Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Libre Business for the Planet

[Logan Streondj]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 04:48:22PM +0100, Thomas HARDING wrote:
> On 12/03/2015 12:25, Logan Streondj wrote:
> >On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:25:39PM +0100, Thomas HARDING wrote:
> >>On 11/03/2015 18:09, Logan Streondj wrote:
> >>>here it is in the 6 UN langauges,
> >>>plus mwak which is the pivot language:
> >>>
> >>>eng : be say ob tha hello world ya
> >>>zho : 世界 您好 之 对象 说 是 啊
> >>>spa : ser decir ob que hola mundo sí
> >>>ara : يكون قول أوب ثا مرحبا عالم يا
> >>>rus : быть сказать о то привет мир да
> >>>fra : être dire ob que bonjour monde ya
> >>A human comprehensive French sentence would be :
> >>
> >>  "Cet objet dit : « Bonjour au monde entier »."
> >actually that is a different statement, meaning:
> >this object says "hello to the entire world".
> I know "Hello world" for the most given string sample in any
> programming language tutorial.
> 
> Unfortunately EVEN THAT SIMPLE WORD "world" needs disambiguation
> while translated in
> French :

Yes, you are right,
so I've added in a definition for world, "people-group".

> 
> "Bonjour au monde !" (literally : Hello *to the* World!) would be
> the best effort,

I don't understand why you insist it must be *to the*,
I don't " say hello to the Thomas".  hello is not a verb,
it's a vocative preposition. like O lord, hey lord, hello lord,
all mean pretty much the same thing grammatically, with only minor
differences in tone formality.

> >which is different than "hello world" of course,
> >hello is a vocative preposition, there is no need for au,
> >just as I would say "bonjour Thomas", not "bonjour au Thomas"
> What I say is : even a chair will not translate every times as a
> chair. Moreover, a chair has no sense in
> some language becauses it simply not exists. That's why sometimes
> words travels unchanged between
> language ; and why sometimes they do "pong" between two languages
> while appearing new senses.

for natural languages perhaps,
but there are clear and simple definitions for SPEL,
though more thorough ones are eventually planned,
will be able to have picture books for children,
and flash cards for adults. 
for instance the translated word for chair, with a picture of a chair,
and perhaps a story or video involving a chair and it's uses. 

> >btw, it is a speakable programming language, so there is no
> >punctuation, for the input language anyways. the conjugated form can
> >have it.
> At least regarding French, that totally misses the point (a simple
> comma totally changes the mean
> of an entire sentence). 
yes, so without commas, that is not an issue, since all the former
commas are now distinct words. 

> Also, French rhythm and acute a whole
> sentence to places punctuation because
> *punctuation is mandatory to got the mean* :
> 
> "Tu as acheté du pain."
su thee be have buy of-the bread ya

(ya is a declarative sentence final particle)

> "Tu as acheté du pain ?"
su thee be have buy of-the bread eh?

(eh is an interrogative sentence final particle)

> "Tu as acheté du pain..."
skeptically su thee be have buy of the bread ya

(skeptically is in the mood place of the sentence)

> "Tu... as acheté du pain ?"
about su you be have buy of the bread eh?

(about indicates topic)

> "Tu as... acheté du pain"
about be have buy su thee of the bread ya


in this way, much greater precision and accuracy of translation can be
achieved. 

> More often subordinate clauses are not handled by any keyword but by
> the sentence "structure".

punctuation and sentence structure can be sufficient for the output
language, that is to be read by non-programmers. 
but for input programmers/translators it is important to have explicit
words for each concept

> Obviously, as far SMS language progresses, most French can guess a
> sentence without point :)

one of the complaints with SMS and information age in general
is lack of clarity, and meaning loss.

SPEL aims to make things both clear, and preserve meaning.
allowing to be as expressive as on phone or in person.

> >>
> >>Goal was to make students understands the "verb complements
> >>subjects" general syntax of shell commands,
> >>moreover to produce human comprehensive texts depending on gender,
> >>age, with for fallback ...the house dog;
> >not sure what you mean by that
> Quoting problem?
> 
> TIMTOWTDI, the "fall back to house dog" produced a "beep" series,
> instructing an hipotethic well-trained
> house dog running to the bakery barking for bread

okay, well how about, what were you trying to explain to your
students. "verb complements subject", what do you mean by that in
terms of unix commands?

> As said, even logic is different one (human) language other, and
> even concepts exists or not one language other.

formal logic is the same across languages.
all concepts can be expressed in an turing complete language,
most human languages are turing complete, certainly all the major
ones.
Though certainly it may take longer to say the same thing in one
langauge than another. 

> I'm unsure how productive would be a program compiling different
> while written in its French or English flavor,
> moreover if it won't compile at all.

assuming it is written in analytic (SPEL) input language, then it will
have the exact same results and translations.
A program could be written in Spanish, be edited in Japanese, and
tested in Indonesian.

> If just a keyword translation, just go ahead but you'll wont speak
> no more as "natural language". It simply cannot.

Since it follows linguistic universals, it can both be learned and
used as fluently as a natural language. 

> More : even if compiler disregards comments, you are pleased to
> write them (and it is mandatory to a software
> having human comprehensive code+comments to be a Free Software).

Yep, and assuming the comments are in an analytic variant, they also
can be translated. I've actually got a job request to do some javadoc
translation with SPEL.

> 
> >from Logan ya
> >
> TSFH.