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Re: tie over clef change

From: Hans Åberg
Subject: Re: tie over clef change
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:15:33 +0200

> On 27 Sep 2020, at 19:31, David Kastrup <> wrote:
> Hans Åberg <> writes:
>>> On 26 Sep 2020, at 18:04, Dan Eble <> wrote:
>>>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 09:41, Dan Eble <> wrote:
>>>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 08:55, Werner LEMBERG <> wrote:
>>>>> Despite Gould's “incorrect” verdict, here is an example from an old UE
>>>>> edition of Liszt's “Liebestraum No. 1”, which demonstrates that ties
>>>>> over clef changes *do* happen and make sense sometimes...
>>>>> I still think that LilyPond should support that, handling the tie like
>>>>> a slur in this case.
>>>> That's a very good example.  It's hard to imagine any reasonable 
>>>> alternative.
>>>> What kind of grob would an editor expect here? a Tie because it
>>>> connects notes of the same pitch, or a Slur because it connects
>>>> notes at different staff positions? (or something else?)
>>> I'll answer my own question.  A tie from d♯ to e♭ generates a Tie
>>> grob, so for consistency, this should be a Tie that looks like a
>>> slur.
>> The notes d♯ to e♭ have different pitches in the staff notation
>> system, which cannot express E12 enharmonic equivalents, so this is
>> slur. So it should be a slur that looks like slur.
> We are talking about a piano here.  It has no different keys for d♯ and
> e♭ and only a single manual.  A slur even across the same pitch will be
> executed with a separate keypress as opposed to a tie.

If you look down the thread, there are two different questions, when expressing 
it in the staff notation as is, and when forcing E12 enharmonic equivalents 
onto it.

And not all pianos are tuned in E12, as in the case of meantone tunings.

> I seem to remember that even in Bach's B minor mass (where E12 was not
> yet a thing) there is an enharmonic tie (or at least tonal repetition?)
> in the transition from "Confiteor" to "Et expecto".  I mean, that
> transition is a tonal center nightmare anyway.
> I'd have to consult my score to pick out the details.

It would be of interest.

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