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Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposa
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From: |
Jean Louis |
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Subject: |
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?) |
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Date: |
Thu, 19 May 2022 01:39:00 +0300 |
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User-agent: |
Mutt/2.2.0 (2022-02-12) |
* Erica Frank <e.lynn.frank@gmail.com> [2022-05-13 21:32]:
> The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and
> in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for
> switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS.
Installing an operating system is simply NOT for beginner. Your best
option for beginners is to buy hardware with installed free operating
system.
The campaign Upgrade from Windows is availabe for that purpose:
https://www.fsf.org/windows
It points to free software distributions:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html
Each of them have their forums, mailing lists, IRC, more or less free
support for users to switch to new system.
> The problem with multiple Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted
> for different specific needs, is that the average Windows user has
> no idea how to pick one, and installation is often followed by
> problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the internet
> until you download a set of drivers for it.... which you'll need to
> do on another machine, and then transfer in."
Multiple-Linux setups does not sound as a beginner problem. However,
would you have some specific issue at hand, I could tell you how and
where to report it, if I cannot resolve it myself.
> Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you
> don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows."
That is generalization based on unnamed person's opinion.
Free software distributions are there abiding by policies on how to
solve issues of users. Your statement above is so far not relevant to
those free software distributions. I have not seen not even one time
that some person would answer that way. In fact, one of policies is
not to drive people to proprietary systems.
Maybe you have asked it on some website not relevant to GNU project or
FSF.
> Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language
> that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I
> have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where
> do I find them?"
Statement is general, strives towards blaming, without constructive
improvement proposal.
For technical questions you should expect technical answers.
> And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie
> questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed"
> followed by a link to another question that they do not understand
> as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are
> usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn
> to ask better questions."
Those websites are not related to FSF or GNU project or free software
distributions.
Your general fury on various communities cannot possibly be solved on
Libreplanet mailing list.
> That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school
> students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does
> web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end
> result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes
> back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back
> to Windows."
That some people will remain on proprietary OS is understandable, and
that more people will switch is also provable by statistics, as there
is every day more and more GNU/Linux users. Dissatisfaction on your
side does not at all represent global movement, unspoken a fact.
https://findly.in/how-many-linux-users-are-there/
> As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed
> training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic
> thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to
> switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay.
That is your opinion. I cannot relate to it, it is general, blaming,
and does not represent anyone's true or real world experience.
> (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of
> google" will not result in more people converting to free software.)
That is tangential issue. Though nobody forbids you to use Google, I
can't see where is the real problem on your side.
> And that applies to other free software as well. The benefits of
> switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched as
> something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and
> you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most
> people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of
> relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features
> they've come to expect. (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent
> of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd love to hear about it. And every few
> years, I install LibreOffice and see if it'll cover how I use Word;
> it does not.) (It would cover how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't
> see the value in using those without switching the whole
> suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.)
Oh, now I get it. 🤗 Well... there are many ways of how people do
their documents. You would not be able to achieve in Word what I do
with LaTeX as well. I am also using Asciidoctor and I may be faster by
all means to prepare business contracts and agreements, employment
contracts, project documents, my business runs on Emacs that runs
LaTex or Asciidoctor, just as example.
Many of my documents are ordered and I have quick access to such. Here
is a short statistics below. When you become proficient in any
software, you may rather tend to stick to what you know. That is
rather normal, but is not an objective view point. I would expect you
to express yourself objectively, based on some survey or poll of users.
┌──────────────────────────────┬───────────────────────┬─────────────────────────────┬───────┐
│ Type │ Sub-type │ Markup
│ Count │
├──────────────────────────────┼───────────────────────┼─────────────────────────────┼───────┤
│ Asciidoctor │ Default │ Asciidoctor
│ 53 │
│ Asciidoctor │ Attachment │ Asciidoctor
│ 2 │
│ Asciidoctor │ Agreement │ Asciidoctor
│ 1 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Default │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 17 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Agreement │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 10 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ PDF │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 6 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Task │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 5 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Report │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 3 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Partnership Offer │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 2 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Attachment │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 2 │
│ Asciidoctor PDF │ Quotation │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 1 │
│ Audio │ Default │ Default
│ 64 │
│ Audio │ Song │ Default
│ 17 │
│ Audio │ Voice │ Default
│ 1 │
│ AVAILABLE │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Backlink │ Default │ Default
│ 252 │
│ CBR │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Common Lisp │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ CSV │ Default │ Default
│ 11 │
│ DB-ID │ Default │ Default
│ 7 │
│ Directory │ Default │ Default
│ 70 │
│ DISEASE │ Default │ Default
│ 7 │
│ DJVU │ Default │ Default
│ 25 │
│ DOCX │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Emacs Lisp │ Default │ Default
│ 4 │
│ Emacs Lisp Hyperlink │ Default │ Default
│ 74 │
│ Enriched │ Default │ Enriched
│ 4 │
│ EPUB │ Default │ Default
│ 120 │
│ EPUB │ Recipe │ Default
│ 1 │
│ File │ Default │ Default
│ 115 │
│ FOLLOW-UP │ Default │ Default
│ 67 │
│ GnuCash │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Gnumeric │ Spreadsheet │ Default
│ 4 │
│ HTML Hyperdocument │ Default │ Default
│ 26 │
│ HyperScope ID │ Default │ Default
│ 13 │
│ Image │ Default │ Default
│ 472 │
│ Image │ Food │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Image │ Recipe │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Image │ Signature │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Info Node │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Instruction │ Default │ Default
│ 8 │
│ Instruction │ E-mail Snippet │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Kotl (Hyperbole Outline) │ Default │ Kotl
│ 1 │
│ Launch Program │ Default │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Local File │ Default │ Default
│ 25 │
│ Maff │ Default │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Markdown │ Default │ Markdown
│ 4018 │
│ Markdown │ Poem │ Markdown
│ 5 │
│ Markdown │ Default │ Org
│ 1 │
│ Markdown │ Cognition │ Markdown
│ 1 │
│ Markdown (Pandoc, espresso) │ Default │ Markdown (Pandoc,
espresso) │ 54 │
│ Mbox │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Media │ Default │ Default
│ 13 │
│ Media │ Song │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Meeting │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Message-ID │ Default │ Default
│ 8 │
│ Mobi │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Mount Point │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ MPV play video at exact time │ Default │ Default
│ 24 │
│ Note │ Default │ Default
│ 6299 │
│ Note │ Dev-T │ Default
│ 285 │
│ Note │ Report │ Default
│ 69 │
│ Note │ Poem │ Default
│ 25 │
│ Note │ Call │ Default
│ 12 │
│ Note │ Request for quotation │ Default
│ 10 │
│ Note │ Request For Proposal │ Default
│ 7 │
│ Note │ Cognition │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Note │ Quotation │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Note │ Question │ Default
│ 5 │
│ Note │ E-mail Snippet │ Default
│ 5 │
│ Note │ Offer │ Default
│ 4 │
│ Note │ Phone │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Partnership Offer │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Progress │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Proposal │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Recipe │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Template │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Warning │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Note │ Pricing │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Note │ Dream │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Note │ Online Account │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Note │ Instructions │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Ethics Report │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ PDF │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Default │ Markdown
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Contact Information │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Meeting │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Financial Subject │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Note │ Event │ Default
│ 1 │
│ ODS │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ ODT │ Default │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Opportunity │ Default │ Default
│ 37 │
│ Org │ Default │ Org
│ 31 │
│ Org Heading │ Default │ Org Heading
│ 2 │
│ Page in physical book │ Training │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ Default │ Default
│ 2626 │
│ PDF │ Book │ Default
│ 7 │
│ PDF │ Quotation │ Default
│ 3 │
│ PDF │ Report │ Default
│ 2 │
│ PDF │ Default │ Asciidoctor PDF
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ Agreement │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ PDF │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ Recipe │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ Business Profile │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF │ Contract │ Default
│ 1 │
│ PDF by Page Nr. │ Default │ Default
│ 14475 │
│ PostgreSQL │ Default │ Default
│ 19 │
│ PostgreSQL │ Report │ Default
│ 6 │
│ QUOTATION │ Default │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Quote │ Default │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Scheme │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Self │ Default │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Set ➾ │ Default │ Default
│ 1756 │
│ Set ➾ │ Financial Subject │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Set ➾ │ Follow-up │ Default
│ 2 │
│ Set ➾ │ Recipe │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Shell Command │ Default │ Default
│ 3 │
│ Shell Script │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ SUCCESS │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Default │ Default
│ 248 │
│ Task │ Call │ Default
│ 39 │
│ Task │ Travel │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Training │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Dev-T │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Pay │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Practical Skill │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Task │ Report │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Text │ E-mail Signature │ Default
│ 8 │
│ Text │ E-mail Snippet │ Default
│ 6 │
│ Text │ Default │ Markdown
│ 2 │
│ Text │ Signature │ Markdown
│ 1 │
│ txt2tags │ Default │ txt2tags
│ 1 │
│ URL for Image │ Default │ Default
│ 25 │
│ Video │ Default │ Default
│ 162 │
│ Video │ Song │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WRS Unprocessed Page │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Default │ Default
│ 10324 │
│ WWW │ PDF │ Default
│ 78 │
│ WWW │ Recipe │ Default
│ 20 │
│ WWW │ Patent │ Default
│ 17 │
│ WWW │ Video │ Default
│ 4 │
│ WWW │ Song │ Default
│ 3 │
│ WWW │ Article │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Link to Map │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Drug Information │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Spreadsheet │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Task │ Default
│ 1 │
│ WWW │ Partnership Offer │ Default
│ 1 │
│ XCF │ Default │ Default
│ 1 │
│ Xournalpp │ Default │ Default
│ 3 │
│ YouTube Video │ Default │ Default
│ 231 │
│ YouTube Video │ Recipe │ Default
│ 1 │
│ YouTube Video at exact time │ Default │ Default
│ 61 │
└──────────────────────────────┴───────────────────────┴─────────────────────────────┴───────┘
> If you want schools & businesses to use free software, set up a
> website that recommends one OS and has a quick-install bundle of
> common student/business software.
Such websites already exist, installations are there, I have pointed
out to free software distributions. There is no problem to read and
follow up simple instructions.
If I want a school or business to use free software, then I sell the
idea to director, and then all computers get installed free OS, and
that is something done by technical person.
And if you think that somebody in school or business should be able to
learn how to install free OS -- such installations and websites are
all over Internet.
You may claim they are not available, but they are there. All
GNU/Linux distributions have pointers to installations.
> (PortableApps.com has a terrific setup for this, but afiak it's
> Windows-only.) Set up a forum or (sigh) Discord for questions, and
> be supportive to clueless people who are trying out what they think
> is a new fad. Find volunteers who are happy to answer endless
> beginner questions about how the command line works and explain
> basic vocabulary, over and over. (There can be a FAQ page. Very few
> beginners will read it, and some of the answers are likely to be too
> technical or too long or both. And if the point is converting people
> to free software, "go away and come back when you understand better"
> is not going to work.) Offer bundle deals with tech support for
> small businesses that want to convert their whole office to free
> software. Or to schools that want to equip all their students with
> Linux laptops. Offer to teach online classes to high school
> students, to explain how computers work--because we've reached a
> point where millions of people have no idea how "saving a file"
> works.
You are right, and that is done on numerous mailing lists, forums,
IRC -- I just do not relate to all that to be so negative how you
portray it.
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
- Re: Please start a new thread for the "specific project proposal", (continued)
- Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Jean Louis, 2022/05/18
- Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Thomas Lord, 2022/05/19
- Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Jean Louis, 2022/05/23
- Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Thomas Lord, 2022/05/24
- Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Lars Noodén, 2022/05/13
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Erica Frank, 2022/05/13
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Lars Noodén, 2022/05/13
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?),
Jean Louis <=
- Message not available
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Jean Louis, 2022/05/22
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Yasuaki Kudo, 2022/05/22
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), Lori Nagel, 2022/05/24
- Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?), yasu, 2022/05/26
- Re: Software Freedom in education ..., Akira Urushibata, 2022/05/29
- Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Jean Louis, 2022/05/18
Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?, Akira Urushibata, 2022/05/05