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[Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom
From: |
C Y |
Subject: |
[Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom |
Date: |
Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:55:15 -0800 (PST) |
<legal issue responses moved to axiom-legal>
--- Bill Page <address@hidden> wrote:
> On February 13, 2006 6:14 PM C Y wrote:
> >...
> > However, based on your comments below, I would suggest
> > the following steps might be immediately useful:
> >
> > a) Post the downloads for aldor on the Axiom site (I still can't
> > get through to aldor.org :-( and the site is slower now) - I think
> > this is allowed under the license no problem.
>
> I don't know what is happening with the aldor.org server. Some days
> I can access it and other days not. Is this a good omen or a bad one?
> Is it further motivation to proceed with distributing Aldor as part
> of Axiom?
Well, at least a mirror would be good - it's a bit hard to test
Aldor+Axiom without downloading Aldor ;-).
> I think you can still get an older (v1.0.1) Windows version of Aldor
> here:
>
> http://www.orcca.on.ca/~ldragan/aldor/Windows_versions_of_Aldor.html
Ah, Windows hadn't occured to me. Ugh.
> Here is the version of Aldor we are running the axiom-developer.org
> server:
>
> http://wiki.axiom-developer.org/public/aldor-linux-i386-v1.0.2.bin
Great! Thanks!
> http://www.orcca.on.ca/~ldragan/aldor
>
> refers to a new version v1.0.3rc1 (release candidate 1) of Aldor but
> the link is incorrect. The correct link is:
>
> http://www.orcca.on.ca/~ldragan/aldor/aldor-linux-v3-1.0.3rc1.tar.gz
>
> The dates on the files are 2004-10-30. I have not tried this version
> yet.
Hmm. Do we know what was being fixed/updated?
> If you need help with the installation, just let me know.
I'll give the instructions a read and see how I do - I have patch47 on
my home machine now so I'll be doing a general Axiom upgrade pretty
quick - the main question is probably whether my jdk is new enough.
> > b) Let's incorporate aldor into the main Axiom now - if it is firm
> > we will be using Aldor (and based on my recollection everyone is in
> > agreement Aldor is the way forward over SPAD) lets not wait for the
> > legal stuff to finalize - that could take many more months. We
> > could at least do the following:
> >
> > i) Work out how the Aldor compiler and the lisp structure of
> > Axiom should work together, and make that the default setup.
>
> This was done long ago at IBM. Peter Broadbery has provided patches
> for the open source version of Axiom to support Aldor. Tim has
> incorporated all of these patches into the more recent version of
> the Axiom distribution except the actual build script that creates
> the libaldor library. This is available from the Axiom Wiki website:
>
> http://wiki.axiom-developer.org/AldorForAxiom
Ah! OK, I didn't pick up on the fact things were so far along. Cool!
> > I know the BOOT vs. Lisp vs. Aldor debate could go on, and
> > may yet, but for now let's go with Tim's Lisp work and the
> > current Aldor.org compiler. I don't (think) those issues
> > will depend on having the compiler source code - am I wrong?
>
> Hmmm... well it's not open source if we don't distribute the source
> code, is it? :)
Very true. And me being the open source fanatic too ;-).
> But we could at least distribute Axiom with a fully functioning
> build option to integrate with a previously installed binary
> version of Aldor.
That makes more sense.
> > I think I recall it being said that the interpreter needed to
> > be educated about Aldor, for example?
>
> No, this works now.
Wow! Nice.
> > Does that make sense, or is it too risky? I think that's more or
> > less what's been going on of late anyway, but it might help to make
> > it an "official" project goal so people can be confident they
> > aren't working at cross-purposes with the main Axiom project.
>
> I don't think it is risky but I doubt we will convince many people
> until they see downloadable Aldor source code.
True. I wouldn't be convinced either, ordinarily. But since it is
pretty clear nothing significant is going to happen with SPAD unless we
have no alternative, I figure we might as well make some progress on
the areas we do have current access to.
> > ...
> > OK. On that basis, do my earlier suggestions make sense?
>
> I think we can complete the integration of the Aldor interface
> build into the Axiom distribution. One sticky point is that
> currently this requires the installation of the Sun Java
> development system.
Hmm. OK. I suppose GCJ isn't up to the job yet?
> Not everyone might want to do this just to
> install Axiom + Aldor. But I rather think we should go ahead
> with it anyway for now and just make sure that Java is only
> required if the user chooses to build the Aldor interface.
Makes sense.
> > Out of curiosity, does anybody know what the language of the
> > Aldor compiler is?
>
> Aldor is written in "C" and Aldor.
OK. Is it like Axiom was, needing a running Aldor to compile a new
Aldor?
> > IIRC it can target a couple different languages for compiler
> > output(?) but I don't recall what language it's actually
> > written in.
>
> Aldor can generate code that runs with a stand alone run time
> environment written in "C" or it can generate Lisp. When Aldor
> is used within Axiom it generates Lisp that is compiled by GCL
> the same way that the output of the SPAD compiler is compiled.
Nice.
> > Hmm. OK, so you suggest we first get Axiom as it stands over to
> > Aldor and then proceed with any low level design changes, if any
> > are warranted?
>
> Yes. Initially only the Axiom library code written in SPAD would
> be converted to Aldor. The rest of Axiom would remain the same.
Makes sense. The Linus Torvalds approach - incremental change.
> > ...
> > I know Axiom is supposed to be founded on category theory and/or
> > set theory, but does anybody know where the real "core" of that
> > logic resides?
>
> That is related to discussion in the earlier thread about the
> nature of the SubDomain construction. At least some of this
> "logic" resides in the SPAD compiler itself. That could
> potentially be a problem in the effort to convert the Axiom
> library to Aldor since Aldor does not implement this "logic"
> in the same way.
OK.
> BTW, I do not think that it would be correct to say that Axiom
> is founded on category theory as such. The use of the word
> category in Axiom is quite different. But still in many ways
> Axiom is compatible with many of the ideas of modern category
> theory.
>
> It is more correct to say that Axiom is founded on set theory
> but only is a rather loose way.
Hmm. That could make for some challenging documentation work.
> > I always figured that was the most fundamental mathematical
> > part of the code, but maybe I'm wrong.
>
> Maybe we could agree that it is a kind of exaggeration? :)
Well, darn ;-).
> > I was kinda hoping Axiom could serve as a modern, computerized
> > Principia Mathematica++. (Interestingly, if a first edition is
> > available, might it be out of copyright? Perhaps we could
> > incorporate the Principica Mathematica itself, or a variation,
> > as a literate document!)
>
> Sometimes your suggestions are quite "nuts" - do you know that? ;)
But of course! But then, my vision of Axiom always was rather
grandiose. I think things like the QED manifesto sound like good
ideas, so I probably am a bit nuts ;-)
> > OK. I take it the compiler itself doesn't contain the definitions
> > of any of the algebraic types or constructs?
>
> You mean the SPAD compiler? Yes there are some but all of the hard
> work has already been done in the design of Aldor. There are some
> constructs that don't translate. But (maybe) these are not important
> to the goal of converting (most of) the existing Axiom library to
> Aldor. (See related thread op cit.)
Will do.
Cheers,
CY
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- RE: [Axiom-developer] non extending category, (continued)
- RE: [Axiom-developer] non extending category, Bill Page, 2006/02/12
- Re: [Axiom-developer] non extending category, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] What is SubDomain (was: non extending category), Bill Page, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] Re: What is SubDomain, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] Aldor and Axiom (was Re: What is SubDomain), C Y, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom (was Re: What is SubDomain), Bill Page, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom, C Y, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom, Bill Page, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom, C Y, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom, Bill Page, 2006/02/13
- [Axiom-developer] RE: Aldor and Axiom,
C Y <=
- [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/14
- [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/14
- [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, C Y, 2006/02/14
- [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/14
- [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, C Y, 2006/02/14
- Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, root, 2006/02/14
- Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, C Y, 2006/02/14
- Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/15
- Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Martin Rubey, 2006/02/15
- Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Aldor and Axiom, Ralf Hemmecke, 2006/02/15