Re: Keyboard mapping of Option and Command

[Ondrej Florian]

On 2024-06-07 18:58:37 +0200 Riccardo Mottola <riccardo.mottola@libero.it> 
wrote:

I would make the mouse modifiers configurable and be independent of the 
keyboard modifiers.
By default they could map to 1:1, I don't mind, but user should be able to 
change it.

A desktop environment can come up with its own default preferences 
corresponding to whatever
standard it wants to follow and offer nice GUI to change it (I do that with 
GSDE).

As for the Meta / Super / etc. discussion.
I agree with Riccardo => World is not only about Mac and Windows anymore (well, 
it has never been, really ;-).
As long as you can map and configure the modifier in any way you want to, I 
don't see an issue.

Thanks,
Ondrej

> - still in case 2 keys only are available, something needs to be done. The 
> current setup is bad, it is well tailored for menu shortcuts, but not for 
> mouse operation. So I could propose Mouse to have a different meaning of 
> alt... in case offer another solution to reach the missing command. This 
> could be generalized, in case during setup of defaults one wants to swap 
> things (some keyboards have ctrl in another place...) but still ends up with 
> overlapping things. Offer a Mouse extra modifier? different Keyboard and 
> mouse setups?

> Hi,
> 
> your answer is not properly an answer to by question about defaults,, but 
> some comments about topics, since the issue remains, despite nice chat about 
> naming, where history mixes up with diversity and convenience.
> 
> Jamie Ramone wrote:
>> I ALWAYS change the default to Alt = ALTernate (<-- hello?), Ctrl = 
>> Control, and Windows key(s) = Command. I just find the Win keys in PC 
>> keyboards to be a natural replacement for NeXT keyboard's Command key. 
>> Leave control as control, leave alt as alt. This weird control or alt as 
>> Command always felt awkward to me, especially now that keyboards have 
>> special GUI specific keys such as the Win key which is otherwise a hood 
>> ornament on systems GNUstep runs on other than Windows, such as Linux.
>>    Also, when the Win key is unavailable (e.g. Ubuntu hardcoding it to 
>> desktop functionality), I use the Menu key.
>> Here's the contents of my NSGlobalDomain.plist:
> 
>> You can check it out if you want for any code examples on how to implement 
>> something like that as well at 
>> https://github.com/JamieRamone/MondoPreferences.
> 
> We have SystemPreferences which allows mapping and which I used. Mapping an 
> extra key to represent command and remove ambiguity works. Or at least should 
> work - if application did not do strange workarounds, as GWorkspace did.
> I am working to remove that workaround, an application should just use the 
> masks for modifiers as being native to NeXT or Mac, the rest should be hidden
> I think it is easy to agree on that.
> 
> The problem is what to do with the default setup, more about below.
> 
> 
> 
>> One thing I'd suggest we do is purge things like Meta and Super from our 
>> vocabulary. SUN is dead, and has been for decades. Fancy-shmancy terminals 
>> are a relic of a bygone era. Just about everyone has either a PC or a Mac. 
>> There are Win, Ctrl, and Alt for PC, and Option, Control and Command for 
>> Macs. Also Option = Alt and Ctrl = Control, so the only real "extra" or 
>> "new(-ish)" keys are the Win and sometimes present menu keys.That's what 
>> the everyday Joe Blow will call them, we should as well. It's just one of 
>> the many, many little things that hamper wide(r)-spread adoption.
> 
> 
> That is a bit a presumptuous statement. Luckily, the world isn't just about 
> Win and Mac anymore and also Mac changed some of its keys (e.g. right alt, 
> enter...)
> I don't like your suggestion because it sounds cool but is not. Think about 
> Meta, Super, Hyper just terms you need to bridge. Average Joe just needs to 
> care about actions of Copy & Paste and the terms actually used in NeXT/Apple 
> terminology. Command & Option.
> Sun didn't have those keys, it had a different layout, although command very 
> similar to Apple and a nice compose key. Those terms are much older, come 
> from the Symbolics keyboard - so old that the names are just magic...  
> perhaps best would be to call them "key with log left to space bar" or such. 
> Think them about as intermediate names you just need to setup once and 
> forget.
> It is not so easy. I don't want a menu option called "window key" in 
> SystemPreferences. Why? Not everybody is using a full PC keyboard with 
> standard layout
> * One could use a Sun! yes, Linux, BSD runs on them. Or could just use a Sun 
> or Apple USB keyboard attached to a PC.
> * One could use a laptop... several laptops lack the window & menu keys or 
> put them in awkawrd places or require a Fn-key combination making them 
> useless
> * One could use a raspberry, then what... "Fruit key" ?
> * Chromebook keybord? hes neither... no there is no Google key :)
> 
> Further things complicate this. Explained that Hyper, Syper, Meta have no 
> real meaning in any normal computer of the last 20 years, it is also 
> different how they are mapped... so Hyper could be Windows in one setup, but 
> something else in another. You said yourself Ububtu eats keys.
> So... complicated.
> A way would be to provide a standard mapping menu, but allow packages for 
> specifc OS to tailor it or such a thing... complicated, but doable.
> 
> 
> The problem of what offer to default with GNUstep remains:
> - Default to a 3 keyboard setup and have the people with lesser keyboards 
> tweak it?
> - still in case 2 keys only are available, something needs to be done. The 
> current setup is bad, it is well tailored for menu shortcuts, but not for 
> mouse operation. So I could propose Mouse to have a different meaning of 
> alt... in case offer another solution to reach the missing command. This 
> could be generalized, in case during setup of defaults one wants to swap 
> things (some keyboards have ctrl in another place...) but still ends up with 
> overlapping things. Offer a Mouse extra modifier? different Keyboard and 
> mouse setups?
> 
> Riccardo
>