Re: [Wesnoth-dev] balancing changes

[John McNabb]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Alex Turner wrote:

> While I think the change in Guardsmen line (re:traits) is good; what's 
> the rationale for removing them as leaders? Is it simply that they can 
> take too much damage? I've been playing allot more, and had enjoyed both 
> using them, and fighting against them as Leader units.
> 
> I'm heading to try and find the IRC log, I guess :-)
> 
> -Alex Turner

Below is the relevant excerpt interspersed with the other discussion on
rebalancing the guardsman.  If people want to hold back on this change,
then only multiplayer.cfg needs to be reverted.

(16:10:17) sanna: Sirp: Well, actually I am only really bothered by 
steadfast in an enemy unit, if it is the leader that has it
(16:10:17) ott: Sirp: since they already have steadfast ability, which is 
a bit
like having a trait, they could have only one extra -- agreed also
(16:10:21) Sirp: what about an alternative of making the guardsman slow in 
most
terrain?
(16:10:25) Ayin: Maybe units should only get 1, and sometimes, when the 
player is lucky, 2 traits
(16:10:43) ott: Ayin: Now that is really stirring the pot.  :-)
(16:10:53) Dragonking: Sirp: I'm afrait problem with guard is that it 
can't be too quick, and too slow  :)
(16:11:14) Shade: Has anybody seen any decent proposals for a) More racial 
traits, b) more general traits (The goal would be to dillute the pool of 
possible traits- but no 'forced fits')
(16:11:36) DarthFool: sirp: the problem is with only 4mv, a 2 in terrain 
mv = really slow.
(16:11:40) Dragonking: Shade: I really don't like idea of "buing traits"
(16:12:04) Shade: Dragonking: Not buy them-
(16:12:17) Dragonking: Shade: I missread you :-/
(16:12:26) DarthFool: shade: I like the idea of having random number of 
traits,
0,1, or 2
(16:12:45) DarthFool: shade: most units should be traitless...
(16:12:50) Shade: DarthFool: Or what you said
(16:12:52) Shade: :)
(16:12:58) Sirp: I don't like the idea of a random number of traits.
(16:13:09) Sirp: traits can already add too much luck to the game
(16:13:15) ott: Sirp: I agree, that really makes things too random
(16:13:25) Shade: In some ways you could make a case that 'Quick is the 
new Loyal"
(16:13:26) Ayin: Mhhhh... Or else, we should introduce anti-traits, like 
weak, stupid, slow, etc *grin*
(16:13:29) Dragonking: I don't like idea of random no of traits too - look 
- traits are main power of unit without special ability
(16:13:31) Sirp: it'll really feel unfair if your units have no traits and 
your
enemies have 2
(16:13:39) Ayin: (just kidding of course :P)
(16:13:40) Dragonking: exacly
(16:13:47) ott: Dragonking: What are the most unbalanced steadfast trait 
combos?  quick/resilient?
(16:13:49) sanna: Sirp: So I would like to remove the Dwarvish Stalwart 
from the leader options...
(16:13:58) Sirp: sanna, that's fine with me.
(16:14:03) Dragonking: ott: yes
(16:14:08) ott: sanna: That sounds sensible.
(16:14:30) sanna: Sirp: Not that solves anything about the Guardsman 
*grin*
(16:14:38) DarthFool: how about make guardsmen have only 1 trait.  leave 
quick in.
(16:15:03) DarthFool: than only 1/4 of guardsmen get quick.
(16:15:08) Dragonking: DarthFool: strog/quick guard is hell too
(16:15:29) DarthFool: dk:  with only 1 trait there would be no 
strong/quick either.
(16:15:31) sanna: DarthFool: Sort of in reality make steadfast a unit 
specific,
always applied trait then?
(16:15:49) DarthFool: sanna: essentially yes.
(16:16:00) Dragonking: and not cause of "strong" trait, but cause he can 
keep terrian and then ulf will come and wipe enemy out - then guard 
protect ulf and we
have circle...
(16:16:34) Dragonking: I mean problem with guard is: IF quick - then 
dwarwes got terrian what they wnt
(16:16:39) Dragonking: want'
(16:17:17) DarthFool: DK: how many quick guards does it take to be 
dangerous?  1? 2? 4?
(16:17:34) Dragonking: 2
(16:18:01) Sirp: yeah I kind of like DarthFool's idea: reduce guardsman's 
traits to 1....then quick isn't that likely and if they are quick, they 
aren't strong
or resilient.
(16:18:02) Dragonking: and possibility to got 2 is VERY high
(16:18:42) Dragonking: Sirp: I think we can try this - it will reduce 
chance to
got quick a lot
(16:19:12) Sirp: yes, if you recruit 2 guardsmen now, there's a 1/4 chance 
both
will be quick....after that change, only a 1/16 chance.
(16:20:02) Dragonking: cause what is most dangerous at MP - quick guard 
and behind him strong/reilirnt ulf
(16:20:10) sanna: Sirp: That is a change I can very well live with *smile*
(16:21:25) Dragonking: Sirp: so I think all here agree with 1 trait idea 
:)
(16:22:14) Sirp: now I believe we just need a code change to allow number 
of traits to be set per-unit-type
(16:22:41) Dragonking: Sirp: and one thing more, just now not about 
dwarwes but
about drakes...
(16:22:47) Sirp: btw should we also reduce the power of the elvish ranger 
a little?
(16:22:50) sanna: Sirp: And removing steadfast leaders? Are we in 
agreement about that too?
(16:22:55) Sirp: sanna, yes.




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        "In theory, theory and practice are the same, 
                but in practice they're different."
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John W. C. McNabb
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