Re: a c++11 wrapper for gnustep libraries

[أسامة مخزوم]

once i write the wrapper, i will consider making GNUSTEP Ui more
attractive to widget-toolkit backend developers so they can target
GNUStep more easily, thank nikolaus for the purposal.

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 11:53 AM H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@computer.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Am 22.05.2021 um 11:41 schrieb أسامة مخزوم <osmakh1@gmail.com>:
>
> Well, you seem to be on my side but in anthoer corner
>
>
> :)
>
> The question will be which corner finds the best adoption by the broader 
> community of C++ programmers. What they really need or are missing. Because 
> we need adopters.
>
> When we are talking about Gnustep outside objc view, developers has one main 
> benefit: gnustep libraries that provide portable and rich libraries as a 
> framework. as a programmer i like it  but try to avoid objective-c and 
> objective-c++ even more. gnustep ui are pretty cool to port wxWidgets or even 
> tk into its backend.  but why not to make this STEP more stright and provide 
> some wrapper/binding to c++? So anyone can later do whatever he want using a 
> c++ syntax without getting messed in objective-c++ every project.
>
>
> Hm. Maybe we should clarify the corners first.
>
> My proposal is to use the wxWidgets API in C++. Implementing the wxWidgets 
> API can likely be done in objc++ - not much different from Cocoa. The result 
> should be some libwxgnustep...
>
> This means that C++ programmers can simply link agains this wxWidgets 
> wrappers by using plain C++.
> They don't see objc++. Only those developers who develop wxWidgets wrapping 
> for GNUstep have to care about.
>
> To give an example, a hello world: 
> https://docs.wxwidgets.org/3.0/overview_helloworld.html
>
> A C++ programmer obviously (I have never written code in wxWidgets, but it is 
> obvious what is going on) uses C++ classes like wxApp, wxFrame, wxMenu and 
> functions like wxMessageBox() or SetStatusText().
> These are provided by the wxWidget libs.
>
> A GNUstep wxWidgets wrapper would of course be written in objc++, but 
> compiled only once into the wrapper library.
> It would translate these classes and function calls into ObjC-messages for 
> GNUstep GUI and Base. For example I imagine that wxMessageBox() could open 
> some NSPanel or the wxMenu method AppendSeparator() would translate into 
> [menu addItem:[NSMenu separatorItem]].
>
> The result would be that programmers can write in pure C++ for wxWidgets, 
> link to the GNUstep wrapper and system and run the Apps on some GNUstep based 
> desktop.
>
> This would be my corner of thinking :)
>
> Or do you generally think about something else?
>
>
> Objc++ is something evil when it comes to syntax and code readabilty: two 
> languages, many restricts to merge, and a strange convention . theorically 
> you can anything possible using this latter, but its too ugly to people to 
> handle it.
>
>
> Fully agree. It should only be used to write Wrappers in either direction, 
> e.g. making ObjC frameworks available to C++ programmers and making C++ 
> libraries available to ObjC programmers.
>
> That's why i would like to go further and make gnustep accesible outside 
> using objective-c++ from the application-developers and other programmer
>
>
> Yes, wxWidgets provide pure C++ classes to programmers and hide objc++.
>
> So maybe we are not even in different corners?
>
> And the key question is what C++ developers really want to see if GNUstep is 
> wrapped. It is a little difficult to find them here on this list, but maybe 
> some reader is "living in both worlds" and can comment.
>
> BR and thanks,
> Nikolaus
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:15 PM H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@computer.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Usama and all,
>> any thoughts on my suggestions?
>>
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>>
>> > Am 11.05.2021 um 14:24 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@computer.org>:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Am 11.05.2021 um 13:48 schrieb Usama makhzoum <osmakh1@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 5/10/21 11:20 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>>> Am 10.05.2021 um 20:58 schrieb أسامة مخزوم <osmakh1@gmail.com>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hi all
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I am thinking of a C++11 wrapper for base, gui and other libraries, may 
>> >>>> be it is easier to do than another PL (because of objective-c++ 
>> >>>> existence). however, i want to hear from you: I would like to have 
>> >>>> opinions and whether if there was a attemp to do this (with c++98, for 
>> >>>> example).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This also can give gnustep (another step). macosX developers always 
>> >>>> searches for c++ wrappers around cocoa and friends. before they 
>> >>>> enforced deeply to objc and swift, they simply wishing the last wish "I 
>> >>>> hope that someone did it". so maybe a c++ wrapper can make gnutep 
>> >>>> famous for the mac development, rather.
>> >>> On macOS C++ is not the primary language (except for kernel drivers). It 
>> >>> is ObjC and Swift.
>> >>>
>> >>> IMHO, objc++ exists because there are some interesting C++ based 
>> >>> libraries (e.g. data processing, business logic, file format decoders) 
>> >>> where it should be possible to integrate them into objc based GUI apps. 
>> >>> So in MVC architecture, C++ would be mainly used for providing an 
>> >>> existing data model.
>> >>
>> >> this could be also a reason for writing such a wrapper.
>> >
>> > I do not understand how it would help. If the GUI is to be written in ObjC 
>> > and some C++ libs to be included, wrapping ObjC transforms the whole 
>> > project into a C++ project which is not what I would like to have.
>> >
>> >> why doing things in two language becomes the standard way? think of it as 
>> >> you were using python and have to do GUI staff with Qt, does i have to 
>> >> try py-c++ or to use a wrapper like pyqt?
>> >
>> > Well, if I use ObjC and want to do some macOS or Linux or Windows GUI 
>> > stuff. Then I simply use GNUstep withou any wrappers.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> GNUSTEP framework is a very easy-and-popular framework, i like it both 
>> >> with developing, and in use. and I think it will make another little 
>> >> advance if there was some easy/neat way to use from c++ (and many other 
>> >> programming languages, like perl, and even javascript), i assume some 
>> >> progress when a c++ programmer (thinks in terms of templates, 
>> >> mutli-inheritance and smartpointers) has access to GNUSTEP. I know that i 
>> >> didn't invent something new or make things impossible as possible. I want 
>> >> to help people that like c++-syntax to consider gnustep as an option, 
>> >> after all.
>> >
>> > Ok!
>> >
>> > Now, I could imagine something like a https://www.wxwidgets.org glue so 
>> > that you can compile any wxWidgets based application not only for macOS, 
>> > Linux (GTK, Qt, X11 etc.) or Windows but also for GNUstep. So make GNUstep 
>> > another "backend" option for wxWidgets in the list of supported platforms:
>> >
>> >       https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/   (i.e. create some wxGNUstep)
>> >
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> I wonder what a use case of the reverse wrapping would be.
>> >>
>> >> a syntax-sugar, or convince wrapper is the main goal.  maybe used as 
>> >> additional gui-frontend for a c++  graphical or command line application 
>> >> without too much diving into obj-c++.
>> >
>> > There may be a key decision before starting a project like you are 
>> > thinking of: which classes and interfaces should your wrapper provide? 
>> > Something completely new (optimized for wrapping GNUstep) or a well known 
>> > set of interfaces already used by many C++ projects.
>> >
>> > Beware: there are already many:
>> >
>> >       
>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/babfl5/a_pretty_big_list_of_c_gui_libraries/
>> >
>> > So wxWidget seems to me one of the preferred choices - but I am not that 
>> > active in C++ that I know what others are doing.
>> >
>> > What I therefor suggest is to check if it is sufficient to make a special 
>> > compiler setup to compile wxOSX/Cocoaas as C++ wrapper around GNUstep. So 
>> > it may even almost exist but nobody did have the idea to make use of it. 
>> > And it may be a much more manageable task than inventing a new wrapper and 
>> > make people use it.
>> >
>> > Now I see a nice benefit of such a project: get any source package from 
>> > github (e.g. KiCAD) that uses wxWidgets, compile it with wxGNUstep and get 
>> > a harmonized look and feel inside a GNUstep desktop...
>> >
>> >
>>
>