 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:23:20 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:23:20 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: Lout mailing list Subject: Re: A meter/measure-paper Message-ID: <20010829022320.A3683@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Lout mailing list References: <20010821053629.A22472@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: ; from "Oliver Bandel" on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 19:02:40 On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 19:02:40 +0200, Oliver Bandel wrote: > Between the lowest line (the one with number 1) and the line (2) > there is a greater space than between the other lines. I hope I can > find the problem, but if you see it, you may help me again? Change the gap mode in the /1v above ('e' edge-to-edge be default) to be something not dependent on the hight of the objects, like /1.5vo? SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen From Samuel.Lacas@trusted-logic.fr Wed Aug 29 12:26:17 2001 Received: from crozet.trusted-logic.fr (mailhost.trusted-logic.fr [194.250.150.5]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7T8Mpf52023 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:22:51 +0400 (MSD) Received: from ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (ouessant.trusted-logic.fr [192.168.1.201]) by crozet.trusted-logic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A899050E for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:21:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from lacas@localhost) by ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20558 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:21:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:21:10 +0200 From: Samuel Lacas To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: @VerbatimInput hack Message-ID: <20010829102110.A19445@ouessant.trusted-logic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3us X-Operating-System: Linux ouessant.trusted-logic.fr 2.2.19 Hi, The following seems to work for me to include a verbatim file, but you need to have the "awk" program available, and run lout in "unsafe mode" (lout -U). @SysInclude { doc } #============================================ def @VerbatimInput right x { def @Filter { awk "\'BEGIN { print \"@RawVerbatim {\";} { print $0;} END { print \"}\";}\'" @FilterIn > @FilterOut } lines @Break x } # @VerbatimInput @Doc @Text @Begin @VerbatimInput { @Include { "toto" } } @End @Text #============== Fin du fichier ============== Note that I fell this is quite ugly, and may be lout experts on the list will make up a better way to do that. my 2 cents, sL From jeff@cs.usyd.edu.au Thu Aug 30 05:46:18 2001 Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au ([129.78.8.1]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with SMTP id f7U1fJf01474 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:41:21 +0400 (MSD) Received: from mumps2.cs.usyd.edu.au. by staff.cs.usyd.edu.au.; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:39:35 +1000 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:39:24 +1000 From: Jeff Kingston Subject: Re: @VerbatimInput hack To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Message-Id: <999135574.381.137789175@cs.usyd.edu.au> References: <20010829102110.A19445@ouessant.trusted-logic.fr> X-FaceURL: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/faces/au/edu/usyd/cs/jeff/face.jpg Organization: Sydney University Computer Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I understand the problem being solved correctly, the solution is just @Verbatim { @Include { filename } } because @Verbatim is really "verbatim except when you see @Include". Jeff From Samuel.Lacas@trusted-logic.fr Thu Aug 30 11:26:18 2001 Received: from crozet.trusted-logic.fr (mailhost.trusted-logic.fr [194.250.150.5]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7U7Gsf13393 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:16:54 +0400 (MSD) Received: from ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (ouessant.trusted-logic.fr [192.168.1.201]) by crozet.trusted-logic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFD843D for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:15:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from lacas@localhost) by ouessant.trusted-logic.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07973 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:15:17 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:15:17 +0200 From: Samuel Lacas To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: Re: @VerbatimInput hack Message-ID: <20010830091517.A7668@ouessant.trusted-logic.fr> References: <20010829102110.A19445@ouessant.trusted-logic.fr> <999135574.381.137789175@cs.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3us In-Reply-To: <999135574.381.137789175@cs.usyd.edu.au> X-Operating-System: Linux ouessant.trusted-logic.fr 2.2.19 Jeff Kingston a écrit 0.2K le Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 11:39:24AM +1000: # If I understand the problem being solved correctly, the solution # is just # # @Verbatim { # @Include { filename } # } # # because @Verbatim is really "verbatim except when you see @Include". # # Jeff Oh :) It's even written in the User's guide (though not in the Expert, at least in mine). Excuse me for the noise. sL From uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru Thu Aug 30 19:55:18 2001 Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7UFqxf31739 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:52:59 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA06356 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:51:11 +0400 (MSD) Resent-Message-Id: <200108301551.TAA06356@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Received: from flux.ptc.spbu.ru (flux.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.195]) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06344 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:44:33 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from list@localhost) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) id f7UFkKh31570 for uwe@ptc.spbu.ru; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:46:20 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:46:20 +0400 (MSD) X-From_: piccininifrancesca@hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 19:46:19 2001 Received: from hotmail.com (f67.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.67]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7UFdxf31380 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:39:59 +0400 (MSD) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:38:16 -0700 Received: from 217.57.201.177 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:38:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.57.201.177] From: "francesca piccinini" To: lout-request@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: LOUT Old-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:38:15 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2001 15:38:16.0002 (UTC) FILETIME=[C933B220:01C13169] X-Diagnostic: Unprocessed X-Envelope-To: lout-request Resent-From: uwe@ptc.spbu.ru Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:51:10 +0400 Resent-To: Lout Mailing List Hello i'am lout user... I have a problem using @HeaderRow in the Tbl Object. When the number of columns is > 3 and the pages of the report is > 2 the field of header shift on the left.. can you help me !!! where is the mistake ??? thanks in advance and sorry for my english. _________________________________________________________________ Scarica GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer all'indirizzo http://explorer.msn.it/intl.asp From G.B.Stott@bolton.ac.uk Fri Aug 31 16:46:22 2001 Received: from basil.acs.bolton.ac.uk (basil.acs.bolton.ac.uk [193.63.48.5]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VCbLf67330 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:37:21 +0400 (MSD) Received: from batroost (193.63.49.22) by kryten.acs.bolton.ac.uk (MX V5.2 AnDq) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:35:40 +0100 Received: from gbs by batroost with local (MasqMail 0.1.8) id 15cnUe-084-00 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:33:52 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:33:51 +0100 From: Barrie Stott To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: extending Jeff's letter style Message-ID: <20010831133351.A476@batroost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i If I am writing to Joe Bloggs, I would like the header of all but the first page to have `To: Joe Bloggs' on the left and @PageNum centred. I'll not reproduce here my version of Jeff's file since, for a day and a half, it's been constantly changing as I tried to solve this problem. The only fixed change is that his parameter @To has become two, as below, so that I can extract the name from name+address. def @Letter named @ToName {} named @ToAddress {} Essentially, I think I need to have the effect of the following towards the end of my setup file (There would be @OddTop and @PageNum in there as well but that's detail.): @Use { @DocumentSetup @EvenTop { To: @ToName } } The problems I have are these: 1. @EvenTop is in scope within @DocumentSetup but @ToName is not. I have tried so many variations to get something in scope that I'm beginning to think that it cannot be done. Hence the question: Is there a way for me to get @ToName in scope for @DocumentSetup? 2. Even supposing that I could crack the previous problem, at the time @EvenTop is set by the above, @ToName has an empty value rather than `Joe Bloggs' so I wouldn't get what I wanted anyway. Any help would be much aprreciated. Barrie. From mxp@dynalabs.de Fri Aug 31 19:56:22 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VFoHf74060 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:50:17 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13491 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:48:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id RAA02220; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:48:28 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Sentence-end punctuation From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:46:45 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 19 Hi, I just noticed that for all languages except French, langdefs contains the same sentence-end definitions as for English. When using TeX-style spacing, this means that a larger space is automatically used after: . : ! ? .) ?) !) .' !' ?' However, is this behavior really appropriate for these languages? I'm only sure about German, and for German it should be the same as for French. What about the other languages supported by Lout? Since changing the language definitions on a per-user basis requires copying the setup file, I think it would be good if the defaults were correct. Greetings -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From woods@proven.weird.com Fri Aug 31 21:16:23 2001 Received: from most.weird.com (IDENT:jJYrsdyTEHb+VQn2iA/h/mFE6thcgAjnU1GC5UZzH8vApTsN8GSypiGNa6QYm4XvbRIzDf4rG94@most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VHE6f76931 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:14:07 +0400 (MSD) Received: from proven.weird.com([204.92.254.15]) (2414 bytes) by most.weird.com via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident <[zChUDUvGVsojtwKNxLw7RQnjju2k1qIUkKl2fFHp19dcFhKcPYDxUujuE8KP2k/LiCcwBEzuOj/SCCwrrhRCwQ==]> using rfc1413) id for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:12:17 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.115-Pre 2001-Aug-6 #1 built 2001-Aug-6) Received: by proven.weird.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0EB3E8; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:12:15 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: Michael Piotrowski Cc: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under Emacs 21.0.103.2 Reply-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru (Lout mailing List) Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada Message-Id: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:12:15 -0400 (EDT) [ On Friday, August 31, 2001 at 17:46:45 (+0200), Michael Piotrowski wrote: ] > Subject: Sentence-end punctuation > > I just noticed that for all languages except French, langdefs contains > the same sentence-end definitions as for English. When using > TeX-style spacing, this means that a larger space is automatically > used after: > > . : ! ? .) ?) !) .' !' ?' This is partially true for troff-style spacing too, at least if you follow the unwritten guideline that an end of line always follow a sentence ending in troff input. > However, is this behavior really appropriate for these languages? I'm > only sure about German, and for German it should be the same as for > French. What about the other languages supported by Lout? Since > changing the language definitions on a per-user basis requires copying > the setup file, I think it would be good if the defaults were correct. I didn't really think there was any difference between the "Romanesque" languages for the typeset _output_, but if you say so.... :-) In that vein though it's important to note that many guides to preparation of electronic manuscripts (at least all the ones I've ever read) have always recommended leaving two spaces after punctuation that ends sentences. -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Fri Aug 31 22:56:22 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VIpgf79762 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:51:42 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7VIo2N28689; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:50:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7VIo2L28545; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:50:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01574; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:31:12 +0200 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:31:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Jeff Kingston cc: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: Re: @VerbatimInput hack In-Reply-To: <999135574.381.137789175@cs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Jeff Kingston wrote: > If I understand the problem being solved correctly, the solution > is just > > @Verbatim { > @Include { filename } > } Really? > > because @Verbatim is really "verbatim except when you see @Include". i think you have understood the problem right. I want to include e.g. C-Files directly. But this does not work with lout 3.17: If the file is too long, the typesetting-process collapses and only the text before the vearbatim-include will be shown. All stuff from the verb-include will be discarded. Ciao, Oliver From g.salmeri@mclink.it Fri Aug 31 23:16:23 2001 Received: from mail.mclink.it (net128-053.mclink.it [195.110.128.53]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VJE3f80708 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:14:03 +0400 (MSD) Received: from o3d9y0 (net147-026.mclink.it [195.110.147.26]) by mail.mclink.it (8.11.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id f7VJCMO21091 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:12:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:14:38 +0200 From: Giovanni Salmeri To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <20010831210954.E0EB.G.SALMERI@mclink.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.00.07 On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:46:45 +0200 Michael Piotrowski wrote: > I just noticed that for all languages except French, langdefs contains > the same sentence-end definitions as for English. When using > TeX-style spacing, this means that a larger space is automatically > used after: > > . : ! ? .) ?) !) .' !' ?' > > However, is this behavior really appropriate for these languages? I'm > only sure about German, and for German it should be the same as for > French. Also for Italian, and, AFAIK, Spanish. I suspect that most languages do not use a larger space at the end of a sentence. By the way, here are some little corrections to do in standard.ld (the line commented out is the one which actually appears in the file): # Italian @Yield { Contenuto } Italian @Yield { Indice } # Italian @Yield { Elenco delle Figure } Italian @Yield { Elenco delle figure } # Italian @Yield { Elenco delle Tabelle } Italian @Yield { Elenco delle tabelle } # Italian @Yield { ?? } Italian @Yield { Abbreviazioni } # Italian @Yield { Lecture } Italian @Yield { Conferenza } # Italian @Yield { @Char ae } Italian @Yield { @Char ?? } # Italian @Yield { @Char AE } Italian @Yield { @Char ?? } # Italian @Yield { @ShortHour.@Minute } Italian @Yield { @ShortHour:@Minute } Greetings Giovanni Salmeri Piazza dell'Alberone 2 I-00181 Roma RM http://mondodomani.org/ From mxp@dynalabs.de Fri Aug 31 23:56:23 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VJsDf82480 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:54:13 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11595 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:52:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id VAA02391; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:52:32 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:51:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> (woods@weird.com's message of "Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:12:15 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 44 woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) writes: > [ On Friday, August 31, 2001 at 17:46:45 (+0200), Michael Piotrowski wrote: ] > > Subject: Sentence-end punctuation >> >> I just noticed that for all languages except French, langdefs contains >> the same sentence-end definitions as for English. When using >> TeX-style spacing, this means that a larger space is automatically >> used after: >> >> . : ! ? .) ?) !) .' !' ?' > > This is partially true for troff-style spacing too, at least if you > follow the unwritten guideline that an end of line always follow a > sentence ending in troff input. I mentioned TeX-style spacing because that's what I'm normally using, both for hand-written and generated Lout. >> However, is this behavior really appropriate for these languages? I'm >> only sure about German, and for German it should be the same as for >> French. What about the other languages supported by Lout? Since >> changing the language definitions on a per-user basis requires copying >> the setup file, I think it would be good if the defaults were correct. > > I didn't really think there was any difference between the "Romanesque" > languages for the typeset _output_, but if you say so.... :-) Well, there are many subtle differences in typesetting customs between the many languages that use the Latin alphabet, although, under the influence of American-written word processors, many of them will probably disappear. > In that vein though it's important to note that many guides to > preparation of electronic manuscripts (at least all the ones I've ever > read) have always recommended leaving two spaces after punctuation that > ends sentences. This is exactly my point: As far as I know, this usage is something very specific to the English language (or its American variant?). You wouldn't do this in German. -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From woods@proven.weird.com Sat Sep 1 00:46:23 2001 Received: from most.weird.com (IDENT:NR6sG+aPfWBidGTqwgcgKE03ZY9lgWOcXd0mXkc7hx8/8Gf9153PquN6fBL9pZYwG3r5KKqXGHM@most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VKk0f85603 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:46:01 +0400 (MSD) Received: from proven.weird.com([204.92.254.15]) (3173 bytes) by most.weird.com via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident <[9GBcA7EWeAyTsdhcasjkEOMBbHt45SFJH1QO0xhN+ALmlkdNXquCkEWx6Z8TqRrZDhLu2QWUgZH0FeqPbIPiaA==]> using rfc1413) id for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:44:19 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.115-Pre 2001-Aug-6 #1 built 2001-Aug-6) Received: by proven.weird.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 682C7E8; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:44:18 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: Michael Piotrowski Cc: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation In-Reply-To: References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under Emacs 21.0.103.2 Reply-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru (Lout mailing List) Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada Message-Id: <20010831204418.682C7E8@proven.weird.com> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:44:18 -0400 (EDT) [ On Friday, August 31, 2001 at 21:51:20 (+0200), Michael Piotrowski wrote: ] > Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation > > Well, there are many subtle differences in typesetting customs between > the many languages that use the Latin alphabet, although, under the > influence of American-written word processors, many of them will > probably disappear. Do you (or anyone else) have any (preferrably online) references to documentation describing such regional typesetting customs, and their history? > This is exactly my point: As far as I know, this usage is something > very specific to the English language (or its American variant?). You > wouldn't do this in German. My point was that regardless of what human language your document is written in, you should alwasy delineate sentences with double spaces when you're preparing an electronic manuscript in any markup "language", and the widely published guides I've read all say the same thing too. The same rules of thumb were strongly advised for typists in pre-computer days too. Typically even with text typeset and kerned with a variable-width font face there's more visible whitespace at the end of a sentence than there is between any two words (at least in an unjustified paragraph). This is true even in German and French magazines and books I've examined. However in a mono-spaced font face, such as you obviously get with almost any mechanical typewriter, and which many of us still prefer on a computer screen, the resulting wider space between sentences is extremely valuable for the human reader and makes the text flow to the eyes much better. These issues are independent of language -- all humans have very similar visual perception capabilities. Typsetting is very much about making text easy to read ("letter quality" and all that...). The additional space between sentences is as important as sentence structure is to the human language in question. -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird From behrends@cse.msu.edu Sat Sep 1 01:16:23 2001 Received: from sargasso.cse.msu.edu (sargasso.cse.msu.edu [35.9.20.10]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VL83f87038 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:08:08 +0400 (MSD) Received: from pacific.cse.msu.edu (pacific.cse.msu.edu [35.9.20.19]) by sargasso.cse.msu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f7VL6HX23953 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from behrends@localhost) by pacific.cse.msu.edu (8.11.6/8.8.8) id f7VL6HK11701 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:06:17 -0400 From: Reimer Behrends To: Lout mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation Message-ID: <20010831170617.A11642@cse.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Reimer Behrends , Lout mailing List References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com>; from woods@weird.com on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 01:12:15PM -0400 On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 01:12:15PM -0400, Greg A. Woods wrote: [...] > In that vein though it's important to note that many guides to > preparation of electronic manuscripts (at least all the ones I've ever > read) have always recommended leaving two spaces after punctuation that > ends sentences. This can become a somewhat religious topic, but modern typography demands a single space after punctuation, with hardly any exceptions. Quoth Robert Bringhurst, "The Elements of Typographic Style": "In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after each period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are /themselves/ punctuation. "The rule is usually altered, however, when setting classical Latin and Greek, romanized Sanskrit, phonetics or other kinds of texts in which sentences begin with lowercase letters. In the absence of a capital, a full /en space/ (M/2) between sentences will generally be welcome." Or from Sean Cavanaugh's Rules of Typography at: http://www.fontsite.com/Pages/RulesOfType/ROT0997.html I am usually using either /lout/ or /compress/ for spacing myself. Reimer Behrends From mxp@dynalabs.de Sat Sep 1 01:36:23 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VLTlf87897 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:29:47 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28459 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:28:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id XAA02451; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:28:06 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation References: <20010831210954.E0EB.G.SALMERI@mclink.it> From: Michael Piotrowski In-Reply-To: <20010831210954.E0EB.G.SALMERI@mclink.it> (Giovanni Salmeri's message of "Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:14:38 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:27:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 16 Giovanni Salmeri writes: > Also for Italian, and, AFAIK, Spanish. I suspect that most languages do > not use a larger space at the end of a sentence. That's what I suspect, too. In fact I'm not really sure if the larger sentence-end space is really a *typographical* convention, and not just a *typewriter* convention. Before posting the original message I checked the Chicago Manual of Style, but I couldn't find anything on that topic. But I'm careful about making statements on the typography of foreign languages (OTOH, "sbagliando s'impara" :-) -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From woods@proven.weird.com Sat Sep 1 02:06:23 2001 Received: from most.weird.com (IDENT:WzRBS7iWBJ36JNU2BuRYNdiS/UQwog8FGma6D0te8Tq5xASiQo9ubrOCjAprePh8i8cG+6u+NhU@most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VLurf89160 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:56:53 +0400 (MSD) Received: from proven.weird.com([204.92.254.15]) (1782 bytes) by most.weird.com via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident <[YR2SL4dzfmOhFMXRkNWRBPhgmv9tPcHwQBJy0W+psLjqkdlaMrY+KVhW20FHHN2sFhiTVMBELX6JwzOObPdaHw==]> using rfc1413) id for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:55:10 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.115-Pre 2001-Aug-6 #1 built 2001-Aug-6) Received: by proven.weird.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B7D21E8; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:55:06 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: Michael Piotrowski Cc: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation In-Reply-To: References: <20010831210954.E0EB.G.SALMERI@mclink.it> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under Emacs 21.0.103.2 Reply-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru (Lout mailing List) Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada Message-Id: <20010831215506.B7D21E8@proven.weird.com> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:55:06 -0400 (EDT) [ On Friday, August 31, 2001 at 23:27:20 (+0200), Michael Piotrowski wrote: ] > Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation > > That's what I suspect, too. In fact I'm not really sure if the larger > sentence-end space is really a *typographical* convention, and not > just a *typewriter* convention. Before posting the original message I > checked the Chicago Manual of Style, but I couldn't find anything on > that topic. Actually one of the books I consulted before replying myself was the "Chicago Guide to Preparing Electronic Manuscripts". -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird From oliver@first.in-berlin.de Sat Sep 1 02:06:29 2001 Received: from gnu.in-berlin.de (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VM1gf89277 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:01:42 +0400 (MSD) Received: from hirsch.in-berlin.de (root@hirsch.colt.in-berlin.de [213.61.118.6]) by gnu.in-berlin.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7VM02N06926 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:00:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver@first.in-berlin.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by hirsch.in-berlin.de (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with UUCP id f7VM02106710 for lout@ptc.spbu.ru; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:00:02 +0200 X-Envelope-From: oliver@first.in-berlin.de X-Envelope-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by first.in-berlin.de (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04456 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:54:52 +0200 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:54:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Oliver Bandel To: Lout mailing list Subject: 3.24: Errors! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I installed lout 3.24 and it only creates errors. Example: 52,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 64,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 72,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 80,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 88,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 96,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 104,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 112,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 120,2: symbol @PP unknown or misspelt 125,2: symbol @PP unknow more: 6,6: symbol @Color unknown or misspelt 6,24: symbol @Color unknown or misspelt 10,1: fatal error: exiting now or this: lout file "fontdefs" (from "mydoc" line 17, from "verb_lout.lout" line 3): 1,0: cannot open file fontdefs lout file "/usr/local/lout/lout.lib/include/bsf" (from "mydoc" line 19, from "verb_lout.lout" line 3): 33,5: fatal error: exiting now OK, have read in the README or the whatsnew, that this last exaomple can be a problem. But what's with the other errors? ##### When compiling I got a lot of messages on stderr: ...................... z03.c: In function `SearchPath': z03.c:640: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z06.c: In function `HuntCommandOptions': z06.c:150: warning: `opt' might be used uninitialized in this function z06.c:150: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z06.c: In function `Parse': z06.c:1478: warning: comparison is always 1 due to limited range of data type z08.c: In function `ManifestCase': z08.c:405: warning: `firstres' might be used uninitialized in this function z08.c: In function `Manifest': z08.c:885: warning: `res' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c: In function `SpannerAvailableSpace': z12.c:253: warning: `b' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c:253: warning: `f' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c: In function `MinSize': z12.c:331: warning: `llx' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c:331: warning: `lly' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c:331: warning: `urx' might be used uninitialized in this function z12.c:331: warning: `ury' might be used uninitialized in this function z13.c: In function `BreakJoinedGroup': z13.c:51: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z13.c: In function `BreakVcat': z13.c:120: warning: `m' might be used uninitialized in this function z13.c: In function `BreakTable': z13.c:223: warning: `mlink' might be used uninitialized in this function z13.c:224: warning: `ratm' might be used uninitialized in this function z13.c:235: warning: `col_size' might be used uninitialized in this function z14.c: In function `FillObject': z14.c:520: warning: `z' might be used uninitialized in this function z14.c:520: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z14.c:521: warning: `outdent_margin' might be used uninitialized in this function z14.c:634: warning: `right' might be used uninitialized in this function z14.c:652: warning: `left' might be used uninitialized in this function z15.c: In function `CatConstrained': z15.c:314: warning: `backy' might be used uninitialized in this function z15.c:314: warning: `fwdy' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c: In function `FindShift': z16.c:44: warning: `len' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c:44: warning: `res' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c: In function `CatAdjustSize': z16.c:160: warning: `bb' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c:160: warning: `ff' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c: In function `AdjustSize': z16.c:44: warning: `res' might be used uninitialized in this function z16.c:44: warning: `len' might be used uninitialized in this function z17.c: In function `MinGap': z17.c:179: warning: `w' might be used uninitialized in this function z17.c: In function `ActualGap': z17.c:300: warning: `w' might be used uninitialized in this function z18.c: In function `TransferBegin': z18.c:155: warning: `res' might be used uninitialized in this function z19.c: In function `AttachGalley': z19.c:229: warning: `need_precedes' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c: In function `FlushGalley': z20.c:115: warning: `dest_encl' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:117: warning: `need_adjust' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:118: warning: `dest_back' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:118: warning: `dest_fwd' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:119: warning: `frame_size' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:125: warning: `stop_back' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:126: warning: `stop_fwd' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:127: warning: `stop_perp_back' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:128: warning: `stop_perp_fwd' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:134: warning: `perp_back' might be used uninitialized in this function z20.c:134: warning: `perp_fwd' might be used uninitialized in this function z22.c: In function `ExpandRecursives': z22.c:194: warning: `z' might be used uninitialized in this function z22.c: In function `FindSplitInGalley': z22.c:285: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c: In function `FixAndPrintObject': z23.c:883: warning: `inc' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c:883: warning: `adjust_sofar' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c:884: warning: `gaps_sofar' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c:885: warning: `underline_xstart' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c:886: warning: `underline_font' might be used uninitialized in this function z23.c:886: warning: `underline_colour' might be used uninitialized in this function z33.c: In function `DbRetrieveNext': z33.c:858: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c: In function `ReadCharMetrics': z37.c:281: warning: `wx' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c:281: warning: `llx' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c:281: warning: `lly' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c:281: warning: `urx' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c:281: warning: `ury' might be used uninitialized in this function z37.c: In function `FontChange': z37.c:1058: warning: `flen' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c: In function `MapSmallCaps': z38.c:428: warning: `new_x' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:428: warning: `new_acat' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:430: warning: `small_font' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:430: warning: `vshift' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:526: warning: `fnum' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:576: warning: `fnum' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:606: warning: `fnum' might be used uninitialized in this function z38.c:628: warning: `fnum' might be used uninitialized in this function z44.c: In function `VerticalHyphenate': z44.c:267: warning: `large_comp_split' might be used uninitialized in this function z44.c:87: warning: `res' might be used uninitialized in this function z44.c: In function `BuildMergeTree': z44.c:418: warning: `y' might be used uninitialized in this function z44.c: In function `BuildEnclose': z44.c:509: warning: `sym' might be used uninitialized in this function z48.c: In function `PDFFile_Cleanup': z48.c:3487: warning: `dests_obj_num' might be used uninitialized in this function z48.c:3555: warning: `in_object_number' might be used uninitialized in this function z50.c:538: warning: `PI' redefined /usr/include/math.h:361: warning: this is the location of the previous definition z50.c: In function `PDF_PrintWord': z50.c:304: warning: unused variable `cmp' z50.c:304: warning: unused variable `composite' z51.c: In function `Plain_PrintPlainGraphic': z51.c:288: warning: `h' might be used uninitialized in this function z51.c:288: warning: `v' might be used uninitialized in this function ...................... Do I better go back to 3.17? Ciao, Oliver From mxp@dynalabs.de Sat Sep 1 02:36:24 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VMRCf90647 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:27:12 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15612; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:25:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id AAA02497; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:25:23 +0200 (METDST) To: Reimer Behrends Cc: Lout mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> <20010831170617.A11642@cse.msu.edu> From: Michael Piotrowski Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 00:24:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010831170617.A11642@cse.msu.edu> (Reimer Behrends's message of "Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:06:17 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 14 Reimer Behrends writes: [Very interesting quotation clipped] > I am usually using either /lout/ or /compress/ for spacing myself. Thanks for mentioning this! I must have missed the compress option, probably because it's only mentioned in the Expert's Guide. I've been using tex for its compressing behavior (especially useful when automatically generating Lout input), but I think compress is what I really wanted. -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From mxp@dynalabs.de Sat Sep 1 02:36:31 2001 Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VMR1f90640 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:27:01 +0400 (MSD) Received: from eos.mii.dynalabs.de ([195.145.236.227]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15510 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:25:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from mxp@localhost) by eos.mii.dynalabs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) id AAA02494; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:25:20 +0200 (METDST) To: Lout Mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> <20010831204418.682C7E8@proven.weird.com> From: Michael Piotrowski In-Reply-To: <20010831204418.682C7E8@proven.weird.com> (woods@weird.com's message of "Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:44:18 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-Operating-System: HP-UX X-Face: %OvAx]kKl`N,i?yQ+$^p9w2oy)Yg|O}a_~6wtRQ@UTZ*(jSPubbonT]m++M>YBtJqkZZa!W "y5`aI.FoKO%$JHz=ws|i?y^o2bds(+pcp>gcX]H}?-tCzL^ABzJUWYzS{"!_hFg: JD)`kxRKLsNp Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 00:15:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 61 woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) writes: > Do you (or anyone else) have any (preferrably online) references to > documentation describing such regional typesetting customs, and their > history? I don't have anything _comprehensive_, so I'd be very interested, too. >> This is exactly my point: As far as I know, this usage is something >> very specific to the English language (or its American variant?). You >> wouldn't do this in German. > > My point was that regardless of what human language your document is > written in, you should alwasy delineate sentences with double spaces > when you're preparing an electronic manuscript in any markup "language", > and the widely published guides I've read all say the same thing too. Oops, then it wasn't my point ;-) The German guidelines I know don't say anything like this. > The same rules of thumb were strongly advised for typists in > pre-computer days too. Ditto, I only know this from English. > Typically even with text typeset and kerned with a variable-width font > face there's more visible whitespace at the end of a sentence than there > is between any two words (at least in an unjustified paragraph). This > is true even in German and French magazines and books I've examined. Hmm. My experience is different, but we might subscribe different magazines ;-) Thinking about French, I think it actually uses a spacing very different from both German and English--at least traditionally. > However in a mono-spaced font face, such as you obviously get with > almost any mechanical typewriter, and which many of us still prefer on a > computer screen, the resulting wider space between sentences is > extremely valuable for the human reader and makes the text flow to the > eyes much better. > > These issues are independent of language -- all humans have very similar > visual perception capabilities. Typsetting is very much about making > text easy to read ("letter quality" and all that...). The additional > space between sentences is as important as sentence structure is to the > human language in question. *Parts* of these issues are independent of language, yes. But much of it is dependent on language; not the language itself, but its typographic and orthographic traditions that you're used to. For example, many Germans reject abolishing the capitalization of nouns, arguing that it would reading *much* harder. And a good German reader actually _is_ somewhat slower at reading all-lowercase German text (at first). But, guess what, the readers of other languages get along fine with lower-case nouns. It's what you're used to. But I didn't really want to go into this, as it's an area where everybody seems to have their own opinion ;-) -- Michael Piotrowski, M.A. From woods@proven.weird.com Sat Sep 1 02:47:46 2001 Received: from most.weird.com (IDENT:B7SElTM04yiiP8u9dTarsqczTgy6i1jCQlJu/eL1S4YrcOS0VcXo+xJLZwFHwkxQ55VlEc8Cpos@most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by flux.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2/cf-1.1.rbl) with ESMTP id f7VMfGf91016 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:41:16 +0400 (MSD) Received: from proven.weird.com([204.92.254.15]) (5427 bytes) by most.weird.com via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident <[WSXFjpa9hcsxROUXbx59xnFVY1tYeKDjcH9BJu3Lqfnvety7rL2SBs8s3BvxtNZ+V8sB5RJ5ilCKlEG/X468HA==]> using rfc1413) id for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:39:35 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.115-Pre 2001-Aug-6 #1 built 2001-Aug-6) Received: by proven.weird.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ACCC8E8; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:39:33 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: Lout mailing List Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation In-Reply-To: <20010831170617.A11642@cse.msu.edu> References: <20010831171215.B0EB3E8@proven.weird.com> <20010831170617.A11642@cse.msu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under Emacs 21.0.103.2 Reply-To: lout@ptc.spbu.ru (Lout mailing List) Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada Message-Id: <20010831223933.ACCC8E8@proven.weird.com> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:39:33 -0400 (EDT) [ On Friday, August 31, 2001 at 17:06:17 (-0400), Reimer Behrends wrote: ] > Subject: Re: Sentence-end punctuation > > This can become a somewhat religious topic, but modern typography > demands a single space after punctuation, with hardly any exceptions. > Quoth Robert Bringhurst, "The Elements of Typographic Style": > > "In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in > typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff > extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists > were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after > each period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from > unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than > a single space is required after a period, a colon or any other mark of > punctuation. Larger spaces (e.g., en spaces) are /themselves/ > punctuation. > > "The rule is usually altered, however, when setting classical Latin and > Greek, romanized Sanskrit, phonetics or other kinds of texts in which > sentences begin with lowercase letters. In the absence of a capital, a > full /en space/ (M/2) between sentences will generally be welcome." What surprises me about that quote is that it uses the phrase "single space" in the first paragraph, but then more correctly used thw pharase "en space" in the second paragraph. I've rarely ever seen any real typographer speak of white space without qualifying it with its width in some way. I'm not sure if the typo is yours or in the original, but the "en" in the last sentence of the first paragraph is obviously wrong too. In most font faces an 'n' is more narrow than an 'm' and indeed the normal minimum inter-word gap, a smaller space, is usually called an "en space". Also Bringhurst's claim that larger spaces are punctuation is also clearly wrong, at least for English. Only the likes of e e cummings could get away with that kind of nonsense! ;-) Contrary to what Mr. Bringhurst says, your _typing_ will not benefit from unlearning the double-space habit since most typists still produce primarily mono-spaced print, even when typing electronically. Luckily though lout, unlike some other typesetting programs, can be taught to deal with most common conventions though. Another consideration about spacing in typography that I've read about somewhere in the past, which is hinted to in Mr. Bringhurst's text, is the fact that the capital letter which usually begins a new sentence is usually wider than the same lowercase letter in the same face. This tends to visually give the appearance of there being a wider gap between sentences than there is between other words. I don't remember the exact reference for this but I recall that the advice was to adjust the inter-sentence gap appropriately for the font face being used. IIRC the advice was to use more inter-sentence spacing when using a sans-serif font face such as Helvetica, but that additional space was not normally necessary when using Times Roman and even more exaggerated faces such as Bookman. > Or from Sean Cavanaugh's Rules of Typography at: > > http://www.fontsite.com/Pages/RulesOfType/ROT0997.html To actually quote from that page, note particularly: The rationale was that it is easier for the eye to distinguish sentences in this fashion. When using monospaced fonts (read: typewriter fonts), there might be some validity to this. [[ .... ]] While not necessary, it is acceptable and often more readable when composing e-mail (text that will be read online and not printed) to insert two spaces after periods, question and exclamation marks, and colons. Which is exactly what I've been saying too.... It seems that even most of the "experts" who don't like extra spacing between sentences concede that it's beneficial in mono-spaced print, and the reasons for this should be independent of the human language the print represents. While off-topic w.r.t. lout, note that typewriter rules should still apply when preparing HTML too -- none of the browsers I used to examine the RulesOfType page above showed anything meaningful in the HTML text (the examples of both spaces and dashes could only be discriminated in the GIF images). -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird