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Re: Support RMS


From: Yuchen Pei
Subject: Re: Support RMS
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:35:59 +0100
User-agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1

It is one thing to raise legitimate concerns in a legitimate way, but a different matter to support a campaign based on blatent lies and mischaracterisations, that stifles discussions (as the "open letter" does not allow any constructive criticism) and aims at character assassination.

Deb Nicholson <deb@eximiousproductions.com> writes:

Hi,
I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left most of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the extremely toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed on the LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing the occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of free
software.

RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of the people who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance against sexism in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to re-consider his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender people in
our communities.

I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose free software for everything. There is no way for free software to win if hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get sick of the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities. People take their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again that he is not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement that grows, instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't lead.

Sincerely,
Deb Nicholson

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati <hayati@riseup.net> wrote:

Hello Danny.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen gay people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after all,
that's just jokes and humor.

About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice person to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person. Every person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people in my
life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.

If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.

However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've signed is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending
truth, that statement/letter is completely false.

I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
truth is important.

Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just your
personal conflict/disappointment.

On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia > shares > several years of experience working at FSF and directly with > RMS. Ali, > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software > movement
> needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
> https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> <https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
> “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a > while. I > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED > John Sullivan > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed > to be > removed from gnu.org <http://gnu.org>. rms didn't get why it > was
harmful.
>
> Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical > manual? He > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people > (who respected > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't > cool.
>
> The thing that randos who have never had to actually work > with rms don't > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried > to help > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at > Libreplanet as if
> it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>
> Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent > advocating > for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical > community > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and > over.
>
> This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software > community > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work > with a bunch > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing > Libreplanet > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the > world
>
> free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's > an ugly > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced > consequences > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades > of shitty
> behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>
> It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we > don't focus > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by assholes > sealioning > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER > enough) it's > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now. DON'T > LET THEM
>
> My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I > made a pull
> request in order to sign on to this letter.
> https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ > <https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
>
> One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They > didn't ask > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently > impromptu > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the > community > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive > director.”
>
> The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 > individuals,
> including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati > <hayati@riseup.net
> <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
>
> Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board of > directors.
Now,
> some organizations and people are attacking FSF and RMS > and are
asking
>     them to resign.
>
> Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to > resist this > pressure and continue work for the good of the software > libre
movement.
>
> Sending message to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org> is > a way of
>     showing your support. They
> are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step down > from our
>     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
>
>     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of > > support for RMS.
>      >
>      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
>     <hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>
> > <mailto:hayati@riseup.net <mailto:hayati@riseup.net>>> > > wrote:
>      >
>      >     People,
>      >
> > FSF board has received lots of messages today and > > there's no
>     need to
>      >     add
> > to the pile. Please send your support for RMS to > > info@fsf.org
>     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
> > <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>> and > > ask
>      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
>      >
> > Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can > > learn one
>     thing from
> > the whole movement is to keep our principals and > > fight for
>     justice. FSF
> > made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not to > > defend RMS
>     against
>      >     false
> > accusations. Today, we can make that right by > > supporting a
>     wonderful
>      >     honorable man.
>      >
> > Show your support by sending messages to > > info@fsf.org
>     <mailto:info@fsf.org>
> > <mailto:info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>>. Do it > > now, later
>      >     may be late.
>      >
>      >     Best.
>      >     --
>      >     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com
>     <https://alirezahayati.com> <https://alirezahayati.com
>     <https://alirezahayati.com>>)
>      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 > > C354
>      >
>      >     _______________________________________________
>      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
>      > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
>      >     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
>     <mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
>      >
>     https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
>     <https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>
>      >
>       <
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss <
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss>>
>      >
>
>     --
>     Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com <
https://alirezahayati.com>)
>     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
>     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
>

--
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354

_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
   Hi,
I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left most of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the extremely toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed on the LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing the occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support
   of free software.
RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of the people who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance against sexism in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to re-consider his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of
   transgender people in our communities.
I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to choose free software for everything. There is no way for free software to win if hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they get sick of the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our communities. People take their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again that he is not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement that grows, instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then
   RMS shouldn't lead.
   Sincerely,
   Deb Nicholson

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hayati@riseup.net>
   wrote:

     Hello Danny.
I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen
     gay
people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after
     all,
     that's just jokes and humor.
About being offended, again that's not a problem with RMS. Maybe he hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice
     person
to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up person.
     Every
person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many people
     in my
     life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion and respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's again
     respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.
However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've
     signed
is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to defending
     truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because defending
     truth is important.
Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's just
     your
     personal conflict/disappointment.
     On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> I am having a difficult time right now. This person > Georgia shares > several years of experience working at FSF and directly > with RMS.
     Ali,
> their testimony makes me think that maybe the free > software
     movement
> needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied > from
     > [2]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
     > <[3]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
> “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward > for a
     while. I
> recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED > John
     Sullivan
> about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s > needed to be > removed from [4]gnu.org <[5]http://gnu.org>. rms didn't > get why it
     was harmful.
     >
> Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a > technical
     manual? He
> threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people > (who
     respected
> him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that > wasn't
     cool.
     >
> The thing that randos who have never had to actually work > with rms
     don't
> understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him > tried to
     help
> him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at > Libreplanet
     as if
     > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
     >
> Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been > spent
     advocating
> for free to software and building the inclusive, > impractical
     community
> so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over > and
     over.
     >
> This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free > software
     community
> is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to > work with a
     bunch
     > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing
     Libreplanet
> was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across > the world
     >
> free software has the ability to do so much good, but > there's an
     ugly
     > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced
     consequences
> for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the > decades of
     shitty
> behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his > return
     >
> It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because > we don't
     focus
> on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by > assholes
     sealioning
> for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER > enough)
     it's
> possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms > now. DON'T LET
     THEM
     >
> My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but I > made a
     pull
     > request in order to sign on to this letter.
     > [6]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
     <[7]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
     >
> One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about > this. They didn't
     ask
> for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' > apparently
     impromptu
     > announcement, they labor for the organization and for the
     community
> every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive > director.”
     >
> The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500 > individuals,
     > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
     >
     > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     <[8]hayati@riseup.net
     > <mailto:[9]hayati@riseup.net>> wrote:
     >
> Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board > of
     directors. Now,
> some organizations and people are attacking FSF and > RMS and
     are asking
     >     them to resign.
     >
> Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to > resist
     this
> pressure and continue work for the good of the > software libre
     movement.
     >
> Sending message to [10]info@fsf.org > <mailto:[11]info@fsf.org>
     is a way of
     >     showing your support. They
> are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not step > down from
     our
     >     principals, which are fighting for justice and truth.
     >
     >     On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of > > support for
     RMS.
     >      >
     >      > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
     >     <[12]hayati@riseup.net <mailto:[13]hayati@riseup.net>
     >      > <mailto:[14]hayati@riseup.net
     <mailto:[15]hayati@riseup.net>>> wrote:
     >      >
     >      >     People,
     >      >
> > FSF board has received lots of messages today > > and
     there's no
     >     need to
     >      >     add
> > to the pile. Please send your support for RMS > > to
     [16]info@fsf.org
     >     <mailto:[17]info@fsf.org>
> > <mailto:[18]info@fsf.org > > <mailto:[19]info@fsf.org>> and
     ask
     >      >     them to resist pressures and stay with us.
     >      >
> > Software libre is a matter of justice. If we > > can learn
     one
     >     thing from
> > the whole movement is to keep our principals > > and fight
     for
     >     justice. FSF
> > made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not > > to defend
     RMS
     >     against
     >      >     false
     >      >     accusations. Today, we can make that right by
     supporting a
     >     wonderful
     >      >     honorable man.
     >      >
     >      >     Show your support by sending messages to
     [20]info@fsf.org
     >     <mailto:[21]info@fsf.org>
> > <mailto:[22]info@fsf.org > > <mailto:[23]info@fsf.org>>. Do
     it now, later
     >      >     may be late.
     >      >
     >      >     Best.
     >      >     --
     >      >     Ali Reza Hayati ([24]https://alirezahayati.com
> <[25]https://alirezahayati.com> > <[26]https://alirezahayati.com
     >     <[27]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
     >      >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 > > 75A3 C354
     >      >
     >      >     _______________________________________________
     >      >     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     >      > [28]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >     <mailto:[29]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
     >      >     <mailto:[30]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     >     <mailto:[31]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>>
     >      >
     >
     [32]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss
     >
     <[33]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>
     >      >
     >
     <[34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss
     <[35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
     uss>>
     >      >
     >
     >     --
     >     Ali Reza Hayati ([36]https://alirezahayati.com
     <[37]https://alirezahayati.com>)
     >     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 > C354
     >
     --
     Ali Reza Hayati ([38]https://alirezahayati.com)
     Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
     PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
     _______________________________________________
     libreplanet-discuss mailing list
     [39]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
     [40]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
     ss

References

   1. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   2. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   3. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
   4. http://gnu.org/
   5. http://gnu.org/
   6. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   7. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
   8. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
   9. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  10. mailto:info@fsf.org
  11. mailto:info@fsf.org
  12. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  13. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  14. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  15. mailto:hayati@riseup.net
  16. mailto:info@fsf.org
  17. mailto:info@fsf.org
  18. mailto:info@fsf.org
  19. mailto:info@fsf.org
  20. mailto:info@fsf.org
  21. mailto:info@fsf.org
  22. mailto:info@fsf.org
  23. mailto:info@fsf.org
  24. https://alirezahayati.com/
  25. https://alirezahayati.com/
  26. https://alirezahayati.com/
  27. https://alirezahayati.com/
  28. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  29. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  30. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  31. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  32. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  33. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
  36. https://alirezahayati.com/
  37. https://alirezahayati.com/
  38. https://alirezahayati.com/
  39. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  40. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
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