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Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole

From: Marcin Borkowski
Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:08:16 +0200
User-agent: mu4e 0.9.16; emacs

On 2016-07-06, at 17:42, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:

>> From: Marcin Borkowski <address@hidden>
>> Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
>> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200
>> On 2016-07-06, at 16:27, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >> From: Marcin Borkowski <address@hidden>
>> >> Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
>> >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:57:16 +0200
>> >> 
>> >> >> On 2016-07-02, at 12:07, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> > You are missing the point.  The point is how much of the basic
>> >> >> > functionality one needs to master before they can use a single 
>> >> >> > feature
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> As I said, in case of Org, next to none.
>> >> >
>> >> > That is false (I do use Org seriously).
>> >> 
>> >> No, it isn't.
>> >> 
>> >> In order to start to use outlining (one feature) you only need to know
>> >> how to mark up headlines (bol + stars + space + title) and how to use
>> >> TAB to cycle visibility.
>> >
>> > If I need only outlining, I don't need Org, I can use the Outline
>> > mode.  We are talking about features that are in Org and only in Org.
>> >
>> > Come on, let's be serious in this discussion!
>> Sorry, Eli, but I can say the same.  Be serious.  As I wrote:
>> > I covered more than half a dozen extremely useful features
>> and you commented on _one_ of them.  And mentioning Outline mode in
>> a discussion on _ease of use_ as an alternative of Org is kind of
>> strange.
> It wasn't a discussion on ease of use.  Look back.  It was a
> discussion of how much of the mode one needs to learn before one
> becomes productive with one feature the mode provides.  You said: next
> to none, and gave outlining as the example.  To which I responded that
> outlining alone doesn't justify using Org at all, as there are simpler
> alternatives.

Well, this discussion is like Org-mode itself: it is about many
things. ;-)

Still, I did not "gave outlining as an example": I gave outlining as
_one of eight examples_.  And you have yet to give an example a "simpler
alternative" to Org's outlining, since Outline mode is not one.  Indeed,
AFAIR, one of the first motivations for Org was that Outline mode had
a terrible UI.  See here: https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM?t=353 (3-4
minutes is enough to see what I mean).

>> Compared to Org, Outline mode is almost unusable wrt visibility
>> cycling.  Yes, it has more capabilities, but it also has an order of
>> magnitude more commands to remember!
> Remembering commands is not an issue when you use a mode frequently
> enough, or infrequently enough.

But introducing something like 6 or 8 commands where one is enough is
grossly inefficient, both for the user's (muscle) memory and for the
limited set of convenient keybindings.


Marcin Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

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