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Re: [Phpgroupware-users] Who develops phpGroupWare?

From: Dave Hall
Subject: Re: [Phpgroupware-users] Who develops phpGroupWare?
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:14:32 +0000 (GMT)

Hi Ralf (and lists)

Before I get into this too much, let me say this.  I think you have done
a lot for the project.  I have also enjoyed meeting you, and am
extremely grateful for the lengths you went to when I stayed with you.

I would also like to say that I am still very angry about the current
situation.  If anyone does not like reading public fihgts - delete this now.

Now for my response - I have counted to 50

Ralf Becker <address@hidden> wrote:

> I hoped my last reply would be last one of this thread, but I can't 
> let 
> these lies and attacs agains me personaly stand there with out an 
> answer.

I had hoped arranging a GNU server would have been the end of this, but
hey I am not a mind reader.

> Dave Hall wrote:
> > Ralf Becker <address@hidden> wrote:
> >>Dave Hall wrote:
> >>I have no idea who made you the "captain of the footballteam", as 
> >>far as I know the elections have not taken part so far,
> >>or have they been postponed in favor of a proclamation.
> > 
> > I am claiming to be captian of the team.  I am happy to be on the 
> team.>  I was getting us a GNU server up as soon as possible.
> I guess that's a typo and your not realy claiming that.

Yep, typo.

> >>I'm not interested in a captains position, 
> > 
> > Really?  Don't kid yourself.  I remember some long phone calls 
> and IRC
> > chats with you before the leadership "discussion".  We both know you
> > want a leadership position, that is fine, but don't claim you 
> don't, or
> > play little power games.
> Captain is - in my understanding - the head of the team and far 
> from 
> being a democratic position, I never said I'm interested in that, 
> nor do 
> I do so now.
> Everthing else is simply a lie!

Truth, Fact, Honest, False, Fiction, Lie - they can all be different
interpretations of the same event or thing.  

> I always said, I want a position in that coordination team and I 
> favor 
> to be responsible for the API as this is where my interest is.
> Not a speaker or "captain" as want to make people believe.

I still do not understand your definition of democracy - it seems to be
a word you use when you don't get your own way.  As I said off list,
democracy is not perfect, it involves compromise.

> > I think your timing was very dodgy.  We both know that more has been
> > going on in private chat and off list emails - don't kid yourself 
> Ralf.>  You want a piece of the infrastructure pie, as you think it 
> would give
> > you some power or something.  At every opportunity you want to 
> use "the
> > Toshiba box" for the website.  
> This is because I think I have to stick to my word and not change 
> it 
> just because it's no longer opportun.
> You self supported the idea of getting an own server, when the fork 
> disscussion came up. We (Reiner, Lars and I) went on our own 
> expenses to 
> the CeBit and negoiated that box with Toschiba and RedHat.

I have always supported having a high end developer's sandpit box - for
dev and testing on environemts that some of us could never get close to.

Also have also supported us having the Toshiba box.  If we had have
forked I would have supported the Tosh box hosting our website.  I think
the purpose of the box needs to be worked out.  Also would like to see a
copy of the rubber conditions attached to the box, in writing (or
PDF)from RH or Toshiba - so we all know where we stand.

I have come to Europe at my own expense - does that give me more rights?
 I don't claim this to be the case.  I think everyone involved in the
project had made sacrifices and has incurred costs.

> I understand, and think Toschiba and RH too, that we have to meet 
> the 
> terms of the compromise we made with seek3r (transfering the 
> domain to the FSF).

That was not the compromise reached.  Here is the list item which show
the compromise position.  This was discussed with all involved at the
time.  See

There was no objection then - only about once a month, you want to
reopen the issue.

> On the other hand we as a 
> project 
> should feel responsible for the word we given to sponsors and try 
> to 
> arrange something to make them happy too. As I talked with eg. ceb 
> yesterday a compromise could be to move the demos and a european 
> mirror 
> of the website to the toschiba box. This costs us nothing and let 
> us 
> stick to our word.

I am happy for the mirror - and a set of demos to be on the tosh box. 
But www, docs and apps must be hosted on the GNU box - this is what
constitutes our website in my mind.  

Also when you (Reiner and Lars) gave that commitment to Toshiba/RH, you
had no recognised position of authority within the project - so you may
never have been able to keep your word.

> > You have even suggested that moving to a GNU box is just an 
> interim solution.
> We had a lengthy discussion on that one - in short: my 
> understanding of 
> controlling is owning the domain and not owning the box. But I 
> learned 
> now that is different for other people. Fine.

See my point above.  There were 2 issues, domain and hosting - both were
to be done thru the FSF.

> > Ralf be up front with the users.  Don't make it seem like you are 
> trying> to be good guy in all of this - you have other agendas.
> I am upfront and open with everyone and I dont have hidden agendas.
> I would wish you would be honest too - and not start makeing up 
> things 
> to support your position. If you still think they are not just made 
> up, 
> you should proof them.

See above - I could also try going thru my mailbox too - there would be
a few private emails that might support my case here too - but that
would be childish.

> >>I hope that helps to clearfy things and to calm down all of us.
> >>
> >>Lets start talking again ...
> > 
> > I am sick of talking about bs.  Lets move forward.  We always get 
> stuck> talking crap.
> I still stick to what I said in the last reply and I dont think 
> talking 
> is bullshit.
> For my understanding talking is the only possebility to solve that 
> issue 
> in the projects and everones best interest. I don't consider 
> produceing 
> mails to the lists as talking, as it only makes things worse and 
> not 
> calms them down.

What makes things worse is people playing little factional games behind
the scenes.

We have talked enough about the server!  How many times do you want to
discuss the issue.  Just be grateful someone fix the problem!

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