Re: [libreplanet-discuss] No, Stallman isn't "nuts" nor does he deserve less freedom of speech

['smee]

I'll miss seeing your input on this list. 

This thread smells agenda-driven to me and I've avoided reading most of
it for that reason. 

I think that censorship is the only goal for these people. The details
of how they get there don't really matter to them, nor the people they
attack. 



On Mon, 2019-09-16 at 11:33 +0100, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss
wrote:
> Stallman single handedly spearheaded the entire free software
> movement
> back in the 80s, and he's still going strong even today, talking at
> conferences all over the world. He's a man of great integrity who
> does
> what he says and means what he says.
> 
> Meanwhile, Mr. Gates is funding companies like Monsanto who are
> destroying the planet. And making the world generally a very
> depressing
> place to live.
> 
> Try to put things into perspective, k?
> 
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:29:00 +0100
> Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > The TR;DR version of my previous mail is this:
> > 
> > Without the FSF, we'd be up shit creek. So please everyone grow the
> > fuck up and move on, and keep doing wonderful things. This
> > infighting
> > helps nobody but our enemies.
> > 
> > On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:19:26 +0100 Leah
> > Rowe <info@minifree.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I'm unsubscribing from this list. The FSF has been stagnating a
> > > lot
> > > over the years anyway... though I still respect them, and RMS.
> > > 
> > > But I don't like all this spam, and most of what goes on this
> > > list
> > > appears to be spam nowadays :S
> > > 
> > > Before I do unsubscribe, I'd like to impart some wisdom on you
> > > all:
> > > 
> > > While the FSF and GNU project (and RMS, in spite of his many
> > > flaws -
> > > hey, we're not perfect. cut the guy some slack OK? he stands by
> > > his
> > > convictions to the letter, and you have to respect that) are
> > > wonderful, they are not the whole movement. My advice: respect
> > > organisations like the FSF, but realize they don't operate on
> > > their
> > > own; the movement is powered by people like *you*. In fact, the
> > > FSF
> > > in my own personal experience is chronically understaffed and
> > > most
> > > of their work is done by volunteers... The FSF is what I consider
> > > a
> > > "thought leader"
> > > - more or less like a political party. Thought leaders are great,
> > > but you don't get there on thought alone.
> > > 
> > > Keep writing free software and keep spreading the good word of
> > > free
> > > software and (more importantly) copyleft. Trivial stuff like this
> > > shit with RMS mean nothing in the grand scheme. Just a cranky old
> > > man with the best of intentions, saying things now and then that
> > > are a bit weird (but I could say the same of anyone).
> > > 
> > > And keep donating to the FSF. They *do* do excellent work in the
> > > community.
> > > 
> > > I'll leave it at that for today. I might come to future
> > > libreplanet
> > > conferences still.
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 15
> > > Sep 2019 21:47:26 -0400 Steven Sullam <steve@stevesullam.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > WTF? I became interested in the libre group as a more human
> > > > alternative to commercial profit driven technology. I am not
> > > > interesed in reading discussions of Richard Stallman's personal
> > > > life or the lack of ethics in his personal behavior here.
> > > > 
> > > > On 9/15/19 8:53 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
> > > > > Adrienne G. Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > The record on Richard Stallman underscores that he is
> > > > > > driven
> > > > > > by ethical sensibilities. He's not about to approve of rape
> > > > > > anytime soon. So let's just tell rms to shut up about the
> > > > > > Epstein matter, not to attempt to
> > > > > > defend his idols (some of which I, *personally*, know are
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > worth defending) and to get a female FSF colleague to
> > > > > > censor
> > > > > > all his comments pertaining to women before these comments
> > > > > > go
> > > > > > public.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Or you could choose to not tell him or anyone else to "shut
> > > > > up"
> > > > > or accept a censorship regime. And you could also reject
> > > > > virtue 
> > > > > signaling, sexism, and identity politics (regarding the "get
> > > > > a
> > > > > female FSF colleague"). After all, for all you know he could
> > > > > select a woman who doesn't agree with your take and you'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > nowhere to go because he met your sexist and identity
> > > > > politics-driven request.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You could understand that he too gets freedom of speech to
> > > > > say
> > > > > things you don't agree with (that's what freedom of speech is
> > > > > for, after all). You could choose to continue to use your
> > > > > freedom of speech as you've done while also respecting his.
> > > > > Counterspeech seems far more appropriate for this situation
> > > > > where Stallman hasn't done anything more wrong than possibly
> > > > > hold, share, and change views some others don't like.
> > > > > 
> > > > > His comments across some posts to his personal blog make me
> > > > > think I'm getting a poorly-explained half story from others
> > > > > on
> > > > > this topic. Considering what he wrote in 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Statements_about_Epstein)
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey
> > > > > > Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my
> > > > > > statements.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be
> > > > > > further
> > > > > > from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I
> > > > > > defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > hurt because of what they believe I said.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the
> > > > > > misunderstanding.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong
> > > > > > about sex between an adult and a child, if the child
> > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've
> > > > > > learned to
> > > > > > understand how sex with a child can harm per
> > > > > > psychologically.
> > > > > > This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that
> > > > > > enabled
> > > > > > me to understand why.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#13_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Epstein_donations) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Media Lab Director Joi Ito confessed that he had secretly
> > > > > > accepted donations from Epstein after MIT had decided not
> > > > > > to do
> > > > > > so.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > He also accepted funds for some personal activities of his
> > > > > > own.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That dishonesty, and conflict of interest, make his
> > > > > > resignation
> > > > > > obligatory.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I fear for the effect on the Media Lab. Under
> > > > > > Negroponte,
> > > > > > the lab was notoriously stingy and proprietary. Ito
> > > > > > corrected
> > > > > > that. I fear that the next director will undo some of Ito's
> > > > > > changes.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#11_August_201
> > > > > 9_(Jeffrey_Epstein_committed_suicide) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Jeffrey Epstein appears to have committed suicide in his
> > > > > > cell.
> > > > > > Or perhaps he was murdered — it is not unusual for
> > > > > > prisoners to
> > > > > > murder prisoners accused of sexual crimes.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long
> > > > > > distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into
> > > > > > sex
> > > > > > or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those
> > > > > > people. I believe those accusations, and I think he
> > > > > > deserved
> > > > > > to be imprisoned.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage
> > > > > > minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16.
> > > > > 
> > > > > as well as other posts on that same webpage, I see a
> > > > > consistent 
> > > > > objection to rape regardless of the age of the victim, and I
> > > > > see public contrition for changing a view he held which he
> > > > > now
> > > > > views as wrong. Had we followed your censorious
> > > > > recommendations
> > > > > back then (to either "shut up" or to "get a female FSF
> > > > > colleague to censor all his comments pertaining to women
> > > > > before
> > > > > these comments go public") we might not have been able to
> > > > > read 
> > > > > https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_
> > > > > 2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) 
> > > > > today and we'd lack any principled claim on free speech.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Those who choose to conflate Stallman's views with those of
> > > > > the
> > > > > FSF or the GNU Project seem to me to be either making a
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > in that conflation or be opportunistic (possibly virtue
> > > > > signaling).
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-di
> > > > > scuss
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
> > > > uss
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > > 
> > > Do you know you have rights?
> > > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > > and censored by the government.
> > > 
> > > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > > 
> > > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > > United Kingdom
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Leah Rowe <info@minifree.org>
> > Company Director & Libreboot developer
> > https://minifree.org/ https://libreboot.org/
> > 
> > Do you know you have rights?
> > The right to privacy, free speech, the right to read
> > and the right to learn. The right not to be spied on
> > and censored by the government.
> > 
> > Defend freedom. Use free (free as in freedom) software.
> > Spread freedom. Tell everyone you know about it!
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
> > 
> > Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom.
> > Registered in England, registration No. 9361826
> > VAT Registration No. GB202190462
> > Minifree Ltd, 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island
> > Essex SS8 9QA, United Kingdom
> > United Kingdom
> 
> 
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