Re: [Gnu-arch-users] Re: Re: community spirit

[Jacob Gorm Hansen]

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > > > > > "Jacob" == Jacob Gorm Hansen <address@hidden> writes:
>
>
>     Jacob> It seems to me that at least a handfull of these deps [of
>     Jacob> evolution] could have been avoided, by proper engineering.
>
> Well, if you define "proper engineering" == "omitting features that
> jacobg will never use", sure, you could probably get rid of a dozen or
> so packages.  Personally, I'd start by eliminating Evolution. ;-)

Sure, or just load them if installed, omit them if not. Call dlopen() 
instead of specifying -l to the linker.

> But in general, dependency == reuse of a module, which in some circles
> in considered an important element of "proper engineering".  I assume
> that's not news to you!

No not at all, but I am sure there are cases where people use python 
just to call a python-wrapped shared library, instead of taking out a 
few hours to figure how to just call the shared library directly. Too 
much software is just assumed production-ready when its really only at 
the prototype stage.

>     Jacob> The only clear winner here is Dell. And perhaps Microsoft,
>     Jacob> who can afford to do proper software engineering.
 > Mutt + fetchmail + nvi is a pretty effective mail installation and
> probably still fits on a floppy if bzipped, but do people want that?
> No, they want bloated mail clients like Evolution and Thunderbird.

Users want stuff with simple and self-explanatory UIs, which is fair 
because even though Evolution and Thunderbird are bloated, they are 
simpler to access than mutt, since you have to remember fewer magical 
key combos, and you can view attachments inline.

I don't blame users, but the programmers still have work to do.

> I have to conclude that apt and rpm are big wins for the majority of
> users, and do little harm to those of us who don't like the bloat.

The tools are great, its the sloppiness that results from the reliance 
upon them that bothers me. I remember the days when you could install 
software just by fetching a single rpm from a webpage, then came KDE 1.0 
with ~10 rpms, and its gone downhill from there, to the point where you 
need to copy&paste stuff into your /etc/apt/archives.list file to get 
anything installed, or just sit on your hands until someone uploads 
official debian packages (because the deps means few people will even 
attempt to compile stuff themselves).

Try installing rhythmbox by hand on a from-scratch distro. Then contrast 
that with installing xmms five years ago. The only thing new is that 
rhythmbox will probably crash on you more often.

Jacob