Re: Setting up classical guitar fingerings

[Valentin Petzel]

Sure. I suppose for a guitar person having stacked fingerings on top would be 
rather confusing, as there is no monotonic relating between finger and pitch. 
As such I suppose guitar people would want to use fingerings with left or right 
orientations in chords anyway.

Cheers,
Valentin

Am Montag, 21. Februar 2022, 17:47:58 CET schrieb Luca Fascione:
> I suspect we might be saying the same thing, Valentin?
> 
> I was saying infix can be a bit awkward if you want 'pianist' chord
> fingering (just a stack of numbers above or below), and that your original
> <c d g>-1-2-3 reads quite nicely (as in: it's easy to see in your head what
> you will get in the engraving just by looking at the source). So a keyboard
> person wouldn't want to use infix, I don't think
> 
> Whereas a guitar person might find it more attractive to use <c-1 d-2 g-3>
> because it's easier to keep it straight in your head what fingers you use
> on what note that way
> 
> L
> 
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 5:42 PM Valentin Petzel <valentin@petzel.at> wrote:
> > No, not nescessarily. If we want all Fingerings on top or below there is
> > no real benefit of doing the chord thing. In fact doing that leads to the
> > exact same issue of the fingering for d being next to the other ones.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Valentin
> > 
> > 21.02.2022 12:38:40 Luca Fascione <l.fascione@gmail.com>:
> > 
> > But wouldn't you finger that as <c-1 d-2 g-3>? (Didn't check the number,
> > I'm just meaning going infix vs postfix)
> > 
> > I can see that this idea of mine does have issues for fingering your way
> > around (which seems to me it's more of a fingering atop thing, like you
> > would have in a keyboard score)
> > 
> > L
> > 
> > On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, 12:32 Valentin Petzel, <valentin@petzel.at> wrote:
> >> Hello Luca,
> >> 
> >> changing the X-parent to the NoteHead would mean that we are aligning the
> >> Fingering horizontally wrt. the NoteHead instead of the whole NoteColumn.
> >> This
> >> would then mean that if for example due to some chord some note heads are
> >> on
> >> the other side of the Stem the alignment of something like <c d g>-1-2-3
> >> would
> >> change (disregarding that it wouldn’t even be clear what note head to
> >> use).
> >> 
> >> Cheers,
> >> Valentin
> >> 
> >> Am Montag, 21. Februar 2022, 09:19:30 CET schrieb Luca Fascione:
> >> > Hi Thomas,
> >> > thanks for your comment, this helps me refine my understanding of
> >> 
> >> what's
> >> 
> >> > going on.
> >> > 
> >> > At the same time, while I do see that for other articulations (fermata,
> >> > appoggiato) this parenting scheme works very well,
> >> > I remain wondering whether for the style of layout of the fingering
> >> > indications that I am after, the appropriate thing to do could be to
> >> 
> >> change
> >> 
> >> > the parenting altogether.
> >> > 
> >> > If we look at chord for a second, I see the <one-note-chord> thing as a
> >> > trick because to me even for proper chords the whole FingeringColumn
> >> 
> >> idea
> >> 
> >> > is also a weird concept: imagine you're in say C major, and you're
> >> 
> >> laying
> >> 
> >> > out fingering on the left of a chord like Fm <f aes c'>: I'm very
> >> 
> >> unclear
> >> 
> >> > whether the most readable solution is to have the fingerings stacked
> >> 
> >> one
> >> 
> >> > atop each other in a column (thereby more distant from f and c because
> >> 
> >> of
> >> 
> >> > the intervening flat on the aes) or if instead the fingerings on f and
> >> 
> >> c
> >> 
> >> > should be set tighter to their corresponding note heads and just the
> >> 
> >> aes
> >> 
> >> > fingering be displaced left horizontally, to allow for the flat. I
> >> 
> >> would
> >> 
> >> > like to experiment with various possibilities there, visually. I
> >> 
> >> suppose
> >> 
> >> > you could still displace horizontally inside the column, and then push
> >> 
> >> it
> >> 
> >> > all inwards closer to the chord even if the bboxes will overlap a
> >> 
> >> bit... I
> >> 
> >> > anticipate issues such as making sure the fingering for c' doesn't
> >> > interfer with the ascender on the flat glyph, also.
> >> > 
> >> > Which brings me to a question: what consequence would it have to
> >> 
> >> replace
> >> 
> >> > the X-parent and Y-parent of the fingering to be the NoteHead instead?
> >> > (I guess there will be a need to deal with the accidentals at a
> >> 
> >> minimum)
> >> 
> >> > And also: how would I go at discovering these consequences without
> >> 
> >> using
> >> 
> >> > too much of you guys' time?
> >> > 
> >> > Thanks again,
> >> > Luca
> >> > 
> >> > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 1:22 AM Thomas Morley
> >> > <thomasmorley65@gmail.com>
> >> > 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > Am So., 20. Feb. 2022 um 22:41 Uhr schrieb Luca Fascione <
> >> > > 
> >> > > l.fascione@gmail.com>:
> >> > > >  a) I'm looking for a way to get the fingerings where I want them
> >> > > >  without
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > using one-note-chord tricks
> >> > > 
> >> > > Well, for Fingerings not in chord, like b-1 or <b dis'>-2-1 X-parent
> >> > > is NoteColumn _not_ NoteHead, Y-parent  is VerticalAxisGroup.
> >> > > There is no direct way from NoteHead to Fingering and vice versa.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Thus putting Fingering in-chord is unavoidable, imho, even for single
> >> > > notes.
> >> > > It is _not_ a trick, but a requirement.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Furthermore, you say you set music for classical guitar, then chords
> >> > > will happen anyway, although not in your example.
> >> > > Please note, as soon as more than one in-chord Fingering is present a
> >> > > FingeringColumn is created. Which will make things even more
> >> > > complicated.
> >> > > See
> >> > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/6125
> >> > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/732
> >> > > 
> >> > > Sorry to be of not more help,
> >> > > 
> >> > >   Harm

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