Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement

[Davis Remmel]

Fidelman,

> Well... I mean that coddling folks

You were literally the first person to respond to OP. Nobody was coddling them. 
You're now trying to frame a situation different from reality.

> folks who loudly, and authoritatively
> pronounce bullshit - particularly when stated as fact

This is also literally what you're doing: trying to state your opinion as fact, 
as if you are somehow an arbiter of what kinds of conversation are allowed on 
this mailing list, which also is named "libreplanet-discuss." You are trying to 
shut down on-topic discussion in a mailing list that is explicitly for that 
purpose.

You are unable to see how you are perpetuating the very problem you claim to 
want to fix. You say there are "know-nothings" but instead of offering 
specific, point-by-point advice, you make broad generalizations. You explicitly 
stated that you want to "shoot down" "know-nothings" -- ask yourself, how does 
that build a community where "know-nothings" can turn into "know-somethings"?


--
Davis

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, July 24, 2020 11:56 AM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> 
wrote:

> Well... I mean that coddling folks who loudly, and authoritatively
> pronounce bullshit - particularly when stated as fact - I say shoot it
> down, loudly, and often.  (As opposed to canceling people, "moderating"
> or otherwise censoring, or expelling people from groups.  I'm sorry, but
> I've come to favor bluntness over kindness, when dealing with healthy
> adults.)
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> On 7/24/20 12:38 PM, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
>
> > Well, Miles, as I'm not a native English speaker I'm not sure I understood 
> > what you said correctly but I agree somehow.
> > The goal of FSF is not to commercialize the software libre concept but it's 
> > to spread knowledge about it and make people know their digital rights and 
> > care for it.
> > However, if by strong defense you mean trolling people and calling them 
> > idiots, I don't agree with you. I believe we should educate people. 
> > Trolling, I believe, is somehow forcing people.
> > On July 24, 2020 4:30:00 PM UTC, Miles Fidelman mfidelman@meetinghouse.net 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Not for nothing, but...
> > > "The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide
> > > mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all
> > > software users."  (from the FSF home page)
> > > To me, the key word is "defend" - and, frankly, when know-nothings
> > > pontificate about why free software is doomed to failure - a strong
> > > defense is called for.  Not a kind defense. Not a polite defense.  A
> > > strong defense.  (IMO)
> > > Miles Fidelman
> > > On 7/24/20 11:02 AM, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
> > >
> > > > I actually don't agree to this. The goal of FSF is to make software 
> > > > libre knowledge and use worldwide.
> > > > Such analogy you mentioned is not for all people.
> > > > On July 24, 2020 8:40:29 AM UTC, Msavoritias 
> > > > marinus.savoritias@disroot.org wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I agree completely. We could attract people with an enjoyable 
> > > > > experiece
> > > > > and the community feeling.
> > > > > We should investigate how FSF and GNU can improve these areas.
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > MSavoritias
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 07:29, Yasuaki Kudo yasu@yasuaki.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In a way, I think money is not even a big issue.
> > > > > > I recently came across this article:
> > > > > > https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-slow-computing
> > > > > > Applying the "Slow Food" analogy, our point would not be pouring
> > > > > > money so that it becomes "Less Slow" 😄
> > > > > > I would say, we need to have more people enjoy it. So in practical
> > > > > > terms, we need to develop a huge communal kitchen, instead of an
> > > > > > industrial food factory.
> > > > > > The workers at food factory, or paid computer programmers at
> > > > > > Microsoft, for example, would not go there were it not for the 
> > > > > > money.
> > > > > > However, the people at communal kitchens at camping sites go there
> > > > > > for the enjoyment of it!
> > > > > > Free Software development should a very enjoyable activity and we
> > > > > > should aim to develop a practical regime of constantly welcoming new
> > > > > > participants, educating them and empowering them to enjoy and
> > > > > > contribute meaningfully to the Fee Software ecosystem 😄
> > > > > > -Yasu
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2020, at 06:36, Msavoritias
> > > > > > > marinus.savoritias@disroot.org wrote:
> > > > > > > Mr Fidelman,
> > > > > > > Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should
> > > > > > > treat
> > > > > > > everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free
> > > > > > > Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more
> > > > > > > polite
> > > > > > > in the future.
> > > > > > > MSavoritias
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman
> > > > > > >     <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss 
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >       I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a 
> > > > > > > strong
> > > > > > >       supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. 
> > > > > > > However,
> > > > > > >       when you keep money away from the free software movement, 
> > > > > > > such a
> > > > > > >       movement cannot survive against people who actively charge 
> > > > > > > money
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment.
> > > > > > > When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or
> > > > > > > volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you
> > > > > > > present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a
> > > > > > > central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost
> > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity for
> > > > > > > getting food at your table. I really want people to remove
> > > > > > > reliance
> > > > > > > on external things and make GNU central and very active.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well.  Apache 
> > > > > > > powers the
> > > > > > >     web.  Postfix powers email.  Linux, Python, ...  And plenty 
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > bug
> > > > > > > guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit? Do you
> > > > > > > just like making a fool of yourself? Or am I missing something?
> > > > > > > Miles
> > > > > > > Fidelman
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> > > > > > > practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know
> > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one
> > > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works
> > > > > > > and no
> > > > > > > one knows why. ... unknown
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ 
> > > > > > > libreplanet-discuss
> > > > > > > mailing list [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > > > > [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > > > > > > References
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > > > >     2.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > > > > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> > > > > > > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
> > >
> > > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> > > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> > > In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> > > nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
> > >
> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> > > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> > > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>
> --
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
>
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss