Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US

[Pierce T . Wetter III]

On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:15 AM, nadim wrote:

> On Tuesday 20 July 2004 00:52, Pierce T.Wetter III wrote:
>
> Lots of crap about Irak cut off. Piece, If I ever get to be a tyran, 
> I'd
> like you to handle my foreign politics, you ARE good. I'like very much 
> the
> humanist grand father story, almost made me cry. It's a pity I don't 
> have
> time (and I choose not to) to answer all your mails.
>
> > > This impenetrable, self-centered, borderline crazy attitude Americans
> > > have toward the use of deadly force is what sometimes scares their
> > > friends even more than their enemies.
> >
> >    Too peaceful a history most of us think. Having not experienced the
> > horrors so much of war, perhaps it gets glorified. However, we're not
> > really as bloodthirsty as I probably implied either, I was trying to
> > explain the depths of our anger, not the breadth.
>
> About "Too peaceful a history":
>
> What the .......!!!!!?§§§ Is that a joke?

 How about "haven't been invaded enough?" is that more clear? Most of 
the
world has had the horror of armies marching across their territory.
Outside of the Civil War, America hasn't experienced that, and we still
endlessly analyze the Civil War, and are just now starting to 
understand it.

 So when people from other countries tell us that we are too cavalier 
about
the use of deadly force, they're probably right, and that's the reason 
(we think).
Perhaps you have a different theory for why that is, that somehow we're
all Rambos or that Bush is this evil dictator, but the world was saying 
this
about us long before Rambo or Bush.


> About Bloodthirsty:
>
> You didn't answer my request for you to count bombs, victims, political
> maneuvers to hols dictatures in place, the very disgusting fact that 
> you
> act where you want and close the your eyes when it best fits you. What
> hurst most is that I realy believe tha americans are not more 
> bloodthursty
> than any other (but no less unfortunately) but please put some order in
> you judgement and try to acknowledge the facts.

 I didn't say we weren't as bloodthirsty as others, I merely said
we weren't has bloodthirsty as to actually nuke an innocent population 
which
is what I'd implied before. I can say positive things about the US 
without
that being a negative to other countries.

 We did a lot of questionable things in the Cold War, I'm not going to 
dispute
that. One of the things Bush has tried to do in some cases is put a 
stop to that now that the Cold War is over. In American terms, move 
from a Cold War foreign policy back to a Wilsonian. How successful that 
will be I don't know, as the State
Department has lots of people that think its ok to have "our" dictator, 
even after
9/11, Iraq, etc.

Unfortunately, the war on terror seems to have these conflicting goals. 
We want
cooperation from a number of nations who also have governments we'd 
like to
see more free. (Saudi Arabia being one of them, Pakistan another). So 
we want the Saudi's to help us with terrorism, while liberalizing their 
country...and we've been pushing more on the former then the latter.

 That bugs me. I see terrorism as a starfish. Al Queda, Al-Whatever, 
are all
limbs of the starfish. If you cut them off, they'll just grow back, or 
even
grow a whole new starfish. To wipe out terrorism, you have to kill the 
head,
and the head in this case is the widespread tyranny of the arab world. 
Some
of that is blowback from the Cold War, some of that is the resource 
curse (countries
rich in resources tend to become dominate by a few elite, happens to 
developed countries too), some of that is the fault of the Soviets, and 
some of that is a result of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the 
greed of Europe after then end of
WWI. There's enough blame to go around.

 So I see the challenge for American foreign policy is that it needs to 
make
the minimum short term promises to evil dictators that let us keep our
population safe, while working on our long term goal of democracy for
everyone, everywhere.


> About the depth:
>
> So you get angry because 3000 people die because of a sick bastard, 
> you're
> ready to kill everybody just after. Fine, it's very understandable. So 
> you
> think Bush didn't over react just after? I agree, I was even surprised 
> he
> didn't act more stupid than he did. But let put the cards on the table.
> How many civilians have been killed in Afganistan and Irak since?

 Iraq: http://civilians.info/iraq/  has 2081 records. (Link from an 
Iraqi
blogger. )

 Does it matter that Saddam was killing 10,000 a month? I don't know. I 
don't
think the stand that someone else was more evil then you excuses your 
own
perfidy. There are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that 
killing is
bad.

However, inaction can also be morally wrong too.


>  Are we
> getting the same history going on again?

 I hope not. I really hope that the Terror War is better run then the
Cold War, and I wish we didn't have any war at all. Then so does
everyone on the planet. Perhaps I'll see that in my lifetime as more
countries become democratic.

> just remembering the US
> casualties in Vietnam but none of the 5 millions people you 
> slaughtered?
> How many people die because of  the US right now? what are 3000 people
> compared to hiroshima? or don't they count because they were 
> foreigners?
> Too peacfull history? was it 20 or 25 millions indians you killed? in 
> any
> case that's twice as much as Hitler. Nice score indeed.

 You want me to tell you we've been innocent? I'm not going to do that.

 I'm not going to apologize for our actions during the Cold War either.

> What I believe is that you belicous depth is more than your human 
> depth.

  What I mean about breadth vs. depth is that in the depth of our soul 
there
were people of the "nuke em all" mindset. In the breadth of our soul, 
there
were people of the "we deserved it" mindset.

> 5 mn after the bombing of 9/11 no one was working anymore at my 
> workplace.
> No one liked it but I'd lie if I say all were surprised. We were 
> actually
> surprised it didn happend before (If you ask me if the terrorist have 
> won,
> I'd say yes, you're shiting you pants and you are paying for it as 
> much as
> you make others pay for it). Anyway, something struck me. I saw on TV a
> black guy (a soldier) crying and saying: "I want to go there, yes let 
> me
> go there" that was to war of course. As much as I want to respect his
> feelings (I guess that they are as genuine as palestinians, columbian 
> or
> israeli feeling) but I must say what a F.. Jerk. Sure it looks very
> patriotic (patriotic, what a very ugly worrd) but what's the meaning of
> all you demence? Why is the US involved in war, massacres, and ugly
> political plots? Why can't you show your nice face? affraid of looking
> weak? rest assured that your "force" only look as weakness to the rest 
> of
> the world.

  Because the world keeps trying to get us involved. US foreign policy
is either so isolationist you could scream, or so bellicose you have to.
> I was in the states a few years ago, I wanted to see by myself. 
> Believe it
> or not, I actually liked it (not to the point of moving there). It 
> realy
> twists my gusts with despear to like the people of you country and be
> disgusted by the acts of your representents (your acts since you are 
> _the_
> democracy).
>
> Want to make a diffrence in the world? Want peace everywhere? Show you 
> have
> a heart instead for a bunch of macho idiots always ready to jump the 
> first
> small country around. Want the US to be loved as much outside the US 
> as it
> is inside? Show some force of character.

  Like most non USians, you seem to think that we're of one mind and 
voice,
and that you can get the good instead of the bad. It doesn't work that 
way.
If you've been to the US, you've seen the chaos and having the US 
involved
in the world means we bring that chaos to you.

 So you get special forces sneaking into Baghdad, and Sean Penn flying 
there
as a tourist, you get soldiers abusing prisioners and other americans 
from
Human Rights Watch reporting them. Everything we do is kind of wildly 
chaotic.
Its part of the weirdness of America, its part of our greatness too.

 (And just to head you off, I can say America is great without implying 
that
your country isn't. I'm not one of those americans who thinks that other
countries have the slogan "we're number 2". All citizens like their 
country
best it seems...)

> Happy voting. Nadim.

 Joke: Yeah, so the Democrats were so upset about having the country 
ruled by a
rich white guy that they found two richer, whiter guys to run against 
him.

 Pierce