Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Ubuntu !free

[John Southern]

On Monday 05 May 2008 17:31:18 Dave Crossland wrote:
> I did read his post in full, and that was my conclusion - from these
> parts in particular:
> > > gNewSense just seemed wrong, being based on Ubuntu, but with only the
> > > free repositories available. This is effectively not giving me a
> > > choice.
>
> That gNewSense "takes away choice" is common fallacious criticism of
> the project, because it exaggerates taking away the provision of
> proprietary software with taking away the choice to install it (which
> is obviously always present in any computer system that can have
> software installed on it.)

Guilty as charged. However, the exaggeration part works both ways. Personally, 
if I want tools and they are not there I write them. For others, though, they 
may not be in the position to write their own tools and so reducing the 
options available limits their choice.
This does not make me a better person. I just like the challenge of doing the 
code myself.
I am sure we can all agree that it would be better to have GNU tools and 
applications for everything, but telling a child that they should not use 
proprietary software at a school does not help either the child, the school 
or the parents. A different approach would be to explain and show how GNU 
software is better. That is not necessarily more bells and whistles, the 
freedom part counts, but saying no you cannot use that is living in an ivory 
tower.
Even with naming I have changed my opinions on over the years from Linux to 
Gnu/Linux to Lignus (Anyone else old enough to remember that?), back to 
Gnu+Linux to Linux. This is similar to the way I say Google, Hoover, 
Rollerblade, Portakabin, Escalator, Pogo and Heroin. All brand names that are 
now in common use.
Now while my shiney new laptop is text only can you honestly say you always 
say GNU/Linux/X if it is graphical. Do you always mention Gnu/Linux/Apache 
for your webserver? Do you still insist everyone says Crapper for a flush 
toilet that has a floating ballcock. Not doing so means not giving due 
coverage. So why should GNU be different? 

> > > I would happily recommend MS Windows if that best suited the needs of
> > > the individual.
>
> I would never recommend Windows or any proprietary software, and I
> criticise people who do use it, but if they are planning to escape to
> a free OS in the long term and are using an increasing amount of free
> software applications in the short term, I will commend them for that.

Criticism is always welcome, otherwise I would never learn. Show me a better 
way of doing things and I am willing to repent.
We have to assume everyone wants freedom so it is just about timescale. If 
Windows or proprietary software or even a non GPL licence is the only way to 
do something, then are you really going to tell someone that they should not 
do it. That they have no option. That because their job depends on it, they 
should refuse to work. Braver man than me.
Yes, happy to write what I can and solve problems, but as an example are you 
saying all bank workers should down tools and join a picket until GNU only 
tools are installed. (Banks do use a lot of GNU software, just not 
exclusively).
Although writing tools is not the real end as much of the time the codecs are 
the killer.
If the choice is use a Windows system to get a creditation to get a job to 
escape from poverty, would you deny them by not recommending Windows?

> > > When recommending free software I give my usual freedom speech, but
> > > I moderate from going into full rant as that would drive many away from
> > > the best option for their needs.
>
> It is possible to explain the pressing need to eradicate proprietary
> software from our society without driving people away.

Yes, but it is all about granularity. We all know where the goals are, but 
trying to get a bunch of homeless offenders at the local hostel to do this is 
a slow process. Easy wins are OpenOffice and Firefox, but most are just 
interested in finding out how to produce a CV as proof they are seeking 
employment. They have other concerns that are more pressing.

> > > This does put me at odds with RMS.
> > > I am not against MS.
>
> I think this exaggerates RMS' position as unreasonable, and ignores
> the grave danger that a convicted monopolist poses to a free society.

No. RMS has a very understandable position. I admire him for maintaining his 
convictions. I envy his coding skill. I just live in a different world where 
I have to meet people who know no better and are not interested.
MS as a convicted monopolist - yes.
MS as a danger to free society - yes
MS as a writer of some awful buggy code - yes (but then I am guilty of that 
one as well)
The same is true for almost every company. I cannot think of a single SAN 
manufacturer that uses GPL only code. Does this mean you boycott anything 
that uses SAN? That would be banks, government agencies or anything of a 
reasonable size such as every University.
My hope is that iSCSI will drop in price and we can write something. With SAN 
starting at £1M I have a hard enough time getting access never mind let me 
rewrite the code.
In my world most people use Windows. I laugh at them and tease them about 
viruses and crashes. These are people who do not work in IT. Those that do 
work in IT I just sneer as they should know better. Most people just want to 
get something done on a computer. If that is not available under GNU, then by 
insisting they forego it, we risk losing them completely. 

> > > I am giving in? Possibly, but it is an imperfect world
>
> This is also fallacious. That we live in an imperfect world does not
> excuse giving up on improving the situation.

True, which is why I have a constant crisis of conscious with licencing. I 
will not give up the use of proprietary software at work completely as I have 
a family to feed. Happy to try and convert everyone, but making a complete 
stand would see me out of a job and starve or at least upset my wife. The 
Dole office does not use GNU only so the stand would be meaningless if I was 
then to accept their help.
I use GNU personally, but I also have Debian. While I could say I have this 
because this is the easiest way to use Hurd, I would not be telling the whole 
truth.

> But John can make a different kind of contribution by promoting an
> ethical case for software freedom.

Re-reading this does make it out that I am just a Windows fanboy and hate GNU. 
Honest it is not really like that. I even see and chat to you once a year 
Dave! (At least I think it is you. Does Belgium & Beer mean anything to you?)

OK I will try to reclaim my GNU credentials while being honest about my 
failings :-)

I do own almost every copy of Windows. I have them all pristine sealed and do 
not have any Windows systems. This is just out of personal collecting choice. 
I have not installed any non free software except for a copy of Uplink which 
I happily bought because I thought the author had done an excellent job (I 
bought two copies because I ran it on two machines) and I am incredible 
fortunate never to have had any pirated software. That is more of a fluke 
than design
Most of my graphics cards would easily support 3D rendering, but I do not have 
any binary accelerators. (Actually we are still using text here so we have no 
need for accelerator drivers anyway.)

At the moment I am trying to teach children how to write better code. My 
daughter is just about to release her first add-on for a piece of software 
and that will be GPLv3 or later. Promoting software freedom is a good thing 
(and isn't it about time we did another InfoPoint at Bowlers?) but I would 
rather code and get on with it.

However, always one to accept advice, I have just downloaded the gNewSense 2.0 
ISO and I will try it. It will be compared to my dyne:bolic system (the other 
recommended by FSF) so it has a lot to live up to, but I will give it a 
decent amount of time as I would not want to make a snap judgement.

I am assuming everyone here runs Hurd and do not have a Mac in their home?

My needs are very simple with a text editor, text browser and a copy of 
Festival. My children all must suffer GNU tools only, although we do tend to 
use a KDE based system for some tasks (I am writing on this machine at the 
moment!). It is the one attached to the laser printer.

Where I fail utterly, is I have almost as many MP3s as Oggs as I really cannot 
be bothered getting the CDs from the loft to re-rip, I work on Solaris, HP/UX 
and Aix boxes alongside my Linux boxes. I have fixed peoples Windows systems 
for them. I do own some hardware that is proprietary * although I am in the 
process of burning my own eeproms. The shame is I have a non-GNU phone, but 
on the plus side my robot is GNU only :-)

What should I do? Should I give up my job and go back to biochemistry (The 
answer to that is No as if you think software companies are corrupt, you 
really have never looked at a chemical megacorporation!)?
Should I go back to graphic design? (Dave any chance of a job drawing out 
fonts?)((I now really hope this is the same Dave :-)   ))
Should I try and compete with honest companies for the limited honest ethical 
business?

I know who RMS is and have been stuck in a room with just him and two others. 
I can quote bits of the GPL. I even trekked across the moors to listen to 
James Vasile in Sheffield (Actually very good).
I have lived with GPL for fourteen years.

There. That is my GNU credential! ;-) <----- Note the smiley! All said in good 
jest.  Am I really so out of touch for letting others use Windows if no GNU 
equivalent exists?

*My secret vice is I still support some 8-bit computers that in some cases are 
ten years older than the GPL.

John