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Re: Cocotron

From: Matt Rice
Subject: Re: Cocotron
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:49:13 -0800 (PST)

--- Helge Hess <address@hidden> wrote:

> On Dec 23, 2006, at 20:32, Richard Frith-Macdonald
> wrote:
> > I very strongly agree with that ... it always
> saddens me to see  
> > people re-inventing what GNUstep already does and
> duplicating  
> > effort rather than joining in.
> I can't follow that, it sounds like everyone is
> re-inventing GNUstep  
> all the time. Which isn't the case. There is just
> one new project  
> which popped up, and apparently also has a focus
> which GNUstep just  
> doesn't have (Windows deployment).
> In fact a two or so years ago I suggested to work
> together which was  
> rejected by GNUstep. Replace libFoundation with
> gnustep-base, gnustep- 
> web with SOPE-appserver, SOPE-imap with GNUmail,
> etc. Eliminate DUPs.
> Fact is that GNUstep also won't let go for better
> alternatives due to  
> individual, personal reasons ... IMHO GNUstep at
> least appears to be  
> much more religious/uncooperative here than any
> other people in the  
> same sector. Possibly because more people with
> vastly diverging  
> expectations are involved.

just figured i would post a link to the thread i
believe you are referring to here


it seems to be an offshoot of a thread started on
GSWHackers and the archive for that list doesn't go
back to 2004

from what i read, there was some personal differences
and what not, but a large problem was the copyright
assignment issue

there was some discussion at the end about a 

kits.gnustep.org for non-FSF assigned copyright
since this thread theres been a project on gna created
for non-assigned code (albeit currently empty)


anyhow if people are adamant about maintaining their
FSF copyright assigned code or their own copyrighted
code a change of venue won't really achieve much
besides a change of venue...

as much as i hate to say it GNUstep's catch all
tendancy doesn't seem to be helping resolve these
issues, and this has little if anything to do with
cocotron, but

i'm not sure what is hindering you from replacing
SOPE-imap with GNUMail/Pantomime, and i'm not actually
sure if GNUMail is even copyright assigned to the FSF
it doesn't say Copyright (c) ... Free Software
Foundation anywhere... 

so i'm wondering if project cohesion is reducing
collaboration in this case, because GSWeb and
SOPE-appserver cannot get along is that hindering
progress replacing libFoundation with gnustep-base,

it seems possible, definitely the more people involved
the complicated communication becomes, because of the
different stakeholders and their individual

or alternately if GSWeb and GNUstep core were
you might have issues with the GSWeb and still be able
to maintain a 'healthy relationship' with core.

i should point out i'm not pointing any fingers at
GSWeb specifically it seems to be an instance of a
larger problem, similar issues come up with those
wanting it to be a desktop and those wanting a set of
core libraries 

now i'm not sure if/how much any of this cohesion is
caused by project accessibility, is GSWeb and core
under the GNUstep project umbrella because we as the
umbrella haven't done a good enough job making outside
projects using GNUstep core easily accessible?

so if we could make the GNUstep umbrella a separate
project entirely, which could have some specific
objectives a few come to mind like

help secure permanent hosting if needed for free
software projects using the GNUstep core
make easily accessible projects which fall under the
GNUstep umbrella
maintain a neutral stance regarding competing software
projects though promoting collaboration

so with something like this in place, maybe we could
collaborate more, by being able to keep disagreements
and religious issues isolated to their respective
projects, and prevent them reflecting upon GNUstep as
a whole and hindering potential for further


> I think it basically comes down to the fact that the
> work is being  
> done by volunteers. Which prefer doing their own
> stuff in their free  
> time. Eg why would I bother about code formatted in
> that ridiculous  
> GNU coding style in my freetime! (just kidding ;-)
> > However, my impression is that unfortunately the
> reason is often  
> > either religious differences over
> licensing/copyright
> This was fun :-) Given that *GNU*step itself only
> exists because of  
> this :-)
> Anyways, Oliver Langer wanted to run a session on
> precisely this  
> topic on FOSDEM :-) So I suppose we should defer
> discussion till then.
> Greets,
>    Helge
> -- 
> Helge Hess
> http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/

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