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A teacher is better than two books. ------------006C61C2271B109-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 01 22:22:33 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F4V3J-0003Rt-9F for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:22:33 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4V3I-0003RU-2Z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:22:32 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4V3H-0003R4-0Q for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:22:31 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F4V3G-0003R1-Pi for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:22:30 -0500 Received: from [222.244.17.49] (helo=localhost) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F4V1z-00056n-Tn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:21:14 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c627d1$3b1c5b00$0100007f@localhost> From: "Alexander Russell" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C627D1.3B1C5B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Software At Low Pr1ce X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 03:22:32 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:00:25 +0800 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 03:22:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C627D1.3B1C5B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TOP 10 NEW TITLES ON SALE NOW! 1 Office Pro 2003 2 Adobe Photoshop 9.0 3 Windows XP Pro 4 Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro 5 Flash MX 2004 6 Corel Draw 12 7 Norton Antivirus 2005 8 Windows 2003 Server 9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt 10 Adobe Illustrator 11 See more by this manufacturer Microsoft Symantec Adobe Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 by Microsoft ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 41 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 50 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 38 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C627D1.3B1C5B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C627F8.FD332D00-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 02 11:54:42 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F4hZP-0007RO-48 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:44:31 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4f4l-0004KA-GB for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:04:44 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4f4Z-0004HG-S1 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:04:33 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F4eok-0001AW-7q for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:48:10 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F4enZ-0006r0-Ak for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:46:58 -0500 Received: from [84.13.37.242] (helo=199.232.41.8) by mx20.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F4dd2-0002KZ-Ew for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:32:16 -0500 Received: from 867@localhost by YeS.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:50:33 +0100 Message-ID: <0dL3zV2TwrABAPxfmtx4wj.nhnTry6yIfRYe7p@cigarboxguitars.com> From: "Usher Raymond IV" To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:43:33 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: GinaStephens@cigarboxguitars.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--fN5MwLAemSj5vwFBQf" Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] MS Office 2003 Pro $69.95 Systemworks X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Usher Raymond IV List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:44:28 -0000 JD4XAf6uRoXW ----fN5MwLAemSj5vwFBQf Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 9
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= ----fN5MwLAemSj5vwFBQf-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 02 14:47:16 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F4kQF-0000kV-8K for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:47:15 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4kQ9-0000hl-6P for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:47:11 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F4kQ7-0000gd-7W for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:47:08 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F4kQ6-0000gT-Ui; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:47:07 -0500 Received: from [71.102.152.167] (helo=pool-71-102-152-167.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F4kOy-0003Cd-Vm; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:45:57 -0500 FCC: mailbox://dcoiewkbdrln@yahoo.com/Sent X-Identity-Key: iD7 Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:42:48 -0500 From: Shelby Hatcher X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------020602080609070703020003" Message-Id: Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] re[2] X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:47:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020602080609070703020003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Annie gunned it fiercely. Applet in 1921 It was a slap.

It was summer vacation, his father working, his mother gone to spend the day in Boston with Mrs Kaspbrak from across the street. all right. You know that, don't you? Thought of them smelling his helplessness, perhaps. He got into the Bel Air. The fifth was still burning; he put it out with the already blistered heel of his right hand as he stuffed it in. Another memory came then; it seemed like this was an All Request Oldies day for Paul Sheldon. I do ask you.

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2006 08:33:16 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F50Cw-0003vQ-2V for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 07:38:36 -0500 Received: from [211.172.138.130] (helo=localhost) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F50Bv-0001sc-2J for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2006 07:37:32 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c628e8$33030f00$0100007f@localhost> From: "Alejandro Robinson" To: Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:35:06 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C628E8.33030F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Photoshop, Windows, Office X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 18:06:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C628E8.33030F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TOP 10 NEW TITLES ON SALE NOW! 1 Office Pro 2003 2 Adobe Photoshop 9.0 3 Windows XP Pro 4 Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro 5 Flash MX 2004 6 Corel Draw 12 7 Norton Antivirus 2005 8 Windows 2003 Server 9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt 10 Adobe Illustrator 11 See more by this manufacturer Microsoft Symantec Adobe Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 by Microsoft ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 37 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 49 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 39 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C628E8.33030F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

TOP 10 NEW TITLES

 ON SALE NOW!

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  10 Adobe Illustrator 11
  See more by this manufacturer
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Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
   by Microsoft

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Microsoft Windows XP Professional
   by Microsoft

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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
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Availability: Available for INSTANT download!


Sales Rank: #3
Average Customer Review: 3D"5
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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C628E8.33030F00-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 05 05:40:40 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F5hJw-0000X6-9K for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:40:40 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F5hJv-0000X1-5g for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:40:39 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F5hJt-0000Wp-Mh for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:40:38 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F5hJt-0000Wm-JG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:40:37 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F5hJC-0002uT-J9; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:39:54 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F5hGs-0002fN-00; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:37:30 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:37:30 +0000 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:37:30 +0000 To: Simon Josefsson , Sylvain Beucler , savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: anonymous X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:80 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: task X-Savane-Item-ID: 3490 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Firefox/0.10 X-Apparently-From: 200.181.171.48 Message-Id: <20060205-103730.sv0.49548@savannah.gnu.org> References: <20051218-142018.sv20998.71790@savannah.gnu.org> <20051218-142036.sv20998.82951@savannah.gnu.org> <20051218-152139.sv20998.47651@savannah.gnu.org> <20051225-223543.sv0.21191@savannah.gnu.org> <20060110-142139.sv0.43698@savannah.gnu.org> <20060120-230115.sv0.94155@savannah.gnu.org> <20060124-141148.sv0.1166@savannah.gnu.org> <20060125-003954.sv0.97799@savannah.gnu.org> <20060128-173306.sv0.62262@savannah.gnu.org> <20060129-001010.sv0.94920@savannah.gnu.org> <20060130-235000.sv0.19943@savannah.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <20060130-235000.sv0.19943@savannah.gnu.org> Cc: Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [task #3490] Reassigned item: Write-access to CVS via rsync or similar X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 10:40:39 -0000 Follow-up Comment #17, task #3490 (project administration): Hi, please visit my site. Thank you. _______________________________________________________ Reply to this item at: _______________________________________________ Message sent via/by Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 05 21:03:56 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F5vjQ-0006RV-9p for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:56 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F5vjN-0006Qq-DN for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:53 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F5vjM-0006Qe-Et for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:53 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F5vjM-0006Qb-Bc; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:52 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F5vim-0007pY-1u; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:16 -0500 Received: from [81.248.140.3] (helo=APointe-a-Pitre-104-1-4-3.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr) by mx20.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F5vft-0002lY-Fk; Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:00:20 -0500 FCC: mailbox://yzxjenmphl@yahoo.com/Sent X-Identity-Key: Id7 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:52:10 +0500 From: Hollie Heller X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: savannah-compromise@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------090301080402030202050003" Message-Id: Cc: Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] re[13] X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 02:03:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090301080402030202050003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Around four o'clock of the second day, Pretty Thirsty made its move. select location from in 1942 This had been almost half a year ago, in the spring.

"His big foolish grin stretched even wider; he thought soon it would meet in the back, tie a lover's knot there, and most of his poor old bean would just topple off. There were days when he felt he could bend spoons simply by looking at them. The work could proceed. . He looked up at her warily as she stood and reached into the little khaki bag. He looked at the half-demolished avalanche of her sundae, one cherry almost buried in whipped cream, another floating in chocolate syrup. ""Bully for the Eustice Public Works Department,»Paul said, but what came out was badly slurred — Burry furdah Estice Pulleyqurks Deparrent. Not so good.

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(213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 12:08:00 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 6 Feb 2006 12:08:00 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F659x-0001xi-Q7; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:07:57 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:07:57 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Karl Berry Message-ID: <20060206120757.GA7478@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060131153107.GC16851@localhost.localdomain> <200601312151.k0VLpvE04642@f7.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200601312151.k0VLpvE04642@f7.net> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:15:02 -0000 Hi Karl, I knew that it is planned to revamp the mail system. I guess nobody wants to work on a setup that will disappear within 3 months. What do you think we can lose on list.gnu.org? Also, I recently cleaned-up moderation requests for a closed mailing-list and saw we have ~100000 pending requests (in /var/mailman/data). Interesting point is: we have the privileges to act on this data, and we could delete requests that belong to deleted lists, or that are more than 3 months old, for example. I think that would speed up things a bit anyway, because accessing this directory is really slow, Mailman must do so on a regular basis to send daily mail about pending request, and this will stay that way whatever mail system we use (unless the Mailman people started splitting this directory in later versions). Maybe we can talk with sysadmin about this issue and see what we can do right now, what do you think? -- Sylvain On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 03:51:57PM -0600, Karl Berry wrote: > Did you actually ask sysadmin to add the Maiman queue auto-purging > feature? If not yet, would you mind keeping Savannah hackers in Cc? > > I did, and here is what Justin replied ... feel free to forward to the > appropriate savannah list. (I don't know any more about the upgrade > than what is stated here. I hope that we won't lose everything we've > done.) > > > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:22:27 -0500 > From: "Justin Baugh via RT" > To: karl@freefriends.org > Cc: bob@proulx.com > Subject: [gnu.org #272260] mailman upgrade to 2.1.7 on lists.gnu.org > > > It would be nice to upgrade mailman on lists.gnu.org to the current > > version, because there is a new option max_days_to_hold which could be > > used to avoid queues of unmaintained lists growing without bound, as > > they do now. (There are some lists with thousands of pending messages, > > sigh. Continuing to work on that.) > > > > The feature was actually added in 2.1.6, but since 2.1.7 is the latest ... > > This would be fairly difficult to do on the current lists.gnu.org due to > the rustiness of the distribution on it; thankfully, we will be > replacing the entire mail & list system with two new quad Opteron > machines by the end of March - lists will be totally redone and upgraded > during that process. 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C62B6B.FC3D2B00-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 06 14:23:31 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F6BxT-0003hu-7S for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:23:31 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F6BxP-0003hK-Pk for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:23:27 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F6BxO-0003h8-4l for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:23:27 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6BxO-0003h5-2m for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:23:26 -0500 Received: from [64.34.169.74] (helo=f7.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F6Bwv-0003wN-BV; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:22:57 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org X-Envelope-To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Received: (from karl@localhost) by f7.net (8.11.7-20030920/8.11.7) id k16JJtf29475; Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:19:55 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:19:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200602061919.k16JJtf29475@f7.net> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) To: beuc@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20060206120757.GA7478@localhost.localdomain> Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, bob@proulx.com Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:23:28 -0000 Hi Sylvain, Yes, as I mentioned in previous messages, Bob Proulx and I have spent some time looking at the huge collection of pending messages. info-cvs is by far the worst. We cleaned up the scheme lists after Chris Hanson, the moderator, replied to one of my initial queries about it. In doing that, I found that mailman's discard command did not work well. The lists' dbs got corrupted and even the (few) real messages were not visible (I resent them manually). On the other hand, just rm'ing the files didn't work well either; then the msgs were still visible in the pending queue, albeit with some information missing. However, doing that will at least clean up the directory, so maybe it is the way to go for now. The only alternative I can think of is to run them through Bob's system and generate a discard message for each. I didn't realize there were deleted lists. I see no reason not to delete anything pending for a delete list right away. That can only help. As for the pending msgs on active lists, perhaps the most expedient thing to do is save a copy of everything and then just delete everything older than N months with whatever method you want to try. Perhaps try N=6 and see if that makes the number more manageable? And then set it up to happen via cron to avoid things building up again. I have never had any luck engaging sysadmin on this issue. It's good to keep them informed, of course, but I wouldn't wait around for them to actually do anything. What we really need to do is recruit more moderators, but I haven't had a lot of success in that area either. Thanks, Karl From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 06 19:03:42 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F6GKc-0001Sk-4Q for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:03:42 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F6GKY-0001Qt-2y for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:03:38 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F6GKU-0001QB-GH for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:03:36 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F6GKS-0001P3-H3 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:03:33 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F6GJx-0004hE-Fn; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:03:01 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F6GHM-0003N5-00; Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:00:20 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:00:20 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:00:20 +0000 To: Dan =?UTF-8?B?U2FpbnQtQW5kcsOp?= , Bjarke Freund-Hansen , Mathieu Roy , Sylvain Beucler , savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: anonymous X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:80 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: task X-Savane-Item-ID: 3495 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1) X-Apparently-From: 67.18.98.36 Message-Id: <20060207-000020.sv0.35667@savannah.gnu.org> References: <20060110-161405.sv0.11694@savannah.gnu.org> <20060123-024703.sv0.32128@savannah.gnu.org> <20060129-200738.sv0.53929@savannah.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <20060129-200738.sv0.53929@savannah.gnu.org> Cc: Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [task #3495] Reassigned item: Reassigned item: skills to add X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:03:39 -0000 Follow-up Comment #9, task #3495 (project administration): Have a nice day! 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References: <74a672470601270137i602006d8ve33697f341ef11f0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <74a672470601270137i602006d8ve33697f341ef11f0@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.84.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:14:23 -0000 Hello out there. tizzef @ gmail wrote: > Hi there. > > I heard that you are looking for an admin to work day-to-day on the > savannah web site. Yes, particularly for the review of new project submissions. That means to check if a new project go along with the Savannah policy, the GNU GPL (or compatible licensens) and to check outside requirements. If you are interested to start in it, please join #savannah at irc.freenode.fr to start there. > I want to involve myself into Open Source and support FSF and GPL. > So, please let me know if I can help you in anyway. Note that Savannah supports projects of the Free Software movement, not projects of the Open Source movement. We are careful about ethical issues and insist on producing software that is not dependent on proprietary software. While Open Source as defined by its founders means something pretty close to Free Software, it's frequently misunderstood. For more information, please see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html. Regards, -- | kickino.org || logic-bomb.org || forkbomb.ch || herder-gymnasium.de | Even "The Magic 8 Ball" is smart, and knows Microsoft Sucks. It says "Outlook Not Good." 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dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------5D0404BB4B854E3-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 09 14:25:23 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HPu-0007V5-Gb for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:25:22 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HHa-0004VH-2s for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:16:46 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HHI-0004JF-KL for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:16:33 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HHH-0004Is-Dh for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:16:27 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7HKs-0003AW-I0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:20:10 -0500 Received: (qmail 12348 invoked by uid 503); 9 Feb 2006 19:16:41 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 09 Feb 2006 19:16:41 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail51.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:16:41 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:16:16 -0000 Received: from mail51.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.51) by mail51.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:16:10 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:15:40 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:15:40 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F7HGT-00041x-SE; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:15:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:15:37 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: sysadmin@gnu.org Message-ID: <20060209191536.GA15228@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:24:46 -0000 Hi, You can please have a look at this item: https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=105131 It's related to the mail system. Maybe you can tell Greb Chicares whether the issues is from our end or not. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 09 14:40:00 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HcB-0004jT-Kr for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:38:04 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HMc-0006EP-Kr for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:21:59 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HMS-0006BZ-NZ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:21:51 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7HMS-0006BN-3e for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:21:48 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7HQ3-0004Fc-9a for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:25:31 -0500 Received: (qmail 30462 invoked by uid 503); 9 Feb 2006 19:22:02 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 09 Feb 2006 19:22:02 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail51.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:22:02 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:21:35 -0000 Received: from mail51.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.51) by mail51.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:21:31 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:21:31 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 19:21:31 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F7HM9-00042Z-8m; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:21:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:21:28 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: stoet@pcg.wustl.edu Message-ID: <20060209192128.GB15228@localhost.localdomain> References: <17383.24182.302488.135906@volition.wustl.edu> <20060207114503.GC9841@localhost.localdomain> <17385.13187.564201.861852@volition.wustl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17385.13187.564201.861852@volition.wustl.edu> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: [Savannah-help-public] problem with maintaining Emarks on savannah X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:37:05 -0000 > > Hi, > > > > The best would be that you edit the current emarks website so that it > > tells people to look at your new website. Removing your website would > > be an exception and we don't like exceptions when managing thousands > > of projects ;) > > > > What is the problem with updating your website? You need to edit the > > CVS repository at cvs.savannah.gnu.org/web/emarks/, just like you edit > > cvs.savannah.gnu.org/sources/emarks for the source code. > > Hi Sylvain, > > well, I followed the instructions I found on your webpage > > > ssh-keygen -t dsa > > Then copy ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub at > http://savannah.gnu.org/account/editsshkeys.php (once logged > in). > > but despite many tries in the last week, I just can't get it to work. > I don't know whether this is due to my limited knowledge of cvs or > whether there is some other problem...I am giving up. Well that's the very beginning of the procedure. You need to follow the instructions on: https://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=emarks that is, checkout the repository: cvs -z3 -d dutchware@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/web/emarks co emarks edit index.html & others check-in: cvs commit index.html and wait for the hourly replication. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 09 17:34:57 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7KNL-0001wT-M8 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:34:56 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7KKS-0006CL-5u for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:31:56 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7KKP-00066H-51 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:31:53 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7KKN-00064z-Lb for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:31:51 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7KO0-0005uz-RH for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:35:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 25054 invoked by uid 503); 9 Feb 2006 22:32:06 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 09 Feb 2006 22:32:06 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail51.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 22:32:06 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 22:31:41 -0000 Received: from mail51.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.51) by mail51.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 22:31:33 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 22:08:24 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2006 22:08:24 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F7JxR-00048c-Ez; Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:08:09 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 23:08:09 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Karl Berry Message-ID: <20060209220809.GD15228@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060206120757.GA7478@localhost.localdomain> <200602061919.k16JJtf29475@f7.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602061919.k16JJtf29475@f7.net> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, sysadmin@gnu.org, bob@proulx.com Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:32:15 -0000 Sysadmin, Karl and I have had a look at the Mailman held messages. We have a growing list of around 120,000 messages, all in the same directory. I state it, so you keep that in mind for the upcoming mail system. For example, Karl mentioned a Mailman feature to clean-up old requests, but nor Sarge not Fedora 4 include it yet. What's your point on this? Do you already have something in mind to cope with all those held messages? Do you think this currently significantly impact performances? More details now - a direct reply to Karl :) On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 01:19:55PM -0600, Karl Berry wrote: > On the other hand, just rm'ing the files didn't work well either; then > the msgs were still visible in the pending queue, albeit with some > information missing. However, doing that will at least clean up the > directory, so maybe it is the way to go for now. I did so for removed mailing lists (~500 msgs), and also removed held messages under an old format (files in *.txt) back from 2002 (~6000 msgs). More precisions in the ChangeLog. I also noticed that you see the "pending queue [...] with some information missing" only once. After that, Mailman regenerates request.pck; so a little curl http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/admindb/listname -F adminpw=***** per list would clean the list of messages. Instead of (or in addition to) setting up a clean-up cron-job (I hope the next mailsystem will use that recent version of Maiman), an alternative would be to cope with the "top-ten", which accounts for around around 50% of all messages: 1017 adhoc 1099 alcovebook-dev 1116 fsfe-portugal 1162 dmca-activists 1259 gnump3d-devel 1311 bug-gnu-chess 1634 a2ps 2426 info-gnu-fortran 2484 cons-discuss 11556 bug-vcdimager 29634 info-cvs Last 6 months of all held messages represent more than half of all held messages actually, so maybe it's not as useful as I though wrt performances - we always get thousands of held messages at once, unless we clean messages earlier than after 6 months. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 09:31:19 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7ZI5-00017X-Hg for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:30:30 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7ZHc-0000qp-Kz for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:30:01 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7ZHM-0000X9-66 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:29:45 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7ZF5-0007je-TS for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:27:24 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7ZIs-0006tY-KT for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:31:18 -0500 Received: from [84.122.60.107] (helo=143868072) by mx20.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F7ZEu-0001sS-Is for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:27:22 -0500 Received: from gromer.com (143811160 [143811592]) by 84-122-60-107.onocable.ono.com (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id 6EEA93EB91 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:14:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:14:06 -0600 From: "Regarding A. Formulate" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.1) Personal X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <5183580995.20060210101406@gromer.com> To: Savannah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------DE5AFD3166BC242" X-GMX-Antivirus: 0 (no virus found) Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Pharmaceutical revolution X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:30:26 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------DE5AFD3166BC242 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Revolution in pharmyacology! LOW prices in the net! We achieved this! 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Online Pharmaceuticals dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------DE5AFD3166BC242-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 15:49:45 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fD7-00016y-3U for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fD4-00015y-1N for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:42 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fD2-00015C-J0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:41 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fD2-000154-3k for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:40 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F7fGr-0007sW-PG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:53:38 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F7fCz-0003vj-00 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:37 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:49:37 +0000 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:49:37 +0000 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050317 Firefox/1.0.2 X-Apparently-From: 84.184.108.70 (Savane authenticated user kickino) Message-Id: <20060210-204937.sv26899.40664@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Basic anti-spam X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:49:42 -0000 I've hacked a quick anti-spam for anonymous tracker comments based on http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MoreAboutCodes If there's a problem we'll see if we need something more complicated. Next step is ability to hide existing spam and a turing test for new registrations. I do not have the time to implement this at the moment, so feel free to contribute a patch to project Savane :) _______________________________________________ Message sent via/by Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 15:59:04 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fM8-00037G-QO for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:04 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fM7-00035N-0e for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:03 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fM6-00034d-3I for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:02 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7fM5-00034T-VY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:02 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F7fPw-0000Aq-7B for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:03:00 -0500 Received: from exal by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1F7fM4-0003hG-Qw; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:59:00 -0500 From: Exal de Jesus Garcia Carrillo To: Sylvain Beucler Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Basic anti-spam Message-ID: <20060210205900.GA13923@gnu.org> References: <20060210-204937.sv26899.40664@savannah.gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zhXaljGHf11kAtnf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060210-204937.sv26899.40664@savannah.gnu.org> Openpgp: url=http://pgp.mit.edu/ X-Editor: vim http://www.vim.org/ X-Mailer: mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Accept-Language: es, en X-Location: Mexico X-Antiabuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it wit any abuse report X-OB-Toomany: x-antiabuse 5 X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux Organization: GNU Project User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:59:03 -0000 --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oh, good idea :) On 10 de Feb de 06, a las 08:49 +0000, Sylvain Beucler wrote: >=20 > I've hacked a quick anti-spam for anonymous tracker comments based on > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MoreAboutCodes >=20 > If there's a problem we'll see if we need something more complicated. >=20 > Next step is ability to hide existing spam and a turing test for new > registrations. I do not have the time to implement this at the moment, so > feel free to contribute a patch to project Savane :) >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Message sent via/by Savannah > http://savannah.gnu.org/ >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Exal de Jes=FAs Garc=EDa Carrillo http://www.gnu.org --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD7P6UoZmxoVJRtGIRAoilAJ9xNeeeOdFoxC6AINIrtfYiE/uvxwCcCV+m yF+Y3pIoUalsKlu3k1aUtWg= =Ri4e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 17:41:09 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gwv-0002Jf-Bz for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:41:09 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gwt-0002GQ-IU for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:41:07 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gws-0002Eq-6H for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:41:07 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gwr-0002Ef-Us for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:41:06 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F7h0j-0007B9-Bf for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:45:05 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F7gwr-00007z-00 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:41:05 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:41:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:41:05 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050922 Firefox/1.0.7 (Debian package 1.0.7-1) X-Apparently-From: 82.238.35.175 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060210-234105.sv20998.89331@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Licenses clarification X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:41:07 -0000 One of Savannah's unique features is the emphasis on verifying all licenses for consistency (only free software licenses, no incompatibilities among project components) and compatibility with the GNU GPL (version 2 or later, so that Savannah projects, notably GNU projects, can easily build upon each other's code). It is not clear what licenses we accept for documentation. In the same spirit - be able to easily share and build manuals under the GNU license - we plan to ask new projects to release documentation under a license compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License. As always, it is perfectly acceptable to dual-license the work under the GFDL and another license, if needed. This concept applies to manuals written in Texinfo, and documentation which ought to be improved into such manuals. Informal materials, FAQs, and so on can be under a license compatible with the GNU GPL or the GFDL (or both). This has been informally discussed on #savannah, without objection from the present staff and non-staff until this was actually used during a project registration, before we found the time to properly state it (we're still looking for help to review project submissions, by the way :)) If your existing Savannah project contains documentation that is not compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License, please contact us so we can better estimate the current licenses 'repartition'. We would be please to get comments at savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org. _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 17:42:46 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gyU-00036N-CJ for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:46 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gyS-00034Z-Jg for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:44 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gyP-00033d-Ow for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:44 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7gyP-00033Z-Iw for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:41 -0500 Received: from [69.72.225.74] (helo=websitebox.websitebox.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7h2G-0007FW-AX for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:46:40 -0500 Received: from nobody by websitebox.websitebox.net with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F7gyG-000510-6O for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:32 -0500 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Chase Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:42:32 -0500 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - websitebox.websitebox.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - websitebox.websitebox.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Chase OnlineSM $20 Reward Survey X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: no-reply@chase.com List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:42:45 -0000

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From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 10 19:00:32 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F7iBk-0002ce-7z for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:00:32 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7iBi-0002cQ-B4 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:00:30 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F7iBf-0002bi-EG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:00:29 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F7iBe-0002bd-TZ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:00:27 -0500 Received: from [64.34.169.74] (helo=f7.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F7iFR-0004Q7-RB; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:04:21 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org X-Envelope-To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Received: (from karl@localhost) by f7.net (8.11.7-20030920/8.11.7) id k1B00K221150; Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:00:20 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:00:20 -0600 Message-Id: <200602110000.k1B00K221150@f7.net> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) To: beuc@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20060209220809.GD15228@localhost.localdomain> Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, sysadmin@gnu.org, bob@proulx.com Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:00:31 -0000 example, Karl mentioned a Mailman feature to clean-up old requests, but nor Sarge not Fedora 4 include it yet. Personally, when it comes to our own software, I think we should run the latest versions released by GNU, not the versions as packaged by Debian or whomever. I don't mean replacing their version of /bin/ls and the like (that would be crazy), but installing the latest releases under /usr/local or other non-system locations and using them from there when appropriate. As it would be for mailman. Why should our mail setup be dependent on what Debian has managed to package? (I've set up my own systems like this for many years, so crucial system services are not impacted by os packagers' decisions.) I did so for removed mailing lists (~500 msgs), and also removed held messages under an old format (files in *.txt) back from 2002 (~6000 msgs). All to the good. I also noticed that you see the "pending queue [...] with some information missing" only once. Ah, very interesting. I hadn't realized that. So that should make it no problem to delete the old msgs. I think we should. Last 6 months of all held messages represent more than half of all held messages actually, so maybe it's not as useful But still very useful. I strongly think we should go ahead and delete them (after saving a copy of course). And might as well cron the find+curl commands to do it, since it's easy enough to do, instead of accumulating more months of old msgs. Ok? 1634 a2ps I'm baffled by this one. When I go to http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/admindb/a2ps there are no pending messages. we always get thousands of held messages at once, We can think about strategies to reduce this, and the overall load on the system, but it's a long-term project. Meanwhile, getting rid of the ancient cruft in the queues will only help, seems to me. Thanks much, Karl From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 11 15:16:29 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F81AR-000186-Tq for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:16:28 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F81AM-00016g-SJ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:16:23 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F81AK-00015g-41 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:16:21 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F80IQ-000863-Qi for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:20:38 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F7xsm-0001Qd-U8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:46:01 -0500 Received: (qmail 13368 invoked by uid 503); 11 Feb 2006 16:42:06 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 11 Feb 2006 16:42:06 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2006 16:42:06 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2006 16:41:51 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2006 16:41:48 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2006 16:41:47 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2006 16:41:47 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F7xoV-0007OK-Ck; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:41:35 +0100 Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:41:35 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] First contact. Message-ID: <20060211164135.GC27996@localhost.localdomain> References: <74a672470601270137i602006d8ve33697f341ef11f0@mail.gmail.com> <43E9CF3F.50703@arcor.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <43E9CF3F.50703@arcor.de> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: "tizzef @ gmail" X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:16:24 -0000 Salut tizzef, C'est "oui" ou c'est "non", mais ne nous laisse pas dans l'incertitude :) Je ne te cache pas que dans la situation courante il faudra prendre un peu les devants - on a beaucoup de choses en parallèle et peu de temps libre. -- Sylvain On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 12:00:15PM +0100, Sebastian Wieseler wrote: > Hello out there. > > tizzef @ gmail wrote: > >Hi there. > > > >I heard that you are looking for an admin to work day-to-day on the > >savannah web site. > > Yes, particularly for the review of new project submissions. That means > to check if a new project go along with the Savannah policy, the GNU GPL > (or compatible licensens) and to check outside requirements. > > If you are interested to start in it, please join > #savannah at irc.freenode.fr to start there. > > > >I want to involve myself into Open Source and support FSF and GPL. > >So, please let me know if I can help you in anyway. > > Note that Savannah supports projects of the Free Software movement, not > projects of the Open Source movement. > > We are careful about ethical issues and insist on producing software > that is not dependent on proprietary software. > > While Open Source as defined by its founders means something pretty > close to Free Software, it's frequently > misunderstood. > For more information, please see > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html. 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The day has eyes, the night has ears. ------------2FA9FB55BC4FD73-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 11 21:16:33 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F86mu-0007Um-NZ for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:16:33 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F86mq-0007RS-8A for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:16:28 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F86mn-0007OR-DT for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:16:27 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F86m2-0006T1-7V for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:15:38 -0500 Received: from [82.138.229.70] (helo=mailin.phonecoop.coop) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F86q9-0002R4-5e for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:19:53 -0500 Received: from [213.55.30.50] (port=1904 helo=pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk ident=ENoPulsar) by mailin.phonecoop.coop with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1F86lt-0002pA-JC for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 02:15:29 +0000 Received: from mjr by pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F86ls-0003a3-00 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 02:15:28 +0000 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Licenses clarification To: In-Reply-To: <20060210-234105.sv20998.89331@savannah.gnu.org> Message-Id: From: MJ Ray Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 02:15:28 +0000 X-Antivirus-Scanned: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 02:16:29 -0000 > It is not clear what licenses we accept for documentation. In > the same spirit - be able to easily share and build manuals > under the GNU license - we plan to ask new projects to release > documentation under a license compatible with the GNU Free > Documentation License. Many free software authors consider the adware potential of the GNU FDL to be an unacceptable price to pay "to enlist commercial publishers in funding free documentation"[1] and consider the freedom to remove or reduce inappropriate or unethical advertising a vital liberty. To give two topical examples: - the unethical environmental harm of wasting paper printing a large invariant section when deriving a quick reference card from a manual; - the potential for imprisonment, hate crimes and other problems if an author has solicited an illegal act or advertised a widely- hated political or terror group in their invariant sections. For these sorts of reasons and others, dual-licensing is not a welcome suggestion. That would still allow others to attach things permanently and force *all* downstream distributors of manual derivatives to damage the world more. It may be possible to use moral rights to object to such derogatory treatment of our work, but it looks like it could be argued (from [2]) that we don't have that right for some works that use the FDL. Practically, the FDL is also incompatible with the GPL. Please continue to allow projects under only GPL-compatible licences and require that projects place manuals under a GPL-compatible licence as well as any other licence used. References: [1] - Why publishers should use the GNU FDL by Richard Stallman http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-gfdl.html [2] - Section 81: Exceptions to right. Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 http://www.jenkins-ip.com/patlaw/cdpa1.htm#s81 Hope that helps, -- MJR/slef From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 11 23:33:00 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F88ux-0001B4-5R for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:59 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F88ut-00016b-Mu for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:56 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F88uq-00010i-3J for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:54 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F88up-0000zb-Cg for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:51 -0500 Received: from [209.86.89.64] (helo=smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F88yy-0003ZI-DW for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:37:08 -0500 Received: from [24.41.6.91] (helo=approximate.corpus.cam.ac.uk) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.34) id 1F88uo-0007xf-1p; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:50 -0500 Received: from sanjoy by approximate.corpus.cam.ac.uk with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F88uW-0002h8-7X; Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:32 -0500 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailer: MH-E 7.85; nmh 1.1; GNU Emacs 21.4.1 Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:32:32 -0500 From: Sanjoy Mahajan Message-Id: X-ELNK-Trace: dcd19350f30646cc26f3bd1b5f75c9f474bf435c0eb9d478f6de188fdd142d4eaf63aa9a6a3599daa56f517c1fe49418350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.41.6.91 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:32:56 -0000 > We would be please to get comments The GFDL is a terrible license. People can add invariant sections and balkanize the derivative works, defeating the point of copyleft. For example, suppose a clever Bush supporter rewrites the documentation in XML and adds an invariant section denying global warming or praising 'intelligent design'. I might like to use the XML rewrite, but I don't want to include their rubbish about global warming. So now the project has forked with no easy way to bring it back. -Sanjoy `A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.' - Bertrand de Jouvenal From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 12 05:51:14 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Eoz-00069g-Ld for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:51:13 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Eox-00066W-Fh for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:51:11 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Eou-00062L-Sc for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:51:10 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Eot-00061X-Ut for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:51:08 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8Et6-0003Wa-6r for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:55:28 -0500 Received: (qmail 10176 invoked by uid 503); 12 Feb 2006 10:51:22 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 12 Feb 2006 10:51:22 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 10:51:22 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 10:51:08 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 10:51:05 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 10:51:04 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 10:51:04 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F8Eod-0000N0-EC; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:50:51 +0100 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:50:51 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Sanjoy Mahajan Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-ID: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:51:12 -0000 > The GFDL is a terrible license. People can add invariant sections and > balkanize the derivative works, defeating the point of copyleft. For > example, suppose a clever Bush supporter rewrites the documentation in > XML and adds an invariant section denying global warming or praising > 'intelligent design'. I might like to use the XML rewrite, but I don't > want to include their rubbish about global warming. So now the project > has forked with no easy way to bring it back. Hi, I don't think such a section would be acceptable. What you can add as an invariant section is pretty limited and can't be anything one want. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 12 07:37:28 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8GTm-0000sS-OX for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:37:27 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8GTh-0000qV-Ar for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:37:22 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8GTd-0000oV-Gu for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:37:19 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8GTb-0000nk-OZ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:37:16 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8GXp-0002YG-7G for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:41:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 14118 invoked by uid 503); 12 Feb 2006 12:37:30 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 12 Feb 2006 12:37:30 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 12:37:30 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 12:37:16 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 12:37:12 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 12:37:12 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2006 12:37:12 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F8GTM-0000Q4-Ei; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:37:00 +0100 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:37:00 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Licenses clarification Message-ID: <20060212123700.GC1407@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060210-234105.sv20998.89331@savannah.gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:37:23 -0000 Hi, Afaics dual-licensing is a way to avoid the kind of problems you mentioned (for your specific examples I think there are others). Note that it's not about accepting the GFDL as a license, since we already do so. Thanks for your feedback, -- Sylvain On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 02:15:28AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote: > > It is not clear what licenses we accept for documentation. In > > the same spirit - be able to easily share and build manuals > > under the GNU license - we plan to ask new projects to release > > documentation under a license compatible with the GNU Free > > Documentation License. > > Many free software authors consider the adware potential of the > GNU FDL to be an unacceptable price to pay "to enlist commercial > publishers in funding free documentation"[1] and consider the > freedom to remove or reduce inappropriate or unethical advertising > a vital liberty. To give two topical examples: > - the unethical environmental harm of wasting paper printing > a large invariant section when deriving a quick reference card > from a manual; > - the potential for imprisonment, hate crimes and other problems > if an author has solicited an illegal act or advertised a widely- > hated political or terror group in their invariant sections. > > For these sorts of reasons and others, dual-licensing is not > a welcome suggestion. That would still allow others to attach > things permanently and force *all* downstream distributors of > manual derivatives to damage the world more. It may be possible > to use moral rights to object to such derogatory treatment > of our work, but it looks like it could be argued (from [2]) > that we don't have that right for some works that use the FDL. > > Practically, the FDL is also incompatible with the GPL. Please > continue to allow projects under only GPL-compatible licences > and require that projects place manuals under a GPL-compatible > licence as well as any other licence used. > > References: > > [1] - Why publishers should use the GNU FDL > by Richard Stallman > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-gfdl.html > > [2] - Section 81: Exceptions to right. > Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 > http://www.jenkins-ip.com/patlaw/cdpa1.htm#s81 From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 12 10:06:43 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8IoE-0007uY-TP for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:06:43 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8IoA-0007uF-6c for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:06:38 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Io7-0007ta-Qh for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:06:37 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8Io7-0007tG-Dn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:06:35 -0500 Received: from [217.129.55.29] (helo=-1219403384) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8IsK-0000Am-9L for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:10:58 -0500 Received: from gmm-mpi.com (-1219438920 [-1219438488]) by pa-217-129-55-29.netvisao.pt (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id C8C47A870F for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:53:35 -0600 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:53:35 -0600 From: "Musicals L. 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dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------1678DC576BDFAD8-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 07:18:08 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8ced-00024N-UY for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:18:08 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8ceb-00023h-7M for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:18:05 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8ccB-0001b4-3a for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:15:44 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8cc8-0001ap-94 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:15:33 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8cgZ-0006S1-J3 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:20:07 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F8cc7-0001Lk-00 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:15:31 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:15:31 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:15:31 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5 X-Apparently-From: 83.206.23.74 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060213-131531.sv20998.94100@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Basic anti-spam X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:18:06 -0000 I've hacked a quick anti-spam for anonymous tracker comments based on http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MoreAboutCodes If there's a problem we'll see if we need something more complicated. Next step is ability to hide existing spam and a turing test for new registrations. I do not have the time to implement this at the moment, so feel free to contribute a patch to project Savane :) Update: more precision about those tasks at: https://gna.org/task/index.php?func=detailitem&item_id=2918 https://gna.org/task/?func=detailitem&item_id=2876 _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 07:19:39 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8cg7-0002XP-2A for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:19:39 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8cg2-0002V9-5d for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:19:34 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8cfy-0002Tz-T0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:19:32 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8cfy-0002Ti-C4 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:19:30 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8ckP-0006jE-M5 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:24:05 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F8cfx-0001TX-00 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:19:29 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:19:29 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:19:29 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5 X-Apparently-From: 83.206.23.74 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060213-131929.sv20998.76134@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Policy on Licenses for Manuals X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:19:36 -0000 An important aspect Savannah's rules is the practice of verifying all licenses for consistency--software licenses must be compatible with GNU GPL (version-2-or-later), so that Savannah projects, and all GNU projects, can easily build upon each other's code. We have now recognized that the similar issue for documentation licenses needs to be addressed, and we have decided to address it in a similar fashion. Specifically, our policy is now that new projects, and new manuals, should be released under a license compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License (current-version-or-later). Disjunctive dual licenses which include this as one option are compatible. This policy applies to manuals written in Texinfo, and documentation which ought to be improved into such manuals. Informal materials, FAQs, and so on can be under a license compatible with either the GNU GPL or the GFDL (or both). Existing manuals of existing non-GNU packages which are currently licensed under GPL-2-or-later can remain on Savannah with their current licenses, though we would like to change them if possible. However, existing manuals with other GFDL-incompatible licenses represent bigger problems, that we need to solve sooner or later, so we will be contacting the developers of these packages by and by. In addition, it is vital for all documentation files to have clear statements of their licenses. We have just discovered that some projects have not done this, and we will be contacting those projects to address the problem. (updated 20060213 with clarifications) _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 08:11:32 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dTk-0005pt-8t for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:10:56 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dSI-0005FN-1G for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:09:26 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dRZ-0004jT-QY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:08:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dRU-0004eV-U4 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:08:37 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8dVw-0002sZ-A2 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:13:12 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F8dRU-0004RH-00 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:08:36 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:08:36 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:08:36 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5 X-Apparently-From: 83.206.23.74 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060213-140836.sv20998.51313@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Policy on Licenses for Manuals X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:10:53 -0000 An important aspect Savannah's rules is the practice of verifying all licenses for consistency--software licenses must be compatible with GNU GPL (version-2-or-later), so that Savannah projects, and all GNU projects, can easily build upon each other's code. We have now recognized that the similar issue for documentation licenses needs to be addressed, and we have decided to address it in a similar fashion. Specifically, our policy is now that new projects, and new manuals, should be released under a license compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License (current-version-or-later). Disjunctive dual licenses which include this as one option are compatible. This policy applies to manuals written in Texinfo, and documentation which ought to be improved into such manuals. Informal materials, FAQs, and so on can be under a license compatible with either the GNU GPL or the GFDL (or both). Existing manuals of existing non-GNU packages which are currently licensed under GPL-2-or-later can remain on Savannah with their current licenses, though we would like to change them if possible. However, existing manuals with other GFDL-incompatible licenses represent bigger problems, that we need to solve sooner or later, so we will be contacting the developers of these packages by and by. In addition, it is vital for all documentation files to have clear statements of their licenses. We have just discovered that some projects have not done this, and we will be contacting those projects to address the problem. (initial post on 20060211 - updated 20060213 with clarifications) Comments are welcome at savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org. _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 08:11:59 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dRn-0004tL-9W for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:08:56 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dRU-0004dL-4E for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:08:36 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dQf-00047o-NL for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:07:46 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8dQB-0003j4-UX for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:07:16 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8dUd-0002lE-Am for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:11:51 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F8dQB-0004O2-00 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:07:15 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:07:15 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:07:15 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5 X-Apparently-From: 83.206.23.74 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060213-140715.sv20998.33007@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Policy on Licenses for Manuals X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:08:50 -0000 An important aspect Savannah's rules is the practice of verifying all licenses for consistency--software licenses must be compatible with GNU GPL (version-2-or-later), so that Savannah projects, and all GNU projects, can easily build upon each other's code. We have now recognized that the similar issue for documentation licenses needs to be addressed, and we have decided to address it in a similar fashion. Specifically, our policy is now that new projects, and new manuals, should be released under a license compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License (current-version-or-later). Disjunctive dual licenses which include this as one option are compatible. This policy applies to manuals written in Texinfo, and documentation which ought to be improved into such manuals. Informal materials, FAQs, and so on can be under a license compatible with either the GNU GPL or the GFDL (or both). Existing manuals of existing non-GNU packages which are currently licensed under GPL-2-or-later can remain on Savannah with their current licenses, though we would like to change them if possible. However, existing manuals with other GFDL-incompatible licenses represent bigger problems, that we need to solve sooner or later, so we will be contacting the developers of these packages by and by. In addition, it is vital for all documentation files to have clear statements of their licenses. We have just discovered that some projects have not done this, and we will be contacting those projects to address the problem. 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dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------2A5AC247EB87261-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 13:38:14 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8iaU-0004JU-0o for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:38:14 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8iaR-0004I9-IW for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:38:11 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8iaO-0004H5-VN for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:38:10 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8iaO-0004H1-MH for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:38:08 -0500 Received: from [82.138.229.70] (helo=mailin.phonecoop.coop) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8iet-0004P5-Pn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:42:47 -0500 Received: from [213.55.30.50] (port=4163 helo=pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk ident=ENoPulsar) by mailin.phonecoop.coop with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1F8iaG-000160-Kn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:38:00 +0000 Received: from mjr by pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F8iaF-0006Gl-00 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:37:59 +0000 References: <20060210-234105.sv20998.89331@savannah.gnu.org> <20060212123700.GC1407@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:37:00 +0100 <20060212123700.GC1407@localhost.localdomain> Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Licenses clarification To: Message-Id: From: MJ Ray Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:37:59 +0000 X-Antivirus-Scanned: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:38:12 -0000 Sylvain Beucler > Afaics dual-licensing is a way to avoid the kind of problems you > mentioned (for your specific examples I think there are others). Dual-licensing would not avoid these kind of problems, because users could choose which licence to use and could pick FDL, which allows licensees to attach unremovable chapters. See http://www.mysql.de/www/company/legal/licensing/faq.html for MySQL AB's description of it, or http://www.lamsfoundation.org/faq/04.html for an explanation from part of Macquarie University, Australia. > Note that it's not about accepting the GFDL as a license, > since we already do so. Understood. My request is that you do not require licensors to use the FDL, as you don't at present. Sincerely, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 15:15:40 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8k6m-0004ET-80 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:40 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8k6j-0004AI-NN for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:37 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8k6i-00048R-5V for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:36 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8k6h-00048H-IK for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:35 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8kBA-0004xk-5P; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:20:12 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F8k6u-0004V4-Nb; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:48 -0500 From: "Joshua Ginsberg via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #274391 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: jag@fsf.org To: beuc@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:15:48 -0500 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, bob@proulx.com, karl@freefriends.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [gnu.org #274391] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:15:38 -0000 It is our intention to upgrade to mailman 2.1.7 upon completion of the project, which has the mass discard feature. When we do the upgrade, we will trove the archives and held message queues and push the messages through a spam control system. Items tagged as spam will be put into a quarantine for list administrators to sift through, and the remainder will be discarded. -jag > [beuc - Thu Feb 09 17:32:13 2006]: > > Sysadmin, > > Karl and I have had a look at the Mailman held messages. > > We have a growing list of around 120,000 messages, all in the same > directory. > > I state it, so you keep that in mind for the upcoming mail system. For > example, Karl mentioned a Mailman feature to clean-up old requests, > but nor Sarge not Fedora 4 include it yet. > > What's your point on this? Do you already have something in mind to > cope with all those held messages? Do you think this currently > significantly impact performances? > > > More details now - a direct reply to Karl :) > > On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 01:19:55PM -0600, Karl Berry wrote: > > On the other hand, just rm'ing the files didn't work well either; then > > the msgs were still visible in the pending queue, albeit with some > > information missing. However, doing that will at least clean up the > > directory, so maybe it is the way to go for now. > > I did so for removed mailing lists (~500 msgs), and also removed held > messages under an old format (files in *.txt) back from 2002 (~6000 > msgs). More precisions in the ChangeLog. > > > I also noticed that you see the "pending queue [...] with some > information missing" only once. After that, Mailman regenerates > request.pck; so a little curl > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/admindb/listname -F adminpw=***** per > list would clean the list of messages. > > Instead of (or in addition to) setting up a clean-up cron-job (I hope > the next mailsystem will use that recent version of Maiman), an > alternative would be to cope with the "top-ten", which accounts for > around around 50% of all messages: > > 1017 adhoc > 1099 alcovebook-dev > 1116 fsfe-portugal > 1162 dmca-activists > 1259 gnump3d-devel > 1311 bug-gnu-chess > 1634 a2ps > 2426 info-gnu-fortran > 2484 cons-discuss > 11556 bug-vcdimager > 29634 info-cvs > > > Last 6 months of all held messages represent more than half of all > held messages actually, so maybe it's not as useful as I though wrt > performances - we always get thousands of held messages at once, > unless we clean messages earlier than after 6 months. > > > -- Joshua Ginsberg Free Software Foundation - Senior Systems Administrator From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 16:52:29 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8lcS-0001Wl-Fi for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:52:28 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8lcP-0001Th-Gb for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:52:25 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8lcL-0001Qe-AS for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:52:23 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8lcF-0001QA-1z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:52:19 -0500 Received: from [212.247.154.173] (helo=swip.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8lgl-0004NF-EB for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:56:55 -0500 X-T2-Posting-ID: VTTU9pcSNxKjR0bVYLFuiA== X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [81.211.186.227] (HELO neverland) by mailfe06.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.2) with ESMTPS id 120971885 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:52:09 +0100 Received: from frx by neverland with local (Exim 4.50) id 1F8lc0-0000a0-Ap for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:52:00 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:47:27 +0100 From: Francesco Poli To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Message-Id: <20060213224727.06711826.frx@firenze.linux.it> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Mon__13_Feb_2006_22_47_27_+0100_BMhTA6JBMc0EuY0m" Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Licenses for documentation in Savannah projects X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:52:26 -0000 --Signature=_Mon__13_Feb_2006_22_47_27_+0100_BMhTA6JBMc0EuY0m Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am a Savannah user and free software supporter. I was really disappointed to read the following at http://savannah.gnu.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=3D4303 | we plan to ask new projects to release documentation under a license | compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License. | As always, it is perfectly acceptable to dual-license the work under | the GFDL and another license, if needed. The GFDL is a *bad* license: * it fails to be a real copyleft license, as it allows adding unmodifiable and unremovable stuff (Invariant Sections, Front/Back-Cover Texts, Dedications, ...) * it includes a far too broad anti-DRM clause which can be interpreted as forbidding even the most common encryption and access control practices * it contains an ill-phrased definition of Transparent Format where technical details, rather than intents, are used to determine what qualifies as Transparent, thus causing practical problems whenever a document includes parts that don't fit the scenarios the definition refers to * it's overly long and complicated, poses significant burden on redistributors and modifiers * it's incompatible with the GNU GPL v2 in both ways (unless a separate permission is obtained from every and each copyright holder, nobody else can copy and paste material between a GPL'd program and its GFDL'd manual) The GFDL is not a license suitable for releasing free software and causes significant practical inconvenience. Since I strongly believe that documentation is as important as programs and that both deserve to grant their users the same freedoms, I definitely recommend *against* adopting the GFDL for any work. It's already awkward and embarassing that the FSF promotes such a non-free license. Forcing Savannah users to adopt it as a condition for having their projects hosted would be really disappointing and unbelievable: we would reach a point at which a project is rejected by Savannah for being entirely under the GNU GPL, that is to say, for being Free! :-( --=20 :-( This Universe is buggy! Where's the Creator's BTS? ;-) ...................................................................... Francesco Poli GnuPG Key ID =3D DD6DFCF4 Key fingerprint =3D C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 --Signature=_Mon__13_Feb_2006_22_47_27_+0100_BMhTA6JBMc0EuY0m Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD8P51ePQnm91t/PQRAuQJAJ4lElJvfFoj79QhSKDB9sjjrQAbkACgmvqg 9PZTOowuFqv9PjCxofjNFF8= =H/j2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Mon__13_Feb_2006_22_47_27_+0100_BMhTA6JBMc0EuY0m-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 17:17:45 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8m0v-0006aV-Rf for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8m0u-0006a9-IF for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:44 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8m0t-0006Yt-2m for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:44 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8m0t-0006Yq-04 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:43 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8m5N-0006cL-41; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:22:21 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F8m16-00050U-N9; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:56 -0500 From: "Joshua Ginsberg via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #274369 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: jag@fsf.org To: beuc@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:17:56 -0500 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:17:44 -0000 As always, given the gross volume of mail we receive, full and complete mail headers are necessary to be able to do any real mail debugging. Please see if you can obtain these headers. -jag > [beuc - Thu Feb 09 14:16:40 2006]: > > Hi, > > You can please have a look at this item: > https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=105131 > > It's related to the mail system. > > Maybe you can tell Greb Chicares whether the issues is from our end or > not. > > > -- Joshua Ginsberg Free Software Foundation - Senior Systems Administrator From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 18:26:44 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5g-0005JH-PD for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:44 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5f-0005HL-4x for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:43 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5d-0005Gv-2d for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5c-0005Go-VJ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:41 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8nAA-0003ov-P9 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:31:23 -0500 Received: (qmail 7717 invoked by uid 503); 13 Feb 2006 23:26:55 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 13 Feb 2006 23:26:55 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2006 23:26:55 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2006 23:26:40 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2006 23:26:38 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2006 23:26:38 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2006 23:26:38 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F8n5L-00030H-Ph; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:26:23 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:26:23 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Joshua Ginsberg via RT Message-ID: <20060213232622.GA11260@localhost.localdomain> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500112 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:26:43 -0000 You didn't check the URL :/ On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 05:17:56PM -0500, Joshua Ginsberg via RT wrote: > As always, given the gross volume of mail we receive, full and complete > mail headers are necessary to be able to do any real mail debugging. > Please see if you can obtain these headers. > > -jag > > > [beuc - Thu Feb 09 14:16:40 2006]: > > > > Hi, > > > > You can please have a look at this item: > > https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=105131 > > > > It's related to the mail system. > > > > Maybe you can tell Greb Chicares whether the issues is from our end or > > not. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 13 18:26:45 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5g-0005Jh-Vb for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5f-0005HN-5r for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:43 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5e-0005H3-KE for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8n5e-0005H0-Cr for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8nAC-0003pQ-F1 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:31:24 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F8n5w-0005Gm-Di for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:27:00 -0500 From: "Sylvain Beucler via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #274369 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: beuc@gnu.org Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:27:00 -0500 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:26:43 -0000 You didn't check the URL :/ On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 05:17:56PM -0500, Joshua Ginsberg via RT wrote: > As always, given the gross volume of mail we receive, full and complete > mail headers are necessary to be able to do any real mail debugging. > Please see if you can obtain these headers. > > -jag > > > [beuc - Thu Feb 09 14:16:40 2006]: > > > > Hi, > > > > You can please have a look at this item: > > https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=105131 > > > > It's related to the mail system. > > > > Maybe you can tell Greb Chicares whether the issues is from our end or > > not. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 07:33:22 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F8z4i-0006V6-6Z for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:14:32 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8z2m-0005lN-7I for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:12:32 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F8z2D-0005aW-NI for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:11:59 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F8yr1-0003wP-I0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:00:25 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F8yvf-0002u9-OG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:05:12 -0500 Received: from [207.255.240.52] (helo=-1208354344) by mx20.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F8yqw-0003xb-Fn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:00:18 -0500 Received: from golzen.com (-1208637024 [-1208702472]) by granlimon.com (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id 0CE61378A5 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:47:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:47:30 -0600 From: "Deepening I. 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C63187.6CA90500-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 10:43:20 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F92HM-0006Dx-Pr for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:39:49 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F920M-0001sF-K1 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:22:16 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F91j9-0005iT-9l for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:05:23 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F91hD-0004ty-Mc for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:02:28 -0500 Received: from [82.138.229.70] (helo=mailin.phonecoop.coop) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F91lu-0000A0-5Z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:07:18 -0500 Received: from [213.55.30.50] (port=1367 helo=pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk ident=ENoPulsar) by mailin.phonecoop.coop with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1F91h4-0004Gb-Pm for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:02:19 +0000 Received: from mjr by pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F91h3-0007hu-00 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:02:17 +0000 To: In-Reply-To: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-Id: From: MJ Ray Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:02:17 +0000 X-Antivirus-Scanned: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:39:45 -0000 Sylvain wrote: > I don't think such a section would be acceptable. What you can add as > an invariant section is pretty limited and can't be anything one want. >From the FDL: A "Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of the Document that deals exclusively with the relationship of the publishers or authors of the Document to the Document's overall subject (or to related matters) and contains nothing that could fall directly within that overall subject. (Thus, if the Document is in part a textbook of mathematics, a Secondary Section may not explain any mathematics.) The relationship could be a matter of historical connection with the subject or with related matters, or of legal, commercial, philosophical, ethical or political position regarding them. The "Invariant Sections" are certain Secondary Sections whose titles are designated, as being those of Invariant Sections, [...] These restrictions on content seem trivial and easy to evade. As long as the publishers or authors can relate their denial of climate change to the overall subject, maybe by historical connection, philosophy, ethics or politics, it looks fine for them to include it as invariant. For GNU statistical software for example, this seems very easy to do. Imagine starting the appendix "I first started to use this software after someone used it to illustrate the spurious climate change relationship, which is wrong because..." You could probably do something similar for almost any topic. Please can you explain why that would not be allowed? Thanks, -- MJR/slef From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 11:02:47 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F92bf-0004s8-Cd for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:00:48 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F92TG-00022l-4w for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:52:07 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F92PU-0000GQ-F6 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:49:19 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F92Kh-0006vn-LS for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:43:16 -0500 Received: from [24.29.109.6] (helo=ms-smtp-02.rdc-nyc.rr.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F92PO-0004pt-B9 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:48:06 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (cpe-69-206-241-211.nj.res.rr.com [69.206.241.211]) by ms-smtp-02.rdc-nyc.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k1EFaxsh020510 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:37:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:42:48 -0500 From: "Benjamin L. Shi" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Unix Admin Position? X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:00:43 -0000 Hi, I am very interested to help. For the past 8+ years, i have been managing linux/solaris systems and will like to be invovled more in the gnu/opensrc community. What is the requirement? Since i do have full time job, there is a limited number of hours i can dedicate. Please let me know. Thanks. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 13:45:42 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F95AL-0005Mb-Le for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:44:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F957z-0003h1-Kz for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:42:20 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F956V-0002gP-UU for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:40:49 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F955E-0001yz-5Z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:39:29 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F959u-0002l5-02; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:44:18 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F955U-0001Rr-U6; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:39:44 -0500 From: "Joshua Ginsberg via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #274369 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: jag@fsf.org To: beuc@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:39:44 -0500 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:44:32 -0000 > You didn't check the URL :/ Yes I did... checking again... Oh... didn't realize how far down I had to scroll to see the continuing discussion... :-/ I would have guessed that the discussion would all take place in one part of the page, not two separate parts... Looking now... It all runs with the same timestamp and msg id's until it gets handed off to cox's mailservers.... looking at the maillogs... Cox's mail servers are not following SMTP... they're not providing a 220 to state that the message was accepted for delivery.... the smtp connections time out, and lists' mail server tries again... it appears they got this fixed... So this was a temporary Cox issue it seems... if this problem persists, please let me know and I'll test further... -jag -- Joshua Ginsberg Free Software Foundation - Senior Systems Administrator From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 15:22:09 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F96gb-0002Dp-AU for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:22:09 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F96gY-0002BQ-VT for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:22:07 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F96gD-00021a-HH for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:21:50 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F96gC-00020t-HP for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:21:44 -0500 Received: from [84.166.31.57] (helo=localhost) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F96kv-0003IT-C8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:26:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c631ce$52dee080$0100007f@localhost> From: "Kyle Jackson" To: Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:21:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631CE.52DEE080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] cheap oem soft shipping //orldwide X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:22:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631CE.52DEE080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1 2 Photo shop 9.0 3 XP 4 Acro bat 7 5 MX 2O04 6 Draw 12 7 Anti virus 2005 8 Server 9 10 Illustrator 11 Lst: $550.00 ur: $69.95 Sv: $480.05 ( 87%) ---------------- List: $200.00 Our: $49.95 You: $150.05 ( 75%) ---------------- V 9.0 Lis: $599.00 Or: $69.95 Sav: $529.05 ( 88%) ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631CE.52DEE080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631CE.52DEE080-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 19:25:48 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ATr-0005cH-Sj for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:25:16 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ASr-0004da-Vn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:14 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9AS1-0003wk-J7 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:23:22 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9AQn-0002sH-6g for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:22:05 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9AVZ-0007RP-Kr for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:27:01 -0500 Received: (qmail 11533 invoked by uid 503); 15 Feb 2006 00:22:20 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 15 Feb 2006 00:22:20 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:22:20 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:22:05 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:22:02 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:22:02 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:22:02 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9AQX-0000o9-HI; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:21:49 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:21:49 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: "Benjamin L. Shi" Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Unix Admin Position? Message-ID: <20060215002149.GC2757@localhost.localdomain> References: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500032 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:25:09 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 10:42:48AM -0500, Benjamin L. Shi wrote: > Hi, I am very interested to help. For the past 8+ years, i have been > managing linux/solaris systems and will like to be invovled more in the > gnu/opensrc community. What is the requirement? Since i do have full > time job, there is a limited number of hours i can dedicate. Please let > me know. Thanks for the offer. We need help to run Savannah daily, mainly review project submissions and spread the GNU philosophy, and in a less urgent extend improve the Savannah services in various way. Everybody do a bit of both. How do you think you could contribute to the project? :) Hear from you soon, -- Sylvain PS: starting with the GNU philosophy, check http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 19:29:45 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9AYB-0007XL-MK for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:29:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9AUp-0006gr-W0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:26:16 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ATB-0004sB-TR for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:34 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ASm-0004Yw-Qx for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:09 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9AXZ-0007Z9-Cx for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:29:05 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1F9AT7-0002vw-JW for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:29 -0500 From: "Sylvain Beucler via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #274369 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: beuc@gnu.org Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:29 -0500 Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:29:38 -0000 Ok, thanks a lot. -- Sylvain On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 01:39:44PM -0500, Joshua Ginsberg via RT wrote: > > You didn't check the URL :/ > > Yes I did... checking again... > > Oh... didn't realize how far down I had to scroll to see the continuing > discussion... :-/ I would have guessed that the discussion would all > take place in one part of the page, not two separate parts... Looking now... > > It all runs with the same timestamp and msg id's until it gets handed > off to cox's mailservers.... looking at the maillogs... Cox's mail > servers are not following SMTP... they're not providing a 220 to state > that the message was accepted for delivery.... the smtp connections time > out, and lists' mail server tries again... it appears they got this fixed... > > So this was a temporary Cox issue it seems... if this problem persists, > please let me know and I'll test further... From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 19:32:00 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Aa0-0000OE-IV for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:31:36 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9AYQ-0007iW-5Q for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:29:58 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ATA-0004qD-Ty for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:34 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9ASk-0004YW-SI for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:07 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9AXX-0007Yx-8z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:29:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 15291 invoked by uid 503); 15 Feb 2006 00:24:21 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 15 Feb 2006 00:24:21 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:24:21 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:24:07 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:24:04 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:24:04 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 00:24:04 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9ASV-0000od-GF; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:23:51 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:23:51 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Joshua Ginsberg via RT Message-ID: <20060215002351.GA3124@localhost.localdomain> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500005 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: [gnu.org #274369] Mail sent several times X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:31:26 -0000 Ok, thanks a lot. -- Sylvain On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 01:39:44PM -0500, Joshua Ginsberg via RT wrote: > > You didn't check the URL :/ > > Yes I did... checking again... > > Oh... didn't realize how far down I had to scroll to see the continuing > discussion... :-/ I would have guessed that the discussion would all > take place in one part of the page, not two separate parts... Looking now... > > It all runs with the same timestamp and msg id's until it gets handed > off to cox's mailservers.... looking at the maillogs... Cox's mail > servers are not following SMTP... they're not providing a 220 to state > that the message was accepted for delivery.... the smtp connections time > out, and lists' mail server tries again... it appears they got this fixed... > > So this was a temporary Cox issue it seems... if this problem persists, > please let me know and I'll test further... From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 20:57:33 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9BvA-0002ou-Vd for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:57:33 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Bv9-0002mO-Aw for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:57:31 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Bv7-0002ji-4m for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:57:30 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9BsZ-0007Wq-Vh for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:54:52 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9BxN-00066o-5H for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:59:49 -0500 Received: (qmail 5709 invoked by uid 503); 15 Feb 2006 01:55:06 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 15 Feb 2006 01:55:06 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 01:55:06 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 01:54:52 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 01:54:46 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 01:54:46 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 01:54:46 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9Bs6-0000rx-T0; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:54:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:54:22 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Sanjoy Mahajan Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-ID: <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500105 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, mjr@phonecoop.coop, frx@firenze.linux.it X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:57:32 -0000 MJ, Sanjoy, Francesco, IMHO a secondary section cannot be that easily by-passed, but indeed I'm not a lawyer. Also don't confuse preventing addition of 'global warming' statements in derivates versions and accepting such changes in a project manual. I think the maintainer of a project is constantly faced to situations where a person want him to switch licenses in order to accept his contributions, and the maintainer does not _have_ to accept such contribution, whatever license / invariant section is involved (for example rejecting MPL-only code in the Mozilla project). Similarly we would like Texinfo documents at Savannah to be compatible with the GNU manuals. This is something we can't achieve if we accept GNU GPL manuals. We do not impose a particular license, just compatibility, and we'd rather have people release such manuals under _at least_ the GFDL rather than not being able to reuse them at all. We also require the GFDL'd documents to be version 1.2 or any later version so that any issue that can be found in the current version of this license will be fixed with the next one. In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to receive comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. DRM criticism about the GNU GPLv3 draft would probably also be useful in this aim. This is not about accepting a non-free license (the GFDL is a free documentation license), and this is not about rejecting free software at Savannah (we already do so by rejecting ASL'd software - until GNU GPLv3 is out, that is :)). Incidentally a dozen of existing Savannah projects Texinfo manuals are under the GNU GPL and hence affected by this. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 14 22:16:36 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9D9A-0002kf-48 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:16:04 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9D96-0002gD-M4 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:16:00 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9D94-0002aJ-2u for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:15:58 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9D92-0002YZ-Pm for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:15:56 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9DDr-0003XY-3A for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:20:55 -0500 Received: from exal by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1F9D92-0008Pt-A7; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:15:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:15:56 -0500 From: Exal de Jesus Garcia Carrillo To: "Benjamin L. Shi" Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Unix Admin Position? Message-ID: <20060215031556.GD27454@gnu.org> References: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a2FkP9tdjPU2nyhF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> Openpgp: url=http://pgp.mit.edu/ X-Editor: vim http://www.vim.org/ X-Mailer: mutt http://www.mutt.org/ X-Accept-Language: es, en X-Location: Mexico X-Antiabuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it wit any abuse report X-OB-Toomany: x-antiabuse 5 X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux Organization: GNU Project User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 03:16:03 -0000 --a2FkP9tdjPU2nyhF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 de Feb de 06, a las 10:42 -0500, Benjamin L. Shi wrote: > Hi, I am very interested to help. For the past 8+ years, i have been=20 > managing linux/solaris systems and will like to be invovled more in the= =20 > gnu/opensrc community. What is the requirement? Since i do have full=20 > time job, there is a limited number of hours i can dedicate. Please let= =20 > me know. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 >=20 >=20 May be you want will /j #savannah on freenode.net --=20 Exal de Jes=FAs Garc=EDa Carrillo http://www.gnu.org --a2FkP9tdjPU2nyhF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD8pzsoZmxoVJRtGIRAuqyAJ9pu6gghYzaKT0XTAfx1wu8k+yWtACeLzpd kwGVykSROugZqN8y2HEpCAA= =zsDb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a2FkP9tdjPU2nyhF-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 04:28:10 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9IxF-0006sI-QF for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:28:09 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9IxE-0006rJ-Ck for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:28:08 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9IxC-0006pW-Fq for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:28:07 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9IxC-0006pQ-AJ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:28:06 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9J24-0005hF-9D for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:33:08 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F9IxB-0006u6-00 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:28:05 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:28:05 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:28:05 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/20051111 Firefox/1.5 X-Apparently-From: 82.127.10.129 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060215-102805.sv20998.68808@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Prepare to update your license notices! X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:28:08 -0000 Because of the new address, the FSF is releasing a new version of the GPL - it's not version 3 yet, it's actually the third revision of version 2. Like the previous revision, it will differ only in that it will contain FSF's new address. This version will be available and effective on Friday, April 29, 2005. When you next get the chance, please go through your source code and replace the old copy of the GPL with the new version. Also, old notices should be replaced with new ones. The following shell command will help you do this in a sloppy way. Its results should be carefully checked - it will not work, among others, if the address spans multiple lines: find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i -e 's/59 Temple Place - Suite 330/51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor/;s/02111-1307/02110-1301/;' The FSF will also be releasing new revisions of the LGPL and the FDL. The GPL HOWTO will then provide updated information: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 05:09:58 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Jbg-0005aJ-Iv for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:09:57 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Jbd-0005Z4-DY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:09:53 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Jba-0005YJ-Az for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:09:52 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9JCi-0001eQ-Pb for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:44:08 -0500 Received: from [66.249.92.193] (helo=uproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9JHa-0007GE-Nx for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:49:10 -0500 Received: by uproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id u2so837066uge for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:44:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=fjYvRooc7nuh8t8BAbNud1M5ebMU2gtG5LE4sE8eD3gA+2qbU89ukmQ0+KqEJ5jEpN4UwoFJXIZ9JKZhFYC9uomzkxXJ3qF0UMv580uujmS7FoTZEToHq0AMEUN7uzE8mgLLNyE4Z3OYoilgehANKheS9wbNmzgOX1HBySuYQCE= Received: by 10.67.24.3 with SMTP id b3mr326607ugj; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.245.9 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:44:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <74a672470602150144m7d8c7864q468c4850f40c545f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:44:06 +0100 From: "tizzef @ gmail" To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1782_19823736.1139996646385" Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] News X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:09:54 -0000 ------=_Part_1782_19823736.1139996646385 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi there, I don't give much more news because I spend my dedicated time to savannah t= o read GNU documentation. I think that by the end of the week I could be ready to hang up a project. Regards. -- tizzef ------=_Part_1782_19823736.1139996646385 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi there,
 
I don't give much more news because I spend my dedicated time to savan= nah to read GNU documentation.
I think that by the end of the week I could be ready to hang up a proj= ect.
 
Regards.

--
tizzef
------=_Part_1782_19823736.1139996646385-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 05:14:10 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9JCj-0001eh-3u for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:44:09 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9JBG-0008PF-Ac for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:42:38 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9JA2-0007AF-3d for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:41:23 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9J8S-0005uX-KG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:39:44 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9JDG-0006tY-MR for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:44:46 -0500 Received: (qmail 7978 invoked by uid 503); 15 Feb 2006 09:39:44 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 15 Feb 2006 09:39:44 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail144.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 09:39:44 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 09:39:03 -0000 Received: from mail144.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.144) by mail144.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 09:39:01 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 09:39:01 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2006 09:39:01 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9J83-0003O6-K0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:39:19 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:39:19 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Prepare to update your license notices! Message-ID: <20060215093919.GA12800@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060215-102805.sv20998.68808@savannah.gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060215-102805.sv20998.68808@savannah.gnu.org> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:04 -0000 This notification happened because I fixed the script and then had the item published again in the news archives. On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:28:05AM +0100, Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > Because of the new address, the FSF is releasing a new version of the GPL - > it's not version 3 yet, it's actually the third revision of version 2. Like > the previous revision, it will differ only in that it will contain FSF's new > address. This version will be available and effective on Friday, April 29, > 2005. > > When you next get the chance, please go through your source code and replace > the old copy of the GPL with the new version. > > Also, old notices should be replaced with new ones. The following shell > command will help you do this in a sloppy way. Its results should be > carefully checked - it will not work, among others, if the address spans > multiple lines: > > find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i -e 's/59 Temple Place - Suite 330/51 > Franklin Street, Fifth Floor/;s/02111-1307/02110-1301/;' > > The FSF will also be releasing new revisions of the LGPL and the FDL. > > The GPL HOWTO will then provide updated information: > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 07:31:02 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9LlN-0005rb-AC for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:28:05 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9LTz-0000Wf-4D for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:10:07 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9LM2-0007B9-8C for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:04:10 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9LHf-0006Dr-8i for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:57:23 -0500 Received: from [82.138.229.70] (helo=mailin.phonecoop.coop) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9LMP-0000vG-St; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:02:18 -0500 Received: from [213.55.30.50] (port=2544 helo=pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk ident=ENoPulsar) by mailin.phonecoop.coop with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1F9LHL-00024H-QH; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:57:04 +0000 Received: from mjr by pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F9LHH-0000gH-00; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:56:59 +0000 To: , , , , , Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:54:22 +0100 <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: From: MJ Ray Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:56:59 +0000 X-Antivirus-Scanned: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Cc: X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:27:58 -0000 Sylvain Beucler Thank you for your reply. I am confused by the following: > IMHO a secondary section cannot be that easily by-passed, but indeed > I'm not a lawyer. Please would you explain how you feel the FDL prevents a secondary section that denies climate change? If you are not lawyerly, is there one on savannah-hackers? Many GNU manuals have misapplied FDL so far, including things such as designating the licence as an invariant section (thereby disabling the upgrade clause) or designating technical sections as invariant (GDB). > Also don't confuse preventing addition of 'global > warming' statements in derivates versions and accepting such changes > in a project manual. I'm not aware that any of us are doing that. It is little comfort that we are not forced to accept lies into our source if someone makes a heavily-enhanced version of our work expressing views that odious, or worse (National Front?). We cannot compete with that version on the same terms unless we repeat their lies. > Similarly we would like Texinfo documents at Savannah to be compatible > with the GNU manuals. This is something we can't achieve if we accept > GNU GPL manuals. We do not impose a particular license, just > compatibility, and we'd rather have people release such manuals under > _at least_ the GFDL rather than not being able to reuse them at > all. We also require the GFDL'd documents to be version 1.2 or any > later version so that any issue that can be found in the current > version of this license will be fixed with the next one. This looks like a bug in GNU, not in free software itself. The obvious solution would seem to be to relicense the GNU manuals under the GPL, but I assume that's not on offer yet. A work under the FDL is incompatible with any free software licence because it is an adware licence. If you seek just compatibility, please select a free software licence that is compatible with the FDL (so, non-copyleft) and use that in the recommendation or requirement. However, not all licences are as good as the GPL when it comes to adaptability to non-program software and some authors strongly prefer copyleft. > In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns > about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to receive > comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. Most of these comments have been made for over 5 years now! I have been told that there is a new draft of the FDL ready for publication. Please publish it, so we can comment topically. > DRM criticism about > the GNU GPLv3 draft would probably also be useful in this aim. The GPLv3 process is rather closed and difficult to access, so I cannot comment at present. I am discussing this with its webmasters, but I am frustrated that you direct me to a process that I cannot access myself. > This is not about accepting a non-free license (the GFDL is a free > documentation license), and this is not about rejecting free software > at Savannah (we already do so by rejecting ASL'd software - until GNU > GPLv3 is out, that is :)). The FDL is not a free software licence and there is no agreed meaning of "free documentation". Savannah is a project of the Free Software Foundation. Please support free software. The best way is to recommend projects to be 100% free software, and not require FDL use. Best wishes, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 10:49:23 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9OuB-0007DM-2H for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:49:23 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Oqo-0004zz-Ia for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:45:56 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Omh-0003LT-H6 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:41:41 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9OjQ-0001XK-Hi for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:38:17 -0500 Received: from [66.33.216.24] (helo=smarty.dreamhost.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9OoE-0007mh-Aa; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:43:14 -0500 Received: from rosecrans.dreamhost.com (rosecrans.dreamhost.com [64.111.108.15]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C7AEE260; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from shepard (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosecrans.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5977D1C11C; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:38:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL From: David Turner To: MJ Ray In-Reply-To: References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:41:26 -0500 Message-Id: <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sanjoy@mrao.cam.ac.uk, frx@firenze.linux.it, savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:49:19 -0000 On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 11:56 +0000, MJ Ray wrote: > If you are not lawyerly, is there one on savannah-hackers? > Many GNU manuals have misapplied FDL so far, including things > such as designating the licence as an invariant section (thereby > disabling the upgrade clause) or designating technical sections > as invariant (GDB). Please report specific usage bugs to the maintainers of those programs. The GDB documentation's current notice says: Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.1 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with the Invariant Sections being ``Free Software'' and ``Free Software Needs Free Documentation'', with the Front-Cover Texts being ``A GNU Manual,'' and with the Back-Cover Texts as in (a) below. Neither of these are technical. > > Also don't confuse preventing addition of 'global > > warming' statements in derivates versions and accepting such changes > > in a project manual. > > I'm not aware that any of us are doing that. It is little comfort > that we are not forced to accept lies into our source if someone > makes a heavily-enhanced version of our work expressing views > that odious, or worse (National Front?). We cannot compete > with that version on the same terms unless we repeat their lies. I'm not going to get into a long discussion about the merits of Invariant Sections here. But I will note that so far, I know of no cases where anyone has contributed something useful along with a pernitious invariant section. > > In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns > > about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to receive > > comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. > > Most of these comments have been made for over 5 years now! > I have been told that there is a new draft of the FDL ready > for publication. Please publish it, so we can comment topically. We're not prepared to release a new draft of the FDL in the middle of the GPLv3 process. There are a few reasons for this: 1. We have limited staff resources. 2. Some text from the GPL may be carried over into the FDL. > > DRM criticism about > > the GNU GPLv3 draft would probably also be useful in this aim. > > The GPLv3 process is rather closed and difficult to access, > so I cannot comment at present. I am discussing this with its > webmasters, but I am frustrated that you direct me to a process > that I cannot access myself. Anyone who can send an email can comment. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 11:50:16 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Pnz-00035Q-Oj for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:47:03 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Pmv-0001tX-1h for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:45:57 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Pkg-00083S-7v for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:43:39 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Pj2-00068G-4K for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:41:56 -0500 Received: from [82.138.229.70] (helo=mailin.phonecoop.coop) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9Pnr-00060B-54; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:46:55 -0500 Received: from [213.55.30.50] (port=2818 helo=pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk ident=ENoPulsar) by mailin.phonecoop.coop with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1F9Pis-00056x-L6; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:47 +0000 Received: from mjr by pipe.localnet.towers.org.uk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1F9Pir-00012m-00; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:45 +0000 References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:41:26 -0500 <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL To: , , , , Message-Id: From: MJ Ray Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:45 +0000 X-Antivirus-Scanned: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Cc: X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:47:01 -0000 David Turner > Please report specific usage bugs to the maintainers of those programs. I will not support use of the FDL until it is repaired. > The GDB documentation's current notice says: Yes, it was fixed after it was brought to RMS's attention. GDB 5.1 had invariant sections such as "A Sample GDB Session", "Algorithms" and "Porting GDB". It was just one example of FDL being too complicated for maintainers. You can find these examples all over the web, from all sorts of people: "with Invariant Sections being this entire text (including images)" http://www.matt.newsome.com/dnatext.html - a small random sample suggests that more people botch the FDL than apply it. It looks like many people want an FSF licence, but also want to forbid edits! > [...] But I will note that so far, I know of no > cases where anyone has contributed something useful along with a > pernitious invariant section. It depends what you call pernitious. I know there are FDL'd works where an author has added scripture as an invariant section and I'm sure it won't be long before extreme politics appear. [...] > > The GPLv3 process is rather closed and difficult to access, > > so I cannot comment at present. I am discussing this with its > > webmasters, but I am frustrated that you direct me to a process > > that I cannot access myself. > > Anyone who can send an email can comment. Well, the email interface description says that commenters must already be registered with the web site, are limited to commenting on sections of the draft text and my bad experience with it so far suggests that could be true. Best wishes, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 12:07:24 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9PyJ-000686-3z for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:57:43 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9PyD-00064Z-Fx for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:57:37 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Py8-00060s-7Q for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:57:36 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Py6-000601-UT for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:57:31 -0500 Received: from [82.236.95.248] (helo=-1208935296) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9Q31-0007Tt-Go for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:02:36 -0500 Received: from gmthailand.com (-1208884328 [-1208639352]) by cro34-3-82-236-95-248.fbx.proxad.net (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id 124E39E241 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:44:48 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:44:48 -0600 From: "Prince H. 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dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------3C8923A3E32EC70-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 13:12:40 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9R8p-0002dV-O6 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:12:39 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9R8o-0002d3-DJ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:12:38 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9R8m-0002bu-OR for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:12:37 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9R8l-0002bo-9A for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:12:36 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.249] (helo=[192.168.0.249]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9RDe-0006aq-K8; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:17:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL From: David Turner To: MJ Ray In-Reply-To: References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:13:08 -0500 Message-Id: <1140027189.15071.11.camel@banks> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sanjoy@mrao.cam.ac.uk, frx@firenze.linux.it, savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:38 -0000 On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 16:41 +0000, MJ Ray wrote: > David Turner > > Please report specific usage bugs to the maintainers of those programs. > > I will not support use of the FDL until it is repaired. We can't fix bugs unless they're reported. > > The GDB documentation's current notice says: > > Yes, it was fixed after it was brought to RMS's attention. > GDB 5.1 had invariant sections such as "A Sample GDB Session", > "Algorithms" and "Porting GDB". It was just one example of > FDL being too complicated for maintainers. > > You can find these examples all over the web, from all sorts > of people: "with Invariant Sections being this entire text > (including images)" http://www.matt.newsome.com/dnatext.html - > a small random sample suggests that more people botch the FDL > than apply it. It looks like many people want an FSF licence, > but also want to forbid edits! There are plenty of cases where people try to GPL binaries too. Or say, "GPL for non-commercial use." That doesn't mean the GPL and FDL are too complicated -- it means that people have poor reading comprehension skills. I'm not saying the FDL couldn't be simplified -- it could. But your real problem is probably the long list of issues Debian has, not the occasional misuse of Invariant Sections. FSF has seen that list. We're taking it under consideration as we revise the FDL. > > > The GPLv3 process is rather closed and difficult to access, > > > so I cannot comment at present. I am discussing this with its > > > webmasters, but I am frustrated that you direct me to a process > > > that I cannot access myself. > > > > Anyone who can send an email can comment. > > Well, the email interface description says that commenters > must already be registered with the web site, are limited > to commenting on sections of the draft text and my bad > experience with it so far suggests that could be true. Registering is a simple form. I don't know what the issue is here. Also, everyone, whether they use the web interface or the email interface, must choose a section of the text to comment on. There's no difference there. -- -- -David Turner GPLv3 Coordinator Free Software Foundation From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 18:12:46 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9VpF-0000GC-Mh for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:45 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9VpB-0000BU-T8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:42 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Vp9-00007w-1K for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:40 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Vp8-00006s-ER for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:38 -0500 Received: from [212.247.154.237] (helo=swip.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9Vu8-0007M5-6O for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:17:48 -0500 X-T2-Posting-ID: VTTU9pcSNxKjR0bVYLFuiA== X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [81.211.187.242] (HELO neverland) by mailfe08.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.2) with ESMTPS id 121590505 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:12:30 +0100 Received: from frx by neverland with local (Exim 4.50) id 1F9Vol-0003kH-Sl for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:12:15 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:38:51 +0100 From: Francesco Poli To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-Id: <20060215233851.2484e255.frx@firenze.linux.it> In-Reply-To: <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_38_51_+0100_NxP=OzwPdjAVHAk5" X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:12:44 -0000 --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_38_51_+0100_NxP=OzwPdjAVHAk5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:41:26 -0500 David Turner wrote: > > > In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns > > > about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to > > > receive comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. > >=20 > > Most of these comments have been made for over 5 years now! > > I have been told that there is a new draft of the FDL ready > > for publication. Please publish it, so we can comment topically. >=20 > We're not prepared to release a new draft of the FDL in the middle of > the GPLv3 process. There are a few reasons for this: >=20 > 1. We have limited staff resources. >=20 > 2. Some text from the GPL may be carried over into the FDL. So, let me understand: * you admit that a new GFDL version is necessary to address its issues * there are not enough resources to start a public comment process right now * there are enough resources to push the adoption of a *bad* license with known issues, before it gets fixed This puzzles me. Wouldn't it be wiser to fix the license *first* and only *then* ask for compatibility? --=20 :-( This Universe is buggy! Where's the Creator's BTS? ;-) ...................................................................... Francesco Poli GnuPG Key ID =3D DD6DFCF4 Key fingerprint =3D C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_38_51_+0100_NxP=OzwPdjAVHAk5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD862AePQnm91t/PQRAvgdAJ4yeJNxQY1i+5Xr3OFZFCKXty4PNwCgow0b XE9JkmwOIO9JCte7g+4mKZY= =FgT1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_38_51_+0100_NxP=OzwPdjAVHAk5-- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 15 18:12:47 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9VpG-0000Gx-Jz for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:46 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9VpC-0000C9-G8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:43 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Vp9-00008e-Ly for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:41 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9Vp9-00008D-6Y for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:39 -0500 Received: from [212.247.154.205] (helo=swip.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9Vu8-0007M8-RW for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:17:49 -0500 X-T2-Posting-ID: VTTU9pcSNxKjR0bVYLFuiA== X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [81.211.187.242] (HELO neverland) by mailfe07.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.2) with ESMTPS id 124375908 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:12:31 +0100 Received: from frx by neverland with local (Exim 4.50) id 1F9Voj-0003kE-Tn for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:12:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:27:31 +0100 From: Francesco Poli To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-Id: <20060215232731.1a3fce30.frx@firenze.linux.it> In-Reply-To: <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_27_31_+0100_RYR/8f_EISSlDlIo" X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:12:44 -0000 --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_27_31_+0100_RYR/8f_EISSlDlIo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:54:22 +0100 Sylvain Beucler wrote: > MJ, Sanjoy, Francesco, >=20 > IMHO a secondary section cannot be that easily by-passed, but indeed > I'm not a lawyer. Also don't confuse preventing addition of 'global > warming' statements in derivates versions and accepting such changes > in a project manual. I know the difference: it's exactly the same difference between preventing addition of unmodifiable code in derivative versions of a program and accepting such changes in the official version of the program. No license choice can force the /licensor/ to accept contributions (s)he doesn't like. On the other hand, preventing derivative works from becoming proprietary is the primary job of copyleft. A simple non-copyleft Free license (2- or 3-clause BSD, Expat, X11) does not prevent such a "proprietarization". A copyleft license (such as the GPLv2) does instead prevent it. The GFDL doesn't fit well in either set of licenses: it tries to be a copyleft, in certain respects, but fails, because it allows adding unmodifiable *and* unremovable parts. Not to mention the other issues (which are due to unintended consequences of the license phrasing, rather than to the drafters' intetions, I think...) that are enough to make *any* GFDL'd work non-free, even if it has no unmodifiable & unremovable parts (that is to say, no Invariant Sections, no Front/Back-Cover Texts, no Dedications, ...)=20 [...] > Similarly we would like Texinfo documents at Savannah to be compatible > with the GNU manuals. I would like GNU manuals to be compatible with Free Software, but that's another issue... :-( > This is something we can't achieve if we accept > GNU GPL manuals. Maybe because GNU manuals are released under a license that is GPL-incompatible and non-free? Wouldn't it be much simpler if the FSF dual-licensed GNU manuals under GFDL/GPL? Or even better relicensed them under the GNU GPL v2? Building (license compatibility) barriers between a program and its manual is not a good thing to do and encourage... > We do not impose a particular license, just > compatibility, and we'd rather have people release such manuals under > _at least_ the GFDL rather than not being able to reuse them at > all. What if Micro$oft approaches the FSF and asks to re-release GNU project programs under _at least_ one license compatible with MS EULA (for instance the 2-clause BSD)? They would not impose a particular license, just compatibility. So that they can integrate proprietary code into them and include the result into Windows Vista... The FSF advocates for copyleft, but at the same time, adopts, promotes and asks others to adopt a license that allows adding proprietary (unmodifiable and unremovable) parts... Worse, the FSF itself includes such proprietary parts in GNU manuals! :-( The FSF is pushing the Free Software community in the wrong direction... :-((( > We also require the GFDL'd documents to be version 1.2 or any > later version so that any issue that can be found in the current > version of this license will be fixed with the next one. Personally, I'm not willing to license a work under yet unknown terms and conditions.=20 >=20 > In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns > about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to receive > comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. DRM criticism about > the GNU GPLv3 draft would probably also be useful in this aim. There already have been so long and painful discussions with various FSF people, including RMS himself, about the unfortunate GFDL issues, with very little progress (or no progress at all)... All this is really frustrating. >=20 >=20 > This is not about accepting a non-free license (the GFDL is a free > documentation license), Naming it "GNU Free Documentation License" does not make it a free license. I'm not aware of any definition or set of criteria or guidelines, under which the GFDL qualifies as a license suitable for releasing Free works of authorship. > and this is not about rejecting free software > at Savannah (we already do so by rejecting ASL'd software - until GNU > GPLv3 is out, that is :)). I suppose you're referring to Apache License v2.0 (http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0). So you are currently rejecting works under this license, but at the same time, setting up things so that the next GPL version will be compatible with it. When the GPL is compatible with it, you will accept works under Apache License at Savannah... This puzzles me a bit: does the FSF like or dislike Apache License v2.0? IIRC (I'm offline at the moment), the FSF lists it as a Free Software license, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it likes it... Anyway, why don't you act the same way with manuals under the GPLv2? Publish a new version of the GFDL that's compatible with GPLv2! Problem solved... >=20 >=20 > Incidentally a dozen of existing Savannah projects Texinfo manuals are > under the GNU GPL and hence affected by this. Those project adopt a (good) license that is promoted by the FSF itself: what's wrong with that? --=20 :-( This Universe is buggy! Where's the Creator's BTS? ;-) ...................................................................... Francesco Poli GnuPG Key ID =3D DD6DFCF4 Key fingerprint =3D C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_27_31_+0100_RYR/8f_EISSlDlIo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD86rYePQnm91t/PQRAmhKAJ9GOyL+XCokly53/w+5NyEVfPHdgwCdE68W F7NB6tB1VGOSVSWPHUYp+FE= =JECj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Wed__15_Feb_2006_23_27_31_+0100_RYR/8f_EISSlDlIo-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 16 16:43:31 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9quQ-0002LR-DR for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:43:30 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9quK-0002EJ-6Z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:43:24 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9quG-0002A1-7U for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:43:21 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9quC-00025K-40 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:43:16 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9qzO-0003qq-Qm for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:48:39 -0500 Received: (qmail 25088 invoked by uid 503); 16 Feb 2006 21:43:30 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 16 Feb 2006 21:43:30 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail49.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:43:30 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:43:15 -0000 Received: from mail49.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.49) by mail49.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:43:10 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:43:10 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:43:10 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9qu3-0003Ye-Ce; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:43:07 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:43:06 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: "tizzef @ gmail" Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News Message-ID: <20060216214306.GC13398@localhost.localdomain> References: <74a672470602150144m7d8c7864q468c4850f40c545f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <74a672470602150144m7d8c7864q468c4850f40c545f@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:43:26 -0000 On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:44:06AM +0100, tizzef @ gmail wrote: > Hi there, > > I don't give much more news because I spend my dedicated time to savannah to > read GNU documentation. > I think that by the end of the week I could be ready to hang up a project. Ok thanks. (do you mean the GNU manuals at www.gnu.org/prep/ or the documentation I sent you?) -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 16 16:58:32 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9r8w-0007ZO-KY for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:58:31 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9r8t-0007U0-0V for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:58:27 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9r8G-0006aB-RM for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:57:49 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9r87-0006OB-5a for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:57:39 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9rDK-0004eP-5W for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:03:02 -0500 Received: (qmail 3542 invoked by uid 503); 16 Feb 2006 21:57:54 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 16 Feb 2006 21:57:54 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail49.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:57:54 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:57:39 -0000 Received: from mail49.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.49) by mail49.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9r80-0003ZM-75; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:57:32 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:57:31 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: "Benjamin L. Shi" Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] Unix Admin Position? Message-ID: <20060216215731.GE13398@localhost.localdomain> References: <43F1FA78.60205@structurenet.com> <20060215002149.GC2757@localhost.localdomain> <43F33133.1040909@structurenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43F33133.1040909@structurenet.com> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500006 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:58:28 -0000 Besides reading our documentation, you can have a look at: https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/TasksList for a general medium-term lists of things we need to do. For longer term goals you may want to use your skills in: - subsystems isolation: we use a set of chroot jails but it would be good to check on more robusts solutions (virtual servers, xen and the like) - statistics: we have about no statistics on what happens at Savannah, and it would be good to prove users with their project activity feedback - infrastructure replication: so as to quickly duplicate Savannah at home and make tests Feel free to drop by #savannah on irc.freenode.net or reply so we all can know a bit more about each others. -- Sylvain On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 08:48:35AM -0500, Benjamin L. Shi wrote: > i don't know how i can contribute yet, but will learn and findout more, > on both general procedure, administrations, and specific projects, if > you have anything in mind. > > Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > >Hi, > > > >On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 10:42:48AM -0500, Benjamin L. Shi wrote: > > > > > >>Hi, I am very interested to help. For the past 8+ years, i have been > >>managing linux/solaris systems and will like to be invovled more in the > >>gnu/opensrc community. What is the requirement? Since i do have full > >>time job, there is a limited number of hours i can dedicate. Please let > >>me know. > >> > >> > > > >Thanks for the offer. > > > >We need help to run Savannah daily, mainly review project submissions > >and spread the GNU philosophy, and in a less urgent extend improve the > >Savannah services in various way. Everybody do a bit of both. > > > >How do you think you could contribute to the project? :) > > > >Hear from you soon, From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 16 17:54:21 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9s0y-0002WH-Kg for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:54:21 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9s0r-0002Rd-IV for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:54:13 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9s0m-0002P4-V0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:54:12 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9s0j-0002Ow-8i for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:54:05 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9s5w-0000FV-T0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:59:29 -0500 Received: (qmail 1016 invoked by uid 503); 16 Feb 2006 22:54:20 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 16 Feb 2006 22:54:20 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail49.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 22:54:20 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 22:54:05 -0000 Received: from mail49.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.49) by mail49.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 22:54:01 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 22:54:01 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 22:54:01 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9s0c-0003bU-5k; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:53:58 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:53:57 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Francesco Poli Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-ID: <20060216225357.GG13398@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> <20060215233851.2484e255.frx@firenze.linux.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060215233851.2484e255.frx@firenze.linux.it> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500771 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:54:14 -0000 On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:38:51PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: > On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 05:41:26 -0500 David Turner wrote: > > > > > In this regard, I asked what is the preferred way to send concerns > > > > about the GFDL in general. novalis@fsf.org would be glad to > > > > receive comments and use them for work on GFDL revision 3. > > > > > > Most of these comments have been made for over 5 years now! > > > I have been told that there is a new draft of the FDL ready > > > for publication. Please publish it, so we can comment topically. > > > > We're not prepared to release a new draft of the FDL in the middle of > > the GPLv3 process. There are a few reasons for this: > > > > 1. We have limited staff resources. > > > > 2. Some text from the GPL may be carried over into the FDL. > > So, let me understand: > > * you admit that a new GFDL version is necessary to address its issues > > * there are not enough resources to start a public comment process > right now > > * there are enough resources to push the adoption of a *bad* license > with known issues, before it gets fixed > > This puzzles me. > Wouldn't it be wiser to fix the license *first* and only *then* ask for > compatibility? Better ask early, and it depends on whether the known issues of a license outweight the issues of other solutions, or not. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 16 18:16:31 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9sMO-0008D4-TP for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:16:29 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9sMI-00089Q-Rw for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:16:23 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9sMF-00086C-8X for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:16:21 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9sMC-00085I-Kc for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:16:17 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1F9sRQ-0001py-Fl for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:21:40 -0500 Received: (qmail 16682 invoked by uid 503); 16 Feb 2006 23:16:31 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 16 Feb 2006 23:16:31 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail49.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 23:16:31 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 23:16:16 -0000 Received: from mail49.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.49) by mail49.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 23:16:13 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 23:16:13 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2006 23:16:13 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F9sM6-0003eQ-Lf; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:16:10 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:16:10 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: sysadmin@gnu.org Message-ID: <20060216231610.GB13992@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500003 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Mirroring Savannah X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:16:25 -0000 Hi, Do you think we could mirror the Savannah releases files via the GNU mirrors, as we currently do for project CVS? We currently host 3.6GB. Checks could be done during the replication so as to only mirror properly signed files, and let the rest only at Savannah. Also some script could be used to point users to a mirror near them, provided the requested file is (say) more than 1 week-old. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 16 20:15:38 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1F9tn6-0007PC-Mg for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:48:09 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9tTQ-0002lh-HH for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:27:49 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1F9tPG-0001IJ-EV for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:23:32 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1F9t9p-0003PR-1w for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:07:33 -0500 Received: from [212.247.154.13] (helo=swip.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1F9tF3-0005M3-Cq for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:12:57 -0500 X-T2-Posting-ID: VTTU9pcSNxKjR0bVYLFuiA== X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [81.211.186.148] (HELO neverland) by mailfe01.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.2) with ESMTPS id 106195908 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 01:07:25 +0100 Received: from frx by neverland with local (Exim 4.50) id 1F9t9c-0002qR-A2 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 01:07:20 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 01:06:46 +0100 From: Francesco Poli To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] GFDL Message-Id: <20060217010646.632b0821.frx@firenze.linux.it> In-Reply-To: <20060216225357.GG13398@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060212105051.GA1407@localhost.localdomain> <20060215015422.GA3222@localhost.localdomain> <1140000086.10393.8.camel@shepard> <20060215233851.2484e255.frx@firenze.linux.it> <20060216225357.GG13398@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Fri__17_Feb_2006_01_06_46_+0100_Dt+R3+UaBhD3m6nB" X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:48:04 -0000 --Signature=_Fri__17_Feb_2006_01_06_46_+0100_Dt+R3+UaBhD3m6nB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:53:57 +0100 Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > Wouldn't it be wiser to fix the license *first* and only *then* ask > > for compatibility? >=20 > Better ask early, People who think that the GFDL has unsolved issues that should be fixed are generally not willing to release their own works under the GFDL or in a GFDL-compatible way... > and it depends on whether the known issues of a > license outweight the issues of other solutions, or not. Are you thinking about releasing a manual under the GNU GPL v2, when you say "other solutions"? If this is the case, I'm not aware of any significant issue with that scenario. GFDL'd manuals, instead, cause many many problems... --=20 :-( This Universe is buggy! Where's the Creator's BTS? ;-) ...................................................................... Francesco Poli GnuPG Key ID =3D DD6DFCF4 Key fingerprint =3D C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 --Signature=_Fri__17_Feb_2006_01_06_46_+0100_Dt+R3+UaBhD3m6nB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD9ROdePQnm91t/PQRAnsSAKCC/g9zIwTPayA3UDZgMZlFhhkY7ACgk8Sy SMYQWU3MqRcRxZOyQSaNToQ= =KoUG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Fri__17_Feb_2006_01_06_46_+0100_Dt+R3+UaBhD3m6nB-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Feb 17 07:28:09 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FA4hJ-0004vt-Cq for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:26:54 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FA4PH-0002Ct-Jj for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:08:16 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FA4CY-0000Io-3S for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:56:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FA3zA-0006WV-Cv for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:41:17 -0500 Received: from [66.249.92.198] (helo=uproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FA44V-0000b9-EL for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:46:47 -0500 Received: by uproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m2so251724ugc for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 03:41:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=oCcAXATpSadCd420yWyHP8ONJo9jkxJx9Bfe9sTH/2iWaFVdCvhOTTHmsdAaxsPKDHdWHyM/sqREuJSVQ6u9Z5v/y9WEe3wFIMTvjvg5PEo3q3mw+SuNh5LR1jVs45vfyZUg6N2lOlSnivRVly7qRSVEcB5onO8m0eV4nT922QI= Received: by 10.66.234.20 with SMTP id g20mr51391ugh; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.245.9 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:40:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <74a672470602170240r7a8d6634x6a74902996d8e8c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:40:54 +0100 From: "tizzef @ gmail" To: Sylvain Beucler , savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News In-Reply-To: <20060216214306.GC13398@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17686_28565429.1140172854905" References: <74a672470602150144m7d8c7864q468c4850f40c545f@mail.gmail.com> <20060216214306.GC13398@localhost.localdomain> Cc: X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:26:47 -0000 ------=_Part_17686_28565429.1140172854905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi, I studing the documentation that you send me, and after reading it, I find myself with a lot of question concerning the GNU philosophy and others themes. Cheers On 2/16/06, Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:44:06AM +0100, tizzef @ gmail wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > I don't give much more news because I spend my dedicated time to > savannah to > > read GNU documentation. > > I think that by the end of the week I could be ready to hang up a > project. > > Ok thanks. > > (do you mean the GNU manuals at www.gnu.org/prep/ or the documentation > I sent you?) > > -- > Sylvain > -- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D tizzef@gmail.com 0682173892 PGP signature: 899C4F6269C26325B8941D6FD956F875450EB086 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------=_Part_17686_28565429.1140172854905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
I studing the documentation that you send me, and after reading it, I = find myself with a lot of question concerning the GNU philosophy and others= themes.
 
Cheers
 
On 2/16/06, = Sylvain Beucler <beuc@gnu.org>= ; wrote:
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:44:06= AM +0100, tizzef @ gmail wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I don't g= ive much more news because I spend my dedicated time to savannah to
> read GNU documentation.
> I think that by the end of the wee= k I could be ready to hang up a project.

Ok thanks.

(do you m= ean the GNU manuals at www.gnu.org/pre= p/ or the documentation
I sent you?)

--
Sylvain



--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
tizzef@gmail.com
0682173892
PGP signature:
899C4F6269C26325B8941D6FD956F875450EB086
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Online Pharmaceuticals jksdweiem QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------D94CFD2B9BA5EB7-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 18 13:45:59 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FAX5i-0008PP-L6 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:45:58 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAX5g-0008JL-3l for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:45:56 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAX5d-0008Es-PM for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:45:55 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAX5d-0008EH-7N for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:45:53 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FAXBG-0000t3-Cr for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:51:42 -0500 Received: (qmail 26013 invoked by uid 503); 18 Feb 2006 18:46:07 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 18 Feb 2006 18:46:07 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 18:46:07 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 18:45:54 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 18:45:52 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 18:45:52 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 18:45:52 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FAX5X-00021O-Hf; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:45:47 +0100 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:45:46 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Walter Landry Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification Message-ID: <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060217.153654.112627784.walter@geodynamics.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060217.153654.112627784.walter@geodynamics.org> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.501582 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:45:56 -0000 > Greetings, > > I am the project manager for ArX [1]. I read the news about licenses > clarification, and I have two comments/questions. > > 1) My code has always been under GPL v2 only. This was noted when I > applied to savannah [2]. Is this going to be a problem? Yes, if you die before GNU GPL v3 is released. However this requirement applies to new projects only. > 2) My project includes a 56 page manual under GPL v2 only. The only > license I will use for documentation is the same as for the code. > Since even RMS does not think that the GFDL is a free software > license [3], that rules out the GFDL. This is a borderline case since the source for the manual is not hosted at Savannah, but the manual is still available at www.nongnu.org. Is there a precise reason why the manual's license is bound to ArX's? -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 18 17:40:00 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FAakB-00084i-U2 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:39:59 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAak9-00081w-9W for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:39:57 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAak6-0007zl-Gl for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:39:56 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAak5-0007yw-Dx for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:39:53 -0500 Received: from [68.142.198.201] (helo=smtp102.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FAapk-0004FN-Ry for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:45:45 -0500 Received: (qmail 42793 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2006 22:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO earth.geodynamics.org) (purplesakana@sbcglobal.net@69.234.217.47 with login) by smtp102.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2006 22:39:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by earth.geodynamics.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AEB6016EC for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:40:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:40:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <20060218.144009.74754214.walter@geodynamics.org> To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification From: Walter Landry In-Reply-To: <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060217.153654.112627784.walter@geodynamics.org> <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.4 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:39:57 -0000 Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > I am the project manager for ArX [1]. I read the news about licenses > > clarification, and I have two comments/questions. > > > > 1) My code has always been under GPL v2 only. This was noted when I > > applied to savannah [2]. Is this going to be a problem? > > Yes, if you die before GNU GPL v3 is released. I don't understand what you mean here. I am not the only copyright holder. > However this requirement applies to new projects only. > > > > 2) My project includes a 56 page manual under GPL v2 only. The only > > license I will use for documentation is the same as for the code. > > Since even RMS does not think that the GFDL is a free software > > license [3], that rules out the GFDL. > > This is a borderline case since the source for the manual is not > hosted at Savannah, but the manual is still available at > www.nongnu.org. The manual's source is available in the tarball available from Savannah. > Is there a precise reason why the manual's license is bound to ArX's? Because I want to be able to intermix code and documentation. 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dfgfhwpre QlNFVVtfU1sZXVBRWFFHQh9DQVddW1B0Ul9HHVtHVg== ------------E8844BFBB6B2F24-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 19 18:15:21 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FAxlw-0007lM-Ks for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:15:20 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAxlu-0007ib-F6 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:15:18 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FAxlr-0007ep-27 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:15:17 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FAxlp-0007dw-OY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:15:14 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FAxrj-000090-Fo for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2006 18:21:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 8430 invoked by uid 503); 19 Feb 2006 23:15:28 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 19 Feb 2006 23:15:28 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail151.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2006 23:15:28 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2006 23:15:14 -0000 Received: from mail151.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.151) by mail151.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2006 23:15:10 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2006 23:15:10 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2006 23:15:10 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FAxlh-0008NR-Ec; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 00:15:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 00:15:05 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Walter Landry Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification Message-ID: <20060219231505.GA32005@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060217.153654.112627784.walter@geodynamics.org> <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> <20060218.144009.74754214.walter@geodynamics.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060218.144009.74754214.walter@geodynamics.org> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500182 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:15:19 -0000 On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 02:40:09PM -0800, Walter Landry wrote: > Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > > > I am the project manager for ArX [1]. I read the news about licenses > > > clarification, and I have two comments/questions. > > > > > > 1) My code has always been under GPL v2 only. This was noted when I > > > applied to savannah [2]. Is this going to be a problem? > > > > Yes, if you die before GNU GPL v3 is released. > > I don't understand what you mean here. I am not the only copyright > holder. Then there will be a problem anytime a GNU GPLv3 project want to include code from yours, because GNU GPLv3 will most likely not be compatible with v2. > > However this requirement applies to new projects only. > > > > > > > 2) My project includes a 56 page manual under GPL v2 only. The only > > > license I will use for documentation is the same as for the code. > > > Since even RMS does not think that the GFDL is a free software > > > license [3], that rules out the GFDL. > > > > This is a borderline case since the source for the manual is not > > hosted at Savannah, but the manual is still available at > > www.nongnu.org. > > The manual's source is available in the tarball available from Savannah. > > > Is there a precise reason why the manual's license is bound to ArX's? > > Because I want to be able to intermix code and documentation. What do you mean by intermix? For example if you want to include bits of text from the manual in the program output, you can do so by fetching the text at run time independently of the licenses. -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 20 15:13:18 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FBHPJ-0008NS-Le for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:13:18 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FBHPD-0008Jq-GV for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:13:11 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FBHPA-0008Gu-Iv for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:13:10 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FBHLn-0005c5-QW for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:09:39 -0500 Received: from [68.142.198.210] (helo=smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FBHRu-0005SO-3p for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:15:58 -0500 Received: (qmail 46892 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2006 20:09:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO earth.geodynamics.org) (purplesakana@sbcglobal.net@69.234.217.47 with login) by smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2006 20:09:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by earth.geodynamics.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69D240B8CA for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <20060220.120953.71088266.walter@geodynamics.org> To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification From: Walter Landry In-Reply-To: <20060219231505.GA32005@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> <20060218.144009.74754214.walter@geodynamics.org> <20060219231505.GA32005@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.4 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:13:12 -0000 Sylvain Beucler wrote: > On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 02:40:09PM -0800, Walter Landry wrote: > > Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > > > 2) My project includes a 56 page manual under GPL v2 only. The only > > > > license I will use for documentation is the same as for the code. > > > > Since even RMS does not think that the GFDL is a free software > > > > license [3], that rules out the GFDL. > > > > > > This is a borderline case since the source for the manual is not > > > hosted at Savannah, but the manual is still available at > > > www.nongnu.org. > > > > The manual's source is available in the tarball available from Savannah. > > > > > Is there a precise reason why the manual's license is bound to ArX's? > > > > Because I want to be able to intermix code and documentation. > > What do you mean by intermix? > > For example if you want to include bits of text from the manual in the > program output, you can do so by fetching the text at run time > independently of the licenses. There are three problems here: 1) This won't work in all cases. For example, taking a comment and incorporating it into the manual or vice-versa. It also makes the program more fragile, because it is no longer self contained. 2) This runs afoul of section 2 of the GPL, the relevant part of which is But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. 3) Unnecessary licenses conflicts are determining technical details. 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After a storm comes the calm. ------------8C6100C6DAE6E41-- From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 21 14:52:47 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FBdZ0-0007mo-Nt for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:52:47 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FBdG3-0000AJ-2U for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:33:11 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FBct8-0000r5-Jg for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:09:39 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FBbXz-0007lJ-N8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:43:37 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.167] (helo=rt.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1FBbeF-0003pH-5t; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:50:03 -0500 Received: from www-data by rt.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1FBbYY-0005iI-Gt; Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:44:10 -0500 From: "Justin Baugh via RT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: gnu.org RT-Ticket: gnu.org #275287 Managed-by: RT 3.0.11 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: baughj@fsf.org To: beuc@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Sender: www-data Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:44:10 -0500 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] [gnu.org #275287] Mirroring Savannah X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: sysadmin@gnu.org List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:52:44 -0000 > [beuc - Thu Feb 16 18:16:49 2006]: > > Hi, > > Do you think we could mirror the Savannah releases files via the GNU > mirrors, as we currently do for project CVS? > > We currently host 3.6GB. > > Checks could be done during the replication so as to only mirror > properly signed files, and let the rest only at Savannah. > > Also some script could be used to point users to a mirror near them, > provided the requested file is (say) more than 1 week-old. This is possible, and I like the idea, but there is zero bandwidth on the sysadmin end at the moment for this. -Justin -- Justin Baugh (baughj at gnu dot org) Systems Administrator Free Software Foundation From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 23 00:20:07 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FC79V-0000uY-Fo for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:28:26 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FC6SI-0003R5-6Z for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:43:47 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FC2Nf-0007Ap-2H for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:27:36 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FC1nx-0003zV-1o for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:45:51 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FC1uW-0004t8-3B for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:52:36 -0500 Received: (qmail 25910 invoked by uid 503); 22 Feb 2006 21:46:02 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 22 Feb 2006 21:46:02 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail44.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2006 21:46:02 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2006 21:45:48 -0000 Received: from mail44.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.44) by mail44.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2006 21:45:39 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2006 21:27:17 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2006 21:27:17 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FC1Vx-0002NG-6t; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:27:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:27:12 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: webmasters@gnu.org Message-ID: <20060222212711.GC8973@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] GNU Mirrors list X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 03:28:19 -0000 Hi, Some mirrors in: http://www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html are outdated. ftp://ftp.irisa.fr/pub/gnu/ does not mirror ftp.gnu.org anymore (abeilt it seems to mirror other GNU resources such as www.gnu.org) http://ftp.gnu.mirrors.hoobly.com/ does not accept anonymous logins ftp://ftp.keystealth.org/pub/gnu/ looks pretty outdated ftp://gnu.wwc.edu/ does not exist anymore (among others, I think) Can you fix them? :) Is the list somehow checked? -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Feb 23 01:02:11 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FC75v-0000Qc-Cd for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:24:43 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FC3u6-0006bJ-5e for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:00:19 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FC271-0005f4-Oc for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:06:46 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FBz7k-0002At-EZ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:54:04 -0500 Received: from [125.243.83.194] (helo=-1209035104) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FByh6-0004V8-6g for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Received: from greenfilter.co.uk (-1209619488 [-1212015344]) by gpslssjeqs.savings-companion.net (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id DCC230CEAC for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:09:04 -0600 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:09:04 -0600 From: "Revolve K. 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XP - $59.95 Premiere 7 - $69.95 Painter 8 - $59.95 Windows 98 Second Edition - $49.95 Our site: http://3zrz9wr28qrg433g83ly833l.pantheicjk.com From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 25 12:29:24 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3ES-00078A-8a for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:29:24 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3EM-00072k-BY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:29:18 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3EK-00071f-6x for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:29:17 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3EJ-00071O-SS for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:29:15 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FD3Ee-0000KB-T8 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:29:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 4562 invoked by uid 503); 25 Feb 2006 17:29:26 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 25 Feb 2006 17:29:26 -0000 Received: from b7.ovh.net (HELO mail156.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.57) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2006 17:29:26 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2006 17:29:17 -0000 Received: from mail156.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.156) by mail156.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2006 17:29:14 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2006 17:29:14 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2006 17:29:14 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FD3EA-0004cP-Jy; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:29:06 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:29:05 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Walter Landry Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification Message-ID: <20060225172905.GC17654@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060218184546.GB7650@localhost.localdomain> <20060218.144009.74754214.walter@geodynamics.org> <20060219231505.GA32005@localhost.localdomain> <20060220.120953.71088266.walter@geodynamics.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060220.120953.71088266.walter@geodynamics.org> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:29:19 -0000 On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 12:09:53PM -0800, Walter Landry wrote: > Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 02:40:09PM -0800, Walter Landry wrote: > > > Sylvain Beucler wrote: > > > > > 2) My project includes a 56 page manual under GPL v2 only. The only > > > > > license I will use for documentation is the same as for the code. > > > > > Since even RMS does not think that the GFDL is a free software > > > > > license [3], that rules out the GFDL. > > > > > > > > This is a borderline case since the source for the manual is not > > > > hosted at Savannah, but the manual is still available at > > > > www.nongnu.org. > > > > > > The manual's source is available in the tarball available from Savannah. > > > > > > > Is there a precise reason why the manual's license is bound to ArX's? > > > > > > Because I want to be able to intermix code and documentation. > > > > What do you mean by intermix? > > > > For example if you want to include bits of text from the manual in the > > program output, you can do so by fetching the text at run time > > independently of the licenses. > > There are three problems here: > > 1) This won't work in all cases. For example, taking a comment and > incorporating it into the manual or vice-versa. It also makes > the program more fragile, because it is no longer self contained. > > 2) This runs afoul of section 2 of the GPL, the relevant part of which is > > But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole > which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the > whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions > for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to > each and every part regardless of who wrote it. When you have an application display an image, the image need not be released under a license compatible with the application's. I'm pretty sure it is the same case for displaying bits of documentation. > 3) Unnecessary licenses conflicts are determining technical details. I understand those concerns. I apologize for entering a "Why do you use the GNU GPL" debate, this was actually a bit off-topic. The real question is: would you mind dual-licensing your manual, to fit both your concerns and ours? If that is not an option for you, we will ask you to host the manual at another place. Thanks and best regards, -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 25 12:33:32 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3IS-0006Ea-BJ for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:32 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3IP-00069u-Ap for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:29 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3IN-00065Q-7v for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:28 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FD3IL-00062C-J3 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:26 -0500 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FD3Ig-0000bG-Se for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:46 -0500 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FD3IH-0007R8-00 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:33:21 -0500 Received: by savannah.gnu.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:33:21 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:33:21 +0100 To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org From: Sylvain Beucler X-Savane-Server: savannah.gnu.org:443 [199.232.41.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 X-Savane-Project: administration X-Savane-Tracker: news User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050922 Firefox/1.0.7 (Debian package 1.0.7-1) X-Apparently-From: 82.238.35.175 (Savane authenticated user Beuc) Message-Id: <20060225-183321.sv20998.54645@savannah.gnu.org> Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] lists.gnu.org delays X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:33:31 -0000 lists.gnu.org is being redone from scratch. The Savannah Hackers are not involved in that process. Work is focused on the new system rather than the current one. ETA is fall of March. We'll post additional information here if available. _______________________________________________ Message posté via/par Savannah http://savannah.gnu.org/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 26 11:25:53 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FDOiW-0002u6-2u for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:25:52 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDOiP-0002rS-Es for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:25:46 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDOiB-0002mB-UG for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:25:42 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDOi7-0002kg-V0 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:25:30 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FDOid-0002ec-79 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:25:59 -0500 Received: (qmail 19951 invoked by uid 503); 26 Feb 2006 16:25:35 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 26 Feb 2006 16:25:35 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail58.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:25:35 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:25:22 -0000 Received: from mail58.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.58) by mail58.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:25:20 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:25:19 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:25:19 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FDOhv-00021y-Cg; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:25:15 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:25:14 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: sysadmin@gnu.org Message-ID: <20060226162514.GA7748@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500014 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] lists.gnu.org infos X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:25:47 -0000 Several Savannah users are asking why there are huge delays on lists.gnu.org, as well as web interruption. Additionaly I think we are missing trackers notifications - unless the delay spans several days. I started answering that the mail system is being redone. However it would be good to provide some more information and reassure people. Can you give more updates on the work being done, via sysadmin-discuss or any other mean? Cheers, -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 26 16:34:11 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FDTWs-0005BU-7A for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:34:10 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDTWn-00059f-4T for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:34:05 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDTWl-00058s-3P for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:34:03 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDTWj-00058A-23 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:34:01 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FDTXG-0007uy-On for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:34:35 -0500 Received: (qmail 11525 invoked by uid 503); 26 Feb 2006 21:34:08 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 26 Feb 2006 21:34:08 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail58.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 21:34:08 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 21:33:55 -0000 Received: from mail58.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.58) by mail58.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 21:33:49 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 18:51:31 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 18:51:31 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FDQzO-0002LF-BL; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:51:26 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:51:25 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: sysadmin@gnu.org Message-ID: <20060226185125.GA8867@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] lists.gnu.org undelivered mails X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:34:06 -0000 Hi, Mails from savannah.gnu.org to lists.gnu.org are apparently queued/rejected, and I also received a support request from Derek Price: https://savannah.gnu.org/support/index.php?func=detailitem&item_id=105186 ===== My nightly testing result emails suddenly started generating the error responses below from the cvs-test-results@nongnu.org mailing list. These emails used to go through without problems and mail from other sources is still getting through to the mailing list. The last email that went through to the list from my test automation was on Feb. 22nd (as may be seen in the archive ). If this is something I can fix on my end, please let me know, but "local deliever failed" is not specific enough for me to diagnose the problem. The error mail from the gnu.org mail server: >From - Sun Feb 26 11:37:49 2006 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: oberon-step2@mail.ximbiot.com Received: (qmail 5907 invoked by alias); 26 Feb 2006 16:38:01 -0000 Delivered-To: alias-local-oberon-step2@ximbiot.com Received: (qmail 5902 invoked by uid 500); 26 Feb 2006 16:38:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 5877 invoked by uid 506); 26 Feb 2006 16:37:30 -0000 Delivered-To: cvstest@mail.ximbiot.com Received: (qmail 5874 invoked by alias); 26 Feb 2006 16:37:30 -0000 Delivered-To: alias-local-cvstest@ximbiot.com Received: (qmail 5869 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2006 16:37:30 -0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (199.232.76.165) by s233-64-208-242.try.wideopenwest.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2006 16:37:30 -0000 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FDOto-0006Vv-Cq for cvstest@ximbiot.com; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:37:33 -0500 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated From: Mail Delivery System To: cvstest@ximbiot.com Subject: Warning: message 1FCwIm-0006Vk-PH delayed 24 hours Message-Id: Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:37:32 -0500 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,MAILER_DAEMON,RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to one or more of its recipients after more than 24 hours on the queue on lists.gnu.org. The message identifier is: 1FCwIm-0006Vk-PH The date of the message is: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:05:04 -0500 The subject of the message is: Nightly testing results for TRUNK (sun4u SunOS 5.9) The address to which the message has not yet been delivered is: cvs-test-results@nongnu.org Delay reason: local delivery failed No action is required on your part. Delivery attempts will continue for some time, and this warning may be repeated at intervals if the message remains undelivered. Eventually the mail delivery software will give up, and when that happens, the message will be returned to you. ===== Can you tell what is happening? Regards, -- Sylvain From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 26 19:16:22 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FDW3m-0007aE-F8 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:16:18 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDW3W-0007Ri-1T for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:16:03 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDW3Q-0007OJ-3a for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:15:59 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDW3O-0007NV-LQ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:15:55 -0500 Received: from [64.34.169.74] (helo=f7.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FDW3l-00011p-Uz; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:16:18 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org X-Envelope-To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Received: (from karl@localhost) by f7.net (8.11.7-20030920/8.11.7) id k1R0FYv17043; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:15:34 -0600 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:15:34 -0600 Message-Id: <200602270015.k1R0FYv17043@f7.net> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) To: beuc@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20060209220809.GD15228@localhost.localdomain> Cc: johns@fsf.org, savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, psmith@nortel.com, bob@proulx.com Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 00:16:04 -0000 Sylvain and all, Wdyt about changing wholesale any lists.gnu.org mailing lists which currently have generic_nonmember_action=accept? We can determine this with a simple dumpdb loop, I believe. At least then we will not be spewing spam. BTW, did you cron the removal of old queue messages? Thanks, karl From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 27 01:55:53 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FDcIS-0006Oc-29 for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:55:52 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDcIM-0006N6-Uz for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:55:47 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDcII-0006Kq-L2 for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:55:44 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDcIH-0006KS-Bw for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:55:41 -0500 Received: from [68.142.198.213] (helo=smtp114.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FDcIt-0008Fq-Eu for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:56:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 69455 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2006 06:55:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO earth.geodynamics.org) (purplesakana@sbcglobal.net@69.234.217.47 with login) by smtp114.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 06:55:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by earth.geodynamics.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E67C40B296 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:55:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:55:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <20060226.225544.97286433.walter@geodynamics.org> To: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers-public] News: Licenses clarification From: Walter Landry In-Reply-To: <20060225172905.GC17654@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060219231505.GA32005@localhost.localdomain> <20060220.120953.71088266.walter@geodynamics.org> <20060225172905.GC17654@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.4 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 06:55:49 -0000 Sylvain Beucler wrote: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 12:09:53PM -0800, Walter Landry wrote: > > 2) This runs afoul of section 2 of the GPL, the relevant part of which is > > > > But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole > > which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the > > whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions > > for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to > > each and every part regardless of who wrote it. > > When you have an application display an image, the image need not be > released under a license compatible with the application's. I'm pretty > sure it is the same case for displaying bits of documentation. The difference between incorporating the text directly into the program and reading it at runtime is precisely the difference between static and dynamic linking. It makes no difference to the GPL. > > 3) Unnecessary licenses conflicts are determining technical details. > > > I understand those concerns. > > I apologize for entering a "Why do you use the GNU GPL" debate, this > was actually a bit off-topic. The real question is: would you mind > dual-licensing your manual, to fit both your concerns and ours? I will only use the same license for documentation and code. Everyone agrees that the GFDL is not a free license when applied to code. So no, I will not dual license the manual. > If that is not an option for you, we will ask you to host the manual > at another place. Are you really going to kick me off of Savannah because I only use the GNU GPL? Cheers, Walter Landry wlandry@ucsd.edu From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Feb 27 04:17:41 2006 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1FDeVb-0004MZ-Gb for mharc-savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:17:37 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDeVR-0004LP-QY for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:17:27 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1FDeVO-0004Kq-AZ for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:17:22 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FDeVJ-0004Kh-VC for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:17:19 -0500 Received: from [213.186.42.179] (helo=26.mail-out.ovh.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1FDeVw-0001C4-Us for savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:17:57 -0500 Received: (qmail 1348 invoked by uid 503); 27 Feb 2006 09:17:01 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 27 Feb 2006 09:17:01 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail58.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 26.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 09:17:01 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 07:49:18 -0000 Received: from mail58.ha.ovh.net (10.0.50.58) by mail58.ha.ovh.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 07:49:06 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-pre) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 07:49:05 -0000 Received: from perso.beuc.net (HELO localhost.localdomain) (82.238.35.175) by ns0.ovh.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 2006 07:49:05 -0000 Received: from me by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FDd7X-0002ww-Io; Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:48:39 +0100 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:48:38 +0100 From: Sylvain Beucler To: Karl Berry Message-ID: <20060227074838.GA11304@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060209220809.GD15228@localhost.localdomain> <200602270015.k1R0FYv17043@f7.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200602270015.k1R0FYv17043@f7.net> X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126 X-Ovh-Remote: 82.238.35.175 (perso.beuc.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.5 Cc: johns@fsf.org, savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org, psmith@nortel.com, bob@proulx.com Subject: [Savannah-hackers-public] Re: Mailman upgrade X-BeenThere: savannah-hackers-public@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions among Savannah Hackers, open subscription" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:17:30 -0000 Given all the troubles that lists.gnu.org currently experiences, and the work sysadmin is currently doing to revamp everything, I'd recommend waiting for the new setup to be inplace before to start making changes. Old messages will be removed during the migration to the new install, and more generally spam-filtered (as jag mentioned). Then we'll have the Mailman auto-purge feature. Moving generic_nonmember_action to something else than 'accept' would require some user education; lots of lists, including ours, have this option set to 'accept' (although I started moderating one). Users tend to think that spam ought to be filtered by the sysadmins without any end-user intervention. If on the contrary we think that supervision is necessary individually for each list (as I believe is the case with Bob's system), we need to explain it. Probably we should ask sysadmin for more information on what they plan to do in this regard (I saw posts from jag on the Mailman list about a 'mark as spam' feature). -- Sylvain On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 06:15:34PM -0600, Karl Berry wrote: > Sylvain and all, > > Wdyt about changing wholesale any lists.gnu.org mailing lists which > currently have generic_nonmember_action=accept? We can determine this > with a simple dumpdb loop, I believe. > > At least then we will not be spewing spam. > > BTW, did you cron the removal of old queue messages? > > Thanks,