Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 18:22:03 +0000
> Cc: Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr>,
>       jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org,
>       stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>       rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org
> 
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 06:09:20PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > The node name may be visible in the output, so if English node names are
> > > used they won't be in the translated manual language.  So I do not think
> > > that is it correct, in general, to use the English node names even if
> > > they link to the correct node in a translated manual with English node
> > > names as anchors.
> > 
> > Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.  What do you mean by
> > "visible in the output"? which output?
> 
> The Info output, I believe.  Suppose there is a cross-reference to a node
> in the Emacs manual, "Select Buffer".  This would appear in Info output
> as "*note (emacs)Select Buffer::."  The English words "Select Buffer"
> would appear incongruous surrounded by non-English text.

But so is "note", and you said we won't (and probably cannot) use
something else instead.  So English is already there.

> The problem with translating the node name is that a simple
> cross-reference like "note (emacs)Choisir Tampon" would not work if
> the manual and node did not exist.   First Info would have to know
> the preferred language of the manual to find, and find a manual
> "emacs-fr.info".  Then, if the manual does exist, the person
> translating the manual may not have used that translation.  If they had
> called it "Sélectionner buffer" instead it wouldn't be found.  Any manual
> being translated would likely reference several others, many of which
> will not have existing translations.  It's not right for a translator
> just to make up their own translations of node names for manuals
> which haven't been translated yet.

Right.

> Although it's not ideal, using cross-reference labels may be the best
> solution.  It would be a temporary solution if the targetted manual
> obtained an English translation later.  Once that is the case, the
> first manual could be updated with the translated node name, so
> "*note Choisir Tampon:(emacs)Select Buffer." becomes
> "*note (emacs)Choisir Tampon::", eliminating the English.

You mean, the Info reader should do that?  It would mean that the Info
reader will need to access all its cross-manual links in a node before
it can display the node with or without the English node names.

> Automatic processing of other translated manuals could make node name
> translations easily available.  You could imagine an Emacs command used
> by a translator that would look up equivalent node and anchor names in
> Texinfo documents, if they exist.  For example, if a translator translates
> a file containing "@ref{Select Buffer,, emacs, The Emacs Editor}" and
> supposing that emacs-fr.texi did exist with "@node Choisir Tampon" and
> "@anchor{Select Buffer}" immediately after, the software could make
> the @node name available to use in translating this @ref.  This would
> require a translator to have the other translated manuals on their machines,
> but you could imagine the same system working on an abbreviated version
> of the manuals that solely had @node lines with following @anchor commands.
> 
> This all seems to me to be something to be worked out in software used
> by translators as well as possibly processes to be followed by translation
> teams.

Right.