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Re: Why @#! is not Emacs using the Recycle bin on w32?

From: Johannes Weiner
Subject: Re: Why @#! is not Emacs using the Recycle bin on w32?
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:06:52 +0200
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux)

"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <address@hidden> writes:

>>>> Why do you expect it from the UI in the first place? 
>>> Thomas Lord took some time to explain what user interface (scientific
>>> and non-scientific) research had found in this area.
>>> I simply think it is good trying to use the result from that research.
>>> (Or invalidate it, but I think that takes much, much time to try. And I
>>> do not expect it to succeed.)
>> I already invalidated them for myself and I am sure there are others who
>> like terminal deletion.
> Maybe that does not really invalidate the statistical results of the
> more scientific research ... - but of course if many think the same
> ... ;-)

Statistics always include outliers.  While stats draw conclusions about
broader masses, they are bad when it comes to making statements about

>> My only wish is that whatever fix will result from this thread is
>> nothing that changes the default behaviour for the main bulk of dired
>> users that are used to it and can cope.
> That is fair though I personally want it the other way round. Those who
> can cope should cope (if I may stretch your words a bit).
>> My main question, though, was why you expected the trash can thing from
>> an interface that obviously has its roots in *nix cli programs.
> I am not sure. Maybe because I was upset. Or maybe because I expect and
> hope things to evolve ;-)

I might sound a bit conservative on these issues but in fact I have
tried and failed working with interfaces that are `as proven by
research' the most ergonomic ones.

And while certain tools are niche products, they still have a vivid
community like tiling window managers, text shells (have a look at the
zsh developer mailing list, THAT is innovation) and programmatically
combinable text-based utils.

I see that the main bulk of people using computers is more and more
getting away from understanding the tools they use and the tools
accomodate to that to become more and more simple to use intuitively and
with more mechanisms that protect ignorant users from their own actions.

But in this process they lose power.  I noticed that when I watched a
friend of mine resizing images one by one, for hours.  Sure, he didn't
have to learn much because the program was intuitive.  But I read into
the manpage for a text-based util that does the same job for 10 minutes
and did his resizing work that would have taken _hours_ in literally

Still, every average Windows user would tell me that resizing images
with Photoshop is a more modern way than using ImageMagick.  Even if
it's inefficient to ludicrous dimensions.

If people want `modern' interfaces that are accepted by broad masses
then there is enough supply of tools that does that for them.

Just because the average desktop environment has `evolved' into
something that even untrained people can use does not mean that it is
technically better and more usable.  It might be instantly usable but
not much else.

And if you call it evolving to accomodate for untrained users while
punishing those who know their tools, then, yes, I really hope Emacs
does not evolve much.

Seriously, Emacs is one of the rare tools that can still be used
efficiently and without annoyance and I use it for exact that reason.  I
don't need a mouse for it, it does not have stupid popups and when I ask
it to delete a file it deletes it instead of moving it.

I like Emacs because it is NOT like all the others, because it has NOT
broken heuristics that get in my way in really annoying ways.

Again, *nix-like interfaces might not have so many users as other
interfaces have but there *is* demand for it and if you don't like it,
adjust the tool or use a different one.

And in Emacs, you have all the power to hack something up that does the
trash-can disposal of files.  But please don't change the default
behaviour that integrates really well with the overall philosophy.

>From my experience with the GNU coreutils I expect Emacs to delete a
file when I ask it to delete a file.


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