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Re: Is Emacs on Aqua crippleware or is it just broken?


From: Oliver Scholz
Subject: Re: Is Emacs on Aqua crippleware or is it just broken?
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:27:41 +0200
User-agent: Gnus/5.090019 (Oort Gnus v0.19) Emacs/21.3.50 (windows-nt)

address@hidden (BK) writes:

> Oliver Scholz <address@hidden> wrote ...
>
>> I would
>> spit fire and swearwords in every Emacs related mailing list, if Emacs
>> would ever get different defaults on different platforms.
>
> So, then what about an Emacs that cannot be quit by no matter what
> means no matter what flavours (other than using kill -9) ?
>
> Is that a reason to ask if it is a bug or a feature without getting
> flamed?

If an application doesn't provide a means to quit it other than with
kill -9, than that's a bug, no matter what. If an application does
not work as it is documented, then that's a bug, no matter what.

As I said, since obviously people are using Emacs on Mac OS, I guess:
either you have a version of Emacs on your plate that is somehow
b0rked for whatever reason. Or something went wrong with your
installation or configuration. The people using Emacs on the Mac OS
could possibly tell you, if they are still willing to do so.

You freely mixed serious problems with "HIG violations" as if they
were all equally grave and you were obnoxious enough to ask each time
"Bug or feature?" When Benjamin Riefenstahl told you which features
are working for him and supposed to work on the Mac OS and which ones
are not, which UI issues can be adressed etc. you had the guts to a)
tell him that you "give a damn about that excuse for an editor.", b)
ask him whether he thinks that you are a liar, when he told you that
the standard keyboard shortcuts do work (I thought that is what you
wanted to know?), c) started to promote another editor (in
gnu.emacs.help!).

As I said, this all makes sense only when I take it as the shout of
someone giving voice to his frustration. But gnu.emacs.help being a
technical newsgroup this is off topic here. The proper place for this
is alt.religion.emacs.

Look, let me provide a faked example post that would probably have
been well received.

----
Subject: Emacs on Mac OS not working properly

I tried to use Emacs on Mac OS X, but I have encountered several
problems which make it unusable for me. Not even some important
standard keybindings are working. For example C-y, so I can't even
paste text into an Emacs buffer. So I wonder whether Emacs has
actually been fully ported to the Mac OS. Are people using it on Mac
OS?

I am using Mac OS <exact version description> with GNU Emacs <exakt
version/port/toolkit>.

Besides the documented keyboard shortcuts not working there are
several issues that would expect working different.

* If drag a file icon on Emacs' application icon, I would expect
  Emacs to open this file. Unfortunately this doesn't work. Is it
  possible to change this?

* I would like to drag text snippets with the mouse from Emacs to
  other applications and vice versa. I am used to this, as it is
  possible with most Mac OS applications. Is this possible with Emacs?

* I can't cut or copy a text snippet in Emacs to the clipboard.

* I can not quit Emacs by selecting "Quit" in the applications main
  menu or the dock item. This seems like a serious bug to me. Is this
  supposed to work, so is there simply something wrong with Emacs on
  my system? As it seems I have to "force quit" Emacs, which is not
  exactly the way I would expect to close an application.

* Even if the standard Emacs shortcuts were working, I'd prefer to use
  C-x/C-c/C-v for cut/copy/pasted, as I am used to it. I could change
  the keybindings, but this seems rather inconvenient, especially
  since this would conflict with a lot of other keybindings in
  Emacs. Is there a better way to deal with this?

* How do I change the size of the font?

----

I probably made it a bit more polite than would have been absolutely
necessary (my impression is that you get more and better help, if you
are polite; but you still have a chance if you are not quite so
polite, as long as you don't behave really rude). The most important
change is that I turned it into a *practical* question: How do I make
Emacs work the way I expect it to work? Is it possible? What you
posted was a list of HIG violations (with two real issues mixed under)
and you concluded every lawsuit of HIG violations with the obnoxious
question "Bug or feature?" -- "non compos mentis or crime?" -- "Is
Emacs on Mac OS non compos mentis or is it just a wicked criminal?"

> You are riding on this cut and paste thing like you didn't read my
> post. You ignore the fact that no pasting works no matter whether I
> try the Mac method or the Emacs method. I can't quite seem to fathom
> why you choose to ignore this vital fact which is the centre of the
> problem that led me to post here and ask. If I was nasty I would
> either assume you chose to ignore this because you are only interested
> in flaming and taking the "Emacs flavoured pasting doesn't work
> either" part would spoil your fun, or because your attention span
> while reading is severely handicapped. 

No need to insult me. However, you made up seven lawsuits. I count two
of them as severe. But undistinguished from the important stuff there
was the keybinding stuff labelled as "HIG violation" right below the
quitting problem, equally labeled as "HIG violation".

Now I picked the keybinding stuff and only the keybinding stuff. When
you start a thread Usenet, it doesn't belong to you, you know. The
keybinding tune is heard once in a while in gnu.emacs.help and
everytime it is played to the same chords. It was this issue and only
this issue which I adressed.

To be honest: even if I would have been able to help you and even if
I had any desire left to help you after your OP, I lost it after I
read your response to Benjamin Riefenstahl. You would have had to
convince me again, that it is in any sense rewarding to help you.

BTW: At least two persons (three if I include my humble self) have
already pointed out that they regard your post as insulting, rude or
at least impolite. One of them is the maintainer of the Mac OS port,
i. e. the person that is probably the most able one to help
you. Doesn't this raise any doubt that--to say the least--your wording
was not well chosen and that there was--to say the least--a
misunderstanding?

Well, yes, I picked "the cut and paste thing". And what did you? Did
you tell me that it is not such an important thing in your first
reply? That you wouldn't care so much about it, if kill&yank worked at
all? No, you confirmed the importance of C-x/C-c/C-v.

It was that to which I responded. Not to your OP. And I took it as an
opportunity to point out that the "weirdness" of Emacs' UI goes deeper
than keybindings. If keybindings and "No Drag and Drop - text
snippets" are worth to be mentioned in a line with 'can not quit' and
'important documented functionality does not work at all', then you
will not like Emacs, no matter what.

> So, far I have given you the benefit of the doubt and I am sure
> other people who read this thread have, too. But the more you keep
> walking on such thin ice the less likely you will receive the
> benefit of doubt any further.

Thank you very much for your patience so far.

> I don't give a damn about whether or not Emacs should allow HIG
> conformant pasting [...]

Well, you don't "give a damn about that excuse for an editor".

[...]
> Well, I have been working for extended periods of time in foreign
> countries and unless I know I will leave with in a short time, I
> always expect myself and other foreigners I work with who are also
> there for extended periods of time to pick up local customs and the
> local language.
[...]

That's fine. But this is gnu.emacs.help, a Usenet community with its
own customs and its own idea of what is regarded as "good manners".

Hic Rhodos, hic salta!

[...]
> Mind you, I didn't post to gnu.emacs.advocacy, but to gnu.emacs.help
[...]

And that was wrong.

We don't have gnu.emacs.advocacy, but we sometimes use
alt.religion.emacs for that.

This has the problem that flame wars have to stay interesting or funny
or else they are buried in jokes aluding to the "Emacs religion". But
one might consider this as a feature.

I set a Follow-up to alt.religion.emacs in my first post to this
particular subthread. If you hadn't ignored it, we would discuss this
now in the proper forum.

    Oliver
-- 
18 Floréal an 211 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!


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