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Re : [Chicken-users] other leading Schemes

From: minh thu
Subject: Re : [Chicken-users] other leading Schemes
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:18:04 +0100

2007/2/2, Brandon J. Van Every <address@hidden>:
minh thu wrote:
> Hi Brandon,
> although you first start your mail with a question, what's the
> underlying intention ?
> I can't understand why there's so much discussion about 'community
> size' and 'growing' and  so on... it's the same on every mailing list
> I've read.
> Don't take my question offensively; it's really not the goal...

The underlying intention is for programming "not to suck."

That and to
actually make money.  Programming pretty much sucks when it creates lots
of busywork for you + doesn't pay the bills.  You get caught in a cycle
of working on unprofitable trivia, suddenly wondering how you'll keep
the roof over your head, and realizing the gruntwork has kept you from
accomplishing any significant goal anyways.  When this goes on for a
long time, you come to realize that the language you're using is not
better than any other crap out there, no matter how sophisticated or
advantageous it's supposed to be.  It's actually a big waste of time.
You just waste your time in different ways than a mainstream language.

You're saying programming sucks when 1/ you want it to make money but
got stuck in silly details, 2/ and also the language used is of minor

1/ There's different way to make money with programming but to get
stuck in silly details, I would think you're talking of some kind of
personal project. Right ?

Because I would think also that for ordered tasks, it's perfectly
acceptable to use any language to get the job done.

2/ Language used is of minor importance : why ? Because java is bulky
but has a lot of libraries, and because Scheme is slick but with not
enough tools ?

Or because even if Scheme is nicer than java you have gruntworks that
you woudn't have with java ? In fact, I thought a nicer language would
make the work (even groundwork) more pleasant and faster do.

At least with the mainstream languages, there's money in them, you can
get paid for them.  If you accidentally become well versed in the trivia
of C++, Java, or C#, you can make big $$$$$$ at that.

Do you mean being employed ? Or at least working for out sourced
project, not in-house project (i.e. the language used is of importance
for the one who ordered the project) ?

With a marginal language like Scheme, nobody cares.  You go hungry.

Same question.

I'm not ready to give up on Chicken yet, or open source in general.  I
think there must be a profitable business model in it somewhere.  But
I'm quite aware of all the support and R&D jobs that must get done, to
make a language that really is pleasant to use.  So I see community
organization as key.

You mean the language is not useable as-is...

Academics and students don't feel these issues.  They've got financial
support for their work.  So they can work on languages like Scheme that
don't make most people any money.

... but is ok for non-making-money work. right ?

Some people actually use Scheme as part of their commercial business
model.  But they are few and far between.  Their economic results are
not easily reproduced by most people.  Whereas anyone can learn C++,
Java, and C# and then go make money.

I have difficulties to explain my misunderstanding of what you're
saying. I have the feeling you're mixing different issues : languages
(mainstream and others) and business models.

I think you're saying "at least, with java, you can be still ok making
money" but forget that it would imply a totally different way of
making so than when you're saying "even with Scheme, groudwork gets
you stucked".

Hoping it makes sense,

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