Re: New ProjectCenter Icons

[Gregory John Casamento]

Nikolaus,

> Yes, they are integrated, but I would not agree that they are *well*  
> integrated. I can imagine a lot of areas where integration could be  
> better.
I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that a little.

> And it is the basic question: should PC and GORM follow what Apple is  
> doing or try to go a different - potentially better way?

PC and Gorm should stay the way they are, because this is the better way.   
Each tool has a specific purpose.  I'm a big believer in the "doing one job 
well" philosophy.  A monolithic IDE like Eclipse for GNUstep doesn't appeal to 
me.

> Xcode got so complex because it even includes a Class browser and a  
> Data Entity relationship modeler (a graphical tool!) for defining the  
> CoreData models. I have really no clue why Apple decided to integrate  
> that into Xcode and not IB or vice versa...

Yes, as you said, it got complex.   I, personally, believe that including the 
data modeler and the class modeler/browser into Xcode was a mistake.   If those 
are done for GNUstep, and they probably will be at some point, I don't believe 
that they should be part of PC, but that they should be separate applications.

> You can also open Source code files in Xcode without having a  
> project. So, why should it not be possible to open NIB files without  
> a project?

I don't really count this as a feature of any kind.   I think it's sad that 
you're starting up an app which has a class modeler, a data modeler, project 
management code and tons of other things... just to read a source file.   So we 
now have a 10MB application in memory to read a source file... doesn't seem 
like a big win to me.

> Hm - while I like this idea of doing things differently - I always  
> hear that fragmentation and duplication of efforts is not so good...

Linking with and reusing GormLib doesn't imply any sort of "duplication of 
effort."   This is why it's called "reuse." :)

> And the basic question that is driving me into this discussion is not  
> answered: how can we attract new users and developers?
> IMHO one puzzle piece is by starting to develop better concepts than  
> there are today (e.g. from Apple).

Different != better.

The plain and simple truth is 

1) GNUstep needs more applications
2) GNUstep needs to look better....   

That is how we are going to attract developers.   

Regards, Greg

--
Gregory Casamento## GNUstep Chief Maintainer/Gorm Maintainer

----- Original Message ----
From: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@computer.org>
To: Riccardo <multix@ngi.it>
Cc: Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@tiptree.demon.co.uk>; Gregory John 
Casamento <greg_casamento@yahoo.com>; discuss-gnustep@gnu.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:14:54 PM
Subject: Re: New ProjectCenter Icons


Am 11.09.2007 um 19:39 schrieb Riccardo:

> Hi,
>
>>> I actually prefer to have separate, apps for editing different   
>>> things ... then their gui can be better tailored to the specific  
>>> task.
>
> I too prefer  having different applications for different tasks. I  
> Find that PB and IB are well integrated together, PC and GORM will  
> follow.

Yes, they are integrated, but I would not agree that they are *well*  
integrated. I can imagine a lot of areas where integration could be  
better.

And it is the basic question: should PC and GORM follow what Apple is  
doing or try to go a different - potentially better way?

>> My main target for this discussion is to think about how GNUstep   
>> could revolutionize IDEs by making things really simpler for  
>> daily  work... This might help to attract new developers and  
>> users. So, it  is more to be seen as a feature request for PC/GORM  
>> 2.0
>
> I would rather leave things as they ar, just improve them. A big do- 
> it-all application just gets more complex. Look at the simplicity  
> of PB compared to XCode...

Yes, that is a good argument.

Xcode got so complex because it even includes a Class browser and a  
Data Entity relationship modeler (a graphical tool!) for defining the  
CoreData models. I have really no clue why Apple decided to integrate  
that into Xcode and not IB or vice versa...

> Also note that IB can be used to edit NIB files without a project,  
> you can open files included in an application (that is also a  
> selling point, translate things once deployed, etc etc)

You can also open Source code files in Xcode without having a  
project. So, why should it not be possible to open NIB files without  
a project?

> Note also that Gorm provides GormLib so if you really feel the need  
> of a different ide you can create a new, revolutionary one. It may  
> be a feature of for example ProjectManager to integrate these  
> different concepts. There is no doubt that some developer might  
> prefer that way, other the current traditional way. So providing  
> both...
>
> PC and GORM are just an implementation, everybody can do them in a  
> different way.

Hm - while I like this idea of doing things differently - I always  
hear that fragmentation and duplication of efforts is not so good...

And the basic question that is driving me into this discussion is not  
answered: how can we attract new users and developers?
IMHO one puzzle piece is by starting to develop better concepts than  
there are today (e.g. from Apple).