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Re: [Savannah-hackers] submission of eev -

From: Jonathan Gonzalez V.
Subject: Re: [Savannah-hackers] submission of eev -
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:58:17 -0300
User-agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux)

Eduardo Nahum Ochs <address@hidden> writes:

Hi Eduardo,

I have approved your project as non-GNU.  You will receive an
automated e-mail containing detailed information about the approval.

We had sent an email to address@hidden to evaluate the
inclusion in the GNU project.


> Hi Jonathan,
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 09:36:56AM -0300, Jonathan Gonzalez V. wrote:
>> Hi eev,
>> I'm evaluating the project you submitted for approval in Savannah.
>> I reviewed your source code and some files have the Copyright and
>> License notices missing, and other have the License notices truncated,
>> consider to fix this. Keep in mind that any file with more than ten
>> lines long should carry on a Copyright and License notices. Maybe you
>> will want to choice the License notices for programs with more than
>> one file. In any case be sure to drop the text '(at your option)',
>> because you choice the GPL v2 or later in your license.
>> In order to learn more about the GNU GPL, consider to read the 'How
>> To' about it here:
>> To avoid any confusion about how to apply a proper Copyright and
>> License notices, consider to read these URLs too:
> I have fixed this. See below.
>> Can you give us more information about why your project cannot be
>> included in Emacs? and if you tried to include it on Emacs again.
> Long answer first, short answer next.
> In mid-2000 I met RMS after a talk he gave and we discussed eev a bit.
> He requested two modifications, besides the obvious ones, like
> docstrings, etc - 1) that eev were split in two or several parts
> according to different functionalities, and 2) that we added another
> interface besides executing explicit Lisp expressions, because "users
> should not be forced to see lisp". The first request looked very
> reasonable - though it took me years to find out that the split wasn't
> really possible, and why - but the second one kinda pissed me off,
> because _the_ thing that made me realize how much Free Software made
> sense, hot it was necessary, and how it made learning much simpler,
> was exactly the idea of including code in text without even needing
> special markup...
> So I reacted in a harsh way - and I was thinking that reacting in that
> way was OK in the context (because that was a very important technical
> issue, and I'm used to having heated technical discussions; also, I
> had a precise definition of "user" in mind, and it wasn't the usual
> one) but then RMS cut the conversation as if I was some kind of madman
> (which, btw, I was at that moment. I blame my own social skills). On
> returning home - very frustrated - I started to write a text called
> "Why Users Should Not Exist", comparing GUIs, Emacs, Unix+Expect,
> Forth, Macs and other interfaces, and several different attitudes on
> the part of "users" and "programmers" and several notions of what a
> computer is or can be.
> After that I started my grad studies and for several years I had
> almost no spare time... and I felt that using explicit Lisp wouldn't
> be the "Emacs way", so eev would have to exist in parallel with Emacs,
> as a totally different way of using Emacs, and I could only submit it
> again when I had, among other things, a good tutorial for Emacs+eev in
> which Lisp appeared very early... and now I almost have that, plus
> most of the other features that I planned.
> The short answer is: "there's nothing preventing eev from being
> included in Emacs". RMS had the objections I mentioned and Gerd
> Moellmann seemed favorable to its inclusion at the time. I just
> decided that I had to fix the zillions of problems that I saw on it
> before submitting it again. I would really like to have it included
> into Emacs. The first step now (as I see things) is to have it
> reviewed and accepted by the Savannah people. Then I'll re-subscribe
> to the Emacs mailing lists, announce it, and start to discuss it
> there.
>> If you are willing to make the changes mentioned above, please provide
>> us with an URL to an updated tarball of your project.  Upon review, we
>> will reconsider your project for inclusion in Savannah.
>> Regards,
>> > A package was submitted to
>> > This mail was sent to address@hidden, address@hidden
>> >
>> >
>> > Eduardo Ochs <address@hidden> described the package as follows:
>> > License: gpl
>> > Other License: 
>> > Package: eev
>> > System name: eev
>> > Type: GNU
>> >
>> > Description:
>> > Eev adds support for "e-scripts" in Emacs.
>> >
>> > A typical e-script is a plain text file containg bits of text and
>> > chunks of code intended to be interpreted by several different
>> > programs. There's no way to execute a whole e-script file at once;
>> > instead, the user interactively selects parts of it while he is
>> > editing the e-script in Emacs - these parts can be the current line,
>> > Emacs's "region", everything before and after the cursor until certain
>> > delimiters strings are found, etc -, and then asks Emacs to either
>> > execute those parts as Lisp code, or to save them into a temporary
>> > script file (to be run in a shell or in a shell-like program), or to
>> > send them immediately as input to some external program, or to process it
>> > in some other way; the underlying idea is that we should be able to
>> > "record" all kinds of
>> > textual interactions with the machine in e-scripts, in ways that will
>> > let us "play back" these interactions later - maybe with modifications
>> > - and to share them with other people. E-scripts may be a more
>> > powerful way to communicate actions and procedures than either
>> > finished programs or texts and how-tos, which usually describe most of
>> > the steps using human languages.
>> >
>> > Some of the actions that we can record are like hyperlinks, in a
>> > sense. For example: opening up a certain info node in the zsh
>> > documentation and searching for the first occurrence of the string
>> > "=(...)" - the elisp expression
>> >
>> >   (find-zshnode "Process Substitution" "=(...)")
>> >
>> > does the job, and note that you can even put that, say, inside a
>> > comment in a block of shell commands; code for a language can appear
>> > inside code for another language - and so we don't need to quote portions
>> > of external texts inside an e-script; instead, we can point directly to the
>> > original sources. Eev defines many kinds of "hyperlinks" like these: for
>> > text files, for info manuals, for manpages, for ps/pdf/dvi/html files, for
>> > the output of shell commands, for Emacs's own source code in Lisp or in C,
>> > for Debian packages, for images, and a few others.
>> >
>> > The current URL for eev (both source and documentation) is
>> > <>.
>> >
>> >
>> > Other Software Required:
>> > Emacs, Expect.
>> >
>> > Other Comments:
>> > The copyright of eev has already been assigned to the FSF - since 1999 or
>> > 2000. It almost became a part of Emacs at that time, but there were some
>> > technical (not legal) issues that had to be resolved. Then I spent several
>> > years too busy with real-world things :( and I'm only returning to its
>> > development with full force now.
> Here it is: the new tarball is at this url (I'll create a new numbered
> version soon):
>   <>
> and I'm attaching below the notes that I took as I went through the
> files. Maybe they'll be useful and make your task less boring. :)
> --snip--snip--
> (code-c-d "gnumaintain" "$S/http/")
> (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html")
> (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "program files")
> (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "small program")
> (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "Documentation files")
> (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "Small supporting files")
> 0 - doesn't have and shouldn't need a license (too short or too trivial)
> PD - public domain
> GNU - GPL: (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "program files")
> VTIM - may only be copied verbatim
> license(): the license is in an accompanying file in the same dir
> SSF: (find-gnumaintainw3m "License-Notices.html" "Small supporting files")
>   Copying and distribution of this file, with or without modification,
>   are permitted in any medium without royalty provided the copyright
>   notice and this notice are preserved.
> SSF-: SSF with a few words removed
>   Copying and distribution of this file, with or without modification,
>   are permitted provided the copyright notice and this notice are
>   preserved.
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile ".files")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "BUGS")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "CHANGELOG")
> VTIM   ok  (find-eevfile "COPYING")
> VTIM() +-  (find-eevfile "DEDICATION")
> 0??    +-  (find-eevfile "DEDICATION.c-r")
> SSF-   ok  (find-eevfile "EMACS")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "INSTALL")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "Makefile")
> SSF-   ok  (find-eevfile "NEWS")
> SSF    ok  (find-eevfile "README")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "README-0.95.0")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "THANKS")
> SSF    ok  (find-eevfile "TODO")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "VERSION")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "compose.el")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eeg")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eeg4")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eegchannel")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eev-dev.el")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eev-insert.el")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "eev-langs.el")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "glyphs.el")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "htmlize-eev.el")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "doc/EEVMANIFESTO")
> SSF-   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/HISTORY")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "doc/NAO_pt")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "doc/README")
> SSF    ok  (find-eevfile "doc/README-0.93")
> SSF    ok  (find-eevfile "doc/TOURISM")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/diag-links.jpg")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/diag-links.svg")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/diag-save.jpg")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/diag-save.svg")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "doc/keys.e")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/shot-f3.png")
> PD()   ok  (find-eevfile "doc/shot-f9.png")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "doc/tutorial.e")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "examples/README")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/awk.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/c.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/debian.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/eev-make.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/eev-tests.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/emacs.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/gtk.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/lua.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/make.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/mgp.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/perl.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/php.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/ps.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/python.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/screenshots.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/sh.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/svn.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/tcltk.e")
> GNU()  ok  (find-eevfile "examples/tex.e")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.bashrc")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.bashrc-psne")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.fvwmrc")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.tclshrc")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.vimrc")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.zshrc")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/.zshrc-psne")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/README")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/change")
> GNU    ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/change.awk")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/channel.tcl")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "rcfiles/tmp/README")
> 0      ok  (find-eevfile "tmp/README")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "tmp/tmp-pst.tex")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "tmp/tmp.c")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "tmp/")
> PD     ok  (find-eevfile "tmp/tmp.tex")
> --snip--snip--
>   Cheers, thanks for your attention, etc,
>     Eduardo Ochs
>     address@hidden

"Emacs the only editor which has its own church"

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