Re: UML cooperation

[Derek Neighbors]

> Well, Derek, now you know why I keep myself only on the fringes of
> gnue, and why I started the "duplicating" myerp.org project. You only
> want to use tools that are "blessed by the family" (the GNU family
> that is ... Don Derek :-), 

The only necessary blessing is that they are free.  However, preference is
given to tools in the GNU camp.  Example Mico is under a better license
than ORBit.  However ORBit is a better working relationship for us.

In that it has functionality we need as of now, but anything we dont have
we work with them to get so the community benefits.

> even if they are crap (sorry, I mean, still
> in early development) or simply nonexistent. While I on the other hand
> "really!" don't care about this religion, I just want the job done,
> the sooner the better, with the best tools I can get my hands on. So
> I'm sorry for the duplication of projects, but for the time being, I
> think I'll remain on the fringes of gnue still (and push my myerp
> thing with whatever I fill like), as you guys are much too restrictive
> for me.

Yes this is something hard to understand but look at GNU as a whole its
nearly 15 years old and really has only caught on in past 5 years.  You
think people didnt have same argument with gcc.  I mean other C compilers
for Unix did exist.  The GNU philosphy is about freedom.  Choosing to use
GNU\Linux full time is a choice.  So is developing for GNUe.  It's not for
everyone.  Sometimes it can be frustrating even for us fanatics, but if
someone isnt fighting for your freedom you will always be in chains to
vendors.

> > Freedom is AND will be VALUED over ANY feature. > 
> This "sounds" nice, but where is the meaning behind those powerful
> words ? What is your understanding of the concept of freedom then ? I
> was only talking about a tool in relation to this project, what's the
> "sin" in that ?

``Free software'' refers to the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute,
study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four
kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: 

 1. The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). 
 2. The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. 
 3. The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
(freedom 2). 
 4. The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements
to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access 
to the source code is a precondition for this. 

The sin is then you start making developers who dont have $4k or wont use
free software not participate.  It is same reason Jbuilder or delphi or
visual C++ or Visual basic are not used in free software projects.

> Third, I only talk about RR because I strongly believe that it can
>"really" help this project. And so does ArgoUML (though to a lesser
> extent), which is unfortunately still far from RR's functionality, but
> then much better than Dia: at least that generates Java source (if I
> recall correctly). From my perspective, gnue is not really in a
> position to spit over any help it can muster. Sure you can "move
> mountains" a tea spoon at a time, but there are other more efficient
> ways. Life is short.

First we have .cld or class definition files not C/C++/Java code defining
what would be modeled in UML, so I doubt ANY product is gonna be able to
spit that out. (at least not today)

We can spit at what we like. :)  But in honesty chains dont help us move
towards being free so we will gladly shun them. (in regards to RR)

While I dont like moving mountains with teaspoons I would rather do that
and get closer to freedom.  Than use a bulldozer and work closer and
closer to being confined to prop software.  This is my choice and other
that contribute to GNUe no one would force you do so.
 
> Fourth, I don't want to extend Dia, I'm here for the ERP stuff
> (remember?).

This scares me.  That is why its a "community".  If everyone only did what
they only what they needed how horrible. :(  Example we have submitted
patches back to several tool and libraries we use.  As well as actively
submit and work with maintainers on issues.  We like to view tools we use
as partnerships.  It feels good to give back to them.  Its not like they
dont need help too. libGDA is an example of this.
 
> Fifth, a poor general is he who never changes his mind. Situations
> change, new opportunities appear, you don't maintain an x months
> decision just because you said so back then, you do it ONLY because it
> is still relevant to the present situation. Adapt or die (hmm, how
> Darwinian of me).

I think there are certain core values that are not changeable.  These are
moral in nature.  Freedom is one of them.  I have said that looking at
ArgoUML if its free is something to do.  However RR is not free so it
falls outside of scope of discussing.
 
> Finally, if you want me to shut up, well it's your project, so I'll
> (try to) respect that.  But as my grandma would say "You won't go far
> with That attitude, young man". I believe you want to attract people
> willing to put their free time and effort on your project, not scare
> them away. Else, you will see your people shutting down or ...
> branching out. Trick or treat!

We value all opinions.  Its good to know how people are thinking about
things.  I am sorry if the attitude comes off wrong.  Its just this is a
GNU project so I find it odd debating core GNU principles.  

It would be like joining a basketball team and asking why people dribble
the ball.  After all just carrying it would be much easier and you could
score more points. (bad analogy i know)

Yes I am sure plenty will branch out.  You should look at
http://www.opensourceerp.org.  They like java and are only concerned about
open and not free same with linux kontor (though they value freedom a bit
more).  This might be better than starting a new project from scratch.

However feel free to continue to contribute to GNUe in any capacity.

Derek Neighbors
GNU Enterprise
http://www.gnue.org
address@hidden