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Re: Changes for emacs 28

From: tomas
Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 09:37:13 +0200
User-agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 12:20:08AM +0200, Ergus wrote:
> There will be never an agreement about changing defaults with long
> standing users.

So we use your preferences?

>(I can't understand the strong feeling about that
> because some/most of the choices we have today were actually determined
> by historic/technological conditions more than user preferences)

And yours are better than other's ;-P

Sorry for being a bit sarcastic. It's not with the intention to hurt:
I know you're well-intentioned, but if you think about it, discussions
about defaults are bound to end like this, at least in a community as
diverse as Emacs's is (show me another piece of software which is (a)
user-oriented and (b) alive for over 30 years).

There are several reactions to this (recurring) "Hey, let's change the
world, because, you know, Emacs is Old (TM)". You now have seen a couple
of them. Most old folks who are happy with how things work now just
sigh and say "well, as long as I can disable it -- go ahead". This,
of course, ignores that there's a price to pay: fragmented experience.
Of course, with a highly customizable thing as Emacs is, there'll
always be some of that, but it costs something (like asking for help
on copy-paste and getting blank stares, or being told to do C-v (is
this on Apple/Microsoft-themed Ergus-Emacs, where it means "paste",
or in "Classic", where it means "scroll down"?.

It's clear that one has to pay part of that price. But how much? That
can only be found by trying to find a consensus, since it is a collective
price to pay.

So please: as important as those ideas are, consider those points:

1. there are people perfectly happy with the current defaults.
  And they are happy for a reason -- sometimes for a *good*
  reason. Just assumeng that they are "resistant to change"
  can feel insulting.

2. "anyone can coustomize its own Platonic cave" is a solution
  just up to a certain point. Finding this equilibrium (which
  tends to shift over time) is something a long-lived project
  has to do (and is doing) anyway all of the time.

So your best way forward is, as someone else (I think it was Eli)
proposed in this thread is to discuss each potential default change

Alternatively, you could offer your new "world vision" as an ELPA
package for people to try out: no need to wait for the next version.

Then, as a more radical approach, you might try to fork Emacs.
This sounds harsh, but a friendly fork can be enriching, too.

-- t

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