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RE: Context menus and mouse-3 [was: Changes for emacs 28]

From: Ergus
Subject: RE: Context menus and mouse-3 [was: Changes for emacs 28]
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 00:47:38 +0200
User-agent: K-9 Mail for Android

On September 15, 2020 10:33:51 PM GMT+02:00, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> 
>> > read `Mouse Commands' if you haven't
>> > already, and give it a try.
>> Mouse support is poor in Emacs, this is the reason
>> why I don't use the mouse in Emacs.
>I disagree that mouse support is poor in Emacs.
So you are the only one I know so far with that opinion.

>I use a mouse in several other applications much
>of the workday, and Emacs mouse support is superior
>in every respect I'm aware of.  But I'm no expert
>on the use of mice.  And perhaps the mouse support
>in the apps I use is not a reference.
This is the same problem than undo-redo. Maybe the features are actually better 
technically speaking or to whom knows all the tricks and trains himself for 
years; but it worth nothing if the users feel uncomfortable or don't values 
some of the details that justify complexity in others. (Like hiding the context 
panel with a control or not having a redo button or not deleting the selection) 
Or just don't need them.

There are some "standards" in mouse interaction determined/imposed by most of 
the gui programing interfaces from visual studio or java to qt5 and gtk. The 
developers of all the aplications have been following them for years and most 
of the user are used to them.

So this is the "dilema". Or we change a bit (1 binding) to ease the user 
experience and learning curve OR we expect that all the potential users change 
their expectations, trainings and don't go to any other editor but use emacs 
because we pretend we offer a better functionality that they are not aware of 
and most probably don't need or never learn/use because is complex to remember.

>> > Double-click (`mouse-1') on a word, then click
>> > `mouse-3' on another word. The selection picks up
>> > whole words, from the first through the last you
>> > clicked.
>> In other apps, the same is achieved by double-click
>> (`mouse-1') on a word, then double-click the same
>> (`mouse-1') on another word while holding down the Shift key.
>And that's better why?  Having to use both the
>keyboard and the mouse?
Usually the other hand is already in the keyboard and close to a shift. 
Comparing, our approach of moving the mouse to the toolbar to copy after the 
selection is probably less efficient than anything else or the fact that M-w 
and C-y dont share any key like C-c/C-v or that we need the two hand to undo 
instead of C-z. All these are less efficient too but we are used to them.

So the argument of holding a shift seems a bit weak for any old emacs user 

>(One of the arguments made by a few people in
>this discussion was that `C-mouse-3' makes you
>do that to get a right-click menu.)
No, the argument is also that many applications intercept that C-mouse action, 
in terminal doesn't work AND the user don't expect it to be there because 
probably we are one of the few (or the only) hiding the panel there after a 

>> > Triple-click a line, then click `mouse-3' on
>> > another line.  The selection picks up whole lines.
>> In other apps, triple-click a line, then again triple-click
>> on another line while holding down the Shift key.
>Both keyboard and mouse again.  Better?  Not IMO.
But just the same button-1 so yes, probably simpler to remember and intuitive 
for any office (or other modern editor) user.

>> But what if you need first to select a line, then extend
>> the selection to a word?  In other apps, triple-click a line,
>> then double-click `mouse-1' on a word while holding down the Shift
>> In Emacs, this is impossible.
>Granted.  But again, both keyboard and mouse.
And again, they are the same, mouse-1 and shift, so exactly the sames... This 
is a pattern. Select with mouse-1 actions in panel in mouse-3 move with the 

Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.

The emacs approach with mouse is indeed complicated.

>We could provide a keyboard + mouse combination
>for such use cases if that were a common need.
>> Also in other apps Shift+F10 opens the context menu,
>> but why not in Emacs?
>That's orthogonal.  Nothing prevents also having
>a keyboard key sequence to open a context menu.
>(Presumably the "location" it refers to would
>be point.)
There is the <print> key which many applications use to show the panel from 
keyboard too.

>The impetus for this discussion was expectations
>of new users to get a context menu on `mouse-3'.
>(But newbies are not the only reason for such a
>> > [I'd like to see the double-clicking extended, so
>> > that if you double-click a paren in Lisp it picks
>> > up the full sexp, and if you then `mouse-3' another
>> > sexp it picks up full sexps in the interval.  But
>> > this is a bit trickier.]
>> It would be easier to use this as: double-click a paren to select
>> a sexp, then double-click another paren to select another sexp
>> while holding down the Shift key.
>Another keyboard + mouse mix.
>[What I described already works for simple cases, BTW.
>E.g. double-click a paren in Lisp (open or close),
>then `mouse-3' another paren, to select up the lists
>and intervening sexps.]

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