Re: GNUstep roadmap (was Re: [Suggestion] GNUstep-test for qualitycontrol)

[stefan]

Hi,

first, to give my 2 cents: i use GNUstep because it is something that is
totally different from anything else that is available for Linux/BSD/...
I like the way it allows me work with my machine. And, of course, i like
the development environemnt. Objective-C is a cool language and the
framework is easy to use and provides exactly what is needed to (quickly)
build the applications i want. Of course, there may be quite some bugs,
but that's another thing ... What i want to say: if i would like to use
KDE or GNOME, i would do so. I can really see no reason why GNUstep should
be integrated with these environments, that are IMHO mainly clones of
windows. So i think it's better to put the effort in improving GNUstep and
writing apps then trying to integrate it into something else.



>> To me GNUstep is a development environment, and with that comes the
>> trouble. If you want a real user friendly, crossplatform environment
>> you need to supply the tools for the developer.
>
> That's exactly my opinion.
>
>
>> There is also the legacy of NeXT and the mirror we keep on looking in
>> called MacOSX.
>
> Well, as long as Gnustep is an OpenStep implementation and OpenStep was
> defined by NeXT…

What else should it be? OpenStep is a great API from my point of view
(ever programmed java swing?).

>> One of the biggest things I have seen emerge from/for GNUstep is
>> Renaisance. I think this is/could be the real "pro" of GNUstep
>> compared to other development platforms.
>
> Rennaissance is great, but doesn't make the difference. Unfortunately.
The difference IMHO is, that Rennaisance abstracts the user interface
in the way that it does not make assumptions of eg. what the widgets looks
like. So you can have many "Rennaisance rendering engines" for the platforms
you want to support (KDE, if it need be).


>> The real issue here is trying to let go on the "stick to NeXT" and "Oh
>> MacOSX has" ideas.
>
> I don't agree. I actually think exactly the opposite. MOSX is the main
> source for new members of Gnustep. Apple brought Objective-C and Cocoa
> (a "extended2 OpenStep) to the broad public. Many people heard for the
> first time of Gnustep, through Cocoa. A lot of interest in Gnustep is
> due to being crossplatform MOSX->Linux->Windows. So by not following
> MOSX, we loose one major platform. We would be much less
> cross-platform, except, if we implement and maintain the whole Gnustep
> again on yet another platform. But then, where do we get the manpower?

Well, my opinion is to keep looking and MacOSX but not in a way like
"GNUstep must have what MacOSX has". If there are any good or revolunitary
ideas that are not in MOSX or NeXT, they definitly should go into GNUstep.

>
>> To summon things up:
>> Create a tightly integrated development environment aimed at being
>> crossplatform. This means you have to create a "self contained"
>> environment.
>> - GNUstep should have it's own Window Manager (preferably integrated
>> into the backend).
>> - GNUstep should have a file browser
>> - GNUstep should have a URL browser (http/ftp/...)
>> - GNUstep should have a helpsystem (man/info/class browser)
>> - GNUstep should have a code editor
>> - GNUstep should have a project manager (and documentation tool)
>> - GNUstep should have a GUI builder
>> - Create a stable backend, which contains everything that is needed to
>> make it work.
>
> I don't see why this must be necessary built by our own, in order to
> build cross-platform software? If others have built such tools, why not
> use them? Or complete, what is missing?

Because the stuff that others wrote (KDevelop for example) is totatlly
different from GNUstep. I think a good KDevelop-GNUstep integration takes
more time than improving ProjectCenter/Gorm. Again: i use GWorkspace
because i do not like Konqueror with it's overbloated interface that tries
to do
everything (thats just my opinion). And i think the main reason for using
GNUstep is that it is different and provides another (better?) way to work
with the machine (at least, thats my vision).


>> - The development apps should be aimed at being crossplatform. Use
>> Renaisance (sorry Gregory)
>
> Of course.
>
>
>> I feel GNUstep should not aim at integration with other environments
>> right now. Let's stay our own island in the sea. And build the best
>> development environment around. The applications will come.
>
> The applications will not come! Or, if they come, they will come much
> too late and with much lower quality (though built with the greates
> libraries). Try to catch up e. g. to something like Mozilla or
> Konqueror, writing your own using only Gnustep(derived) tools! I'd say
> two man-years at least. Do we have that manpower? And is it worth the
> little difference to the others? (And in the meantime, the others will
> have advanced again).

I think they will come. I started writing apps because i to work with an
Openstep complient framework and because GNUstep has the need for apps. I
think we should not care too much about manpower, there are many good
things
on the way currently.

<snip>

greetings
Stefan