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Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete

From: Ergus
Subject: Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 02:09:35 +0100

On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 12:27:48AM +0000, João Távora wrote:
Ergus <address@hidden> writes:

Thanks for the answer it is very clarifying for me now. Maybe you should
add all this information somewhere in the documentation.

*all* this informatino is a bit much, don't you think, but there is
already documentation.

I actually have very strong feelings behind ido in 2019 (I know I am a
sort of apostate for this). But I think it is something that needs to be
removed/deprecated/substituted for the good of newer alternatives like

The idea of fido-mode is indeed to obsolete ido mode.  But it's still a
bit far away.  And removing is yet another matter: i don't think there's
any harm in having ido.  Of course, if fido-mode ever becomes a perfect
superset of ido, and removing it proves mostly harmless, OK I guess.

Yes, I know

The intention is to move the users to the newer functionalities so they
can get the best possible first impression.

I agree with this.  But I don't agree with the "newer" = "best
possible".  These things take time to settle and one of the strong
points of Emacs is, paradoxically, its resistance to change.  Its like a
movie theater where there are only classics playing.  Lots of grainy
footage but all movies are superb.

Yes, but nobody feels impressed by the special effects in the first Star
Wars today, in spite of they were amazing in their moment and required
much more effort than newer movies.

My point is that many new functionalities are implemented for a reason
and hide or limit them because of backward compatibility is senseless.
I think Abo-abo actually tried to modify ido to improve it and he
finally ended implementing ivy... was easier that way.

And I found icomplete.el, which is already in Emacs.

ivy is also based on icomplete actually.

I will pray you to do the same for ivy... please please...

Well, I did very little.  The author did all the work.  I and Stefan
helped (mostly Stefan in the last part).  The evolution is registered
here https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/issues/2165.

You can point Ivy's author to this thread.

I done.

think ivy is now much better integrated than helm before, but for sure
there will be things missing you could help to improve.

still annoyingly (and legitimately) there, and we can't just change
icomplete-mode's defaults like that.

I have never used icomplete... so I don't know what ido provides that
icomplete can't. So where is the gap? Is a part of the gap fixed in helm
or ivy for example?

You are miscommunicating: the "gap" is whatever doesn't quite work in
icomplete-mode to make it work just like ido-mode.  It's the behaviour
of RET, C-k, C-d and some other things.

Could you add at least the cycle with arrows as in ido?

Maybe this paragraph should go in the manual in the ido section
suggesting to switch to fido in order to improve fido as much as
possible and deprecate the actual ido implementation in the future... (I
have a dream, please don't burn me for this "A man can dream... a man
can dream")

There's already a paragraph in the manual.

      An alternative to Icomplete mode is Fido mode.  This is very similar
   to Icomplete mode, but retains some functionality from a popular
   extension called Ido mode (in fact the name is derived from “Fake Ido”).
   Among other things, in Fido mode, ‘C-s’ and ‘C-r’ are also used to
   rotate the completions list, ‘C-k’ can be used to delete files and kill
   buffers in-list.  Another noteworthy aspect is that ‘flex’ is used as
   the default completion style (*note Completion Styles::).
      To enable Fido mode, type ‘M-x fido-mode’, or customize the variable
    fido-mode’ to ‘t’ (*note Easy Customization::).

I also put something in NEWS.

You (or anyone else) can propose changes it, if you want.  I put it in
the icomplete section because it's really very closely related to
icomplete-mode.  Maybe I could add a reference to the ido-mode manual
(just discovered it exists).

Don't know how to do inter-manual references, though, this one is
emacs/buffers.texi the other is misc/ido.texi.

I don;t know if it is possible; but it should be, otherwise at least
mention it in the other.



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