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Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian)
Philippe C . D . Robert
Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian)
Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:13:30 +0200
On Sep 23, 2004, at 7:45 PM, Alex Perez wrote:
This is a good point and, imho, one of the reasons GNOME and KDE are
more widely used - I remember using KDE 0.0.2 or whatever early
version they had, and I could _use_ it. It had a window manager, a
panel and a file manager that crashed every time I dragged something
to the trash. But I could use it.
G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E.
G N U S T E P I S N O T A D E S K T O P E N V I R O N M E N T
G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E
G N U S T EP S H O U L D B E A D E S K T O P E N V I R O N M E N T
Seriously, it's not. There are several projects to *USE* GNUstep in a
gnustep-centric development environment, but what you are doing is
akin to calling 'kdelibs' a "Desktop Environment". You are comparing
apples to oranges, and not even realizing it.
Seriously, it should be. This is IMHHO the main reason for its low
acceptance, or should I say complete lack of acceptance....?
WRT to wording, KDE is the desktop environment which uses several
kdelibs. The same should hold for GNUstep, GNUstep should be the
desktop environment which uses our gnustep-* libs (among others).
GNUstep is more than just some libs, right now it is the "development
environment" which uses and includes the gnustep-* libs.
In fact, today we have a weird situation because officially GS is not a
desktop environment, but the website mentions the "GNUstep user
experience" or "official GNUstep applications", totally weird IMHO for
an "OO framework and tool set"....
GNUMail is not an "environment" so I don't see your point. Yes it's
true that we maintain that GNUstep is not a desktop environment
because IT IS NOT. There are many, many, many things that a real
desktop environment needs to provide which GNUstep does not, will not,
and should not provide.
GNUstep however always maintained they were implementing the OpenStep
api and not a desktop environment, and for a long while didn't have a
usable environment (except for GNUMail.app). So of course, users like
me would see this and say - hm? There's nothing to use here and move
on to gnome or kde, even though I liked the elegance of the *step gui
It is not a desktop because some people insist it is not, but not
because it cannot be(come) one.
That shouldn't be an option, because GNUstep is not a desktop
environment. WindowMaker should be started, and then from there the
various GNUstep apps should be started.
So you wouldn't call KDE a desktop environment, because according to
your reasoning kwm is first being started and from there various apps
are launched which use the kdelibs and whatsoever? Common, this is just
The fact that you question it merely means you don't know what you're
talking about. Would you call "Cocoa" a desktop environment? No,
because that's simply not what it is. GNUstep is akin to Cocoa's
Foundation and AppKit.
It was pointed out to me that unlike KDE and GNOME, GNUstep is not a
desktop environment. I question the value of such a distinction.
GNUstep is not just AppKit + FoundationKit, GNUstep is a "development
environment", it consists of these 2 frameworks but it also includes
tools and some apps.
The (old...) question IMHO is: is a development environment sufficient,
is this really what users/developers expect from GNUstep? Are you as a
developer confident, that an app(*) written using GNUstep (the various
libs) will be accepted by users which are using the KDE or GNOME
desktop environment? Do you really believe users accept applications
which do not integrate 100% in their desktop environment of choice? Are
you as a user willing to use apps which do not fit into your
environment, unless you have to? Personally I do not believe so. And
that's why I believe GNUstep in its current form is doomed to fail, not
to say it already did - unless of course it is the goal to attract very
few developers which only develop custom, inhouse applications using
(*): I am talking about apps here having a UI, of course.
Philippe C.D. Robert
Message not available
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), oberhage, 2004/09/14
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Patrix, 2004/09/20
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Adrian Robert, 2004/09/23
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Alex Perez, 2004/09/23
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Riccardo, 2004/09/24
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Alex Perez, 2004/09/24
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Markus Hitter, 2004/09/24
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Pete French, 2004/09/24
- Message not available
- Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian), Patrix, 2004/09/25