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Re: tie over clef change

From: Benkő Pál
Subject: Re: tie over clef change
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 12:24:05 +0200

David Kastrup <> ezt írta (időpont: 2020. szept. 27., V, 22:01):
> Hans Åberg <> writes:
> >> On 27 Sep 2020, at 19:57, Lukas-Fabian Moser <> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I seem to remember that even in Bach's B minor mass (where E12 was not
> >>> yet a thing) there is an enharmonic tie (or at least tonal repetition?)
> >>> in the transition from "Confiteor" to "Et expecto".  I mean, that
> >>> transition is a tonal center nightmare anyway.
> >>>
> >> In bar 138:
> >>
> >> <jnfkghmffdnbmoal.png>
> >>
> >> Basically that is an example of enharmonic equivalence of diminished
> >> 7th chords: The tonal centre in the preceding bars is clearly d (d
> >> major with hints of d minor), so the diminished chord in bar 138 is
> >> most probably first heard as f♯-a-c-e♭ (with expected resolution to
> >> g minor), but is then being re-interpreted (and written) as
> >> f♯-a-b♯-d♯, resolving to c♯ major functioning as a dominant to f♯
> >> minor.
> >> My point is: Even without E12 tuning, this is clearly an example of
> >> fully exploited enharmonic equivalence used as a "wormhole" in an
> >> otherwise purely diatonic tonal system. There can be no question
> >> that this is semantically a tie.
> >>
> >> (One might raise the objection that, maybe, when performing the
> >> piece, a slight adjustment in intonation might be needed in the
> >> transition from c to b♯. But this can also happen for bona fide ties
> >> in purely diatonic music, so that does not yield an argument against
> >> the tie being a tie.)
> The tonal center collapse is done purely vocally in an a cappella
> passage and when the instruments come back in, it's in a resurrection
> key and instrument groups (like brass) that are typical for it.
> Really, you need to listen to it before sorting it into the context of
> its period.  This passage is completely out of whack with its time while
> it is arrived at from a grandiosely conservative fugue in full ars
> antiqua.
> Here is a link <> to a
> Herreweghe version.  The piano extract displayed in parallel would
> suggest that there is, after all, an instrumental part even in the 2:30
> and finally 3:00 (or so) locations which is a bit surprising to me since
> I remember how we fought keeping the intonation in line so that the
> resurrection trumpets could fall right in.  I cannot hear instruments
> there right now but I have only builtin speakers at low volume right now
> so I may be wrong about that.

Not purely a cappella, since the continuo group plays throughout,
including (a) keyboard instrument(s) playing the complete chords (in
whatever temperament c and his are the same key).

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