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Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core

From: David Kastrup
Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:46:15 +0100
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux)

Oleh Krehel <address@hidden> writes:

> Juanma Barranquero <address@hidden> writes:
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Oleh Krehel <address@hidden> wrote:
>>> I have some reservations for this. While I use use-package, I started
>>> with it long after learning basic Elisp. Essentially, use-package is a
>>> black box that abstracts and creates new syntax. Which is fine for
>>> veteran users, since they have an idea of what it does. But I think it
>>> might be detrimental to new Elisp users. Using the first method, they
>>> learn what `add-hook' is, what `add-to-list' is, what keymaps are etc.
>>> These things are useful in all kinds of places, not just in the context
>>> of setting up packages.
>> Wouldn't that be an argument against Customize, too?
> Customize is for people that aren't yet ready to learn Elisp.  Once
> they do, it indeed becomes redundant.

Nonsense.  It provides type safety and makes sure that the variables are
set in the intended way.  It also makes sure that any followup actions
necessary after setting the variables are being performed.

It's like saying lamp sockets are for people that aren't yet ready to
learn soldering.  Once they do, they indeed become redundant.

> I used Customize when I started out around 5 years ago. I don't use it
> now, except for providing it to the users of my packages.

I don't see that this makes any sense since it means you have to learn
all about the various dependencies and intricacies of every single
package you are going to use.

> Use-package is already an Elisp thing.

It's for people that aren't yet read to manage load-file.  Or something.
And Elisp is for people that aren't yet ready to learn C.

> We should encourage the core Elisp to be simple to learn, because it
> is actually very simple.  Not anymore so with macros like `cl-loop',
> `pcase' and `use-package'.  They are powerful, but /they are their own
> language/ completely separate from Elisp. They have their place, but
> in my opinion Elisp newbies should not be encouraged to use them.

Sorry, but I cannot agree at all.  That's like saying C++ users should
not learn about the standard libraries since they should rather write
their own.

> And including `use-package' into the core somehow promotes and
> recommends the use of it over the built-in facilities, which are
> newbie-friendly, while `use-package' is not.

I think you got it backwards.

David Kastrup

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