From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 03:40:31 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DS943-0006re-0i for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 03:40:31 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DS941-0006p1-3L for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 03:40:29 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DS940-0006oC-Aj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 03:40:28 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DS940-0006gV-4K for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 03:40:28 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DS968-0003Yw-VC for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 03:42:41 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j417c9Ef022156 for ; Sun, 1 May 2005 02:38:09 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005050102380700077 for ; Sun, 01 May 2005 02:38:07 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9879d1ec8ce6e392b87f03ce692dd837@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 02:38:08 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] New naga units X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 07:40:29 -0000 A number of campaign developers have wanted me to flesh out the naga race. I have a unit proposal here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77009#77009 Anyways, because I'm insanely busy over the next three weeks, with the end of term and all, I can't animate them right now - however, they're perfectly fine for use. I'd like to commit these so they can be used in campaigns and have their stats ironed out. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 10:29:43 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSFS3-0000GT-0Y for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 10:29:43 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSFS1-0000Fx-2h for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 10:29:41 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSFS0-0000Fk-EY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 10:29:40 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSFS0-0006Va-B9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 10:29:40 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.56] (helo=sccrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSFFT-0006r8-R4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 10:16:44 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005050114120301200dav1qe>; Sun, 1 May 2005 14:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: <4274E3B1.30205@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:12:01 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] C++ streams and VC++6 References: <426EC67C.1010708@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <426EC67C.1010708@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:29:41 -0000 David White wrote: > In 0.9.0, we switched to using istreams to read files, instead of > using the C API. > > Unfortunately it seems the istreams implementation that ships with > VC++6 is very slow. It can take a very long time for an uncached game > to load a campaign -- up to a minute on my 2Ghz machine, and some > users seem to report it taking many minutes. I managed to resolve this problem by using VC++6 with STLPort instead of the Microsoft/Dinkumware standard library implementation that ships with VC++6. I tried to use the freely downloadable VC++7.1 compiler, but I couldn't get it working properly: it seems to crash in libintl alot for some reason. STLPort should also have other advantages for us, such as supporting all std::string operations properly such as push_back and template constructors. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 12:07:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSGyF-0002aw-EW for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:07:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSGyC-0002YS-8W for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:07:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSGy9-0002XH-H1 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:06:57 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSGuv-0000k8-HO for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:03:37 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSGpt-000715-MO for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 11:58:25 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DRzdT-0006V3-5v for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:36:27 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j3ULWGEf012138 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:32:16 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005043016321430536 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:32:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <138197dfccaae5a9bccda11e85cf3769@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:32:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Initial moves towards inclusion of high elves X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:07:02 -0000 Namely, I would like to split the Elvish Sorceress off into a separate line, so that over the next few releases people are not hiring/acquiring the thing in campaigns. I would not change the id of the unit, I would really just sever the leveling connection to it from the shaman. Thus, anyone who had the unit in their save files would still be able to keep it, but it would quietly "encourage" people to stop getting it. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 12:25:30 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHG6-0003yf-1F for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:25:30 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHBo-0001Oo-Ig for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:21:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHBR-0000zM-1b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:20:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHBP-0000hd-1F for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:20:39 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSHDf-00058h-AH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:22:59 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DRr28-00085g-Su for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:25:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBFA7F803F for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27524-02 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.33] (unknown [80.28.64.240]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876F77F8032 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:41:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:23:33 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart25934184.qNE1aATvst"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200504301423.36632.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Fwd: wesnoth in Frenc stratzgy magazine X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:25:28 -0000 --nextPart25934184.qNE1aATvst Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary-01=_Fj3cCKo8pJTS2Tq" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --Boundary-01=_Fj3cCKo8pJTS2Tq Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --Boundary-01=_Fj3cCKo8pJTS2Tq Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="forwarded message" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: =?utf-8?q?Th=C3=A9ophile_Monnier?= : wesnoth in Frenc stratzgy magazine Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: isaac@sindominio.net Delivered-To: isaac@sindominio.net Received: from ada.sindominio.net (ada.sindominio.net [213.172.61.253]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fanelli.sindominio.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEDA63782 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ada.sindominio.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2A24003EF for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ada.sindominio.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ada [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28949-08 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp7.wanadoo.fr (smtp7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.24]) by ada.sindominio.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6770740009F for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 89C4718000A8 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Theo (AMarseille-152-1-66-112.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.201.64.112]) by mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 2D1C91800098 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:23 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20050430084223184.2D1C91800098@mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr Message-ID: <00d801c54d60$8c960bd0$3701a8c0@Theo> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9ophile_Monnier?= To: Subject: wesnoth in Frenc stratzgy magazine Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C54D71.4FD29090" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at sindominio.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 tagged_above=-20.0 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C54D71.4FD29090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I'm thre editor of the French magazine PC4War, dedicated to strategy = games (chelc the website : www.pc4war.com). Normally, I have contacted = you six months ago when we have put a previous of Wesnoth in the CD of = the magazine (but I have a doubt about this, I canno't find my mail = back). Let me know if you haven't seen the magazine, I can send you some = issues. Whatever, we stand ready to include Wesnoth again in the CD, with your = agreement of course, and we look forward to present and test the game, = we really like ita lot ! Also, another question, have you already considered publishing and = selling the final version of Wesoth. We have a webstore dedicated to = military history and strategy game (www.store4war.com), we have also = started a editor activity and we would be very interested to produce and = try to sell Wesnoth, with a copyrights agreements with you, at least in = France. What is you opinion about this ? Th=E9ophile Monnier www.pc4war.com ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C54D71.4FD29090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello
I'm thre editor of the French magazine=20 PC4War, dedicated to strategy games (chelc the website = : www.pc4war.com). Normally, I have = contacted you=20 six months ago when we have put a previous of Wesnoth in the CD of the = magazine=20 (but I have a doubt about this, I canno't find my mail back). Let me = know if you=20 haven't seen the magazine, I can send you some issues.
Whatever, we stand ready to include Wesnoth = again in the=20 CD, with your agreement of course, and we look forward to present and = test the=20 game, we really like ita lot !
 
Also, another question, have you already = considered=20 publishing and selling the final version of Wesoth. We have a webstore = dedicated=20 to military history and strategy game (www.store4war.com), we have also = started a=20 editor activity and we would be very interested to produce and try to = sell=20 Wesnoth, with a copyrights agreements with you, at least in France. What = is you=20 opinion about this ?
Th=E9ophile Monnier
www.pc4war.com
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C54D71.4FD29090-- --Boundary-01=_Fj3cCKo8pJTS2Tq-- --nextPart25934184.qNE1aATvst Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBCc3jIQET2GFTmct4RAtxOAKCvistNOl5ihUuqsUUkwqQG5KRjPQCeJ8XU OjBQx1ZHyFHzQKUCDW5R2+s= =+Pn+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart25934184.qNE1aATvst-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 12:48:48 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHce-0007K9-7U for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:48:48 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHcc-0007JR-3t for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:48:46 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHca-0007Iv-QU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:48:45 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSHRn-00020j-5F for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:37:35 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSH4I-0002ub-00 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 12:13:18 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DRtJ6-0003FN-6U for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:51:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1837F803F for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:07:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01826-04 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:07:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.33] (unknown [80.28.64.240]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07BF7F8032 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:07:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:49:17 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 References: <00d801c54d60$8c960bd0$3701a8c0@Theo> <200504301608.52796.isaac@sindominio.net> <001501c54d92$a0b4e1e0$79fac2d4@monnier> In-Reply-To: <001501c54d92$a0b4e1e0$79fac2d4@monnier> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1932632.FIE935uMj2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200504301649.18101.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Re: wesnoth in Frenc stratzgy magazine X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:48:47 -0000 --nextPart1932632.FIE935uMj2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, 30 de April de 2005 16:41, you wrote: > Hello Isaac > Thank you for you kind answer. I will send you on Monday the issue where = we > gave Wesnoth (that was four months ago) and also the last issue of the > magazine. I just need you adress of course, and don't hesitate to send me > the adress of other people of your team. I saw that you have many Frenchm= an > in your team maybe they know about PC4War (I also directed some others > magazine in the past years : Vaevictis and Cyberstrat=C3=A8ge) I can beli= eve it > it possible to distribute and sell you game like this, freely... As a > Fantasy General / Master of Magic fan for years, I jump on the ocasion (I > play Wesnoth nearly once every week). What I would like to do is try to > finalize with you a "commercial" version, this mean a version you could > consider "final" (or at least 1.0), setup a manual with you, get all this > boxed and produce the CD, and try to sell them through our store > www.store4war.com to start with, with the support of PC4War. I will read > the GPL agreement to be sure this can be done. We will finance all the > production and I offer you the regular copyrights for this, which is 10% > royalties on all game sold (on the public price). As Wesnoth will still be > available freely from your website, I think that we have to realise a good > manual to justify for the fact that we sell the game. Msot probably, we > will try to sell the game around 29 euros at the most. Another way to do = it > would be simply to give the game in the magazine, but it doesn't make a > real change. I will try to think about his in the next days, and I wait f= or > your adress. Th=C3=A9ophile > www.pc4war.com =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --nextPart1932632.FIE935uMj2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBCc5ruQET2GFTmct4RAsz4AJ42ywlVuMtKiyxLb5pD4gVAy6QLrwCeOEmQ TXdGOBFB/wCpQr2hK4DHU9U= =DOTI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1932632.FIE935uMj2-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 17:33:37 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSM3p-0003Xp-I7 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 17:33:09 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSM3c-0003P9-2G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 17:32:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSM3V-0003HJ-Dl for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 17:32:49 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSM3V-00036l-9U for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 17:32:49 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.59] (helo=sccrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSLuk-0000Ab-NA for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 17:23:46 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20050501211912014009qqt9e>; Sun, 1 May 2005 21:19:17 +0000 Message-ID: <427547CD.50509@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:19:09 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Problem with checksumstream in 0.9.1 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 21:33:00 -0000 In Wesnoth 0.9.1, checksumstream is derived from std::basic_ostream, and has a checksumstreambuf sbuf; as a member, where checksumstreambuf is derived from std::basic_streambuf Its constructor looks like this: checksumstream::checksumstream() : std::basic_ostream(&sbuf) { } This is a problem because bases are constructed before members. So, at the time the std::basic_ostream constructor is run, sbuf hasn't been constructed, and std::basic_ostream is given an address to an invalid object. This causes a crash in VC++6 with STLPort. I am hacking around this so I can make a working Windows release of 0.9.1 by defining checksumstream like this: class checksumstream : private checksumstreambuf, public std::basic_ostream { public: checksumstream(); unsigned long checksum(); private: checksumstreambuf& sbuf; }; and its constructor like this: checksumstream::checksumstream() : std::basic_ostream(this), sbuf(*this) { } However it would be appreciated if the person who wrote this class apply a permanent fix. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 01 18:45:32 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSNBr-0004a4-PV for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 18:45:32 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSNBm-0004Xy-Io for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 18:45:26 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSNBj-0004VZ-0G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 18:45:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSNBi-0004UL-Pd for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 18:45:22 -0400 Received: from [216.136.227.34] (helo=web20521.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSN7F-0005nq-KP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 18:40:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 80905 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2005 22:36:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Ro9lwy/4EIrDFKDclP0BCpegM5A3EYRl2N3q7OsG8n6IwsNtBGsMqi95ULU1gvdkN92E0HVpDEEnhCr/BPIBIhLYTgEM4SPPsKdfB9SIa9rTDQdGtLmR6PmFhCragCn3YITcbxcUHLbbAtfkrfbqLDVnbCn6zBXxj2cgMnGkTsg= ; Message-ID: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.60.131.93] by web20521.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 May 2005 15:36:22 PDT Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:36:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Asa Swain Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Selling Wesnoth? To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:45:28 -0000 Isaac, I suppose it doesn't hurt to pursue this offer, but I am suspicious of the idea of "selling" wesnoth. If we offer a complete version for free on our website, I'm not sure that a pretty box and manual would justify people spending money for it. Of course people might buy it at a store not knowing there is a free version available. This man seems like a fan of the game, but he obviously wants to try to make money off of it. Between trying to sell us his magazine and offering us profits from selling Wesnoth, I'm suspicious of his attempts to make money of the popularity of our game. I don't mean that I don't trust him, I just ethically have issues with "selling" an open-source game. I don't think that that is how we should be spreading this game. What would we do with the profits? Defray bandwidth costs? Even if we write a really good manual, is that worth the 29 euros he wants to charge? Of course Wesnoth won't reach v1.0 for quite a while, so we don't have to decide now. A good manual would make Wesnoth easier to learn and play, but for now I think finishing the game is more important. -Asa P.S. Although before v1.0 writing a HTML or pdf manual to include with the game might be a good idea. So is improving our help system, but I like reading manuals outside of the game. --- Isaac Clerencia wrote: > On Saturday, 30 de April de 2005 16:41, you wrote: > > Hello Isaac > > > Thank you for you kind answer. I will send you on > Monday the issue where we > > gave Wesnoth (that was four months ago) and also > the last issue of the > > magazine. I just need you adress of course, and > don't hesitate to send me > > the adress of other people of your team. I saw > that you have many Frenchman > > in your team maybe they know about PC4War (I also > directed some others > > magazine in the past years : Vaevictis and > Cyberstratège) I can believe it > > it possible to distribute and sell you game like > this, freely... As a > > Fantasy General / Master of Magic fan for years, I > jump on the ocasion (I > > play Wesnoth nearly once every week). What I would > like to do is try to > > finalize with you a "commercial" version, this > mean a version you could > > consider "final" (or at least 1.0), setup a manual > with you, get all this > > boxed and produce the CD, and try to sell them > through our store > > www.store4war.com to start with, with the support > of PC4War. I will read > > the GPL agreement to be sure this can be done. We > will finance all the > > production and I offer you the regular copyrights > for this, which is 10% > > royalties on all game sold (on the public price). > As Wesnoth will still be > > available freely from your website, I think that > we have to realise a good > > manual to justify for the fact that we sell the > game. Msot probably, we > > will try to sell the game around 29 euros at the > most. Another way to do it > > would be simply to give the game in the magazine, > but it doesn't make a > > real change. I will try to think about his in the > next days, and I wait for > > your adress. Théophile > > www.pc4war.com > > -- > Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es > Work: | Debian: > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 12:40:12 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdxs-0005Uv-H6 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:40:12 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdxn-0005TO-29 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:40:07 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdxk-0005So-Qd for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:40:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdp7-0002ck-Ky for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:31:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSdsb-0005Gs-0l for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:34:45 -0400 Received: from [130.215.36.91] (helo=mail1.wpi.edu) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DScGc-0006f3-N9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 10:51:26 -0400 Received: from mcafee.wpi.edu (MCAFEE.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.86]) by mail1.wpi.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j42El9Kp006116 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:47:11 -0400 Received: from SMTP.WPI.EDU(130.215.36.186) by mcafee.wpi.edu via csmap id 013fc3ba_bb19_11d9_8f40_00304811e63a_13395; Mon, 02 May 2005 10:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [130.215.226.81] (KLEINFEL.RES.WPI.NET [130.215.226.81]) by SMTP.WPI.EDU (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j42El8pa031150 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:47:08 -0400 Message-ID: <42764B9F.9050908@optonline.net> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:47:43 -0500 From: Alex Turner User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Selling Wesnoth? References: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail1.wpi.edu id j42El9Kp006116 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:40:10 -0000 I suppose it's fine, providing that the source is included, and the GPL=20 is satisfied. If he wants to pay 10% off his profits, that sounds great;=20 but he would be making that as a donation; I'd advise against trying to=20 enter into any contracts of any sort. In other news; I have some ideas I want to run by the 'hardcore' MP=20 people, but still can't get to the Wesnoth site or Forums; I assume its=20 not just me still having this problem? -Alex Turner Asa Swain wrote: >Isaac, >I suppose it doesn't hurt to pursue this offer, but I >am suspicious of the idea of "selling" wesnoth. If we >offer a complete version for free on our website, I'm >not sure that a pretty box and manual would justify >people spending money for it. Of course people might >buy it at a store not knowing there is a free version >available. > This man seems like a fan of the game, but he >obviously wants to try to make money off of it. >Between trying to sell us his magazine and offering us >profits from selling Wesnoth, I'm suspicious of his >attempts to make money of the popularity of our game. > I don't mean that I don't trust him, I just >ethically have issues with "selling" an open-source >game. I don't think that that is how we should be >spreading this game. What would we do with the >profits? Defray bandwidth costs? Even if we write a >really good manual, is that worth the 29 euros he >wants to charge? Of course Wesnoth won't reach v1.0 >for quite a while, so we don't have to decide now. A >good manual would make Wesnoth easier to learn and >play, but for now I think finishing the game is more >important. > >-Asa > >P.S. Although before v1.0 writing a HTML or pdf manual >to include with the game might be a good idea. So is >improving our help system, but I like reading manuals >outside of the game.=20 >=20 >--- Isaac Clerencia wrote: > =20 > >>On Saturday, 30 de April de 2005 16:41, you wrote: >> =20 >> >>>Hello Isaac >>> =20 >>> >>>Thank you for you kind answer. I will send you on >>> =20 >>> >>Monday the issue where we >> =20 >> >>>gave Wesnoth (that was four months ago) and also >>> =20 >>> >>the last issue of the >> =20 >> >>>magazine. I just need you adress of course, and >>> =20 >>> >>don't hesitate to send me >> =20 >> >>>the adress of other people of your team. I saw >>> =20 >>> >>that you have many Frenchman >> =20 >> >>>in your team maybe they know about PC4War (I also >>> =20 >>> >>directed some others >> =20 >> >>>magazine in the past years : Vaevictis and >>> =20 >>> >>Cyberstrat=E8ge) I can believe it >> =20 >> >>>it possible to distribute and sell you game like >>> =20 >>> >>this, freely... As a >> =20 >> >>>Fantasy General / Master of Magic fan for years, I >>> =20 >>> >>jump on the ocasion (I >> =20 >> >>>play Wesnoth nearly once every week). What I would >>> =20 >>> >>like to do is try to >> =20 >> >>>finalize with you a "commercial" version, this >>> =20 >>> >>mean a version you could >> =20 >> >>>consider "final" (or at least 1.0), setup a manual >>> =20 >>> >>with you, get all this >> =20 >> >>>boxed and produce the CD, and try to sell them >>> =20 >>> >>through our store >> =20 >> >>>www.store4war.com to start with, with the support >>> =20 >>> >>of PC4War. I will read >> =20 >> >>>the GPL agreement to be sure this can be done. We >>> =20 >>> >>will finance all the >> =20 >> >>>production and I offer you the regular copyrights >>> =20 >>> >>for this, which is 10% >> =20 >> >>>royalties on all game sold (on the public price). >>> =20 >>> >>As Wesnoth will still be >> =20 >> >>>available freely from your website, I think that >>> =20 >>> >>we have to realise a good >> =20 >> >>>manual to justify for the fact that we sell the >>> =20 >>> >>game. Msot probably, we >> =20 >> >>>will try to sell the game around 29 euros at the >>> =20 >>> >>most. Another way to do it >> =20 >> >>>would be simply to give the game in the magazine, >>> =20 >>> >>but it doesn't make a >> =20 >> >>>real change. I will try to think about his in the >>> =20 >>> >>next days, and I wait for >> =20 >> >>>your adress. Th=E9ophile >>>www.pc4war.com >>> =20 >>> >>--=20 >>Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es >>Work: | Debian: >> =20 >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> =20 >>> >>Wesnoth-dev mailing list >>Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >>http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev >> >> =20 >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 >http://mail.yahoo.com=20 > > >_______________________________________________ >Wesnoth-dev mailing list >Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > =20 > From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 12:53:16 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSe7f-0001Z1-AB for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:50:20 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSe61-0000n0-2a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:48:37 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdof-0002oQ-IH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:30:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSdob-0002ck-Pe for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:30:37 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSds4-0006Qe-Ok for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:34:12 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A47F9A925; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id 3E3BD957CD; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363E6957CC; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New naga units In-Reply-To: <9879d1ec8ce6e392b87f03ce692dd837@ll.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:50:16 -0000 I, personally, would prefer that we do not get in the habit of adding units that are not fully animated. On Sun, 1 May 2005, Richard Kettering wrote: > A number of campaign developers have wanted me to flesh out the naga > race. > I have a unit proposal here: > http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77009#77009 > > Anyways, because I'm insanely busy over the next three weeks, with the > end of term and all, I can't animate them right now - however, they're > perfectly fine for use. > I'd like to commit these so they can be used in campaigns and have > their stats ironed out. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 13:43:44 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSexM-0003vW-Il for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:43:44 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSevp-0003Dz-3P for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:42:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSevg-0003CT-GB for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:42:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSeps-0000D4-9C for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:36:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSetL-0001Nh-30 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:39:35 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSVjX-0006OZ-C9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 03:52:51 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j427mcEf017776 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 02:48:40 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005050202483509245 for ; Mon, 02 May 2005 02:48:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Selling Wesnoth? Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 02:48:37 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:43:44 -0000 Story time - a story a number of you probably know. There is a site out there, called OpenOSX.com. This site has a very bad reputation - simply because they package open-source programs and sell them to people on cds. At one point in time, when I was looking for a mac os X copy of the Gimp, and before I was indoctrinated into things unix, I had been under the impression that buying it from them was the only way to get it, which really irritated me, since the program was supposed to be free. On the other hand, a lot of legitimate companies like Red Hat/SuSE make a business out of selling Open Source software, and I'm not aware of people hating on them. ---- I'm not in this wesnoth thing for money - I'm in it for something that money can't buy, which is a professional skillset. So I don't really care either way, and besides the point it's not my decision to make. Cheers, - Richard From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 14:11:40 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSfON-0001Vg-PW for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 14:11:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSfOJ-0001Sy-Fc for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 14:11:36 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSfOA-0001Qg-L5 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 14:11:30 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSfJc-0007pr-SV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 14:06:44 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSfG3-0000p0-Sn for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 14:03:04 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.85] (helo=rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSPMw-0006fV-Ux for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 01 May 2005 21:05:07 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005050201032801400l0h2me>; Mon, 2 May 2005 01:03:28 +0000 Message-ID: <42757C5E.1070607@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:03:26 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Selling Wesnoth? References: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050501223622.80903.qmail@web20521.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:11:37 -0000 I really don't have a problem with someone selling Wesnoth, as long as they follow the terms of the GPL. The GPL is designed not to make software free of cost, but rather to promote Freedom. If we didn't want people to be able to sell it, we should have chosen a license that prohibited that. The fact is, that Théophile is legally entitled according to the GPL to sell Wesnoth and give us nothing for it. Giving us 10% in royalties would be rather generous of him. I also doubt that he would be able to make a serious amount of money out of it -- it's unlikely enough to cover the cost of having the manual printed and the CDs pressed. I would imagine he's doing it simply because he likes the game. If he can make a serious amount of money out of it, well, good for him! David Asa Swain wrote: >Isaac, >I suppose it doesn't hurt to pursue this offer, but I >am suspicious of the idea of "selling" wesnoth. If we >offer a complete version for free on our website, I'm >not sure that a pretty box and manual would justify >people spending money for it. Of course people might >buy it at a store not knowing there is a free version >available. > This man seems like a fan of the game, but he >obviously wants to try to make money off of it. >Between trying to sell us his magazine and offering us >profits from selling Wesnoth, I'm suspicious of his >attempts to make money of the popularity of our game. > I don't mean that I don't trust him, I just >ethically have issues with "selling" an open-source >game. I don't think that that is how we should be >spreading this game. What would we do with the >profits? Defray bandwidth costs? Even if we write a >really good manual, is that worth the 29 euros he >wants to charge? Of course Wesnoth won't reach v1.0 >for quite a while, so we don't have to decide now. A >good manual would make Wesnoth easier to learn and >play, but for now I think finishing the game is more >important. > >-Asa > >P.S. Although before v1.0 writing a HTML or pdf manual >to include with the game might be a good idea. So is >improving our help system, but I like reading manuals >outside of the game. > >--- Isaac Clerencia wrote: > > >>On Saturday, 30 de April de 2005 16:41, you wrote: >> >> >>>Hello Isaac >>> >>> >>>Thank you for you kind answer. I will send you on >>> >>> >>Monday the issue where we >> >> >>>gave Wesnoth (that was four months ago) and also >>> >>> >>the last issue of the >> >> >>>magazine. I just need you adress of course, and >>> >>> >>don't hesitate to send me >> >> >>>the adress of other people of your team. I saw >>> >>> >>that you have many Frenchman >> >> >>>in your team maybe they know about PC4War (I also >>> >>> >>directed some others >> >> >>>magazine in the past years : Vaevictis and >>> >>> >>Cyberstratège) I can believe it >> >> >>>it possible to distribute and sell you game like >>> >>> >>this, freely... As a >> >> >>>Fantasy General / Master of Magic fan for years, I >>> >>> >>jump on the ocasion (I >> >> >>>play Wesnoth nearly once every week). What I would >>> >>> >>like to do is try to >> >> >>>finalize with you a "commercial" version, this >>> >>> >>mean a version you could >> >> >>>consider "final" (or at least 1.0), setup a manual >>> >>> >>with you, get all this >> >> >>>boxed and produce the CD, and try to sell them >>> >>> >>through our store >> >> >>>www.store4war.com to start with, with the support >>> >>> >>of PC4War. I will read >> >> >>>the GPL agreement to be sure this can be done. We >>> >>> >>will finance all the >> >> >>>production and I offer you the regular copyrights >>> >>> >>for this, which is 10% >> >> >>>royalties on all game sold (on the public price). >>> >>> >>As Wesnoth will still be >> >> >>>available freely from your website, I think that >>> >>> >>we have to realise a good >> >> >>>manual to justify for the fact that we sell the >>> >>> >>game. Msot probably, we >> >> >>>will try to sell the game around 29 euros at the >>> >>> >>most. Another way to do it >> >> >>>would be simply to give the game in the magazine, >>> >>> >>but it doesn't make a >> >> >>>real change. I will try to think about his in the >>> >>> >>next days, and I wait for >> >> >>>your adress. Théophile >>>www.pc4war.com >>> >>> >>-- >>Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es >>Work: | Debian: >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>Wesnoth-dev mailing list >>Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >>http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev >> >> >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Wesnoth-dev mailing list >Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 17:25:39 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSiOT-0005Vt-BV for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 17:23:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSiON-0005Sp-2n for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 17:23:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSiOK-0005S6-Vu for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 17:23:49 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSiOJ-0005Rn-8l for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 17:23:47 -0400 Received: from [64.233.184.198] (helo=wproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DSi0e-0007M1-HL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 16:59:20 -0400 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so2509748wra for ; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:54:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=imemSBMb0yR6pBbwXWhF8w7x3rDjS2f09GSamfFWb8LqJurXcJfa26nyhh5+ydyfpHPjcm3XUqPYTDza9EAtBtQSCp4BxBu5TJcEt6/mQmaxkp4/OMDH8i/R3Renzbwq110jjVFaW/U6zq3hIOJpoc+I7vyT0Lp8y/zLHzfYidA= Received: by 10.54.106.1 with SMTP id e1mr775875wrc; Mon, 02 May 2005 13:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.62 with HTTP; Mon, 2 May 2005 13:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:54:36 -0400 From: James Spencer To: John McNabb Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New naga units In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <9879d1ec8ce6e392b87f03ce692dd837@ll.net> Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: James Spencer List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:23:54 -0000 Once more down the road: On 5/2/05, John McNabb wrote: > I, personally, would prefer that we do not get in the habit of adding > units that are not fully animated. >=20 Agreed. For starters. Secondarily, what campaigns are those again? (About the only two answers I'd like are EI or SotBE) From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 02 19:46:24 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DSkcI-0006Xu-Vw for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:46:23 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSkZV-0005re-4O for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:43:29 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DSkZR-0005oo-42 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:43:25 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DSkZQ-0005mb-D4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:43:24 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DSkbz-00012j-4A for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:46:03 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j42NfIEh001104 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:41:22 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005050218412028797 for ; Mon, 02 May 2005 18:41:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: References: <9879d1ec8ce6e392b87f03ce692dd837@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6a8c5fb34edab15b4672e36f41c4f18f@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New naga units Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:41:21 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 23:46:21 -0000 I don't plan on implementing the naga units until I have at least all the base graphics for the following lines done: The guardian line (3 levels) The poison archer line. (3 levels) These may be all the units the race has - I won't know unit they get tested in multi (they are at least as deserving as the saurians of having their own entry in classic) and it can be determined if the race has any outstanding weaknesses that call for a new unit, rather than other changes, to balance them. The are fairly easy to animate, and will receive that treatment in *very* short order (especially so because they require no directional animations). On May 2, 2005, at 3:54 PM, James Spencer wrote: > Once more down the road: > > On 5/2/05, John McNabb wrote: >> I, personally, would prefer that we do not get in the habit of adding >> units that are not fully animated. >> > > Agreed. For starters. > > Secondarily, what campaigns are those again? (About the only two > answers I'd like are EI or SotBE) Any and all. After all, once upon a time, HttT was wesnoth, and EI/SotBE did not exist. I think there will be some VERY interesting works done in the future, which may well put most of our current campaigns that do not themselves change to shame. The units, graphics, and all our code are just paint and a canvas - gameplay and story are the picture. This, however, falls back to an old argument, which I truly don't care to rehash. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 03 22:04:23 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9FO-0007Ov-HE for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:04:22 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9FG-0007Hq-Dm for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:04:15 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9FC-0007Cm-4A for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:04:10 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9FB-0007C3-2h for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:04:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DT9IL-00018a-TY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:07:26 -0400 Received: from [64.233.170.205] (helo=rproxy.gmail.com) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DT4nN-0004g9-ND for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 17:19:09 -0400 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so29226rns for ; Tue, 03 May 2005 14:17:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=RCLmhqh9OBc9owLib/3O4AUeRegtG6ANbPNUEfgI39fOBdkPlAtmg427QZgPrfoiFVFEyKDJBc7q6wiyltflb+v7l+lzCkR+PRpO+UcfoYlGJLKZ2B0oJnzJUxUtZGxyGCbj/RSu/kDMrq+hfymWhNyN6Nb1KAmea7tuTFLmpvs= Received: by 10.11.101.4 with SMTP id y4mr81303cwb; Tue, 03 May 2005 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.119.36 with HTTP; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9b3d01e05050314173a471a5a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:17:08 +0200 From: Guillaume Melquiond To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] MacOSX directory in CVS X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Guillaume Melquiond List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 02:04:19 -0000 Hi, 1) Why is there both a module and a directory called MacOSX? What is the point of having the same files in more than one place in the CVS repository? 2) Why does it contain libtool auto-generated files? 3) Why does it duplicate the intl directory? Is this a specially modified version? 4) Why does it contain freetype headers? Is this a specially modified versi= on? 5) Aren't "*~.nib" backup directories? (maybe not, I don't know) I am itching to simply erase the directory in wesnoth module. And just leave the MacOSX module alone for MacOSX developers, and not bother with it any longer. But there must be some good reasons for this mess, right? Regards, Guillaume The version in the MacOSX directory is Wesnoth 0.8.1. MacOSX/SDLMacOSXMain.* have the executable bit set. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 03 22:54:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DTA0n-0006BG-5c for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:53:21 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTA0g-00069K-6g for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:53:14 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9uG-0003oN-Tv for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:46:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DT9rP-0001Tj-A8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:43:39 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.67] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DT9gL-0000Uz-K2 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:32:13 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DT0CK-0004fY-Jq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 12:24:36 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86AB9A925; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id B38A5957CD; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7CB957CC; Tue, 3 May 2005 11:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:51:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New naga units In-Reply-To: <6a8c5fb34edab15b4672e36f41c4f18f@ll.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 02:53:16 -0000 On Mon, 2 May 2005, Richard Kettering wrote: > I don't plan on implementing the naga units until I have at least all > the base graphics for the following lines done: > > The guardian line (3 levels) > The poison archer line. (3 levels) > > These may be all the units the race has - I won't know unit they get > tested in multi (they are at least as deserving as the saurians of > having their own entry in classic) and it can be determined if the race > has any outstanding weaknesses that call for a new unit, rather than > other changes, to balance them. > > The are fairly easy to animate, and will receive that treatment in > *very* short order (especially so because they require no directional > animations). > This, however, falls back to an old argument, which I truly don't care > to rehash. I really think that we should not include units that are not fully animated, even for testing purposes. We should not be in a rush to get new units into mainline wesnoth. There are, for example, several drake advancements that have good artwork done, but no animations yet. While I would like to see them included, I don't think that they should go in until they are fully animated. This is not because I don't believe that you will finish what you start on these art projects; you have definately demonstrated your persistence in accomplishing the tasks that you set for yourself. The precedent, however, is quite bad, even if we ignore the possibility of the proverbial truck running you over. There are several units that I would like to see go in that are fully animated, such as some of shadow's dwarven units. Surely these deserve consideration and testing before units that have not been animated yet. If testing is absoultely needed on these units, it probably should be done via a mechanism like scott's custom era (at least I think it was scott, since I (still/again) can't check the forum). I also would not oppose the inclusion of the artwork in CVS, but I really don't think that unit files should be included until all the animations are done. OK, I'll shut up now. darth fool -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 04 16:52:41 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DTQrI-0006ge-TX for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 16:52:41 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTQrE-0006eO-He for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 16:52:36 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTQrD-0006dq-F8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 16:52:35 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DTQrD-0006dW-8G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 16:52:35 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.176] (helo=postfix4-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DTQuv-0004Bb-TD for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 16:56:26 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5882530E10F; Wed, 4 May 2005 22:51:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DTQt3-0001At-FN; Wed, 04 May 2005 22:54:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 22:54:29 +0200 To: Guillaume Melquiond Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] MacOSX directory in CVS Message-ID: <20050504205428.GH1281@nowhere.earth> References: <9b3d01e05050314173a471a5a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9b3d01e05050314173a471a5a@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:52:38 -0000 On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 11:17:08PM +0200, Guillaume Melquiond wrote: > I am itching to simply erase the directory in wesnoth module. And just > leave the MacOSX module alone for MacOSX developers, and not bother > with it any longer. But there must be some good reasons for this mess, > right? IMHO, we should keep it here, so the build files and the "Wesnoth Scenario Editor" directory can be kept in sync with wesnoth proper. I also notice that the Wesnoth Scenario Editor does not appear to include any standard wesnoth headers. I wonder how much cut'n'paste there has been. Maybe this would require some work to clean it up ? -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 05 05:01:14 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DTcEM-0007i9-2v for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 05:01:14 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTcEB-0007d3-7v for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 05:01:03 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTcB2-0006un-E9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 04:57:48 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DTbxr-0004U2-Iw for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 04:44:12 -0400 Received: from [143.167.1.4] (helo=marmot.shef.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DTc14-0003Vd-FX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 04:47:30 -0400 Received: from errwood.shef.ac.uk ([143.167.248.24]) by marmot.shef.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) envelope-sender id 1DTbw1-0002ez-Vp; Thu, 05 May 2005 09:42:17 +0100 Received: from ERRWOOD/SpoolDir by errwood.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 5 May 05 09:42:17 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by ERRWOOD (Mercury 1.48); 5 May 05 09:42:17 +0100 Received: from [143.167.140.16] (143.167.140.16) by errwood.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 5 May 05 09:42:08 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sithrandel (Wesnoth) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:42:08 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophie-Scan: No X-Trusted-Sender-Host: errwood.shef.ac.uk Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Re: MacOSX X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:01:04 -0000 > > 1) Why is there both a module and a directory called MacOSX? What is > the point of having the same files in more than one place in the CVS > repository? Why? Incompetence on my part. I am not a CVS expert and clearly my attempt to upload didn't work as well as I'd hoped.... > 2) Why does it contain libtool auto-generated files? > 3) Why does it duplicate the intl directory? Is this a specially > modified version? > 4) Why does it contain freetype headers? Is this a specially modified > version? Lack of tidy-up. The intl was included during all the horrors of trying to get gettext to function. Anything MacOS specific I plonked into the MacOSX directory. Quite a few tweaks were needed to get functionality. As with most of the changes for Wesnoth, I eventually tried to externalise them wherever possible. > 5) Aren't "*~.nib" backup directories? (maybe not, I don't know) Yes... feel free to remove them. > I am itching to simply erase the directory in wesnoth module. And just > leave the MacOSX module alone for MacOSX developers, and not bother > with it any longer. But there must be some good reasons for this mess, > right? Yes... like I said, my CVS incompetence. I have 24 years of programming experience on a whole host of languages and platforms, but this was my first ever attempt to commit to CVS. Sadly the CVS documentation I could find suffered from the usual poor human engineering of being clear only to those who already understand it! Needless to say I messed up... but don't mistake incompetence for some cunning higher purpose :) Feel free to delete anything you wish. Personally, I'd be happy not to have any of the MacOSX files in the CVS. Heaven knows it would be a lot easier for me that way. Some users / developers wanted them, so I have tried to oblige. > IMHO, we should keep it here, so the build files and the "Wesnoth > Scenario Editor" directory can be kept in sync with wesnoth proper. > > I also notice that the Wesnoth Scenario Editor does not appear to > include any standard wesnoth headers. I wonder how much cut'n'paste > there has been. Maybe this would require some work to clean it up ? > No cut and paste at all. The Wesnoth Scenario Editor does not contain *any* Wesnoth code at all. Hence no need for Wesnoth headers. It is a 100% Cocoa application and at present Cocoa and C++ do not mix well. Nor would that be the most efficient way to approach it. The editor reads the configuration and data files from the bundle. A quick look at the code would have explained that as it is quite clearly Cocoa and not Wesnoth derived... or even the fact there are no .c files, only .m :) Similarly, as it is separate code, it cannot be kept in-sync. Like I've said, if the CVS approach is causing consternation then I shall happily return to the approach which has worked perfectly since version 4 of Wesnoth. Just delete the added files and I shall return to the bliss of read only CVS :D Best Wishes Sithrandel From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 05 19:46:44 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DTq3I-0006r6-J6 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 19:46:44 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTq37-0006lw-2X for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 19:46:33 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTq35-0006lD-Dp for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 19:46:31 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DTq2V-0006Fz-Ng for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 19:45:55 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.89] (helo=rwcrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DTpyl-00072O-EE for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 19:42:03 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with ESMTP id <200505052336430140087voae>; Thu, 5 May 2005 23:36:43 +0000 Message-ID: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 18:36:41 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:46:34 -0000 It seems that in 0.9.1, the Ulfserker is seen as underpowered in the multiplayer community. Community representatives (such as Soliton, Noy, and Dragonking) tell me that there is a general consensus among high-level players that the Ulfserker in 0.8.11 (with the 'beserk' ability taking effect on both offense and defense) was both the most 'balanced' and the most fun the Ulfserker has been in multiplayer. It was powerful, but not overpowered, and added alot of fun diversity to the game. As such, I'm going to propose we revert its stats to what they were like in 0.8.11. Any objections? David From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 05 22:05:40 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DTsDj-00054S-Ls for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 22:05:39 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTsDh-00052J-8H for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 22:05:37 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DTsDf-000513-PL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 22:05:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DTsDI-0004GS-SX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 22:05:12 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DTs7V-0001tE-FT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2005 21:59:13 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j461rbEp013419 for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 20:53:50 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005050520534721066 for ; Thu, 05 May 2005 20:53:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> References: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:53:48 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 02:05:38 -0000 > As such, I'm going to propose we revert its stats to what they were > like in 0.8.11. > > Any objections? YES. Huge objections from me and Elvish Pillager. I think those "representatives" have no idea what they are talking about. They say "the squeakiest wheel gets the oil." Please don't fall for that. These people are trying to force the conception they previously had of the unit onto what it has changed into. They're trying to make it be something it is not, and they are pouting when it doesn't work out right. ---- NOT ONLY THAT - Dragonking said the following - "After playing cvs, I think that removing berserk at defence make them perfect.. but this is my personal opinion." http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php? t=5255&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 If the ulfzerker has no special ability active on defense, then nearly a full half of the time he acts normally for defensive purposes, rather than having a ability which is either a severe detriment or severe advantage depending on the situation. Even if the ulfserker is a little bit "worse" in multiplayer, which I highly question, it is vastly better in single-player games now than it was before. > It seems that in 0.9.1, the Ulfserker is seen as underpowered in the > multiplayer community. Community representatives (such as Soliton, > Noy, and Dragonking) tell me that there is a general consensus among > high-level players that the Ulfserker in 0.8.11 (with the 'beserk' > ability taking effect on both offense and defense) was both the most > 'balanced' and the most fun the Ulfserker has been in multiplayer. It > was powerful, but not overpowered, and added alot of fun diversity to > the game. The fundamental thing to remember about the "berserk active on defense" thing is that it is a two-edged sword. It greatly multiplies the current state of the unit - if the unit is at full health, it is very dangerous to attack, if it is at low health, it is in great danger, since it cannot luck out of being killed by an enemy melee attacker. The other thing to remember is that Ulfzerkers, with berserk active on defense, can be killed at full health by many units, even on their chosen ground. Most units of higher levels will eat them for lunch, and many of the same level can do so as well. This is the primary problem with the "old way". This is not a problem in very short deathmatch multi games, but in anything else, it is a severe problem. Please don't reintroduce it. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 06 11:29:23 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DU4kw-0001Dh-0p for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 11:28:46 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DU4kW-0000mu-2X for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 11:28:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DU4j2-0007yG-QP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 11:26:49 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DU4hc-0006KI-Cp for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 11:25:20 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DU4hc-0002w1-Ab for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 11:25:21 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5662E9A93A; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id 3E031957CD; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E72957CC; Fri, 6 May 2005 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker In-Reply-To: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:28:43 -0000 On Thu, 5 May 2005, David White wrote: > It seems that in 0.9.1, the Ulfserker is seen as underpowered in the > multiplayer community. Community representatives (such as Soliton, Noy, > and Dragonking) tell me that there is a general consensus among > high-level players that the Ulfserker in 0.8.11 (with the 'beserk' > ability taking effect on both offense and defense) was both the most > 'balanced' and the most fun the Ulfserker has been in multiplayer. It > was powerful, but not overpowered, and added alot of fun diversity to > the game. > > As such, I'm going to propose we revert its stats to what they were like > in 0.8.11. > > Any objections? > > David To me this sounds like our first shot was too long and our second shot was too short. Perhaps we need to slightly increase the ulfs resistances. I have not heard an argument about how the berserker of old is better balanced than the revised berserker that was convincing. They all centered on strategies for the ulf that should be unbalanced in both cases. I think the berserk on defense really makes the ulf too vulnerable for a dwarf. If this was an orcish unit fine, but I don't think the dwarves should have units that are essentially suicidal. It also makes the unit fairly useless in campaigns where leveling units is critical. I am also not convinced that the ulfserker shouldn't be slightly underpowered. It should not be the primary dwarven unit of choice, but rather a unit that is used for special situations and as such should make up less than 1/4 of any dwarven troops. I wander whether or not, some of the weakness of the old ulf strategy being applied in 0.9.1 is that it depended on Guardsmen who were also weakened (or at least, slowed down) by making tham have only 1 trait. It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that people have developed better tactics at fighting against ulfs during their brief ascendency, so that they would not be even as much 'fun' to play at the 0.8.11 level. As an aside, I think the best way to figure out these multi-player balance issues is to add statistics to the server that record what units people who win recruit, and what units people who lose recruit. I admit that my persepctive on the ulf is entirely tainted by the fact that I do not play multiplayer (no internet at home, and I won't let myself play wesnoth at work) and therefore have not seen first hand the strategies that people have described on the forums. May I suggest an alternate approach to trying to answer the balancing question, and first ask what role in gameplay(single and multi) do we wish for the ulf to play? What role do we view it having in Wesnoth society? The balance of the ulf should derive from these two questions. -john aka Darth Fool P.S. and a completely off the wall suggestion. Perhaps we can please or anger both sides of the argument equally by adding a new berserker-only trait; uncontrollable : berserks on defense as well as offense. Then, roughly 40% of berserkers would be 0.8.11 style, well 60% are 0.9.1 style. Ok, it needs a better name and possibly should be dropped entirely. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 06 19:13:38 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DUC0n-0006NH-9C for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 19:13:37 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUC0h-0006JB-El for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 19:13:32 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUC0f-0006Fe-FJ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 19:13:29 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUC0e-0006Ek-Rw for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 19:13:28 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (helo=sccrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DUC4p-0002Sj-Dm for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 19:17:47 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005050623121301100ifruee>; Fri, 6 May 2005 23:12:14 +0000 Message-ID: <427BF9CB.6030800@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:12:11 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John McNabb Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 23:13:33 -0000 Since some multiplayer players asked for an 'open discussion' of this issue, I've opened a thread about it here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77954#77954 David John McNabb wrote: >On Thu, 5 May 2005, David White wrote: > > >>It seems that in 0.9.1, the Ulfserker is seen as underpowered in the >>multiplayer community. Community representatives (such as Soliton, Noy, >>and Dragonking) tell me that there is a general consensus among >>high-level players that the Ulfserker in 0.8.11 (with the 'beserk' >>ability taking effect on both offense and defense) was both the most >>'balanced' and the most fun the Ulfserker has been in multiplayer. It >>was powerful, but not overpowered, and added alot of fun diversity to >>the game. >> >>As such, I'm going to propose we revert its stats to what they were like >>in 0.8.11. >> >>Any objections? >> >>David >> >> > >To me this sounds like our first shot was too long and our second shot was >too short. Perhaps we need to slightly increase the ulfs resistances. I >have not heard an argument about how the berserker of old is better >balanced than the revised berserker that was convincing. They all >centered on strategies for the ulf that should be unbalanced in both >cases. I think the berserk on defense really makes the ulf too >vulnerable for a dwarf. If this was an orcish unit fine, but I don't >think the dwarves should have units that are essentially suicidal. It >also makes the unit fairly useless in campaigns where leveling units is >critical. > >I am also not convinced that the ulfserker shouldn't be slightly >underpowered. It should not be the primary dwarven unit of choice, but >rather a unit that is used for special situations and as such should make >up less than 1/4 of any dwarven troops. > >I wander whether or not, some of the weakness of the old ulf strategy >being applied in 0.9.1 is that it depended on Guardsmen who were also >weakened (or at least, slowed down) by making tham have only 1 trait. It >also wouldn't surprise me to find out that people have developed better >tactics at fighting against ulfs during their brief ascendency, so that >they would not be even as much 'fun' to play at the 0.8.11 level. > >As an aside, I think the best way to figure out these multi-player balance >issues is to add statistics to the server that record what units people >who win recruit, and what units people who lose recruit. > >I admit that my persepctive on the ulf is entirely tainted by the fact >that I do not play multiplayer (no internet at home, and I won't let >myself play wesnoth at work) and therefore have not seen first hand the >strategies that people have described on the forums. > >May I suggest an alternate approach to trying to answer the balancing >question, and first ask what role in gameplay(single and multi) do we wish >for the ulf to play? What role do we view it having in Wesnoth society? >The balance of the ulf should derive from these two questions. > >-john aka Darth Fool > >P.S. and a completely off the wall suggestion. Perhaps we can please or >anger both sides of the argument equally by adding a new berserker-only >trait; uncontrollable : berserks on defense as well as offense. Then, >roughly 40% of berserkers would be 0.8.11 style, well 60% are 0.9.1 style. >Ok, it needs a better name and possibly should be dropped entirely. > > > From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 07 05:49:20 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DULvz-0002q5-T6 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 05:49:20 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUAbF-00087K-4W for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 17:43:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUAaB-0007cq-Ht for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 17:42:07 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUAaA-0007SI-45 for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 17:42:02 -0400 Received: from [69.17.117.26] (helo=mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DUAcf-0004BJ-2H for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2005 17:44:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 25703 invoked from network); 6 May 2005 21:39:02 -0000 Received: from dsl081-113-168.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.0.3]) (lsimmons@[64.81.113.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 May 2005 21:39:02 -0000 Message-ID: <427BE47E.4030408@lsimmons.net> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 16:41:18 -0500 From: Joseph Simmons User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050116) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 07 May 2005 05:49:16 -0400 Cc: X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:43:09 -0000 The whole idea of berserker makes it unsuitable for campaign purposes. (Who wants to advance a unit that either dies or wastes experience? And who wants to hire a unit in a campaign that you shouldn't advance?) So, its fine to worry about making the ulf balanced and fun for MP, but I think we should not bother with making it good for campaigns. Unless we want to remove the entire idea of berserker as a specialty, or change it per EP's suggestion (to make berserker only work for 3 rounds, not until one side dies). As for making it fun for MP, I actually think EP's suggestion is a good one. It makes the unit less suicidal, but keeps with the idea of the unit, and will make it less extreme, thus easier to balance. -- Joseph Simmons Turin Turambar - Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 07 13:11:58 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DUSqL-0000s5-C3 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 13:11:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUSqF-0000oA-8i for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 13:11:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUSq9-0000lL-Ov for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 13:11:47 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUSq9-0000j2-Aa for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 13:11:45 -0400 Received: from [64.233.170.195] (helo=rproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DUStS-00070l-F9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 07 May 2005 13:15:10 -0400 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so164809rns for ; Sat, 07 May 2005 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=evVx3Hlc/OBPEzJXOiEuNluS+0BqTFBM4qRtAewjOTebEY8SmtdZTJKOuBXZDqRerOE22ZG/liKqaKyODkjB0MuFXKLQEgTqTw/QIBhJDm3sII3zFpBzv4bw73P2i12NVYyZ0sdV88RuyPkWC4T7LYRbnySfuda9vLF11ZXHBpY= Received: by 10.11.101.4 with SMTP id y4mr410890cwb; Sat, 07 May 2005 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.119.36 with HTTP; Sat, 7 May 2005 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9b3d01e05050710097fe60228@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:09:26 +0200 From: Guillaume Melquiond To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] New WML preprocessor now in CVS X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Guillaume Melquiond List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:11:53 -0000 Hi, Thanks to a 4-day vacation, I finally had time to finish the new WML preprocessor I had mentioned a long time ago. Except for TRoW [1], all the mainline campaigns seem to load fine. Consequently, I have committed a first version, so that it gets broader testing. First, concerning the performances. The good news: instead of requiring the whole preprocessed output to be stored in memory, it can now work on the fly. The preprocessing is done as soon as the tokenizer (or whatever is reading the preprocessed output) has emptied its input buffer. The bad news: it is slower due to the amount of information inlined in the preprocessed stream in order to perform full error location (load TRoW to see what I mean) and smart textdomain tracking (see below). But anyway, once the preprocessed stream has been cached, there is no performance difference: the binary parser has been left unchanged. The new preprocessor uses a recursive grammar, I already sent it to the list and posted it on the forum. But I guess almost nobody understood it, so I will just show the differences between the old and the new preprocessor. The old one could not parse this sentence {MACRO1 ({MACRO2 (A B)} C)} because the first right parentheses would have matched the first left parenthesis. See bug #10995 for a real scenario example. The old preprocessor was also unable to handle nested conditional directive= s: #ifdef A #ifdef B xxx#else yyy#endif #endif If A was not defined, it would have simply output "yyy" (whatever B and without any error message) instead of outputting nothing as it could be expected. Macro definitions are the only part of the grammar that is not recursive: you can't nest a #define...#enddef inside another one, and you can't quote or comment #enddef. Concerning #textdomain tracking, it is the only part that doesn't follow my initial proposal, it is a bit clever now (and Yann won't have to enhance wmlxgettext). Consider this example: #textdomain tda #define A B _"Something in tda" + {B}#enddef ... #textdomain tdb message=3D{A _"Something in tdb"} The translation of "Something in tda" won't be taken in the "tdb" domain (where it will be included), it will be correctly searched in the "tda" domain (where it is first defined). Moreover, the argument "Something in tdb" of the macro won't be translated in "tda", but in "tdb" (where it is defined). Finally, text domains are no more WML-scoped, they last as long as no new #textdomain directive has been encountered, and they get reset at end of file and end of macro. I will post part of this mail on the forum, so that campaign designers are aware of the change. So if you have any question/remark that does not concern the implementation but the grammar, it can/should be posted on the forum. Best regards, Guillaume [1] A small error with [time_area]. It doesn't prevent to play the campaign. I'm still looking into why it fails. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 08 00:35:46 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DUdUo-0008SC-4Z for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 00:34:26 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUdUZ-0008JU-NH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 00:34:12 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUdUN-0008CQ-CM for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 00:34:00 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUdUM-00089l-Gc for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 00:33:58 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.85] (helo=rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DUdXT-0001FM-Ap for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 00:37:11 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005050804312001400g0s56e>; Sun, 8 May 2005 04:31:20 +0000 Message-ID: <427D9615.1020603@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 23:31:17 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guillaume Melquiond Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New WML preprocessor now in CVS References: <9b3d01e05050710097fe60228@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9b3d01e05050710097fe60228@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 04:34:18 -0000 Guillaume Melquiond wrote: >Hi, > >Thanks to a 4-day vacation, I finally had time to finish the new WML >preprocessor I had mentioned a long time ago. Except for TRoW [1], all >the mainline campaigns seem to load fine. Consequently, I have >committed a first version, so that it gets broader testing. > > Seems to work very nicely; the new error reporting is excellent. Good work. :) David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 08 16:24:25 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DUsK9-0002ur-Om for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 16:24:25 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUsK7-0002tq-EZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 16:24:23 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUsK6-0002sz-1N for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 16:24:22 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUsK5-0002s3-RE for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 16:24:21 -0400 Received: from [204.127.198.39] (helo=rwcrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DUsO1-0003in-CJ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 16:28:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20050508202225015006v3ufe>; Sun, 8 May 2005 20:22:25 +0000 Message-ID: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 15:22:20 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:24:23 -0000 Perhaps we can add a simple module system to Wesnoth very easily: by adding a WML command called 'import'. It would work something like this, import "path" and would have the effect of loading the WML document at 'path' and inserting it into the current document. This would be similiar to {path} but have some important differences: - 'import' is a WML-level command, not a pre-processor command. So, importation comes *after* pre-processing. - the document in 'path' is first parsed as an independent WML document, and then attached to the current document - the document in 'path' must be a valid WML document on its own. If there is an error in it, an error message will be logged, but the original document can still be loaded, just without the import occurring. - the 'path' given to 'import' could contain wild cards, which would be expanded into a list of paths, each of which would be imported one after the other. We could then fairly simply put this in game.cfg to try to import user-campaigns: import "~/campaigns/*.cfg" This idea isn't nearly as sophisticated as silene's module system proposal some time ago, but on the other hand I think it is much easier to implement. The main thing it does provide is assurance against being unable to load the game's core WML document because a user campaign has an error. Any thoughts? David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 08 17:07:39 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DUszz-00064r-4g for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 17:07:39 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUszs-00061p-TM for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 17:07:32 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DUswY-00050B-MZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 17:04:11 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DUswX-0004qa-34 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 17:04:05 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DUst3-0004V3-Ga for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 08 May 2005 17:00:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j48KsRE10729; Sun, 8 May 2005 20:54:27 GMT Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:54:27 GMT Message-Id: <200505082054.j48KsRE10729@server1.dns.net> From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] About the ulfserker References: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 21:07:33 -0000 --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 06:36:41PM -0500, David White wrote: > It seems that in 0.9.1, the Ulfserker is seen as underpowered in the > multiplayer community. >From 0.9.0, we removed berserk-on-defence, which made the unit very powerful in the eyes of some people (though I am not completely convinced of this). We then lowered resistances to compensate, and now the unit appears underpowered. The way I understood the comments by active MP players, the main gripe with Ulfs right now are the lowered resistances. To consider a commonly cited example, it is claimed this will make an Ulf lose against a Thief in grassland, when attacking. As far as I can tell, the berserk-on-attack-only issue is relatively minor in comparison. If we raise resistances somewhat, the issue is likely to shift to berserk-on-defence again. While composing this message, I realised neither side really had any facts to back up their arguments, just general comments based on common sense. I therefore thought about how to calculate the exact probabilities of units killing each other in a single skirmish, and put these into a perl script "prkill" so that we would have some facts to inform this debate. See http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5867 for the first version of this script. I also attach it here for ease of reference. In light initial testing, the output of prkill for Ulfserkers attacking other units like Thieves and Drakes seems to confirm some of the concerns of people like Dragonking. In particular, the presence or absence of specific traits like strong and resilient can dramatically change the probabilities of which unit dies. Simply put, berserk amplifies the effect of traits and can lead to non-intuitive %-to-kill outcomes. Instead of talking in generalities, I think it would be useful to look at specific combinations of stats and see how they perform, especially in the presence of traits. I would also appreciate critical review of prkill, especially from those people here who are not intimidated by basic probability theory. -- ott@gaon.net --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="prkill11.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQAAAAIABmhqDLez5v/kgUAAOcNAAAGABAAcHJraWxsVVgMALpVfkKyVX5C9QH1Aa1X 227bRhB9jr5iatEIJVPXpDfKiuugQR9rJEBf0sCgyJW1kLikd0lJRpB/75ndpUXZCoo01QP3 NjM7c3Zu6v4wqo0eLaQalUJvOl1Kk01ab5JKUKmLRbKQG1k9ULEkIauV0FQrWdFabjZS3RF2 qLDbUlFCZi11Ls0KYgblU/6VrCrw8Nn90zMtUiG3LDFL8uROMJEis8OO4bkARVXr9lbmSQl6 k6nTVBizrDeOggl0w9Omaw5zSlRGg4K1KgupKitzTwuhjdDrKwr9DExJVSXpOqK6pKqgV2PS Ra0y02OOLW2FXhRGUF5kAmxmVexa1klh7E1pnTOocov1stAkknTltGExwXuxlUYWKqbJcEJB p2PqBaWrggV/7hB++QMFiuZkVnJZzexyfbzUWE6G45klt4dgGPBMLvn7plk7CmhhlQjHw2EY rAeTXo8+s5T+nMJADYLb3oj3MdIXy+HhBFggm3W+dDo11PtDVEVZxfGHKpvZjW2iDd3vQgqw f6vckLmhdEPuhns3aDcUbhBu2FNv1smkgL9t8LJ0Z68x4UsVZ3EZ5/F9rOMiFvF++xKUXdgY etmXNGFTSs2ant3oj7/TmzmdRf7ui3FEZ58YrPH4/G91NiOxh0t/acnIviLDCWDeY84O4//X u/dv//zwjjzZdmZ382Tv3IXmXviertiJ8NTQm2nCYFUmUZDld/jyzOyS3iN5HjmV3FC6QfVm DefCcuLLM7NbHDgLR6vdcO8GwZd2CRZdU1bAG310IH4/5tFwOOxFdBy6lQ2SiJrgi6gJvZHd +GSdtdS3SbURiakAW7e1DKevPXk0Hr6GtAFL+7kR9iPHpQ8E7+dhAJthqIJlbM1vt7PHELhh 7A/LfII1nigED11QgJAGrCPwHTs53B8Uk+EwUNbLb+hi7uMr5HvWPeqDouz3/TScDIKy1+/b SFj3noRAcGPd/2swqijf/3cYF6LaCaEaGP0y/Dj5lfDQEcOZ3/W+AUzYl++fIgrhqkCS14li tU2jdtvM1iNaKY8SBsdHLeEWFzYEfg8LrALw6EVzq5cc8jZnJBxcEaYxpsQoW16p/pX38gQv HqTYZGQe8lxUWqacmzmr0mBAu0KvDe1WgvFPaI7UuVuAQQmR8dtUyZpfD7MkTRGwFWpbwh9A Y0tenjwwYrRKtgJlAnLyZM0VK9lw2WyelaQYcsLlSy7tHZ2uf1gumuY2qzVz8ete2zpq6C35 TSsCaTqyNQM3414j0kJlV7iiedDn2SI6kQfsgzjmJoisiO4JU8XdkNT8l4i1nr/iYTF/HcNc rxFXrEcknBj/GGOySdNZy9dazf2agwdp9NwdXHDCc25HRa1RMLeiUcn2EDuJ6nEA3IYV0j73 Fb5sH7lmExhs+8DjYWFgUHCxwwjl9UWfsMdRPXniuRZJsIQeqKtAxVZnh2WPC4t1KzmofLku E6kjWtQVNMnqVJCRCt8a5m6t8/rtz4cAlFFQR8G2ncoOpRSZSzJIIwJFP6gBE9w/BEdzcs4n Dr0muL7bmb7fl/5HH/iaVyJYNdpLJQ7+oF5WziU2G+5mfDfYVIOKq8FpzyBrFftB1HnB9Fbf S1cwr/yjWV0jq7n94ij2BmBtvelQetSUK70DhfOQcrS2AB2oKqY65XbE2LZUefNMlanTwenD mrgt65io4e1yBMMbH8eN1k1ssZzYaukr59SVzk5TE11HGaJnRP/32Kb0MQudH7BCPSTWQwOa eoDbzvcNPuRxYb1QfiHtgFM6PS35uZRTt6lo8ih76mRP/brpytglbTe3pLPzaUbnPw2ny+df dHV4FQ4adId9qOgnN80knTY7DudDh3iNfyF6azt8vgxxyM0//y9C8SjQF7V6QTdwI8lt6c2k D5HoSm1T2RL59ljk9TeInB6J/AdQSwECFQMUAAAACAAZoagy3s+b/5IFAADnDQAABgAMAAAA AAABAABA7YEAAAAAcHJraWxsVVgIALpVfkKyVX5CUEsFBgAAAAABAAEAQAAAAMYFAAAAAA== --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 09 14:49:08 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVDJS-00015v-HX for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 14:49:07 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVDJN-00011u-V2 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 14:49:02 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVDJG-0000z5-Kf for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 14:48:54 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVDJG-0000vw-Hd for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 14:48:54 -0400 Received: from [64.233.170.207] (helo=rproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVDGr-0005r3-2B for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 14:46:25 -0400 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so166105rny for ; Mon, 09 May 2005 11:40:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=emZ18XEPx/m7JxCH6FQA35I4yZmwQtB+MqNEZC5AsgPK7ZF2Mm1a2si/ycJsBDNIppsiX3y5id5DMcXlwVo1t9XX+Fm+FFc92YtjWXHW6nKmv+O1MVEQfQvEDRzilwBeh88r04ygyOQUjxcGnFlWxHzMNnwvuWpysut7aWf5Osw= Received: by 10.11.119.11 with SMTP id r11mr573720cwc; Mon, 09 May 2005 11:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.119.36 with HTTP; Mon, 9 May 2005 11:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:40:11 +0200 From: Guillaume Melquiond To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import In-Reply-To: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Guillaume Melquiond List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:49:05 -0000 On 5/8/05, David White wrote: > Perhaps we can add a simple module system to Wesnoth very easily: by > adding a WML command called 'import'. It would work something like this, >=20 > import "path" >=20 > Any thoughts? I have one concern. User campaigns (as do mainline campaigns) rely on some core macros; for example MENU_IMG_TXT. If imported, the campaigns won't know about these macros (it's even worse, they redefine them then, because they believe it is an old Wesnoth version). So the user campaigns would have to preprocess the core macros too, in order for them to be available. This is not an issue: it would not be the first change to WML that is not backward compatible. But I was wondering if you had another solution in mind in order to deal with the #defines. Regards, Guillaume From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 09 17:27:47 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVFn1-0006dY-3S for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 17:27:47 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVFmx-0006bL-MR for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 17:27:45 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVFmw-0006as-Si for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 17:27:43 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVFfR-0003W9-FW for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 17:19:57 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.176] (helo=postfix4-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVFXV-0004Vg-Cq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 17:11:45 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147A43192F2; Mon, 9 May 2005 23:05:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DVFUm-000495-K7; Mon, 09 May 2005 23:08:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:08:56 +0200 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import Message-ID: <20050509210855.GI1281@nowhere.earth> References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 21:27:45 -0000 On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 03:22:20PM -0500, David White wrote: > This idea isn't nearly as sophisticated as silene's module system > proposal some time ago, but on the other hand I think it is much easier > to implement. The main thing it does provide is assurance against being > unable to load the game's core WML document because a user campaign has > an error. > > Any thoughts? What striked me as most useful in silene's proposal was that another safeguard: if a user campaign redefines a standard unit, that modified unit would only be seen by the relevant campaign. I do not think your "import" idea would protect us from such a case, which is probably harder to pinpoint than a "simple" error. That said, I still have a strong opinion that such a way of doing things (eg. overriding a standard unit) is very bad practice, and that eg. distinct units starting as copies of standard ones should be used instead. Maybe we could have a safeguard against such a practice, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement one. -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 09 18:04:05 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGM6-00040T-Bg for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:04:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGLw-0003wO-1G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:03:52 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGLr-0003vT-B7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:03:47 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGLq-0003tz-PJ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:03:46 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.56] (helo=sccrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVGOv-0002Av-PK for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:06:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005050922004201200ss4kfe>; Mon, 9 May 2005 22:00:42 +0000 Message-ID: <427FDD89.108@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:00:41 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guillaume Melquiond Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 22:03:54 -0000 Guillaume Melquiond wrote: >On 5/8/05, David White wrote: > > >>Perhaps we can add a simple module system to Wesnoth very easily: by >>adding a WML command called 'import'. It would work something like this, >> >>import "path" >> >>Any thoughts? >> >> > >I have one concern. User campaigns (as do mainline campaigns) rely on >some core macros; for example MENU_IMG_TXT. If imported, the campaigns >won't know about these macros (it's even worse, they redefine them >then, because they believe it is an old Wesnoth version). So the user >campaigns would have to preprocess the core macros too, in order for >them to be available. This is not an issue: it would not be the first >change to WML that is not backward compatible. But I was wondering if >you had another solution in mind in order to deal with the #defines. > > Yes, my solution to that was the same as yours: they would have to preprocess the core macros too, by specifying 'standard' Wesnoth cfg files to {include}. This would be somewhat inefficient, but how bad it would be I'm not sure. David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 09 18:15:19 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGX1-00025D-0d for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:15:19 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGWz-00023m-1e for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:15:17 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGWy-00023S-E7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:15:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVGWy-00023P-Am for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:15:16 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.56] (helo=sccrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVGXD-0004up-MF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 18:15:31 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005050922091601200srni5e>; Mon, 9 May 2005 22:09:16 +0000 Message-ID: <427FDF8B.5020205@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:09:15 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yann Dirson Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> <20050509210855.GI1281@nowhere.earth> In-Reply-To: <20050509210855.GI1281@nowhere.earth> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 22:15:17 -0000 Yann Dirson wrote: >On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 03:22:20PM -0500, David White wrote: > > >>This idea isn't nearly as sophisticated as silene's module system >>proposal some time ago, but on the other hand I think it is much easier >>to implement. The main thing it does provide is assurance against being >>unable to load the game's core WML document because a user campaign has >>an error. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >> > >What striked me as most useful in silene's proposal was that another >safeguard: if a user campaign redefines a standard unit, that modified >unit would only be seen by the relevant campaign. I do not think your >"import" idea would protect us from such a case, which is probably >harder to pinpoint than a "simple" error. > >That said, I still have a strong opinion that such a way of doing >things (eg. overriding a standard unit) is very bad practice, and that >eg. distinct units starting as copies of standard ones should be used >instead. Maybe we could have a safeguard against such a practice, >although I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement one. > > Well, I think the simple, easy, and correct solution is simply to forbid campaigns from re-definining units. Only the first unit with a certain ID will be used; others will be rejected. If user campaigns want to 'redefine' a unit, they can create an identical one, with a slightly different ID. However your point does raise another problem: by 'default', the [+units] syntax used to add more units wouldn't work in an imported document. We'd probably have to make importing have the capacity to do this. David From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 10 09:22:48 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVUhD-0001G0-JC for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 09:22:48 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVUgx-0001A3-CC for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 09:22:33 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVUeu-0000As-Sr for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 09:20:25 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVUes-0008PU-30 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 09:20:22 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVUT4-0007pF-Nk for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 09:08:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4AD1j217835; Tue, 10 May 2005 13:01:45 GMT Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:58:53 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: <20050510125853.GA8766@dns.net> References: <427AAE09.3080502@comcast.net> <200505082054.j48KsRE10729@server1.dns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200505082054.j48KsRE10729@server1.dns.net> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] prkill version 1.2 (was: About the ulfserker) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:22:37 -0000 I have posted a fixed version 1.2 of prkill (perl script to calculate %-to-kill probabilities), since version 1.1 had an error in reduce() that could lead to incorrect calculations, in some cases highly significant. It's available from http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78301#78301 This functionality is now also available in CVS in-game from the "Damage Calculations" dialogue. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 10 15:11:16 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVa8S-0001eF-BQ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 15:11:16 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVa8G-0001XT-50 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 15:11:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVa8D-0001Vs-ES for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 15:11:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVa8D-0001VX-AU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 15:11:01 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.44] (helo=postfix3-1.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DVaCM-0006h5-8b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 15:15:18 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20BF1735DF; Tue, 10 May 2005 21:08:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DVa9W-0008Et-Rm; Tue, 10 May 2005 21:12:22 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:12:22 +0200 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import Message-ID: <20050510191222.GK1281@nowhere.earth> References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> <427FDD89.108@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <427FDD89.108@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:11:08 -0000 On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 05:00:41PM -0500, David White wrote: > Guillaume Melquiond wrote: > > >On 5/8/05, David White wrote: > > > > > >>Perhaps we can add a simple module system to Wesnoth very easily: by > >>adding a WML command called 'import'. It would work something like this, > >> > >>import "path" > >> > >>Any thoughts? > >> > >> > > > >I have one concern. User campaigns (as do mainline campaigns) rely on > >some core macros; for example MENU_IMG_TXT. If imported, the campaigns > >won't know about these macros (it's even worse, they redefine them > >then, because they believe it is an old Wesnoth version). So the user > >campaigns would have to preprocess the core macros too, in order for > >them to be available. This is not an issue: it would not be the first > >change to WML that is not backward compatible. But I was wondering if > >you had another solution in mind in order to deal with the #defines. > > > > > Yes, my solution to that was the same as yours: they would have to > preprocess the core macros too, by specifying 'standard' Wesnoth cfg > files to {include}. > > This would be somewhat inefficient, but how bad it would be I'm not sure. The time to build the cache on ipaq is already very important today (several minutes). Although I have not looked in details where the problem lies, I suspect such a change would not make things better in this respect. -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 10 17:02:53 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DVbsT-0008Tm-9d for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:02:53 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVbsQ-0008Su-Kp for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:02:50 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DVbqi-0007eh-PY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:01:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DVbqe-0007S5-5h for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:01:00 -0400 Received: from [209.91.179.3] (helo=zeus.webhart.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DVbpJ-0000Vs-JL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 16:59:37 -0400 Received: from [209.91.176.17] (pem-tcs2-port7.vianet.ca [209.91.176.17]) by zeus.webhart.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j4AKr6rY010268 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 16:53:06 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <20050510191222.GK1281@nowhere.earth> References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> <427FDD89.108@comcast.net> <20050510191222.GK1281@nowhere.earth> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <10cb1f7823ff01679935342ae8d82abb@coolhemp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ben Anderman Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:53:09 -0400 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 209.91.179.31 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:02:51 -0000 What if it kept a cache of some files, so that when other files included them, they wouldn't have to be reread/parsed? I'm not sure how it would tell which ones to cache (I'm pretty sure caching them all would be a bad idea,) but there might be a good way to do it. Ben (crimson_penguin) On May 10, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Yann Dirson wrote: > On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 05:00:41PM -0500, David White wrote: >> Guillaume Melquiond wrote: >> >>> On 5/8/05, David White wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Perhaps we can add a simple module system to Wesnoth very easily: by >>>> adding a WML command called 'import'. It would work something like >>>> this, >>>> >>>> import "path" >>>> >>>> Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I have one concern. User campaigns (as do mainline campaigns) rely on >>> some core macros; for example MENU_IMG_TXT. If imported, the >>> campaigns >>> won't know about these macros (it's even worse, they redefine them >>> then, because they believe it is an old Wesnoth version). So the user >>> campaigns would have to preprocess the core macros too, in order for >>> them to be available. This is not an issue: it would not be the first >>> change to WML that is not backward compatible. But I was wondering if >>> you had another solution in mind in order to deal with the #defines. >>> >>> >> Yes, my solution to that was the same as yours: they would have to >> preprocess the core macros too, by specifying 'standard' Wesnoth cfg >> files to {include}. >> >> This would be somewhat inefficient, but how bad it would be I'm not >> sure. > > The time to build the cache on ipaq is already very important today > (several minutes). Although I have not looked in details where the > problem lies, I suspect such a change would not make things better in > this respect. > > -- > Yann Dirson | > Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: > | Freedom, Power, Stability, > Gratis > http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 11 21:05:45 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DW291-0006bO-00 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:05:43 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DW28m-0006RT-6X for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:05:28 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DW28h-0006Pv-Ls for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:05:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DW28f-0006If-Co for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:05:22 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DW2CA-0000cG-HN for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:08:58 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j4C122Eh000498 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 20:02:06 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005051120020416791 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 20:02:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7e227413d76aaae268c5f6bb5435f635@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:02:05 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] New music? X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:05:30 -0000 There's a song linked here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78914#78914 ... which I think is easily good enough to go mainline. It is, I think, somewhat better than some of the other songs we have already. The song loops well, and though it's a bit bland at the start, it gets reasonably interesting in the center, without losing the balance it had at the start. I suppose Dave should have the say on this, but I just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. - Richard From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 11 21:39:00 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DW2fD-0002Xi-Mk for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:38:59 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DW2eB-0002C7-QT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:37:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DW2e1-00025Q-Or for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:37:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DW2dy-00020C-Lg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:37:42 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (helo=sccrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DW2ZK-0005IW-RW for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 21:32:54 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20050512012609011000hkq3e>; Thu, 12 May 2005 01:26:09 +0000 Message-ID: <4282B0AE.2060502@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:26:06 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New music? References: <7e227413d76aaae268c5f6bb5435f635@ll.net> In-Reply-To: <7e227413d76aaae268c5f6bb5435f635@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:38:58 -0000 Richard Kettering wrote: > There's a song linked here: > > http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78914#78914 > > ... which I think is easily good enough to go mainline. > It is, I think, somewhat better than some of the other songs we have > already. > > The song loops well, and though it's a bit bland at the start, it gets > reasonably interesting in the center, without losing the balance it > had at the start. > > > I suppose Dave should have the say on this, but I just wanted to bring > this to everyone's attention. Yes, I agree. I don't know much about music, but it sounds good to me. :) If any developer wants to add it, go ahead. We also desperately need some musicians, so anything we could do to encourage him to contribute would be nice. David From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 12 15:59:33 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWJqG-0001T0-P9 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:59:33 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWJqC-0001R4-R4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:59:29 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWJqB-0001QN-Bx for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:59:27 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWJps-0000oL-K9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:59:09 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.44] (helo=postfix3-1.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWJmw-0006PT-QR for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 12 May 2005 15:56:07 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86D717350B; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DWJjf-0001r9-Eo; Thu, 12 May 2005 21:52:43 +0200 Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:52:43 +0200 To: Ben Anderman Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] A WML idea: import Message-ID: <20050512195243.GN1281@nowhere.earth> References: <427E74FC.6040403@comcast.net> <9b3d01e05050911403120e19f@mail.gmail.com> <427FDD89.108@comcast.net> <20050510191222.GK1281@nowhere.earth> <10cb1f7823ff01679935342ae8d82abb@coolhemp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10cb1f7823ff01679935342ae8d82abb@coolhemp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:59:29 -0000 On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 04:53:09PM -0400, Ben Anderman wrote: > What if it kept a cache of some files, so that when other files > included them, they wouldn't have to be reread/parsed? I'm not sure how > it would tell which ones to cache (I'm pretty sure caching them all > would be a bad idea,) but there might be a good way to do it. Hm, I wonder whether this idea could not be useful in the current situation as well. As I understand it, we first read game.cfg without campaign symbols defined, to produce the main game cache, and then when a campaign is read, we re-read all the same files, plus the relevant campaign. Right ? If we structure the cache as contents of individal files, then we may be able to turn the campaign caches as increments of the main cache, thus gaining both in read/parse time, and in on-disk cache size. How does that sound ? -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 13 10:26:09 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWb7A-0007xl-J1 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:26:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWb73-0007uA-Q0 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:26:01 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWb70-0007sn-KS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWb70-0007rO-DE for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:25:58 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWbAm-00034B-Jt for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:29:52 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7789A935 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id D10BE957CD; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C907C957CC for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] proposed change to soulless X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:26:06 -0000 All, The soulless currently is one of the worst level 1 units. Few people notice this since it is fairly rare to get one from an advancing walking corpse, especially since it often can be a handicap since the upkeep makes it violate the economic advantage of having WCs. In consequence I would like to propose the following changes to the soulless: 1) change the 7-2 to 7-3. This will bring it up to be on par with other weak level 1 units, but dealing impact damage (which many units have good resistance to). 2) change plague to plague(Walking Corpse). This will make the soulless special attack identical to the Walking Corpse special. Thoughts? Objections? If none, I will go ahead and make this change. john (aka darth fool) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 13 10:37:10 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWbHq-0001g4-5z for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:37:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWbHl-0001ef-7p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:37:05 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWbHh-0001cw-OZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:37:02 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWbHh-0001cC-8J for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:37:01 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWbLE-0005cI-K4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:40:40 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD58C9A8C3 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id AFC15957CD; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B9A957CC for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:33:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:37:07 -0000 All, Jetryl has some time ago proposed adding poison resistance, a feature he would especially like to have for new Naga units. Although he is not quite ready to animate them, I believe that it is time to impliment this feature. I have poked around in the code and think that the following proposed functionality would be pretty straight-forward to impliment and will do so if noone objects: 0) resistance will have the usual meaning ie 100% resistance means you take full damage from poison (currently 8 pts) 1) units with no explicit poison resistance will be assumed to have 100%. 2) the resistance will be applied at the time of damage taking, not at the time of poisoning. Thus, if a unit who is already poisoned has its resistances changed for some reason, the amount of damage he takes from that poison will change. 3) a unit with 0% poison resistance will take no damage, but still be considered poisoned. This will prevent the unit from being healed and will require a full round next to a curer or in a village to remove. 4) I would propose that non-undead units that use poison (currently the orcish assassin, dire-wolf rider and a few monsters) be given a 50% resistance to poison at their lowest poisoning level, and 100% resistance at higher levels. Thoughts? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 13 15:56:33 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWgGu-0002La-OS for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:56:32 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWgGs-0002Kb-CH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:56:30 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWgGr-0002KD-IG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:56:29 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWf9Y-0003Vr-Vg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:44:53 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.62] (helo=postfix4-1.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWf6y-0005dU-7D for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:42:20 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35157317804; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:34:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DWf36-00061a-CD; Fri, 13 May 2005 20:38:12 +0200 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:38:11 +0200 To: John McNabb Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Message-ID: <20050513183811.GP1281@nowhere.earth> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:56:30 -0000 On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 10:33:33AM -0400, John McNabb wrote: > 0) resistance will have the usual meaning ie 100% resistance means you > take full damage from poison (currently 8 pts) [...] > 3) a unit with 0% poison resistance will take no damage Hm, that would be rather counter-intuitive... -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 13 18:42:58 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirZ-00085f-AU for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:33 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirL-000813-Of for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirE-0007xj-2G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:12 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirC-0007s2-8e for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:10 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.89] (helo=rwcrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWiuU-0008En-L8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:45:34 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with ESMTP id <2005051322382101400ceh3ke>; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:38:22 +0000 Message-ID: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:38:19 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John McNabb Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:42:29 -0000 John McNabb wrote: >All, > Jetryl has some time ago proposed adding poison resistance, a >feature he would especially like to have for new Naga units. Although he >is not quite ready to animate them, I believe that it is time to >impliment this feature. > I'm really not so much in favor of poison resistance. I think it adds unnecessary complexity to what should be a simple ability. David From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 13 18:50:15 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirW-00084p-W3 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:32 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirO-00082C-NL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:23 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirC-0007xD-Rg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:11 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DWirB-0007s2-Vf for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:42:10 -0400 Received: from [204.127.198.39] (helo=rwcrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DWiui-0008HQ-Qg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:45:48 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005051322383601500cv91le>; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:38:36 +0000 Message-ID: <42852C6A.2070107@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:38:34 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John McNabb Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] proposed change to soulless References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:42:27 -0000 John McNabb wrote: >All, > The soulless currently is one of the worst level 1 units. Few >people notice this since it is fairly rare to get one from an advancing >walking corpse, especially since it often can be a handicap since the >upkeep makes it violate the economic advantage of having WCs. In >consequence I would like to propose the following changes to the soulless: >1) change the 7-2 to 7-3. This will bring it up to be on par with other >weak level 1 units, but dealing impact damage (which many units have good >resistance to). >2) change plague to plague(Walking Corpse). This will make the soulless >special attack identical to the Walking Corpse special. > >Thoughts? Objections? If none, I will go ahead and make this change. > > This sounds good to me. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 14 13:39:46 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DX0c5-000491-2J for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 13:39:45 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DX0c1-00047p-1a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 13:39:41 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DX0bz-00047O-4F for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 13:39:39 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DX0ZJ-0003N6-UG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 13:36:53 -0400 Received: from [81.228.8.164] (helo=pne-smtpout2-sn2.hy.skanova.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DX0PB-0003pJ-RS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 13:26:26 -0400 Received: from [192.168.111.2] (213.64.183.203) by pne-smtpout2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (7.1.026.7) id 42662CF100683BF3; Sat, 14 May 2005 19:19:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> References: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Susanna_Bj=F6rverud?= Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:18:59 +0200 To: David White X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:39:42 -0000 Hej allesammans, 2005-05-14 kl. 00.38 skrev David White: > John McNabb wrote: > >> All, >> Jetryl has some time ago proposed adding poison resistance, a >> feature he would especially like to have for new Naga units. >> Although he is not quite ready to animate them, I believe that it is >> time to impliment this feature. >> > I'm really not so much in favor of poison resistance. I think it adds > unnecessary complexity to what should be a simple ability. I really agree with Dave on this one, I do not think poison resistance is a good idea. /Sanna From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 14 17:07:45 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DX3rM-0004uz-6Z for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 17:07:44 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DX3rK-0004tt-Mz for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 17:07:42 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DX3oo-0003yj-TQ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 17:05:10 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DX3om-0003ow-Mh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 17:05:04 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DX3Vt-0004zX-LL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2005 16:45:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4EKc7f05790; Sat, 14 May 2005 20:38:07 GMT Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:36:06 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Message-ID: <20050514203606.GA13421@dns.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:07:43 -0000 On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 10:33:33AM -0400, John McNabb wrote: > 0) resistance will have the usual meaning ie 100% resistance means you > take full damage from poison (currently 8 pts) > 1) units with no explicit poison resistance will be assumed to have 100%. To clarify: resistance is currently a value from 0 to 200. 100 is usually written as "0% resistance" (resistance does not affect damage), 0 is "100% resistance" (damage on successful strike is always 1) and 200 is "-100% resistance" (double damage on successful strike). Since we moved to RATE calculations, we could in theory extend the resistance range: -100 would be "heals 100% of the strike value on successful strike" and 300 would be "treble damage on successful strike". This kind of tweaking would be easy to implement, it is easy to understand and to explain, and could make sense in certain contexts: think of a wand of healing, or an Orcslayer attack for Elvish Superheroes. On the other hand, the proposed poison resistance in my opinion needlessly complicates the game, and I would prefer to play the game without such complications. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 17 06:58:58 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DXzmr-0005IY-Gz for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:58:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DXzmn-0005IB-Tt for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:58:54 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DXzml-0005Hs-F6 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:58:52 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DXyyO-0007kl-PA for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:06:49 -0400 Received: from [213.95.27.1] (helo=rot13.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DXz4N-0001aJ-Dk for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 06:12:59 -0400 Received: from majestyk by rot13.de with local (Exim 4.34) id 1DXywZ-0005ZR-Uv; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:04:55 +0200 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:04:55 +0200 From: Andreas Grosse To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Message-ID: <20050517100455.GJ14915@rot13.de> Mail-Followup-To: David White , wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org References: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:58:55 -0000 David White [14:05:05 00:50] wrote: > > Jetryl has some time ago proposed adding poison resistance, a > >feature he would especially like to have for new Naga units. Although he > >is not quite ready to animate them, I believe that it is time to > >impliment this feature. > > > I'm really not so much in favor of poison resistance. I think it adds > unnecessary complexity to what should be a simple ability. I don't think that poison resistance is an idea which is hard to grasp, considering the following guidelines: - let's stick to two levels of resistance: "resistance" (which is always only 50% of the poison damage) and "immunity" (takes no damage from poison). This should be easy to understand, and it's easy to do the math. :) - Poison resistance/immunity should be tied to certain races/units, not experience levels. I think it is fairly easy to grasp that e.g. a sea serpent or a skeleton could be resistant or immune to poison. What I don't get is why an Elvish Champion should be more resistant than an Elvish Fighter (and it would require more resistance nuances, adding even more complexity). Overall I think that poison resistance would be a good thing, since it completes the poison ability. And, last but not least, it could make a race like the Naga more interesting for players without increasing their fighting abilities. Just my humble opinion on this subject :) Cheers, majestyk From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 17 13:07:16 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DY0GB-0002sU-To for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 07:29:16 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DXarJ-0001HH-EP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 16 May 2005 04:21:53 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DXY2q-0005CM-AH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 16 May 2005 01:21:37 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DXWpt-0004vn-5D for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 16 May 2005 00:04:09 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DXWvi-0003lN-AU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 16 May 2005 00:10:10 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j4G42LEh031835 for ; Sun, 15 May 2005 23:02:25 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005051523022200270 for ; Sun, 15 May 2005 23:02:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> References: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8e0b8adadd0bf37fdbdb1b7292d39135@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:02:23 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:29:15 -0000 Dave and I had this discussion, and our opinions afterward came out like this - forgive me if I am putting words in anyone's mouth: A full-fledged resistance system such as has been described would be too complex. -however- A simple "immune to poison" flag is very desirable. The "non-living" flag should NOT be used as a hack to emulate this effect - it already has other effects attached to it, and scenario designers may use it for further things - for example, a magical trap could be scripted such that any "living" creature that stepped on it would trigger it, and the scenario could be structured around non-living units being able to pass this undetected. There are probably a number of other uses for the non-living flag, and it should not be understood as a simple alias of "poison immunity," which is not currently a discrete effect that can be applied by itself. Right now, one of the other effects that non-living has is that non-living units cannot be healed by healing units. A white mage can heal a friendly necromancer, but he cannot heal a ghost. Thus, if Darth fool could code in a discrete "immune to poison" flag, that would be both welcome, and very useful. - Richard From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 17 13:09:23 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DY5MT-0006V1-74 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:56:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DY5La-0006Gt-6Q for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:55:10 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DY5LX-0006G2-57 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:55:07 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DXR3u-0006Ry-GM for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 15 May 2005 17:54:14 -0400 Received: from [64.233.170.205] (helo=rproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DXR9h-00034P-D9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 15 May 2005 18:00:13 -0400 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so123462rny for ; Sun, 15 May 2005 14:52:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=HdcW2F/phV8bqAJXjQmDoLXcISRDp6R4Y41WxVEqWvpLHwrgLKhXwBGeKQeWWqvHSYMzIfYSyDlW6PKPThvBXI1zaerQdb6OlirWWJwK+xr6BwDkCiAlkOflyP31tp51/Nv97VUmuDa7uGkCajwRb5Sh6aYL3ZiTu4oyGXbS+Xk= Received: by 10.11.119.16 with SMTP id r16mr263975cwc; Sun, 15 May 2005 14:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.119.36 with HTTP; Sun, 15 May 2005 14:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9b3d01e0505151452605aa34f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:52:32 +0200 From: Guillaume Melquiond To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Mainline campaigns are bad citizens X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Guillaume Melquiond List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:55:11 -0000 Hi, After having rewrote the preprocessor, I take a look at why it was taking so long to create the caches. Here are two bad behaviors I noticed in the campaigns. I will give some examples, but don't take it as a directed attack: *every* campaign is guilty (of at least one of the two problems). 1) Multiple useless inclusions of the same file Example: The_Rise_of_Wesnoth/trow-macros.cfg only contains macros, no WML structure, and it is included from each scenario. It means this single file will be preprocessed almost 30 times, yet one time would have been enough. Solution: Including the file from the campaign main file instead of each scenario file would have made it available to all the scenarios by loading it only once. 2) Garbage in the scenario directory Example: Eastern_Invasion/deaths.cfg contains some WML structures, so it is natural it is preprocessed from each scenario. However it is in the scenario directory, meaning that it will also be automatically parsed due to the way the campaign main file is written. Consequently it will pollute the config space by putting 4 useless [event] structures at the root of it. Solution: don't put non-scenario WML in the scenario directory, put it in a subdirectory for example. Or don't use implicit inclusion in the campaign file, but it may be too bothersome. I hope it helps improving Wesnoth. Best regards, Guillaume From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 17 18:28:36 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAYG-0005bu-5A for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:28:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAYE-0005an-3W for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:28:34 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAYD-0005aK-EV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:28:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAQh-0002yg-VF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:20:48 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DYAWn-0003so-45 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:27:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4HMIsb24184; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:18:54 GMT Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:17:28 +0200 From: ott To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Problem with checksumstream in 0.9.1 Message-ID: <20050517221728.GB22392@dns.net> References: <427547CD.50509@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <427547CD.50509@comcast.net> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:28:34 -0000 On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 04:19:09PM -0500, David White wrote: > In Wesnoth 0.9.1, checksumstream is derived from > std::basic_ostream, and has a checksumstreambuf sbuf; as a member, > where checksumstreambuf is derived from std::basic_streambuf > > This causes a crash in VC++6 with STLPort. [...] > However it would be appreciated if the person who wrote this class apply > a permanent fix. Has this been sorted out? -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 17 18:49:12 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAsC-00082B-Fz for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:49:12 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAsA-00081Q-2n for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:49:10 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYAs8-00080v-FH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:49:08 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DYArm-0007Q1-8t for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:48:46 -0400 Received: from [204.127.198.35] (helo=rwcrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DYAv1-0002sC-Gz for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 18:52:07 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005051722435801300pdd66e>; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:43:58 +0000 Message-ID: <428A73AC.1070607@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:43:56 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ott Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Problem with checksumstream in 0.9.1 References: <427547CD.50509@comcast.net> <20050517221728.GB22392@dns.net> In-Reply-To: <20050517221728.GB22392@dns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:49:11 -0000 ott wrote: >On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 04:19:09PM -0500, David White wrote: > > >>In Wesnoth 0.9.1, checksumstream is derived from >>std::basic_ostream, and has a checksumstreambuf sbuf; as a member, >>where checksumstreambuf is derived from std::basic_streambuf >> >>This causes a crash in VC++6 with STLPort. >> >> >[...] > > > >>However it would be appreciated if the person who wrote this class apply >>a permanent fix. >> >> > >Has this been sorted out? > > Since no-one else seemed to be doing anything, I committed my fix already. David From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 18 03:36:27 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DYJ6N-0004zp-TQ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 03:36:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYJ6K-0004z4-2b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 03:36:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYJ6G-0004y1-T7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 03:36:18 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DYJ4Y-0004Q0-1c for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 03:34:30 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DYIzr-0006OF-TI for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 03:29:40 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j4I7LOEf021072 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:21:24 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005051802212109108 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:21:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <20050517100455.GJ14915@rot13.de> References: <42852C5B.50209@comcast.net> <20050517100455.GJ14915@rot13.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:21:24 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:36:21 -0000 This, at least in my view, would also be nice. It strikes a balance, because in terms of granularity, nothing more complicated than it would have an ostensible use in the wesnoth world. However, it in itself *would* be useful. It would have a slight change in the dynamics of units which possessed the ability - they would suddenly become much more powerful counters against units which used poison (it would effectively double their hitpoints against poison alone). Standoffs between units with poison would cause those units to quite possibly (especially with assassin-type units) be much more effective if they chose to use their melee weapon - such units also tend to have low hitpoints and this would prevent them from being much more adversely affected by poison than other units who have lots of hitpoints, which is the case right now. Certain potential candidates for poison resistance would be: Assassins, both human and orcish, having built up some immunity to their own devices from having worked with them so long. Saurians, for being lizardly - association with poison is something that always fits the flavor of races similar to small reptiles. Candidates for full poison immunity would be: The entire naga race. Spiders/scorpions (does not match the real world, but works great for game flavor - people who don't know much about insects would expect this). Other potential units that haven't been made yet, like dryads. Cuttlefish might themselves also be candidates. Poison immunity would remain as one of the several effects implied by the "non-living" flag On May 17, 2005, at 5:04 AM, Andreas Grosse wrote: > David White [14:05:05 00:50] wrote: >>> Jetryl has some time ago proposed adding poison resistance, a >>> feature he would especially like to have for new Naga units. >>> Although he >>> is not quite ready to animate them, I believe that it is time to >>> impliment this feature. >>> >> I'm really not so much in favor of poison resistance. I think it adds >> unnecessary complexity to what should be a simple ability. > > I don't think that poison resistance is an idea which is hard to grasp, > considering the following guidelines: > > - let's stick to two levels of resistance: "resistance" (which is > always > only 50% of the poison damage) and "immunity" (takes no damage from > poison). This should be easy to understand, and it's easy to do the > math. :) > > - Poison resistance/immunity should be tied to certain races/units, not > experience levels. I think it is fairly easy to grasp that e.g. a sea > serpent or a skeleton could be resistant or immune to poison. What I > don't get is why an Elvish Champion should be more resistant than an > Elvish Fighter (and it would require more resistance nuances, adding > even more complexity). > > Overall I think that poison resistance would be a good thing, since it > completes the poison ability. And, last but not least, it could make a > race like the Naga more interesting for players without increasing > their > fighting abilities. > > Just my humble opinion on this subject :) > Cheers, > majestyk > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 18 09:37:09 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DYOjU-0006Oh-Ge for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:37:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYOjN-0006ML-AZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:37:01 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DYOjJ-0006Kp-LQ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:36:58 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DYOjI-00064t-8y for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:36:56 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DYOkp-0000FG-1V for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:38:31 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD889A93B for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id A8A5495F3C; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BBC953C9 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] poison resistance In-Reply-To: <8e0b8adadd0bf37fdbdb1b7292d39135@ll.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:37:04 -0000 On Sun, 15 May 2005, Richard Kettering wrote: > Dave and I had this discussion, and our opinions afterward came out > like this - forgive me if I am putting words in anyone's mouth: > > A full-fledged resistance system such as has been described would be > too complex. > -however- > A simple "immune to poison" flag is very desirable. The "non-living" > flag should NOT be used as a hack to emulate this effect - it already > has other effects attached to it, and scenario designers may use it for > further things - for example, a magical trap could be scripted such > that any "living" creature that stepped on it would trigger it, and the > scenario could be structured around non-living units being able to pass > this undetected. > > There are probably a number of other uses for the non-living flag, and > it should not be understood as a simple alias of "poison immunity," > which is not currently a discrete effect that can be applied by itself. > Right now, one of the other effects that non-living has is that > non-living units cannot be healed by healing units. A white mage can > heal a friendly necromancer, but he cannot heal a ghost. > > Thus, if Darth fool could code in a discrete "immune to poison" flag, > that would be both welcome, and very useful. > > - Richard This should be pretty straight forward to code. Two 'important' questions that probably should be answered: 1) How to represent this so that it is obvious to the user? As a status icon (like poison, but with an x through it) or listed as an ability/trait? 2) what to call the 'immune to poison'? preferably something short so as not to take up too much space, especially if the answer to 1 is as an ability/trait. 3) which reminds me of a third slightly off topic question. It seems that currently abilities can not be added via wml modification tags. Is there a plan to impliment this, or is there a reason why it should not be done? John -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 21 04:41:41 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DZPY2-0004oq-Qc for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 21 May 2005 04:41:30 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DZPXw-0004kB-K4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 21 May 2005 04:41:24 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DZPXu-0004jR-MS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 21 May 2005 04:41:22 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DZPXu-0004hV-I8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 21 May 2005 04:41:22 -0400 Received: from [130.71.128.8] (helo=nic.stolaf.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DZPcl-0003se-Ch for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 21 May 2005 04:46:23 -0400 Received: from saveme.stolaf.edu (saveme.stolaf.edu [130.71.96.20]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j4L8bPEf014491 for ; Sat, 21 May 2005 03:37:25 -0500 Received: from [130.71.51.131] ([130.71.51.131]) by saveme.stolaf.edu (SAVSMTP 3.1.0.29) with SMTP id M2005052103372330395 for ; Sat, 21 May 2005 03:37:23 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 03:37:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Portrait Use in the help files X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:41:27 -0000 Please read this, which will explain the one limitation preventing the inclusion of the portraits at present: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80298#80298 The portraits made by Jason Lutes, by the way, are all in CVS, now. Fixing the above problem is something I would love to do, however I have no capability at present, or for the next several months, to do so. Nor do I really want to - that job would be much better handled by someone more familiar with the help system code, like erl. I'll just keep piping the portraits into CVS. From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 25 06:52:26 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DatUo-0006yZ-Om for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 06:52:20 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DatUc-0006ur-Ha for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 06:52:06 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DatUX-0006sP-Pr for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 06:52:01 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DatUX-0006rE-6q for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 06:52:01 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.176] (helo=postfix4-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DatPR-00077Q-QX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 06:46:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (pat35-1-82-231-149-67.fbx.proxad.net [82.231.149.67]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58AE731D949 for ; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:46:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cedric by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DatOs-000123-St for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 12:46:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:46:10 +0200 From: Cedric Duval To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: <20050525104610.GA3661@burk.free.fr> Mail-Followup-To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.12-rc2-cd2 X-URL: http://cedricduval.free.fr User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] LSM / RMLL 2005 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:52:09 -0000 Hello folks, as you might know, the Libre Software Meeting takes place in Dijon this year, from july 5th to july 9th. http://rencontresmondiales.org/ Even if, unlike last year, Wesnoth won't be officially represented, this remains a place of choice for meeting people, drinking, eating bad pizzas (well, in Dijon you might prefer snails and mustard), etc. and of course attending conferences about free software. So, the point of this mail... who intends to come at the LSM and meet friendly faces there ? PS: * Of course, you're also free to come and just hide. ;) * Sorry for spamming. * Where is Dijon? http://www.ot-dijon.fr/images/carte-europe.gif --=20 C=E9dric From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 25 16:17:11 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Db2JS-0002KF-Oc for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Db2JL-0002HJ-Ap for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Db2JG-0002DW-EW for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 16:16:58 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Db2JG-0002C3-96 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 16:16:58 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Db2ES-0002WF-Ew for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 16:12:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4PKBT810181; Wed, 25 May 2005 20:11:29 GMT Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:11:43 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Mainline campaigns are bad citizens Message-ID: <20050525201143.GA5678@dns.net> References: <9b3d01e0505151452605aa34f@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9b3d01e0505151452605aa34f@mail.gmail.com> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:17:06 -0000 On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 11:52:32PM +0200, Guillaume Melquiond wrote: > 1) Multiple useless inclusions of the same file SotBE was doing this with both the global and the campaign specific utils.cfg files, now fixed. > 2) Garbage in the scenario directory SotBE did this with three utility files, moved them to a new subdirectory. In the process, also fixed some language issues and a WML bug. Now for some rebalancing, in the absence of benj... -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 03:50:18 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbD8D-0000xt-0y for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:50:17 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbD7z-0000wu-A7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:50:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbD7u-0000wF-Rk for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:50:00 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbD7s-0000jM-FY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:49:57 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbCtI-0002HR-RS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 03:34:52 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.13] (unverified [209.131.231.13]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 02:34:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 02:34:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:50:06 -0000 Now that I'm free for the summer, I've begun work on animating neo's=20 level-3 drakes. The burner line is the only line that is really "finished" right now,=20 and many of the others could stand to have some minor rebalancing. Those subscribed to the commit message mailing list will have already=20 seen that I've added a level-3 flyer - moreover, I have added marksman=20= to the flyer line. This would normally overpower the faction, but this is part of a larger=20= change at work. Sometime within the next week, I am going to completely remake the=20 saurian tribalist line - graphics and all. A number of people, Sanna=20 especially, have complained about factions being or becoming too=20 similar, a sentiment which I agree with. The tribalist is having his=20 magic attack replaced with a drain attack (along with the rest of his=20 line). The level-2 branch is also being collapsed, since it had little=20= utility. Hitpoints are being increased, slightly. The unit's stats=20 were originally created NOT under the aegis of "every faction needs a=20 unit with a magic attack," but rather under the more destructive "every=20= faction needs a 'mage'." This is quite nearly the antithesis of=20 faction differentiation. Besides all of this, it has never seemed right to me that in a faction=20= with _fire_breathing_dragons, a primary ranged offensive unit was=20 something else. If nothing else, the tribalist should really be=20 de-emphasized as a combat unit, and formed into what it was originally=20= intended to be - a support unit. Almost all players right now hire the=20= tribalist for his attack capability, not his healing. By having a ranged drain attack, several things are accomplished: a] It is a unique configuration which no other faction has. =20 +faction_differentiation b] It removes the clich=E9 "mage" unit from the saurians. =20 +faction_differentiation c] It fits better with the "voodoo/witch doctor/serpentine/jungle"=20 flavor of the unit's magic style +flavor d] It makes the unit less volatile - harder to kill with, harder to=20 get killed +gameplay e] It makes the unit MUCH less common on the battlefield - fitting=20 with the idea of magic being rare and powerful. +flavor The unit will remain effective on the attack, when pitted against units=20= with bad defense and cold weakness, such as heavy infantry and drakes. A side benefit of this is that the sky drake, which is currently of=20 questionable use when compared with saurian skirmishers, will become a=20= much more generally useful unit. Drake players will have a choice of=20 attacking with a unit that can help to ensure a hit, or a unit that can=20= do a lot of damage. Additionally, by having marksman, the drake flyer=20= will still be vulnerable to retaliation during the opponents turn -=20 marksman activates only on the offense, not during retaliation.= From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 12:58:33 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbLgk-000847-ED for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:58:30 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbLgY-0007zE-GX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:58:19 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbLgU-0007xR-HQ for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:58:15 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbLgT-0007uf-Ul for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:58:13 -0400 Received: from [81.228.11.159] (helo=pne-smtpout2-sn1.fre.skanova.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbLdV-0006rf-NM for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 12:55:09 -0400 Received: from [192.168.111.2] (217.209.13.94) by pne-smtpout2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (7.2.059.6) id 42930AA900098A10 for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 18:54:27 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0e795bea95307e358c30e741dac6654c@telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Susanna_Bj=F6rverud?= Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:54:25 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Tired of fighting the wind mills of cool X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:58:22 -0000 Hej allesammans, Recently I have discovered that I cannot even be bothered to protest against additions and changes to the game that I think are blatantly wrong. This to me is a clear indication that I should not really be around. I have therefore decided that I need a break from wesnoth development. Practical details: With 30 translations ongoing, there is no way Ivanovic can handle them all himself, he needs help. Okada (the japanese translator) has several times indicated that he is willing to help. I will stay around a while to allow you to find someone. Currently I stand as owner of the irc channels wesnoth and wesnoth-dev, I think it would be better if these were taken over by someone else. I will probably be around from time to time, but not on a daily basis, and I do not want any developer responsibilities. Please remove me. I might compile cvs now and then, and even show up looking for a game. *smile* I wish you the best of luck in the continuing work of making Wesnoth the best game ever. Have fun! /Sanna From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 13:37:59 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMIv-0006W5-NL for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 13:37:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMIn-0006MC-2u for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 13:37:49 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMIe-0006Ax-EH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 13:37:41 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMId-00069V-Qm for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 13:37:39 -0400 Received: from [194.146.224.64] (helo=maileuz.sivit.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbMH0-0006n1-N6 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 13:35:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maileuz.sivit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128AB3FE0 for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 19:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from maileuz.sivit.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (maileuz.sivit.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11504-32 for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 19:37:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hebus.dyndns.org (nas-cbv-9-213-228-46-225.dial.proxad.net [213.228.46.225]) by maileuz.sivit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E230400B for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 19:37:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from benj by hebus.dyndns.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DbJ4O-0005cH-00 for ; Thu, 26 May 2005 16:10:44 +0200 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] LSM / RMLL 2005 References: <20050525104610.GA3661@burk.free.fr> From: Benjamin Drieu Organization: APRIL - http://www.april.org/ X-Face: u__\%iH0At@N.Z|NZ\/; )nH`Ie?W,iCIcZct6Q=scF`qYCo@wxawCH-; d,3]Qa'qt3[`_D@ BZgsuv|}X3Z~@g"Rn')V<7mG\?E, ejoiLT)$(pFml1'g+@Ov#~kk"B&n`('jHOpTl7618jRM'plV%e Sl6q Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:10:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050525104610.GA3661@burk.free.fr> (Cedric Duval's message of "Wed, 25 May 2005 12:46:10 +0200") Message-ID: <87u0kq9ixq.fsf@hebus.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: Benjamin Drieu X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis at maileuz.sivit.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:37:53 -0000 --=-=-= Cedric Duval writes: > Even if, unlike last year, Wesnoth won't be officially represented, this > remains a place of choice for meeting people, drinking, eating bad > pizzas (well, in Dijon you might prefer snails and mustard), etc. and of > course attending conferences about free software. > > So, the point of this mail... who intends to come at the LSM and meet > friendly faces there ? I'll be there as a Debian representative, but I don't know which days yet. I'll be happy to meet Wesnoth developers or users there even we are unlikely to do a Wesnoth Developers Conference this year. :-) Cheers, Benjamin -- o Benjamin Drieu: bdrieu@april.org benj@debian.org o APRIL: http://www.april.org/ o Grisbi: http://www.grisbi.org/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCldjknDLqtZBL50ERAlwRAKCmeGC7oT5LHl2pb32v5DuONuwcywCeJnyV IbuSpkYwbxNwz1zeYgjYlWE= =/6qO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 14:14:50 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMsb-0002fJ-4n for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:14:49 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMsQ-0002Y7-JV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:14:39 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMsI-0002Ty-5b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:14:31 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbMsI-0002T3-1v for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:14:30 -0400 Received: from [213.95.27.1] (helo=rot13.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DbMm3-0004ZG-GO for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 14:08:04 -0400 Received: from majestyk by rot13.de with local (Exim 4.34) id 1DbMlQ-0006cx-7r for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 20:07:24 +0200 Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:07:24 +0200 From: Andreas Grosse To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New multiplayer chat preferences Message-ID: <20050526180724.GO23898@rot13.de> Mail-Followup-To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org References: <20050422091502.GB11598@rot13.de> <20050428161224.GA17412@rot13.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050428161224.GA17412@rot13.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:14:41 -0000 --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi there, on Ott's request I reviewed my patches again and submitted them to tracker as ID 4047: https://savannah.nongnu.org/patch/index.php?func=detailitem&item_id=4047 It is still the same functionality and applies to the latest CVS version. I checked the changes made by DarthFool and decided not to put my preferences in the "Advanced" section, but to stick with the Multiplayer tab, for the following reasons: I don't think that the "Advanced" tab is needed, and it might have negative effects. Enabling non-binary saves is in my opinion a feature which is not neeeded by normal users and it encourages cheating since modifying the save game is easier. I think having this configurable is a good thing, but via console would suffice. Besides, the advanced tab is the perfect place for developers to put all their stuff which didn't fit elsewhere, which is a bad habit. And, as the last point, it looks different than all other tabs, and it's user interface is not very intuitive. But that might be a different discussion. :-) I also checked if I could somehow use the timestamp code DarthFool uses for his theme, but that doesn't work. I'd suggest that someone with more experience than me checks for all usages of time() and strftime() calls and builds a generic utils::time object (or something like that), to counter re-coding the same stuff over and over. What I took from DarthFools code is the preferences::clock_format() for the chat timestamp, so that is configurable now as well. Anyway, I already got lots of positive feedback for my patch, so I hope that it does finally make it into mainstream wesnoth; I am really reluctant to review the patches once a month to make them again apply. majestyk Andreas Grosse [28:04:05 18:16] wrote: > Hi, > > after some talking via IRC I decided to show the actual number of lines > configured with the slider next to the slider. To make things easier for > you to check, I created a new patch (which still applies fine to the > latest CVS version) AND I made a screenshot how it looks like. It is > available at http://www.rot13.de/~majestyk/wesnoth-mp-prefs.png . > > Now I need a developer willing to review the code, so that the changes > get merged into the CVS. Is there a volunteer? :-) > > Cheers, > majestyk > > Andreas Grosse [22:04:05 11:16] wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I recently joined the wesnoth community, and I have a few ideas about > > what could be improved in some parts. Instead of buggering you with > > implementing my features, I tried to do so myself. Since I am not a > > seasoned C++ programmer, I'd really appreciate if someone could review > > my attached patches. If there is a consensus about the integration, I'd > > be happy if these changes could be merged for the next version. > > > > The things I wanted to improve are focused on multiplayer chat. On my > > first online match, things went really slow, so I wasn't always at my > > machine. Returning to it, I would have been happy to have the messages > > timestamped, to be able to trackback when something happened. Second, > > when playing on a small resolution 6 lines of chat messages are just too > > much, and I thought making it configurable would be nice. > > > > Summary of changes: > > - created a new preferences tab, called "Multiplayer" > > - created a button called "Chat Timestamping", prepending the chat lines > > with a "H:m:s" timestamp (e.g.: 21:42:23 test line ) > > - created a slider called "Chat Lines", changing the amount of displayed > > lines from 1 to 20 lines. > > > > To work 100%, a new image is needed for the multiplayer tab. For test > > purposes, I used the silver mage because I like the image :-) > > # cp images/silver-mage.png images/icons/multiplayer.png > > > > I'd be grateful for almost every kind of feedback :) > > > > Cheers, > > majestyk --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="multiplayer-prefs-260505.diff" Index: display.cpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/display.cpp,v retrieving revision 1.321 diff -a -u -r1.321 display.cpp --- display.cpp 16 May 2005 22:44:19 -0000 1.321 +++ display.cpp 26 May 2005 17:31:10 -0000 @@ -2179,6 +2179,22 @@ grid_ = grid; } +// timestring() returns the current date as a string. +// Uses preferences::clock_format() for formatting. +char *timestring ( void ) +{ + #define TIME_SIZE 10 + + time_t now = time ( NULL ); + struct tm *lt = localtime( &now ); + + char *tstring; + tstring = new char[TIME_SIZE]; + size_t s = strftime(tstring,TIME_SIZE,preferences::clock_format().c_str(),lt); + return tstring; + #undef TIME_SIZE +} + void display::debug_highlight(const gamemap::location& loc, fixed_t amount) { wassert(game_config::debug); @@ -2291,7 +2307,6 @@ } namespace { - const unsigned int max_chat_messages = 6; const int chat_message_border = 5; const int chat_message_x = 10; const int chat_message_y = 10; @@ -2310,6 +2325,7 @@ msg = message; action = false; } + msg = font::word_wrap_text(msg,font::SIZE_SMALL,mapx()*3/4); int ypos = chat_message_x; @@ -2345,9 +2361,15 @@ } } + // prepend message with timestamp + std::stringstream message_meta; + if (preferences::chat_timestamp()) { + message_meta << timestring() << " "; + } + message_meta << str.str(); const SDL_Rect rect = map_area(); - const int speaker_handle = font::add_floating_label(str.str(),font::SIZE_SMALL,speaker_colour, + const int speaker_handle = font::add_floating_label(message_meta.str(),font::SIZE_SMALL,speaker_colour, rect.x+chat_message_x,rect.y+ypos, 0,0,-1,rect,font::LEFT_ALIGN,&chat_message_bg,chat_message_border); @@ -2368,6 +2390,8 @@ void display::prune_chat_messages(bool remove_all) { const unsigned int message_ttl = remove_all ? 0 : 1200000; + const unsigned int max_chat_messages = preferences::chat_lines(); + if(chat_messages_.empty() == false && (chat_messages_.front().created_at+message_ttl < SDL_GetTicks() || chat_messages_.size() > max_chat_messages)) { const int movement = font::get_floating_label_rect(chat_messages_.front().handle).h; Index: preferences.cpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/preferences.cpp,v retrieving revision 1.158 diff -a -u -r1.158 preferences.cpp --- preferences.cpp 16 May 2005 22:44:19 -0000 1.158 +++ preferences.cpp 26 May 2005 17:31:13 -0000 @@ -295,6 +295,8 @@ return prefs["adjust_gamma"] == "yes"; } + + void set_adjust_gamma(bool val) { //if we are turning gamma adjustment off, then set it to '1.0' @@ -746,6 +748,34 @@ prefs["flip_time"] = value ? "yes" : "no"; } +bool chat_timestamp() +{ + return prefs["chat_timestamp"] == "yes"; +} + +void set_chat_timestamp(bool value) +{ + prefs["chat_timestamp"] = value ? "yes" : "no"; +} + +int chat_lines() +{ + // defaults to 6 chat log lines displayed + static const int default_value = 6; + const string_map::const_iterator lines = prefs.values.find("chat_lines"); + if(lines != prefs.values.end() && lines->second.empty() == false) + return atoi(lines->second.c_str()); + else + return default_value; +} + +void set_chat_lines(int lines) +{ + std::stringstream stream; + stream << lines; + prefs["chat_lines"] = stream.str(); +} + bool show_fps() { return fps; @@ -821,19 +851,20 @@ const config* get_advanced_pref() const; void set_advanced_menu(); - gui::slider music_slider_, sound_slider_, scroll_slider_, gamma_slider_; + gui::slider music_slider_, sound_slider_, scroll_slider_, gamma_slider_, + chat_lines_slider_; gui::button fullscreen_button_, turbo_button_, show_ai_moves_button_, show_grid_button_, show_floating_labels_button_, turn_dialog_button_, turn_bell_button_, show_team_colours_button_, show_colour_cursors_button_, show_haloing_button_, video_mode_button_, hotkeys_button_, gamma_button_, - flip_time_button_, advanced_button_; - gui::label music_label_, sound_label_, scroll_label_, gamma_label_; + flip_time_button_, advanced_button_, chat_timestamp_button_; + gui::label music_label_, sound_label_, scroll_label_, gamma_label_, chat_lines_label_; unsigned slider_label_width_; gui::menu advanced_; int advanced_selection_; - enum TAB { GENERAL_TAB, DISPLAY_TAB, SOUND_TAB, ADVANCED_TAB }; + enum TAB { GENERAL_TAB, DISPLAY_TAB, SOUND_TAB, MULTIPLAYER_TAB, ADVANCED_TAB }; TAB tab_; display &disp_; const config& game_cfg_; @@ -843,6 +874,7 @@ : gui::preview_pane(disp.video()), music_slider_(disp.video()), sound_slider_(disp.video()), scroll_slider_(disp.video()), gamma_slider_(disp.video()), + chat_lines_slider_(disp.video()), fullscreen_button_(disp.video(), _("Toggle Full Screen"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), turbo_button_(disp.video(), _("Accelerated Speed"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), show_ai_moves_button_(disp.video(), _("Skip AI Moves"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), @@ -858,8 +890,10 @@ gamma_button_(disp.video(), _("Adjust Gamma"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), flip_time_button_(disp.video(), _("Reverse Time Graphics"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), advanced_button_(disp.video(), "", gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), + chat_timestamp_button_(disp.video(), _("Chat Timestamping"), gui::button::TYPE_CHECK), music_label_(disp.video(), _("Music Volume:")), sound_label_(disp.video(), _("SFX Volume:")), scroll_label_(disp.video(), _("Scroll Speed:")), gamma_label_(disp.video(), _("Gamma:")), + chat_lines_label_(disp.video(), _("")), slider_label_width_(0), advanced_(disp.video(),std::vector()), advanced_selection_(-1), tab_(GENERAL_TAB), disp_(disp), game_cfg_(game_cfg) { @@ -872,8 +906,9 @@ slider_label_width_ = maximum(music_label_.width(), maximum(sound_label_.width(), + maximum(chat_lines_label_.width(), maximum(scroll_label_.width(), - gamma_label_.width()))); + gamma_label_.width() )))); sound_slider_.set_min(1); sound_slider_.set_max(100); @@ -897,6 +932,16 @@ gamma_slider_.set_max(200); gamma_slider_.set_value(gamma()); gamma_slider_.set_help_string(_("Change the brightness of the display")); + + chat_lines_slider_.set_min(1); + chat_lines_slider_.set_max(20); + chat_lines_slider_.set_value(chat_lines()); + chat_lines_slider_.set_help_string(_("Set the amount of chat lines shown")); + // Have the tooltip appear over the static "Chat lines" label, too. + chat_lines_label_.set_help_string(_("Set the amount of chat lines shown")); + + chat_timestamp_button_.set_check(chat_timestamp()); + chat_timestamp_button_.set_help_string(_("Add a timestamp to chat messages")); fullscreen_button_.set_check(fullscreen()); fullscreen_button_.set_help_string(_("Choose whether the game should run full screen or in a window")); @@ -990,15 +1035,22 @@ rect.w - slider_label_width_ - border, 0 }; sound_slider_.set_location(sound_rect); + // Multiplayer tab + ypos = rect.y; + chat_lines_label_.set_location(rect.x, ypos); + SDL_Rect chat_lines_rect = { rect.x + slider_label_width_, ypos, + rect.w - slider_label_width_ - border, 0 }; + chat_lines_slider_.set_location(chat_lines_rect); + ypos += item_interline; chat_timestamp_button_.set_location(rect.x, ypos); + //Advanced tab ypos = rect.y; advanced_.set_location(rect.x,ypos); advanced_.set_max_height(height()-100); ypos += advanced_.height() + border; - advanced_button_.set_location(rect.x,ypos); - + set_selection(tab_); } @@ -1038,10 +1090,20 @@ } if (flip_time_button_.pressed()) set_flip_time(flip_time_button_.checked()); + if (chat_timestamp_button_.pressed()) + set_chat_timestamp(chat_timestamp_button_.checked()); + set_sound_volume(sound_slider_.value()); set_music_volume(music_slider_.value()); set_scroll_speed(scroll_slider_.value()); set_gamma(gamma_slider_.value()); + set_chat_lines(chat_lines_slider_.value()); + + // display currently select amount of chat lines + std::stringstream buf; + buf << _("Chat Lines: ") << chat_lines_slider_.value(); + chat_lines_label_.set_text(buf.str()); + if(advanced_.selection() != advanced_selection_) { advanced_selection_ = advanced_.selection(); @@ -1136,6 +1198,11 @@ sound_label_.hide(hide_sound); sound_slider_.hide(hide_sound); + const bool hide_multiplayer = tab_ != MULTIPLAYER_TAB; + chat_lines_label_.hide(hide_multiplayer); + chat_lines_slider_.hide(hide_multiplayer); + chat_timestamp_button_.hide(hide_multiplayer); + const bool hide_advanced = tab_ != ADVANCED_TAB; advanced_.hide(hide_advanced); advanced_button_.hide(hide_advanced); @@ -1152,7 +1219,10 @@ items.push_back(pre + "general.png" + sep + dsgettext(GETTEXT_DOMAIN,"Prefs section^General")); items.push_back(pre + "display.png" + sep + dsgettext(GETTEXT_DOMAIN,"Prefs section^Display")); items.push_back(pre + "music.png" + sep + dsgettext(GETTEXT_DOMAIN,"Prefs section^Sound")); + items.push_back(pre + "multiplayer.png" + sep + dsgettext(GETTEXT_DOMAIN,"Prefs section^Multiplayer")); items.push_back(pre + "advanced.png" + sep + dsgettext(GETTEXT_DOMAIN,"Advanced section^Advanced")); + + for(;;) { try { Index: preferences.hpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/preferences.hpp,v retrieving revision 1.55 diff -a -u -r1.55 preferences.hpp --- preferences.hpp 14 May 2005 20:56:21 -0000 1.55 +++ preferences.hpp 26 May 2005 17:31:13 -0000 @@ -155,6 +155,13 @@ bool flip_time(); void set_flip_time(bool value); + // Multiplayer functions + bool chat_timestamp(); + void set_chat_timestamp(bool value); + + int chat_lines(); + void set_chat_lines(int lines); + bool compress_saves(); std::set &encountered_units(); --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX-- From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 23:17:19 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVLa-0000hc-T7 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:17:18 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVLG-0000cN-Lv for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:16:59 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVL9-0000Yf-VF for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:16:53 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVL7-0000Ri-6U for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:16:49 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.85] (helo=rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbVA3-0004HZ-R0 for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:05:24 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20050527030435014003ve4me>; Fri, 27 May 2005 03:04:35 +0000 Message-ID: <42968E41.6060402@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:04:33 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Susanna_Bj=F6rverud?= Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Tired of fighting the wind mills of cool References: <0e795bea95307e358c30e741dac6654c@telia.com> In-Reply-To: <0e795bea95307e358c30e741dac6654c@telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:17:08 -0000 Sanna, Thank you for your contributions to the project, and I wish you well in future endeavours. This however, reinforces to me something I have been considering for a while: at a time when Wesnoth leads strong leadership to form a clear direction and purpose between different groups each of whom want to turn development in a different direction, I have failed to provide this leadership. I have been too busy, besides becoming sick and tired of the infighting and debates about different features that contributors apparently feel very passionately about. The project has become far too aimless, a ship that doesn't have a clear course, but is rather pushed about in different directions according to which contributor has the most energy to push it the hardest. Now all I want to do is perhaps quietly code a few features in my rather limited free time; not debate whether some unit should have a cold or fire attack, or if High Elves and 'Wood Elves' should be part of one faction, or whether Drakes should be in the game, or if some new unit set should be added, or any one of an immense number of things that my opinion is asked of. Because of this, I feel that someone else who has more time, passion, and a clear future direction for the project should take over to lead it where they will. I am happy to continue as the technical lead for the moment if the person taking over is not technical enough to take that responsibility. Otherwise, I will happily slink back and become a minor contributor. This of course leaves the question of who is the best person to take leadership of the project. I won't name any names, but I will throw the floor open for nominations. The ideal candidate should most importantly have good support amongst the Wesnoth community, have time and passion for the project, be committed to Free Software ideals, and have contributed substantially to the project already. If Wesnoth is to be a successful FLOSS project, it *must* have a strong leader. It is of course possible that there is simply no longer the interest to sustain Wesnoth development going much further. If that is the way of things, then so be it. I would also like to thank everyone for their excellent contributions to the project. Wesnoth has only been successful due to contributions from people too numerous to name. Oh, and, Lisa and I would love to catch you for a game sometime Sanna. :) David Susanna Björverud wrote: > Hej allesammans, > > Recently I have discovered that I cannot even be bothered to protest > against additions and changes to the game that I think are blatantly > wrong. This to me is a clear indication that I should not really be > around. I have therefore decided that I need a break from wesnoth > development. > > Practical details: > > With 30 translations ongoing, there is no way Ivanovic can handle them > all himself, he needs help. Okada (the japanese translator) has > several times indicated that he is willing to help. I will stay around > a while to allow you to find someone. > > Currently I stand as owner of the irc channels wesnoth and > wesnoth-dev, I think it would be better if these were taken over by > someone else. > > I will probably be around from time to time, but not on a daily basis, > and I do not want any developer responsibilities. Please remove me. I > might compile cvs now and then, and even show up looking for a game. > *smile* > > I wish you the best of luck in the continuing work of making Wesnoth > the best game ever. Have fun! > > /Sanna > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > From MAILER-DAEMON Thu May 26 23:48:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVpL-0003pz-18 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:48:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVp9-0003h6-4i for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:47:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVp2-0003eB-KS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:47:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbVp2-0003c6-9K for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:47:44 -0400 Received: from [216.136.227.63] (helo=web20528.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbVjh-0001rf-P5 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Thu, 26 May 2005 23:42:14 -0400 Received: (qmail 51486 invoked by uid 60001); 27 May 2005 03:41:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hMqzH4iYrV5wddEDirtnmUCHb0vMxOocVQnxpy1gPQ6lCxsCz12d4Chvd+ZxYnEQ/HbJgdRHWZ3aGnJg6PxmpkfKqf0AUzcYBPBw2NSfQp1l+P0674VkWp/e8bIvTHPqrQpR6gldiXciW9g1l2JYmg1r9CQd61MMyTtgoa7jzCg= ; Message-ID: <20050527034124.51484.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.60.131.93] by web20528.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 May 2005 20:41:24 PDT Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:41:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Tired of fighting the wind mills of cool To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:47:53 -0000 Dear David and Sanna, Sorry to hear that you both have been becoming frusterated with Wesnoth. I admit that after 18 months of being active in the Wesnoth community, I have also gotten a bit tired of patrolling the forums and keeping up with the day to day conversations. I'm not leaving, and I still check the forums weekly to see what's going on, but I not am longer interested in replying to every thread arguing about the minitua of the game. Mostly I prefer to spend my time working on finishing my campaign, I figure that's the best way to improve Wesnoth. So I sympathize with how both of you feel. I haven't been keeping up the the day to day problems with the current build, but generally I think we are pretty close to v 1.0. The holy grail of developing. Not every feature has been implemented, but in the end, not every idea you had at the start can be implemented in a game. And just cause we release 1.0 doesn't mean we have to stop adding new artwork or other features. But I would hate for our main leadership to lose interest and fade away and have us stop at 0.9.x, with an eternally unfinished product. I worry that if we keep arguing over the small stuff and new ideas and new features, that we may release a "finished" version. I think it might be a good idea if the core developers try to set a date, such as September 1st 2005, to try to release version 1.0. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'd love to see the emphasis go onto fixing bugs (and maybe polishing the interface) rather than implementing new ideas and featurs so that we can release a version 1.0 in the next few months. I understand Dave's feelings, and while the community iks bigger than one person, and others will no doubt rise to carry the burden, a project can't be "in development" forever and after almost 2 years I think it's time to seriously work to releasing version 1.0. -Asa P.S. Sorry if this sounds pretentious and stupid, I know the devs have been working towards 1.0 for a long time. I know that recent features have been important, and of course I have many ideas of new units that should be added. But at some point I think you have to say enough is enough and release the game. You can't implement everything you want to, and I think that releasing a v1.0 will get people who are scared of playing a development version interested in the game. Hopefully a version 1.0 will bring even more people into the community. --- David White wrote: > Sanna, > > Thank you for your contributions to the project, and > I wish you well in > future endeavours. > > This however, reinforces to me something I have been > considering for a > while: at a time when Wesnoth leads strong > leadership to form a clear > direction and purpose between different groups each > of whom want to turn > development in a different direction, I have failed > to provide this > leadership. > > I have been too busy, besides becoming sick and > tired of the infighting > and debates about different features that > contributors apparently feel > very passionately about. The project has become far > too aimless, a ship > that doesn't have a clear course, but is rather > pushed about in > different directions according to which contributor > has the most energy > to push it the hardest. > > Now all I want to do is perhaps quietly code a few > features in my rather > limited free time; not debate whether some unit > should have a cold or > fire attack, or if High Elves and 'Wood Elves' > should be part of one > faction, or whether Drakes should be in the game, or > if some new unit > set should be added, or any one of an immense number > of things that my > opinion is asked of. > > Because of this, I feel that someone else who has > more time, passion, > and a clear future direction for the project should > take over to lead it > where they will. I am happy to continue as the > technical lead for the > moment if the person taking over is not technical > enough to take that > responsibility. Otherwise, I will happily slink back > and become a minor > contributor. > > This of course leaves the question of who is the > best person to take > leadership of the project. I won't name any names, > but I will throw the > floor open for nominations. The ideal candidate > should most importantly > have good support amongst the Wesnoth community, > have time and passion > for the project, be committed to Free Software > ideals, and have > contributed substantially to the project already. > > If Wesnoth is to be a successful FLOSS project, it > *must* have a strong > leader. It is of course possible that there is > simply no longer the > interest to sustain Wesnoth development going much > further. If that is > the way of things, then so be it. > > I would also like to thank everyone for their > excellent contributions to > the project. Wesnoth has only been successful due to > contributions from > people too numerous to name. > > Oh, and, Lisa and I would love to catch you for a > game sometime Sanna. :) > > David > > Susanna Björverud wrote: > > > Hej allesammans, > > > > Recently I have discovered that I cannot even be > bothered to protest > > against additions and changes to the game that I > think are blatantly > > wrong. This to me is a clear indication that I > should not really be > > around. I have therefore decided that I need a > break from wesnoth > > development. > > > > Practical details: > > > > With 30 translations ongoing, there is no way > Ivanovic can handle them > > all himself, he needs help. Okada (the japanese > translator) has > > several times indicated that he is willing to > help. I will stay around > > a while to allow you to find someone. > > > > Currently I stand as owner of the irc channels > wesnoth and > > wesnoth-dev, I think it would be better if these > were taken over by > > someone else. > > > > I will probably be around from time to time, but > not on a daily basis, > > and I do not want any developer responsibilities. > Please remove me. I > > might compile cvs now and then, and even show up > looking for a game. > > *smile* > > > > I wish you the best of luck in the continuing work > of making Wesnoth > > the best game ever. Have fun! > > > > /Sanna > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > > > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 08:56:39 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbeOC-0001i3-DR for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:56:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbeNv-0001em-AG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:56:19 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbeNs-0001cy-4S for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:56:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbeNs-0001bN-0k for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:56:16 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbeJZ-0003f9-PK for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:51:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC36E7F8049 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:15:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10040-01 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:15:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.33] (169.Red-217-127-113.pooles.rima-tde.net [217.127.113.169]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4A27F8047 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:15:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Tired of fighting the wind mills of cool Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:50:45 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 References: <0e795bea95307e358c30e741dac6654c@telia.com> In-Reply-To: <0e795bea95307e358c30e741dac6654c@telia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3093646.S0dtubmcfk"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200505271450.48185.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:56:20 -0000 --nextPart3093646.S0dtubmcfk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 26 de May de 2005 18:54, Susanna Bj=F6rverud wrote: > Hej allesammans, > > Recently I have discovered that I cannot even be bothered to protest > against additions and changes to the game that I think are blatantly > wrong. This to me is a clear indication that I should not really be > around. I have therefore decided that I need a break from wesnoth > development. I'm really sorry to hear this :(, the Wesnoth casualties list is growing to= o=20 long. It would be really nice if you're able to find somebody to help=20 Ivanovic. And of course, I still wish to find some time to play a game with= =20 you, but as it has been impossible in the last months, I don't know if it's= =20 realistic to expect it :P Best regards =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --nextPart3093646.S0dtubmcfk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBClxeoQET2GFTmct4RAhyHAJ4nhvuplF5udz6dGRykSj5M8YedJwCfaq4P bXeqXWJEdO0anU/YyuX00Q8= =1+kN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3093646.S0dtubmcfk-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 09:51:59 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbfFm-0004na-BW for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:51:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbfFg-0004j5-HG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:51:53 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbfFf-0004hh-0Z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:51:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbfFe-0004ha-U0 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:51:50 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbf8D-0007k4-LP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E777F8049 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:07:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10932-10 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:07:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.33] (169.Red-217-127-113.pooles.rima-tde.net [217.127.113.169]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6A17F8047 for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:07:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:43:05 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1303520.TLsnSojdL0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:51:54 -0000 --nextPart1303520.TLsnSojdL0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi, people. The last weeks I've been buried unter tons of work and in the weekends I've= =20 been off-line because of problems with the line, so I've been unable to=20 follow Wesnoth development. Anyway it has been a month since latest release and the changelog is alread= y=20 full of new images, bugfixes, balancing and improvements. Please, let me know if there is some important bug that should be closed or= a=20 nice feature that you want to push in before releasing Wesnoth 0.9.2 Best regards =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --nextPart1303520.TLsnSojdL0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBClyPvQET2GFTmct4RAr5WAKCn1jWDUeQY8NlwORLv/vJcyRS/9wCfXWpH hZLTuukf2vtDDK23/kW1cLc= =Bo1M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1303520.TLsnSojdL0-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 10:47:34 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbg7Z-0001bl-Eb for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:47:34 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbg7T-0001Y6-PV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:47:28 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbg7R-0001We-9u for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:47:25 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbg7R-0001W1-2z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:47:25 -0400 Received: from [213.95.27.1] (helo=rot13.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbg5r-0004Gf-CU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 10:45:47 -0400 Received: from majestyk by rot13.de with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbg50-0007H4-9J; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:44:54 +0200 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:44:54 +0200 From: Andreas Grosse To: Isaac Clerencia Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 Message-ID: <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> Mail-Followup-To: Isaac Clerencia , wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:47:29 -0000 Isaac Clerencia [27:05:05 15:50] wrote: > Please, let me know if there is some important bug that should be closed or a > nice feature that you want to push in before releasing Wesnoth 0.9.2 As I already pointed out in my last mail, I don't think that the "Advanced" tab should be distributed to the public. Enabling non-binary saves is in my opinion a feature which is not neeeded by normal users and it encourages cheating since modifying the save game is easier. I think having this configurable is a good thing, but via console would suffice. Besides, the advanced tab is the perfect place for developers to put all their stuff which didn't fit elsewhere, which is a bad habit. And, as a last point, it looks different than all other tabs, and it's user interface is not very intuitive, so _if_ we keep it, it should at least be adjusted to the other tabs. Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion, and I might be totally wrong about this. So I'd like to hear your opinion about it. Cheers, majestyk From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 11:21:17 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbgeC-0000dU-HG for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:21:16 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbge9-0000bq-HZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:21:13 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbge5-0000YQ-ES for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:21:10 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbge4-0000Xx-Ob for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:21:08 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbgca-0007DC-CA for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:19:36 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 May 2005 15:18:40 -0000 Received: from p83.129.70.115.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.70.115] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 27 May 2005 17:18:40 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:19:26 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <10013405468.20050527171926@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 In-Reply-To: <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:21:14 -0000 I also think that the new menu item should at least be adjusted, so that it behaves like the other ones. It is very counter intuitive. But i think more important is the question, if we really do need that item. I do not think we do, because we have the option to decompress them via cmd-line. And I think that it would be good to have a new release quite soon. CU Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 11:51:48 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7j-0005pA-KP for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:47 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7e-0005nD-TF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:43 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7c-0005lx-71 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:40 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7c-0005kk-19 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:40 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbh1g-0000Yf-K8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:45:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4RFiXq20744; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:44:33 GMT Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:45:10 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 Message-ID: <20050527154510.GA7848@dns.net> References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:51:44 -0000 On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 04:44:54PM +0200, Andreas Grosse wrote: > As I already pointed out in my last mail, I don't think that the > "Advanced" tab should be distributed to the public. It was added by Dave after a general hum that there were some options that it would be nice to be able to add in a general fashion. I don't think it is meant to be the final form of the feature, but as a demonstration of how to add features where much of the work is done in WML, and perhaps a test bed of proposed new options that might or might not make it into the game. Apologies if I misinterpreted Dave's intentions. The two options that are currently there are for the convenience of developers. Perhaps we should enable the Advanced prefs only if the game is in debug mode. I think the design of the game hasn't focused on making cheating difficult -- Dave has said this in many forum postings. Therefore, retrofitting cheat protection that offers realistic protection before 1.0 seems infeasible. I suggest we postpone worrying about cheating until after 1.0, when a refactoring is probably in order anyway. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 11:51:48 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7k-0005pI-1h for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:48 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7f-0005nE-3g for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:43 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7a-0005ku-U2 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:39 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbh7a-0005kk-QQ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:51:38 -0400 Received: from [216.136.227.63] (helo=web20528.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbh5v-0000tF-JR for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 11:49:56 -0400 Received: (qmail 39447 invoked by uid 60001); 27 May 2005 15:49:00 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jfdcsL7DS0/JPhDgJLi/sTkrbz9X5WnxZVLcsOPb2WoObySaH0wW3FZ59YdODX/ut4e5VaEx9/jOzKQcHE4URrNFkOLDjRa+3jOa4edqxzIm28dZNeTtHOa0HqN80WHSjM0Hu+7kQsifj+pNtwS8p8EVV2+vnC2rO3YUgb4n8ow= ; Message-ID: <20050527154900.39445.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [140.247.192.239] by web20528.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:49:00 PDT Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Advanced preferences and plaintext savefiles To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-398117866-1117208940=:32826" X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:51:44 -0000 --0-398117866-1117208940=:32826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Au contraire, I think adding the non-binary saves option to the preferences window is a VETY important feature and should not be removed. We have always had plaintext saves until recently, and I don't remember "cheating" being an problem. Besides it isn't our job to keep people from editing their savefiles or cheating in a single player game. It's like the issue of save/loading, we should let people play the game however they want. Secondly for non-linux users using the command line isn't as easy as you may think. I think there are a lot of mac and windows developers who might be confused by having to use command line commands to edit savefiles. Having an advanced preferences window is so much easier to use. Being able to read your savefiles makes life a lot easier for campaign developers, becuase you can check variables and unit stats mid-scenario. I'm really looking forward to this new feature, and think it would be a shame if it was removed. -Asa Nils Kneuper wrote: I also think that the new menu item should at least be adjusted, so that it behaves like the other ones. It is very counter intuitive. But i think more important is the question, if we really do need that item. I do not think we do, because we have the option to decompress them via cmd-line. And I think that it would be good to have a new release quite soon. CU Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic _______________________________________________ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! --0-398117866-1117208940=:32826 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
Au contraire, I think adding the non-binary saves option to the preferences window is a VETY important feature and should not be removed. We have always had plaintext saves until recently, and I don't remember "cheating" being an problem. Besides it isn't our job to keep people from editing their savefiles or cheating in a single player game. It's like the issue of save/loading, we should let people play the game however they want.
 
Secondly for non-linux users using the command line isn't as easy as you may think. I think there are a lot of mac and windows developers who might be confused by having to use command line commands to edit savefiles. Having an advanced preferences window is so much easier to use.
 
Being able to read your savefiles makes life a lot easier for campaign developers, becuase you can check variables and unit stats mid-scenario. I'm really looking forward to this new feature, and think it would be a shame if it was removed.
 
-Asa

Nils Kneuper <Crazy-Ivanovic@gmx.net> wrote:
I also think that the new menu item should at least be adjusted, so
that it behaves like the other ones. It is very counter intuitive. But
i think more important is the question, if we really do need that
item. I do not think we do, because we have the option to decompress
them via cmd-line.
And I think that it would be good to have a new release quite soon.
CU
Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic



_______________________________________________
Wesnoth-dev mailing list
Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org
http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! --0-398117866-1117208940=:32826-- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 12:07:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbhMV-0003L2-TK for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:07:04 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbhMP-0003Fu-Qh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:06:58 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbhMM-0003Dy-A0 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:06:54 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbhMM-0003DL-7B for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:06:54 -0400 Received: from [64.233.170.207] (helo=rproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbhJR-0001w3-ST for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:03:54 -0400 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so96618rny for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mKow74KCmrETLkyoONM91GsWFMmMcVAXSV8zlPo2cqyG0fNRahSC/p/mGdcbcO7uXEUx46WGkP8aQRlWQaJRRUVCFZm9mne4I6wYS3F+nlfNDS9BUsbH+g5At9ygJZ5vJeLbdLkEiCpPbFYGGjAsuYTCyvgDcg8FbyAYoMhl8Hk= Received: by 10.11.119.1 with SMTP id r1mr110005cwc; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.119.36 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2005 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9b3d01e050527090257df63ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:02:58 +0200 From: Guillaume Melquiond To: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Advanced preferences and plaintext savefiles In-Reply-To: <20050527154900.39445.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050527154900.39445.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Guillaume Melquiond List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:07:00 -0000 On 5/27/05, Asa Swain wrote: > =20 > Au contraire, I think adding the non-binary saves option to the preferenc= es > window is a VETY important feature and should not be removed. We have alw= ays > had plaintext saves until recently, and I don't remember "cheating" being= an > problem. Besides it isn't our job to keep people from editing their > savefiles or cheating in a single player game. It's like the issue of > save/loading, we should let people play the game however they want.=20 > =20 > Secondly for non-linux users using the command line isn't as easy as you = may > think. I think there are a lot of mac and windows developers who might be > confused by having to use command line commands to edit savefiles. Having= an > advanced preferences window is so much easier to use.=20 > =20 > Being able to read your savefiles makes life a lot easier for campaign > developers, becuase you can check variables and unit stats mid-scenario. = I'm > really looking forward to this new feature, and think it would be a shame= if > it was removed.=20 You are forgetting that binary saves have *always* been a preference option. This is not something new, it was already available before. And it isn't related at all to the command-line, you don't need a command line to change the option. The command-line is needed to decompress binary savefile. And even though the option is now displayed in the preferences dialog box, this need has not disappeared, you still have to use the command-line to decompress savefiles. So the only thing new is the way the option is now displayed in the preferences dialog box. And as much customizable the "advanced" part of the dialog box is, I still find it quite ugly. So I wouldn't mind if it was not visible in standard game mode. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 13:44:07 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbisQ-0007l3-B0 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:44:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbisK-0007gK-4p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:44:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbisF-0007fO-PD for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:43:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbisF-0007fL-Jn for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:43:55 -0400 Received: from [128.118.29.2] (helo=cosmos.gravity.psu.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbinQ-0007tT-37 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:38:56 -0400 Received: from einstein.gravity.psu.edu (einstein.gravity.psu.edu [128.118.29.115]) by cosmos.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036109A94F for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix, from userid 59081) id D997C94F30; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by einstein.gravity.psu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BE394F2F for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John McNabb To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] [advancefrom] tag patch X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:44:04 -0000 All, I have committed the [advancefrom] tag (patch#3625) with only minor changes to bring it up-to-date. This will allow user campaign developers to add new units into the unit tree without needing to modify existing units by having the new unit have a tag of the form: [advancefrom] unit=Necromancer [/advancefrom] [advancefrom] unit=White Mage experience=50 [/advancefrom] if the experience field is defined AND less then the current xp required to advance the unit, the experience requirement is lowered. This means if many units have [advancefrom] tags with different experience values, the one with the lowest value will be used. Note that this should never be used in main-line units and probably should be in an appropriate #ifdef CAMPAIGN type clause (or whatever the proper WML for that sort of thing is) to prevent pollution of the regular unit tree when not using that campaign. Since I am still unable to access the forum, could someone post this? Next week I will be traveling, so it is possible that I will actually be able to access the forum for the first time in a while, but I am not sure that I will be able to. I really need to harass my University about this routing issue :( Enjoy, John, aka Darth Fool -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." ------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. C. McNabb ------------------------------------------------------------------- From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 14:51:42 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbjvq-0007M1-0S for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:51:42 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbjvn-0007L1-G8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:51:40 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbjvl-0007JY-Fb for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:51:37 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbjvl-0007II-6x for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:51:37 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.42] (helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbjuO-0003h2-UA for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:50:13 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbifJ-0005iJ-4a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:30:33 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbi1W-00062w-3T for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:49:26 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Richard Shimooka Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:49:25 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1Dbi1W-00062w-3T X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: lSS29MZXGPo X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:51:40 -0000 > Those subscribed to the commit message mailing list will have already=20= > seen that I've added a level-3 flyer - moreover, I have added marksman=20= > to the flyer line. > This would normally overpower the faction, but this is part of a=20 > larger change at work. Firstly I'd say it would be prudent that if any change is committed it=20= should be discussed beforehand... not presented as fait accompli. These=20= need to be discussed and argued over even before they are tested. This=20= is especially true of changes that are as major as what you are=20 suggesting. Also it would be nice if they were all revealed at once,=20 rather than piecemeal. I'm not against a completely new balancing per=20 say, however its fairly difficult to discern the effects of such a=20 major change in a faction if its revealed one by one. Also as I think that at this point there should be a less emphasis on=20 "rebuilding the entire race" when really the drakes are fairly good as=20= is, and don't need massive change. This is especially true given that=20= people want to see a v 1.0 being put out in the near future, we=20 shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water by making new major=20 changes. Instead the focus should be on little changes that would=20 enhance the already good base we have right now. Balancing is an=20 insanely difficult task, and making one change is tough enough to see=20 the effects, say nothing of 5 different changes. I think more focus=20 should be placed on the problems at hand rather than making whole new=20 headaches. > Sometime within the next week, I am going to completely remake the=20 > saurian tribalist line - graphics and all. A number of people, Sanna=20= > especially, have complained about factions being or becoming too=20 > similar, a sentiment which I agree with. The tribalist is having his=20= > magic attack replaced with a drain attack (along with the rest of his=20= > line). The level-2 branch is also being collapsed, since it had=20 > little utility. Hitpoints are being increased, slightly. The unit's=20= > stats were originally created NOT under the aegis of "every faction=20 > needs a unit with a magic attack," but rather under the more=20 > destructive "every faction needs a 'mage'." This is quite nearly the=20= > antithesis of faction differentiation. > Does every faction need a lvl3? Isn't that a lack of differentiation=20 right there (and unit bloat at the same time?) Clearly however I and most other MP players have a serious problem with=20= your proposed change of tribalist magic attack to drain. In multiplayer=20= games the the tribalist is a vital unit for dislodging entrenched high=20= defence units like the assassin, elvish archers in the forest and=20 knalgans on mountains. removing it would cripple the Drakes ability to=20= conduct effective offensive operations. > > Besides all of this, it has never seemed right to me that in a faction=20= > with _fire_breathing_dragons, a primary ranged offensive unit was=20 > something else. If nothing else, the tribalist should really be=20 > de-emphasized as a combat unit, and formed into what it was originally=20= > intended to be - a support unit. Almost all players right now hire=20 > the tribalist for his attack capability, not his healing. > So? Just because it was intended to be something and it fit another=20 role even better doesn't mean it should be changed, unless it was=20 unbalancing. Right now it occupies a unique role within the faction,=20 and your proposed changes to make up for it (as I'll discuss later) is=20= a poor substitute. > By having a ranged drain attack, several things are accomplished: > a] It is a unique configuration which no other faction has. =20 > +faction_differentiation The saurian is a unique unit, far more weak than its counterpart "mage=20= units" but with added healing trait. Really I use it more against other=20= secondary units like archers or entrenched knalgans, not the typical=20 targets that other magic units are used for. I think most people would=20= agree as it stands its "differentiated enough" and strikes a good=20 balance between gameplay and flavour. . > b] It removes the clich=E9 "mage" unit from the saurians. =20 > +faction_differentiation Cliche? Its game based in a Fantasy setting. I'd expect some magic=20 being around. Moreover you use the argument that > c] It fits better with the "voodoo/witch doctor/serpentine/jungle"=20 > flavor of the unit's magic style +flavor I can agree with this point, but I think its a minor quibble, and the=20 balancing concerns outweigh it in this case. > d] It makes the unit less volatile - harder to kill with, harder to=20= > get killed +gameplay As I stated before, drain isn't going to cut it. I've spoken about this=20= before in other areas, the cold magic attack for the tribalist is one=20 of the "key skills" that certain factions rely upon (like assassin's=20 poison and the Ulf's berzerk). Removing it just unbalances the faction=20= and causes far more problems. > e] It makes the unit MUCH less common on the battlefield - fitting=20 > with the idea of magic being rare and powerful. +flavor > You're repeating yourself, B and E are essentially the same. I count=20 three lvl-1 units that have magic across four factions... thats not=20 that much, especially given that it is a "fantasy based setting." > > > A side benefit of this is that the sky drake, which is currently of=20 > questionable use when compared with saurian skirmishers, will become a=20= > much more generally useful unit. Drake players will have a choice of=20= > attacking with a unit that can help to ensure a hit, or a unit that=20 > can do a lot of damage. Additionally, by having marksman, the drake=20= > flyer will still be vulnerable to retaliation during the opponents=20 > turn - marksman activates only on the offense, not during retaliation. > Ummm sky drake, questionable use? I think that its quite the opposite=20 as being one of the most effective scouts in the game. this is=20 especially true when Saurian skirmisher gets its long needed movement=20 roll back. In its current 7 movement form its completely unbalanced as=20= has been pointed out over and over again. Really its the reason why so=20= few people are using drakes these days on multiplayer. Right now people=20= are being asked not to play as drakes because of the saurian rush=20 strategy. So its not going to be able to be able to scout like it used=20= to. Moreover at this present time its cheaper than other scout units so=20= I think it doesn't need a change. Secondly what is the rational of=20 having marksmanship? Conceptually it doesn't make sense, and even less=20= so on a gameplay basis. If you think this will make up for removing=20 magical from the tribalist's attack, it won't. firstly, against elvish=20= archers in a forest or a thunderer on a mountain the glider with 20%=20 less defence against pierce and poorer defence will not be effective at=20= all. This brings me to a third point. At this point the drakes already are a=20= expensive race, and individuals have been griping about this. your=20 changes will likely result in the flyer being upped in price... which=20 is exactly not what is needed for an already expensive race. I think that with the exception of some of the obvious problems I've=20 already pointed out that these changes should not be applied. It makes=20= little sense to make such major changes, ones which will have a=20 detrimental effect on the already problematic balance in wesnoth. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 15:41:57 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkiT-000609-Mq for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:41:57 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkiQ-0005z7-6C for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:41:56 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkiP-0005yK-7Z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:41:53 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkhN-0005DQ-Cm for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:40:49 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbkHN-00050i-Kh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:13:57 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 May 2005 19:12:59 -0000 Received: from p83.129.7.76.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.7.76] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 27 May 2005 21:12:59 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:13:51 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1727469968.20050527211351@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions In-Reply-To: <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:41:56 -0000 I also do speak in favour of leaving the drakes like they were in 0.9.1. Somebalancing in the direction of resistances / defense might be good, but adding new units is not a good idea if we really want to get closer to 1.0. Though I like the fraction of the drakes and some more levels would be cool for them, they are not really needed. I'd propose to revert the changes and go more into the direction of balancing. The same counts for me in the case of the "high elves". This could really destroy balancing. In 0.9.1 Kalenz had fire damage which is good against undead. He was a really good help against them. Now he is rather worthless, because they are resistant to cold damage. All in all I would say that we should try to keep the unit tree like it was in 0.9.1. There already were really many units and fractions. More can be done via User Addition and we could provide these on the campaign server, but please not for the mainline. I'd say that it would be good to do some balancing. For this we should somehow listen to the experienced MP-Players a bit more, because they normally know quite well, what is not good against humans. What is imba against humans is not best against ai. So if MP was more balanced (though it is quite well in default era ATM, i think) it would also be good for normal campaigns. It would be really good if some work would be done to complete SotBE and tdh. Or we should think about leaving them out. The campaigns really look "not ready" at all. I do not know who is working on these and if there is progress in this work. I would speak in favour of leaving them out but include a user campaign as mainline. I think Under the Burning sun is quite good and could be included as mainline. Espicially since it is by far more complete than sotbe and tdh. If we really want to make a step to the release of 1.0 in the nearer future, something has to be done with these two campaigns. Mhm, sorry for getting of track with this post this much, CU Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 15:42:26 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkhH-0005Qi-J7 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:40:47 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkh6-0005L4-PB for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:40:33 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkh0-0005IG-KY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:40:29 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkh0-0005DQ-8d for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:40:26 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.42] (helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbkSf-0005X1-Nj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:25:37 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkRj-00049E-5a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 20:24:39 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbkRG-00047n-5n for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 20:24:10 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <55cec3380e6bc2d30fa94e54e571dbbb@aber.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard S. Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:24:10 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1DbkRG-00047n-5n X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: lSS29MZXGPo X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:40:37 -0000 > > > Please, let me know if there is some important bug that should be > closed or a > nice feature that you want to push in before releasing Wesnoth 0.9.2 I don't know if this is just because the changelog hasn't been updated but many of the discussed balancing issues have not been undertaken. These include the Ulf Reversion to 8.9, the decrease in the ranger melee attack to 4-2, the reduction of the saurian movement by 1 (and a possible increase of one gold as well) and the decrease of the cost of the fencer to 17. There were others but I think it was generally agreed that these were major issues that were brought forward as being desperately in need of resolution by the multiplayer community. Some of them were agreed by Sirp, but I don't want to put words in his mouth and neither do I know exactly where they are decisionwise but they must be dealt with immediately as they are major outstanding issues in gameplay. From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 15:50:37 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkqq-0000Eh-Oc for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:50:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkql-0000BQ-68 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:50:31 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkqi-00008k-7H for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:50:28 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbkqh-000084-UU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:50:28 -0400 Received: from [213.95.27.1] (helo=rot13.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DbknR-0006p2-J6 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 15:47:05 -0400 Received: from majestyk by rot13.de with local (Exim 4.34) id 1DbkmQ-0007TN-1W; Fri, 27 May 2005 21:46:02 +0200 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:46:02 +0200 From: Andreas Grosse To: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Advanced preferences and plaintext savefiles Message-ID: <20050527194601.GB28099@rot13.de> Mail-Followup-To: Asa Swain , wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org References: <20050527154900.39445.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050527154900.39445.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:50:34 -0000 Asa Swain [27:05:05 17:50] wrote: > Au contraire, I think adding the non-binary saves option to the > preferences window is a VETY important feature and should not be removed. > We have always had plaintext saves until recently, and I don't remember > "cheating" being an problem. Besides it isn't our job to keep people from > editing their savefiles or cheating in a single player game. It's like the > issue of save/loading, we should let people play the game however they > want. I wonder what the fuss is about that cheating issue. I mentioned it in a subordinate clause, as one point of five?, and definitely not the main reason. If I would have known that it is a hot topic, I would have left it out completely. When I was talking about removing, I did not mean to remove the feature, I meant to remove the tab for enabling/disabling it. > Secondly for non-linux users using the command line isn't as easy as you > may think. I think there are a lot of mac and windows developers who might > be confused by having to use command line commands to edit savefiles. > Having an advanced preferences window is so much easier to use. And as I was talking about the console, I primarily meant the in-game console. Having the binary saves as a in-game console command would be sufficient for developers, and hide that setting from people who would most likely never need it. Cheers, majestyk From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 16:39:55 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DblcY-0000js-Is for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:54 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DblcV-0000hV-1f for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DblcS-0000g0-DL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:48 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DblcR-0000d2-U4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:47 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.42] (helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DblOj-0000QJ-Fy for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 16:25:37 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=braint.aber.ac.uk) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DblNm-00070D-5P for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 21:24:38 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by braint.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DblN2-0006yp-5h for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 21:23:52 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <55cec3380e6bc2d30fa94e54e571dbbb@aber.ac.uk> References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <55cec3380e6bc2d30fa94e54e571dbbb@aber.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard S. Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2- correction Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:23:52 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1DblN2-0006yp-5h X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: lSS29MZXGPo X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:39:52 -0000 Sorry a slight typo on my part, I meant 7-3 for the Ranger as a downgrade not 4-2. sorry for the confusion all. On 27 May 2005, at 20:24, Richard S. wrote: >> >> >> Please, let me know if there is some important bug that should be >> closed or a >> nice feature that you want to push in before releasing Wesnoth 0.9.2 > > I don't know if this is just because the changelog hasn't been updated > but many of the discussed balancing issues have not been undertaken. > These include the Ulf Reversion to 8.9, the decrease in the ranger > melee attack to 4-2, the reduction of the saurian movement by 1 (and a > possible increase of one gold as well) and the decrease of the cost of > the fencer to 17. There were others but I think it was generally > agreed that these were major issues that were brought forward as being > desperately in need of resolution by the multiplayer community. Some > of them were agreed by Sirp, but I don't want to put words in his > mouth and neither do I know exactly where they are decisionwise but > they must be dealt with immediately as they are major outstanding > issues in gameplay. > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 17:10:14 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbm5t-0000FS-4A for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:10:13 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbm5n-0000Bs-Fh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:10:08 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbm5j-000087-Bq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:10:03 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbm5g-00006c-WC for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:10:01 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbm01-0002Mu-Rz for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 17:04:10 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 May 2005 21:03:10 -0000 Received: from p83.129.7.76.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.7.76] by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 27 May 2005 23:03:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:04:02 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:10:08 -0000 Hi everyone! In my last mail I wrote some stuff that seems rather important to me, so I do not want to have it lost in a "dead-thread". Some of the points also justify a thread for their own. This one will be quite long, so sorry for this. I Think we should really head for 1.0. The game looks very complete to me, though there are some points I want to menition in this mail, that could need some work: 1) CAMPAIGNS: Some of the campaigns do not fit into mainline at the moment. Either we should work on them, or we should kick them out. I am speaking of SotBE and TdH. These are incomplete and do not really fit to the rest. We should also consider getting them completely out of the game and maybe getting one or two good and complete user campaigns into it instead. Also it would be nice if at least one campaign was designed for beginners that do not have much experience in playing TBS games. They maybe only played the tutorial and find httt very hard afterwards. At least one campaign should be winnable by an unexpierienced user even on medium. 2) UNITS: Is it really needed to get in more units? The units in 0.9.1 were looking quite complete. Should we really add more units to the game? There are already very many units. This makes it hard for beginners and even harder to balance. We should leave the units (and their attacks) like they were. We should only change it, when balancing (next point) needs it. I really like the idea of having more drakes personally, but I do not think it is good for the game. This will make our progress into the direction of 1.0 by far harder. I do think they should stay like they are now. I also do strongly speak against adding the high elves. This will destroy several stuff again. Changing Kalenz to have a "cold" attack, makes httt somehow imba, because you have to fight undead in some missions in which Kalenz already joind you. And cold is really not good against undead. Maybe httt has completele be revised now. Because of this I speak for reverting the changes to Kalenz. The high-elves may be added as "unofficial-unit-pack". I do not think we do really need them for mainline, though they are a nice idea after all. But not for mainline ATM. 3) BALANCING: This one is the hardest points. All the unit additions and changes of the last days, like changing the saurian, are not best for the game I think. The drakes were playable because of this unit that easyly died if you are not carefull enough. Witout a magic attack, they will only be like the rest. The drakes will be weak and not really usable at all. I think we should have the units features like in 0.9.1. Some changes for balancing are needed, yes. But I think multiplayermode in 0.9.1 was not too bad. Some tweaking to resistances and defnces or costs, yes. But NO big changes like complete new skills to some units (cf Tribalist and Sky Drake). For these balancing issues we should listen to the experienced MP-Players a lot more. If we get MP really balanced, single player will be rather balanced, too. The last balancing on singleplayer can be done by (very little) adjustments at the design of some maps. We got some good players, who know the best tactics, that are even willing to help us, why not listen to them? 4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: Are there more extra features for 1.0 needed? The game looks somehow feature complete to me. There may be stuff that could be adjusted and improved (modularisation) but these things could also break a lot. I do speak in favour of letting the game like it is now, concentrate (mainly) on fixing bugs and get it really stable so that 1.0 can be realsed. If you know any knew features that really do need to make it in, feel free to mail. 5) TRANSLATIONS: That one is the point that concerns me most personally. We do have to make a decission when we should add a translation to 1.0. Should there only be complete translations, or also the ones just started? I would like it, if we included the complete ones, and make it optional to install others when they are completed. It could work with a check for the existance of the dir of the corresponding language. I do not think it would be good to have a translation in the game where only 10% are translated. What do you think of this? 6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: I do really think we do need someone that leads the game to 1.0 it has to be done with a rather hard hand. The person doing it should be familiar with the complete game and the code. So I am not able to do this (puhhhh). I would really like it if Dave could continue until 1.0 is out and hand it over afterwards? I think we could really complete Wesnoth to be in the state of releasing 1.0 very soon. It should be possible to do this in the term of this year. Sometime between autumn and christmas it could be done, so please Dave, stay this long and lead us. So these are the main points I wanted to write about. As I already said, it was quite much, but I think it had to be written. Please comment on this and help to release 1.0 soon. Cheers, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 18:17:32 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbn91-0006Le-Cl for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:17:31 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbn8v-0006JK-Ul for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:17:26 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbn8t-0006HE-6O for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:17:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbn8t-0006HB-3C for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:17:23 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.64] (helo=sccrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dbmsf-0004nF-4X for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 18:00:37 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005052721593701600rd7q8e>; Fri, 27 May 2005 21:59:38 +0000 Message-ID: <42979848.8000801@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:59:36 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ott Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> <20050527154510.GA7848@dns.net> In-Reply-To: <20050527154510.GA7848@dns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:17:28 -0000 The intention of the feature was to be accessible by all users, and to easily allow access to 'advanced' features. It has been against the Wesnoth philosophy from the beginning to try to hide features from users or stop them from cheating in single player games. David ott wrote: >On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 04:44:54PM +0200, Andreas Grosse wrote: > > >>As I already pointed out in my last mail, I don't think that the >>"Advanced" tab should be distributed to the public. >> >> > >It was added by Dave after a general hum that there were some options that >it would be nice to be able to add in a general fashion. I don't think >it is meant to be the final form of the feature, but as a demonstration >of how to add features where much of the work is done in WML, and perhaps >a test bed of proposed new options that might or might not make it into >the game. Apologies if I misinterpreted Dave's intentions. > >The two options that are currently there are for the convenience of >developers. Perhaps we should enable the Advanced prefs only if the >game is in debug mode. > >I think the design of the game hasn't focused on making cheating >difficult -- Dave has said this in many forum postings. Therefore, >retrofitting cheat protection that offers realistic protection before >1.0 seems infeasible. I suggest we postpone worrying about cheating >until after 1.0, when a refactoring is probably in order anyway. > >-- ott@gaon.net > > >_______________________________________________ >Wesnoth-dev mailing list >Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > From MAILER-DAEMON Fri May 27 22:15:45 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbqrY-0002sQ-BW for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 22:15:44 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbqrP-0002mz-4l for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 22:15:35 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbqrL-0002kw-0Q for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 22:15:32 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbqrK-0002RL-7z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 22:15:30 -0400 Received: from [216.136.227.63] (helo=web20528.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbqjM-000879-Sf for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 22:07:17 -0400 Received: (qmail 21679 invoked by uid 60001); 28 May 2005 02:06:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=vcy+tWWMjM0ysFXYlvtQ9GWj8cXr3WbozgLzVEvX1C5zJ5A459PHj0YTwg/CJotYTtGGpD9PgmpHKUCPNMCULwWY2P0ZGdDQTg0IXg2IwMO3UZVXyRs0NDeTaiMvK/WPIoT0E9U6LT0UhAh4gUCl1idcg6phDRoaqfef4MnhKqY= ; Message-ID: <20050528020614.21677.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.60.131.93] by web20528.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2005 19:06:14 PDT Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:06:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] response to Aiming for 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org In-Reply-To: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:15:40 -0000 Nils makes some good points in this post. I wanted to respond to a few. Campaigns: I agree that unless it gets completed somehow, in it's current form "The Dark Hordes" is the weakest campaign currently included. It's a shame because it's one of the only campaigns I know of that feature the Undead. But in it's unfinished form, I don't think it's appropriate for 1.0. Assuming that all campaigns in 1.0 should be completed. I'm not sure about Son of the Black Eye. Like the dark hordes, it's one of the only campaigns featuring the orcs/northeners, so I think it is useful becuase it allows players to play as the orcs. I haven't played it in a long time, so i don't know if certain scenarios are broken, but I don't mind it being just chapter 1 of an unfinished longer storyline. There is a balance in the current campaigns, HttT allows you to play as rebels/elves, TDH allows you to play undead, EI and TRoW allows you to play as Loyalists and SoTBE allows you to play as Orcs. If we judge the campaigns on how balanced they are, not based on if they are complete, then TDH and SoTBE are very useful, because all together thse 5 cvampaigns let players play most of the main races/factions in the game. It's useful to be able to play undead and orcs in single player campaigns before trying our these factions in multiplayer. If there are campaigns featuring undead or orcs that are better quality than the current ones then I could see switching them out. But while I agree that some of the current campaigns are rather lacking in completeness, I can also see why racially it helps to have them. As for the perfect tutorial campaign, the obvious choice is "The South guard", it's a complete easy difficulty campaign with an engaging storyline. Units: let's wait to decide about the high elves until Jetryl actually finished them. Right now I think they would make fine units for a campaign. Unless the resulting campaign became a core campaign I see little reason why the units would be included in the mainline build. Balancing a race for a special campaign is a lot easier than trying to balance it in the multiplayer arena. So unless they became very popular I think it's unlikely we would add them to the multiplayer faction list. But we can cross that bridge when we get to it. Speaking of multiplayer factions and units, I'd still like to see the outlaws removed from the dwarves factions and perhaps 1 or 2 new drawf units be added. But that certainly isn't a necessity to finish the game. I guess that's all for now. -Asa --- Nils Kneuper wrote: > Hi everyone! > In my last mail I wrote some stuff that seems rather > important to me, > so I do not want to have it lost in a "dead-thread". > Some of the > points also justify a thread for their own. This one > will be quite > long, so sorry for this. > I Think we should really head for 1.0. The game > looks very complete to > me, though there are some points I want to menition > in this mail, that > could need some work: > > 1) CAMPAIGNS: > Some of the campaigns do not fit into mainline at > the moment. > Either we should work on them, or we should kick > them out. I am > speaking of SotBE and TdH. These are incomplete and > do not really fit > to the rest. > We should also consider getting them completely out > of the game and > maybe getting one or two good and complete user > campaigns into it > instead. > Also it would be nice if at least one campaign was > designed for > beginners that do not have much experience in > playing TBS games. They > maybe only played the tutorial and find httt very > hard afterwards. At > least one campaign should be winnable by an > unexpierienced user even > on medium. > > 2) UNITS: > Is it really needed to get in more units? The units > in 0.9.1 were > looking quite complete. Should we really add more > units to the game? > There are already very many units. This makes it > hard for beginners > and even harder to balance. > We should leave the units (and their attacks) like > they were. We > should only change it, when balancing (next point) > needs it. > I really like the idea of having more drakes > personally, but I do not > think it is good for the game. This will make our > progress into the > direction of 1.0 by far harder. I do think they > should stay like they > are now. > I also do strongly speak against adding the high > elves. This will > destroy several stuff again. Changing Kalenz to have > a "cold" attack, > makes httt somehow imba, because you have to fight > undead in some > missions in which Kalenz already joind you. And cold > is really not > good against undead. Maybe httt has completele be > revised now. Because > of this I speak for reverting the changes to Kalenz. > The high-elves may be added as > "unofficial-unit-pack". I do not think > we do really need them for mainline, though they are > a nice idea after > all. But not for mainline ATM. > > 3) BALANCING: > This one is the hardest points. All the unit > additions and changes of > the last days, like changing the saurian, are not > best for the game I > think. The drakes were playable because of this unit > that easyly died > if you are not carefull enough. Witout a magic > attack, they will only > be like the rest. The drakes will be weak and not > really usable at > all. > I think we should have the units features like in > 0.9.1. Some changes > for balancing are needed, yes. But I think > multiplayermode in 0.9.1 > was not too bad. Some tweaking to resistances and > defnces or costs, > yes. But NO big changes like complete new skills to > some units (cf > Tribalist and Sky Drake). > For these balancing issues we should listen to the > experienced > MP-Players a lot more. If we get MP really balanced, > single player > will be rather balanced, too. The last balancing on > singleplayer can > be done by (very little) adjustments at the design > of some maps. We > got some good players, who know the best tactics, > that are even willing > to help us, why not listen to them? > > 4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: > Are there more extra features for 1.0 needed? The > game looks somehow > feature complete to me. There may be stuff that > could be adjusted and > improved (modularisation) but these things could > also break a lot. I > do speak in favour of letting the game like it is > now, concentrate > (mainly) on fixing bugs and get it really stable so > that 1.0 can be > realsed. If you know any knew features that really > do need to make it > in, feel free to mail. > > 5) TRANSLATIONS: > That one is the point that concerns me most > personally. We do have to > make a decission when we should add a translation to > 1.0. Should there > only be complete translations, or also the ones just > started? I would > like it, if we included the complete ones, and make > it optional to > install others when they are completed. It could > work with a check for > the existance of the dir of the corresponding > language. > I do not think it would be good to have a > translation in the game > where only 10% are translated. What do you think of > this? > > 6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: > I do really think we do need someone that leads the > game to 1.0 it has > to be done with a rather hard hand. The person doing > it should be > familiar with the complete game and the code. So I > am not able to do > this (puhhhh). I would really like it if Dave could > continue until 1.0 > is out and hand it over afterwards? > I think we could really complete Wesnoth to be in > the state of > releasing 1.0 very soon. It should be possible to do > this in the term > of this year. Sometime between autumn and christmas > it could be done, > so please Dave, stay this long and lead us. > > So these are the main points I wanted to write > about. As I already > said, it was quite much, but I think it had to be > written. Please > comment on this and help to release 1.0 soon. > Cheers, > Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org > http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 03:36:42 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbvs9-0002IW-MX for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:36:41 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbvs7-0002HY-RS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:36:39 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbvs5-0002G4-8Y for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:36:37 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dbvs5-0002Fj-4O for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:36:37 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbvnZ-0002q2-5o for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:31:57 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.47] (unverified [209.131.231.47]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 02:30:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <1727469968.20050527211351@gmx.net> References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> <1727469968.20050527211351@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6e1a63b9b1537ecf6acea31ec89aaed9@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:29:49 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:36:40 -0000 On May 27, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Nils Kneuper wrote: > I also do speak in favour of leaving the drakes like they were in > 0.9.1. Somebalancing in the direction of resistances / defense might > be good, but adding new units is not a good idea if we really want to > get closer to 1.0. Though I like the fraction of the drakes and some > more levels would be cool for them, they are not really needed. I'd > propose to revert the changes and go more into the direction of > balancing. The #1 reason the drakes did not have level-3 units is because the graphics were not done. Many times in the history of this game, people have tried to canonize the existing state of the game. People opposed adding a third level to units like the elvish druid, and skeleton archer, and elvish rider, yet strangely those units have not done much damage. Level-3 units are not inherently unbalancing, in fact they are rather difficult to get and it is often more practical to spend all that experience on a lower-level troop. However, a *few* of them are vital in many situations - if a wesnoth army is a house, they are the support beams. They provide better leadership than level-2's, illumination, and other abilities, but more importantly offer concentrated combat capability when needed. Certain level-3's can either inflict great amounts of damage, or absorb it. They form the head of a charge, or the centerguard of a flank. A lack of level-3 units cripples a faction when they fight on equal terms with a faction that has level-3 units. This happens in both age of heroes, and single-player. A group of low-level elves charging around with a marshal, a shyde, and a sharpshooter in tow can lay waste even to equally-sized armies of level-2 units. The changes to the saurian were intended to balance a rather volatile unit - the unit was crippled in many respects to make up for a vicious attack that was originally given to the unit at its creation so that the unit would mimic the human mage. The relative damage of the unit was set at 5 rather than 7 to keep it from becoming too powerful, however the creator failed to anticipate the power that the unit's movetype enabled. Unlike the human mage, this unit had very good movement, and also had above-average defense. Thus, they gutted the hitpoints of the unit, and stripped the skirmisher ability - while the real problem with the unit was always the mage-imitating ranged attack, not to mention the much cheaper cost of the unit. > The same counts for me in the case of the "high elves". This could > really destroy balancing. The high elves were never intended to be on the rebel faction, ever. I was willing to let someone else put them on there if it kept them happy, but I'd rather they either have their own faction, or none. > In 0.9.1 Kalenz had fire damage which is > good against undead. He was a really good help against them. Now he is > rather worthless, because they are resistant to cold damage. Yet suddenly, he is very useful against anything vulnerable to cold, such as the human generals with armoredfoot, or higher-level human mages, who typically possess resistances to fire. There are no drakes in HttT right now, however the unit used by Kalenz is not a character-specific unit, but a general elven leader unit type, which can and has been used for several elvish lords in several scenarios. Besides, a single mage can do as much damage as kalenz could. A white mage, especially one like moremirmu, can make Kalenz useless on an undead map. > All in all I would say that we should try to keep the unit tree like > it was in 0.9.1. There already were really many units and fractions. > More can be done via User Addition and we could provide these on the > campaign server, but please not for the mainline. The unit tree in 9.1 was incomplete - the only reason I didn't add these units months ago was because I was busy spending all my time revising bad graphics and finishing up many sets of incomplete or unfinished graphics. Not to mention my many responsibilities in the real world. Some of our races, like the loyalists and the wood elves, are basically finished, however, other races like the drakes, the saurians, the dwarves, and the naga, are a half finished mess. I'm tempted to simply add all of the units I had been meaning to add in one fell swoop and just get it done with so people will stop complaining when things change under their feet, or when they fail to read what I'm doing when I post about it. Obviously unfinished units and bad graphics are some of the things that really mar wesnoth's "professional" polish. Wesnoth is a work in progress - some things are finished, some things are barely started. It always struck me as strange when people in the 0.6 era would post wondering why the game wasn't 1.0, and it still strikes me as strange right now - indeed I worry that some will try to artificially add the 1.0 title to something that is far from ready for release. > I'd say that it would be good to do some balancing. For this we should > somehow listen to the experienced MP-Players a bit more, because they > normally know quite well, what is not good against humans. What is > imba against humans is not best against ai. So if MP was more balanced > (though it is quite well in default era ATM, i think) it would also be > good for normal campaigns. Balancing would be good - meaningful balancing of a full and finished set of units would be a whole lot better. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 04:03:49 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwIP-0001pP-GM for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:03:49 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwIG-0001jB-8S for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:03:40 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwI7-0001dd-Kg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:03:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwI7-0001cV-AX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:03:31 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbwEA-0003pJ-B5 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:59:26 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.47] (unverified [209.131.231.47]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 02:58:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:58:15 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:03:43 -0000 On May 27, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Nils Kneuper wrote: > I Think we should really head for 1.0. The game looks very complete to > me, The game looks like a half-finished mess to me, and one which needs at least six months before we could think of calling it 1.0. > 1) CAMPAIGNS: Great ideas, I agree wholeheartedly. > 2) UNITS: > Is it really needed to get in more units? The units in 0.9.1 were > looking quite complete. Should we really add more units to the game? Yes, without a doubt. Some races/factions are completely finished - others are barely half finished. Dwarves, drakes, and the naga are simply not done. Wesnoth is a work in progress, like a half-finished painting. We've done the detail work on some sections, but others are just a rough sketch. HOWEVER, the end is in sight - the important thing is not "adding units" per se, but is finishing factions. I would say our current factions need less than 12 units to have all current factions basically finished. After that, we can work on improving the graphics of the units. We recently got support for dying animations. Adding walking animations to our units, which we currently lack support for, would vault us into a new level of quality. > 3) BALANCING: Our biggest balancing concerns come from - surprise surprise - the factions that are unfinished. Balancing is a major concern, but trying to balance something that is unfinished is asking for a failure, which is what our current dwarves and drakes are. They are a royal mess. Other factions, such as the loyalists and rebels, are in very good shape. > 4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: A real, scriptable, sprite engine might be nice, and I'd like to try my hand at coding one this summer. > 6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: > I would really like it if Dave could continue until 1.0 is out and > hand it over afterwards? I fear for what may happen in his absence. I myself would like to wash my hands of this affair, sometime after the next 9 or 10 months. However, if the new lead does not have the foresight which so marked Dave, I doubt I will stay that long. I joined here to refine my rather limited skills at artwork, and making more sprites is not helping. However, I'd like to have something that I'd be proud to show off in the years down the road, rather than something people sneer at, as they do now. Thus I am happy to continue forging as much as I can over the coming months - I have a lot of free time in the next few months. > I think we could really complete Wesnoth to be in the state of > releasing 1.0 very soon. It should be possible to do this in the term > of this year. Sometime between autumn and christmas it could be done, > so please Dave, stay this long and lead us. Yes - as I said, something along the lines of six months or so, and we could call this thing good, depending on what gets done. I have a lot of work to do, if people will let me. > So these are the main points I wanted to write about. As I already > said, it was quite much, but I think it had to be written. Please > comment on this and help to release 1.0 soon. > Cheers, > Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 04:09:31 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwNu-0004AQ-QO for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:09:31 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwNs-00047i-JM for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:09:28 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwNp-00046D-Uj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:09:26 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbwNo-00044e-V3 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:09:25 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbwH8-0003wF-Ja for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:02:30 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.47] (unverified [209.131.231.47]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:01:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <1896e0fb3e509806f56e152195555de3@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 03:01:19 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:09:29 -0000 On May 27, 2005, at 11:49 AM, Richard Shimooka wrote: > Firstly I'd say it would be prudent that if any change is committed it=20= > should be discussed beforehand... not presented as fait accompli.=20 > These need to be discussed and argued over even before they are=20 > tested. This is especially true of changes that are as major as what=20= > you are suggesting. Also it would be nice if they were all revealed=20= > at once, rather than piecemeal. I'm not against a completely new=20 > balancing per say, however its fairly difficult to discern the=20 > effects of such a major change in a faction if its revealed one by=20 > one. We did, and it is in the mailing list archives and the developer=20 discussions forum. Try reading. > Also as I think that at this point there should be a less emphasis on=20= > "rebuilding the entire race" when really the drakes are fairly good as=20= > is, and don't need massive change. This is especially true given that=20= > people want to see a v 1.0 being put out in the near future, we=20 > shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water by making new major=20= > changes. Instead the focus should be on little changes that would=20 > enhance the already good base we have right now. Our base right now is terrible, and needs major changes. Areas that=20 are basically fine are [wood elves, loyalists]. Areas that are ok but=20= need minor changes are [orcs, undead, mermen]. Areas that are terrible=20= and messily half-finished are [dwarves, drakes, saurians, naga]. > So? Just because it was intended to be something and it fit another=20 > role even better doesn't mean it should be changed, unless it was=20 > unbalancing. Right now it occupies a unique role within the faction, And design goes out the window... >> b] It removes the clich=E9 "mage" unit from the saurians. =20 >> +faction_differentiation > > Cliche? Its game based in a Fantasy setting. I'd expect some magic=20 > being around. Moreover you use the argument that Clich=E9, as in maybe the magic user doesn't have to throw around balls=20= of damage, eh? There are many other ways of representing magic other=20 than making them shoot fireballs and iceballs like they have some gun=20 that shoots magic instead of bullets. >> A side benefit of this is that the sky drake, which is currently of=20= >> questionable use when compared with saurian skirmishers, will become=20= >> a much more generally useful unit. Drake players will have a choice=20= >> of attacking with a unit that can help to ensure a hit, or a unit=20 >> that can do a lot of damage. Additionally, by having marksman, the=20= >> drake flyer will still be vulnerable to retaliation during the=20 >> opponents turn - marksman activates only on the offense, not during=20= >> retaliation. >> > > Secondly what is the rational of having marksmanship? Conceptually it=20= > doesn't make sense, and even less so on a gameplay basis. Read the description. And I thought you said conceptual stuff didn't=20 matter, anyways... > If you think this will make up for removing magical from the=20 > tribalist's attack, it won't. firstly, against elvish archers in a=20 > forest or a thunderer on a mountain the glider with 20% less defence=20= > against pierce and poorer defence will not be effective at all. That's 10%, but whatever... Maybe, like it's brethren the sky drake and hurricane drake, it should=20= get the fly movetype as well. > This brings me to a third point. At this point the drakes already are=20= > a expensive race, and individuals have been griping about this. your=20= > changes will likely result in the flyer being upped in price... which=20= > is exactly not what is needed for an already expensive race. > > I think that with the exception of some of the obvious problems I've=20= > already pointed out that these changes should not be applied. It makes=20= > little sense to make such major changes, ones which will have a=20 > detrimental effect on the already problematic balance in wesnoth. First you want me to make changes in complete blocks, then you want me=20= to do little "bite-sized" pieces one at a time.= From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 05:11:52 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxMD-0004X0-SY for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:11:50 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxM8-0004Vj-Ie for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:11:45 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxLz-0004SS-DU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:11:43 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxLy-0004N2-8k for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:11:34 -0400 Received: from [80.202.4.58] (helo=osl1smout1.broadpark.no) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbxBS-0006JA-C7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:00:42 -0400 Received: from osl1sminn1.broadpark.no ([80.202.4.59]) by osl1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IH700EUS5IS1A60@osl1smout1.broadpark.no> for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.0.0.2] ([80.202.221.148]) by osl1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IH600GEIZTIUOJ0@osl1sminn1.broadpark.no> for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 11:03:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:56:27 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hogne_H=E5skjold?= Subject: Re: adv. prefs ([Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2) In-reply-to: <42979848.8000801@comcast.net> To: David White Message-id: <4298323B.3010801@stud.ntnu.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> <20050527154510.GA7848@dns.net> <42979848.8000801@comcast.net> User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050331) Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:11:46 -0000 David White wrote: > The intention of the feature was to be accessible by all users, and= to=20 > easily allow access to 'advanced' features. >=20 > It has been against the Wesnoth philosophy from the beginning to tr= y to=20 > hide features from users or stop them from cheating in single playe= r games. >=20 > David >=20 I have two concerns when it comes to the advanced tab: 1. The UI is just horrible, it should look like the other tabs or be= =20 removed. 2. I fear it will become a dumping ground for all sort of options, it= =20 seems to be designed just for that. I believe in the firm position of= =20 having good defaults over hundreds of options. Is this no longer the= =20 case in Wesnoth? --=20 mvh (o_ Hogne H=E5skjold //\ V_/_ =09=09=09 From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 05:15:19 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxPZ-0006Kt-0q for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:15:17 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxPT-0006Ig-ED for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:15:12 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxPQ-0006Hg-CP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:15:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DbxPO-0006G3-Sz for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:15:07 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DbxNS-0006je-Vt for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 05:13:07 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 28 May 2005 09:12:00 -0000 Received: from p83.129.7.76.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.7.76] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 28 May 2005 11:12:00 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:12:53 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19177811703.20050528111253@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Fwd: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4297A8F8.9050904@lsimmons.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4297A8F8.9050904@lsimmons.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:15:13 -0000 FORWARDED THIS MAIL TO THE ML, BECAUSE ONLY I GOT IT: I do think we should head towards 1.0 pretty soon. A definite date would be helpful, athough I realize it would be hard to get one. >1) CAMPAIGNS: >Some of the campaigns do not fit into mainline at the moment. >Either we should work on them, or we should kick them out. I am >speaking of SotBE and TdH. These are incomplete and do not really fit >to the rest. >We should also consider getting them completely out of the game and >maybe getting one or two good and complete user campaigns into it >instead. >Also it would be nice if at least one campaign was designed for >beginners that do not have much experience in playing TBS games. They >maybe only played the tutorial and find httt very hard afterwards. At >least one campaign should be winnable by an unexpierienced user even >on medium. > > I would agree. So, what suggestions do people have? I nominate Liberty and South Guard. South Guard would be the easy campaign, and new players would play it right after the tutorial. >2) UNITS: >Is it really needed to get in more units? The units in 0.9.1 were >looking quite complete. Should we really add more units to the game? >There are already very many units. This makes it hard for beginners >and even harder to balance. >We should leave the units (and their attacks) like they were. We >should only change it, when balancing (next point) needs it. >I really like the idea of having more drakes personally, but I do not >think it is good for the game. This will make our progress into the >direction of 1.0 by far harder. I do think they should stay like they >are now. >I also do strongly speak against adding the high elves. This will >destroy several stuff again. Changing Kalenz to have a "cold" attack, >makes httt somehow imba, because you have to fight undead in some >missions in which Kalenz already joind you. And cold is really not >good against undead. Maybe httt has completele be revised now. Because >of this I speak for reverting the changes to Kalenz. >The high-elves may be added as "unofficial-unit-pack". I do not think >we do really need them for mainline, though they are a nice idea after >all. But not for mainline ATM. > > I do think new 1st level units are a bad idea. And definitely no new factions - those might be added after 1.0, but not before. HOWEVER, I feel pretty strongly that several more 2nd and 3rd level units are needed before the game is really 1.0-caliber. Branching, I think, is one of the most interesting parts of the game, and it is the most enjoyable part of campaigns - finding all the different types of units you can get. Right now, the Rebels, Loyalists, and, I think you could say, Undead have good advanced-unit diversity. None of the other factions do. I think that we should really focus on getting more advanced level units for the next could of months. We have several artists who are basically working on new factions as their pet projects. Perhaps we could post a list of wanted unit graphics and see what turns up? If nothing turns for a while, I'm fine with us saying that we should leave off adding new units until after 1.0, but that really is not my preferred solution. As for your points about the unbalancing effects of adding units - I don't think they really apply. In official campaigns, you don't ever control drakes , the only one where you control orcs is SOTBE, which will probably be removed (and is so unbalanced no changes could hurt it more), and the only time you control dwarves is the latter stages of HTTT. I don't think any of the advanced units that should be added could possibly unbalance MP either, because they are almost all 3rd level units, except for some branches of the dwarves, which would be initially added as very weak units. >3) BALANCING: >This one is the hardest points. All the unit additions and changes of >the last days, like changing the saurian, are not best for the game I >think. The drakes were playable because of this unit that easyly died >if you are not carefull enough. Witout a magic attack, they will only >be like the rest. The drakes will be weak and not really usable at >all. >I think we should have the units features like in 0.9.1. Some changes >for balancing are needed, yes. But I think multiplayermode in 0.9.1 >was not too bad. Some tweaking to resistances and defnces or costs, >yes. But NO big changes like complete new skills to some units (cf >Tribalist and Sky Drake). >For these balancing issues we should listen to the experienced >MP-Players a lot more. If we get MP really balanced, single player >will be rather balanced, too. The last balancing on singleplayer can >be done by (very little) adjustments at the design of some maps. We >got some good players, who know the best tactics, that are even willing >to help us, why not listen to them? > > I would agree unit stat changes of the type you describe should be avoided. >4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: >Are there more extra features for 1.0 needed? The game looks somehow >feature complete to me. There may be stuff that could be adjusted and >improved (modularisation) but these things could also break a lot. I >do speak in favour of letting the game like it is now, concentrate >(mainly) on fixing bugs and get it really stable so that 1.0 can be >realsed. If you know any knew features that really do need to make it >in, feel free to mail. > > A very important feature, to me at least, is the campaign server. I think improvements to it should continue to be made until it at least has decent organization. Other than that, I think mostly bugfixes should be implemented. -- Joseph Simmons Turin Turambar - Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 10:19:56 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2AO-0006Ns-3X for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:19:56 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2AK-0006LT-2A for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:19:52 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2AJ-0006Kl-5d for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:19:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2AJ-0006Kb-11 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:19:51 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.56] (helo=sccrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc28U-0004qM-Tg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:17:59 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20050528141644012000ui52e>; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:16:50 +0000 Message-ID: <42987D4A.90100@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:16:42 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hogne_H=E5skjold?= Subject: Re: adv. prefs ([Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2) References: <200505271543.11376.isaac@sindominio.net> <20050527144454.GQ23898@rot13.de> <20050527154510.GA7848@dns.net> <42979848.8000801@comcast.net> <4298323B.3010801@stud.ntnu.no> In-Reply-To: <4298323B.3010801@stud.ntnu.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:19:53 -0000 Hogne Håskjold wrote: > David White wrote: > >> The intention of the feature was to be accessible by all users, and >> to easily allow access to 'advanced' features. >> >> It has been against the Wesnoth philosophy from the beginning to try >> to hide features from users or stop them from cheating in single >> player games. >> >> David >> > > I have two concerns when it comes to the advanced tab: > > 1. The UI is just horrible, it should look like the other tabs or be > removed. I'm afraid I don't see the problem with the basic UI. It could use some improvements, but it's core feature is that it's extensible so that things can be added in WML. > > 2. I fear it will become a dumping ground for all sort of options, it > seems to be designed just for that. I believe in the firm position of > having good defaults over hundreds of options. Is this no longer the > case in Wesnoth? > This is still the case in Wesnoth. It is not designed to allow adding of more options, but it is designed to make existing options more accessible. Its purpose is to make it so that any option which was added as something that is available by editing the .cfg file is now also available in-game. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 10:30:23 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2KV-0001DR-Ee for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:30:23 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2KT-0001Cm-IH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:30:21 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2KS-0001C4-CD for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:30:20 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2KS-0001Bt-66 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:30:20 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.59] (helo=sccrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc2IO-0005MB-5f for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:28:12 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with ESMTP id <2005052814265801400dlklbe>; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:27:03 +0000 Message-ID: <42987FB0.3090307@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:26:56 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> In-Reply-To: <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:30:22 -0000 Richard Kettering wrote: > However, I'd like to have something that I'd be proud to show off in > the years down the road, rather than something people sneer at, as > they do now. > Thus I am happy to continue forging as much as I can over the coming > months - I have a lot of free time in the next few months. I'm afraid I really don't understand. How are any of the changes that have been suggested over the next few months going to change the game so much that people who currently sneer at it are instead impressed? Usually people who sneer at a game like Wesnoth do so immediately upon seeing it because they think it has poor and/or archaic graphics and perhaps sound. Polishing things off, adding a few more animations and units, and so forth isn't going to change this as far as I can see. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 10:45:39 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2ZH-0004TZ-AJ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:45:39 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2ZE-0004Sy-Nh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:45:36 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2ZD-0004Rr-0p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:45:35 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc2ZC-0004RE-FB for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:45:34 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (helo=sccrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc2Vf-00060l-87 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:41:55 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005052814404601100mhiiqe>; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:40:46 +0000 Message-ID: <429882EC.9060206@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 09:40:44 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Kneuper Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:45:37 -0000 Nils Kneuper wrote: >6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: >I do really think we do need someone that leads the game to 1.0 it has >to be done with a rather hard hand. The person doing it should be >familiar with the complete game and the code. So I am not able to do >this (puhhhh). I would really like it if Dave could continue until 1.0 >is out and hand it over afterwards? >I think we could really complete Wesnoth to be in the state of >releasing 1.0 very soon. It should be possible to do this in the term >of this year. Sometime between autumn and christmas it could be done, >so please Dave, stay this long and lead us. > > I might be interested in this if this is what all the developers want to do, but I will have to think about it. However if this were to happen I think I would have to be rather 'tough' about cutting off new features and so forth. It is likely many people would strongly dislike the approach I would take. :) David From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 13:47:27 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc5PC-0002Z3-1r for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:47:26 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc5P6-0002Vz-9L for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:47:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc5P4-0002Uj-7B for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:47:18 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc5P4-0002UZ-3l for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:47:18 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc5ND-00076P-4e for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:45:23 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.194] (unverified [209.131.231.194]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 12:44:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <42987FB0.3090307@comcast.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> <42987FB0.3090307@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:44:06 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:47:23 -0000 On May 28, 2005, at 9:26 AM, David White wrote: > Richard Kettering wrote: > >> However, I'd like to have something that I'd be proud to show off in >> the years down the road, rather than something people sneer at, as >> they do now. >> Thus I am happy to continue forging as much as I can over the coming >> months - I have a lot of free time in the next few months. > > I'm afraid I really don't understand. > > How are any of the changes that have been suggested over the next few > months going to change the game so much that people who currently > sneer at it are instead impressed? Walking animations and a scriptable sprite engine would do it. Guess who wants to do the work on those: me. > Usually people who sneer at a game like Wesnoth do so immediately upon > seeing it because they think it has poor and/or archaic graphics and > perhaps sound. Polishing things off, adding a few more animations and > units, and so forth isn't going to change this as far as I can see. You're right - polishing it off won't do much. I'm talking about the addition of some major, groundbreaking features, features I wish we had had in the game long ago. I know precisely what it is that makes us inferior to most other sprite-based games, and it is how incredibly static our game looks. This can be dealt with in a number of ways. You're also dead right that our sound is horrible - another department I wouldn't mind taking a swing at, as this would not be the only FLOSS game that would benefit from such efforts. > > David > From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 15:11:37 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6ie-0000sn-Pv for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:11:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6iX-0000qp-MU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:11:29 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6iR-0000nW-Fs for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:11:24 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6iR-0000la-5O for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:11:23 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.89] (helo=rwcrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc6cf-00035n-OV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:05:26 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20050528190413014001iv9te>; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:04:11 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Kneuper Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:11:30 -0000 Okay, these are my thoughts on how to get to 1.0. If developers broadly agree with following my plan, I *may* decide to lead it. Firstly, what should version 1.0 be? 1.0 should be the first version which we can happily show to everyone: even end users who have no interest in game development. It should be a stable version that the team is committed to maintaining and supporting. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough so that someone can play it, and have fun, without noticing badly incomplete features or awful bugs. It certainly doesn't have to have every feature imaginable, and it's not realistic that it will be completely bug-free. Now there is a danger, and I think this danger is large, that Wesnoth will never reach 1.0. The reason for this is that as a community and development team we have shown ourselves to continue to want to add features. The more features we add, the more features we think of to add. The game has been in a state where it needs "only feature x, y, and z and then it's feature-complete for 1.0" since perhaps version 0.3. I remember when it was "feature complete; all it needs is multiplayer". Now that's not to say the features we've added have no value: on the contrary the game has improved immensely since 0.3, imo. However, the more features we add, the harder it is going to be to stabilize. I think that currently the single player version of the game is easily feature-complete enough for 1.0. The main things which could be improved are more animations/graphical effects as Jetryl supports, and campaign server improvements, as turin suggests. However I don't think either of these things are necessary for 1.0. They could be added after 1.0 though. More animations creates more work for artists to do in animating things. Considering the lackluster response since I implemented animated deaths, I am not optimistic that we could complete extra sets of animation in a short period of time. With respect to the campaign server, firstly it has been improved lately in that you can sort campaigns through the new menu system. Secondly, I'd like to point out that the campaign server is a luxury. It's a feature that few people were even particularly interested in when I suggested it. Now that it's implemented, I think it'd be 'nice' to have improvements, but hardly 'absolutely necessary'. I don't see any point in delaying 1.0 until people find time to improve it. The one thing that I do think has to be done is to fix the problem where downloading campaigns can cause the entire game to fail to load. We may use a very KISS solution to this though. (Such as if the game fails to load the first time, try loading again, refusing to load from the user data area). In terms of multiplayer, I still think Wesnoth is not nearly as good as it is in multiplayer. The interface is a little mediocre, and options which I think are important such as time limits on turns aren't available. However, Wesnoth could be considered a complete game with only single player. Multiplayer is also a luxury in many ways, and it's not *that* bad. I think we can ship 1.0 without any multiplayer improvements. So, that's what I think should happen to the engine for 1.0: a complete feature freeze. Bug-fixes only. If people really want to add new features, then we can consider branching the engine and the people who want to add new features can work on that. In terms of content such as graphics, music, and sounds, I am more flexible. They don't have the capacity to de-stabilize the game. I think that for instance, if freim finishes his new terrain in time, we can include that. New music and sounds would also be highly desirable. Completing all animations is something we would definitely want. Now, in terms of adding new units, these are my thoughts: - no new factions in multiplayer. - adding level 3 units to existing factions, such as the Drakes is fine, since I don't think it changes the balance that much. - tweaking units is fine, mainly if the multiplayer community thinks it's necessary - no new level 1 units that are put in multiplayer - new level 1 units, e.g. the high elves, could be added but they would only be used if a campaign developer wanted to use them. They wouldn't be in multiplayer in 1.0. My method of balancing units is usually not to have an 'open forum, all in' approach. I think this is counter-productive. I prefer to ask the opinion of a few people who I perceive to be knowledgable in the area, and then make a decision based on that. I would REALLY love it if there was a developer who people trusted to make balancing decisions. In the example of changing Kalenz's attack to cold, this had been discussed quite a few times, and I said I was in favor of it. I still think it's a good idea, and I don't think the affect on HttT will be that bad. Some things which I think we really need for 1.0, which can be done 'safely' in that they will not de-stabilize the game: - better documentation in the help system - better sound effects - Heir to the Throne should be made much easier on 'easy'. - complete animations - completed translations I think that Wesnoth 1.0 could be produced in 3 months. Here is the schedule I would propose: Weeks 1-6: - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup and making the game acceptably fast in all areas - continue to work on translations - work on documentation - add animations, new units, sound effects, etc. - finalize list of campaigns for 1.0 -- STRING FREEZE -- Weeks 7-9: - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup - start working on finalizing translations - no more new units - animations, sound effects, can still be added -- COMPLETE INTERFACE FREEZE -- Weeks 10-12: - work on testing and fixing any remaining critical bugs - finalize translations - animations, sound effects may still be added. -- RELEASE 1.0 -- Of course, this is a rough outline of what I think is possible, not a 'strict schedule'. Remember that 1.0 can be seen in some ways as a starting point, not an ending point. After 1.0 is released we can more confidently add dramatic new features. David Nils Kneuper wrote: >Hi everyone! >In my last mail I wrote some stuff that seems rather important to me, >so I do not want to have it lost in a "dead-thread". Some of the >points also justify a thread for their own. This one will be quite >long, so sorry for this. >I Think we should really head for 1.0. The game looks very complete to >me, though there are some points I want to menition in this mail, that >could need some work: > >1) CAMPAIGNS: >Some of the campaigns do not fit into mainline at the moment. >Either we should work on them, or we should kick them out. I am >speaking of SotBE and TdH. These are incomplete and do not really fit >to the rest. >We should also consider getting them completely out of the game and >maybe getting one or two good and complete user campaigns into it >instead. >Also it would be nice if at least one campaign was designed for >beginners that do not have much experience in playing TBS games. They >maybe only played the tutorial and find httt very hard afterwards. At >least one campaign should be winnable by an unexpierienced user even >on medium. > >2) UNITS: >Is it really needed to get in more units? The units in 0.9.1 were >looking quite complete. Should we really add more units to the game? >There are already very many units. This makes it hard for beginners >and even harder to balance. >We should leave the units (and their attacks) like they were. We >should only change it, when balancing (next point) needs it. >I really like the idea of having more drakes personally, but I do not >think it is good for the game. This will make our progress into the >direction of 1.0 by far harder. I do think they should stay like they >are now. >I also do strongly speak against adding the high elves. This will >destroy several stuff again. Changing Kalenz to have a "cold" attack, >makes httt somehow imba, because you have to fight undead in some >missions in which Kalenz already joind you. And cold is really not >good against undead. Maybe httt has completele be revised now. Because >of this I speak for reverting the changes to Kalenz. >The high-elves may be added as "unofficial-unit-pack". I do not think >we do really need them for mainline, though they are a nice idea after >all. But not for mainline ATM. > >3) BALANCING: >This one is the hardest points. All the unit additions and changes of >the last days, like changing the saurian, are not best for the game I >think. The drakes were playable because of this unit that easyly died >if you are not carefull enough. Witout a magic attack, they will only >be like the rest. The drakes will be weak and not really usable at >all. >I think we should have the units features like in 0.9.1. Some changes >for balancing are needed, yes. But I think multiplayermode in 0.9.1 >was not too bad. Some tweaking to resistances and defnces or costs, >yes. But NO big changes like complete new skills to some units (cf >Tribalist and Sky Drake). >For these balancing issues we should listen to the experienced >MP-Players a lot more. If we get MP really balanced, single player >will be rather balanced, too. The last balancing on singleplayer can >be done by (very little) adjustments at the design of some maps. We >got some good players, who know the best tactics, that are even willing >to help us, why not listen to them? > >4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: >Are there more extra features for 1.0 needed? The game looks somehow >feature complete to me. There may be stuff that could be adjusted and >improved (modularisation) but these things could also break a lot. I >do speak in favour of letting the game like it is now, concentrate >(mainly) on fixing bugs and get it really stable so that 1.0 can be >realsed. If you know any knew features that really do need to make it >in, feel free to mail. > >5) TRANSLATIONS: >That one is the point that concerns me most personally. We do have to >make a decission when we should add a translation to 1.0. Should there >only be complete translations, or also the ones just started? I would >like it, if we included the complete ones, and make it optional to >install others when they are completed. It could work with a check for >the existance of the dir of the corresponding language. >I do not think it would be good to have a translation in the game >where only 10% are translated. What do you think of this? > >6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: >I do really think we do need someone that leads the game to 1.0 it has >to be done with a rather hard hand. The person doing it should be >familiar with the complete game and the code. So I am not able to do >this (puhhhh). I would really like it if Dave could continue until 1.0 >is out and hand it over afterwards? >I think we could really complete Wesnoth to be in the state of >releasing 1.0 very soon. It should be possible to do this in the term >of this year. Sometime between autumn and christmas it could be done, >so please Dave, stay this long and lead us. > >So these are the main points I wanted to write about. As I already >said, it was quite much, but I think it had to be written. Please >comment on this and help to release 1.0 soon. >Cheers, >Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic > > > >_______________________________________________ >Wesnoth-dev mailing list >Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 15:30:48 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc71E-0006gL-9h for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:30:48 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc71A-0006ee-2p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:30:44 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc715-0006bz-Jc for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:30:41 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc714-0006b7-TN for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:30:39 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.40] (helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc6y4-0004HI-Sl for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 15:27:33 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6ws-0002Pv-7c for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:26:18 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc6wG-0002Ok-6a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:40 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <1896e0fb3e509806f56e152195555de3@ll.net> References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> <1896e0fb3e509806f56e152195555de3@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Richard S. Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:25:39 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1Dc6wG-0002Ok-6a X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: G445NN3k6Ag X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:30:46 -0000 > >> Firstly I'd say it would be prudent that if any change is committed=20= >> it should be discussed beforehand... not presented as fait accompli.=20= >> These need to be discussed and argued over even before they are=20 >> tested. This is especially true of changes that are as major as what=20= >> you are suggesting. Also it would be nice if they were all revealed=20= >> at once, rather than piecemeal. I'm not against a completely new=20 >> balancing per say, however its fairly difficult to discern the=20 >> effects of such a major change in a faction if its revealed one by=20 >> one. > > We did, and it is in the mailing list archives and the developer=20 > discussions forum. Try reading. First off, please cut the condescending attitude please, this is a=20 developer's mailing list which calls for civility, and my email did not=20= make any rude comments or questioned your intelligence or ability to=20 read. You may have mentioned it somewhere, but this has come as a complete=20 shock to many people in the community. I do read, as do most of the=20 people I talk to (including several devs) and they were unaware that=20 these changes were in the works until your email. For the massive=20 effects that they have on the game, they should not be made by you and=20= should have a wide discussion across the board even before they are=20 implemented. That most certainly did not happen in this case. > >> Also as I think that at this point there should be a less emphasis on=20= >> "rebuilding the entire race" when really the drakes are fairly good=20= >> as is, and don't need massive change. This is especially true given=20= >> that people want to see a v 1.0 being put out in the near future, we=20= >> shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water by making new major=20= >> changes. Instead the focus should be on little changes that would=20 >> enhance the already good base we have right now. > > Our base right now is terrible, and needs major changes. Areas that=20= > are basically fine are [wood elves, loyalists]. Areas that are ok but=20= > need minor changes are [orcs, undead, mermen]. Areas that are=20 > terrible and messily half-finished are [dwarves, drakes, saurians,=20 > naga]. Is that the artistic side?Or unit/balance wise? Honestly I think=20 balance-wise with the exception of about a dozen or so issues (several=20= of which I discussed in the other email), the fundamental basis of=20 units is good, and should not be touched. The factions are generally=20 balanced overall and changing them at this point is far more trouble=20 than it would ever be worth. > >> So? Just because it was intended to be something and it fit another=20= >> role even better doesn't mean it should be changed, unless it was=20 >> unbalancing. Right now it occupies a unique role within the faction, > > And design goes out the window... No it doesn't. Which do you think people are going to notice more; The=20= esthetics of your change or its tactical effects? Few will really=20 notice a small conceptual change between drain and magic much less=20 judge the game poorly over it, however they will quickly notice=20 factional unbalances which are glaringly apparent, which this change=20 will most certainly achieve. > >>> b] It removes the clich=E9 "mage" unit from the saurians. =20 >>> +faction_differentiation >> >> Cliche? Its game based in a Fantasy setting. I'd expect some magic=20 >> being around. Moreover you use the argument that > > Clich=E9, as in maybe the magic user doesn't have to throw around = balls=20 > of damage, eh? There are many other ways of representing magic other=20= > than making them shoot fireballs and iceballs like they have some gun=20= > that shoots magic instead of bullets. > Isn't one of the key ideas of wesnoth that magic is represented in as=20 simple fashion as possible? I quote from the wesnoth philosophy page:=20 http://wesnoth.slack.it/?WesnothPhilosophy " So, from the beginning I decided that all spells would be implicit,=20= or simply a type of attack." When I look at a tribalist and imagine him in my mind using magic, I=20 think of it as a different type of attack than other magic users. I=20 think of it as some primeval sort of voodoo attack rather than the=20 trained learned spell of a mage. Him being animated with a different=20 type of magic attack further reinforces that. Sure making it drain=20 instead of magical would make a bit of difference, but I really don't=20 think its that needed in the first case, and is certainly outweighed by=20= the major negative balance problems it will create. >>> A side benefit of this is that the sky drake, which is currently of=20= >>> questionable use when compared with saurian skirmishers, will become=20= >>> a much more generally useful unit. Drake players will have a choice=20= >>> of attacking with a unit that can help to ensure a hit, or a unit=20 >>> that can do a lot of damage. Additionally, by having marksman, the=20= >>> drake flyer will still be vulnerable to retaliation during the=20 >>> opponents turn - marksman activates only on the offense, not during=20= >>> retaliation. >>> >> >> Secondly what is the rational of having marksmanship? Conceptually it=20= >> doesn't make sense, and even less so on a gameplay basis. > > Read the description. And I thought you said conceptual stuff didn't=20= > matter, anyways... No, conceptual stuff does matter, and I've argued this consistently=20 through all my points. I said as much in this thread:=20 http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D5621&start=3D30 when=20 discussing distinctiveness between factions. However a balance must be=20= found between gameplay and esthetics, and gameplay should take=20 precedence over it to some degree. I still do not think they are=20 mutually exclusive categories, and that esthetics can be maintained=20 while having stellar gameplay. > >> If you think this will make up for removing magical from the=20 >> tribalist's attack, it won't. firstly, against elvish archers in a=20 >> forest or a thunderer on a mountain the glider with 20% less defence=20= >> against pierce and poorer defence will not be effective at all. > > That's 10%, but whatever... > Maybe, like it's brethren the sky drake and hurricane drake, it should=20= > get the fly movetype as well. No it is 20% difference. Tribalists get a 10% bonus vs pierce and the=20 drake gets a -10% which equals a 20% difference between the two units=20 of comparison. Furthermore as I said before, the glider was a good unit=20= before all these changes, and was fairly balanced given its costs, its=20= abilities, and when compared to its contemporaries. Any addition to its=20= capabilities (and now you're advocating two, a change in movetype and=20 marksmanship) will necessitate an increase of cost, which is exactly=20 what the Drake faction does not need given that people are already=20 complaining about all its units being too high in cost. > >> This brings me to a third point. At this point the drakes already are=20= >> a expensive race, and individuals have been griping about this. your=20= >> changes will likely result in the flyer being upped in price... which=20= >> is exactly not what is needed for an already expensive race. >> >> I think that with the exception of some of the obvious problems I've=20= >> already pointed out that these changes should not be applied. It=20 >> makes little sense to make such major changes, ones which will have a=20= >> detrimental effect on the already problematic balance in wesnoth. > > First you want me to make changes in complete blocks, then you want me=20= > to do little "bite-sized" pieces one at a time. Actually, throughout this email and my posts I have consistently said=20 that I'd rather not see massive changes done at all. However I am of an=20= open mind to consider them, and if they must be done I'd rather see=20 them proposed all at once rather than discuss them piecemeal, so that=20 their effects can be seen. Furthermore I'd like to have the opportunity=20= to have a discussion on these major changes, which in reality was what=20= my first point was all about. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 16:16:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc7j2-0004eS-Kb for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:16:04 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc7ig-0004YC-2p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:15:42 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc7iU-0004TA-VG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:15:32 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dc7iU-0004OT-3e for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:15:30 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dc7Yq-0005yG-NS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:05:33 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 28 May 2005 20:04:19 -0000 Received: from p83.129.50.206.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO [192.168.0.37]) [83.129.50.206] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 28 May 2005 22:04:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Message-ID: <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:04:19 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:15:44 -0000 Here are my opinions about your mail: > Okay, these are my thoughts on how to get to 1.0. If developers > broadly agree with following my plan, I *may* decide to lead it. > > Firstly, what should version 1.0 be? 1.0 should be the first version > which we can happily show to everyone: even end users who have no > interest in game development. It should be a stable version that the > team is committed to maintaining and supporting. > It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough so that > someone can play it, and have fun, without noticing badly incomplete > features or awful bugs. It certainly doesn't have to have every > feature imaginable, and it's not realistic that it will be completely > bug-free. I think so, too. We are fairly close to such a state already. > > > So, that's what I think should happen to the engine for 1.0: a > complete feature freeze. Bug-fixes only. If people really want to add > new features, then we can consider branching the engine and the people > who want to add new features can work on that. > > In terms of content such as graphics, music, and sounds, I am more > flexible. They don't have the capacity to de-stabilize the game. I > think that for instance, if freim finishes his new terrain in time, we > can include that. New music and sounds would also be highly desirable. > Completing all animations is something we would definitely want. I think we should diretly start with such a freeze. > Some things which I think we really need for 1.0, which can be done > 'safely' in that they will not de-stabilize the game: > > - better documentation in the help system > - better sound effects > - Heir to the Throne should be made much easier on 'easy'. > - complete animations > - completed translations Some stuff of this will really be hard. Completing translations depends very much on the translators. Sound effects will be hard to do, if we do not find someone good in producing sounds. But they would really improve the quality a lot. HttT should be really a bit easier. Better documentation should be possible, too. > I think that Wesnoth 1.0 could be produced in 3 months. Here is the > schedule I would propose: > > Weeks 1-6: > > - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup and making the game > acceptably fast in all areas > - continue to work on translations > - work on documentation > - add animations, new units, sound effects, etc. > - finalize list of campaigns for 1.0 > > -- STRING FREEZE -- > > Weeks 7-9: > > - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup > - start working on finalizing translations > - no more new units > - animations, sound effects, can still be added > > -- COMPLETE INTERFACE FREEZE -- > > Weeks 10-12: > > - work on testing and fixing any remaining critical bugs > - finalize translations > - animations, sound effects may still be added. > > -- RELEASE 1.0 -- > > Of course, this is a rough outline of what I think is possible, not a > 'strict schedule'. The timetable is really hard, but it looks possible to me. As I said above, translations depend much on the translators. The rest really looks fine. > Remember that 1.0 can be seen in some ways as a starting point, not an > ending point. After 1.0 is released we can more confidently add > dramatic new features. I see it in the same way. With this release we could maybe even get new people to play and help developing wesnoth. I think there still are two questions left: 1) Which campaigns should be the ones in 1.0? 2) What to do with incomplete stuff (e.g.: translations that are only half done) I am really looking forward to have a 1.0 and not staying in the "beta-situation" forever. Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 19:48:37 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcB2h-0001IA-QJ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:48:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcB2e-0001GC-0t for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:48:32 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcB2V-0001Bi-5s for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:48:24 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcB2V-0001Bf-2A for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:48:23 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.40] (helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcAzn-0007k3-0B for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:45:35 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcAya-00016C-7E for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:44:20 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcAxc-00014j-7U for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:43:20 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <9a0d88a1355543afe1ef070bc6787cb0@aber.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard S. Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] balancing proposal Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:43:19 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1DcAxc-00014j-7U X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: G445NN3k6Ag X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:48:33 -0000 In response to Dave's email asking for a person to lead the balancing discussion, Bartek Waresiak (Dragonking) and I have discussed among ourselves and we would like to be granted opportunity to undertake this role. We are both avid multiplayer members; Between the two of us we have over 2000 games of experience of either playing or watching matches, and have been active within the greater wesnoth community on balancing issues. Although Dave did ask for a single person to do this, Bartek and I would like to work together on this because we complement each other's abilities well, and that together we can put forward a balanced unit list for the launch of the v 1.0. This is primarily how we would like go to about it. We will conduct extensive playtesting and canvas as many opinions as we can. In particular we want a very good dialogue with all parties involved. We in multiplayer didn't like when changes were presented to us without any sort of discussion, so we will not do the same to other parties. In particular we think a good dialogue with the single player community is necessary to put out the best version of wesnoth holistically. Although the basis of the balancing will be multiplayer, we believe that if we can explain the logic behind these changes, campaign designers will know what they are working with and can design their campaign around the new balance. We will try to aid in this process as well. However the same time we do believe that firm action is needed to push through a stable and balanced version of the units to make a balanced version of wesnoth. We think there has never really been a question about balancing, as there has always been a consensus among the core players of the multiplayer community as to the general issues that need to be dealt with. What we want to do is to finally push through these changes that have been discussed for such a long time. We have included here a provisional list of the major issues we would like to address. Saurian Skirmisher (completely overpowered for its cost) Ulfzerker (do I need to start on this?) Ranger (too powerful melee attack) guardsman (unbalanced due to steadfast) Troll (too low xp) Zombie (5 gold is too little compared to the goblin) Fencer (too high cost) Thief (12 gold unit that can do 12-3 at night and has elusive foot?) Skeleton archer (costs too much compared to its contemporaries) Gryphon (too high at 25) Deathblade (it should not be a leader option, also has other issues that need examination) Masterbowman (low hp) Pikeman (9-3 first strike compared to 8-4 for the swordsman, or Javlineer at 8-3 and 11-2 ranged) Mermen/Naga issues (this needs a lot of work) We have some ideas in mind on how to solve these problems, but we'd like to discuss and test them out extensively before we do commit anything into stone. We would also like to use the development forum as a place where we will list the major changes that we intend, so that they are clearly stated. If serious opposition is to be had, we will discuss it and take it into consideration.We will also try to maintain a constant flow of information to the developers via the email list. By adhering to this method we believe we can put out a balanced version of wesnoth in the time allotted. We hope that you will look on our proposal favorably. Richard and Bartek. From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 28 20:28:01 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBeq-0004og-SM for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:28:00 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBep-0004ob-WF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:28:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBep-0004oP-Dc for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:27:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBep-0004oM-9m for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:27:59 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcBdL-0001IT-Jx for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:26:27 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 May 2005 00:18:28 -0000 Received: from p83.129.50.206.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.50.206] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 29 May 2005 02:18:28 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:19:23 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <47132202109.20050529021923@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev-bounces+crazy-ivanovic=gmx.net@nongnu.org, Richard S . Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] balancing proposal In-Reply-To: <9a0d88a1355543afe1ef070bc6787cb0@aber.ac.uk> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> <9a0d88a1355543afe1ef070bc6787cb0@aber.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:28:00 -0000 I think it really is a good idea that someone used to the mp-mode is willing to take over this hard task. I think improving the balancing in MP-mode is very improtant. So I think it will be very good if someone (why not two persons) takes over this task. The changes you proposed in your mail do not look bad to me. Though you should also concern balancing not only via the units costs, but also via their resistances, movement points and defence values. But I am sure you will be able to find a good way for improving this stuff. I think it is really great to have such experienced mp-players doing this job. I also like the idea of at least involving all the guys concerned to the changes. This way everyone should be able to adjust the stuff in the correct way. But please do not keep it in a state of arguing. This will not help it. You should really be able to stand up and say "This is the thing to do, to get it more balanced!" Some discussions are fine, especially for gathering ideas, but you do need to find a solution. Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 06:51:13 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcLNv-0001Gy-SR for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:12 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcLNr-0001Ex-03 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:08 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcLNn-0001D7-9f for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:03 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcLNm-0001CD-Vr for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:03 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcLJr-0007y0-Mq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:46:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TAjb231971; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:45:37 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:46:37 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529104637.GA13905@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <429882EC.9060206@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <429882EC.9060206@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:09 -0000 On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 09:40:44AM -0500, David White wrote: > Nils Kneuper wrote: > >6) LEADING THE GAME TO 1.0: > >I do really think we do need someone that leads the game to 1.0 it has > >to be done with a rather hard hand. > >I would really like it if Dave could continue until 1.0 > >is out and hand it over afterwards? > > However if this were to happen I think I would have to be rather 'tough' > about cutting off new features and so forth. It is likely many people > would strongly dislike the approach I would take. :) I agree with Ivanovic, and fully support Dave's proposed "tough cuttings" approach. How about an even more radical approach? Let's release 0.9.2 in about a week, and set a feature freeze, aiming for 0.9.3 as an interim bugfix and balancing release the following week, with 1.0rc1 the week thereafter, and 1.0 on Monday 4 July -- with preannounced string freeze and release dates for all of these. Then people can work on cool stuff for post-1.0 during the northern hemisphere summer. This could only be achieved by having Dave leading the project, but it would also mean we have a nice 1.0 game out there, and Dave could then bow out of being project lead in the short term. I support Dave making some tough decisions to make this happen. This may mean that some of my own pet projects are lopped off, like the Afrikaans translation (it's unlikely to progress much in the near term), TDH (Circon has vanished, and I don't have time to finish and playtest the two scenarios I have been toying with to wrap up the campaign), or a nice solid Mac port that is integrated into the mainline (Sithrandel's build will have to do, since the commandline build now works fine). For a short term 1.0 release, I'll commit to bringing SotBE into a properly playable state, and will continue to help to fix bugs, help Ivanovic with translation updates, commit EP's level 2 and 3 revised costs (if agreed), finish the en_GB translation and backport its text fixes into mainline, help the Hungarian translation reach 100%, and do proofreading of all translatable strings. We also need decisions about all outstanding bugs and feature requests -- I could re-review these and make recommendations, for final review by silene and the mailing list. The reason I got involved here is that this project was clearly heading for 1.0. If we are going for a longer timeframe for 1.0, like late this year, then I'm probably not going to be able to commit to being around very much longer -- I have better things to do than spend time on a project that asymptotically approaches but never reaches 1.0. Finally, I don't understand Jetryl's comments that people are contemptuous about BfW -- the feedback I have seen has been unequivocally positive, with the occasional comment that turn based strategy isn't something a particular person enjoys. The work that has been done, in all spheres, is way above where a 1.0 release should be in my opinion: it may lack complete stylistic coherence, some stuff is missing, and there are little glitches here and there, but take a look at a commercial game and try to tell me those issues don't exist there. We already have something good, we have confirmation from the people playing the game that this is so, and we need to show it to the rest of the world instead of agonising about little glitches. Your friendly Wesnoth janitor, -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 07:46:03 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMEA-0002B2-4x for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:45:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcME1-00025O-0v for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:45:01 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMDp-0001xX-Qh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:44:54 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMDn-0001tr-FW for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:44:48 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcMBk-0001gd-FY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:42:40 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TBfIo32132; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:41:18 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:42:15 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] response to Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529114215.GA14224@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <20050528020614.21677.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050528020614.21677.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:45:03 -0000 On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 07:06:14PM -0700, Asa Swain wrote: > Campaigns: I agree that unless it gets completed > somehow, in it's current form "The Dark Hordes" is the > weakest campaign currently included. It's a shame > because it's one of the only campaigns I know of that > feature the Undead. But in it's unfinished form, I > don't think it's appropriate for 1.0. Assuming that > all campaigns in 1.0 should be completed. Agreed. > I'm not sure about Son of the Black Eye. Like the dark > hordes, it's one of the only campaigns featuring the > orcs/northeners, so I think it is useful becuase it > allows players to play as the orcs. I haven't played > it in a long time, so i don't know if certain > scenarios are broken, but I don't mind it being just > chapter 1 of an unfinished longer storyline. I've been keeping this up to date and fixing bugs. It does still need more balancing, but at least I renamed the difficulty names so the easiest level no longer masquerades as "easy". > As for the perfect tutorial campaign, the obvious > choice is "The South guard", it's a complete easy > difficulty campaign with an engaging storyline. Agreed -- this would be nice to include. Personally, I would rather see less content in the game distrubution than more, and more pointers in the game to specific campaigns and content packs available via the campaign server. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 08:16:00 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMhz-0006EF-8M for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:59 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMhu-0006Cm-Lx for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:55 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMhr-0006CH-Md for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:52 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMhV-0005mH-Vo for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:30 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcMXT-0002hD-OP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:05:08 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 May 2005 11:57:04 -0000 Received: from p83.129.50.206.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.50.206] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 29 May 2005 13:57:04 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:58:00 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <161174119468.20050529135800@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev-bounces+crazy-ivanovic=gmx.net@nongnu.org, ott Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] response to Aiming for 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20050529114215.GA14224@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <20050528020614.21677.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> <20050529114215.GA14224@dns.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:15:57 -0000 > As for the perfect tutorial campaign, the obvious > choice is "The South guard", it's a complete easy > difficulty campaign with an engaging storyline. I think "South Guard" really would be nice to have in mainline, but I see one prob with it: There are NO translations for it, yet. And if we really go for a very fast realease there won't be more than lets say three of four translations for it. And translators can not even already work on it, because it is not a part of wescamp. I think it has quite a lot strings to translate, so the translation would at least take about a month, plus time for excessive proovereading. Do we really have the time? I don't think so. I'd say we should have the campaigns in a "final" state in lets say two weeks. Than translators do have a fix base to work with and maybe we have about 10 complete translations in 1.0. It does not look too good with having more than 10 complete, because the work on many translation only goes very slow :(. Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 08:25:21 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMr2-0002lE-L0 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:25:21 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMqt-0002hH-V5 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:25:12 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMqr-0002fX-01 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:25:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcMqn-0002XK-FT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:25:05 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcMhq-0003QS-Fj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:15:50 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 May 2005 12:14:28 -0000 Received: from p83.129.50.206.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.50.206] by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 29 May 2005 14:14:28 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:15:25 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] MP eras for 1.0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:25:14 -0000 I just found another problem in the MP-mode. I think it will be very hard (not to say impossible) to ballance all the eras. I think all the balancing has recently been concentrated on the default era. I think this is a good thing. But the other eras are really not ballanced. I also think it is not really possible to make all the eras balanced with the normal unit stats. I think we should only ship the default era with 1.0 and make the other ones "extra content" on the campaign server. Maybe we could include a fairly balanced Age of Heroes, but some time has to be taken for this. That is the only one that can *maybe* be balanced only with correct amounts of gold, though it will be much work. How do you think about this? Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 09:29:06 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcNqk-0008Mu-0M for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:29:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcNoT-0007ic-KZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:26:46 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcNoK-0007bE-Gk for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:26:37 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcNoB-0007Z6-Lx for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:26:28 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcNYH-0006lC-SV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 09:10:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TD8dl32375; Sun, 29 May 2005 13:08:39 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:09:40 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529130940.GA14493@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4cd1f1c18502eecf7f14b633db1366b9@ll.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:29:04 -0000 On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 02:58:15AM -0500, Richard Kettering wrote: > The game looks like a half-finished mess to me, and one which needs at > least six months before we could think of calling it 1.0. You are in a minority of one here. Such comments are not useful. Your work has been very important and I hope to see it continue, but snide comments are destructive and serve no purpose other than driving the less thick-skinned contributors away. In the opinion of many, the game is acceptable for 1.0 with its current state of graphics, but without solid code, release packaging, ports to various platforms, balanced gameplay, and general usability it all amounts to a hill of beans, since no-one is going to play it. Please keep your own role here in perspective -- we are not making an artifact to be exhibited at MOMA, but a game to be played and enjoyed by thousands of people. It would be very gratifying to me personally if we could create an artifact that was admired widely for generations. However, many see the current state of the game as a good point to stop for a stable release, and I would be sad if we miss this opportunity. Then we can aim much higher for a subsequent 2.0. > Our biggest balancing concerns come from - surprise surprise - the > factions that are unfinished. The balancing issues have been expressed well by those who play the game seriously. The balancing issues that need to be addressed in the short term are niggles relating to individual units. Every time a "little" change is made to a key unit, it costs _hundreds_ of playtesting hours to ascertain the effect of that change. This is why I think we should value the opinion of those who have developed a reliable feel for the subtle imperfections in unit balance -- just like we non-artists defer to the judgement of those who have a refined aesthetic sense. You seem to be one of the few people prepared to make significant balancing changes without having the benefit of lots of time to test those changes first, or for even trying to convince us that the changes will be good for gameplay. I suggest you reconsider. > Balancing is a major concern, but trying to balance something that is > unfinished is asking for a failure, which is what our current dwarves > and drakes are. > They are a royal mess. They seem mostly fine for MP according to the people who play MP a lot, and the Drake Campaign hasn't obviously suffered either for lack of high level units. I think these factions are good enough for 1.0, with some slight tweaks. Before 2.0 they clearly need some revisions, since they don't have the depth of the Loyalists or Elves. > >4) MORE EXTRA FEATURES: > A real, scriptable, sprite engine might be nice, and I'd like to try my > hand at coding one this summer. Great, I'd like to see something like this post 1.0. > Thus I am happy to continue forging as much as I can over the coming > months - I have a lot of free time in the next few months. I look forward to a quick 1.0, and to seeing your contributions on advancing the game to 2.0. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:20:28 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOeS-0004re-5S for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:20:28 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBnz-0007oC-9d for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:37:28 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBnq-0007jF-Um for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:37:20 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcBnq-0007in-J4 for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:37:18 -0400 Received: from [212.191.73.84] (helo=sul.uni.lodz.pl) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DcBlf-0001YR-6O for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:35:03 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [212.191.172.9]) by sul.uni.lodz.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA5C17018; Sun, 29 May 2005 02:31:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42990DE3.5090108@sul.uni.lodz.pl> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:33:39 +0200 From: Karol 'grzywacz' Nowak User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050331) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: davidnwhite@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:20:21 -0400 Cc: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:37:29 -0000 David White wrote: > Firstly, what should version 1.0 be? 1.0 should be the first version > which we can happily show to everyone: even end users who have no > interest in game development. It should be a stable version that the > team is committed to maintaining and supporting. > > It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough so that > someone can play it, and have fun, without noticing badly incomplete > features or awful bugs. It certainly doesn't have to have every feature > imaginable, and it's not realistic that it will be completely bug-free. That's surely what one would expect from a version with "full" number. > Now there is a danger, and I think this danger is large, that Wesnoth > will never reach 1.0. The reason for this is that as a community and > development team we have shown ourselves to continue to want to add > features. The more features we add, the more features we think of to > add. The game has been in a state where it needs "only feature x, y, and > z and then it's feature-complete for 1.0" since perhaps version 0.3. I > remember when it was "feature complete; all it needs is multiplayer". > Now that's not to say the features we've added have no value: on the > contrary the game has improved immensely since 0.3, imo. However, the > more features we add, the harder it is going to be to stabilize. Adding features is always more fun than boring bugfixing... As far as the idea of feature freeze goes, I think that Wesnoth has reached a level of quality, which justifies a "final" release and it well deserves it. > In terms of multiplayer, I still think Wesnoth is not nearly as good as > it is in multiplayer. The interface is a little mediocre, and options > which I think are important such as time limits on turns aren't > available. However, Wesnoth could be considered a complete game with > only single player. Multiplayer is also a luxury in many ways, and it's > not *that* bad. I think we can ship 1.0 without any multiplayer > improvements. Even if multiplayer is not perfect, Wesnoth already has a lively MP community. I guess that they'd also be happy to have a stable version, with no constant unit rebalancing caused by new additions. > Now, in terms of adding new units, these are my thoughts: > > - no new factions in multiplayer. > - adding level 3 units to existing factions, such as the Drakes is fine, > since I don't think it changes the balance that much. > - tweaking units is fine, mainly if the multiplayer community thinks > it's necessary > - no new level 1 units that are put in multiplayer > - new level 1 units, e.g. the high elves, could be added but they would > only be used if a campaign developer wanted to use them. They wouldn't > be in multiplayer in 1.0. Sounds reasonably, also from a perspective of translation maintainer. > Some things which I think we really need for 1.0, which can be done > 'safely' in that they will not de-stabilize the game: > > - better documentation in the help system > - better sound effects > - Heir to the Throne should be made much easier on 'easy'. > - complete animations > - completed translations Given the rough timeline you wrote below, I think it might be even possible to finish our (Polish) translation before the final release, even if the documentation was to be expanded... All I'd like to know now is whether we're going to be presented with a deadline any time soon. :) > I think that Wesnoth 1.0 could be produced in 3 months. Here is the > schedule I would propose: > > Weeks 1-6: > > - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup and making the game > acceptably fast in all areas > - continue to work on translations > - work on documentation > - add animations, new units, sound effects, etc. > - finalize list of campaigns for 1.0 > > -- STRING FREEZE -- > > Weeks 7-9: > > - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup > - start working on finalizing translations > - no more new units > - animations, sound effects, can still be added > > -- COMPLETE INTERFACE FREEZE -- > > Weeks 10-12: > > - work on testing and fixing any remaining critical bugs > - finalize translations > - animations, sound effects may still be added. > > -- RELEASE 1.0 -- > > Of course, this is a rough outline of what I think is possible, not a > 'strict schedule'. To sum things up - go for it! :) -- pozdrawiam Karol 'grzywacz' Nowak -> Jabber: grzyw@jabber.org -> WWW: http://kolos.math.uni.lodz.pl/~grzywacz/ From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:20:28 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOeS-0004rg-AJ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:20:28 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcIEX-0007eG-Fv for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 03:29:17 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcIEW-0007de-AN for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 03:29:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcIEW-0007dU-7G for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 03:29:16 -0400 Received: from [203.10.76.45] (helo=ozlabs.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DcICy-0007zP-Sj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 03:27:41 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.69] (ppp60-148.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net [59.167.60.148]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C25679EA for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:26:16 +1000 (EST) From: Rusty Russell To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:26:02 +1000 Message-Id: <1117351562.19064.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:20:21 -0400 Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] [PATCH] Show number of enemies who can reach each hex in "Show Enemy Moves" X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:29:17 -0000 I wanted this, because I thought my unit was only reachable by the enemy in front of it, and didn't see the damn goblin rider offscreen. The code isn't especially neat (even for C++), but it's fairly simple. Cheers! Rusty. Index: src/display.cpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/display.cpp,v retrieving revision 1.321 diff -u -r1.321 display.cpp --- src/display.cpp 16 May 2005 22:44:19 -0000 1.321 +++ src/display.cpp 29 May 2005 06:38:41 -0000 @@ -76,7 +76,7 @@ screen_(video), xpos_(0), ypos_(0), zoom_(DefaultZoom), map_(map), units_(units), minimap_(NULL), redrawMinimap_(false), - pathsList_(NULL), status_(status), + pathsList_(NULL), enemy_reach_(NULL), status_(status), teams_(t), lastDraw_(0), drawSkips_(0), invalidateAll_(true), invalidateUnit_(true), invalidateGameStatus_(true), panelsDrawn_(false), @@ -1514,6 +1514,9 @@ pathsList_->routes.end()) { image_type = image::GREYED; } + if(enemy_reach_ != NULL && enemy_reach_->find(loc) == enemy_reach_->end()) { + image_type = image::GREYED; + } unit_map::iterator un = find_visible_unit(units_, loc, map_, status_.get_time_of_day().lawful_bonus,teams_,teams_[currentTeam_]); @@ -1551,6 +1554,8 @@ } } draw_footstep(loc,xpos,ypos); + if (enemy_reach_ != NULL) + draw_enemies_reach(loc,xpos,ypos); } else { //FIXME: shouldn't void.png and fog.png be in the program configuration? surface surface(image::get_image("terrain/void.png")); @@ -1618,6 +1623,40 @@ update_rect(xpos,ypos,zoom_,zoom_); } +void display::draw_enemies_reach(const gamemap::location& loc, int xloc, int yloc) +{ + const reach_map::const_iterator reach_it = enemy_reach_->find(loc); + + // not reachable, leave greyed out. + if (reach_it == enemy_reach_->end()) + return; + + // only one can reach, leave highlighted. + if (reach_it->second == 1) + return; + + // multiple can reach: print number + std::stringstream text; + text << reach_it->second; + const std::string &str = text.str(); + const SDL_Rect& rect = map_area(); + + const SDL_Rect& text_area = font::text_area(str,font::SIZE_LARGE); + const int x = xloc + zoom_/2 - text_area.w/2; + const int y = yloc + zoom_/2 - text_area.h/2; + + //draw the text with a black outline + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x-1,y-1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x-1,y); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x-1,y+1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x,y-1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x+1,y-1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x+1,y); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x+1,y+1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::DARK_COLOUR,str,x,y+1); + font::draw_text(&screen_,rect,font::SIZE_LARGE,font::YELLOW_COLOUR,str,x,y); +} + void display::draw_footstep(const gamemap::location& loc, int xloc, int yloc) { std::vector::const_iterator i = @@ -1910,6 +1949,14 @@ void display::set_paths(const paths* paths_list) { pathsList_ = paths_list; + enemy_reach_ = NULL; + invalidate_all(); +} + +void display::set_reach_map(const reach_map *reach_map) +{ + pathsList_ = NULL; + enemy_reach_ = reach_map; invalidate_all(); } Index: src/display.hpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/display.hpp,v retrieving revision 1.103 diff -u -r1.103 display.hpp --- src/display.hpp 17 Apr 2005 20:42:10 -0000 1.103 +++ src/display.hpp 29 May 2005 06:38:43 -0000 @@ -161,6 +161,11 @@ //paths_list must remain valid until it is set again void set_paths(const paths* paths_list); + //variation of set_paths which shows how many units can reach each tile. + //Setting the reach_map clears the paths_list, and vice-versa. + typedef std::map reach_map; + void set_reach_map(const reach_map *reach_map); + //sets the route along which footsteps are drawn to show movement of a //unit. If NULL, no route is displayed. //route does not have to remain valid after being set @@ -200,6 +205,7 @@ // void draw_tile_adjacent(int x, int y, image::TYPE image_type, ADJACENT_TERRAIN_TYPE type); + void draw_enemies_reach(const gamemap::location& loc, int xloc, int yloc); public: //function to draw a footstep for the given location, on screen at @@ -490,6 +496,8 @@ typedef std::map halo_map; halo_map haloes_; + const reach_map *enemy_reach_; + //for debug mode static std::map debugHighlights_; Index: src/playturn.cpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/playturn.cpp,v retrieving revision 1.372 diff -u -r1.372 playturn.cpp --- src/playturn.cpp 18 May 2005 14:06:30 -0000 1.372 +++ src/playturn.cpp 29 May 2005 06:38:46 -0000 @@ -2637,10 +2637,10 @@ return false; } -// Highlights squares that an enemy could move to on their turn +// Highlights squares that an enemy could move to on their turn, showing how many can reach each square. void turn_info::show_enemy_moves(bool ignore_units) { - all_paths_ = paths(); + reach_map_ = display::reach_map(); // Compute enemy movement positions for(unit_map::iterator u = units_.begin(); u != units_.end(); ++u) { @@ -2654,14 +2654,12 @@ u->first,teams_,is_skirmisher,teleports); for (paths::routes_map::const_iterator route = path.routes.begin(); route != path.routes.end(); ++route) { - // map<...>::operator[](const key_type& key) inserts key into - // the map with a default instance of value_type - all_paths_.routes[route->first]; + reach_map_[route->first]++; } } } - - gui_.set_paths(&all_paths_); + + gui_.set_reach_map(&reach_map_); } void turn_info::toggle_shroud_updates() { Index: src/playturn.hpp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/wesnoth/wesnoth/src/playturn.hpp,v retrieving revision 1.68 diff -u -r1.68 playturn.hpp --- src/playturn.hpp 18 May 2005 14:06:30 -0000 1.68 +++ src/playturn.hpp 29 May 2005 06:38:46 -0000 @@ -226,6 +226,7 @@ gamemap::location next_unit_; paths current_paths_, all_paths_; paths::route current_route_; + display::reach_map reach_map_; bool enemy_paths_; gamemap::location last_hex_; gamemap::location::DIRECTION last_nearest_, last_second_nearest_; -- A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver -- Richard Braakman From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:31:10 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOom-0000Zy-Cj for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:31:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOoh-0000WE-04 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:31:03 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOod-0000UJ-C8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:30:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOod-0000TA-4a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:30:59 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOkw-00022g-4F for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:27:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TEPkJ32551; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:25:46 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:26:48 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] MP eras for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529142648.GA14818@dns.net> References: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:31:04 -0000 On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 02:15:25PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > I think we should only ship the default era with 1.0 and make the > other ones "extra content" on the campaign server. Maybe we could > include a fairly balanced Age of Heroes, but some time has to be taken > for this. That is the only one that can *maybe* be balanced only with > correct amounts of gold, though it will be much work. Sounds reasonable, though EP's gold tweaks for level 2/3/4 units seem a decent way to smooth out Age of Heroes enough for a 1.0 release. See http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4785 and specifically http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79454#79454 -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:39:25 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwm-0003Bd-7f for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwh-00037c-Sh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwd-00034B-OP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwc-00030P-ES for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:14 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.64] (helo=sccrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOrH-0002Sn-PU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:33:43 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005052914322101600res58e>; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:32:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4299D272.7050609@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:32:18 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Kneuper Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] MP eras for 1.0 References: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:22 -0000 Nils Kneuper wrote: >I just found another problem in the MP-mode. I think it will be very >hard (not to say impossible) to ballance all the eras. I think all the >balancing has recently been concentrated on the default era. I think >this is a good thing. But the other eras are really not ballanced. I >also think it is not really possible to make all the eras balanced >with the normal unit stats. >I think we should only ship the default era with 1.0 and make the >other ones "extra content" on the campaign server. > I don't think it's a big deal to ship eras that aren't fully balanced, as long as the default one is. David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:39:28 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwp-0003EE-F7 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:27 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwh-00037h-P5 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwd-00034c-Si for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwd-00030P-7J for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.64] (helo=sccrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOqg-0002Rh-FH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:33:06 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005052914314301600rdohoe>; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:31:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4299D24C.3070103@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:31:40 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 1.0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:23 -0000 Since it seems that most everyone who has an opinion on the issue wants me to lead Wesnoth to 1.0, and since I would really like to see it get there, I am going to accept continuing leadership of the project with the explicit aim of trying to reach 1.0 as soon as possible. There are going to have to be some changes in the way we do things though, to achieve our goals. I understand that many contributors might not like all or agree with all the changes. If there are contributors who want to continue adding new features we can investigate creating a 'feature development branch' that can be later merged into the main branch after 1.0. Firstly: feature freeze. I think Wesnoth is feature-complete for 1.0, and we don't need any more features. If there is some feature that you really really wanted in, well, there has been the last 18 months for you to implement it or convince another developer to implement it, so apparently it's not that important; we will have to live without it until 1.0. Changes to C++ code should be made only to fix bugs. At this stage obvious usability/interface issues and unnecessary slowness will be considered bugs, but this definition will narrow as we progress. Now, I'm going to define a new term: 'Isolated Change'. An Isolated Change is any change to game data which doesn't add any new strings and which has no real chance of causing instability. Thus, adding unit animations or music or sound effects are Isolated Changes. Adding units, scenarios, or even maps are not isolated changes because they add new strings. Changing C++ code is of course definitely not an Isolated Change. For the moment any isolated change is fine to work on. Maps: Doc Paterson is working on a new set of interesting multiplayer maps for us. Unit balancing: I'm going to accept Dragonking and Noy as developers who are going to concentrate on unit balancing. Based on discussions with them I think they will be able to do a very good job on it. Importantly, they are very conservative in their outlooks, which is crucial so close to 1.0. If any of the unit balancing changes require changes to the game engine I will personally review the changes, how necessary they are, and will consider making them. There are a few more areas which it would be really very nice if people could work heavily on: - polishing up campaigns. In particular, I would love it if someone made some of the mainline campaigns much easier on 'Easy' level. This is probably the MOST crucial thing to the success of 1.0 in terms of popularity. We're probably going to have to remove campaigns that aren't complete or are low quality. TDH in particular. It'd be great if someone could make a list of proposed campaigns for 1.0. A big barrier to some otherwise good user-campaigns would be the possibility of them being translated in time for 1.0. - translations: we obviously want as many complete translations as possible. - sounds. Currently our weakest area.....if anyone would like to make some new sounds, that'd be great. In a special request from Lisa, if nothing else could someone please make the sound of the Wolf Rider getting hit not sound like someone is torturing a puppy? :) - music: some new music was posted on the forum recently; we could review it and consider where to use it. - animations: a complete set of death animations would be great. - storyline images: I'm not sure if we will get any more, but if we were to, that would also be great. - documentation: the speed of the help system has been fixed....now we just need some good documentation to put in there Bugs and release procedure: I think we should go through and close any bugs which we can't still reproduce in the bug tracking system. This will give us a fresh start for bug tracking and fixing. Then we should ask users to report as many bugs as they can find. I hope we can make a release every few weeks. As we go I'm going to announce cut-downs in the areas that we allow changes in. Now, let's remember that the next stable version after 1.0 doesn't have to be 2.0. It can be 1.2. That is, after 1.0 the team can spend 3-6 months making 'moderate' improvements, and then release 1.2. There doesn't have to be an earth-shaking re-write that happens after 1.0 to produce 2.0 which takes another 2 years. Finally, please remember that this is still actually meant to be fun. :) David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:39:29 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwr-0003FT-9v for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:29 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwj-00039q-Pz for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:21 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwe-000351-QT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcOwd-00030P-Td for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOqZ-0002RG-Ce for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:32:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TEVaA32577; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:31:36 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:32:37 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529143237.GB14818@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:23 -0000 On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 10:04:19PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > 1) Which campaigns should be the ones in 1.0? HttT, TROW definitely. SotBE if we can finish balancing it. TDH if someone is prepared to write two scenarios to wrap it up -- the next one is supposed to be underground, with a flood to escape (see the wiki walkthrough), and there needs to be at least one more scenario to bring it to a conclusion. EI -- can't judge, am not familiar enough with it, but Turin seems to be working hard to iron out remaining kinks. > 2) What to do with incomplete stuff (e.g.: translations that are only > half done) We should perhaps set a cutoff point for translations -- eg. anything below 99% overall must have 99% of the wesnoth, wesnoth-lib and wesnoth-httt domains translated to be included. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 10:51:52 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8p-0000A1-NY for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:51 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8n-00008z-4a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:49 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8g-00005V-4p for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:44 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8f-0008KU-ER for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:41 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.64] (helo=sccrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOyw-0002m3-R1 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:41:38 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005052914391101600rclb5e>; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:40:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4299D40C.7000101@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:39:08 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ott Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <429882EC.9060206@comcast.net> <20050529104637.GA13905@dns.net> In-Reply-To: <20050529104637.GA13905@dns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:51:50 -0000 ott wrote: >Finally, I don't understand Jetryl's comments that people are contemptuous >about BfW -- the feedback I have seen has been unequivocally positive, >with the occasional comment that turn based strategy isn't something a >particular person enjoys. The work that has been done, in all spheres, >is way above where a 1.0 release should be in my opinion > It's really a matter of which demographic you ask. People who have actually played other Free/Open Source games will no-doubt find Wesnoth impressive. People who play Mac-based shareware games will likely find it impressive. People who play commercial games, and have done so for a long time will often find Wesnoth impressive since it harkens back to an 'old-school' gaming style, which they appreciate. People who play commercial games and focus more on strategy and depth will often find it impressive. People who focus on great 3D graphics in games will almost certainly not like Wesnoth, and it will have little chance to interest them. Then there are people who don't necessarily like 3D graphics, but are artistic in outlook and like things to be completely animated and fluid. I think it's the last group Jetryl is referring to. However IMO the changes he suggests would only 'win over' a small percentage of people overall, compared to the effort they would take. It's something worth doing, certainly, but not worth delaying 1.0 for, especially since Jetryl would have to first become familiar with Wesnoth code etc to be able to even implement a sprite engine. But, it's definitely something which could be done for 1.2 or 2.0. There are definitely people who really don't like Wesnoth at all for various reasons. But, that can be said for any game. :) The big reasons people don't like Wesnoth are they don't like the graphics/sound, they don't like turn-based games, or they don't like the mechanics of Wesnoth (typically they think it's based too heavily on luck). David From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 11:02:24 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPJ2-0003Nv-Me for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:02:24 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8o-00009X-F7 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:50 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8j-00006W-PT for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcP8g-0008KU-1I for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:51:44 -0400 Received: from [69.17.117.25] (helo=mail23.sea5.speakeasy.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1DcOyC-0002k0-7R for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 10:40:52 -0400 Received: (qmail 15492 invoked from network); 29 May 2005 14:39:27 -0000 Received: from dsl081-113-168.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.0.3]) (lsimmons@[64.81.113.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail23.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 May 2005 14:39:27 -0000 Message-ID: <4299D504.4020205@lsimmons.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:43:16 -0500 From: Joseph Simmons User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050331) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] MP eras for 1.0 References: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> <20050529142648.GA14818@dns.net> In-Reply-To: <20050529142648.GA14818@dns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:02:23 -0400 Cc: X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:51:51 -0000 To me, EP's gold tweaks also seem like the perfect way to completely unbalance every single campaign. They are a good idea, and will eventually need to be done, but when they are we are going to have to change the amount of gold the AI has in almost all campaign scenarios. So, we should only commit those gold tweaks if we think we really have time to go through each campaign and adjust the gold accordingly. ott wrote: >On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 02:15:25PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > > >>I think we should only ship the default era with 1.0 and make the >>other ones "extra content" on the campaign server. Maybe we could >>include a fairly balanced Age of Heroes, but some time has to be taken >>for this. That is the only one that can *maybe* be balanced only with >>correct amounts of gold, though it will be much work. >> >> > >Sounds reasonable, though EP's gold tweaks for level 2/3/4 units seem >a decent way to smooth out Age of Heroes enough for a 1.0 release. See > http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4785 >and specifically > http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79454#79454 > >-- ott@gaon.net > > >_______________________________________________ >Wesnoth-dev mailing list >Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org >http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > -- Joseph Simmons Turin Turambar - Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 11:15:04 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPVH-0000Zo-SI for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:15:04 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPV9-0000Vy-Oy for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:14:57 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPV4-0000Sn-K4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:14:50 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPV4-0000Qt-CK for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:14:50 -0400 Received: from [80.32.129.223] (helo=moriah) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcPQE-0004Aj-CX for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:09:50 -0400 Received: by moriah (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 19BEABEE5E; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:08:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:08:24 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jord=E0?= Polo To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529150824.GA4602@moriah> Mail-Followup-To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4298CEC3.3030005@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:14:59 -0000 On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 10:04:19PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > 2) What to do with incomplete stuff (e.g.: translations that are only > half done) About incomplete translations I would say it depends. For example, if a certain translation doesn't have some of the official campaigns translated, but everything else is up-to-date, it should be added IMHO. On the other hand, if a translation is almost finished, but has not been updated for a long time (and thus it has many fuzzy strings), it might not be added. From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 11:23:49 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPdl-0004Hz-JI for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:23:49 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPdc-0004Dw-M1 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:23:40 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPdU-00049B-Rd for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:23:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcPdU-000462-QB for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:23:32 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcPcV-0004oL-A8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:22:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FE07F8048 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30035-08 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.129] (FW-44-249.go.retevision.es [62.174.249.44]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE477F8047 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:20:51 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1755759.GxJ7OhuqMJ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200505291720.55331.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 revisited X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:23:44 -0000 --nextPart1755759.GxJ7OhuqMJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Wesnoth 0.9.2 will be released at the end of this week, may be on Thursday= =20 night or Friday morning. The string freeze for this release will start tonight at 00:00AM, then I wi= ll=20 run update-po and upload the .pot files that will be shipped with 0.9.2, so= =20 please, don't upload new strings during the freeze. Best regards =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --nextPart1755759.GxJ7OhuqMJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBCmd3XQET2GFTmct4RAjrfAJ0SZkjTjFaT3BSJqq0dVoroJBHTuQCgoRWE Com5UV0awsuqVPh4AatywHA= =+zSq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1755759.GxJ7OhuqMJ-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 12:00:40 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcQDQ-0001xV-4Z for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:00:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcQDA-0001ob-O3 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:00:25 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcQD6-0001mv-LM for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:00:21 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcQD4-0001eA-92 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 12:00:18 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcQC3-0006d8-Ds for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 11:59:15 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 May 2005 15:57:50 -0000 Received: from p83.129.50.206.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.50.206] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 29 May 2005 17:57:50 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:58:44 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <135188563265.20050529175844@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev-bounces+crazy-ivanovic=gmx.net@nongnu.org, David White Subject: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:00:26 -0000 >Some things which I think we really need for 1.0, which can be done >'safely' in that they will not de-stabilize the game: > >- better documentation in the help system >- better sound effects >- Heir to the Throne should be made much easier on 'easy'. >- complete animations >- completed translations I think if the documentation in the Helpsys should really be improved, It has to be done at the very beginning. Otherwise translators will *NOT* be able to catch up. So we really should concentrate on this. CU Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 14:39:12 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcSgq-0002Ii-NR for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:12 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcSgo-0002IA-Hw for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:10 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcSgm-0002HE-MS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:09 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcSgm-0002Fx-CI for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:39:08 -0400 Received: from [216.32.91.63] (helo=smtp1.warp.es) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcSbk-0005qW-6e for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:33:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8EB7F804B for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 20:57:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.warp.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (moe [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06116-10 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 20:57:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.99] (unknown [62.174.146.193]) by smtp1.warp.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F9C7F8047 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 20:57:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Isaac Clerencia To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 revisited Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:32:14 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.50 References: <200505291720.55331.isaac@sindominio.net> In-Reply-To: <200505291720.55331.isaac@sindominio.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1585441.4Y2Z0X0G34"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200505292032.18835.isaac@sindominio.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at warp.es X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:39:11 -0000 --nextPart1585441.4Y2Z0X0G34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 29 de May de 2005 17:20, Isaac Clerencia wrote: > Wesnoth 0.9.2 will be released at the end of this week, may be on Thursday > night or Friday morning. > > The string freeze for this release will start tonight at 00:00AM, then I > will run update-po and upload the .pot files that will be shipped with > 0.9.2, so please, don't upload new strings during the freeze. As I won't be able to do it at 00:00 AM, I'm running now the update-po, so = the=20 string freeze is already in effect. Best regards =2D-=20 Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es Work: | Debian: --nextPart1585441.4Y2Z0X0G34 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Signed by Isaac Clerencia iD8DBQBCmgqyQET2GFTmct4RAoQLAJ46QBkKgDx0Wy98XqqDJ9BGr5HvfwCgnJZw XnEI7ZXBKunfn3GqnuweRwc= =/ib9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1585441.4Y2Z0X0G34-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 15:45:41 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcTjA-0001Bf-OJ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:45:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcTj5-00019E-Vy for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:45:36 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcTj3-00017x-1Y for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:45:33 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcTj2-00016W-EF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:45:32 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcTga-0000we-7M for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:43:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4TJfXW00628; Sun, 29 May 2005 19:41:33 GMT Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:42:37 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] MP eras for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050529194237.GA15242@dns.net> References: <100175163750.20050529141525@gmx.net> <20050529142648.GA14818@dns.net> <4299D504.4020205@lsimmons.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4299D504.4020205@lsimmons.net> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:45:38 -0000 On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 09:43:16AM -0500, Joseph Simmons wrote: > To me, EP's gold tweaks also seem like the perfect way to completely > unbalance every single campaign. They are a good idea, and will > eventually need to be done, but when they are we are going to have to > change the amount of gold the AI has in almost all campaign scenarios. > So, we should only commit those gold tweaks if we think we really have > time to go through each campaign and adjust the gold accordingly. Sounds sensible, thanks for pointing this out. I'm not convinced that we have time to rebalance each campaign for this; level 2 units are used extensively in many scenarios, especially on Hard. I withdraw the proposal. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Sun May 29 22:02:51 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcZcB-00017U-FK for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:02:51 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcZbh-0000zY-3k for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:02:21 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcZbd-0000yF-OG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:02:17 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcZbd-0000y5-JG for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:02:17 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.59] (helo=sccrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcZaa-0002SG-Td for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Sun, 29 May 2005 22:01:13 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with ESMTP id <2005053001594001400dpnhqe>; Mon, 30 May 2005 01:59:40 +0000 Message-ID: <429A7389.5060402@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:59:37 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 1.0 References: <4299D24C.3070103@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4299D24C.3070103@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:02:26 -0000 David White wrote: > If any of the unit balancing changes require changes to the game > engine I will personally review the changes, how necessary they are, > and will consider making them. Noy and Dragonking asked me if it would be possible for the 'Berserk' ability to be reverted to its status as of 0.8.11 (that is, active on defense). I reviewed the change that modified Berserk, and since it was a single small code block I have reverted Berserk to this state. Dragonking has indicated that they might want to look at changing Steadfast, but other than that there are no further changes that would require engine modification that they currently want for balancing purposes. David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 00:22:05 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcbmt-0000NU-Ec for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:22:03 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcbmq-0000M5-6S for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:22:00 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcbmk-0000JW-8I for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:21:55 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcbmj-0000HX-VU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:21:54 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcbcx-0000QP-Kg for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:11:47 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.229] (unverified [209.131.231.229]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 23:10:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: References: <26257207efd87de91beea8f7dd7ca65d@ll.net> <420fb16d2a804398be53e7050c15d4ad@aber.ac.uk> <1896e0fb3e509806f56e152195555de3@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <16bdf4279970630f49a1b1ef8575f5b5@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Additions Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:09:10 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 04:22:01 -0000 On May 28, 2005, at 2:25 PM, Richard S. wrote: >>> Firstly I'd say it would be prudent that if any change is committed=20= >>> it should be discussed beforehand... not presented as fait accompli.=20= >>> These need to be discussed and argued over even before they are=20 >>> tested. This is especially true of changes that are as major as what=20= >>> you are suggesting. Also it would be nice if they were all revealed=20= >>> at once, rather than piecemeal. I'm not against a completely new=20 >>> balancing per say, however its fairly difficult to discern the=20 >>> effects of such a major change in a faction if its revealed one by=20= >>> one. >> >> We did, and it is in the mailing list archives and the developer=20 >> discussions forum. Try reading. > > First off, please cut the condescending attitude please, this is a=20 > developer's mailing list which calls for civility, and my email did=20 > not make any rude comments or questioned your intelligence or ability=20= > to read. Then please don't accuse me of things I didn't do - that's not very=20 nice either. I'm not questioning your ability to read, I'm questioning=20= your willingness to do so. If you haven't read what I said, it's not safe to accuse me of not=20 discussing something - I might well have. For example, I discussed the change of the Elvish Lord's ranged attack=20= over seven months ago, and it was approved. I didn't have time to work=20= on it then, I was busy revising all the elvish graphics, but I tacked=20 it onto my horrible pile of things to do. > You may have mentioned it somewhere, but this has come as a complete=20= > shock to many people in the community. I do read, as do most of the=20 > people I talk to (including several devs) and they were unaware that=20= > these changes were in the works until your email. For the massive=20 > effects that they have on the game, they should not be made by you and=20= > should have a wide discussion across the board even before they are=20 > implemented. That most certainly did not happen in this case. > >> Our base right now is terrible, and needs major changes. Areas that=20= >> are basically fine are [wood elves, loyalists]. Areas that are ok=20 >> but need minor changes are [orcs, undead, mermen]. Areas that are=20 >> terrible and messily half-finished are [dwarves, drakes, saurians,=20 >> naga]. > > Is that the artistic side?Or unit/balance wise? Honestly I think=20 > balance-wise with the exception of about a dozen or so issues (several=20= > of which I discussed in the other email), the fundamental basis of=20 > units is good, and should not be touched. The factions are generally=20= > balanced overall and changing them at this point is far more trouble=20= > than it would ever be worth. Unit balance, in a HUGE way. The art is a mixed bag across the board -=20= even in the elves, some of the units need some minor touch-ups (most=20 notably - the scout, outrider, shaman, and druid). It's our unit balance that is really bad, but only in some of our=20 factions. The dwarvish faction and the drake faction are extremely=20 powerful in certain situations, and extremely weak in others. In some=20= maps, they are unbeatable, in others, they are powerless. Granted,=20 there will always be some fluctuation, but the level of problems we=20 have now has to do with core issues with the unit trees for those=20 races. >>>> b] It removes the clich=E9 "mage" unit from the saurians. =20 >>>> +faction_differentiation >>> >>> Cliche? Its game based in a Fantasy setting. I'd expect some magic=20= >>> being around. Moreover you use the argument that >> >> Clich=E9, as in maybe the magic user doesn't have to throw around = balls=20 >> of damage, eh? There are many other ways of representing magic other=20= >> than making them shoot fireballs and iceballs like they have some gun=20= >> that shoots magic instead of bullets. >> > > Isn't one of the key ideas of wesnoth that magic is represented in as=20= > simple fashion as possible? I quote from the wesnoth philosophy page:=20= > http://wesnoth.slack.it/?WesnothPhilosophy > > " So, from the beginning I decided that all spells would be=20 > implicit, or simply a type of attack." > > When I look at a tribalist and imagine him in my mind using magic, I=20= > think of it as a different type of attack than other magic users. I=20 > think of it as some primeval sort of voodoo attack rather than the=20 > trained learned spell of a mage. Him being animated with a different=20= > type of magic attack further reinforces that. Sure making it drain=20 > instead of magical would make a bit of difference, but I really don't=20= > think its that needed in the first case, and is certainly outweighed=20= > by the major negative balance problems it will create. The presence of the "magic" flag is what is causing the major negative=20= balance problems. The new setup is just as simple, gamewise. He was currently animated with exactly the same projectile as the white=20= mage, in the new animation he will have no projectile, unless code is=20 made to support reversed directions for projectiles (bits of life=20 energy being pulled through the air from his opponent). From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 01:03:32 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DccR2-0006LM-7i for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 01:03:32 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DccQx-0006Je-5O for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 01:03:28 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DccQt-0006H4-76 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 01:03:23 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DccQs-0006GH-FL for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 01:03:22 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DccLJ-00020K-SA for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:57:38 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.170] (unverified [209.131.231.170]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 23:56:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <06e89f173ff6c2608a63dc6db5f9404b@ll.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:55:59 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 05:03:29 -0000 On May 28, 2005, at 2:04 PM, David White wrote: > I think that currently the single player version of the game is easily > feature-complete enough for 1.0. The main things which could be > improved are more animations/graphical effects as Jetryl supports, and > campaign server improvements, as turin suggests. > > However I don't think either of these things are necessary for 1.0. > They could be added after 1.0 though. The sprite/particle engine I have been muttering about will finally allow us to exceed the original Command & Conquer games in graphical quality - it will allow things like smoke, and sparks to be emitted by specific units and interactions. I plan on coding this myself, though I'm going to need a good shot of help to familiarize myself with SDL/C++ Standard Library coding. As Dave has said, these would be best for post 1.0. > More animations creates more work for artists to do in animating > things. Considering the lackluster response since I implemented > animated deaths, I am not optimistic that we could complete extra sets > of animation in a short period of time. Walking animations would also be a good target to ignore until after 1.0. > In terms of content such as graphics, music, and sounds, I am more > flexible. They don't have the capacity to de-stabilize the game. I > think that for instance, if freim finishes his new terrain in time, we > can include that. New music and sounds would also be highly desirable. > Completing all animations is something we would definitely want. > > Now, in terms of adding new units, these are my thoughts: > - adding level 3 units to existing factions, such as the Drakes is > fine, since I don't think it changes the balance that much. Because of the schedule you outlined, I think I'm going to focus on finishing/adding all the new units as fast as I can - in fact I may try to get them all in before the next release. After that we really won't need any new units in the core factions. I may/may not do this with all the graphics in place, but I assure you they will get done eventually, and I'll try to get them all done before the release. I think it is important to *finish* that aspect of the game - to complete our unit set so we can start balancing some of the less stable races, like the dwarves and the drakes. There are less than a dozen units we need. I think we really need to rectify the Classic era somewhat - Default & Age of Heroes are fairly good, but classic could use a bunch of things - for one thing, it could use an analogue to Age of Heroes. > My method of balancing units is usually not to have an 'open forum, > all in' approach. I think this is counter-productive. I prefer to ask > the opinion of a few people who I perceive to be knowledgable in the > area, and then make a decision based on that. I would REALLY love it > if there was a developer who people trusted to make balancing > decisions. If I were to trust anyone to be able to perceive the subtle effects of balancing changes, it would be Elvish Pillager. > Some things which I think we really need for 1.0, which can be done > 'safely' in that they will not de-stabilize the game: > - better documentation in the help system As certain sprites reach their final stage, I'll start updating any pictures in the help system with the new ones. I should also lean on Elvish Pillager to start producing some general racial strategies - he has a few in the wiki, but needs to finish a complete set if we want them in. > - better sound effects This is something I have long been considering doing, as "foley art" is a skill I need to have, and one I suffered from not having quite a few times before. Why the heck not - I'll start sometime this month. > - work on bug fixes, including cosmetic cleanup and making the game > acceptably fast in all areas Yes, one of the big issues we currently have, outside of multi, is in how slow our help system is. > Remember that 1.0 can be seen in some ways as a starting point, not an > ending point. After 1.0 is released we can more confidently add > dramatic new features. Indeed. I plan on it. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 02:18:10 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcdbF-0003pL-Qq for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:18:10 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcdbC-0003o1-C9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:18:06 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcdbB-0003nl-22 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:18:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcdaF-0003RD-AH for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:17:07 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.89] (helo=rwcrmhc14.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcdOi-00059m-RC for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:05:12 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20050530060340014001epgqe>; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:03:41 +0000 Message-ID: <429AACB9.10807@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:03:37 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <4298C0AB.3080509@comcast.net> <06e89f173ff6c2608a63dc6db5f9404b@ll.net> In-Reply-To: <06e89f173ff6c2608a63dc6db5f9404b@ll.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:18:07 -0000 Richard Kettering wrote: > Yes, one of the big issues we currently have, outside of multi, is in > how slow our help system is. Actually this is already fixed in CVS. The help system is MUCH faster now. From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 02:38:32 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcduv-0003xV-1J for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:38:30 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcdul-0003wZ-4y for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:38:19 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcduh-0003w2-IR for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:38:16 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcdue-0003tY-Ud for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:38:13 -0400 Received: from [193.17.41.42] (helo=poczta.o2.pl) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcdtj-0007TS-87 for Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 02:37:15 -0400 Received: from [213.134.172.59] (danuta24.net.autocom.pl [213.134.172.59]) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102CA34004D for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:35:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <429AB437.8060704@o2.pl> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:35:35 +0200 From: Bartek User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: pl, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Balancing changes X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:38:22 -0000 Hello I've committed my first balancing changes: I've added to the orcish archer a fire ranged attack (5-2) and I've increased its cost from 12 to 14. It affects also the crossbowman- I've added a 8-2 fire ranged attack and increased its cost from 24 to 28. I needed to make two new images, missile-fire-n.png and missile-fire-ne.png which contain the graphic of the burning arrow. I would like some art developer to look at them, and if they are not acceptable possibly draw new ones. Bartek Waresiak aka "dragonking" From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 03:26:07 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dceez-0004iG-T2 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:26:06 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dceeu-0004fB-Vq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:26:01 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcees-0004dc-So for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:25:59 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dceer-000457-NB for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:25:57 -0400 Received: from [216.148.227.85] (helo=rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DceHL-00013p-5a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 03:01:39 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20050530070006014003jl4he>; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:00:06 +0000 Message-ID: <429AB9F3.9040103@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:00:03 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Isaac Clerencia Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 0.9.2 revisited References: <200505291720.55331.isaac@sindominio.net> In-Reply-To: <200505291720.55331.isaac@sindominio.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:26:01 -0000 Isaac Clerencia wrote: >Wesnoth 0.9.2 will be released at the end of this week, may be on Thursday >night or Friday morning. > >The string freeze for this release will start tonight at 00:00AM, then I will >run update-po and upload the .pot files that will be shipped with 0.9.2, so >please, don't upload new strings during the freeze. > > Since we are heading for Wesnoth 1.0, and there will be an extended period (at least four weeks) before release during which there will be a strict string freeze, I don't think we should have string freezes at the moment: indeed I think we will do better for everyone if we encourage people to make all their text changes asap. David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 05:33:09 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcgdw-0006Yg-7v for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 05:33:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcgds-0006Xw-CZ for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 05:33:04 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcgdq-0006Wb-42 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 05:33:02 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcgdo-0006P0-Kl for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 05:33:00 -0400 Received: from [64.39.31.27] (helo=server1.dns.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcgOL-00017c-TN for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 05:17:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by server1.dns.net (8.11.7/8.11.6) id j4U9FRB03352; Mon, 30 May 2005 09:15:27 GMT Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:16:38 +0200 From: ott To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] response to Aiming for 1.0 Message-ID: <20050530091638.GB16028@dns.net> References: <8134080906.20050527230402@gmx.net> <20050528020614.21677.qmail@web20528.mail.yahoo.com> <20050529114215.GA14224@dns.net> <161174119468.20050529135800@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <161174119468.20050529135800@gmx.net> Sender: ott@gaon.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:33:05 -0000 On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 01:58:00PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > maybe we have > about 10 complete translations in 1.0. And keeping perspective here -- with 4000+ strings in mainline, 10 complete translations is a major achievement that puts us up there as one of the shining lights of internationalization of games. -- ott@gaon.net From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 06:50:28 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dchqk-0002MP-Oc for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:50:27 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dchqf-0002IT-C4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:50:21 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dchqd-0002HF-7T for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:50:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dchqb-0002Ft-Go for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:50:18 -0400 Received: from [217.12.11.36] (helo=smtp005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dchpj-0000iW-Kt for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 06:49:24 -0400 Received: (qmail 79034 invoked from network); 30 May 2005 10:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.102?) (the15thfeuergnu@84.59.62.1 with login) by smtp005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2005 10:47:48 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:47:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Aiming for 1.0 From: Ruben To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050529104637.GA13905@dns.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:50:23 -0000 Hello, it would probably be good to publish a deadline for translators in the WIKI for version 1.0. At least the standart lang files should be checked through, especially if they are just more or less initial translations yet - if possible. The weight of a good translation shouldn't be underestimated for the success of 1.0. Also I would vote for FfF to be included into the campaign list of 1.0 :) Ruben aka The Very Uhu > How about an even more radical approach? Let's release 0.9.2 in about a > week, and set a feature freeze, aiming for 0.9.3 as an interim bugfix and > balancing release the following week, with 1.0rc1 the week thereafter, > and 1.0 on Monday 4 July -- with preannounced string freeze and release > dates for all of these. Then people can work on cool stuff for post-1.0 ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 10:14:54 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcl2c-0003As-Fd for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 10:14:54 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcjEi-0003Cf-29 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:19:16 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcjEA-0002pg-5J for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:18:42 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcjDZ-00027r-31 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:18:05 -0400 Received: from [196.192.36.22] (helo=serveur.moneytech.mg) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcj1C-0005sH-HE for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:05:19 -0400 Received: from serveur.moneytech.mg (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moneytech (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F0E51C119 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:03:40 +0300 (EAT) Received: from wide.bouthors.org (cyril.intranet.moneytech.mg [192.168.1.178]) by moneytech (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B4B51C118 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:03:40 +0300 (EAT) Received: from cyb by wide.bouthors.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dcj0X-0007Dj-Fl; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:04:37 +0300 To: David White References: <4221E056.9040308@optusnet.com.au> From: Cyril Bouthors Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:04:37 +0300 In-Reply-To: <4221E056.9040308@optusnet.com.au> (David White's message of "Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:59:34 -0600") Message-ID: <8764x0kjhm.fsf@wide.bouthors.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: Cyril Bouthors X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:14:52 -0400 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Re: Testing server changes X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:19:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 Feb 2005, David White wrote: > I was wondering of the feasibility of using a patched wesnoth-0.8.11 > wesnothd at server.wesnoth.org to see how well the changes work. I I'm sorry for the time I took to answer your mail but I'm not running the official Wesnoth server anymore for several months now. My advice would be to contact 213.139.183.144 (sta3-213-139-183-144.psoas.suomi.net) for this but I guess you already did. =2D-=20 Cyril Bouthors --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBCmwFVZ1SJHeqsYt8RAvwRAJ4wGyeoJyJQUMBLJw6EZty2PyfsXwCgs7fv bba+HqbzSzQenlw7oAgN9Uw= =7A0O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 12:40:15 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcnAd-0000CO-Pz for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 12:31:21 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcnAB-0008U0-9o for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 12:30:51 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcnA8-0008Ri-1J for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 12:30:48 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcnA7-0008Qf-FV for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 12:30:47 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.176] (helo=postfix4-2.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcn7w-0005Qz-Th for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 12:28:33 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (unknown [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1D531DA0D; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:26:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DcnAa-0000Db-4D; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:31:16 +0200 Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:31:15 +0200 To: David White Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Wesnoth 1.0 Message-ID: <20050530163115.GB1281@nowhere.earth> References: <4299D24C.3070103@comcast.net> <429A7389.5060402@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <429A7389.5060402@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:30:52 -0000 On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 08:59:37PM -0500, David White wrote: > Noy and Dragonking asked me if it would be possible for the 'Berserk' > ability to be reverted to its status as of 0.8.11 (that is, active on > defense). I reviewed the change that modified Berserk, and since it was > a single small code block I have reverted Berserk to this state. Is the idea to get "berzerk on defend" out only to moderate the balancing changes for 1.0, or is it getting rid of as being a bad idea after all ? -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 16:47:40 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrAi-0006lH-3n for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrAf-0006jp-7m for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:37 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrAc-0006iJ-C1 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:34 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrAc-0006hU-0Z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:34 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcr7y-0004vu-IF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:44:50 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 May 2005 20:43:08 -0000 Received: from p83.129.43.27.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.43.27] by mail.gmx.net (mp026) with SMTP; 30 May 2005 22:43:08 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:44:07 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Translatinos in 1.0 X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:47:38 -0000 I think we should take out TDH soon, so that translators do not work on it anymore when it will not be in 1.0. Either I do think we should not add a new campaign to 1.0. Adding new campaigns could be a job for post 1.0, I think. I think we do have to setup a list of rules, to estimate, when a translation is in 1.0 and when not. Here is what I would say every translation in 1.0 should have: - The mainfile should be rather complete (~99%) - wesnoth-lib should be complete (100%) - wesnoth-httt should be rather complete (>95%) I think we should have httt in as translated campaign, because it is the main campaign. Othercampaigns and the editor would be nice to have translated, but they should not be this important. If these things are not in a translation, it should should not be shipped with 1.0 version of the game. Also httt should be more easy on easiest difficulty level, so that even beginners can play it. Any comments on this? Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 17:09:14 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrVZ-0005Ag-Oo for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:13 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrVV-00057c-Fp for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrVS-00056Q-LN for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:06 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcrVS-00055t-3m for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:06 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.62] (helo=postfix4-1.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcrTl-0006To-Ft for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:07:21 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B6E317DDF; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:05:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DcrWy-0001AA-F5; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:40 +0200 Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:40 +0200 To: Nils Kneuper Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Translatinos in 1.0 Message-ID: <20050530211039.GD1281@nowhere.earth> References: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:09:11 -0000 On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 10:44:07PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > I think we should take out TDH soon, so that translators do not work > on it anymore when it will not be in 1.0. If we're going to drop TDH from official release, it makes sense. We could move it to the download server, for example. But maybe we could provide more support for 3rd-party campaigns, like a CVS module. That may help to coordinate work on these, to get them in shape for official endorsement. > I think we do have to setup a list of rules, to estimate, when a > translation is in 1.0 and when not. Why should we ? We could instead use such criteria for advertising translations, and/or maybe to tag them as "complete" i=or "incomplete" in the selection dialog, but I do not think we should stop shipping the other ones. It would IMHO harm the project, by letting translators think we do not value their work. OTOH, having such a thing like an "official translation" label may encourage teams to reach this goal, much like isaac's stat page create a friendly competition to get to 100% - which is maybe a distant goal nowadays because of the amount of work to get there, so I would welcome a more reasonable goal. > - The mainfile should be rather complete (~99%) > - wesnoth-lib should be complete (100%) > - wesnoth-httt should be rather complete (>95%) Eg, we could have a new view in the stats page about those "core translations", and this should maybe become the default view, instead of "all official domains". Best regards, -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 18:20:57 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcscx-0007xQ-7h for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:55 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcscn-0007sN-5c for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:45 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsch-0007ot-6Q for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:39 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsch-0007hq-0b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:39 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (helo=sccrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcsTg-0002XP-0b for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:11:20 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005053022093801100mk07ke>; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:09:39 +0000 Message-ID: <429B8F1F.2090103@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:35 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] 1.0 and Versioning X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:20:47 -0000 I think that after 1.0 we should probably switch into two branches: the 1.1 branch which is unstable and involves new development toward 1.2. The 1.0 branch would be stable, and most importantly, would maintain the same ruleset -- units would have the same stats etc. It might get improvements from the 1.1 branch in areas that are easy to improve though, like better graphics, and perhaps interface improvements. I think that something we should aim for though is for all 1.0 branch versions to be compatible with each other -- that is, version 1.0.1 could play multiplayer with version 1.0.3. The reason that this isn't all fanciful thinking about the future when we have to ship 1.0 now is that we are going to have to do something with version comparisons if this is going to work -- at the moment the game won't let 1.0.1 play with 1.0.3. One way to do this would be to have a game version, and then a 'ruleset version'. As long as the ruleset versions are equal, the games can play with each other. Another -- perhaps simpler -- way of doing it would be to modify the way Wesnoth compares versions for equality. We could, for instance, store version 1.0.1 as "1.0_1" and tell Wesnoth to only compare things before the '_' to see if versions are compatible. Thoughts on if and how we should do this? David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 18:21:07 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsd7-00083E-VJ for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:21:07 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcscw-0007xG-Qx for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:55 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsct-0007w0-Rj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:52 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcscs-0007hq-A4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:20:50 -0400 Received: from [216.136.227.62] (helo=web20527.mail.yahoo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcsPU-0002Ln-D8 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:07:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 93292 invoked by uid 60001); 30 May 2005 22:05:18 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=vkvCCZvu7l4LE8TVh7+8echUK779JRJrPIavYFLorUc2FmlSUG/nQ+Kbn8jf3oxiG7XKV8PJk+jL9h1F4ffKeoEE8s1a03ivmsLRSzjLENY8Ul23xaugY/DlMoS81miHd2N+LrRdqxWW22PBCUVFv+14eGnYWhizkCWwEenuRvE= ; Message-ID: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.60.131.93] by web20527.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:05:18 PDT Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Asa Swain Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] How much discussion should we have about changes? To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:20:56 -0000 I've been away for the US three day Memorial Day weekend, so I missed all the excitement. Congratulations to Dave for putting his foot down and making the hard decisions needed to steer this project towards 1.0. I disagree with the sudden change to have berserk happen again while defending. And I was surprised to see the orcish archers suddenly gain a fire attack. Normally we would have a long discussion before big changes like these happened. But perhaps this is a sign of the new order, that a few people have the power to do what they will to improve the balance of the game. How much will discussion be curtailed in the push to get to 1.0? Should be some discussion over the merits of these changes? Should more people be added to the council in charge of balancing? Would this slow down the process too much? I don't know. I may not agree with all the changes made, but no matter what the final version looks like, I'm excited about the prospect of actually reaching 1.0, as opposed to being eternally stuck in development. -Asa __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 18:27:58 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsjm-000253-3U for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:27:58 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsjj-00023x-Rr for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:27:55 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcsjj-00023N-3Z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:27:55 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcsdM-0007hq-7o for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:21:20 -0400 Received: from [204.127.198.39] (helo=rwcrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcs8c-0001Wj-Sq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:49:35 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <200505302147530150099ucpe>; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:47:53 +0000 Message-ID: <429B8A06.3030700@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:47:50 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090301070207010607070102" Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] [Fwd: [Wesnoth-cvs-commits] wesnoth/data game.cfg] X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:27:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090301070207010607070102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jetryl, You made the below changes and a few other changes last night. Although I can appreciate that there was at least some discussion of the changes, since that discussion I've appointed Dragonking and Noy as overseeing multiplayer balancing at least up until 1.0. They tell me that they intend to revert at least some of your changes, since they have a certain vision of how things should be balanced, so I'm just letting you and others know as a courtesy that they are doing this with my approval and that I have full confidence in them to balance the game going toward 1.0. I am sure that they would be happy to discuss balancing with you further if you would like. I hope that we can effectively co-ordinate the art and stats/balancing as we move toward 1.0. Cheers, David --------------090301070207010607070102 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="[Wesnoth-cvs-commits] wesnoth/data game.cfg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="[Wesnoth-cvs-commits] wesnoth/data game.cfg" X-Account-Key: account1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by rwcrmxc17.comcast.net (rwcrmxc17) with ESMTP id <20050530112812r1700l6guqe>; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:28:12 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [199.232.76.165] Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DciTd-0000mm-VP for davidnwhite@comcast.net; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:30:37 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DciRE-0007IG-N3 for wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:28:09 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DciR9-0007FQ-55 for wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:28:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DciR8-00073w-8v for wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:28:02 -0400 Received: from [199.232.41.3] (helo=savannah.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DciIF-0002dn-M1 for wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:18:51 -0400 Received: from savannah.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1]) by savannah.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1DciGh-0007KH-00 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:17:15 -0400 To: wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org From: Richard Kettering Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:17:15 -0400 Subject: [Wesnoth-cvs-commits] wesnoth/data game.cfg X-BeenThere: wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-cvs-commits.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: wesnoth-cvs-commits-bounces+davidnwhite=comcast.net@nongnu.org Errors-To: wesnoth-cvs-commits-bounces+davidnwhite=comcast.net@nongnu.org CVSROOT: /cvsroot/wesnoth Module name: wesnoth Branch: Changes by: Richard Kettering 05/05/30 11:17:15 Modified files: data : game.cfg Log message: Changes to saurian and drakefoot movetypes. CVSWeb URLs: http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/wesnoth/wesnoth/data/game.cfg.diff?tr1=1.157&tr2=1.158&r1=text&r2=text Patches: Index: wesnoth/data/game.cfg diff -u wesnoth/data/game.cfg:1.157 wesnoth/data/game.cfg:1.158 --- wesnoth/data/game.cfg:1.157 Mon May 30 07:47:54 2005 +++ wesnoth/data/game.cfg Mon May 30 11:17:14 2005 @@ -1470,24 +1470,28 @@ [/resistance] [/movetype] - [movetype] + [movetype] name=lizard flies=false + # Saurians do alright on, but not especially well on rough terrain like hills + # They are very bad at scaling ridges and climbing in general, preferring to jump over obstacles + # They prefer soft, unstable ground like sand, or swamp - their wide feet handle that better than others + # Terrain with a ground plane that is not interrupted by obstacles over 1.5meters tall is best for them [movement_costs] deep_water=100 - shallow_water=3 + shallow_water=2 swamp_water=1 grassland=1 sand=1 forest=2 - hills=1 - mountains=2 + hills=2 + mountains=3 village=1 castle=1 cave=1 canyon=100 cavewall=100 - tundra=4 + tundra=3 [/movement_costs] [defense] @@ -1497,8 +1501,8 @@ grassland=60 sand=40 forest=40 - hills=40 - mountains=40 + hills=50 + mountains=60 village=50 castle=40 cave=40 @@ -1609,7 +1613,7 @@ [movetype] name=drakefly flies=true - # Drakes are huge (easy targets) flying beast, but are different + # Drakes are huge (easy targets) flying beasts, but are different # from the classical flying unit: to fight they have to land # They love caves and mountains, and above all: warmth [movement_costs] @@ -1647,7 +1651,7 @@ [resistance] blade=90 - pierce=110 + pierce=120 impact=80 fire=50 cold=150 @@ -1657,8 +1661,8 @@ [movetype] name=drakefoot - # These Drakes have crippled wings - they don't fly - # But they have thicker hides + # These Drakes wear heavy armor - they don't fly + # But the armor makes them a good bit tougher # Do a bit worse in Swamps as they can't hop to dry spots [movement_costs] deep_water=100 _______________________________________________ Wesnoth-cvs-commits mailing list Wesnoth-cvs-commits@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/wesnoth-cvs-commits --------------090301070207010607070102-- From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 18:49:34 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dct4g-0000LF-7I for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:49:34 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dct4M-0000Ea-Ae for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:49:14 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dct49-0000AQ-Au for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:49:05 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dct47-0008Sx-25 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:48:59 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.64] (helo=sccrmhc13.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcsvj-0004Sn-E9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:40:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2005053022383701600rggkoe>; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:38:38 +0000 Message-ID: <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:38:34 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Asa Swain Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] How much discussion should we have about changes? References: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:49:31 -0000 Asa Swain wrote: >I disagree with the sudden change to have berserk >happen again while defending. And I was surprised to >see the orcish archers suddenly gain a fire attack. >Normally we would have a long discussion before big >changes like these happened. > Well, Noy and Dragonking are in charge of making decisions like this, and I have confidence in them. What's more, we DID have discussion of how 'berserk' should operate -- in fact, we have had heated discussion on it since April, 2004: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1139&start=0 Exactly how much more needs to be said on that topic? Does anyone really have anything new to add? I think it's time for someone to make a decision, and Noy and Dragonking have impressed me as the people who I can have confidence in to make such decisions. As for the Orcish Archer getting a fire attack, that was mentioned several times too. It wasn't exactly brought up for 'debate', but I'm not sure how much purpose this would have served. >I may not agree with all the changes made, but no >matter what the final version looks like, I'm excited >about the prospect of actually reaching 1.0, as >opposed to being eternally stuck in development. > > No-one is going to agree with all changes made, not even me. However, we have to design things by placing people in charge of certain areas rather than have a 'design by committee' approach. This is the approach I have always preferred, and it has shown itself to work better than when we fall into a 'design by committee' approach in the history of Wesnoth too. David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 21:50:01 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcvtJ-0001FC-B6 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:50:01 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcvtF-0001BU-2Q for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:49:57 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcvt9-00018w-Pf for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:49:52 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcvt8-0000zm-MS for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:49:50 -0400 Received: from [167.206.4.196] (helo=mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcvhF-0005Qx-SF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:37:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.40] (ool-43560191.dyn.optonline.net [67.86.1.145]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IHB00HPSZ5J0Q@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 21:36:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:36:33 -0500 From: Alex Turner In-reply-to: <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Message-id: <429BCDB1.7090809@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) References: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] My Dev-ship X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 01:49:59 -0000 Everyone, Well, as I'm sure you've all noticed (or not), I'm very busy in real life. Its been weeks since I've posted on the forums, and months since my last commit. At this point, I don't think it's fair to call me a dev. I don't even know half the devs anymore, and don't see an opportunity to get to know them, much less make any commits, in the near future. I'd like to 'stay on', if you'll have me, as I love Wesnoth, and fully intend to return to Wesnoth in a few months. But in the mean time, I don't expect to really 'be around' as I haven't been for the last 6 months or so. Feel free to revoke my CVS access if you feel that's for the best; if, when I return, I must work my way back up to 'dev' status, so be it. I've had a great time here, and fully intend to one day have a great time once again. -Alex Turner From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 22:53:36 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcwsq-0002YL-1f for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:53:36 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcwi4-0000JN-UY for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:42:30 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcwhv-0000FR-Cb for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:42:19 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcwhu-00006w-Dj for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:42:18 -0400 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (helo=sccrmhc11.comcast.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DcwXg-0000I7-3H for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 22:31:44 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.176] (c-67-174-168-81.hsd1.tx.comcast.net[67.174.168.81]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005053102300001100mmcl2e>; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: <429BCC25.7080704@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:29:57 -0500 From: David White User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Network operations and threading X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 02:53:34 -0000 One of the more nasty issues that I think we should resolve before 1.0 is described in this bug report: https://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/index.php?func=detailitem&item_id=12614 The basic problem is that when a network connection is attempted, Wesnoth makes some blocking network calls, and waits for them to complete. In the case of a problem, Wesnoth may remain blocking for a long period of time, which will appear to the user as Wesnoth simply freezing. I think this is very poor behavior and needs to be rectified, but I don't know enough about threading to confidently say what the best solution is. My thought is that we should create some kind of interface for an 'asynchronous operation'. In pseudo-code, I mean something like this: execute_asynchronous_operation(asynchronous_operation& op, waiter& waiter_obj) { start thread which executes operation defined by 'op' while(waiter_obj is still willing to wait for the operation to complete) { wait for 'op' to finish for 50ms, and if it has, return } terminate the operation and return } 'waiter_obj' would perform some kind of operation to see if it's willing to wait -- such as display a dialog box to the user. I think this would work okay...the main question I have is of how to terminate the operation. I'm not sure if it's okay to generally go around killing threads when they are in a blocking call such as resolving a hostname, or sending data over the network. Does anyone know? Alternatively I guess we could leave the thread running and have it joined() on program exit, hoping that it is done whatever it was doing by then. Any thoughts or comments from those who know more about this than me would be appreciated. :) David From MAILER-DAEMON Mon May 30 23:17:18 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DcxFl-00028u-L3 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:17:18 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcxFZ-00023o-L0 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:17:06 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DcxFS-0001zB-QU for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:17:00 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DcxFR-0001ng-8y for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:16:57 -0400 Received: from [144.124.16.40] (helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dcx90-0001wy-Hh for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:19 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=cefni.aber.ac.uk) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcx7H-0006wW-6m for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 04:08:31 +0100 Received: from clarlp1rss04.clar.aber.ac.uk ([144.124.120.74]) by cefni.aber.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dcx6Z-0006vR-9Z for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 04:07:47 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> References: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7442a7294b2f3c85f4733aea56c6b5ff@aber.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard S. Subject: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Revision Reasons Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 04:07:46 +0100 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Sophos-Scanned: from rss04@aber.ac.uk virus scanned OK X-UWA-Mid: 1Dcx6Z-0006vR-9Z X-UWA-Originating-IP: 144.124.120.74 X-UWA-Bounce-Filter: Curtvw35iW X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 03:17:09 -0000 Yesterday, Monday 30th of May, several changes were committed to the drake faction by Jetryl that we believed were unbalancing to the faction. These were done without our knowledge or approval, so we have reverted them back to their previous state. I have written a summary for each change for why they should not have occurred. #1 Saurian Tribalist Changes Hitpoints 18->27hp Cost 16-18 gp Ranged 5-3 Magical -> 7-2 drain Currently Tribalist occupies a critical important mission profile for the drakes. It was used primarily as a unit to dislodge high defence units for the drake faction. It was particularly effective against certain defence tactic where opponents chose to purchase archers (or similar projectile secondary units like the thunderer ect.) and place them on high defence terrain (mountains, forest ect...). Since most drakes were highly vulnerable to piercing attacks, and were unlikely to kill or severely damage these defending units, the defending archer would be able to do often effectively inflict grossly distorted combat exchanges against drakes (who had poor terrain modifiers anyways). This was even more so true for the Burner whose main attack is ranged, which would be countered by a ranged piercing attack. In essence, to undertake any attack successfully, Drakes had to commit proportionally more resources than other races to undertake a successful attack. (this strategy was particularly effective when drakes had -20%, now it only effects piercing units that do more than 5 damage -> dextrous E. Archers, O. Archers during night and human archers) Saurians Tribalists provided a solution to this defence by enabling the faction to remove them at a lower cost. They did so by being less vulnerable to damage both in attack and in counterattack. The superior resistance to pierce weapons (20% more than their drake brethren) and superior defence, made it more resilient to these attack. Secondly and most importantly to this change was their ability to actually hit units in defendable terrain, which was the problem with the other units. The magical attack enabled a player the ability to dislodge these defendable units that no other drake unit could do. By changing it to drain the drakes now have a serious capability hole which can be exploited by opposing players. Other negative effects are clearly visible. Drakes have been consistently hounded about their high cost in comparison to other factions. Upping the cost to 18 just makes another drake unit that is at 18 gold, and one less in the 14~16 range. As for the predicted effects effects of having drain, and increased HP, this will likely have the exact opposite effects as jetryl intended. Drain is a powerful effect when it hits, and players will likely use the unit as a front-line fighter across a wider spectrum of usage than is the current role that the saurian is used for now. Also these changes have caused the removal of the icecaster... a curious change given that these changes are supposed to increase the diversity of the factions. #2 Drake Clasher Changes Melee 6-4 Spear (pierce) -> 8-3 Mace (impact) Conceptually the drake clasher is different from the rest of the drake line, as is very clear by its unit description and traits. This is also quite true for its use in the game. In multiplayer, clashers are the prime unit used to combat human and elvish units. Its higher than average resistances for drakes, and its effective melee attacks made it the prime unit (with saurians) to combat units in these factions. The spear attack was particularly useful against horsemen, which would have to risk serious damage if it attempted to attack a clasher. Nominally the horseman would be a devastating unit against drakes. The Horseman's pierce allows it to inflict serious damage to drakes, and the lower hp of the saurians make it an easy target to be picked off by a horseman (unless it misses). The alteration of the secondary attack of the Clasher from spear to mace really is unnecessary and weakens the primary role of the clasher. Mace attacks (impact) are optimized towards the undead... however given that the drakes already have several effective units to attack undead units (burners for instance) there is no need for this change. Furthermore, the principle strategy for the undead against the drakes doesn't use units vulnerable to impact. The current main strategy for Undead is to buy 4~5 Dark adepts, and a horde of Walking corpses. The dark adepts usually do severe damage to drake units, while the corpses defend the adepts as blockers and finish off the weakened drakes. A change to mace will have no effect on this strategy at all, as none of these units have any weaknesses to impact. Even if other units do exist, it is preferable to used range fire to kill them so not to incur damage. Therefore, the prime reason for this change does not exist. The only other unit that the change to mace could be effective against is trolls, with no resistances to impact (vs 20 to pierce and blade). Yet even here firebreathing units are preferable since many of the other northerner units do not have ranged attacks to counterattack with. All this change will do is exacerbated some of faction's weaknesses vis-a-vis loyalists, which the drakes already have serious problems with. The change to mace only overlaps the current strengths of the faction, and opens up new weaknesses. For these reasons we have decided on revision. #3 Drake Pierce Resistance Pierce resistance -10%-> -20% Had this have gone through with the clasher change, any game between humans and Drakes would be a completely one sided affair. The resistance was just changed in 0.9.1 to 10% for precisely these reasons. At -20% two spearmen in the day could have a reasonable chance of killing a burner, at -10% its very unlikely. This also increases the effectiveness of all archers... giving the elvish archer a 6-4 attack, and the human archer a 8-3 attack. If these revisions were to remain, the drake faction would become easy prey for factions with pierce damage overall. Of all these changes, this one would have had the worst effect on balancing. #4 Proposed Movetype changes to saurians Hill 1-> 2 movement cost, 60->50% defence Mountain 2->3 movement cost 60% -> 40%defence The Saurian is a very temperamental race. It sits on a razor edge where a minor change could upset its delicate balance. Currently (0.9.1) the skirmisher is overpowered. The most unbalanced strategy in the current version is the saurian rush where a drake player essentially buys all skirmishers. For its "combat statistics" the saurian is an balanced unit. What was unbalanced was its movement. By utilizing its 7 movement range and skirmishing, the skirmisher just runs around everything. The unit is exceptional in being able to evade attacks by dispersion, and then instantly concentrating their attack on a exposed unit... then dispersing again. Yet, these changes just cripple a unit that relied more so than almost any other unit on its defensive modifiers to fight effectively in the game... its combat statistics were balanced. By diminishing its modifiers on hills and mountains, essentially these units will be that much less effective, making its relatively low HP become that much more apparent. Really the only problem with the saurian skirmisher was its ridiculous movement that became apparent when combined with skirmishing. This enabled it to either ignore zocs and evade attack by outrunning its opponents, or striking critical units deep within enemy territory, like units weak and recovering. It had little to do with its low terrain movement costs. So these changes would have little effect on their unbalanced position today. These alteration will also have serious effects on the other members of the saurian faction, which did not have skirmishing ability. These units were never complained about before, but now will be at a disadvantage, both on terrain and their movement... thus unbalancing, balanced units. Our proposed change of increasing its cost from 14->15 gold and decreasing its movement from 7->6 would have corrected this problem, without hampering other saurians. This change actually specifically addressed the problem at hand. #5 Glider Add marksmanship Currently the drake faction does have a significant problem, its units are very pricey. Many people have also complained that the Glider is underpriced as well. So by adding marksmanship to the glider, essentially the gold cost of the glider will have to increase as well... and then the drakes will saddled with another high cost unit further putting it at a numerical disadvantage. Furthermore I do not see an effective use for this ability. The glider most certainly isn't a general combat unit. It has limited health, and drake flaws. If used against other scouts (its likeliest target), marksmanship not so helpful against the elvish scout (who would counter with arrows), and doesn't do enough damage to gryphons or cavalry. That leaves bats, which yes marksmanship would be effective against. Yet as I have said before, there is no need for them to make the drakes more effective against Undead. In conclusion these changes would have made a drake faction that would have been seriously crippled when confronted by other factions, with the exception of the undead. Of particular problem would be against the humans, which was only remedied in the last release, and now a regression is occurring again? This makes little sense. The ranged unit defence tactic would return in full force, with drakes being even more susceptible to this tactic as they would suffer even more damage from ranged attack, and having little recourse to it with the removal of the tribalist as an effective counter. It is our belief that this would have had a worse effect on balancing than the 9.0 Dwarven changes, and thus we have committed a full retraction. I welcome any comments or criticisms. I will try to post a more general list of our own changes to the mailing list tomorrow evening. I have already done so in the message forum, so I encourage all to post there if you are interested in the meantime http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6125 Richard and Bartek From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 31 02:34:57 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1Dd0L0-00033U-RN for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:34:55 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dd0Ks-000323-Lw for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:34:47 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Dd0Kq-00031U-Jo for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:34:45 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dd0Kp-0002zB-E0 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:34:43 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dd0Hn-0004zI-8C for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 02:31:35 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 May 2005 06:29:46 -0000 Received: from vpn157.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE (EHLO [129.217.138.245]) [129.217.139.157] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 31 May 2005 08:29:46 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Message-ID: <429C042A.3050509@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:28:58 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yann Dirson Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Translatinos in 1.0 References: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> <20050530211039.GD1281@nowhere.earth> In-Reply-To: <20050530211039.GD1281@nowhere.earth> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:34:48 -0000 Yann Dirson wrote: >On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 10:44:07PM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > > >>I think we should take out TDH soon, so that translators do not work >>on it anymore when it will not be in 1.0. >> >> > >If we're going to drop TDH from official release, it makes sense. We >could move it to the download server, for example. > >But maybe we could provide more support for 3rd-party campaigns, like >a CVS module. That may help to coordinate work on these, to get them >in shape for official endorsement. > > I also think, we should put TDH onto the campaign server. Making the possiblity of User-Campaigns being used directly out of a cvs or svn-rep is a good idea, since there already is such a rep (wescamp-i18n). But the problem is, that we have a feature freeze atm. So this should be a feature for post 1.0. >>I think we do have to setup a list of rules, to estimate, when a >>translation is in 1.0 and when not. >> >> > >Why should we ? We could instead use such criteria for advertising >translations, and/or maybe to tag them as "complete" i=or "incomplete" >in the selection dialog, but I do not think we should stop shipping >the other ones. It would IMHO harm the project, by letting >translators think we do not value their work. > >OTOH, having such a thing like an "official translation" label may >encourage teams to reach this goal, much like isaac's stat page create >a friendly competition to get to 100% - which is maybe a distant goal >nowadays because of the amount of work to get there, so I would >welcome a more reasonable goal. > > > > I think that it is not good, to ship translations that are only partly done. If eg. in the translation of a campaign some sentences in a mission are in english, some in another language, it will destroy the whole atmosphere. I think this is at least the same, as if we shipped units, where the images would be a kind of little sketch. You would vote against delivering such with 1.0. So do i vote against delivering files for translations that are only done very partitionally only. If there are 5strings missing in textdomain, it would be not such a big problem. But if only 20% are done, eg some unit descriptions are translated, others not, it woulc not be good. >>- The mainfile should be rather complete (~99%) >>- wesnoth-lib should be complete (100%) >>- wesnoth-httt should be rather complete (>95%) >> >> > >Eg, we could have a new view in the stats page about those "core >translations", and this should maybe become the default view, instead >of "all official domains". > > > Good idea. I would welcome this. Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 31 15:49:09 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DdCjc-00047f-C4 for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:49:08 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdCjO-00041M-Mm for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:48:55 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdCjI-0003y6-R9 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:48:50 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DdCjI-0003xS-I6 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:48:48 -0400 Received: from [209.131.224.35] (helo=mercury.ll.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdCiF-0007VQ-K4 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:47:44 -0400 Received: from [209.131.231.2] (unverified [209.131.231.2]) by mercury.ll.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.2.315.0) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:45:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <7442a7294b2f3c85f4733aea56c6b5ff@aber.ac.uk> References: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> <7442a7294b2f3c85f4733aea56c6b5ff@aber.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Richard Kettering Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Revision Reasons Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:45:36 -0500 To: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:48:57 -0000 On May 30, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Richard S. wrote: > Yesterday, Monday 30th of May, several changes were committed to the > drake faction by Jetryl that we believed were unbalancing to the > faction. These were done without our knowledge or approval, so we have > reverted them back to their previous state. I have written a summary > for each change for why they should not have occurred. > > #1 Saurian Tribalist > Changes > Hitpoints 18->27hp > Cost 16-18 gp > Ranged 5-3 Magical -> 7-2 drain > > Currently Tribalist occupies a critical important mission profile for > the drakes. It was used primarily as a unit to dislodge high defence > units for the drake faction. It was particularly effective against > certain defence tactic where opponents chose to purchase archers (or > similar projectile secondary units like the thunderer ect.) and place > them on high defence terrain (mountains, forest ect...). Since most > drakes were highly vulnerable to piercing attacks, and were unlikely > to kill or severely damage these defending units, the defending archer > would be able to do often effectively inflict grossly distorted combat > exchanges against drakes (who had poor terrain modifiers anyways). > This was even more so true for the Burner whose main attack is ranged, > which would be countered by a ranged piercing attack. In essence, to > undertake any attack successfully, Drakes had to commit proportionally > more resources than other races to undertake a successful attack. > (this strategy was particularly effective when drakes had -20%, now it > only effects piercing units that do more than 5 damage -> dextrous E. > Archers, O. Archers during night and human archers) > > Saurians Tribalists provided a solution to this defence by enabling > the faction to remove them at a lower cost. They did so by being less > vulnerable to damage both in attack and in counterattack. The superior > resistance to pierce weapons (20% more than their drake brethren) and > superior defence, made it more resilient to these attack. Secondly and > most importantly to this change was their ability to actually hit > units in defendable terrain, which was the problem with the other > units. The magical attack enabled a player the ability to dislodge > these defendable units that no other drake unit could do. By changing > it to drain the drakes now have a serious capability hole which can be > exploited by opposing players. > > Other negative effects are clearly visible. Drakes have been > consistently hounded about their high cost in comparison to other > factions. Upping the cost to 18 just makes another drake unit that is > at 18 gold, and one less in the 14~16 range. > > As for the predicted effects effects of having drain, and increased > HP, this will likely have the exact opposite effects as jetryl > intended. Drain is a powerful effect when it hits, and players will > likely use the unit as a front-line fighter across a wider spectrum of > usage than is the current role that the saurian is used for now. Also > these changes have caused the removal of the icecaster... a curious > change given that these changes are supposed to increase the diversity > of the factions. Diversity was increased by removing yet another unit with a ranged magic attack. Drain is much less useful for any combat than magic, unless said combat is taking place in very bad defensive conditions for the victim - magic is often applied in such a way as to kill the enemy within the first one or two strikes of the effect (for low-level mages, at least, who cannot endure damage) - thus a unit with "magic" does not lose the hitpoints they would regain with drain. This unit has been adjusted to be on a comparable power level to the elvish shaman. If you want to make him into a special combat unit, then we should commit to that - and remove "heals" entirely from the unit. In fact - you know what? I'm going to do just that. I'll give you back your saurian magic attack unit, and make the elves more unique in having a healing capability that others don't. No one ever uses the tribalist for it's healing, and the elvish shaman looks mighty sad next to previous state of the tribalist. This saves me several hours of work in animating the healing frames, which I am not getting paid for. > #2 Drake Clasher > Changes > Melee 6-4 Spear (pierce) -> 8-3 Mace (impact) > > Conceptually the drake clasher is different from the rest of the drake > line, as is very clear by its unit description and traits. This is > also quite true for its use in the game. In multiplayer, clashers are > the prime unit used to combat human and elvish units. Its higher than > average resistances for drakes, and its effective melee attacks made > it the prime unit (with saurians) to combat units in these factions. > The spear attack was particularly useful against horsemen, which would > have to risk serious damage if it attempted to attack a clasher. > Nominally the horseman would be a devastating unit against drakes. The > Horseman's pierce allows it to inflict serious damage to drakes, and > the lower hp of the saurians make it an easy target to be picked off > by a horseman (unless it misses). > > The alteration of the secondary attack of the Clasher from spear to > mace really is unnecessary and weakens the primary role of the > clasher. Mace attacks (impact) are optimized towards the undead... > however given that the drakes already have several effective units to > attack undead units (burners for instance) there is no need for this > change. Furthermore, the principle strategy for the undead against the > drakes doesn't use units vulnerable to impact. The current main > strategy for Undead is to buy 4~5 Dark adepts, and a horde of Walking > corpses. The dark adepts usually do severe damage to drake units, > while the corpses defend the adepts as blockers and finish off the > weakened drakes. A change to mace will have no effect on this strategy > at all, as none of these units have any weaknesses to impact. Even if > other units do exist, it is preferable to used range fire to kill them > so not to incur damage. Therefore, the prime reason for this change > does not exist. The only other unit that the change to mace could be > effective against is trolls, with no resistances to impact (vs 20 to > pierce and blade). Yet even here firebreathing units are preferable > since many of the other northerner units do not have ranged attacks to > counterattack with. > > All this change will do is exacerbated some of faction's weaknesses > vis-a-vis loyalists, which the drakes already have serious problems > with. The change to mace only overlaps the current strengths of the > faction, and opens up new weaknesses. For these reasons we have > decided on revision. Loyalists have severe problems with drakes, on account of the saurians. This isn't even a contest - a drake player can beat a loyalist player almost every single time because of the presence of the saurian skirmisher. The drake clasher in the previous revision was not a good unit to use against horsemen - it was weak to pierce, whereas saurians were resistant to pierce, and had a vastly inferior movetype and movement count. It was easily outmaneuvered by cavalry, which, up until the last release could exploit a time of day weakness to strike harder during favorable hours. The drake faction already had a de facto "primary pierce unit" - the skirmisher. With the changes to the alignment of drakes, this became even more solidified - compared to clashers he became a much better unit to use against cavalry. Not only did the skirmisher have a host of movetype and movement advantages over the Because of the new movetype, he can be made cheaper, rather than more expensive, as his effectiveness has been reduced. However, to make you happy, I'm going to revert this fellow to what he was before. It was a negligible change, really, for reasons I've outlined above - he had pierce capability, but no one was using it. Whatever. > #3 Drake Pierce Resistance > Pierce resistance -10%-> -20% > > Had this have gone through with the clasher change, any game between > humans and Drakes would be a completely one sided affair. The > resistance was just changed in 0.9.1 to 10% for precisely these > reasons. At -20% two spearmen in the day could have a reasonable > chance of killing a burner, at -10% its very unlikely. This also > increases the effectiveness of all archers... giving the elvish archer > a 6-4 attack, and the human archer a 8-3 attack. If these revisions > were to remain, the drake faction would become easy prey for factions > with pierce damage overall. Of all these changes, this one would have > had the worst effect on balancing. That was a completely unintended mistake, made on part of some bad snafus in my edit of game.cfg - apparently some routine work was done to it after the change, bringing it to a new version. I checked the diff in webcvs, saw that none of the routine work (some preprocessor stuff by Silene) affected the section including the saurian/drakefoot movetypes, and just copied in the relevant sections. As it turns out, my copy was more than one revision old, and the previous settings got copied in. I'm glad you caught this. > #4 Proposed Movetype changes to saurians > Hill 1-> 2 movement cost, 60->50% defence > Mountain 2->3 movement cost 60% -> 40%defence > > The Saurian is a very temperamental race. It sits on a razor edge > where a minor change could upset its delicate balance. Currently > (0.9.1) the skirmisher is overpowered. The most unbalanced strategy > in the current version is the saurian rush where a drake player > essentially buys all skirmishers. For its "combat statistics" the > saurian is an balanced unit. What was unbalanced was its movement. By > utilizing its 7 movement range and skirmishing, the skirmisher just > runs around everything. The unit is exceptional in being able to > evade attacks by dispersion, and then instantly concentrating their > attack on a exposed unit... then dispersing again. Yet, these changes > just cripple a unit that relied more so than almost any other unit on > its defensive modifiers to fight effectively in the game... its combat > statistics were balanced. By diminishing its modifiers on hills and > mountains, essentially these units will be that much less effective, > making its relatively low HP become that much more apparent. Really > the only problem with the saurian skirmisher was its ridiculous > movement that became apparent when combined with skirmishing. This > enabled it to either ignore zocs and evade attack by outrunning its > opponents, or striking critical units deep within enemy territory, > like units weak and recovering. It had little to do with its low > terrain movement costs. So these changes would have little effect on > their unbalanced position today. These alteration will also have > serious effects on the other members of the saurian faction, which did > not have skirmishing ability. These units were never complained about > before, but now will be at a disadvantage, both on terrain and their > movement... thus unbalancing, balanced units. > > Our proposed change of increasing its cost from 14->15 gold and > decreasing its movement from 7->6 would have corrected this problem, > without hampering other saurians. This change actually specifically > addressed the problem at hand. Your proposed change doesn't solve the problem. The saurian skirmisher's problems stemmed entirely from it's movetype - it had quite nearly a better movetype than flying, if you disregard behaviour on water. With 1 move point per tile for forest, swamp, sand, hills and a relatively low 2 mp for mountains, it could move anywhere unencumbered - not only that, it could do so and receive great defensive bonuses for doing so (60%, which is equivalent to some elves in forest). Saurians, given their skirmisher ability and movetype, could always be placed in high defensive terrain at their owner's whim. The only counters to saurians were either a unit that could pierce this defensive barrier, which was always present because they could access such terrain within 5 spaces on nearly any multiplayer map, or the ability to storm them with numbers (something only available to orcs). For most races, the relevant magic/marksman using units were very frail compared to the saurians, and had much worse movetypes in addition to being slower. In most cases, these would actually prevent the magic-using unit from entering higher-defense terrain (which would garner it only 50% defense, not 60% in almost all cases except that of the elvish druid/shyde). > #5 Glider > Add marksmanship > > Currently the drake faction does have a significant problem, its units > are very pricey. Many people have also complained that the Glider is > underpriced as well. So by adding marksmanship to the glider, > essentially the gold cost of the glider will have to increase as > well... and then the drakes will saddled with another high cost unit > further putting it at a numerical disadvantage. Furthermore I do not > see an effective use for this ability. The glider most certainly isn't > a general combat unit. It has limited health, and drake flaws. If > used against other scouts (its likeliest target), marksmanship not so > helpful against the elvish scout (who would counter with arrows), and > doesn't do enough damage to gryphons or cavalry. That leaves bats, > which yes marksmanship would be effective against. Yet as I have said > before, there is no need for them to make the drakes more effective > against Undead. Elvish scouts receive > 40% defense in forest, hills, and mountains, and return fire with a paltry 2 arrows. An elvish scout would likely do more damage attacking with its melee attack against a drake than its ranged attack, and would have a better chance of hitting. Goblin wolf riders receive > 40% defense on even more terrains, and move as well as the glider on everything but water and forest. This change would make the rather useless attack into a special "focused strike" attack, allowing drakes to strike at units which had been weakened in combat - negating the problem of the overbearing damage of the saurian tribalist, but retaining the ability to hit such units, and even extending the range of it. You also seem to be forgetting how low an amount of damage cold does to mermen - drakes currently have no counter against mermen, but apparently we will leave them that way. The undead are an odd lot against drakes, as EP has demonstrated before, they are balanced, but in a rather incendiary way - both factions have units that do high damage to the opposing side. It seems to me that the undead have the better side of the bargain, because they can hire units which are not vulnerable to the preferred damage type of their opponents, and said units have the magic, cold attack which so annihilates drakes and saurians. If nothing else, they retard the use of drakes above level 1, since it is nearly as easy to kill those. The entire fact of having skeletons which were vulnerable to fire, and undead which used cold instead of a special "shadow/whateveryouwanttocallit" damage type is the source of this whole problem. We could evaporate that if we were willing to make that change, but nevermind. > In conclusion these changes would have made a drake faction that would > have been seriously crippled when confronted by other factions, with > the exception of the undead. Of particular problem would be against > the humans, which was only remedied in the last release, and now a > regression is occurring again? This makes little sense. The ranged > unit defence tactic would return in full force, with drakes being even > more susceptible to this tactic as they would suffer even more damage > from ranged attack, and having little recourse to it with the removal > of the tribalist as an effective counter. It is our belief that this > would have had a worse effect on balancing than the 9.0 Dwarven > changes, and thus we have committed a full retraction. In conclusion, these changes would have made a drake faction that no longer had an inherent advantage over nearly every other faction by rote of their magic using units. From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 31 16:06:40 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DdD0a-0002FO-1f for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:06:40 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdD0X-0002EV-Uv for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:06:38 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdD0V-0002DX-SF for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:06:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DdD0V-0002Bu-OT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:06:35 -0400 Received: from [213.228.0.62] (helo=postfix4-1.free.fr) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdCz4-0000fz-5a for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:05:06 -0400 Received: from nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 (nanterre-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.214.146]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60258317F3B; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:03:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwitch by nanterre-1-81-57-214-146 with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DdD26-0006jm-Uk; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:08:15 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:08:14 +0200 To: Nils Kneuper Subject: Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Translatinos in 1.0 Message-ID: <20050531200814.GF1281@nowhere.earth> References: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> <20050530211039.GD1281@nowhere.earth> <429C042A.3050509@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <429C042A.3050509@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i From: Yann Dirson Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:06:38 -0000 On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 08:28:58AM +0200, Nils Kneuper wrote: > I also think, we should put TDH onto the campaign server. Making the > possiblity of User-Campaigns being used directly out of a cvs or svn-rep > is a good idea, since there already is such a rep (wescamp-i18n). But > the problem is, that we have a feature freeze atm. So this should be a > feature for post 1.0. Right. Maybe we could for now keep it in the main cvs, but don't install it by default, and maybe just adding a --enable-unfinished-campaigns flag to configure to control its installation. > If eg. in the translation of a campaign some sentences in a > mission are in english, some in another language, it will destroy the > whole atmosphere. I think this is at least the same, as if we shipped > units, where the images would be a kind of little sketch. You would vote > against delivering such with 1.0. Right, but... > So do i vote against delivering files > for translations that are only done very partitionally only. If there > are 5strings missing in textdomain, it would be not such a big problem. > But if only 20% are done, eg some unit descriptions are translated, > others not, it woulc not be good. ... we do not need to take so an extreme decision. Images are not exactly the same, as they would be seen by all our users. OTOH, just hiding that some work (sometimes even much work) has already been done on their language, could prevent some potential translators for joining us and complete a job, which they would have deemed too large for them to do all alone from the start. That could help So here is my 1st amendment to the euro.. er... wesnothian constitution... er... to my previous proposal, rather :), trying as much as possible to ensure that someone seeing those incomplete translations would known what to expect: - a switch (radio button) in the language selection dialog, that would by default hide those incomplete translations. It would always be turned off when entering the dialog, and turning it on would bring a warning dialog, before even seeing the extented language list. - This warning could even advertise that volunteers are welcomed, and that when the translation gets complete enough, it would get into the official campaigns, within the 1.x releases. - This warning would also be displayed on each startup of a game using that language, as an additional reminder, and could even offer to switch back to english at that moment if we think it is a good idea. It could also/alternatively be displayed when starting a new campaign/mp-game. - As a bonus, a per-campaign warning dialog as described above could be even used for those languages that passed the criteria for official translation, before the use starts a campaign for which this translation is not complete. Then the choices could be: 1) play in english, 2) do not play this campaign, 3) go ahead, I want it (ok, less enthousiasm could be displayed for the last option ;) Does that seem reasonable enough to you ? > >>- The mainfile should be rather complete (~99%) > >>- wesnoth-lib should be complete (100%) > >>- wesnoth-httt should be rather complete (>95%) > >> > >> > > > >Eg, we could have a new view in the stats page about those "core > >translations", and this should maybe become the default view, instead > >of "all official domains". > > > > > > > Good idea. I would welcome this. Cool - now if isaac would have 10 minutes to implement it it would be just great :) Note, I missed the recently-added "all unofficial packages" choice, thanks isaac ! Best regards, -- Yann Dirson | Debian-related: | Support Debian GNU/Linux: | Freedom, Power, Stability, Gratis http://ydirson.free.fr/ | Check From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 31 16:23:34 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDGu-00088f-Ok for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:23:33 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDGr-00085x-VP for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:23:30 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDGq-00084Z-Jc for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:23:28 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDGq-000838-5j for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:23:28 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdDEv-0001iw-Eq for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:21:35 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 May 2005 20:19:34 -0000 Received: from p83.129.2.161.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.2.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 31 May 2005 22:19:34 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:20:23 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19219240625.20050531222023@gmx.net> To: Richard Kettering Subject: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Drake Revision Reasons In-Reply-To: References: <20050530220518.93290.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com> <429B95EA.5080000@comcast.net> <7442a7294b2f3c85f4733aea56c6b5ff@aber.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:23:31 -0000 >In fact - you know what? I'm going to do just that. I'll give you >back your saurian magic attack unit, and make the elves more unique in >having a healing capability that others don't. No one ever uses the >tribalist for it's healing, and the elvish shaman looks mighty sad next >to previous state of the tribalist. This saves me several hours of >work in animating the healing frames, which I am not getting paid for. I strongly have to disagree with this statement. I do not know, how often you played drakes in MP, but i played them very often. The normal tactic is to have a "front row" of attackers and a 2nd row of supporters. These are the skirmishers and the tribalists. The triblists are able too heal my poor front soldiers and jump in if there is a high defense unit. The skirmisher can go in, to take a very strong oponent out, but they get killed quite often. You can not put the Tribalist into the first rwo, because of very low hp. This makes it balanced again. If you use it for attacking, you do HAVE to defeat the enemy and guard your tribalist again, because they are the first target for enemy attacks. This makes it interesting to play the drakes. If you are not carefull enough, you lose these important units. If you are carefull, you got a good chance of holding the position. And I also think that really NOONE ever has discussed with you, what it would mean,if the healing was removed from the tribalist. This is a very important change, though. Please do not forget this. Maybe you should talk to the Devs for MP-Development *before* you change units and races in such a harsh way. They kindly offerd their help, why not help them in getting good balancing. I think they really do have good ideas, and maybe there could be a mix of both of your ideas be the best solution in the end. But this is not possible, if you do changes like this. Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic From MAILER-DAEMON Tue May 31 16:31:09 2005 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDOH-0001od-Ai for mharc-wesnoth-dev@gnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:09 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDOF-0001nz-BC for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:07 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDOD-0001mr-3k for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:06 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DdDOC-0001lJ-JT for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:31:04 -0400 Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdDIp-000200-48 for wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 16:25:31 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 31 May 2005 20:23:36 -0000 Received: from p83.129.2.161.tisdip.tiscali.de (EHLO rechner1) [83.129.2.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 31 May 2005 22:23:36 +0200 X-Authenticated: #7898742 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:24:30 +0200 From: Nils Kneuper X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <719487843.20050531222430@gmx.net> To: Yann Dirson Subject: Re[2]: [Wesnoth-dev] Translatinos in 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20050531200814.GF1281@nowhere.earth> References: <131292086484.20050530224407@gmx.net> <20050530211039.GD1281@nowhere.earth> <429C042A.3050509@gmx.net> <20050531200814.GF1281@nowhere.earth> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-BeenThere: wesnoth-dev@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nils Kneuper List-Id: wesnoth-dev.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:31:07 -0000 I really think it would be great to have options of displaying it, if a translation is incomplete. I really like the warning, because all translations could be shiped by default. But I think it is not really possible to add this for 1.0, simply because of the feature freeze. It can cause new bugs and problems. For example: how to find out, if there should be a warning or not? I would really like to have such a feature, but i do think it will not make it into 1.0. But the idea really is good... Greets, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic