Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove

[Daniel Colascione]

On June 26, 2024 9:53:20 AM EDT, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org> writes:
>
>> On June 26, 2024 7:23:38 AM EDT, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>>> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
>>>> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>,  dancol@dancol.org,  acm@muc.de,
>>>>   stefankangas@gmail.com,  monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:26:47 +0100
>>>> 
>>>> 1.
>>>> I also find that C-x 4 is indeed logical, which makes it easier to remember
>>>> 
>>>> 2.
>>>> C-x 4 .. works on the terminal/console.  This is important for
>>>> preserving functionality of Emacs.
>>>
>>>I still hope that someone will tell what is exactly the request here,
>>>given that windmove-mode is on by default and its commands are
>>>autoloaded.
>>
>> To be clear, my proposal is to bind C-x 4 <arrow> in the default
>> global keymap to the corresponding directional windmove commands and
>> to bind the shifted versions of these keys to the state swapping
>> versions of these movement commands. IOW, in emacs -Q, C-x 4 LEFT
>> should move left.
>
>C-x 4 is not for window management commands, but for commands that
>influence which window the results of a future command are to be
>displayed in, and it has been so for a substantial period, so that users
>won't bat an eyelid before creating bindings keeping to this pattern.


You're overthinking this. C-x 4 is for stuff relating to windows. Of course 
that's the right place to put window movement commands. There's no other 
logical place.

>As such, it is perfectly logical to bind, say, ffap-other-window, in
>this keymap, but not every command that marginally relates to window
>management.

You can choose to make that binding. I don't think it's a good default. Adding 
a reasonable default does not hurt you.


>
>Windmove is not so important as ffap, to judge by the number of

Ffap is a fringe feature. Window movement is fundamental to the whole system.

>instances of each in the archives of help-gnu-emacs, and therefore
>default keybindings for its commands can only be less justified.  If
>they were, there could also easily be a place for them far more rational
>and less disruptive than C-x 4.  Extending the domain of existing
>keymaps is, whatever you think, a source of variance between the
>expectations of old and new users, and deprives users of room for custom

Again, you're making a general argument against adding any new bindings 
whatsoever. I don't think that's a good thing. The very same argument would 
have applied to the vc and project default bindings.

>keybindings, again, since they experience a natural reluctance to
>contradict the judgement of their superiors, expressed in the defaults

So now we're going from keybindings to sociology? K.

>they decide, so that the obligation of exercising this privilege wisely
>and sparingly devolves on _ourselves_, who should constantly be at pains
>to earn and deserve this respect.  With all due respect, you are just
>one user, and though many have concurred with your choice, yet none of
>them have previously created the same set of bindings as yours. 

Yes they have. Check the thread. In fact, it was Stefan who resurrected the 
thread in the first place.

> This
>implies that the question of establishing default bindings for Windmove,
>and more so your preferences for these bindings, was profoundly
>uninteresting to everyone but yourself, and should not even have been
>raised until it had attracted some more interest.
>
>So perhaps you might understand why it is upsetting to see our arguments
>deflected with some vague dismissal of "general embargoes", or oratory

You are, in fact, though ,making a general argument, then suggesting it applies 
only to this one matter. That's called "special pleading" and is a structurally 
invalid kind of discourse.

>against "stasis", and appeals to such absolutely irrelevant matters as
>Doom Emacs, or because it amounts to declaring that "users ought never
>to rebind keys at all."  

I think Doom Emacs and Spacemacs are in bounds. They exist because core Emacs 
has been insufficiently responsive to needs of real world users, and this 
thread is this problem in microcosm.

> Reverting to these general proclamations of
>triumph gives the impression of being disinterested in constructive
>communication and trying to understand your opponents' positions, and
>being rather more inclined to simply heckle opponents into silence if
>agreement is impossible.  Seriously, ask yourself this simple question,
>if the existence of default keybindings are truly no deterrent to
>customization, why is cua-mode necessary for the majority of its users,
>who simply need C-z rebound to undo and C-x to kill-region?  And why
>will the introduction of new keybindings not produce new habits in

There is a difference between changing an existing binding (e.g. C-z) and 
installing a new binding where none currently exists. Merging the two scenarios 
doesn't lead the conversation in a good place.